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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-11-25

---Logopened Fri Nov 25 00:00:27 2011
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03:17<@peter1138>oh dear
03:17<@peter1138>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/RailtypeLabels
03:17<@peter1138>o_O
03:18<Xaroth>I don't get ti :P
03:18<Xaroth>it, even.
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03:20<dihedral>good morning
03:20<@peter1138>why do they make so many different types for the same thing :(
03:20<@peter1138>TRPD transrapid track Transrapid track type
03:20<@peter1138>^^ MGLV
03:21<Xaroth>I think XKCD made a nice comic about that one
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03:29<@planetmaker>peter1138: the use of railtypes is not quite clearly defined: should it unique per track type or unique per "traction" type
03:30<@planetmaker>where traction is broader as to also distinguish speed or axle weight
03:30<@peter1138>planetmaker, the slow/med/fast stuff is all fine
03:31<@peter1138>but the DB*/TRPD/FR* stuff is plain unnecessary
03:33<@planetmaker>I fully agree
03:33<@peter1138>and the MTR* stuff is all a horrible hack
03:34<@planetmaker>though the db* stuff is supposed to rather represent an axle weight scheme - thus there might be some sense. As there is some sense for NG labels
03:34<@peter1138>MTRO -> 3RDR o_O
03:34<@peter1138>narrow gauge, definitely
03:35<@planetmaker>all the FR* are supposed to be NG
03:36<@planetmaker>thus "wrong" labels
03:36<@planetmaker>but if we wanted a use of RT labels similar to cargo labels, we'd have to define a somewhat canonical ensemble of labels to be used
03:37<@planetmaker>and not let every track author define his or her own.
03:38<Xaroth>peter1138: http://xkcd.com/927/
03:40<@planetmaker>hehe, yeah, that's a good one
03:40<@planetmaker>peter1138: the "problem" is that railtypes can be used as
03:40<@planetmaker>a) just an internal name w/o much meaning and using the compatible railtype list
03:41<@planetmaker>b) as a semi-canonical label which defines tracks which somewhat match what the label stands for
03:42<@planetmaker>there was an idea of the property of an "equivalent" railtype label list
03:42<@planetmaker>which gives vehicle sets the chance to focus on a somewhat canonical subset
03:44<@peter1138>did we ever have a weight limit property?
03:44<@peter1138>i don't think it could work actually, heh
03:45<@peter1138>hmm, only as an average
03:46<@peter1138>and then loading algorithms would need adjusting... god... no...
03:46<@planetmaker>there's no such property, no
03:46<@planetmaker>it'd need support by vehicles in the first place
03:47<@planetmaker>but can still be done with a trainset which supports the appropriate labels
03:47<@planetmaker>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2763
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03:57<@peter1138>anyone fancy add zoom in/out buttons to the sprite viewer? :)
03:57<Celestar>\o
04:03<@Alberth>o/
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04:08<@planetmaker>peter1138: the sprite aligner is also a bit broken... I need to click 4x to have the sprite move 1px at normal zoom level
04:08<@planetmaker>while the number goes up with each click
04:08<@planetmaker>(it shows the zoomed-in sprites for 4x though
04:08<@planetmaker>)
04:08<@peter1138>planetmaker, yeah the alignment is for 4x sprites
04:09<@peter1138>i'm wondering about alignment now, though
04:09<@planetmaker>imho it should be for the current zoom-level
04:09<@planetmaker>no zoom-selector then needed
04:09<@planetmaker>aligning a sprite of a non-active zoom-level seems stupid
04:09<@peter1138>zoom level of which viewport ;)
04:10<@planetmaker>main
04:11<@peter1138>wondering how per-zoom level sprite size/offsets would work
04:12<Celestar>where was the option to reverse mouse scrolling
04:12<@peter1138>interface -> interaction
04:13<Celestar>ta
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04:23<@peter1138>heh, these 32bpp-ez sprites have incorrect palettes for the mask sprites
04:29<@peter1138>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=57460 < cry
04:31<@planetmaker>what? that EJ fails on reading comprehension?
04:32<@planetmaker>hm... or is he right after all? :-)
04:33<@peter1138>eh, i meant the original post. hmm.
04:35<@planetmaker>hm, the OP writes TTD, not OpenTTD. Maybe EJ is right after all :-)
04:35<@planetmaker>never underestimate stupidity, it seems
04:36<appe>"EJ"?
04:41<@Alberth>appe: look at the initial letters of the name of the final post author
04:42<appe>ah, i see
04:42<appe>i must say
04:42<appe>you have the cutest forum on the web.
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05:58<andythenorth>morfing
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05:58<@planetmaker>salut andythenorth
05:59<@planetmaker>I'm afraid the worst assumption in that thread was right, peter1138 ;-)
05:59<@Alberth>efenik andy
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06:09<@peter1138>hmm, resizable spriteviewer window?
06:09<lugo>i'm wondering, if r23321 was commited 16 hours ago, how could it have been released on 2011-11-23 like stated on http://www.openttd.org/en/download-trunk ?
06:10<@planetmaker>peter1138: why resizable?
06:10<@peter1138>cos 4x sprites don't fit :p
06:10<@planetmaker>:-D
06:10<@peter1138>well, not too important
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06:11<@planetmaker>seems like an off-by-one-day, lugo ;-)
06:11<@planetmaker>^ TrueBrain ?
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06:18<TrueBrain>I have no clue what so ever. The CF puts the right date in the file, and during transfer I receive a file of a day earlier
06:18<TrueBrain>go figure :S
06:19<dihedral>summer time?
06:20<dihedral>... because summer time is exactly one day, not one hour ...
06:20<dihedral>ops
06:21<@Alberth>someone has been playing with a time machine :p
06:21<TrueBrain>the odd part is that finger is correct .. which is also deduced from the same information
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06:22<@Alberth>that would point to the FS info being correct, imho
06:23<@Alberth>timezone of the website?
