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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-11-15

---Logopened Tue Nov 15 00:00:32 2011
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01:08<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: the what problem? It actually might have fixed that though
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02:08<appe>morning, gentlemen.
02:16<andythenorth>moin
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02:41<Celestar>\o
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02:51*andythenorth wonders if it's worth fixing the tram offsets in ottd
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03:14<Celestar>if there's a bug, it's worth fixing
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03:26<andythenorth>trams travelling along / axis are some pixels too high in one direction and some pixels to low in the other
03:26-!-Netsplit synthon.oftc.net <-> oxygen.oftc.net quits: devilsadvocate_
03:26<andythenorth>it's not a newgrf offset thing...
03:26<andythenorth>could be the track graphics that are wrong rather than the vehicle path
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03:57<Celestar>do we have some auto_ptr like class?
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04:05<@peter1138>probably, auto_ptr is deprecated isn't it?
04:07<Celestar>in C++11 yeah
04:07<Celestar>it'S unique_ptr now
04:11<Celestar>there is a new "auto" 'datatype'
04:14<TinoDidriksen>auto_ptr should be avoided. shared_ptr or unique_ptr are vastly better. Just use Boost?
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04:37*Celestar tries to remember what the drawbacks of auto_ptr were
04:39<@peter1138>iirc we used it for something and it caused problems
04:39<@peter1138>but i can't where or what
04:39<@peter1138>*remember
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05:21<@peter1138>oh my god marten how could you
05:22<Celestar>?
05:24<MNIM>Questionable Content.
05:24<MNIM>Yes, martin, how could you?
05:24<MNIM>he forgot to throw pintsize out.
05:24<MNIM>great. Now we'll have videos ALL over the net.
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05:30<@planetmaker>hehe
05:30<@planetmaker>bloody Pintsize
05:30<@planetmaker>I wonder though what Marigold's antropopc will then do with him ;-)
05:31<appe>what's pintzine?
05:31<appe>size*
05:31<@planetmaker>appe, you need to read "Questionable Content"
05:31<@planetmaker>It's a robot
05:31<MNIM>hmmmh, planetmaker, should we link that here?
05:32<@planetmaker>http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1
05:32<@planetmaker>^^ appe
05:33<@planetmaker>the newer comics are much nicer drawn, though
05:36<appe>haha
05:36<appe>neat
05:37<@planetmaker>MNIM, it might sometimes be "questionable content" by some hypocritical moral standards. But not by mine ;-)
05:38<MNIM>True. :P
05:38<MNIM>but that wasn't my only concern
05:39<MNIM>I mean, that comic is pretty long, what're we at right now? more than 2000 comics. We don't want to distract our devs that long.
05:39<Celestar>http://9gag.com/gag/586487
05:39<@planetmaker>can't distract me. I read them all :-P
05:39<Celestar>outsourced marketing to Bulgaria, haven'T they?
05:39<MNIM>me too. :P
05:39<@planetmaker>hehe, Celestar
05:39<appe>9gag <3.
05:40<@planetmaker>enjoy :-P
05:40<@planetmaker>(that add is more questionable than that comic :-P )
05:41<MNIM>hahaha
05:42<MNIM>I don't envy the person who needs to have work done and gets distracted by finding it for the first time, though
05:42<Celestar>planetmaker: that's just sad ...
05:49<Celestar>.....
05:49<Celestar>those end-to-end testers are driving me nuts.
05:49<Noldo>who?
05:50<Celestar>I don't need uber-nerds as testers. But they should have a rudimentary set of skills.
05:50<Celestar>for example: Literacy would be of great help.
05:50<Noldo>but reading instructions is practically cheating
05:50<Noldo>you get unfair advantage compared to people who don't
05:51<Celestar>I'm not talking about instructions.
05:51<Celestar>I'm talking about reading the big: "ERROR: <message>"
05:51<Noldo>works for that too
05:51<Celestar>"I cannot see the reason for the error"
05:51<Celestar>it's THERE.
05:51<Celestar>IN BIG LETTERS. ON YOUR SCREEN.
05:52<Celestar>reminds me of "kein Ostdeutsch" for the Germans among us :D
05:53<@planetmaker>Celestar, I answered the other day a complaint about FIRS. "It issues error E00"
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05:54<@planetmaker>Well. If he had continued to read, The next words in that error message are "You need OpenTTD 1.2.0 / trunk r22xyz or newer"
05:54<@planetmaker>oh well
05:54<@planetmaker>He was using 1.1.3
05:54<@planetmaker>that's how people are. Read until the first "dang!" and then act like hypnotized rabbits
05:56<@planetmaker>It also made me wonder: why do we put any text in the error message?
