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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-11-14

---Logopened Mon Nov 14 00:00:28 2011
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01:38<@Terkhen>good morning
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02:30<andythenorth>hola
02:31<@planetmaker>moin
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03:22<appe>top o'the morning, lads!
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04:14<@peter1138>mornings
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04:14<Celestar>morning
04:17<Celestar>wussup?
04:17<@peter1138>hmm
04:18<@peter1138>apparently some code i've written has unwritten itself
04:18<@peter1138>and the file timestamps have gone back too o_O
04:18<@peter1138>i'm guessing i must have imagined writing it
04:19<@planetmaker>hello Celestar & peter1138
04:19<Celestar>you dreamt it?
04:19<@peter1138>i must have done :(
04:19<@peter1138>cos i remember publishing it to the test site too
04:19<@peter1138>and...
04:19<@peter1138>no
04:20<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, hmm, could do that. currently i flag if it's a gui sprite so that they're not scaled
04:21<@peter1138>drawing zoomed out sprites is probably slower for the -simple blitters
04:21<@peter1138>but who uses them?
04:24<@peter1138>if the gui has a zoom level...
04:25<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, anyway, doing that is essentially rewriting it :)
04:35<@peter1138>newstations, that was rewritten a couple of times :D
04:35<@peter1138>stuff under bridges was too, admittedly the final one wasn't by me
04:40<Celestar>heh.
04:40<Celestar>tron did a lot of work there
04:45*Celestar wants to go home
04:45<Celestar>what a slow day
04:48<@peter1138>yeah
04:48<@peter1138>tron didn't take anything of mine, i don't think
04:48<@peter1138>although m6 was my fault :p
04:49<@peter1138>he was agonising how to store the state
04:49<@peter1138>so i suggested storing it in a new byte temporarily to see how it worked
04:49<@peter1138>probably good though
04:49<@peter1138>otherwise we'd've ended up with the bits in a different position depending on the tile type
04:51<Celestar>:)
04:51<Celestar>I think so as well.
04:51*Celestar is still pondering the Terraforming System.
04:53<@peter1138>good luck :p
04:54<Celestar>rofl
04:58<Celestar>hm.
04:58<Celestar>so how do I install SWTOR? :P
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05:27<Eddi|zuHause> * Celestar is still pondering the Terraforming System. <-- i was thinking make "cliffs" a modifier button like "one-way" or "bulldozer"
05:27<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: hm.. sounds like an idea.
05:28<Celestar>will have to try that.
05:28-!-blathijs_ is now known as blathijs
05:29<Eddi|zuHause>if button is selected, the "dot" is not put on the tile corner, but slightly offset towards one of the 4 adjacent tiles. and which corner is modified is determined similar to the rail bit during autorail
05:31<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: I thought of highliting the corner by the dot and the tile by a "square"
05:31<Celestar>kind of an overlay
05:32<Eddi|zuHause>sounds ugly
05:32<Celestar>will see :P
05:34<@peter1138>use the tile highlight but transparent
05:34<@peter1138>hmm, that might be too subtle
05:35<@peter1138>playing at 2x is nice, i have to say
05:35<@peter1138>4x is useles
05:35<@peter1138>+s
05:35<Celestar>you use double/quad resolution sprites?
05:36<Eddi|zuHause>automatic upscaling of existing sprites
05:38<@peter1138>upscaling of sprites yeah
05:38<@peter1138>for 8bpp anyway
05:38<@peter1138>didn't bother for 32bpp :p
05:38<@peter1138>actually, not true
05:38<@peter1138>upscaling of sprites from grfs
05:38<@peter1138>not upscaling of sprites from pngs
05:39<@Terkhen>bbl
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05:41<Celestar>peter1138: speaking of which, would high-res sprites be theoretically supported?
05:41<@peter1138>yes they are
05:41<@peter1138>(but not from grfs)
05:42<@peter1138>http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/ez7.png
05:42<Celestar>that looks quad-ish?
05:42<@peter1138>the colour's wrong because the sprites are for the 32bpp-ez branch
05:42<@peter1138>that's 4x, yes
05:42<Celestar>hm.
05:42<CIA-6>OpenTTD: planetmaker * r23211 /trunk/src/settings.cpp: -Fix: Invalidate build vehicle window when changing the setting for wagon speed limits
05:42<Celestar>any plans for higher-res grfs?
05:42<@peter1138>no
05:43<@planetmaker>they'd show up, if we supported it
05:43<@planetmaker>maybe not too quickly, though
05:43<@peter1138>but grf sprites are limited to 64KB
05:44<@peter1138>without compression, a basic 4x ground tile is 32KB
05:44<@planetmaker>ah, yes. Not within the grf.
05:44<@planetmaker>The 32bpp method is fine enough :-)
05:44<@peter1138>in anycase, pngs work
05:44<@planetmaker>Just tar everything and done
05:44<Celestar>I guess people would be all over it ...
05:44<@planetmaker>Celestar: maybe. Maybe not
05:45<@planetmaker>Celestar: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=56922
05:46<@planetmaker>^^ doesn't look overly promising. And one couldn't make it (32bpp, not EZ) easier actually...
05:46<Celestar>planetmaker: don't get it?
05:47<@planetmaker>see the abundant response to "please give us 32bpp sprites, we'll code them"?
05:47<@peter1138>lol
05:48<@peter1138>maybe the people who'd do a consistent set aren't interested because it's just a patch?
05:48<Celestar>not sure
05:48<@planetmaker>peter1138: that request there is not for a patch
05:48<@planetmaker>those newgrfs would work in trunk
05:48<@peter1138>planetmaker, to be fair, there's no response after zephyris posted his sprites
05:48<@planetmaker>peter1138: exactly.
05:49<@peter1138>planetmaker, response from yexo i mean
05:49<@planetmaker>and zephyris drew those sprites years ago
05:49<@peter1138>someone provided sprites, and we did nothing with them
05:49<@planetmaker>they're the source of the existing 8bpp opengfx sprites
05:49<@planetmaker>eh?