06:23<TrueBrain>no timezone is -24
06:28<@Alberth>you need only -20 or so
06:28<TrueBrain>no, it is exactly -24
06:28<TrueBrain>added some debug statements, we will see tonight what it thinks it is doing :P
06:28<@Alberth>:)
06:29*Alberth keeps fingers X-ed tonight
06:29<@planetmaker>meh... just recreated an hour-long a patch which I thought I had lost. And now I find it :S
06:30<TrueBrain>it seems it takes the relased.txt of last night, which would be odd .. meh, we will see
06:30<TrueBrain>poor planetmaker :(
06:32<@peter1138>is the recreation better?
06:34<@planetmaker>they're identical except some variable names
06:34<@planetmaker>I still knew quite exactly what I needed / was looking for
06:35<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23323 /trunk/src/town_cmd.cpp: -Fix: when you fund a town, it should grow; goals reached or not
06:40*andythenorth had some thoughts about industries and GS
06:40<andythenorth>there is some stuff that really should be delegated to GS, e.g. closure
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06:44<@planetmaker>andythenorth: we had the idea to introduce a callback for industries for that purpose
06:45<andythenorth>some parts of industries need to be a black box (e.g. production)
06:45<andythenorth>or we need to move to industry code being provided by GS rather than newgrf
06:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r23324 /trunk/src/spriteloader/grf.cpp: -Fix (r15555): Don't free reusable buffer.
06:45<andythenorth>which might be better long term
06:46<andythenorth>a goal script *should* be able to control industry production
06:46<andythenorth>but currently that's insane
06:46<TrueBrain>it would be nice if it can *hint* increase/decrease
06:46<andythenorth>indeed
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06:46<andythenorth>industries are quite a detailed problem
06:46<andythenorth>maybe a spec...
06:47<andythenorth>maybe later :P
06:47<TrueBrain>but given the amount of shit already in newgrfs, it would be (kinda) impossible to make it more than hinting :)
06:47<andythenorth>so break newgrfs
06:47*andythenorth doesn't care about breaking newgrfs
06:48<TrueBrain>sadly, you are not the only grf author :P
06:48<andythenorth>newgrfs are fragile because the APIs are fragile in place
06:48<andythenorth>we can't fix the APIs without breaking stuff
06:48<@peter1138>industry classes...
06:48<andythenorth>fortunately I am not the only grf author :P
06:48<andythenorth>classes. lol :P
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07:31<@peter1138>these CETS wagons turn a bit oddly
07:31<@peter1138>i guess due to michi's changes?
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07:35<+michi_cc>peter1138: Probably. The graphic offsets were quite specifically tuned to the old behaviour.
07:37<@peter1138>*nod*
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07:52<@planetmaker>the zoom levels are really nice, peter1138 :-)
07:52<@planetmaker>just makes me find many small sprite glitches :-(
07:56<@peter1138>minor sorting/position issues or hugely in the wrong place issues? heh
07:56<@Alberth>a fresh pair of eyes sees many errors :)
08:01<CIA-6>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r23325 /trunk/src/screenshot.cpp: -Fix (r23316): World screenshot was incorrectly positioned.
08:02<@planetmaker>peter1138: mostly I found some small position errors. But also that the animations of industries differ in pixels where they shouldn't
08:03<@planetmaker>It doesn't show on normal zoom. But looks funky when zoomed in
08:03<@planetmaker>like the animation of the coal mine shaft
08:03<@peter1138>yeah, some things are known wrong, i'm working on them :)
08:03<@planetmaker>not your fault. It's all sprites what I meant
08:04<@peter1138>?
08:04<@planetmaker>look at the opengfx coalmine for example
08:04<@peter1138>oh
08:04<@planetmaker>There are pixels changing colour slightly which should not
08:04<@planetmaker>it didn't really show before, though. At least not to me
08:05<@peter1138>lol
08:05<@peter1138>yeah
08:05<@peter1138>the dithering :)
08:05<@planetmaker>yup
08:05<@planetmaker>same with basically all other animations
08:05<@planetmaker>more or less
08:05<@Alberth>lots of work :(
08:05<@planetmaker>yeah :S
08:06<@peter1138>even so, there are some offsets that are wrong still :)
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08:09<@peter1138>Trunk uses 32bpp sprites just fine. Same as it does for years. Literally.
08:09<@peter1138>damn right
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08:48<@peter1138>does nml understand 32bpp pngs?
08:48<@peter1138>as in for openttd to load, not to compile into the newgrf
08:50<Hirundo>NML supports 32bpp, it used to work for both normal and EZ sprites
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08:52<@planetmaker>it's mostly untested, though
08:54<Hirundo>I don't know if NML needs changing after the recent changes to ottd
08:56<Eddi|zuHause><peter1138> these CETS wagons turn a bit oddly <-- haven't gotten around to adjusting it yet
08:56<Eddi|zuHause>possibly i need to completely revamp the "slicing" system
08:56<andythenorth>wrt to industries and GS
08:56<@planetmaker>Hirundo: so far wrt sprite handling nothing changed
08:57<andythenorth>we probably need to look at how GS can influence:
08:57<@planetmaker>no new zoom level sprites yet accepted
08:57<andythenorth>- production multiplier
08:57<andythenorth>- automatic production multiplier handling
08:57<andythenorth>- cb28 (but probably not 2f)
08:57<andythenorth>- cb22
08:58<andythenorth>- cb29
08:58*andythenorth needs to have a think.
08:58<andythenorth>newgrf industries *should* be able to cede a reasonable amount of control to GS, but it needs a clean boundary
09:00<@Alberth>'need more/less cargo X' ?
09:01<Noldo>what is GS?
09:01<Eddi|zuHause>maybe we should scratch the idea of changing industry production, since the GameScript has no idea what the cargos actually represent
09:01<@Alberth>adjustment of probabilities?
09:01<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: +1
09:02<andythenorth>unless game scripts are tied to a specific newgrf...
09:02<andythenorth>which they could be
09:02<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: which will horribly break once you have different versions of the game script and the newgrf
09:02<@Alberth>Noldo: game script
09:03<Noldo>how concrete is that thing?
09:03<@Alberth>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=57431
09:04<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: agreed
09:05<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: place of building is a scenario thing, isn't it?
09:05<andythenorth>it's also incredibly tiresome if every GS has to try and fix industry closure
09:05<andythenorth>which is currently broken
09:06<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: yes, but scenario editor can only do initial placement, the rest is up to the game script
09:06<@planetmaker>why is it broken, andythenorth?