05:56<andythenorth>planetmaker:
05:56<andythenorth>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-serving_bias#Examples
05:56<andythenorth>"At the same time, there is evidence to suggest that people do not necessarily exhibit self-serving bias with respect to computer technologies. When they fail to achieve a desirable outcome when using a computer they often blame themselves, not the technology"
05:56<andythenorth>hmm
05:57<@planetmaker>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=980020#p980020
05:57<Celestar>planetmaker: just write "ASSHAT!" and be done with it
05:57<Noldo>"I'm bad with computers"
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05:58<@planetmaker>nah, we wanna remain polite :-)
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05:58<Celestar>what is FIRS in the first place? :P
05:58<Celestar>!FIRS
05:58<andythenorth>!FIRS
05:59<andythenorth>rm -r FIRS
05:59<Celestar>141 pages O_o
06:00<@planetmaker>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs and http://wiki.openttd.org/FIRS
06:00<@planetmaker>pew. Lucky me, I have a backup
06:00<@planetmaker>actually two backups ;-)
06:02<@planetmaker>Celestar, it's the industry set for those who're bored of default industries and want something more expansive. But who don't want to care in great detail about strong inter-dependency wrt production levels to depend on concurrent delivery of N > 1 cargos
06:02<@peter1138>planetmaker, yeah, i read through all of QC when it was up to the 600s i think
06:06<appe>uhm
06:06<@peter1138>hmm?
06:06<appe>dev.openttdcoop.org gives me some wierd translations
06:06<@planetmaker>in what way?
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06:06<appe>the headlines are translated, and nothing else is.
06:06<__ln___>appe: spelled w-e-i-r-d
06:06*andythenorth tries to summarise FIRS
06:06<andythenorth>fails
06:07<appe>__ln___: ah, sorry.
06:07<@planetmaker>hehe, andythenorth :-)
06:07<@planetmaker>But that'd be a good exercise, writing a comprehensive readme file for FIRS
06:07<@planetmaker>It even became much longer than I anticipated for OpenGFX+ Trains
06:07<@planetmaker>And that's nearly only default vehicles and a few modified wagons. Well. Or a bit more :-)
06:07<Celestar>planetmaker: seems like I gotta try it
06:08<@peter1138>andythenorth, btw, 0x40 & 0x41 are provisional, just for testing it ;p
06:08<@planetmaker>Celestar, definitely ;-)
06:08<andythenorth>my proposal is also provisional :)
06:08<andythenorth>I just needed to move it on a bit
06:08<Celestar>planetmaker: and in some years, use that with destinations :P
06:08<@peter1138>i think it was suggested to use 0x80/0x81 to leave more room for type-specific properties
06:09<@planetmaker>Celestar, we played it with yacd
06:09<@planetmaker>it's awesome
06:09<@planetmaker>and not that easy
06:09<@peter1138>i wanna play EZ/YACD/YAIM/YAMA
06:09<@planetmaker>partly also as yacd would need to supply a mechanism to be disabled for certain cargos or so
06:09<@peter1138>hmm
06:09<@peter1138>i wanna play YAEZ/YACD/YAIM/YAMA
06:09<@peter1138>yes
06:09<@planetmaker>yama?
06:10<@peter1138>yet another map array
06:10<@planetmaker>ah :-)
06:10*andythenorth wants to play YACS
06:10<@planetmaker>Well, peter1138, start or continue with item 1 ;-)
06:10*planetmaker quickly hides
06:11*andythenorth wants to play YASS
06:11<andythenorth>Yet Another Ship Smoke
06:12<@planetmaker>:-P
06:12<Noldo>what are the others?
06:12<@peter1138>question
06:13<Noldo>cargo destinations,
06:13<@peter1138>the exist smoke things give a position for the smoke
06:13<@planetmaker>andythenorth, you could start by providing a _good_ spec
06:13<@peter1138>is that really necessary?
06:13<@peter1138>can't it be done with sprite offsets?
06:13<andythenorth>planetmaker: the spec became an unwinnable problem :(
06:13<@planetmaker>smoke is not newgrf-able iirc
06:13<andythenorth>I provided a spec
06:13<andythenorth>of sorts
06:14<@peter1138>hmm, right, that's the problem, yes
06:14<andythenorth>but then I was told that I hadn't considered the need for full newgrf control of effect vehicles :(
06:14<@planetmaker>so, is there a FS issue about it. And with them?
06:14*andythenorth will look
06:14<@planetmaker>otherwise every thought has to be re-thought again and again and again
06:14<andythenorth>we concluded that we couldn't do it because it might block the future addition of newgrf effect vehicles
06:14<andythenorth>so we had to spec that
06:15*andythenorth rummages
06:15*andythenorth doesn't care about newgrf effect vehicles, but others might
06:15<@planetmaker>goal scripts might drive them :-P
06:15<@peter1138>goal scripts?