05:50<@peter1138>what's the confusion?
05:50<@planetmaker>you mean we didn't yet use Zephyris' sprites is the reason for the zero-response otherwise?
05:50<@peter1138>no, we didn't yet reply to him posting his sprites
05:51<@planetmaker>that's right :-)
05:51<dihedral>hello
05:51<@peter1138>o_O
05:51<@planetmaker>maybe we should ;-)
05:51<@peter1138>exactly
05:51<@peter1138>someone™ ;)
05:51<dihedral>lol
05:52<@peter1138>anyway
05:52*andythenorth would do a 4x EZ set
05:52<andythenorth>after all, I have batch in photoshop :P
05:53<@peter1138>if EZ was in trunk, do we think there'd be any chance someone will make a proper coherent set?
05:53<andythenorth>I would
05:53<@peter1138>someone who wasn't interested before because it was just a patch
05:53<andythenorth>open photoshop -> batch [open file, magnify x4, save file]
05:53<andythenorth>:p
05:53<@peter1138>(a barely working patch at that)
05:53<@peter1138>andythenorth, you suck :p
05:53<andythenorth>hmm
05:53<@peter1138>gimp all the way ;)
05:54<andythenorth>why? I've just increased the amount of bandwidth bananas needs, surely that's good?
05:54<@planetmaker>now, there's the reply :-P
05:54<andythenorth>gimp sucks
05:54<andythenorth>hmm, I'd probably have to change all my bounding boxes
05:54<@peter1138>planetmaker, cool :D
05:54<@peter1138>andythenorth, why?
05:54<andythenorth>bigger sprites on the spritesheet?
05:54<@planetmaker>err, how does the graphics programme relate to the sprite size?
05:55*andythenorth clearly misunderstands how EZ would be added
05:55<@peter1138>planetmaker, interlaced conversations :)
05:55<@planetmaker>yeah :-P
05:55<@planetmaker>we should add a 3rd layer
05:55<andythenorth>you can't handle interlacing? You're clearly not married
05:55<@planetmaker>:-)
05:55<andythenorth>3rd layer = married with children
05:56<@peter1138>Celestar, have you got any cliff sprites yet?
05:56<@planetmaker>iirc frosch looked at it yesternight
05:56<@peter1138>wallyweb's suggestion looks good
05:56<@peter1138>(i think that's 4 convos now :D)
05:56<andythenorth>awesome
05:56<andythenorth>I was just about to mention WW's class proposal
05:57<andythenorth>why has no-one pointed out in the thread that I am smoking crack with my response?
05:57<@peter1138>planetmaker, of course, if we go with my EZ patches, then those sprites will be useless :(
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05:57<andythenorth>built in obsolecense
05:57<@peter1138>andythenorth, i read it as sarcasm
05:57<andythenorth>more neutral than that
05:58<Celestar>peter1138: nope. I _hope_ I can recycle the foundation ones for now
05:58<andythenorth>I don't want to upset WW :(
05:58<andythenorth>I already drove his coder away :(
05:58<@peter1138>heh
05:58<@peter1138>yeah, nice that you got the blame for that
05:58<andythenorth>I blame Eddi|zuHause
05:58<@peter1138>your unfinished set keeps changing? gosh!
05:59<@peter1138>(how often anyway :S)
05:59<@planetmaker>peter1138: why would Zeph's sprites be useless, if EZ would be added (in whatever way)?
05:59<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: you screwed up
05:59<andythenorth>you're supposed to ask forgiveness later, not in advance
05:59<@peter1138>planetmaker, not entirely useless. just the wrong size
05:59*Celestar is wondering where his decoded trg1r.grf went
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06:01<@planetmaker>peter1138: sure. But those sprites were never meant as EZ. So, yes...
06:02<@planetmaker>Celestar: http://mz.openttdcoop.org/opengfx/newgrf.php?1=0:5000
06:02<@planetmaker>^^ there ;-)
06:03<Celestar>aha :)
06:04<Celestar>stupid line
06:04<Celestar>loads 3 sprites per second
06:05<@planetmaker>slow connection?
06:05<@planetmaker>well, you can select the sprites to show
06:05<@peter1138>heh
06:05<@peter1138>that's a lot of sprites
06:05<Celestar>it SAIS 7.2 MBit HSDPA+
06:05<Celestar>it feels like 5 carrier pigeons per minute, 3 of which are shot down
06:05<@planetmaker>5000 is a bit too much. It's around 4800 in that file
06:06<@planetmaker>but it should stop when there's no more sprites to read ;-)
06:07<Celestar>planetmaker: what are the 4 "sprite columns" I'm seeing?
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06:10<@planetmaker>opengfx, ttd, and some (old) EZ
06:11<@planetmaker>or swapped. FF seems to have corrupted my system. bbiab
06:11<Celestar>lol
06:11<Celestar>scrolling that page is slow shit.
06:14<frosch123>planetmaker: i was about to fix the glitches with foundations on steep slopes
06:14<frosch123>which only happen with ogfx
06:14<frosch123>some of the ogfx foundations have "too much stuff"
06:16<@planetmaker>oh, I see, frosch123 :-)
06:16<@planetmaker>I didn't yet notice, tbh
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06:17*Celestar thinks that reusing existing sprites will suck
06:17<frosch123>nor did i, but i stumbled over some pics in the backlogs (by peter iirc)
06:17<@planetmaker>I guess creating a gimp with the front-side foundations and proper overlay would be simplest
06:17<@planetmaker>though not a 5-minute task either
06:17<Celestar>yeah
06:18<@planetmaker>And I seem to have loads of these easy-but-not-5-minute tasks with opengfx sprites...