09:06<andythenorth>planetmaker: have you experienced mass closure ever? :)
09:06<andythenorth>is it annoying
09:06<andythenorth>?
09:06<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: I was thinking to define areas where you can create certain industries.
09:06<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: what i had in mind was e.g.: the game script marks some towns as "mining towns", and allows mines to only appear near these towns throughout the game
09:07<@planetmaker>I might have done so. But no, I so far had not much issue with industry closures
09:07<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: how would it know which are mines?
09:07<@planetmaker>with nor without newgrfs really
09:07<@planetmaker>not in any annoying way at least
09:07<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: "extractive" industries
09:07<@planetmaker>andythenorth: extractive type
09:07<andythenorth>so go by existing prop
09:07<andythenorth>makes good sense
09:07<andythenorth>+1
09:08<Eddi|zuHause>the station naming code has a similar calculation what constitutes a mine
09:09<andythenorth>so an industry has 'proprietary' (or private) information, and 'public' information
09:09<@Alberth>?
09:09<andythenorth>the code for processing has to be private
09:09<@Belugas>hi hello good day
09:09<@Alberth>andythenorth: makes sense
09:09<@Alberth>hi Belugas
09:09<andythenorth>that's a black box
09:09<andythenorth>from perspective of GS
09:10<@Belugas>sir Alberth, I salute ya
09:10*Alberth salutes to Belugas
09:11<@planetmaker>salute Belugas
09:11<Eddi|zuHause>suppose i have a TileIndex, what's the canonic way to get the X and Y coordinates (in game script)?
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09:12*Belugas salutes planetmaker as well :)
09:18<Xaroth>o/ Belugas
09:18<@Belugas>and Xaroth receives a salute as well
09:19<V453000>hello, is there an option to disable the extra zoom levels?
09:20<@planetmaker>yes. in the adv. settings
09:20<V453000>ah got it
09:20<V453000>thanks anyway
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09:21<Eddi|zuHause>... and what's the squirrel equivalent to python's "for i, x in enumerate(list)"?
09:21<@Belugas>fun... new feature comes in.. how to disable it... almost the same every time
09:21<@Belugas>just a simple observation, not ranting
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09:23<Xaroth>Eddi|zuHause: foreach (i, x in list) {} ?
09:23<Xaroth>Belugas: the extra zoom levels are quite.. intrusive, so I can totally understand V453000 :P
09:25<@Belugas>what do you mean?
09:25<@Belugas>and.. i said it was an observation, not a charge against the comment ;)
09:25<@planetmaker>if you zoom out and then back in, you easily go past the normal zoom
09:26<@planetmaker>esp. when doing so via scroll wheel or guesture
09:27<V453000>yes but one often zooms out to see the map, and then zoom in back. I constantly keep zooming in to 2x or 4x even instead of the desired 1x :)
09:28<V453000>and in the end, the extra zoom not really useful anyhow
09:28<V453000>as of now at least
09:28<V453000>well one could zoom in to discover some minor problems of some sprites which are normally invisible :D
09:35<lugo>what about ctrl+zoom-in/out = 1x?
09:36<@peter1138>it's useful
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09:37<@peter1138>1x can be an eyestrain on high resolutions, at least
09:37<@peter1138>and lcds suck for scaling, so...
09:37<@peter1138>but yes, those settings are there for a reason too :)
09:40<Xaroth>well zooming max the first time does give you instant-headache on 1920x1200 :P
09:40<Xaroth>but once you get used to it (and change the setting to max 2x) it's actually useful.
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10:05<@Alberth>lugo: then you immediately get requests to make the default configurable
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11:25<Eddi|zuHause>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Qsd0T1B3z4&feature=feedu <-- "minecraft, the movie" (german)
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12:34<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23326 /trunk/src/table/gameopt_settings.ini: -Fix [FS#4852] (r23239): snow line for very old savegames wasn't retrieved from the savegame anymore
12:35<Eddi|zuHause>is something like this possible in squirrel: "sign(x) == cmp(y,z)"?
12:35-!-Neon [~Neon@dslb-178-004-176-085.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd
12:36<Eddi|zuHause>as in "if (x<0 and y<z OR x>0 and y>z)"?
12:38-!-Zuu_ [~Zuu@2.64.65.114.mobile.tre.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:47<Zuu__>Does one of OR or AND operator have higher priority?
12:51<frosch123>AND is higher than OR in boolean context
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12:52<frosch123>in traditional computer science as well in those programming languages i know
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12:53<frosch123>don't mix bitwise with logical though
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13:00<z-MaTRiX>whhy not ?
13:00<z-MaTRiX>red rain will come?
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13:15<@Alberth>it will be great fun debugging such a mess
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13:33<Wolf01>evening
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13:37*andythenorth has been...pondering GS
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13:40<andythenorth>allowing GS to change industry production multiplier - yes/no?
13:41<Rubidium>directly change: no, influence the NewGRF/default behaviour: yes
13:42<frosch123>changing production multiplier, opening and closing towns are the things that should work from my pov
13:42<frosch123>direct change should work as well, except maybe for ecs
13:42<andythenorth>Rubidium: 'influence' via what mechanic?
13:42<frosch123>however, gs won't be able to prevent industries from closing or altering production theirself
13:43<andythenorth>I am 100% convinced that all of the production cb is out of scope for GS
13:43<Rubidium>frosch123: but then you have two competing systems influencing the production, which means stuff gets much harder to figure out when it goes wrong
13:43<frosch123>andythenorth: additional parameter in cb 29 or so, which gives a hint from the script
13:43<andythenorth>currently the game can come by and do that anyway
13:44<andythenorth>production multiplier is exposed to the game
13:45<andythenorth>why not just interpret return of 04 80 as 'do whatever game or GS tries to do'
13:45<andythenorth>with GS hooked to the production change
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: translators * r23327 /trunk/src/lang/ (8 files): (log message trimmed)
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: belarusian - 16 changes by KorneySan
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: finnish - 15 changes by jpx_
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: german - 8 changes by planetmaker
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: italian - 8 changes by lorenzodv
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: korean - 10 changes by junho2813
13:46<andythenorth>my idea doesn't actually achieve what I have in mind for GS at all :P
13:46<andythenorth>but it's sane
13:47<frosch123>changing the distribution of goods should also work. i think cargodest does that also somewhat
13:47<andythenorth>my idea is that GS should be able to (quite aggressively) force primary production up or down
13:47<andythenorth>frosch123: you mean cargo distributed to stations?
