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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-11-11

---Logopened Fri Nov 11 00:00:14 2011
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02:00<@Terkhen>good morning
02:13<@planetmaker>moin
02:21<@peter1138>michi_cc, ah, so i really was drawing too much :D
02:22<@peter1138>yes, it's perfect now
02:22<@peter1138>right
02:22<@peter1138>only thing is
02:23<@peter1138>i need some 32bpp graphics to test with
02:23<@peter1138>are there any? ;)
02:25<@planetmaker>what kind of 32bpp?
02:27-!-andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd
02:35<@peter1138>planetmaker, i suppose whatever there is?
02:35<@planetmaker>ez or normal?
02:36<@planetmaker>or both. I have a few normal 32bpp graphics here. which provide a few ground tiles, maybe a few houses. not sure anymore
02:36<@planetmaker>and I can never remember the download links... I guess I got it off jupix server
02:36<@peter1138>both would be good for testing
02:36<@Yexo>peter1138: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=47121&start=0
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02:38<@peter1138>cool cool
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02:40<@peter1138>this patch is now 48KB :(
02:41<@peter1138>fixing the sprites in the gui took 10KB
02:42<andythenorth>when do you people sleep? :P
02:42<andythenorth>you don't even have children to blame
02:43<@peter1138>i just had ~6 hours
02:44<andythenorth>enough for margaret thatcher
02:45<@peter1138>you don't understand, this is ez for all blitters ;)
02:45<@peter1138>not only that, but there's no changes to any blitter
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02:46<@planetmaker>good good :-)
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02:54<@Terkhen>:)
02:55<@peter1138>question is, is the concept sound?
02:58<murr4y>or is it a concert sound
03:01<@peter1138>oh no
03:01<@peter1138>16x zoom in doesn't work!
03:02<@peter1138>it's also really slow
03:05<@planetmaker>hehe :-)
03:12<@peter1138>just loading sprites causes judders :)
03:12<@peter1138>once loaded it's fine, mind you
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03:16<@planetmaker>he :-) Cache more :-P
03:16<@planetmaker>1GB sprite cache ;-)
03:16<@peter1138>i was using 512MB
03:16<@peter1138>the cache is fine, but sprites are loaded on demand
03:16<@peter1138>and that takes time with 16x
03:16<@peter1138>it's fine with 4x :)
03:18<@planetmaker>:-)
03:19<andythenorth>uh oh
03:19<andythenorth>I'm about to propose something insane
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03:20<andythenorth>mask out some of the class bits, making them unavailable for use
03:20<andythenorth>i.e. adding *fewer* features for once, instead of more
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03:30<andythenorth>leaving cargo class bits reserved and available for future use is a bit of an unexploded bomb as far as compatibility goes
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03:31<andythenorth>well-meaning idiot like me comes along and invents new classes
03:31<Celestar>\o morning
03:31<Celestar>peter1138: where was that thing that needed AddSortableSpriteToDraw for landscape?
03:32<andythenorth>then my favourite vehicle set author adds support, so I think all is well
03:32<Celestar>peter1138: is it in AddTileSpriteToDraw?
03:32<andythenorth>but due to combination of refittable and exclude props, a lot of vehicle sets now don't support my cargo :P
03:32<andythenorth>(in theory)
03:33<andythenorth>classes should be minimal, stable, and the number of classes should not be extensible
03:33<andythenorth>that's not wholly true right now
03:34<andythenorth>relying on people to do the right thing causes this discussion to occur once every n years :P
03:35<@peter1138>Celestar, yeah, make it call AddSortable... instead
03:36<Celestar>peter1138: attempting ..
03:37<@peter1138>Celestar, as a lazy optimisation, anything with z <= 8 can be done as normal, i think
03:41<Celestar>peter1138: sounds .. premature :D
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03:53<@peter1138>yup :)
03:54<@peter1138>heh, ff is slower when fully zoomed in
03:55<@peter1138>the advantage of less updated tiles to draw is outweighed by the larger sprite sizes
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03:57<@peter1138>http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/ez7.png
03:57<@peter1138>o_O
03:57<@peter1138>appears to be a glitch :(
03:58<@planetmaker>yes, they drive on the wrong side :-P
03:59<@peter1138>ahh, ViewportAddVehicles needs some scaling, i guess
04:02<Celestar>peter1138: scaling?
04:02<Celestar>ah lol.
04:02<Celestar>hm.
04:02<@peter1138>one of the double-deckers :)
04:02<Celestar>somehow vehicles are drawn wrongish now
04:02<@peter1138>oh?
04:03<Celestar>AddSortableSpriteToDraw
04:03<Celestar>what's the values for w, h, and dz :P
04:03<Celestar>16, 16, 1?
04:03<@peter1138>16 16 0
04:03<Celestar>aaaaah
04:04<Celestar>obiwan
04:06<Celestar>that gives some clipping errors when drawing rail tiles
04:09<Celestar>..
04:09<Celestar>because that still uses DrawGroundSpriteAt
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04:29<@peter1138>yeah, you probably need to fix that too :)
04:30*andythenorth wonders if just one class property is enough to provide fallbacks: exclude
04:31<andythenorth>if (! class in mask) { allow refit }
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04:32<andythenorth>then the fewer classes set by cargo author, the more likely cargo will be transported
04:33<@peter1138>grfv8: remove classes and make everything explicit by label
04:33<andythenorth>it's a nice option
04:33<@planetmaker>andythenorth: solid stuff and liquid stuff?
04:34<andythenorth>planetmaker: really, I think that's the way forward
04:34<andythenorth>this isn't satire or trolling
04:34<@planetmaker>as they're mutually exclusive we can abolish classes and make liquid a simple flag
04:34<andythenorth>it doesn't need to be quite so brutal
04:34<andythenorth>bulk, piece, liquid are adequate
04:35<andythenorth>we don't have this crap with industry types
04:35<@peter1138>bulk, piece & liquid, yes
04:35<Celestar>peter1138: it's getting worse :D
04:35<andythenorth>extractive, organic, processing, black hole, we don't have n different kinds for industries
04:35<@peter1138>Celestar :(
04:35<andythenorth>and if we added new ones we'd piss off all the AI authors
04:36<Celestar>peter1138: I'm afraid it's not a simple fix for cliffs.
04:36<andythenorth>that was bad maths, we do have n different kinds, but the value of n is known :P
04:36<@peter1138>probably not. it was only an idea for a hack anyway :S
04:36<Celestar>if I only knew more about our drawing shit :D
04:36<@peter1138>well
04:37<@peter1138>i happen to have just delved through it all :p
04:37<Celestar>haha :D
04:37*peter1138 ponders splitting this EZ patch up
04:37<Celestar>peter1138: the problem now are rail sprites ...
04:37<andythenorth>just do two bytes: pax, mail, 'express' are all set by the bitmask for the 'express' byte; bulk, piece, liquid are set by the bitmask for the 'freight' byte
04:37<andythenorth>done
04:38<andythenorth>make it NOT
04:38<Celestar>peter1138: http://www.dropmocks.com/mh2M1 see the monorail on the left for example
04:38<andythenorth>unless I choose to exclude xyz, my vehicle now supports all cargos this way
04:39<@peter1138>dropmocks is so slow :(
04:39<@peter1138>aye, that's broken :)
04:40<Celestar>weird dropmocks is damn fast for me :P
04:40<@peter1138>hmm, wonder if it's privoxy doing shit then
04:41<andythenorth>dropmocks is middlingly slow for me
04:41<Celestar>andythenorth: what browser?
04:41<@peter1138>nope, not privoxy
04:41<@peter1138>it just spends ages on Loading... ... ...
04:41<Celestar>are you using HTML5?
04:42<@peter1138>erm
04:42<@peter1138>i'm using chrome
04:42<Celestar>so it should :P
04:42<andythenorth>Celestar: safari (webkit)
04:42*Celestar goes trying it in chrome
04:42<Celestar>took 4 seconds for me in chrome
04:42<Celestar>the whole image.
04:43<andythenorth>planetmaker: we could force the issue a little by only defining minimal classes in FIRS. I half-think MB might agree about it, maybe ge*rge also
04:43<Celestar>peter1138: the question is .. what exactly did I break :D
04:44<@planetmaker>andythenorth: I don't think there's *the* solution
04:44<@planetmaker>The only thing we really can do is to really explain the existing classes just fine
04:44<@planetmaker>with a exact guide on how to use them
04:44<@planetmaker>and maybe declare a few deprecated
04:44<@planetmaker>And the pro of this is: nothing else than documentation needs changes
04:45<@planetmaker>I might have stomach ache about changing FIRS cargo classes. But that might be feasible as there's probably not yet much support for them
04:45<@planetmaker>only terkhen and myself will swear about that.
04:45<@planetmaker>and you
04:46<@planetmaker>yourself
04:46<@planetmaker>so that'd probably be fine
04:46<@peter1138>eddi seemed rather fixated on making classes the be-all and end-all though
04:46<@peter1138>(32bpp-anim ez!)