06:18<@planetmaker>at least when trying to generate them from gimp sources properly ;-)
06:18<@peter1138>frosch123, ah, that's an opengfx issue? heh
06:18<andythenorth>do you need graphics for cliffs? I am missing part of the convo
06:20-!-MNIM is now known as MNIM-Noms
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06:20<MNIM>ehh. wrong server
06:20<Celestar>andythenorth: yeah I will.
06:21*andythenorth will be offline for several months in that case :P
06:21<andythenorth>do you know what's needed yet?
06:21<@planetmaker>not yet, andythenorth. It was about current OpenGFX foundations having glitches
06:21<Celestar>8 sprites alltogether iirc.
06:21<@planetmaker>though... they might be needed ^
06:21<andythenorth>send me a reminder when you need them
06:21<Celestar>if they are "loopable" :P
06:21<Celestar>andythenorth: will do
06:21<andythenorth>I'll then gripe for 6 weeks, then they'll be done :P
06:23<Celestar>for testing, a "brown box" will be fine :P
06:23<Celestar>or brown wall
06:33<Eddi|zuHause>i'd rather have cliffs as rocky/grey
06:33<Eddi|zuHause>opposed to the brown foundations
06:34<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: "test"
06:35<Celestar>i.e. you will have a uniform brown (or grey) rectangle :P
06:35<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I'll just make a snap decision, then commit it ;)
06:35<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: best thing would really be to make MP_CLIFF
06:36<Eddi|zuHause>Celestar: i have a feeling you need more bits for tiletype :p
06:38<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: there are already 8 now :P
06:39<Eddi|zuHause>Celestar: so, you have an MP_CLEAR marking the tile below the cliff, and an MP_CLIFF storing the Direction of the wall, and for the two ends of the wall the height above ground?
06:39<Eddi|zuHause>possibly more than one MP_CLIFF
06:39<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: so far, I have nothing but a bunch of illegible sheets of paper with notes :P
06:39<Eddi|zuHause>for each side of the tile
06:40<Celestar>I don'T see a "tile below the cliff" yet.
06:40<Eddi|zuHause>i mean the tile on the lower end of the cliff
06:40<Celestar>apart from cliffed halftiles, which have been postponed :P
06:40<Celestar>that's .. another tile :P
06:40<Eddi|zuHause>as opposed to the upper end, with foundations
06:41<Celestar>a foundation is but a cliff of a non MP_CLEAR tile, isn't it?
06:41<Eddi|zuHause>it might make more sense wrt drawing order etc
06:41<@planetmaker>Celestar: you might find code for them in rail_cmd.cpp where the half-tile foundations are - to my taste - hacked in.
06:42<Celestar>planetmaker: I see what you mean.
06:42<Celestar>planetmaker: my idea is to (code-wise) remove foundations altogether.
06:42<Eddi|zuHause>Celestar: there may be gameplay differences between cliffs and foundations
06:42<Celestar>planetmaker: and make them a "subset" of cliffs.
06:42<Eddi|zuHause>e.g. cheaper
06:42<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: yeah, but that's just a bit in MP_FOUNDATION
06:42<Eddi|zuHause>and automatically placed/destroyed
06:43<Celestar>yep
06:43<Celestar>but from a map point of view, it's the same thing.
06:43-!-hanf [~Klaus@host-89-242-76-7.as13285.net] has joined #openttd
06:44*andythenorth adventures in wikipedia
06:44<andythenorth>"corner case" to "counterfactual history" via just one intermediate node
06:44<Celestar>rofl
06:45<Celestar>hm...
06:45<Celestar>"Raise Land" doesn't actually ... raise land.
06:45<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not feeling well with wallyweb hijacking my thread. with some unintelligible babble that nobody actually understands
06:46<Celestar>"Raise Land", "Level Land", "Lower Land" are actually one and the same thing. just with a different reference.
06:46<andythenorth>which thread?
06:46<Eddi|zuHause>well, not "my thread" but "the thread where we discuss my proposal"
06:46<andythenorth>he
06:47<andythenorth>I shouldn't encourage him :)
06:47<andythenorth>you never know, he might be onto something
06:47<andythenorth>even a stopped clock tells the right time twice a day etc etc
06:47<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: my plan was to post a list of the sane things we have actually decided
06:47<andythenorth>but I can't really double-post :|
06:48<Eddi|zuHause>he can't divide between the technical specification and the user's manual.
06:48<Celestar>also...except for the edge tiles of the selection, all three functions will level the tile (slope == SLOPE_FLAT)
06:48*Celestar starts over with a new set of assumptions.
06:48*andythenorth doesn't like appending new replies to old posts, with different topic
06:48<Eddi|zuHause>Celestar: i always found the behaviour of raise and lower weird
06:49<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I posted a summary last night, var 0x40, 0x41, set a spec for uses of classes (vehicle sets conform or fail the spec) etc
06:49<Eddi|zuHause>raise/lower should imho preserve the shape of the landscape, just add 1 level
06:49<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: the question is, what would be less weird. preserve the landscale?
06:49<Celestar>lol
06:49<Celestar>ok.
06:50<Celestar>the question is, what would others say if I did that :D
06:50<andythenorth>they'd say "why can't I change newgrfs in game"
06:51<Celestar>the whole code creeps me out
06:52<andythenorth>they'd also say "I want underground metro"
06:52<Eddi|zuHause>that's actually feasible with the new scheme
06:52<Eddi|zuHause>we should call it "yet another map array" :p
06:53<andythenorth>grr
06:53<andythenorth>underground sucks
06:53<Celestar>andythenorth: that is kind of the whole point :P
06:53<andythenorth>I figured that might be the next step :P
06:53<@peter1138>underground industries!