13:47<frosch123>the relation between "cargo distributed to stations" and "station rating"
13:48<andythenorth>yup
13:48<frosch123>currently it is 1:1, but with cargodest it is not afaik
13:48<andythenorth>that's also quite valid for newgrf to adjust - we have that code in FIRS...
13:48*andythenorth could do with some kind of diagram :P
13:49<andythenorth>for example, I think it's also totally valid for a GS to adjust vehicle intro dates, or reliability, or purchase costs
13:49<frosch123>anyway, both cargo callback (profit and station rating) have callback flags
13:49<@peter1138>cargo dest in gs? :p
13:49<frosch123>so we have actually a sane way to make the gs detect, whether some newgrf wants to control that
13:50<andythenorth>'[
13:50<frosch123>so, maybe we should just add some setting to control whether those callbacks are called, or whether the gs is caleld
13:50<frosch123>i never liked those callbacks anyway :p
13:50<andythenorth>they're not widely used afaik
13:50<andythenorth>we only just added them to FIRS
13:51<andythenorth>imho we're trying to do far too much stuff with FIRS
13:51<frosch123>hmm, though profit calculation might actually not work for gs
13:51<frosch123>it requires immediate response
13:51<frosch123>remains station rating
13:52<andythenorth>profit calculation or similar is actually something I would want to control for GS
13:52<Rubidium>(and by proxy industry rating ;), influencing industry production)
13:53<andythenorth>I want to provide spot price economy, which means localised control over cargo payments (or, as proxy, profits)
13:54<Rubidium>I think cargo payments happens way too often and is so fine grained that anything you want to do blows up in some way or another
13:54<andythenorth>can't be cached per town?
13:54<Rubidium>e.g. you are paid for (basically) each bit of cargo individually (and least when transfers and such are in the picture)
13:55<Rubidium>andythenorth: 32 cargos, 256 durations, ~4000 manhattan distances
13:57<Rubidium>which is a big potential amount of variableness for something to cache often
13:57<Rubidium>(like in a few hundred towns)
13:58<andythenorth>hmm ok
13:58<andythenorth>makes e
13:58<andythenorth>
13:58<andythenorth>sense
13:58<Rubidium>not even talking about the effects on transfer payments (you get a lot of the first leg, but the final town says you ought to get a lot less: massive loss for the last vehicle)
13:58<frosch123>hmm, gs could store some propotional factor for every cargotype at every station
13:59<frosch123>so, payment on cargoage etc. is grf controlled
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13:59<frosch123>while gs can decide than one town pays twice as much for goods than others do unter the same conditionjs
13:59<frosch123>hmm, transfers... :p
13:59<Rubidium>frosch123: which brings us back to transfers
14:00<Rubidium>making losses for no apparant reasons, except that the GS decided that it virtually paid a lot for delivering in B and near nothing for delivering in C
14:00<Rubidium>although that can be "solved" when you know what C will be
14:01<Rubidium>as then you always use C as the payment reference instead of the current station
14:01<andythenorth>with town control, GS could stick something on the town, the profit cb can run from that
14:01<andythenorth>transfers are always tricky :P
14:02<andythenorth>as is the idea of 'every vehicle must make a profit'
14:02<frosch123>well, gs should be able to control the highscore
14:03<frosch123>there is no newgrf callback for highscores yet :p
14:03<frosch123>or does firs fancy to use newhighscores? :p
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14:03<andythenorth>firs already does too much :P
14:03<andythenorth>way too much
14:04<Rubidium>pff, let them first do HD ;)
14:04<andythenorth>currently 'industry newgrf' is synonymous with 'economy newgrf'
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14:07<andythenorth>Rubidium: in the transfer case, why doesn't that problem happen when newgrf controls profit cb?
14:08<Rubidium>it is possible that it happens there as well, but there is no location awareness
14:08<Rubidium>so it will always happen
14:08<Rubidium>and if it would happen, then people would be able to notice that they get significantly less for transporting stuff far away than to transport it locally
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14:13<andythenorth>ok
14:13<andythenorth>so the 'problem' with spot price economy is that transport companies aren't paid that way
14:13<andythenorth>they're paid by tonmile
14:13<andythenorth>etc
14:13<andythenorth>so maybe it's a bad idea. but it would be fun :P
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14:14<andythenorth>*dist is probably a better way of modelling supply and demand
14:16<Zuu_>And faster than Squirrel.
14:18<andythenorth>GS being able to influence *dist is attractive though
14:18<andythenorth>or GS -> influencing town -> town influencing *dist
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14:21<andythenorth>dealing with industry stuff and GS is brain ache
14:25*andythenorth is also wondering if FIRS 'economies' should be dropped as an idea
14:25<andythenorth>and ceded to GS, via cb 22
14:27<@planetmaker>TrueBrain: what happens when I create a map w/o a goal script being present but then load the game with a server which has one?
14:27<Zuu_>It just run rhe script I guess.
14:28<andythenorth>tying GS to a specific newgrf version - that's all handled via savegame?
14:28<Zuu_>Save/load is not yet implemented
14:28<andythenorth>conceptually I mean
14:29<andythenorth>this stuff could make a big difference to how (industry) newgrfs should be designed
14:29<Zuu_>I answered pms question.
14:29<andythenorth>:)
14:30<@planetmaker>Zuu_: that's what I figured so far, too. I just wonder... would stuff go haywire, if things are not initialized maybe on map creation?
14:31*andythenorth is in a world of ponder
14:31<andythenorth>how tightly bound / decoupled should GS be from specific maps / newgrfs / settings
14:31<andythenorth>?
14:32<Zuu_>I say you will not get any such problems. The init code will run when the game loads.