06:15<@peter1138>o_O
06:15<@planetmaker>peter1138, would make sense, not?
06:15<@planetmaker>Like a goal script having a submarine, heli or ufo appear?
06:15<andythenorth>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=51378
06:15<@peter1138>oh right
06:15<@peter1138>that sort of effect :S
06:16<@peter1138>and then there's the chimney smoke effect
06:16<@planetmaker>though... that's disaster vehicles. So maybe I'm wrong
06:16<@planetmaker>that's different and I might have been confused
06:16<@peter1138>hmm
06:16<@peter1138>yes
06:16<andythenorth>http://bugs.openttd.org/task/4263 < spec of sorts (via mr. frosch), also pictures and crap
06:16<@peter1138>BreakdownSMoke vehicle
06:16<@peter1138>o_O
06:16<andythenorth>nearly one year old :P
06:17<@peter1138>they're all specially hard coded
06:17<@peter1138>hmm
06:17<andythenorth>in that year nobody has ever said 'omg, I really need to provide different sparks for electric vehicles'
06:17<@peter1138>what effects do you need for ships? steam & diesel smoke? :p
06:18<andythenorth>yup
06:18<@peter1138>so that doesn't need new sprites
06:18<andythenorth>they're available, they're just not in the right place
06:18<andythenorth>I need x, y, z control
06:18<@peter1138>but does need a way to define the position
06:18<@peter1138>yes
06:18<andythenorth>I need to be able to have n (some ships have > 1 funnel)
06:18<andythenorth>and the triggers on acceleration might need adjusting
06:18<@peter1138>they always accelerate
06:18<andythenorth>currently ships smoke only briefly :)
06:19<@peter1138>they smoke at all?
06:19<andythenorth>occasionally
06:19<@peter1138>hmm
06:19<@peter1138>ok
06:19<@peter1138>never noticed
06:19<andythenorth>FISH ones smoke
06:19<andythenorth>default ones don't
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06:27<@planetmaker>Noldo, the 3rd one is infrastructure maintenance
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06:32<TGYoshi>Since you guys are so ultra-great in math (maybe) you probably know a line equation for this graph: http://imgur.com/Ly0y9
06:34<@planetmaker>TGYoshi, something like sin(x) - x
06:34<Celestar>yeah.
06:34<TGYoshi>Nice idea
06:35<Celestar>only the 45° sound wrong, don't they with sin(x) -x ?
06:35*Celestar fires up gnuplot
06:35<Noldo>http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=sin%28x%29+-+x+
06:35<TGYoshi>Cool, it seems to work
06:35<TGYoshi>thanks for now
06:36<TGYoshi>I guess I can figure the rest out
06:36<@planetmaker>probably a cosine, though ;-)
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06:36<Celestar>depends :P
06:37<@planetmaker>doesn't really matter ;-)
06:37<@planetmaker>cos(x) = sin(x+pi/2)
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06:38<Celestar>well
06:38<Celestar>the "graph" somehow misses an origin :P
06:38<Celestar>so it's hard to say :D
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06:39<@planetmaker>if you don't interpret the | and - as axis: yes
06:39<TGYoshi>mm
06:40<TGYoshi>The origin doesn´t matter
06:40<TGYoshi>It´s about the shape :P
06:40<Noldo>what are you using it for?
06:40<Celestar>oooh
06:40<Celestar>there is a scale
06:40<Celestar>1 and 3
06:41<TGYoshi>Such a shape for another shape
06:41<TGYoshi>The top of a 3d object got that shape
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06:54<TGYoshi>I guess the derivative of sin(x/2)-x/2 is cos(x/2)-1, isn´t it?
06:54<@planetmaker>no
06:54<@planetmaker>0.5 cos(x/2) - 0.5
06:54<TGYoshi>http://fooplot.com/index.php?&type0=0&type1=0&type2=0&type3=0&type4=0&y0=sin%28x/2%29-x/2&y1=cos%28x/2%29-1&y2=&y3=&y4=&r0=&r1=&r2=&r3=&r4=&px0=&px1=&px2=&px3=&px4=&py0=&py1=&py2=&py3=&py4=&smin0=0&smin1=0&smin2=0&smin3=0&smin4=0&smax0=2pi&smax1=2pi&smax2=2pi&smax3=2pi&smax4=2pi&thetamin0=0&thetamin1=0&thetamin2=0&thetamin3=0&thetamin4=0&thetamax0=2pi&thetamax1=2pi&thetamax2=2pi&thetamax3=2pi&thetamax4=2pi&ipw=0&ixmin=-5&ixmax=5&iymin=-3&iymax=3&igx=10&i
06:55<TGYoshi>gy=1&igl=1&igs=0&iax=1&ila=1&xmin=-15.919013330035359&xmax=12.416282533455792&ymin=-6.840751636862924&ymax=9.102743030313068
06:55<TGYoshi>lol
06:55<TGYoshi>aha
06:55<TGYoshi>Why that for the sin -> cos part?