06:54<andythenorth>http://www.bbc.co.uk/wiltshire/content/articles/2005/12/14/burlington_nuclear_bunker_feature.shtml
06:54<@peter1138>openminecrafttycoon
06:54<andythenorth>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corsham#Quarries
06:54<andythenorth>peter1138: ^^ I think that brings about a singularity
06:54<andythenorth>especially if you 'make it in facebook'
06:54<Eddi|zuHause>we should have more intermediate heightlevels
06:55<Eddi|zuHause>currently 1 heightlevel is 8 pixels, we should also have 4 and 12 pixel slopes
06:55<Celestar>*cough*scope creep*cough*
06:55<Eddi|zuHause>12px required for tunnel entrances
06:55<@planetmaker>uhm... what would it change to insert more slopes?
06:56<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: you mean ... cliff tunnel entrances?
06:56<Eddi|zuHause>Celestar: that as well, but that's not what i mean
06:57<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: I don't see 12px tunnel entrances as a hard requirement
06:57<@peter1138>Slope would become very complicated
06:57<@planetmaker>it'd break too much and too many assumptions
06:57<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: well we could first only allow tunnels at 16px cliffs :P
06:57<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: but it'd make it more *dreaded-r-word*
06:58<@planetmaker>:-)
06:58<Celestar>the .. what?
06:59<andythenorth>he means "take away the joy of playing with a toy, in favour of basing it on the collective hallucination known as the real world" :P
06:59<andythenorth>toys compress stuff, so should ottd :P
07:00*andythenorth will now stop with the amateur philosophy
07:00<Celestar>so does a compressor :P
07:02<andythenorth>hmm
07:03*andythenorth might have a solution to stop trams lying in the buy menu
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07:16<b_jonas>great
07:19-!-DayDreamer [~DayDreame@ip-86-49-59-25.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd
07:26<z-MaTRiX>hey-ho
07:26<z-MaTRiX>:)
07:26<z-MaTRiX>This is Eternity
07:27<Eddi|zuHause>you're evil, now i have this tune stuck in my head
07:27<z-MaTRiX>;>>
07:28<z-MaTRiX>but its cool no?
07:28<Eddi|zuHause>no
07:28<z-MaTRiX>ok here's some lighter Anastasia vs. Dumonde-Fly to the sky
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08:37<Celestar>hmm
08:38<Celestar>steeper slopes would make rack railways useful :D
08:40<MNIM>rack railways?
08:44<Celestar>?
08:44<MNIM>what are rack railways?
08:45<@peter1138>steep hills
08:45<@peter1138>very specific
08:46<@planetmaker>cogwheel rails
08:46<MNIM>oh.
08:46<@peter1138>Celestar, doesn't need steeper slopes
08:46<MNIM>yeah, that'd be cool.
08:46<Celestar>acronym finder SVP GSM
08:46<@peter1138>Celestar, i managed to get trains going 1mph up a short 2-tile slope :S
08:46<Celestar>rofl
08:46<MNIM>I managed to do that with five-tile trains too.
08:47<Celestar>http://lmgtfy/?q=Rack+Railway
08:47<Celestar>http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Rack+Railway
08:47<MNIM>I mean, with fourteen-tile trains I know to use smooth slopes or double locs (or both), but a single loc should suffice fore a five-tile, right?
09:08<Celestar>well.
09:08<Celestar>depends.
09:08<Celestar>how much is a standard ottd slope?
09:08<Celestar>2%?
09:09<Celestar>1%?
09:10<Elukka>it represents every possible slope
09:10<Elukka>isn't that adjustable now anyway, though
09:10<Sacro>Yep
09:10<MNIM>well, I think it's 5% with realistic acceleration?
09:10<Celestar>yeah.
09:10<Celestar>but for computing dynamics, you need to assume something.
09:10<V453000>I do not think he means the setting but the actual volume of the hill
09:11<Celestar>where I think 2% is possible.
09:11<Celestar>5%?!
09:11<Celestar>5% is a total shitload.
09:11<MNIM>for trains?
09:11<MNIM>yes.
09:11<Celestar>for main lines it's nearly unheard of.
09:11<MNIM>for cars, operating on the same slope, that's a woozy
09:12<Celestar>normal main lines are usually limited to 2 - 2.5% tops.
09:12<MNIM>what's the slope for an average railway viaduct?
09:12<Celestar>only Frankfurt-Cologne has 4% slope.
09:12<Celestar>that's the reason why only the ICE-3 trains can use it.
09:13<MNIM>why, are they the only ones powerful enough?
09:13<Celestar>yeah.
09:13<Celestar>450tons full, 8MW sustained power.
09:13<Celestar>I guess the temporary power is slightly higher.
09:13<Celestar>a full-length train thus has 16MW.
09:15<Celestar>but to compare: on the 6.2km long slope of 1.8% in the Irlahülltunnel, an ICE3 usually uses about 25km/h of speed under optimial circumstances.
09:15<Celestar>just those 4%-sections on Frankfurt-Cologne are rather shortish.
09:15<Celestar>s/uses/loses
09:16<Celestar>and btw: I don't think most cars would be able to sustain 300km/h on a 4% slope :P
09:18<+glx>and they start to fly when they pass the top ?
09:18<Celestar>cars a fucking heavy :P
09:18<Celestar>are*
09:18<@Belugas>hello
09:19<Celestar>hey Belugas \o
09:19<@Belugas>sir Celestar :)
09:21<TGYoshi>Any of you a little knowing about NAT and stuff?
09:22<TGYoshi>Since I want to run some kind of server, not related to openttd, listening on port 5000, while the data travels to the router from port 6000.