04:46<@planetmaker>I still don't see the big difference the suggestions make. Except giving a backward ache
04:46<andythenorth>planetmaker: we don't actually set that many classes at >8
04:47<@planetmaker>*backward compatibility
04:47<andythenorth>planetmaker: with the current system, it's way too easy to have it blow up in your face
04:47<@planetmaker>The suggestion certainly is worth IFF we would design it from scratch. But we can't
04:47<andythenorth>the more classes you set, the more likely you are to get an exception due to AND NOT
04:47<@planetmaker>andythenorth: only if cargos and vehicles handle it wrong
04:47<@planetmaker>which they can also with any new system
04:48<andythenorth>but the requirement is to set as many classes as possible
04:48<andythenorth>to enable vehicle set authors to do precise support with classes, this is Eddi's point
04:48<@planetmaker>adding one or two additional properties which define refit or disallow refit by label don't break classes
04:49<andythenorth>I dislike the inbuilt contradiction in the current system. "Please set as many classes as possible, but that is likely to cause your cargo to not be refittable"
04:49<andythenorth>seems a bit dumb tbh
04:49<@planetmaker>andythenorth: that contradiction is not inbuilt into the current system
04:49<@planetmaker>it's only the usage
04:49<@planetmaker>something which explanation / documentation can fix
04:50<andythenorth>true about the usage
04:50<andythenorth>but explaining it / documenting doesn't solve it, it's just the same conversation every time new authors turn up who missed the last 6 days of fun
04:51<andythenorth>I guess I'd like to make it go away :)
04:51<Celestar>peter1138: http://www.dropmocks.com/mh3kB
04:51<Celestar>it is slightly better .. but..
04:51<andythenorth>I hope that refusing to use classes >8 in FIRS would not break too much
04:54<andythenorth>I can forsee myself being MB in 6 years time, pasting old discussions into the forums :P
04:54<Celestar>can you do a better DBSet? :D
04:54<@peter1138>how can i view that image without scaling?
04:54<andythenorth>is DBSet good? I never used it. It looks nice in the screenshots
04:55<Celestar>peter1138: good question
04:55<Celestar>lemme upload a cropped version
04:55<@peter1138>heh
04:55<andythenorth>Celestar: \o/ (screenshot)
04:55<@peter1138>andythenorth, well, it's a little dated
04:55<@peter1138>but it's good
04:55<@peter1138>it's also buggy
04:56<@peter1138>cos it relies on some vehicle properties being broken
04:56<@planetmaker>Celestar: have a look at CETS ;-)
04:56<Celestar>peter1138: same link, next image
04:56<Celestar>planetmaker: CETS?
04:56<@planetmaker>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/cets/nightlies/LATEST/
04:57<@planetmaker>or https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkXAVZqXTFQxdHM3UlpWM1hPZWpfeTlkdnZsMldjSkE&hl=en_US&authkey=CO2PmdYG#gid=0 <-- table
04:57<@planetmaker>central european trainset
04:57<andythenorth>Celestar: still \o/
04:57<andythenorth>the sharp edges on the part nearest camera would need some work
04:58<@peter1138>have you got 32bpp extra zoom sprites? :p
04:58<@planetmaker>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/cets <-- or there, project page
04:58<@planetmaker>peter1138: no
04:58<andythenorth>how I get to a broken down RV behind a cliff, I have no idea :P
04:58<@planetmaker>or not yet :-P
04:58<Celestar>planetmaker: very nice :)
04:58<@peter1138>andythenorth, slice the land
04:59<andythenorth>tilt the camera :P
04:59*Celestar tilts andythenorth
04:59<andythenorth>zoom until you're on the other side of the cliff :P
04:59*andythenorth tilts to work
04:59<andythenorth>if you could just make the class system *less* powerful and *less* flexible while I'm away, that would be dandy
04:59<andythenorth>:D
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05:00<Celestar>sometimes I hate the linker...
05:00<Celestar>undefined reference to `cos'
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05:02<Celestar>it'S the cosine you numbnut ...
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05:03<@peter1138>lol
05:03<@peter1138>the cursor used when dragging a vehicle is kinda... big :p
05:04<@peter1138>planetmaker, do any of the vehicles in the set have proper sprites?
05:04<@planetmaker>in CETS? Yes
05:04<@peter1138>which? :S
05:04<@planetmaker>Prussian vehicles should have. Or some of them
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05:05<@peter1138>i mean, i see purchase list sprites, but they're invisible on the viewport
05:05<@planetmaker>I didn't check too recently, tbh. Might currently be broken
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05:06<@peter1138>the sprites that are there look good though
05:07<@peter1138>the steamers look a bit toy-like somehow
05:07<@planetmaker>to really work, this set needs newgrf v8.
05:07<@planetmaker>it needs more than the 128 articulated vehicles available in v7
05:07<@peter1138>heh
05:07<@planetmaker>which are all already used there ;-)
05:07<@peter1138>so do it ;)
05:08<@planetmaker>will be. will be.
05:08<@planetmaker>But for that NML needs an update. And for that we need to first wrap - up NML 0.2
05:08<@planetmaker>or so
05:08<@planetmaker>maybe we should branch NML 0.2 already
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05:11<@peter1138>hmm, 13021 years
05:11<@peter1138>that game must be fun :p
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05:14<@peter1138>that was 11/11/11 11:11:11 for some people
05:14<Celestar>I don't understand why my linker doesn'T find "sin" and "cos" :P
05:14<@peter1138>-lm ?
05:14<@Terkhen>planetmaker: luckily we share a file for cargo definitions and all vehicles use those defines... other sets will have a harder time dealing with any big FIRS changes
05:14<Celestar>peter1138: it's there ..
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05:15<@Terkhen>I don't see the point for the changes, but honestly I have not been paying much attention to the discussion
05:16<Celestar>peter1138: that's what baffles me. Also if I write a simple test program, it works ..
05:19<@peter1138>planetmaker, ah, it's ez that's broken ;)_
05:19<Celestar>WTF.
05:19<@planetmaker>he
05:21<z-MaTRiX>hi :)
05:21<z-MaTRiX>i've bought a god of knives yesterday ;>
05:21<z-MaTRiX>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceramic_knife
05:21<z-MaTRiX>cuts apple including seeds like butter
05:23<Celestar>hm.
05:23<Celestar>two adjacent points of a tile can only have a difference of 1, right?
05:23<Celestar>and diagonals may or may not have 2.
05:24<z-MaTRiX>well actually they can have sqrt(2) or 1 difference
05:25<z-MaTRiX>if diagonal, its sqrt(2)
05:25<@peter1138>bah, vehicle glitches :(
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05:26<@peter1138>Celestar, yes +-1 for adjacent, and +-2 for opposite
05:26<Celestar>z-MaTRiX: what are you talking about?
05:26<@peter1138>something else :)
05:27<z-MaTRiX>i thought you were talking about distance on a 2d grid
05:27<z-MaTRiX>(like the gps function in openttd)
05:27<Celestar>no?
05:28<Celestar>who had that link of all the slope tiles?
05:28<@peter1138>it's in docs/ in your checkout
05:28<Celestar>ah
05:28<Celestar>good :D
05:30<@peter1138>z-MaTRiX, they seem expensive :p
05:31<z-MaTRiX>peter1138<< they are 10 times hard and sharp as the best steel knife, the black is 20 times ;>
05:31<z-MaTRiX>downside is, wou use it to pry, or it drops, it breaks
05:32<@peter1138>yay, glitches resolved
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05:36<@planetmaker>andythenorth: Let's use Eddi's suggestion (where's eddi?). I made a few adjustments... http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Cargo_redefinitions
05:37<@planetmaker>his suggestion doesn't mean to re-define classes really. Just to explain them better
05:37<@planetmaker>he suggests to adjust a few classes for existing cargos. Maybe
05:38<@peter1138>does CETS have a brake van?
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05:41<@planetmaker>dunno whether it has (yet)
05:41<andythenorth>planetmaker: eddi's suggestion is quite fine to me - although it relies on agreeing conventions about use, and it spirals off even more new classes
05:41<z-MaTRiX>s/wou/you
05:41<andythenorth>the work Eddi has done all makes sense
05:41<andythenorth>I just think it's solving the wrong problem :P
05:42<@planetmaker>is it?
05:42<Celestar>halftiles are giving me the creeps
05:42<@peter1138>https://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/ez8.png
05:43<@peter1138>erm
05:43<@peter1138>http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/ez8.png
05:43<@planetmaker>andythenorth: I saw your posting about intention. But... where does eddi's suggestion contradict that?
05:43-!-Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B738CE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
05:44<andythenorth>I see classes as a fallback for refitting. Eddi sees them as the default.
05:44<@peter1138>quick, hide!