06:56<Celestar>hm?
06:56<@planetmaker>[sin(a*x)]' = sin'(a*x) * [a*x]'
06:56<@planetmaker>chain rule for derivatives
06:57<Celestar>d/dx [a(b(x))] = d/dx [a(b(x)] + d/dx b(x)
06:57<Celestar>wtb [Tex]
06:57<@planetmaker>:-)
06:57<Noldo>I put a function in your fuction so you can...
06:58<TGYoshi>Oh, of course, got it. Thanks :3
06:59<Celestar>and erm
06:59<Celestar>s/+/*
06:59*andythenorth writes a fuction
07:03<@peter1138>i once had link to a full-window browser-javascript-based graphing thing
07:03<@peter1138>i can't remember it :(
07:04<Eddi|zuHause>hm... i must be in the wrong channel...
07:06-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-4d008b83.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd
07:07<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: why?
07:07<andythenorth>no never-ending discussion?
07:07<TGYoshi>We can start another discussion about 0/0 if you prefer
07:09<TGYoshi>Anyway, I´m off to school ... [a]
07:14<CIA-6>OpenTTD: frosch * r23228 /trunk/src/fileio.cpp: -Fix (r23227): FileScanner::Scan() still did not scan all required directories for basesets.
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07:29<Celestar>bah
07:29*Celestar thinks he's getting ill
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07:41<Eddi|zuHause>"Schönheit (denn gesund wirst du von allein)" :p
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07:58<@peter1138>i've got a bug report, fast forward isn't very fast with lots of ais!!!!
07:59<andythenorth>buy a bigger box :P
07:59<andythenorth>are the AIs MP aware?
07:59*andythenorth can guess the answer
08:01<frosch123>andythenorth: i don't think ais team up against the humans in mp
08:01<andythenorth>I should have said multi-threaded :P
08:02<@planetmaker>they aren't
08:02<andythenorth>I win my bet
08:02<@planetmaker>good. Here's a hazelnut
08:02<@planetmaker>Other prices are currently out ;-)
08:06<andythenorth>thanks
08:06<andythenorth>where's Eddi|zuHause when I need him? :)
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08:17<Eddi|zuHause>eating
08:21<andythenorth>:)
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09:36<@Belugas>hello
09:48<@peter1138>hi
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09:55<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: so what's the emergency?
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10:08<Eddi|zuHause>hm... cost... with lack of comprehensive lists of real costs, maybe: purchase cost based on engine type and weight, running costs based on power and top speed?
10:14<TWerkhoven>sounds sensible
10:19<Eddi|zuHause>how often is the running cost callback called?
10:21<@planetmaker>start/stop. Depot and railtype probably
10:21<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: pikka has a really nice blog post about how he calculates costs
10:21<Eddi|zuHause>link?
10:22*andythenorth looks
10:22<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i'm fairly sure it's more often than that
10:22<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: this, and some related posts on his blog: http://pikkabird.livejournal.com/16815.html
10:23<frosch123>running cost callback is called constantly
10:23<andythenorth>http://pikkabird.livejournal.com/15036.html
10:23<frosch123>once per day for a vehicle iirc
10:24<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: for FISH I have costs from a spreadsheet, sounds complicated, but isn't really
10:24<andythenorth>I use things like number of crew, weight, type of fuel for running costs
10:25<@planetmaker>andythenorth, the whole CETS is from a single spreadsheet ;-)
10:25<@planetmaker>every single frigging property :-P
10:25<andythenorth>with multipliers for insane things like hovercraft powered by gas turbines
10:25<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: now i need persistent storage of the motion counter to determine the amount of tiles moved between two calls
10:25<@peter1138>CETS looks nice
10:25<@peter1138>can't wait for it to be playable :)
10:25*andythenorth needs a new trainset
10:26<andythenorth>canset?
10:26<andythenorth>no canset :P
10:26<@peter1138>lol
10:26<@peter1138>you scuppered that one
10:26<andythenorth>all my fault
10:26<andythenorth>me
10:26<andythenorth>I did it
10:26<@peter1138>yup, all your fault
10:26<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: you know that I take your comment about me in canset thread as a compliment?
10:26<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: don't you think you overcomplicate stuff?
10:27<andythenorth>what else is stuff for, if not over-complicating :P
10:27<frosch123>the driver is paid on time, and not of distance traveled
10:27<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: my idea is that rather than running cost per year, i'd have running cost per tile
10:27<@planetmaker>ehm... why *that*?