14:32*andythenorth wants to be able to play quite intricate challenges, bound to specific maps and newgrfs
14:32<andythenorth>but maybe that's wrong
14:32<@planetmaker>andythenorth: I'd say that's most probably possible
14:32<@planetmaker>it will make for awesome scenarios
14:32<Zuu_>Actually the GS might be unaware that it is a loaded game.
14:32<@planetmaker>but it will be _very_ time consuming to produce
14:32<andythenorth>planetmaker: it could also make for some epic falling outs
14:33<andythenorth>if for example, version of FIRS needed for a GS is not available on bananas
14:33<@planetmaker>theoretically possible
14:33<andythenorth>goal scripts *must* be GPL?
14:33<andythenorth>they execute code in same space as ottd, so they have to be GPL? Or they're a separate library?
14:34<@planetmaker>they're as separate as AIs
14:34<Zuu_>AIs don't have to be GPL.
14:34<andythenorth>you can place a bet on what I think GS licensing should be
14:35<Zuu_>The difference is that AIs have AI libraries that can have a different license to the AI. For GS that is currently not.possible.
14:36<Zuu_>So any GS that use SuperLib has to be GPL2.
14:36<@Terkhen>hello
14:36<andythenorth>hola
14:38*Alberth waves hi
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14:45<andythenorth>is GS fast enough to handle things like industry production code?
14:47<frosch123>gs can generally not react on stuff in time
14:47<frosch123>it can only do monthly stuff etc
14:47<frosch123>not on delivery etc
14:50<andythenorth>hmm
14:51<andythenorth>that shoots my idea in the head then
14:52*andythenorth thinks industry newgrfs should cede control over nearly everything to GS
14:52<andythenorth>with libraries, so each GS author doesn't have to write *everything* just to get industry support
14:54<andythenorth>production code, industry window text, open/close, cb28, accepted/produced cargos, production multiplier
14:55<andythenorth>station name, availability dates, fund window text, fund cost, probability
14:56<andythenorth>newgrf should handle cb2f (tile restrictions) and tile (graphics) callbacks, and nothing else
14:56<andythenorth>is this possible though?
15:03<@Alberth>industry window text? fund window text?
15:03<@Alberth>station name?
15:03<andythenorth>yup
15:03<andythenorth>nearly everything
15:04<andythenorth>station name is probably immaterial
15:04<andythenorth>the rest should go to GS
15:04<@Alberth>feels somewhat insane to me :)
15:04<@Alberth>tile graphics callback?
15:04<andythenorth>nope
15:05<andythenorth>tile graphics are a self-contained aspect of the industry
15:05<@Alberth>oh, sorry, read wrong
15:06<@Alberth>why would you have coal mine accept steel?
15:06<andythenorth>because you want that for your scripted scenario?
15:06<@Alberth>or provide diamonds or so?
15:06<andythenorth>to make interesting scripted scenarios, GS author needs control over production + open / close + location + availability
15:07<andythenorth>to control production, and not have madness, you also need to control cargos (per industry via cb) and that means controlling texts
15:07<@Alberth>controlling cargoes is madness imho
15:08<andythenorth>FIRS economies would have controlled cargos
15:08<andythenorth>which means your GS might explode depending on FIRS parameters
15:08<andythenorth>or GS has to have intimate knowledge of newgrf parameters
15:08<andythenorth>same for ECS, not FIRS specific
15:09<andythenorth>I've come up with some alternative ideas...
15:09<andythenorth>newgrf could always cede control of some things to default cb result
15:10<andythenorth>allowing GS to control that if GS is provided
15:11<andythenorth>newgrf could have parameters for use with any GS, (or specific GS) - but parameters are generally crappy
15:11<@Alberth>imho either you make a special combination of firs & gs, or you make a much more general gs
15:11<andythenorth>+1
15:11<@Alberth>in the latter case, assume you have both
15:11<@Alberth>*former
15:12<@Alberth>if you want cargoes tricks, imho the newgrf should supply them, not the gs
15:14*andythenorth thinks it gets a lot more interesting when GS authors can do things like:
15:14<andythenorth>- "this mine will produce a lot of stuff"
15:14<andythenorth>- "this steel mill will close in 1970, no matter what you do"
15:14<frosch123>andythenorth: you lose any industry specific behaviour that way
15:15<frosch123>the latter required the script to actually distinguish mines and steelmills
15:15*andythenorth should read current GS docs :P
15:15<frosch123>you get problems like cargos with vehicles :p
15:15<andythenorth>so can a GS identify an industry type (by ID)?
15:17*andythenorth finds the docs :)
15:17<frosch123>scripts are completely decoupled from newgrfs
15:17<frosch123>they are not even supposed to know cargolabels, though they can read them for 'display purposes'
15:18<andythenorth>k
15:18<andythenorth>this helps
15:18*andythenorth has other ideas
15:19<andythenorth>how 'done' is town control? I've seen commits for it, but I don't trust my assumptions
15:19<frosch123>newgrf town control? or gs town control?
15:20<andythenorth>newgrf - we got stuck on persistent storage question? Or is that solved?
15:20<frosch123>that's the only part that was implemented :p
15:20<andythenorth>ok
15:20<frosch123>though you cannot write to storage of other grfs
15:20<frosch123>(which is not too limiting)
15:20<andythenorth>could GS write to storage?
15:21<andythenorth>or have it's own storage that grfs can read
15:21<frosch123>"could"? the question is rather whether that would be "good" at all
15:22<andythenorth>maybe I explain my aim, rather than guessing implementations :P
15:22<andythenorth>so it seems best that industries are pretty much a black box to GS?