05:44<andythenorth>other than that, the solution is fine
05:44<andythenorth>if this is the route we take, I won't gripe about it (unless I forget)
05:44<andythenorth>I would prefer a minimalist scheme, enforced by ottd code
05:45<@planetmaker>andythenorth: where's the difference between 'fallback' and 'default'?
05:45<Eddi|zuHause>... now that didn't work as i intended
05:45<@planetmaker>hi Eddi|zuHause
05:45<@planetmaker>I looked a bit extensive at your suggestion as in the wiki
05:46<andythenorth>planetmaker: it's about the order of refitting
05:46<andythenorth>order? Precedence? some word I don't know
05:46<@planetmaker>I didn't dare edit your user page, but made a copy: http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Cargo_redefinitions
05:46<@planetmaker>with a few changes to some labels
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05:46<@planetmaker>*classes for some labels
05:47<andythenorth>in Eddi's scheme, I think the goal is to be able to control refitting precisely without recourse to labels. You set classes first, and only use labels where the classes are somehow 'wrong'
05:47<andythenorth>in my scheme, you only get precise refitting with labels. If you don't use a label, the classes offer no warranty about precise refitting
05:47<andythenorth>in my scheme, if you want precision, you *have* to use the label
05:48<andythenorth>in Eddi's scheme, you rely on being able to set classes for precision
05:48<andythenorth>I think the latter is impossible.
05:48<andythenorth>Even more so whilst some class bits remain undefined
05:48<andythenorth>and available for use
05:49<andythenorth>if we locked the class bits now and said 'no more, ever' I'd be happier
05:50<@peter1138>i miss the old ai
05:50<andythenorth>reimplement it :P
05:50<@peter1138>it was funny watching it terraform
05:50<andythenorth>it was fun playing a game with something crazy on the loose
05:50<andythenorth>actually I miss it too
05:51<andythenorth>it used to be quite satisfying to buy it, and demolish everything it did
05:51<@peter1138>well that was that network game i played with sacro
05:51<andythenorth>also, it would come along and ruin your nice plans for building a network
05:51<@peter1138>heh yeah
05:51<@peter1138>but the landscape was left in ruins
05:51<andythenorth>like wales
05:51<andythenorth>he
05:52<@peter1138>hmm, i need some normal 32bpp graphics too
05:52<andythenorth>hmm
05:52<@peter1138>and some 32bpp EZ tiles
05:52<@peter1138>should be easy to find :D
05:52<@peter1138>well, normal 32bpp graphics, maybe not :p
05:52<andythenorth>planetmaker: Eddi|zuHause the only thing I really care about classes right now is (a) decide something (b) find a way to lock the remaining class bits out
05:52<andythenorth>otherwise this just all happens again
05:53<@peter1138>ooh, that small airport is weird
05:53<Eddi|zuHause>i haven't played with the original AI in almost 15 years
05:54<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: what makes you add 'powederized' to the fertilizer but not to oil seeds?
05:55<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i actually have no real clue what "oil seeds" are
05:55<@planetmaker>sun flower for example
05:55<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: but "seeds" usually implies larger grain size
05:55<@planetmaker>or "Raps"
05:55<andythenorth>do you know what vehicles they travel in ? :P
05:55<@planetmaker>a typical fertilizer grain is ~3mm
05:56<@planetmaker>just to consider it :-)
05:56<@planetmaker>andythenorth: yes. bulk
05:56<andythenorth>what about bags? containers? barrels?
05:56<@planetmaker>at least when harvested. They're not different from grain
05:57<@planetmaker>or rice
05:57<@planetmaker>or similar stuff
05:57<andythenorth>planetmaker: I have proof: tankers
05:57<andythenorth>http://www.google.com/imgres?q=sunflower+seed+tanker&um=1&hl=en&client=safari&sa=N&rls=en&biw=1247&bih=668&tbm=isch&tbnid=kqUCZgXm2cRN4M:&imgrefurl=http://www.imprintitems.com/custom/8381337&docid=AoS7qQ4plg4gCM&itg=1&imgurl=http://www.imprintitems.com/sitewide/images/products/prodbigimgs/4954789.jpg&w=600&h=600&ei=dP-8TsTSKYz6sgbLy_X1Ag&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=100&vpy=142&dur=601&hovh=225&hovw=225&tx=122&ty=83&sig=114831221129984
05:57<andythenorth>4753777&page=1&tbnh=150&tbnw=145&start=0&ndsp=18&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0
05:57<@planetmaker>:-)
05:57<andythenorth>bulk, liquid, piece
05:58<andythenorth>keep refrigerated for hysterical raisins
05:58<andythenorth>refrigerated - I don't care either way
05:58<andythenorth>lock everything else by clearing the bits in ottd code
05:58<andythenorth>(pax, mail keep)
05:58<@Terkhen>I still don't understand why you need a change
05:58<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: btw. i'm not agreeing with your "cement has its own label" edit. in FIRS, the cement plant produces BDMT, not CMNT
05:59<andythenorth>we need a librarian :P
05:59<andythenorth>one librarian and only one
05:59<andythenorth>MB has done us a great favour so far by policing classes wrt ECS
05:59<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: not every bulk building material is powderized
05:59<andythenorth>'community consensus' on this is a fallacy :P
05:59<@planetmaker>and cement from a cement plant as "building material" is something I rather envision packed in 50kg bags
06:00<@planetmaker>thus I think powderized for bdmt is wrong
06:00<@planetmaker>it doesn't fit most ideas I have of a bulk building material :-)
06:00<andythenorth>until I draw a readymix concrete tower at the builders yard :P
06:00<@planetmaker>cement is only one among many
06:00<andythenorth>then you have to transport cement as powder
06:00<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: and why ENSP not oversized?
06:00<@planetmaker>not every machine part is over-sized
06:01<@planetmaker>like an electronics box or so
06:01<andythenorth>some are though
06:01<@planetmaker>only the really large parts are
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06:01<@planetmaker>thus same argument: it mostly doesn't fit :-)
06:01<andythenorth>mining trucks?
06:01<@planetmaker>but is the gear box of it already over-sized? :-)
06:01<andythenorth>I should draw some venn diagrams to prove this is madness :)
06:01<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i think of ENSP more about complete machines, trucks, bulldozers
06:02<@planetmaker>I say it's only one part of it
06:02<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: but that's actually a FIRS problem
06:02<@planetmaker>I easily ship it in containers, too
06:02<andythenorth>when some idiot like me comes along with composite cargos, the only valid class(es) are the ones that *all* examples of the cargo fit
06:02<andythenorth>is ENSP *always* at least piece goods?
06:02<@planetmaker>andythenorth: my argument is: in case of doubt don't add restrictions like 'oversized', 'refrigerated', 'powderized' or so
06:02<@planetmaker>just one (or more) of the base classes
06:03<@planetmaker>ensp is in my idea always piece goods
06:03<andythenorth>planetmaker my argument is same, I'm just coming at it from a different angle
06:03<andythenorth>ensp is always piece goods
06:03<andythenorth>the 'extra' classes are nonsense
06:03<@planetmaker>but agreed. the class for ensp is a FIRS issue
06:03<andythenorth>well yes and no
06:04<andythenorth>we can only decide it wrt the correct spec, and the spec is ditsy
06:04<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: but while we're at re-assigning some classes, then we IMHO should consider hazardous, too
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06:04<@planetmaker>like for chemicals and (fuel) oil
06:04<@planetmaker>or cola :-P
06:05<andythenorth>nobody wants hazardous
06:05<andythenorth>it should be masked out
06:05<@planetmaker>I'd not mind that either
06:05<@planetmaker>But not leave and not use :-)
06:05<andythenorth>mask it out
06:06<andythenorth>horrible hard coded cruft in ottd :P
06:06<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: then "hazardous" is the opposite of andythenorth's "clean"
06:06<andythenorth>"this class was a mistake, and ottd wil prevent it being used"
06:07<andythenorth>"this bit is not available for use, and ottd will prevent it being used"
06:07<@planetmaker>I think "not hazardous" is not the same as "clean"
06:07<Celestar>meh.
06:08<Celestar>hardly possible to store halftile-cliffs in the slope byte.
06:08<@planetmaker>hazardous goes with the orange plate and black numbers to identify the exact hazard on the transport vehicles
06:08<andythenorth>at ottd scale it's useless ;)
06:09<andythenorth>the only interesting use I can think of is setting things like vehicle speed against it
06:09<andythenorth>which is not a valid case for a refit class
06:11<andythenorth>hmm
06:11<andythenorth>I don't understand wally's suggestion at all
06:14<appe>i think i found a bug
06:14<appe>(yesterday)
06:14<@peter1138>surely not
06:14<appe>using the maglev set on a normal map, and that frond-to-end fast maglev train (the white one, cant remember the name)
06:15<appe>when adding carts, the carts was created on a new row underneath the empty train
06:15<appe>ill come back with a save this afternoon
06:16<Celestar>I don't understand ... when are halftiles stored in the slope?