09:25<Noldo>what do you have running on the router
09:27<TGYoshi>Err, some default firmware called ´H220N´
09:29<@planetmaker>hi Belugas :-)
09:29<@peter1138>you can do that with NAT
09:29<Noldo>it may or may not have some portforwarding features and they may or may not be well documented
09:29<@peter1138>whether your implementation allows you to is another matter
09:30<@peter1138>3%
09:30<@peter1138>the default train slope is 3%
09:30<@peter1138>it's something like 5 or 7% for road vehicles, i can't remember
09:30<@peter1138>ttdpatches track slopes are 5%
09:30<MNIM>That's kinda silly, they're still the same slops :S
09:31<@Belugas>hi planetmaker :)
09:32<Xaroth>afternoon
09:34<Celestar>5%
09:34<Celestar>no friggen freight train makes 5%
09:34<@peter1138>don't forget freight-weight 4+ :D
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09:38<TGYoshi>Errrr, I had a blue screen
09:38<TGYoshi>Hard disk fault, yay
09:44<Xaroth>sucks to be your hard drive then :P
09:57<andythenorth>Celestar: rack railways go *up* the new cliffs no?
09:57<andythenorth>also...funiculars, but they're a tram type, not a train type in game
09:57<andythenorth>:P
09:58<@peter1138>hmm?
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10:00*andythenorth is inventing stuff that doesn't exist
10:01<andythenorth>someone once showed me why we can't have rail stations on certain slopes (trains cascade up/down a vertical foundation)
10:01<@peter1138>ok
10:01<andythenorth>allow that for trams on cliffs :)
10:01<@peter1138>that's...
10:02<@peter1138>that's bollocks :)
10:02<andythenorth>bollocks as in it didn't happen? :o
10:02<Xaroth>and when peter1138 sais it's bollocks.. it absolutely is.. bollocks.
10:02<@peter1138>reason you can't have rail stations on slopes: nobody's coded it.
10:02<andythenorth>he
10:02<@peter1138>i probably have a patch for it...
10:02<andythenorth>they didn't say it wasn't possible :)
10:02<@peter1138>you'd need new graphics of course
10:02<@peter1138>that's hardly a hurdle these days without custom grfs
10:03<Xaroth>peter1138: the question more would be, why isn't it in trunk yet :P
10:03<@peter1138>i don't think i do really :p
10:03<@peter1138>i had one for stations with curves, which is arguably more work
10:04<Xaroth>what would be funny tho, is that if you load a train to more than it can pull, while on a sloped station.. it should go down-hill
10:04<Xaroth>would make interesting strategies for rail-planning
10:04<@peter1138>it wouldn't
10:04<@peter1138>trains can't go backwards :D
10:05<Xaroth>I'm sure you can make a patch for that :)
10:05<@peter1138>an underpowered train will always move
10:05<TrueBrain>the legend words of peter1138 ... 'I have a patch for it' :D
10:05<@peter1138>just very slowly
10:05<andythenorth>btw I don't mean stations that follow the contour, I mean a station tile with foundations. You can't do that where the direction of rail is perpendicular to line of slope.
10:05<@peter1138>TrueBrain, most of my patches are published too
10:05<@peter1138>nothing to stop someone™ taking them up ;)
10:06<@peter1138>andythenorth, oh
10:06<TrueBrain>and I hope you also remember I have a patch to solve all bugs ;)
10:06<@peter1138>andythenorth, it would conflict with stations on slopes ;)
10:06<@peter1138>TrueBrain, yes :)
10:06<andythenorth>ha
10:06<Celestar>andythenorth: a rack railway is not going up a cliff :P
10:06<Celestar>because a cliff is vertical
10:06<Celestar>a rack railway cannot go vertical :P
10:06<@peter1138>that's a lift
10:06<Celestar>because if it did, we'd call it "elevator"
10:07*andythenorth just offers ideas to the crowd :P
10:07<andythenorth>some live, most die
10:07<@peter1138>multistop docks did you say?
10:07<Celestar>standard rack railway systems are limited to about 25% slope before the cog is pushed out of the rack.
10:07<MNIM>evolution at its finest, no?
10:07<@peter1138>Celestar, you're a master of multistop aren't you? :D
10:07<@peter1138>although i gather it's changed a lot since then, heh
10:08<andythenorth>funicular then?
10:08<andythenorth>still a lift really
10:08<andythenorth>if it's vertical
10:08<@peter1138>funiculars are bit too specialized imho
10:08<andythenorth>lifts?
10:08<andythenorth>pipelines!
10:08<Celestar>peter1138: yeah.. I was the one who committed the crime :P
10:08<andythenorth>I think I solved pipelines with an AI and vehicles that cost £0 to run
10:08<andythenorth>except I didn't code it:P
10:09<@peter1138>pipelines are easy
10:09<Celestar>peter1138: actually, it hasn't changed much
10:10<@peter1138>slot reservation is different
10:10*andythenorth thinks the whole "pipelines aren't in scope for the game" thing is bollocks
10:10<andythenorth>pipelines are transport
10:10<andythenorth>and if you were only allowed to route them above ground, they're challenging
10:10<Celestar>peter1138: yeah, that was changed about 12340 times :P
10:10<andythenorth>and if you wanted to go upslope and had to build an extra 1 or 2 tile pump station next to the pipeline, that would be more challenging again :P
10:11<@peter1138>:D :D
10:11<Celestar>peter1138: it kind of works
10:11<@peter1138>anyway, yeah, i do want mutlistop docks
10:11*andythenorth would like mutlistop docks too
10:11<andythenorth>and whacky racers
10:11<@peter1138>though when i say that, some people immediately think that means that ships will be able to collide as well, heh
10:12<Celestar>peter1138: I'd first like to have colliding ships :)
10:13<@peter1138>i think that'd be nice
10:13<@peter1138>but it's not a prerequisite :)
10:14<andythenorth>colliding ships :(
10:15<andythenorth>you will destroy my ~ oo capacity shipping routes :(
10:16<Celestar>rofl
10:16<@peter1138>:D
10:16<@peter1138>ships with quantum queuing? :p
10:17<MNIM>What's with the quantum, actually?
10:17<MNIM>doesn't seem like there's a lot of quantum mechanics in this game
10:17<andythenorth>I read that as quantum aging :(
10:17<andythenorth>something wrong with my eyes
10:17<andythenorth>or my brain
10:17<andythenorth>or the wires between the two
10:17<@peter1138>MNIM, have you seen it?