15:22<andythenorth>i.e. GS can't know much about the internals of an industry, as it's very decoupled
15:23<andythenorth>that rules out nearly everything where a GS might touch an industry
15:23<andythenorth>even cb 28 and such might be unwise if GS doesn't know about industry
15:24<andythenorth>but industry and GS could communicate predictably using town
15:24<andythenorth>if industry newgrf had a spec for how it will behave according to certain town storage values
15:24<andythenorth>GS could produce predictable and interesting results
15:24<andythenorth>'town' is probably a fine-grained enough level of detail for gameplay
15:27<andythenorth>there would be some gaps
15:28<andythenorth>like the GS might be trying to control number of coal mines in a town (based on knowing about a specific newgrf), but that still wouldn't be possible
15:28<andythenorth>but the industry could write the number of coal mines to town storage when cb 28 runs
15:29<andythenorth>the industry could also do a lot of the other interesting stuff, like store cargo delivered etc
15:29<andythenorth>this assumes storage isn't limited :P
15:29<@Terkhen>andythenorth: GS should not have access to the standard town / industry storage... but you could add special storages with a specific, fixed format and meaning to enable communication between NewGRFs and GS
15:30<andythenorth>it's an appealing idea
15:31<@Terkhen>the default NewGRF storages have no fixed format, therefore all GS would need specific support for each NewGRF
15:31<@Terkhen>that would be madness :)
15:31<andythenorth>no more madness than cargo classes
15:31<andythenorth>oh
15:31<andythenorth>wait :P
15:31<@Terkhen>a lot more actually ;)
15:31<andythenorth>is what I'm describing asynchronous signalling?
15:32<andythenorth>seems like there would separate GS and newgrf storage for each newgrf
15:32<andythenorth>each can read but not write to the others
15:32<andythenorth>other's
15:33*andythenorth ponders
15:34<andythenorth>ha: http://eaipatterns.com/ramblings/18_starbucks.html
15:36<andythenorth>rather than GS being able to control industries, it can leave hints behind, and if the hint is in the right place, the industry will do something predictable with it
15:36<z-MaTRiX>hey
15:36<andythenorth>what each newgrf does is up to the newgrf authors
15:37<andythenorth>any intricate GS though will be tightly bound to a single industry newgrf (nothing else makes sense)
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15:46<andythenorth>can we add 'monologue by andythenorth' to the topic please?
15:46<andythenorth>:)
15:50<guru3_>anyone know anything about 32bpp?
15:50-!-guru3_ is now known as guru3
15:55<@planetmaker>it's 4x as much memory as 8bpp ;-)
15:59<andythenorth>Terkhen: there would be one town storage for each newgrf?
16:09<frosch123>yes
16:09<frosch123>you can read the storages of other grfs
16:10<andythenorth>I had an idea for a scheme with multiple storages per newgrf
16:10<andythenorth>with the offsets corresponding to industry or cargo IDs :P
16:11<andythenorth>for convenience :P
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16:26<@Terkhen>andythenorth: each NewGRF has write access to a single town persistent storage, and has read access to all of them
16:26*andythenorth should stop inventing complex schemes :P
16:26-!-Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:26<andythenorth>Terkhen: did you move yet?
16:30<@Terkhen>yes :)
16:30<andythenorth>¿que tal
16:31<@Terkhen>fine, I'm still getting accustomed, everything is different at a big city :P
16:33<@Belugas>yeah, no more sheep running around :)
16:33<@Belugas>hem...
16:34*Belugas runs off
16:34<@Terkhen>my hometown is not that small :P
16:34<TrueBrain>planetmaker: atm scripts are not stored with the savegame, and are forced loaded upon game start; warning: loading a savegame gives an unwanted initial delay in the setup of the script
16:35<@Belugas>hehehe joking, Terkhen
16:35<@Terkhen>;)
16:48<@planetmaker>hm, thx, TrueBrain
16:49<TrueBrain>it is best to start a newgame atm :)
16:50-!-pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-095-033-157-191.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd
16:50<andythenorth>hmm
16:50<andythenorth>HEQS http://www1.trekkerweb.nl/nl/25251377-%5Blinkpage_machines%5D.html?location=321829656338876,10646295,true
16:52-!-APTX [APTX@89-78-217-144.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:53<andythenorth>http://www.roadtransport.com/blogs/big-lorry-blog/BLB3.jpg
16:54-!-LordAro [5684195e@ircip2.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd
16:54<andythenorth>http://www.schwertransportwelt.de/Feind.JPG
16:55<andythenorth>http://offroadvehicle.ru/AZBUCAR/Hover%20Truck/Hovertrik.jpg
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17:01<appe>:o
17:09<andythenorth>dunno what use those vehicles would be :P
17:09<andythenorth>zero gameplay advantage ;)
17:09<@planetmaker>he
17:10<@peter1138>the last one looks ... well...
17:10<@peter1138>something from the 50s, in a "this is what the future will look like" way
17:10<andythenorth>...like a good case for roadtypes?
17:10<@Terkhen>good night
17:11<andythenorth>bye Terkhen
17:11<andythenorth>the 50s future looked like this :D http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=letourneau+landtrain&oe=UTF-8&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&biw=1276&bih=668&sei=iBLQTpTBOtPo8QOtxo2jBA
17:12<@peter1138>nice
17:14<andythenorth>I was going to add that to heqs
17:14<andythenorth>but really....pointless :P
17:17<andythenorth>can a GS build new objects?
17:19<andythenorth>nvm
17:20<andythenorth>so...a GS could open / close certain numbers of industries in a town
17:20<andythenorth>using special one tile industries
17:20<Xaroth>eventually
17:20<Xaroth>well, depends
17:20<andythenorth>'proper' industries could then use industry count in the town as a var to control behaviour
17:20<andythenorth>so basically using the map as storage to communicate between GS and industry
17:21<andythenorth>the GS could also communicate directly with a specific industry by building 'special' industry types on neighbouring tiles, and the industry checking those
17:22<andythenorth>GS would need to be able to use magic bulldozer in that second case
17:22<andythenorth>GS could also raise and lower land around an industry as a means of storing values
17:22<Xaroth>why store values?
17:23<andythenorth>to allow GS to control industry
17:23<Xaroth>I mean.. GS doesn't need to raise/lower to store anything :P
17:23<Xaroth>or it can call a specific callback?
17:24<Xaroth>I'm not really a fan of using hack-ish workarounds when you can do it properly
17:24<andythenorth>industry newgrf could define behaviour, like 'raise one corner of tile next to N tile of industry for production multiplier 8' or such
17:24<Xaroth>but why?
17:24<andythenorth>lower 3 corners of N tile to close industry
17:24<Xaroth>why interact with the game
17:24<Xaroth>if you can interact directly?
17:25<Xaroth>that's like placing a pink hippo in your neighbours garden to inform them their dog was barking again last night
17:26<andythenorth>:)
17:26<Xaroth>sure, with some magic sekrit language they'd understand
17:26<Xaroth>but.. what's wrong with going 'yo, dog was barking again last night'
17:26<Xaroth>bro.