06:17<Eddi|zuHause>when a diagonal rail tile is built on a diagonal slope
06:17<Celestar>hm.
06:17<Celestar>at least not in michi's branch :P
06:19<Celestar>slope seems always 0x1b, no matter whether there are tracks on it or not.
06:19<Celestar>or is that not used for steep slopes?
06:19<@peter1138>it's not stored in the slope
06:20<@peter1138>the foundations and halftiles are implicit based on the track pieces on it
06:20<Celestar>so what do we use those 3 high bits for in slope?
06:20<@peter1138>we don't
06:20<@peter1138>it's a byte because you can't have 5 bit variables
06:21<@peter1138>oh
06:21<@peter1138>hmm
06:21<@peter1138>right
06:21<@peter1138>i'm wrong :)D
06:21<@peter1138>:D even
06:21<Celestar>so er ...
06:21<Celestar>SLOPE_HALFTILE is used for what? :P
06:23<Celestar>that is some weird crap :P
06:23<@peter1138>it's used all over the place
06:23<@peter1138>just via accessors
06:24<Celestar>yeah.
06:24<Celestar>but I can't see it being set :P
06:25<@peter1138>in landscape.cpp
06:25<@peter1138>in ApplyFoundationToSlope
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06:26<Celestar>aah
06:27<Celestar>it doesn't seem to be stored.
06:27<Celestar>just computed on the fly?
06:27<@peter1138>yes, all foundations are
06:27<Celestar>I was just wondering why I didn't see it in the map array.
06:28<Celestar>still no idea how to store cliffs in halftiles
06:28<@peter1138>the foundations and halftiles are implicit based on the track pieces on it < yeah ;)
06:29<Celestar>...more can of worms
06:31*Arafangion is almost asleep.
06:31<Eddi|zuHause>Celestar: an MP_CLEAR for the lower half, and an MP_CLEAR for the upper half
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06:32<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: MP_HALFTILE_CLEAR ?
06:32<andythenorth>worms all over the place
06:32<Eddi|zuHause>Celestar: the upper one should have some information on which half it applies, the lower one can be a full tile
06:33<Eddi|zuHause>or maybe you need a halftile also for the lower part, to decide whether to show grass or "underground" in a "sliced" view
06:35<V453000>hm, where is the DB set? :) 11 11 11 already
06:35<andythenorth>he got distracted by some nonsense about classes :P
06:35<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: you got an MB reply ;)
06:36<@peter1138>yeah, splitting tiles for real is... hmm... ugh
06:38<Celestar>peter1138: ugly? :P
06:38<@peter1138>yeah
06:39<@peter1138>remove the feature! ;)
06:39<@peter1138>or stick with implicit foundations...
06:39<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: not coming
06:39<V453000>:(
06:39<V453000>how come?
06:40<Celestar>peter1138: the foundations are ok.
06:40<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: major ECS overhaul to come, and ongoing cargo class discussion
06:40<Celestar>peter1138: I'm wondering about having cliffs run through "halftiles"
06:40<V453000>yeah, I have been watching that :D
06:41<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: both threaten the durability of the set, so release has been postponed until both have been resolved
06:41<V453000>yeah, wise :)
06:41<@peter1138>Celestar, oof
06:41<@planetmaker>very wise
06:42<@peter1138>will it be on bananas? :p
06:42<Celestar>peter1138: oof?
06:42<@peter1138>Celestar, making work for yourself :)
06:42<Celestar>is that an exclamation or an acronym I do not undetrstand :P
06:42<@peter1138>the former ::)
06:42<@peter1138>ooh, 4 eyes
06:42<Celestar>peter1138: I think it should be skipped at first, since erm ... you'd need to store the (4 bits) of height difference somewhere
06:45<Eddi|zuHause>only rectangular cliffs? sounds weird
06:47<@peter1138>:)
06:47<@peter1138>ok
06:47<@peter1138>should i work on getting this EZ patch in?
06:47<@peter1138>or should i declare it an unwanted experiment?
06:49<@peter1138>Quit 'OpenTTD'
06:49<@peter1138>^ why is that in quotes?
06:49<+michi_cc>peter1138: As ez8.png really looks good, I'd say EZ is definitely wanted
06:49<Eddi|zuHause>it needs a method to provide EZ-sprites in a newgrf
06:49<Arafangion>peter1138: I always thought that was because you only think you're playing a game.
06:51<@peter1138>Arafangion, that would be 'Quit' OpenTTD :)
06:51<@planetmaker>peter1138: EZ certainly is one of the most-asked-for extensions
06:51<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, does it?
06:51<Arafangion>peter1138: Not if you're an existiantalist. :)
06:51<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: Is the png+tar route not enough? (PNG can be 8 bit as well :)
06:52<+michi_cc>peter1138: My mini-split of last night: http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/git/openttd.git/shortlog/refs/heads/ez
06:52<@peter1138>michi_cc, that is indeed my thinking :)
06:52<andythenorth>peter1138: include include! my eyes are getting odl
06:52<+michi_cc>Especially as a single GRF sprite is limited to 64kb which makes it a problem for high zoom-ins.
06:52<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: yeah I know.
06:53<@planetmaker>yes, iirc the tar route is enough. It needs a unique naming scheme (bpp, zoom-level). Dunno how that is currently handled
06:53<@peter1138>certainly needs more work, 32bpp isn't zoomed in
06:54<@peter1138>so all the existing 32bpp stuff won't work at the moment
06:54<@peter1138>i do ask myself *what* existing 32bpp stuff, to be honest
06:54<@Yexo>peter1138: almost none
06:54<@Yexo>most of the existing 32bpp stuff is only zoomed in
06:55<+michi_cc>There's only a bunch of totally mismatched sprites.
06:55<andythenorth>screw 32bpp
06:55<@peter1138>is there a reason to provide pre-scaled graphics rather than just the zoomed in sprites?
06:55<andythenorth>no
06:55<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: details?
06:56<@peter1138>zoom in if you want details? :)
06:56<andythenorth>life is too short :P
06:56<andythenorth>it's an ethical issue, if people have *that* much time to waste drawing pixels, they should do something useful
06:57<@Terkhen>:P
06:57<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: i mean between the zoomed-in and zoomed-out graphics, some details must be emphasised in a different way, to still be visible
06:58<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, yeah, i know what you mean
06:58<@peter1138>commonly done for icons
07:00<+michi_cc>I'd say pre-scaled graphics are probably better for 8bpp exactly for the reason Eddi said.
07:01<@peter1138>kk
07:06<@planetmaker>some wishes are easy to fulfill: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=57350&p=979806#p979806 :-)
07:07<@peter1138>http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/ez6.png < scale2x (twice) looks bad
07:07<@peter1138>http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/ez7.png < 32bpp-ez sprites look bad
07:07<@peter1138>but otherwise... heh
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07:08<@planetmaker>I've seen worse than the scale2x
07:10<+michi_cc>peter1138: Tried hq2x or hq4x respectively?
07:10<@peter1138>no
07:10<@peter1138>i looked at hq4x
07:10<@peter1138>didn't get around to integrating it
07:10<@peter1138>it's a nasty ol' block of code i have to say
07:11<andythenorth>http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/ez7.png < /me likes (apart from the buses)
07:11<@peter1138>the buses are made for the new cc algorithm
07:12<@planetmaker>hm, could you image the exact same scene with the different solutions?
07:13<+michi_cc>peter1138: Can you upload your current version?
07:13<z-MaTRiX>haha i have found an optical illusion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traveling_Wave
07:13<z-MaTRiX>stare at the travelling wave in one place
07:13<z-MaTRiX>for a few minutes
07:13<z-MaTRiX>then look at the text above
07:14<z-MaTRiX>(above Frequency dispersion in groups of gravity waves on the surface of deep water. The red dot moves with the phase velocity, and the green dots propagate with the group velocity.)
07:24<Celestar>michi_cc: have you any bright ideas about half-tile cliffs? :P
07:25<+michi_cc>I have not been thinking about half-tile cliffs :)
07:26<Celestar>michi_cc: I've put the corner of the north tile, the slope and the min height into the Tile struct
07:28<Celestar>michi_cc: which theoretically enables cliffs just nicely ....
07:28<Celestar>michi_cc: apart from some quirks
07:29<Celestar>michi_cc: Eddi|zuHause's suggest was to have two MP_CLEAR (or maybe two MP_HALF, or one MP_CLEAR + MP_HALF) at a single tile.
07:30<@peter1138>michi_cc, it's up. still some issues with some child sprites
07:30<@peter1138>e.g the animated lift
07:32<Celestar>michi_cc: http://www.dropmocks.com/mhzm-
07:54<Celestar>now that was a convo killer.
07:55<Eddi|zuHause>we have the weirdest convo killers around here :p
07:56<Celestar>lol
07:56<MNIM>Celestar: how did you do that?
07:56<Celestar>hack the code? :P
07:56*Arafangion chuckles.