10:18<andythenorth>MNIM: took me a while to figure it out :P
10:18<@peter1138>andythenorth, you have two brains?
10:18<andythenorth>peter1138: I'm not sure, I can't count too well
10:18<andythenorth>I may have 10 brains
10:18<andythenorth>more likely 1 though
10:21<Celestar>what the fuck is wrong with these end to end testers ....
10:21<Celestar>got a mail
10:21<Celestar>"[ record is discarded and I don't know why. .... Please isolate the error message ]"
10:22<Celestar>he posted a screen shot with the mail.
10:22<Celestar>"Record XXXXX discarded: Called number and calling number are identcal"
10:23<Celestar>I'm THIS close to making a screenshot, drawing a red circle around the message and label it "here it is"
10:23<@peter1138>dbg: [sprite] Tried to load gui sprite #723 as a normal sprite. Probable cause: NewGRF interference
10:24<@peter1138>hmm
10:24<@peter1138>i'm doing something wrong :p
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10:43<Sacro>hmm, if I do _virsh = $(locate -l1 virsh), how do I then call virsh?
10:47<Sacro>ah, $_virsh
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10:51<@planetmaker>what do you try, peter1138?
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11:04<@peter1138>nothing, that's output with my EZ patch
11:05<@peter1138>which i'm going to rewrite, possibly tonight.
11:05<andythenorth>I am going to rewrite my tram code :P
11:05<andythenorth>tonight
11:10<CIA-6>OpenTTD: frosch * r23212 /trunk/src/group_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#4834] (r22980): Deleting groups did not update statistics of DEFAULT group.
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11:10<LordAro>evening
11:20<@planetmaker>hi LordAro
11:21<LordAro>shall i complain about the lack of build for 32bpp-ez now?
11:23<@planetmaker>no idea ;-)
11:23*peter1138 reviews the other EZ patch
11:23<@planetmaker>LordAro: for which exact repo?
11:23<@peter1138>it's still... urgh
11:24<LordAro>planetmaker: 32bpp-ez-patches, the builds are usually published in 32bpp-ez
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11:27<@peter1138>http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/ez10real.png
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11:27<@peter1138>^ hmm, i could always make that look optional... heh
11:27<@peter1138>http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/ez8.png < prefer that myself
11:28<Elukka>i see my wagon
11:29<andythenorth>peter1138: ez8 < that one. Shippety ship!
11:29<Rubidium>peter1138: those 32bpp sprites look ugly! ;)
11:29<andythenorth>I see my tractor
11:29<Elukka>:D
11:30<andythenorth>http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=jcb+fastrac&oe=UTF-8&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&biw=1126&bih=654&sei=_EHBTtPyOdGUswaX2NCDAw
11:30<@planetmaker>it has too small GUI for that zoom :-P
11:32<Mazur>Does aynone know a webpage with a good small NAND gate in openttd tracks?
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11:35<@peter1138>planetmaker, slightly
11:35<@peter1138>planetmaker, as i said though, biggui is a bit too large :)
11:36<@peter1138>Mazur, they're signals, not logic gates :S
11:36<andythenorth>I should redraw the gui?
11:36<andythenorth>kind of like my sometimes-day-job :P
11:36<@peter1138>actually biggui might be okay with 2x zoom too :)
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11:46<Mazur>peter1138, whatever. I need seomthing that turns green if and only if two other lines show green sigs.
11:47<Mazur>I'm sure I will come up with something if I think long and hard enough, but why reinvent the wheel?
11:58<+michi_cc>Mazur: http://blog.openttdcoop.org/2008/06/17/the-insane-led-counter-logic-gates-part-1/
12:00<Mazur>michi_cc, yes, I know, but that would lead to three NOTs and an AND, and I'm sure there mut be simpler solution.
12:01<TWerkhoven>what about the actual or-gate thats there? remember 0=green and 1=red
12:02<Mazur>Oh. totally overlooked that.
12:03*Mazur thwaps himself hard on the face.
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12:28<andythenorth>bah
12:28<andythenorth>nobody has pointed out how insane my suggestions to ww are :P
12:28*andythenorth is disappointed
12:32<Xaroth>your suggestions are insane
12:35<@Terkhen>andythenorth: if your suggestions are insane enough, most people will assume that they don't know enough to comment and say nothing
12:37<andythenorth>yeah, but now I can't reply in the thread without breaking double-post rule :|
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12:40<@Terkhen>"I'm sorry for the double post but..."
12:43<LordAro>edit your previous post ;)
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13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: translators * r23213 /trunk/src/lang/ (belarusian.txt italian.txt russian.txt):
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: belarusian - 3 changes by Wowanxm
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: italian - 3 changes by lorenzodv
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: russian - 1 changes by Lone_Wolf
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13:55<Wolf01>evenink
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13:58<andythenorth>didn't Wolf01 have a patch for RV stops on slopes?
13:58<Wolf01>yes, I had it a long time ago
13:58<andythenorth>might have been interesting?
13:59<andythenorth>train stations on slopes is questionable. RV stops is valid imo
14:00<+glx>I remember seeing train stations on slope
14:00<+glx>looked ugly :)
14:01<Wolf01>the graphics must be changed
14:03<b_jonas>what would you have next, depots on slopes where the workers have to risk their lives every day because the badly wedged trains can start to roll while they're repairing them?
14:04<andythenorth>hmmm....how might stations on curves work?
14:05<Wolf01>stations on bridges
14:05<b_jonas>wait, maybe that could be allowed up to, say, 1900
14:05<b_jonas>or some such fixed dat
14:05<b_jonas>then union workers decided that depots on slopes don't work anymore
14:06<b_jonas>andythenorth: do you mean stations with turns in the tracks?