17:26*andythenorth visits newgrf spec
17:27*andythenorth wonders what else towns can do
17:27<andythenorth>hmm, varaction 2 is a bit limited wrt towns
17:28<andythenorth>encoding information via the slope bits would be best
17:29<andythenorth>although I also like the idea of constructing specific industries
17:30<andythenorth>var 68 can use layout numbers
17:30<andythenorth>that's a lot of potential data....
17:31<Xaroth>it all sounds wonderful and stuff, but I still don't see the point in doing visual (as minimal as they be) changes ingame, to allow for backend communication
17:31*andythenorth ponders....an industry can have 255 layouts
17:31<andythenorth>but it would probably make more sense to treat the number as a bitmask
17:32<andythenorth>which gives...rather fewer values
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17:33<andythenorth>Xaroth: the aim would be to allow GS to control industries
17:33<andythenorth>via an API
17:34<frosch123>Xaroth: luckily andy's set are all gpl. so if the ruins them, we can branch off :p
17:34<Xaroth>frosch123: thank fook for that :P
17:34<andythenorth>frosch123: you don't like my idea of communicating via stuff on the map? :P
17:34<Xaroth>andythenorth: but surely you must see the insanity of using top-level stuff to communicate low-level information?
17:35<andythenorth>not really :)
17:35<andythenorth>it could be fun
17:35<Xaroth>then you need a sanitycheck :P
17:35<andythenorth>frosch123: does var 68 allow both layout *and* town check?
17:36<andythenorth>spec implies it does
17:36<andythenorth>hmm
17:36<andythenorth>64 industry types are not enough for this scheme
17:36<andythenorth>rather more would be needed
17:37<andythenorth>perhaps 1024
17:38<frosch123>andythenorth: i would read it like that, yes
17:38<andythenorth>for a set with 64 'real' types, that gives 15 bytes of storage per industry type
17:38<andythenorth>the 'storage' industries could look like houses or such
17:38<frosch123>something different
17:39<andythenorth>rainbows?
17:39<andythenorth>hellmouths?
17:39<frosch123>on the front page of the specswiki: i keep on clicking the the features in the wrong tables
17:39<frosch123>so i get to action2 instead of varaction2
17:39<andythenorth>oh :(
17:40<frosch123>is it a good idea to add a huge "0", "2", "VA", "R" and "3" to the tables
17:40<frosch123>(i.e. spanning 4 rows)
17:40<andythenorth>frosch123: looks like a layout issue to me
17:40<frosch123>or is it only me who misclcks?
17:40<andythenorth>the gap between table and title is the same for preceeding and following
17:40<andythenorth>i.e. there should be a larger gap between a table and the following title
17:41*andythenorth tests
17:41<andythenorth>gah
17:41<andythenorth>wiki formatting :(
17:41<frosch123>i think empty rows would make it look weird
17:42<andythenorth>I can only fix it with an empty list bullet
17:42<andythenorth>no <br />
17:42<andythenorth>wiki formatting is remarkably stupid
17:42<andythenorth>in the quest to make it easy for idiots, they made it harder for normal people
17:42<@planetmaker>frosch123: it's not only you who mis-clicks
17:42<frosch123>just add an empty line?
17:43<andythenorth>wiki formatting allows an empty line? which magic characters do I press :P
17:43<@planetmaker>good night
17:43<andythenorth>bye planetmaker
17:44<andythenorth>hmm
17:44*andythenorth eats words
17:44<andythenorth><br /> is not only allowed, but recommended :P
17:44<andythenorth>frosch123: try now
17:45<andythenorth>might help, might not
17:47<andythenorth>I only added one <br />
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17:49<Mazur>That sounds utterly stupid, andythenorth, are you sure?
17:50<Mazur><br> is a thing in and of itself, begin and end in one.
17:50<andythenorth>as a tag?
17:50<Mazur>Or it is in HTML.
17:50<Mazur>Yes.
17:50<andythenorth>I mean I just added it once
17:51<andythenorth>mediawiki prefers xhtml
17:51<andythenorth>hence /
17:51<Mazur><BR> is a break in a line, bypassing automatic formatting.
17:51<andythenorth>I'm just surprised it works at all
17:51<Mazur>So am I.
17:52<Mazur>It might simply have been added to pacify the kind of people who use Macro$hit products and take every tag needs an end-tag too literally.]
17:52<andythenorth>Mazur: that's a bit wrong
17:53<andythenorth>for various reasons
17:53<andythenorth>:)
17:53<Mazur>Only one bit? I must be sickening or something.
17:53<andythenorth>but anyway, I'm surprised that mediawiki respects any html / xhtml at al
17:53<frosch123>andythenorth: the empty line looks weird, but i like the bold number in a separate column :)
17:53<andythenorth>frosch123: I was going to revert my change
17:53<andythenorth>it was only a test
17:53<frosch123>reload
17:53<frosch123>i reverted it already :p
17:53<andythenorth>good work
17:54<andythenorth>hmm
17:54<andythenorth>ok
17:54<andythenorth>makes sense
17:54<Xaroth>Mazur: obviously you missed out on the xml spec?
17:55<Xaroth>a <br /> is just a br element with no content
17:55<frosch123>what? who added a link to the nml-specs in the "game mechanics" section?
17:55<andythenorth>someone well meaning?
17:55<andythenorth>but perhaps mistaken?
17:56<Xaroth>it's also the same reason you should close an img tag, and a hr, and several others
17:56<frosch123>planetmaker did, but i cannot ask him anymore whether he really wanted it in that place
17:56<frosch123>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/index.php?title=Main_Page&diff=2269&oldid=2125
17:56<Mazur>Xaroth, yep, never laid eyes on it, perhaps never will.
17:57<andythenorth>Xaroth: try closing an <a name="foo"/> :P
17:57<andythenorth>for explodey results
17:57<@planetmaker>frosch123: looks stupid there. Feel free to revert. ;-)
17:57<Xaroth>andythenorth: that doesn't work, the <a> isn't 'empty'
17:57<andythenorth>I always try it for a named anchor
17:57<andythenorth>with explodey results
17:57<Xaroth>you anchor to a piece of content
17:57<Xaroth>so you should include content in it.