07:56<Arafangion>Eddi|zuHause: You don't. :)
07:56<Arafangion>Eddi|zuHause: And that's a VERY good thing.
07:57<MNIM>I got that, celestar, just wondering how it works?
07:58<Celestar>MNIM: storing the slopes individually per tile
07:59<Arafangion>Celestar: Can you make that track higher, such that the track behind is *completely* obscured?
08:00<MNIM>So you get a landscape like in RCT, Cele?
08:00*Arafangion has no idea what RCT, Cele is like.
08:00<Celestar>Arafangion: yes
08:00<Celestar>wtf is RCT
08:01<MNIM>RollerCoaster Tycoon?
08:01<Celestar>no idea ....
08:01*Arafangion has never played that.
08:01<MNIM>0-o
08:02<MNIM>well, what I mean is that you can get straight cliffs between tiles
08:02<MNIM>like in railroad tycoon, if you do know that one :P
08:02<Celestar>i do....
08:02<Arafangion>MNIM: I've never played that either. :)
08:03<MNIM>you've heard of it at least?
08:03<Arafangion>I've played TTD, and OpenTTD. That's it, the only other simulation games I've played are... SimCity and SimAnt.
08:03<Eddi|zuHause>the railroad tycoon that i played had no such thing as cliffs. or landscaping, for that matter
08:03<Celestar>same ....
08:03<MNIM>ehh, sorry, my bad
08:03<Eddi|zuHause>actually i wonder where i put it...
08:03<MNIM>I meant locomotion
08:08<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: where you put what?
08:10<Eddi|zuHause>railroad tycoon
08:10<@Terkhen>who is going to code a new simearth for me?
08:10<Eddi|zuHause>i actually fear it got lost due to virus infection
08:11<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: the DOS version was available free for a bit
08:11<andythenorth>it's not WINE compatible for me though :(
08:11<Eddi|zuHause>use dosbox?
08:11<andythenorth>possibly
08:11<andythenorth>or....work on ottd :P
08:12<andythenorth>I like railroad tycoon, but I often wished it was TTD
08:12<andythenorth>^ applies to RT 1, 2 and 3
08:12<andythenorth>did you figure classes yet? :P
08:12<andythenorth>awaiting reply from MB?
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08:18<+michi_cc>peter1138: hq4x isn't really pretty: http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/patches/hq4x.png
08:18<@peter1138>ugh
08:19<@peter1138>yeah
08:19<@peter1138>i maintain that simple upscaling works
08:19<appe>haha
08:19<appe>:D
08:19<@peter1138>but there's there issue of mixing tile edges
08:20<andythenorth>upscaling works
08:21<Eddi|zuHause>tile borders are tricky when you need to consider adjacent pixels for the scaling
08:22<Eddi|zuHause>maybe you should treat "adjacent pixel == transparent => use own pixel colour for calculation"
08:23<Celestar>MNIM: you mean this? http://www.dropmocks.com/mh3Xz
08:24<Eddi|zuHause>and optimize the hq-filter for 30° lines, instead of 45° lines, which hardly ever occur
08:25<@peter1138>neither do 30° lines?
08:25<Eddi|zuHause>well, 26.5°
08:27<Celestar>so next step would be to draw "foundations"
08:27<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=28384 <-- the ancient double size filter patch
08:27<Eddi|zuHause>but that one did it on the output buffer
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08:27<Eddi|zuHause>not per sprite
08:28<@peter1138>2006... :D
08:28<Celestar>lol :D
08:28<@peter1138>yeah
08:28<@peter1138>that does actually look really good
08:28<Eddi|zuHause>i did say "ancient"
08:29<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, yeah, but i remember it
08:29<Eddi|zuHause>i played with it extensively
08:29<@peter1138>r7134 :D
08:30<Eddi|zuHause>in the MiniIN age :)
08:31<Celestar>hmmm.
08:31<@peter1138>it's not that big
08:31<@peter1138>probably possible to pick out the algorithm to apply it to sprites
08:31<Celestar>Foundations are fundamentally different from cliffs.
08:31<@peter1138>yes
08:31<Eddi|zuHause>MP_FOUNDATION?
08:32<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: yeah. considering it seriously.
08:32<Eddi|zuHause>MP_CLEAR => MP_FOUNDATION => MP_RAIL
08:32<Celestar>still....
08:34<Celestar>each tile, when drawn, has to take into account adjacent tiles.
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08:35<Celestar>the question is, how often is DrawTile stuff called compared to the normal tile loop
08:35<@peter1138>i think just simple scaling is good initially
08:36<@peter1138>later on other scaling could be done
08:36<@peter1138>but it needs more tweaking of blitter encode functions
08:37<Eddi|zuHause>MP_FOUNDATION caches which sprite to draw? then no adjacent tile info needed
08:38<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: yeah. that was my line of thinking as well.
08:38<@peter1138>could cache the foundation, yeah
08:41<Celestar>shouldn't be difficult either.
08:41<Celestar>but first thing I need is some UI to make cliffs.
08:41<Celestar>because manually setting bits in tiles is getting slightly annoying.
08:42<Eddi|zuHause>haha. CTRL+terraform is already taken, though
08:42<Celestar>well
08:42<Eddi|zuHause>for diagonal levelling
08:42<Celestar>temporarliy :P
08:42<Celestar>and there's still the option to make more buttons :P
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08:46<@peter1138>hmm, these filters require palette information :(
08:47<@peter1138>there's a 256KB colour lookup table
08:47<Eddi|zuHause>apply the filter after recolouring?
08:47<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, that's too late
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08:55<Celestar>hm.
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09:00<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, the sprites are scaled just as they're loaded, before they're put into the sprite cache
09:00<@peter1138>so way before palette information exists
09:00<@peter1138>well
09:00<@peter1138>i suppose i could try applying it anyway
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09:01<Eddi|zuHause>"palette" as in "DOS"/"windows"?
09:01<@peter1138>palette as in rgb values
09:01<Eddi|zuHause>hm...
09:01<@peter1138>actually it doesn't need them for the scaling, just to fill the lookup table
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09:08<SileneDioica>hello
09:08<SileneDioica>i have a question
09:09<SileneDioica>how do i get oil from a ship on a train?
09:09<SileneDioica>and what is an aqueduct for?
09:10<SileneDioica>(ok i know that's 2 questions...)
09:11<@Terkhen>hi SileneDioica
09:11<@Terkhen>for the first question check: http://wiki.openttd.org/Feeder_service
09:11<@Terkhen>and an aqueduct is a "bridge" for ships IIRC
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09:12<SileneDioica>thank you Terkhen
09:12<@Terkhen>np
09:15<Celestar>Assertion `IsTileType(t, MP_OBJECT)' failed.
09:15<@Belugas>hello
09:15<@Belugas>FRIDAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
09:15<Celestar>gnah
09:15<Celestar>I gotta fix the map before anything else loads.
09:16<Celestar>the question is .. how.
09:17<@Terkhen>happy friday Belugas :)
09:17<Celestar>AfterLoadGame happens too late ffs
09:18<@peter1138>heh
09:24<Celestar>ok help.
09:25<Celestar>currently, type and height are stored in one chunk. the new version contains only the type in the same chunk.
09:25<Celestar>when loading an old version, I have to rip apart type an height and put it into the right places.
09:25<Celestar>where do I put this in. AfterLoadGame is clearly too late ...
09:27<@Terkhen>saveload code is too confusing :)
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09:27<Celestar>nah it's not imho.
09:27<@Terkhen>my first guess would be at the static void LOAD_XXXX function for the map, but I always get it wrong at the first try
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09:28<Celestar>the problem is the Load_MAPSOMETHING function doesn't know which version is being loaded, does it?
09:29<@Terkhen>it does, check Load_INDY at industry_sl
09:29<@Terkhen>that's how I did it for converting old persistent storages
09:29<Celestar>oh.
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09:33<Celestar>wooo
09:33<Celestar>works
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09:34<@Terkhen>:)
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09:48<@peter1138>bah, it won't work
09:49<Celestar>what doesn't ?
09:50<andythenorth>it
09:50<andythenorth>obviously
09:50<andythenorth>:P
09:50<@planetmaker>quite ;-)
09:55<@peter1138>this vector scaler :)
09:55<@peter1138>well "vector"
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09:58<@Belugas>thanks Terkhen, but i'll wait until friday is done and gone ;)
09:58<@peter1138>oh, that's better
09:58<@peter1138>a ! in the wrong place :p
10:00<@peter1138>looks weird though
10:00<Celestar>well
10:00<Celestar>saveload still has some hiccups
10:00<Celestar>but I gotta run :D
10:00<Celestar>cya
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10:03<@Terkhen>:)
10:04<@peter1138>http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/ez9.png
10:04<@peter1138>"different"
10:06<Eddi|zuHause>looks "impressionistic"...
10:06<@peter1138>yeah
10:07<@peter1138>i was thinking "gimpressionist" in that ;)
10:07<@peter1138>*fact
10:07<Elukka>i rather like the simple slightly pixelated one
10:07<V453000>how is that re-drawn?