10:27<@planetmaker>Do it per day and by velocity
10:27<Eddi|zuHause>e.g. fuel costs
10:27<andythenorth>related to distance travel
10:27<@planetmaker>it's equivalent
10:27<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: you should also check slope
10:28<andythenorth>I think pikka checks whether the vehicle is accelerating (there's a var for that?)
10:28<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: afair pikka's scheme fails when the max speed of the track is lower than the max speed of the engine
10:29<andythenorth>oh, so he checks speed against maximum?
10:29<andythenorth>and assumes acceleration otherwise
10:30<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: pikkas post doesn't contain any technical information, though
10:30<frosch123>pikka checks speed for != 0
10:31<andythenorth>pikka says " Incidentally, the technical specs and subroutines for the variable running costs in NARS are available if anyone wants to use them in their own sets."
10:31<frosch123>0 for stopped, FAIL for running (i.e. propertY)
10:31<andythenorth>does the game actually know the power output of the vehicle at this point?
10:31<andythenorth>the physics does, in some sense
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10:34<frosch123>ttd physics assume constant power output
10:34<frosch123>only limited by te, but independent of speed
10:35<Eddi|zuHause>so what speed is 1 tile per day?
10:35<@peter1138>1 tile per day
10:36<@peter1138>16 subunits
10:36<@peter1138>74 ticks?
10:36<@peter1138>iirc, 1 subunit / tick = 60 mph
10:36<frosch123>maybe 16 mph is one tile per day
10:37<Eddi|zuHause>blatant use of half-knowledge, if grf-speed-units = added to subspeed, advance 1 unit every time it overflows
10:37<frosch123>@calc 16*256 / 74
10:37<@DorpsGek>frosch123: 55.3513513514
10:37<@Terkhen>hello
10:38<frosch123>would match about 60
10:38<Eddi|zuHause>then every 74 ticks you must move 16*256=4096 "subspeed" units in 74 ticks
10:38<Eddi|zuHause>err... whatever
10:38<Eddi|zuHause>55km/h-ish?
10:38<@peter1138>hmm, sorry, what was the real question? :S
10:38*andythenorth gets lost trying to do physics
10:39<frosch123>yeah, km/h-ish, not mph
10:39<andythenorth>running cost directly proportional to fuel consumption?
10:39<andythenorth>maybe not
10:39<@peter1138>yeah
10:39<Eddi|zuHause>no, wait, a train advances twice per tick
10:39*andythenorth will go back to making email newsletters :P
10:40<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 16*256 / 74/2
10:40<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 27.6756756757
10:42<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, looks like 55km/h equals around 2 tiles per day
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10:55<@peter1138>vehicle movement code is confusing
10:55<@peter1138>speed * 3 / 4?
10:56<@peter1138>i just have to keep reminding myself that it's a game and it doesn't need precision
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10:58<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: a tile is 668.(216) km, so 668.(216)/24 km/h
10:59<@peter1138>:D
10:59<Rubidium>hmm, sorry... mixing up numbers ;) 664.(216) km-ish or 668 km
10:59<Rubidium>quite simple math though
11:00<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 668/24
11:00<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 27.8333333333
11:00<Eddi|zuHause>so an ingame day has 27h? :)
11:00<Eddi|zuHause>ah, no, misread you
11:00<Rubidium>no
11:01<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 664.216/24
11:01<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 27.6756666667
11:01<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 664.216216/24
11:01<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 27.6756756667
11:01*andythenorth ponders running cost using consist weight as a factor
11:01<Eddi|zuHause>so yes, that's around the same value
11:01<andythenorth>also...rolling resistance of vehicles :P
11:02<Rubidium>http://wiki.openttd.org/Game_mechanics#Vehicle_speeds <- for the more thorough definition ;)
11:02<andythenorth>also, requirement for brakemen, drivers mates, etc
11:02<andythenorth>also man with red flag walking in front of vehicle
11:03<andythenorth>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locomotive_Acts
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11:29<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: Unless I calculated it totally wrong for YACD, 128 km/h-ish means 1 tick / lu
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11:31<TomyLobo>hi
11:31<TomyLobo>is there an alternate graphics set for toyland?