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14:07<andythenorth>yup
14:08<b_jonas>that's tricky because it would require lots of new graphics
14:08<b_jonas>I'm not sure whether it should be allowed mechanically
14:08<andythenorth>not necessarily
14:09<andythenorth>could just do / \ angles, allow a turn
14:09<b_jonas>or even allow diagonal stations but not turns
14:10<andythenorth>currently my idea is possible, but (a) the pathfinder might not like it (b) load time penalty would apply for trains being overlength
14:11<b_jonas>and then you'd want two-level railway stations
14:12<b_jonas>with platforms both on ground level and a tunnel or bridge
14:12<Rubidium>pff... two-level is boring
14:12<Rubidium>N-level is the way to go
14:13<b_jonas>also ground under sea level -- I think that's quite easy to implement, you just need to add graphics for sloped sea tiles, and a mechanism that when all four tiles around a corner is flooded by sea then that corner is raised to ground level
14:24<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23214 /trunk/src/ (5 files): -Codechange: for base media sets pass the "search in tars" parameter to determine what to do
14:33<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: how about a name for the cargo schema? :) ECS gets conflated with ECS
14:34<Rubidium>NoCS
14:34<andythenorth>NewECS
14:34<Rubidium>YACS
14:34<andythenorth>^ and we have a winner
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14:36<appe>:O
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14:39<@peter1138>graphics for stations on curves already exist
14:41<@peter1138>http://fuzzle.org/o/stbr2.png < sprite sorting ;(
14:42<andythenorth>! bridges over stations
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14:43<frosch123>implement a z buffer :p
14:44<@peter1138>:)
14:44<@peter1138>then you would even need sprite sorting ;)
14:45<andythenorth>bridges over stations isn't a code problem is it? It's just impossible without an extra layer of madness limiting station height?
14:47<@peter1138>the patch is tiny actually
14:47<@peter1138>well it was
14:47<@peter1138>r9829 :p
14:47<@peter1138>although it's not complete
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14:51*andythenorth needs to rework the silly trams :P
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14:51<andythenorth>but first: baby duties
14:56<@Belugas>buwhahahha!!
14:56<@Belugas>you asked for it!
14:56<@Belugas>peter1138, cool way to go :)
14:56<appe>trams?
14:56<appe>:<
15:00<andythenorth>trams
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15:04<LordAro>bye all
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15:06<@Belugas>naaa.. baby...
15:06-!-andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd
15:06<@Belugas>hi ... "daddy"the north
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15:08<andythenorth>bath time
15:09<andythenorth>this laptop is not waterproof
15:09<@Belugas>:)
15:10<andythenorth>who will be #400 to download latest HEQS? :P
15:10<andythenorth>$someone
15:11<andythenorth>hmm
15:11<andythenorth>some kind of live download display would be cool
15:11<andythenorth>maps and whatnot
15:11-!-pjpe [ade6a119@ircip2.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd
15:11<andythenorth>"OpenTTD ops control"
15:12<andythenorth>and a big red button for something
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15:32<b_jonas>ah, I like big red buttons
15:32<b_jonas>http://russell2.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/bigredimg
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15:38<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23215 /trunk/src/ (command.cpp command_func.h command_type.h): -Codechange: stricter type safety for CommandFlags
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15:54<andythenorth>better newgrf vehicle smoke - that would need new props or a cb, not grfv8?
15:55<@planetmaker>that's feasible by those means, yes
15:55<@planetmaker>either or
15:55<frosch123>just delete "grfv8" from your dictionary :p
15:59*andythenorth rm "grfv8"
16:01<andythenorth>is there anything I can do to prompt better smoke?
16:01<andythenorth>other than actually burning stuff?
16:01<andythenorth>wasn't a lack of spec the issue?
16:01<andythenorth>and when we tried to make a spec, didn't it expand horribly to 'newgrf everything'
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16:22<andythenorth>@calc 25000 - 23215
16:22<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 1785
16:23<@planetmaker>that's still a bit to go ;-)
16:24<@planetmaker>@calc 23215/6
16:24<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 3869.16666667
16:25<andythenorth>do small commits :P
16:25<andythenorth>try and get lots of translations?
16:25<@planetmaker>that'll be only 1/day
16:25<V453000>the readme in game is very nice! :)
16:26<andythenorth>\o/
16:26<andythenorth>planetmaker: /me is hoping on at least one commit about props 0x40 and 0x41 :P
16:26<V453000>might be nice to allow some basic formatting though, like yellow text etc.
16:28<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23216 /trunk/src/ (7 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: introduce the concept of having different tar lists
16:30<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23217 /trunk/src/ (7 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: introduce the concept of scanning only in a limited set of sub directories
16:32<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23218 /trunk/src/fileio.cpp: -Codechange: prepare code for a separate base set directory
16:32<@planetmaker>\o/
16:33<@Terkhen>:)
16:34<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23219 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 2 dirs): -Change: different directories for basesets and newgrfs. So data to baseset or newgrf, and gm to baseset
16:35<z-MaTRiX>what will be the end of all this? ;/
16:35<andythenorth>"it will be done"
16:36<z-MaTRiX>i believe it will never be done
16:36<z-MaTRiX>those never-ending patches
16:38<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23220 /trunk/ (11 files in 4 dirs): -Change: move the baseset files to their new location
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16:39<@Terkhen>for it to stop you need at least two things:
16:39<@Terkhen>a) Stop Moore's law
16:39<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23221 /trunk/ (9 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: update the documentation and installers regarding the new directories
16:39<@Terkhen>b) Stop people from desiring new features
16:39<@Terkhen>oh, and:
16:39<@Terkhen>c) Make coding for OpenTTD boring
16:39<@planetmaker>err, what?