10:07<@peter1138>V453000, algorithms
10:08<V453000>quite interesting, not a bad result for something automated I guess
10:08<@peter1138>indeed
10:08<Elukka>photoshop and other graphics programs make it look quite good at 2x
10:08<@peter1138>guessing from information that isn't there
10:09<V453000>I consider extra zoom quite useless, but good job I would say :)
10:09<V453000>does it take a lot of processing power?
10:10<V453000>compared to ... 1000 trains?
10:10<@peter1138>not noticable
10:10<Elukka>http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/Art%20and%20stuff/4_abteilwagen.png
10:10<@peter1138>it's scaled then cached
10:10<Elukka>enlarge sprite at... 300% maybe? looks good to me
10:10<Elukka>*enlarged
10:10<V453000>dont know I always hated enlarging images :)
10:10<andythenorth>photostrop-pressionistic :P
10:11<andythenorth>simple pixel enlargement works for me :P
10:11<andythenorth>that's how I draw the damn things anyway
10:11<Elukka>same
10:11<Elukka>i don't think it does anything more fancy than just making every pixel double its original size
10:11<andythenorth>quite often in the game I hit 'cmd+' expecting it to get bigger :P
10:11<Elukka>you can still see the original pixels in that pic
10:11<andythenorth>umm
10:11<andythenorth>could we include a pixel editor in the game?
10:11<Elukka>there's no impressionistic blur :P
10:12<@peter1138>well it's still 8bpp ;)
10:12<andythenorth>and maybe link grfcodec :P
10:12<V453000>:D what for andy? Realtime sprite drawing? :D
10:12<andythenorth>yup
10:12*andythenorth has been there, done that, got the xml t-shirt
10:12<V453000>might be useful :D
10:12<@peter1138>andythenorth, you're sick
10:12<V453000>:)
10:12<andythenorth>'live editing of copy right inside your flash game'
10:12<andythenorth>bad bad bad
10:12<andythenorth>spend three months writing a content management system and inline editor
10:12<andythenorth>or spend 1 week editing copy in xml docs by hand
10:13<andythenorth>'but think of the time saved'
10:13<andythenorth>hmm
10:13<andythenorth>realtime editing of cargo classes *in the game*
10:14<andythenorth>problem solved :o
10:14<Eddi|zuHause>http://xkcd.com/974/
10:14<V453000>dont know I just draw sprites so far, no coding, and that already takes so much time that I am unsure whether coding is going to be anyhow crucially long in compare to that
10:14<andythenorth>no seriously, just let the user reassign classes at will in game
10:14<@peter1138>hmm
10:14<andythenorth>permanent fallback
10:14<@peter1138>ok
10:14<@peter1138>using the sprite aligner tool messes things up :D
10:14<andythenorth>remove it ;)
10:14<andythenorth>wait
10:14<andythenorth>no don't!
10:15<@peter1138>cos the aligner doesn't know that sprites are gui or viewport
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10:30<Eddi|zuHause>how's that relevant?
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11:11<@Belugas>ooo.... it's 11:11, the 11/11/11 and i'm still alive!
11:11<@Belugas>as some one said once, it's just a number...
11:12<Rubidium>now we only have to wait for 11/11/11 11:11:11.1111 -11
11:12<andythenorth>is that dec or hex? :P
11:12<andythenorth>@calc 11/11/11 11:11:11.1111 -11
11:12<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
11:12<andythenorth>ho
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11:20<@peter1138>1111 milliseconds precisely :D
11:20<@peter1138>lol
11:20<@peter1138>no
11:20<andythenorth>which timeszone?
11:20<andythenorth>-s
11:20<@peter1138>111.1 milliseconds
11:20<@peter1138>-11
11:20<@peter1138>which is...?
11:21<andythenorth>meh
11:21<andythenorth>canberra?
11:21<andythenorth>somewhere like that
11:21<andythenorth>dunno
11:21<@peter1138>no
11:21<@peter1138>-11 isn't used
11:21<andythenorth>ha
11:21<@peter1138>there's -10
11:21*andythenorth is too lazy to google
11:22<andythenorth>why google when you guess?
11:22<Rubidium>UTC-11 is Samoa/Midway
11:23<@peter1138>cool cool
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11:28<@Belugas>Samoa...samosa... hungry
11:37<@Belugas>so...next big date is wht? 12/12/12 at 12:12:12? or 13/12/11 at...10:09:08?
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11:45<@peter1138>hehe
11:46<@peter1138>http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/ez10real.png
11:46<@peter1138>http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/ez10fake.png
11:50<andythenorth>Belugas: I thought my baby might get born today
11:50<andythenorth>if not 11(r) then maybe 15.14 on 13/12/11
11:50<@Belugas>he??? another one???
11:51<@Belugas>or not the same baby...
11:51<@Belugas>confusion
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11:51<andythenorth>another one :P
11:52<@Belugas>wow... crazy rabbit
11:52<@Belugas>my sincere ... condoleances ;)
11:52<@Belugas>no...joke...
11:52<@Belugas>happy for ou!
11:52<@Belugas>you
11:53<@Belugas>boy / girl?
11:53<@peter1138>oh dear
11:53<@peter1138>just spotted usb keys in my pocket
11:55<@peter1138>andythenorth is a rabbit :D
11:55<andythenorth>condolences? :P
11:55*Mazur is a little airplane.
11:56<andythenorth>Belugas: the boy / girl situation is a bit schrodinger at the moment
11:56<andythenorth>it's presumably one or the other
11:57<@peter1138>OpenTTD already knows how many tiles it takes to bring a train to a stop, it is calculated every time you press the stop button to stop a train.
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11:57<@peter1138>BZZT!
11:58<@peter1138>i suppose it is possible to calculate it
11:58<@peter1138>but you need to know which route you're taking, and things like slopes...
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12:04<andythenorth>what does this actually mean? http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=979797#p979797
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12:06<@peter1138>the last question? lolwut?
12:07<@peter1138>i *think* he's saying that it should all be class-based
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12:22<@peter1138>hmm, did field fences get changed?
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12:23<@peter1138>hmm, yes
12:23<@peter1138>they're ... not right :(
12:23<@peter1138>hmm, only on steep slopes
12:25<@peter1138>http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/fences.png
12:27<@Yexo>peter1138: that's one of the new tables with magic values
12:27<@Yexo>I'll fix that
12:27<dihedral>yikes
12:27<andythenorth>lolwut indeed. Seems to be a proposal for a whole new layer of crap
12:28<andythenorth>which is somehow both easier, simpler , more powerful than what we have now
12:28<andythenorth>I'll buy that for a dollar :P
12:28<@Yexo>anybody knows of a good gui for git under windows?
12:29<dihedral>tortoise git?
12:29<dihedral>people at work use it
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12:31<@Yexo>any experience with it? I've used gitgui a few years ago
12:34<dihedral>it's suppose to be very similar with tortoise svn
12:34<dihedral>but i never used the git one
12:34<dihedral>it basically integrates into windows explorer
12:34<dihedral>gives you extra options in the context menu
12:34<dihedral>and has overlay icons in order to display a files / folders status
12:35<dihedral>anyway - i am off for today - heading home ;-)
12:35<dihedral>have a nice evening
12:40<+michi_cc>Yexo: I'd stay with git gui/gitk. Might not be the best looking GUI, but it does what you want. Offhand for windows I think there's also git-cola and SmartGit (there are some others but I don' think they have windows binaries).
12:42<@Yexo>I've also found gitextensions, which has a msvc plugin
12:43<+michi_cc>For VS there's also http://gitscc.codeplex.com/
12:44<@Yexo>perhaps I should just stay on the commandline
12:45<andythenorth>command line ftw
12:46<+michi_cc>For viewing the commit graph gitk is clearly superior to command line "git log". The only thing I additional use is git gui [citool] because staging individual hunks and lines there is easier than the "git add -i" way.
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13:01<appe>im bored.
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13:01<CIA-6>OpenTTD: yexo * r23188 /trunk/src/table/clear_land.h: -Fix (r23168): fences on steep slopes were broken
13:06<@peter1138>gitg/giggle might be handy... oh, but not on windows .hmm.
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13:17<appe>http://gyazo.com/a2bd478a116c7a6536b473cd8bb1165c
13:17<appe>eeh.
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13:27<@peter1138>what about it?
13:27<@peter1138>TaI's scrabble mode :D
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13:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: translators * r23189 /trunk/src/lang/ (11 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
13:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: belarusian - 1 changes by Wowanxm
13:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: croatian - 49 changes by VoyagerOne
13:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: dutch - 4 changes by habell
13:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: finnish - 3 changes by jpx_
13:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: french - 31 changes by Muxy
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13:48<Wolf01>evening
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13:59<@Terkhen>hi Wolf01
13:59<Snail_>hi
13:59<Snail_>speaking about translations, I just corrected one Italian string
13:59<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23190 /trunk/src/3rdparty/squirrel/squirrel/sqbaselib.cpp: -Fix: compile error due to Squirrel define messing up another included file
14:01<Eddi|zuHause>1 minute before the compile run? :)
14:02<Snail_>heh, I only checked and discovered it now :)
14:02<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: nah, a massive 13 seconds!