11:31<TomyLobo>the default one in opengfx is kinda crappy
11:33<SpComb>yes, there's the temperate, desert and arctic ones
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11:34<TomyLobo>but i've played them all
11:34<TomyLobo>i want to play with toyland's industry chains, vehicles etc
11:37<andythenorth>meh
11:37<andythenorth>toyland
11:38<TomyLobo>but especially the empty terrain is confusing and eyecancery
11:39<frosch123>then you never played with the original toyland :p
11:40<@planetmaker>toyland2mars conversion ;-)
11:40<frosch123>http://www.openttd.org/en/screenshot/0.4.8/toyland <- ogfx is so much better than that
11:40<TomyLobo>planetmaker hehe nah
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11:41<TomyLobo>frosch123 woah you're right
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11:50<@Terkhen>yes, ogfx is actually the good one
11:50<@Terkhen>if you don't like it, the only other option is probably toyland2mars
11:53<TomyLobo>but that gives me temperate vehicles and industries
11:54<TomyLobo>ages ago, i've seen a graph with all the industries in a climate. i think it was on the wiki, but i cant find it anymore
11:56<@planetmaker>TomyLobo: additionally then use ogfx+trains with the right parameters, if you like toyland trains
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11:58<TGYoshi>Err, playing in toyland?
11:58<TGYoshi>Why does it even exist..
11:59<TomyLobo>http://wiki.openttd.org/Cargo found it \o/
12:00<@planetmaker>TGYoshi: because it's a nice and unique climate
12:01<TGYoshi>Yay...
12:01<TGYoshi>It´s what you call nice ;)
12:01<Eddi|zuHause>well... if that crazy NUTS were to get off the ground, it could be a nice toyland set
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12:54<@planetmaker>what's in newgrf the result of an actionD which divides a/a for a == 0?
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12:59<frosch123>if the specs say nothing, then it is undefined
13:00<@planetmaker>I didn't find anything
13:00<+glx>and what does the code say ?
13:01<frosch123>looks like both ottd and ttdp return a for a/0
13:01<@planetmaker>I didn't yet look, glx ;-)
13:01<frosch123>grfact.asm:3301
13:01<frosch123>newgrf.cpp:6486
13:01<@planetmaker>so 0/0 = 0
13:02<frosch123>yes
13:02<@planetmaker>and 2/2 = 1
13:02<@planetmaker>so a/a is basically a test of a != 0
13:02<frosch123>yeah :p
13:02<frosch123>who uses it like that? :p
13:02<Eddi|zuHause>you'd be crazy to rely on that
13:03<@planetmaker>I think NML does: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/760/
13:03<@planetmaker>I try to understand why not all parameter to swedish rails work like they should. But I fail to see a fault in my code there, so I thought to look at NFO level
13:04<@planetmaker>(line 10 in the paste)
13:04<frosch123>why are you not using grf2html for that?
13:04<@planetmaker>good question :-)
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13:05<@planetmaker>I probably should install it :-)
13:05<@planetmaker>or rather make it known in the path
13:08<@planetmaker>errm...
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13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: translators * r23229 /trunk/src/lang/hungarian.txt:
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: hungarian - 1 changes by IPG
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13:48<TomyLobo>do power stations ever disappear?
13:49<@planetmaker>default: no
13:49<z-MaTRiX>hi
13:49<z-MaTRiX>:)
13:49<@planetmaker>newgrf: depends
13:49<TomyLobo>is it a config option?
13:49<TomyLobo>ah
13:49<z-MaTRiX>what is your opinion of an 64MB ati 9000 agp card?
13:49<z-MaTRiX>(under linux)
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14:18*andythenorth ponders what to do
14:19<z-MaTRiX>andythenorth<< play openttd? :)
14:20<andythenorth>nah
14:20<andythenorth>hmm
14:20<andythenorth>peter1138 wanted a network game of something
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14:28<appe>hm
14:29<appe>i cant seem to find a grf containing antonov 225.
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14:31<@planetmaker>search the russian forums
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14:35*andythenorth does work
14:36<andythenorth>why are the tram offsets wrong? I guess I should read the code :P
14:40<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23230 /trunk/src/console_cmds.cpp: -Codechange: stupid casing for UnPause. It's a single word, not two words "CamelCased" after eachother
14:41<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: either your sprite offsets are wrong, or tram rails are misaligned
14:41<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: could be either
14:41<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: in theory, road vehicles and trams should have the exact same alignment
14:42<andythenorth>let me screenshot
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14:44<MNIM>Appe: I thought av8 had one?
14:45<MNIM>or was that the 124?
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14:46<appe>not what i can see
14:47<@peter1138>andythenorth, yes, YAIM/YAEZ/YACD/YAMA :D
14:48<andythenorth>peter1138: and YACS :P
14:48<@peter1138>wouldn't have be a grf set?
14:48<andythenorth>he
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14:50<andythenorth>so I need to build some patches and crap
14:51<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/2092/trams_offsets.png
14:52<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: what if you let that same vehicle drive on roads?
14:53<Eddi|zuHause>and compare it with trucks?
14:53*andythenorth tries
14:53<CIA-6>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r23231 /trunk/src/newgrf_engine.cpp: -Fix: [NewGRF] Make train var 0xF3 consistent with TTDPatch.