16:40<@Terkhen>response to "what will be the end of commits"
16:40<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23222 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: reduce tar scanning calls to the bare minimum
16:41<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23223 /trunk/src/table/ (misc_settings.ini settings.ini): -Codechange: store the last newgrf count in the misc section
16:41*planetmaker missed that question ;-)
16:41*andythenorth awaits r23332
16:42*andythenorth has stupid numerology issues
16:42<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23224 /trunk/src/ (openttd.cpp settings.cpp settings_func.h): -Codechange: first load the config file partially so we can push scanning AIs to later in the process (when the GUI is showing the progress bar)
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16:48<@peter1138>coolcool
16:48<Wolf01>'night
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16:51<andythenorth>bah
16:52<andythenorth>still nobody has replied to say how stupid my reply to ww is about cargos :P
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16:58<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23225 /trunk/src/fileio.cpp: -Fix: create the newgrf/baseset/ai directories in the personal directory so the user has some clue where to place the different files
16:58<Rubidium>there... 10 closer to r25k
16:59<@Terkhen>:)
16:59<andythenorth>ha
16:59<@planetmaker>:-)
17:06*andythenorth is 1 commit closer to HEQS r25k :P
17:07<andythenorth>only another 24287 to go
17:08<@planetmaker>:-)
17:09*andythenorth fixed the stupid lies about tram capacity
17:09<andythenorth>that had been bugging me
17:12<andythenorth>good night
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17:15<@Terkhen>good night
17:16<@planetmaker>g'night Terkhen. And good luck tomorrow :-)
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17:34<@planetmaker>good night
17:40<Eddi|zuHause><Terkhen> "I'm sorry for the double post but..." <-- imho that phrase is even more annoying than a double post in itself
17:49<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: have you solved static-grfs-in-the-main-menu thing yet?
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18:13<Eddi|zuHause>GUI feature: remember sizes for each window class
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18:20<@Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: http://bugs.openttd.org/task/3900
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18:24<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: so you've been holding back on this for one and a half years now...
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18:26<Eddi|zuHause>what was also missing last time i played was remembering stickyness of toolbars
18:27<Eddi|zuHause>when i switch from rail toolbar to road toolbar, the stickyness is forgotten
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18:30<@Belugas>there was someone who mentionned (reagrding that patch) that source code was wrong on something
18:30<@Belugas>I don't remember what or who
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18:32<Eddi|zuHause>that's a good deal of specifics :p
18:33<Eddi|zuHause>"Weeds renewed for eighth season"
18:33<Eddi|zuHause>eightth?
18:33<Eddi|zuHause>how the hell is that written?
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19:07*Belugas cannot tell, not watching weeds
19:07*Belugas watches Walking deads and Vampire Diaries
19:07<Mazur>Eddi|zuHause, by some guys locked inside a room with a sackful of hash and a fridge and closet full of food for when they get hte munchies.
19:07<@Belugas>and Merlin, and Fringes
19:07*Mazur never followed Weeds.
19:08<Mazur>Saw a few episodes, decided it was not worth the time.
19:09<supermop_>i think eddi was askig how to spell 'eighth'
19:09<Eddi|zuHause>weeds was on its height around the 3rd and 4th season, kinda degraded afterwards
19:09<Mazur>NCIS, NCIS LA, Journeyman, HIGNFY, QI, The Big Bang Theory.
19:09<Eddi|zuHause>and i watch way too many series
19:09<Eddi|zuHause>lately i haven't been able to catch up over the week
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19:10<Eddi|zuHause>and yes, i was asking about the spelling of "9th"
19:10<Eddi|zuHause>"8th"
19:11<Mazur>Ninth.
19:11<Mazur>No "e".
19:11<Mazur>Eighth.
19:11<Mazur>Eght plus an 'h'.
19:11<Mazur>Or Eight plus an 'h', alternatively.
19:12<supermop_>off for dinner, later
19:12<Mazur>Depengin on whether you want to make a typo with the i or not.
19:12<Mazur>ENjoy/
19:25<CIA-6>OpenTTD: frosch * r23226 /trunk/src/fileio.cpp: -Fix (r23219): If you find a file, also use it.
19:26<CIA-6>OpenTTD: frosch * r23227 /trunk/src/fileio.cpp: -Fix (r23219): The FileScanner should also consider the old directories.
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20:00<Eddi|zuHause>but "eight" + "h" doesn't make any sense
20:01<Eddi|zuHause>"th" is one letter, so it must be "eight" "remove t" "add th"
20:01<Eddi|zuHause>but that's not how you speak it
20:01<Eddi|zuHause>(or i also speak it wrong)
20:02<supermop_>english doesn't really have rules that make sense
20:03<Eddi|zuHause>obviously. because it would be german then...
20:03<supermop_>english is the post modern german
20:06<supermop_>does anyone here do much photo or video work?
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21:56<DabuYu>supermop_: i do some, what's the question
22:06<supermop_>looking for a decent LCD
22:06<supermop_>no room for a crt in my apartment
22:07<DabuYu>ah - i must admit i don't have a specific LCD for that purpose
22:07<DabuYu>but if you get one, for good photo and video display color calibration is recommended
22:08<DabuYu>like this: http://www.datacolor.eu/en/products/monitor-calibration/spyder3elite/index.html
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22:09<DabuYu>i've always worked with personal adjustments based on B/W and color charts
22:10<DabuYu>but such product will definitely get better results
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22:10<DabuYu>and, based on personal preference, an screen with a coating will make the color better, but it reflects terribly.
22:11<DabuYu>*preference = experience - my preference now therefore is one without a coating :)
22:11<supermop_>i'd rather have it look true than good
22:11<supermop_>if it saves be an extra round of printing proofs
22:12<DabuYu>with calibration you get closest to truth
22:12<DabuYu>but you always have lcd -> printer conversion
22:12<DabuYu>lcd = (s)RGB color space, printer uses something different (depends on printer, often cmyk)
22:13<DabuYu>and that conversion often happens within the printer itself - even if the lcd displays correct, the printer might still change it to the worse
22:20<supermop_>yeah
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23:11<z-MaTRiX>hey-ho
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---Logclosed Tue Nov 15 00:00:32 2011