14:03<Eddi|zuHause>Snail_: sorry, didn't mean you
14:04<Snail_>I see, no prob
14:13*andythenorth hmmms
14:15<andythenorth>classes have disappeared into the usual black whole of 'wtf is the spec'
14:15<andythenorth>maybe I should write some nfo instead :)
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14:47<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23191 /trunk/src/table/palettes.h: -Fix: GCC 4.7 compilation warnings related to narrowing in palettes
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14:57<z-MaTRiX>peter1138<< i have cut apples with the ceramic knife, straight cuts will not brown ;>
14:57<andythenorth>hmm
14:57<andythenorth>did something break cargo FF?
14:57*andythenorth wonders
14:58<andythenorth>can't be
14:58<@peter1138>what do you mean?
14:58<Eddi|zuHause>could be a side effect of the grfv8 stuff. but what's the exact problem you face?
14:58<andythenorth>I have some vehicles that don't appear to be using the cb varact 2s I have for buy menu
14:58<andythenorth>but others are
14:58<andythenorth>must be an issue in my code
14:59<@peter1138>must be ;P
14:59<andythenorth>larks
15:00*andythenorth wishes apple would invent perpetual battery
15:00<Eddi|zuHause>anyone thinks "underline cities in minimap/viewport/town list" is a useful feature?
15:01<andythenorth>what would it look like?
15:01<Eddi|zuHause>depends on the implementation...
15:01<andythenorth>hmm
15:02<andythenorth>shrug :)
15:02<andythenorth>also
15:02<andythenorth>[2011-11-11 20:00:45] dbg: [grf] Callback 0x0x101d873d1 returned unknown/invalid result 0x0x23
15:02<andythenorth>definitely my mistake :P
15:02<Eddi|zuHause>are you using grfv8 stuff yet?
15:02<andythenorth>nope
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15:03<andythenorth>it's clearly some idiocy by me
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15:04<Eddi|zuHause>has the "cb36 with GOOD as first refittable" problem been solved with grfv8?
15:04<__ln___>http://www.reghardware.com/2011/11/10/nazi_star_trek_episode_broadcast_in_germany/
15:04<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: not afaik
15:11<@Alberth>0x0x23 ?
15:14<andythenorth>I'm missing something
15:14<andythenorth>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/736/
15:14<andythenorth>I can't see what
15:14<andythenorth>cb36 appears to be working as expected
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15:19<andythenorth>cb23 can't be broken because other vehicles show it ok
15:19<andythenorth>grr
15:21<Eddi|zuHause>i can't help you there
15:22<Eddi|zuHause>the last time i touched cb23, i immediately triggered its limits...
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15:24<andythenorth>it seems to hate my use of a non D0 text
15:26<andythenorth>B4 8C as return value gives me text B4 DC?
15:26<Eddi|zuHause>i thought it's only D0..D3, how can DC be valid then?
15:27<andythenorth>hmm
15:27<andythenorth>it used to be
15:27<andythenorth>I don't have a specific rev, but this text works with my YACD binary
15:27<andythenorth>I can figure that out in a minute I guess
15:27<Eddi|zuHause>maybe i am mixing up stuff
15:27*andythenorth -> cooking
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15:28<Eddi|zuHause>haven't ever used NFO string-ids
15:28<andythenorth>D0 works, DC doesn't
15:28<andythenorth>maybe I misread spec
15:28<andythenorth>it used to work
15:28<andythenorth>maybe I was relying on a bug
15:29-!-DOUK [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-188-182.w109-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd
15:30<andythenorth>"As of r1908, text IDs D100..D3FF may also be returned."
15:30<andythenorth>DC not valid :P
15:31*andythenorth was relying a bug
15:31<andythenorth>how naughty
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15:53<andythenorth>stupid capacity display (when mail is first refit) :\
16:11<appe>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/40/BR_brake_van_at_Colne_Valley_Railway_2.jpg
16:11<appe>so cute :)
16:13<appe>__ln___: the ignorance in germany is appalling..
16:19<Eddi|zuHause>appe: what makes you reach that conclusion?
16:19<__ln___>appe: that's right, any unseen star trek episode contributes to an individual's ignorance.
16:20<Eddi|zuHause>__ln___: i must have loads of ignorance than, because i have seen hardly any TOS episode
16:20<__ln___>(but i would also like to hear the answer to what Eddi asked)
16:21<__ln___>Eddi|zuHause: yes... tbh, i have only seen 2 seasons of TOS myself.
16:22<__ln___>and those i watched during this summer/autumn
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>i have seen maybe half a dozen episodes...
16:24<Eddi|zuHause>plus the movies, of course
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16:25<@peter1138>so are you going to reserve paths through signals?
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16:28<Eddi|zuHause>yes
16:28<@peter1138>cool cool
16:28<@peter1138>TOS is awesome :D
16:28<@peter1138>been ages since i watched any
16:29<Eddi|zuHause>maybe michi_cc has already some preliminary code regarding the matter
16:29<Eddi|zuHause>he's the new "i have a patch for that" guy :)
16:29<andythenorth>hmm
16:29<andythenorth>what's the maximum HP I can return to an RV with cb36?
16:29<andythenorth>iirc it's byte sized
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>how can HP be byte sized?
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>how are you making engines with 6000HP then?
16:30<@peter1138>trains are not rvs
16:31<@peter1138>it's not particularly unified :(
16:31<andythenorth>RVs have hp/10
16:31<andythenorth>for, no doubt, hysterical raisins
16:31<@peter1138>presumably 2550 is the max
16:31<andythenorth>it's always such fun setting props :)
16:31<@peter1138>ttdpatch reasons
16:31<andythenorth>silly old patch :)
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16:31<Eddi|zuHause>well, i did propose unifying of such units for grfv8
16:31<@peter1138>would be nice to make all the common properties... er.. common
16:31<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: propose louder :P
16:32<Eddi|zuHause>i got an answer like "if you use nml, it doesn't matter anyway"
16:33<andythenorth>I'm not using nml
16:33<andythenorth>nor am I planning to
16:33<Eddi|zuHause>oh, and frosch's answer of "we cannot change the size of variables", which means we need to make new ones anyway, so unrelated to grfv8
16:33<andythenorth>that's a good reason
16:35<@peter1138>so how does one calculate stopping distance? :D
16:35<andythenorth>s=d/t I learnt in school
16:36<andythenorth>and then there's an acceleration formula
16:36<andythenorth>which you turn upside down
16:36<Eddi|zuHause>v/100*v/100 i learned in driving school
16:36<andythenorth>it was an A-level maths question
16:36<Eddi|zuHause>or something around that
16:36<andythenorth>how do you calculate stopping distance if a driver uses variable braking?
16:36<@peter1138>and for trains?
16:36<Eddi|zuHause>err, v/10*v/10
16:37<andythenorth>http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=stopping+distance+calculator+train&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
16:37<Eddi|zuHause>so for 100km/h you get 100m
16:37<andythenorth>lmgtfy
16:37<@peter1138>how many tiles is 100m?
16:38<Eddi|zuHause>i doubt a train can do that :p
16:38<andythenorth>http://www.proz.com/kudoz/german_to_english/transport_transportation_shipping/3568429-bremsrechnung.html
16:38<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: in CETS, a tile is 32m
16:39<+michi_cc>I still have http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/patches/advance_signals_v2.patch + http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/patches/advance_slowdown_hack.diff lying about, that was a very tentative step into proper braking. But it's both broken and more about the signals and not the braking.
16:40<@peter1138>well, reserve up to the next signal after the breaking distance
16:40<@peter1138>so it's still about signals
16:40<@peter1138>and screw the people not using path signals
16:42<Eddi|zuHause>well, people using block signals will just reserve one tile at a time, on each vehicle_enter_tile
16:42<@peter1138>also do you need things like braking properties
16:43<Eddi|zuHause>if that tile is a signal, the state is checked whether red or green, if green, it is forced to green, all other signals in the block get red, as if a train were in the block
16:43<Eddi|zuHause>braking properties could be filled with default values based on weight
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>and newgrfs get properties to override that
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>with "realistic" values
16:44<@peter1138>i love how currently it's just the inverse of engine power :p
16:44<andythenorth>I like the quick stop :)
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: there will still be the "emergency stop" mode, but it will be difficult to trigger
16:44<andythenorth>inverse of engine power might be correct for trains where only the engine has brakes
16:44<@peter1138>also while you're at it, ship acceleration :p
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16:45<andythenorth>ship acceleration is wonderful
16:45<andythenorth>it also makes smoke completely pointless
16:45<andythenorth>as the smoke is only shown when acclerating
16:45<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: so when a ship turns, it goes sideways?