14:56<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: inconclusive
14:57<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/2093/tram_offsets_2.png
14:57<andythenorth>the correct answer could be 'my tram is drawn too narrow'
14:57<andythenorth>:|
14:57<MNIM>Well, it looks to me like the tram going down is offset too low
14:58<andythenorth>yes, it obscures the rail
14:58<andythenorth>and the one going up is too high
15:04<andythenorth>peter1138: where's YAEZ? And YAMA?
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15:12<@peter1138>pass ;)
15:12<andythenorth>meh :D
15:12<@peter1138>andythenorth, fix your sprite offsets ;)
15:13<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: if you make the tram narrower, of course you have to compensate the offsets
15:13<andythenorth>bah
15:14<andythenorth>now I can't just reuse angles :P
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15:17<@peter1138>:)
15:18<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: but the truck doesn't seem to have correct offsets either
15:18<andythenorth>where's the code that lets me set different offset according to drive side?
15:18<andythenorth>is there a varact 2 for that?
15:18*andythenorth looks
15:19<Eddi|zuHause>that should be one of the TTDPatch flags
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15:19*andythenorth looks
15:20<andythenorth>hmm
15:21<andythenorth>wiki doesn't know about a var I can check for 'drive side' - only a string
15:22<MNIM>D:
15:22<andythenorth>with drive on right - offsets look ok
15:22<MNIM>wat de
15:22<MNIM>ottd just crashed on me
15:22<andythenorth>so I need to write custom real sprites with different offsets for drive on left
15:22<andythenorth>and use action 7 or so
15:22<andythenorth>or...
15:23<@planetmaker>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/GlobalVariables <-- VarAction2 06
15:23<MNIM>hmmmh.
15:23<MNIM>again
15:23<@planetmaker>or action7 86
15:23*MNIM blames the newgrfs
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15:29<andythenorth>planetmaker: thanks
15:30<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23232 /trunk/ (8 files in 4 dirs): -Change: move the "default" overrides out of the baseset in order to ensure they all use the same values
15:31<andythenorth>is adjusting the offsets in the newgrf the correct solution?
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15:47<CIA-6>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r23233 /trunk/src/ (9 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: Refactor maximum and actually transported cargo amount of towns into a reusable struct.
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16:06*andythenorth ponders why RV offsets are treated differently for RHS and LHS drive
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16:06<Eddi|zuHause>it's to do with the bounding box. the center of the bounding box is not the anchor point of the sprite
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16:07*andythenorth reads code
16:07<Eddi|zuHause>if it were, the offsets would be the same
16:07<Eddi|zuHause>but the anchor point is the back (invisible) corner of the bounding box, so if you make the vehicle narrower than the bounding box, you must adjust the offset
16:08<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: i already told that that is not the case for vehicles
16:08<frosch123>the anchor point for vehicle sprites is indeed the center of vehicle (on ground)
16:10<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: then why is the anchor point different for the / view depending on the travel direction?
16:11<frosch123>for trains it is 4/8 from the front of the vehicle
16:11<andythenorth>I don't mind if the answer is 'code custom offsets in the grf'
16:11<frosch123>independent of vehicle length
16:11<andythenorth>^^ just seems a bit odd
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16:11<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: and coincidentally that difference matches exactly the offset between the corners of the bounding box
16:11<frosch123>though that might change when fs#???? gets fixed
16:11<frosch123>which we should imo do, before grfs start to rely on that bug :p
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16:12<LordAro>evening
16:12<andythenorth>hi LordAro
16:13<Eddi|zuHause>you mean fs#3569?
16:13<Eddi|zuHause>this has nothing to do with that
16:13<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: what you mean is the position of the vehicle on the map
16:13<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: that is indeed the center of the bounding box
16:13<frosch123>UpdateDeltaXY defines the offset between the bounding box back corner, and the vehicle position
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16:14<frosch123>hmm, ok, that way...
16:14<frosch123>yeah, you might be right then
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16:19<andythenorth>so it's not an easy thing to transform according to drive side?
16:19<andythenorth>I have to check and adjust each vehicle?
16:20<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: it should be the same for all vehicles
16:20<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: as long as they are drawn to the same width scale
16:20<andythenorth>so ott could do the transform?
16:20<andythenorth>oh
16:20<andythenorth>no then
16:21<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: all this offset and length mess might be a good thing for grfv8
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16:23*andythenorth contemplates disabling HEQS if drive side is 'left'
16:23<andythenorth>but that's rather an odd idea
16:24<@planetmaker>:-P
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16:25<frosch123>would have expected the reverse behaviour from andy
16:25<andythenorth>in my test (so far) the issue only shows up for LH drive
16:25<andythenorth>I haven't tested all angles
16:25<andythenorth>now I've noticed it, it's bugging me :P
16:25<andythenorth>most people won't care
16:26<frosch123>most people drive on the right anyway
16:26<andythenorth>changing drive side in my game - explains why I've more than once gone through HEQS and tweaked all offsets, thinking 'how did I get it so wrong?'