16:45<andythenorth>and ships accelerate rather fast
16:45<andythenorth>did I ever mention ship smoke before? :P
16:46<@Terkhen>once or thrice ;)
16:46<@peter1138>smoke should be shown when powered is being used
16:46<@peter1138>but ships don't have power :D
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16:46<@peter1138>-ed
16:47<andythenorth>sailing ships don't have power
16:47<andythenorth>except they do
16:47<@peter1138>they don't smoke either
16:47<Eddi|zuHause>realistic wind!
16:47<Eddi|zuHause>should also affect planes!
16:47<andythenorth>effect sprites for sails!
16:48<andythenorth>how much should this tram cost?
16:48<@peter1138>25p
16:48<andythenorth>it does already
16:49<Eddi|zuHause>for CETS i (try to) take a real price, and scale it to 4% inflation based on 1920
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16:52<appe>Eddi|zuHause, __ln___: let me add: the german government still seems to think ww2 to be something else but history.
16:52<__ln___>appe: fiction?
16:52<Eddi|zuHause>appe: how has the german government have anything to do with this?
16:52<Eddi|zuHause>*does
16:52<appe>Eddi|zuHause: thats the ignorance im talking about. as far as i know, that episode wasnt even legal to air?
16:53<andythenorth>how does this get cargo classes fixed?
16:53<andythenorth>:P
16:53<bd97>how many plane can we have per international airport,
16:53<andythenorth>yay
16:53<andythenorth>godwin event avoided by genuine questions
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>appe: you're making no sense
16:54<appe>bah, never mind.
16:54-!-Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Tschüß]
16:54<@peter1138>if you read the article, it states it was legal to show
16:54<appe>yes, i see that know
16:54-!-Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:54*appe returns to his break vans
16:55*peter1138 breaks appe's brake vans
16:55-!-Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd
16:55<appe>it's british, itl break by itself.
16:56<@peter1138>yay, openttd built in mingw :D
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16:57<@peter1138>now... any r23191 servers ? :P
16:57<@Terkhen>good night
16:58<@peter1138>hm, i forgot about the network server list being slow
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17:01<andythenorth>tram costs £21k
17:01<andythenorth>which is about 25p in new money
17:01<WINDCENT>Have a question for you all :-) I'm trying to set up a dedicated server on my Linux server with a terminal window. Is there a place to download a standard tar.gz file, the only thing I find is a .deb file, not familiar with .deb file, but undertand that it's not possible to install this via terminal window.
17:02<WINDCENT>The server is on the opposite side of the world.
17:02<+michi_cc>Updated YAIM: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=979868#p979868
17:02<@peter1138>a .deb is a debian package file
17:02<__ln___>not possible to install a .deb through terminal??
17:03<@peter1138>is it a debian-based server?
17:03<@peter1138>although
17:03<@peter1138>just download a linux generic binary
17:03<@peter1138>that should "just work", no installation needed
17:04<andythenorth>hmm
17:04<andythenorth>can I be arsed to fix this mail capacity stupidity
17:04<andythenorth>capacity: 60 mailbags
17:04<andythenorth>but then when you build it: 120 mailbags
17:05<WINDCENT>ahh.. there it was... the generic.... thanks... It's an ubunu
17:20<@peter1138>return min(-force - resistance, -10000) / mass;
17:20<@peter1138>yum
17:21<@peter1138>so braking power is directly related to the force provided by the engine? :D
17:21<andythenorth>'engine braking'
17:21<@peter1138>allegedly
17:21<andythenorth>peter1138 probably quite realistic for dynamic braking
17:22<andythenorth>you don't want to lose the air on a big freight
17:23<andythenorth>Al Krug has a nice guide on this :) http://www.alkrug.vcn.com/rrfacts/brakes.htm
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17:26<andythenorth>peter1138: how about freight trains that have to make a brake set on down slopes > 1 tile long ?
17:26<andythenorth>:P
17:27<andythenorth>freights go slower down big grades IRL; in openttd we just let the physics pull them down faster
17:27<@peter1138>basically that's just max-speed based on stopping distance
17:27<@peter1138>instead of stopping distance from current speed
17:28<@peter1138>but yes, things like slopes affecting stopping distance is one of the complexities of calculating the distance
17:28<@peter1138>or you could just do v/10*v/10...
17:29<andythenorth>NO! It's not realistic :P
17:29<@peter1138>true, you could just make it up :D
17:29<andythenorth>I am going to measure your pixels, and if you're one over or under on stopping distance, I want my money back
17:30*andythenorth can't solve the mail refit lies
17:30<andythenorth>maybe I'll just close that ticket
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17:32<andythenorth>maybe I should start a railtypes newgrf for YAIM
17:32<andythenorth>do railtypes have classes?
17:32<Eddi|zuHause>not yet :p
17:33<@peter1138>no
17:33<andythenorth>do they have labels? :P
17:33<Eddi|zuHause>yes :)
17:33<andythenorth>gah
17:33<andythenorth>lies !
17:33<Eddi|zuHause>no, they don't have lice
17:34<andythenorth>labels have lice
17:34<andythenorth>who's in charge of them?
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17:35<andythenorth>oh joy, there's loads of railtype labels already
17:36*andythenorth goes off the idea of railtype newgrf
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17:38<@peter1138>heh
17:40<Eddi|zuHause>it's only getting more joyful with "roadtypes" :p
17:40<@peter1138>nah
17:40<@peter1138>they don't exist
17:43<andythenorth>will they ever?
17:43<andythenorth>the only use I have for them is steam trams without catenary :P
17:43<andythenorth>and maybe mud
17:44<Eddi|zuHause>overhead tram, lightrail, ...
17:45<Eddi|zuHause>"lightrail" being a special kind of tram that only goes off-road, but has increased speed
17:47<andythenorth>off-road :O
17:47<andythenorth>this kind of off-road? http://foremost.ca/index_vehicles.php
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17:52<andythenorth>what does a railtype grf need?
17:52<andythenorth>'good' and 'cheap' rail types?
17:52<andythenorth>if I offer railtypes, do I have to deal with elrail and such crap?
17:52<andythenorth>i.e. provide variants with catenary and so on
17:53<Eddi|zuHause>yes
17:53<Eddi|zuHause>although you don't need to draw catenary, just set a flag
17:53-!-Elukka [Elukka@78-27-85-57.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit []
17:54<andythenorth>can I reuse base set sprites?
17:54<Eddi|zuHause>for what?
17:54<andythenorth>track, crossings, catenary etc
17:54<andythenorth>iirc the base set sprites might be a bit broken for railtypes, I looked when I was doing crossings
17:55<andythenorth>maybe I'm wrong
17:55-!-TheMask96 [~martijn@pride.vhost.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:55<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know about track or crossings
17:55<Eddi|zuHause>other than just keeping the default tracks in
17:56<Eddi|zuHause>the default railtypes
17:56<andythenorth>hmm
17:56<andythenorth>I have enough sets in progress
17:56<andythenorth>tempting though
17:57*andythenorth -> bed
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17:59<TrueBrain>"It is amazing how many people can use the internet day in and day out, without actually knowing how to use it" :D
18:00<TrueBrain>(fun quote of the day :P)
18:00<Eddi|zuHause>same can be said about cars
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18:00<Eddi|zuHause>we had fog all week, sight between 80m and 150m.
18:01<Eddi|zuHause>guess how many times i have been stuck behind people using the fog light (only to be used with sight below 50m)
18:01<TrueBrain>default for many people: it looks foggy, lets put on my fog light
18:01<TrueBrain>then again, I doubt they know how much 50m is :D
18:03<+michi_cc>TrueBrain: For Germany the moment you can't see the next "Leitpfosten" on a straight road with no intersection.
18:03<TrueBrain>michi_cc: that you know ... now tell all the other car users :P
18:04<+michi_cc>They should've learned that in driving school.
18:04<TrueBrain>should have, would have, could have :D
18:05<Eddi|zuHause>my suspicion is that 20% of the people would not pass the license exam again
18:05<TrueBrain>20%? You are kind
18:05<Eddi|zuHause>that's more than enough
18:06<Eddi|zuHause>instead of "play the lottery, and help kids" commercials they should show a driving safety clip each time before the news...
18:07<TrueBrain>they started a commercial here to promote taking pictures of criminal activity (mostly because human memory is faulty by design). Kinda nice for a change :)
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18:26<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: You want a revival of "Der 7. Sinn"? :)
18:26<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: something like that, yes
18:32<Eddi|zuHause>there was an east german variant of that, of which i forgot the name...
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19:09<Maarten>is it me, or is tt-forums.net painfully slow?
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19:16<@peter1138>it's you
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19:23<Eddi|zuHause>i get that same answer every time
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20:47<Wolf01>'night
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---Logclosed Sat Nov 12 00:00:18 2011