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16:27<Eddi|zuHause>there has been some remote island that switched from right to left
16:29<LordAro>frosch123: most people drive on the wrong side of the road ;)
16:29*Belugas drives at the center of the road
16:29<frosch123>well, it's generally best to drive on that side of the road, which the other cars driving in your direction choose
16:30<@planetmaker>not that easy though ;-)
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>occasionally people fail at that
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>but it appears only germans actually have a word for that :p
16:32<@planetmaker>oh, it was quite weired when I turned right from a one-way road and wondered why on the next traffic lights all cars were facing the direction towards me... until I noticed that I better and quickly drive two lanes further left ;-)
16:33<andythenorth>hmm
16:33<Eddi|zuHause>haha :p
16:33<andythenorth>none if this will get my email newsletter written :P
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jqz0YTq9hQ
16:34*andythenorth wants to do a good day's work, and is running out of day to do it with
16:34<@Terkhen>doing nothing can also be very satisfying when done sparingly :P
16:35<@planetmaker>you should quote links with http:// , Eddi|zuHause
16:35<Eddi|zuHause>only if your url parser is stupid
16:36<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: did czech drive on left before ww2?
16:36<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: whole of (former) austria drove on left
16:37<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: the germans tried to "clean up" that mess
16:39<Eddi|zuHause>they didn't quite finish the job with austrian railways. up to now, in some regions in austria trains drive on the left
16:40<frosch123>hmm, according to wiki, it was "left" everywhere, before napolean messed it up
16:40<frosch123>though it does not mention the reasoning of napoleon
16:40<@Terkhen>yes, it is a stupid mess that acomplishes nothing
16:41<Eddi|zuHause>in france, trains also drive on the left
16:41<Eddi|zuHause>except in alsace
16:42<+glx>and metro drive on the right so trains can't use the network IIRC
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16:57<andythenorth>I should raise a fs ticket about offsets and drive side? Or it's an issue for HEQS?
16:59<Rubidium>I'd argue the offsets are the same as in TTDPatch, so they match the specs
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16:59<Rubidium>even though one might argue the specs are wrong on that point
17:00<andythenorth>I can make it a HEQS issue
17:00<Rubidium>however, changing those specs without breaking older NewGRFs is (IMO) way too much work, which is basically why FS#3569 is still not fixed (and probably won't be fixed)
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17:00<andythenorth>nml could fix it?
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>no
17:01<andythenorth>no way to write every real sprite twice, with a transform on the offsets?
17:01<andythenorth>then branch?
17:02<andythenorth>according to drive side
17:03<@planetmaker>of course you could give different offsets for different variable values
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17:04<@planetmaker>but you can do that in nfo, too
17:04<andythenorth>only manually :|
17:04<Eddi|zuHause>you do that once in your template
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17:05<andythenorth>I'd have to ditch action 3 for cargos
17:05<andythenorth>and do cargo graphics switch on a varact 2 instead
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>why?
17:06<@planetmaker>no, why?
17:07<@planetmaker>the action3 would link to a lhs / rhs drive switch which has the graphics for that particular cargo
17:07<andythenorth>that's a lot of switches :P
17:07<andythenorth>still, could be templated
17:08<andythenorth>and most of the offsets are defines already
17:08<andythenorth>so it's possible
17:08<andythenorth>if I do this, will you fix ottd in future and screw my grf?
17:08<@planetmaker>the switch would be part of the template
17:09<andythenorth>yup
17:09<andythenorth>I can see how to do it
17:09<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: no, GRF specs are guaranteed to be backwards compatible
17:09<andythenorth>meh
17:10<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: except grfv8 for the next ~2 month
17:10<andythenorth>writing code is fun anyway
17:10<andythenorth>I should update the newgrf wiki with information about this
17:11<andythenorth>it's another little piece of live ordnance for newgrf authors
17:13<andythenorth>trip over it and it will explode all over your face :P
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17:17<andythenorth>good night
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17:53<@Terkhen>good night
17:55<@planetmaker>good night
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18:22<frosch123>night
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19:11<TomyLobo>i just sent a train to service
19:11<TomyLobo>it came out of the shed with 99% reliability
19:11<TomyLobo>and broke down 3 tiles later -_-
19:17<Eddi|zuHause>they do that, yes
19:20<DabuYu>i often run with the option 'disable breakdowns' - i find breakdowns highly annoying and not really realistic...
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---Logclosed Wed Nov 16 00:00:38 2011