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17:58<andythenorth><form /> would also be witty :P
17:58<@peter1138>iirc those anchers are deprecated now
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17:58<andythenorth>there's probably a specific html 5 tag for them :P
17:58<andythenorth>what larks
17:58<andythenorth>'everything must be semantically perfect'
17:58<Xaroth>no
17:59<@peter1138>html 5, the one where they removed the xml-ness because muppets found it too hard
17:59<Xaroth>html 5 looks at id=<x>
17:59<Xaroth>THEN at name=<x>
17:59<@peter1138>yeah
17:59<andythenorth>interesting
17:59<Xaroth>so <div id="foo" > is linkable by page.html#foo
17:59<andythenorth>that is interesting
17:59<Xaroth>that's been around for ages :P
18:00*andythenorth lives in a world where IE 6 support still matters
18:00<@peter1138>i always end up forgetting that input fields need name= instead of id=
18:00<@peter1138>ie6 :(
18:00<Xaroth>peter1138: same
18:00<andythenorth>we don't move to new standards quickly
18:00<andythenorth>:(
18:01<andythenorth>html 5 seems to be spawning tags merrily from my limited knowledge of it
18:01<Xaroth>and iirc, IE6 might even support the id=foo method.
18:02<Xaroth>don't care though, I'm long glad I don't have to do ie-compatible crap :P
18:02*andythenorth will try it next time
18:02<andythenorth>named anchors are odd
18:02<CIA-6>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r23328 /trunk/src/vehicle.cpp: -Change: Make the viewport vehicle position hash cover the same area.
18:03<andythenorth>hmm
18:03<andythenorth>safari does it
18:03*andythenorth has finally learnt something new today :)
18:03<andythenorth>also that means that named anchors could collide with ids
18:03<andythenorth>so one more reason to not use them
18:04<andythenorth>Xaroth: using the ottd map for industry communication seems no more insane to me than ajax apps which use lists with display:none as data storage :P
18:04<andythenorth>which I have seen done
18:06<CIA-6>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r23329 /trunk/src/ (viewport.cpp viewport_func.h): -Fix (r23316): Scale child sprite pixel offsets unless told not to. Fixes lifts and industry graphics.
18:06<@peter1138>named anchors could collide with named anchors
18:07<@peter1138>seeing as name="" isn't unique
18:07<andythenorth>named anchors suck
18:07<Xaroth>andythenorth: sometimes you can combine that with compatibility for javascript-less clients
18:07<andythenorth>I'm going to war with them on monda
18:07<andythenorth>+y
18:08<Xaroth>like a filtered display, for non-js clients they just see the entire list, where javascript-enabled clients can apply filters to only see a subset of the items
18:08<Xaroth>elegant, yet effective
18:08<andythenorth>yeah it makes sense for some cases
18:08<Xaroth>by all means, in >50% of the cases you see it they should have done with a js var
18:09<andythenorth>I've seen it used for things that would make more sense to push into an array or such
18:09<andythenorth>instead of creating spurious DOM elements
18:09<andythenorth>keeping state in the GUI weirds me out in the first place; keeping it in the actual markup seems insane
18:10<andythenorth>and yes, my suggestions about industry communication are not entirely serious :P
18:11<andythenorth>also
18:11<andythenorth>bedtime
18:11<andythenorth>good night
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18:26<Eddi|zuHause>any evil GS guru around? need a lab animal for www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/delaunay.nut (beware of syntax errors etc. i have not actually executed this code)
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18:36<frosch123>there is at least one ai doing that
18:36<frosch123>so, compare the code :p
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18:40<Eddi|zuHause>you do know that comparing two programs is an undecidable problem? :)
18:41<Eddi|zuHause>and i'm sure my program is hopelessly wrong
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19:47<Wolf01>'night
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20:07<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: lol, nice piece of code :) In which complexity is this?
20:08<TrueBrain>somewhere between O(n) and O(n**2) by a quick look .. you should test it, and see how fast it is :)
20:14<TrueBrain>seems to be really close to O(n); would be nice to have it in working order. Would speed up many scripts :D
20:15<TrueBrain>for sure it should beat Zuu's O(n**2) implementation :D:D Hihihi :)
20:15<Eddi|zuHause>in theory this has O(n*log(n)), but i haven't done all possible optimisations, so could be O(n^2) in the worst case
20:16<TrueBrain>I don't see how it could be O(n**2)?
20:16<TrueBrain>from what I read, it scales linear .. I don't see any additional for that scales with n?
20:16<Eddi|zuHause>the Flip-recursion could in the worst case loop through all triangles
20:17<TrueBrain>AH! Each projection can insert 2 ne wprojections
20:17<TrueBrain>I was looking for something like that, and failed to find :D
20:17<TrueBrain>well, then it would really depend on how much opcodes all the other stuff consumes :D
20:17<TrueBrain>although I am willing to consider adding this to the C++ side
20:18<Eddi|zuHause>like i said, there's lots of room for optimizations
20:18<Eddi|zuHause>but i first wanted to try if it's actually correct :)
20:18<TrueBrain>you also have to optimize within the domain of Squirrel; some stuff takes longer than other stuff :)
20:18<TrueBrain>but I see use for this in both GS, AI, but also cargodist
20:20<TrueBrain>so yeah, please do make it in working order and benchmark it against the greedy algorithm of Zuu :)
20:20<TrueBrain>http://devs.openttd.org/~truebrain/nogo/ <- see info.nut.txt and main.nut.txt how to make a (simple) workable GS, but you could also try it for AIs ;)
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20:27<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: for testing, it'd be nice if i had a basic script that can place a sign (or more) into each town
20:27<TrueBrain>script above does that
20:27<TrueBrain>it reads something funny
20:27<TrueBrain>cannot remember what it is :P
20:28<TrueBrain>just strip out the rest, and you have yourself a nice test script
20:28<Eddi|zuHause>ok, i'll look at this tomorrow-ish
20:29<TrueBrain>cool :)
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22:05<Eddi|zuHause>"pope sued for not wearing a belt, faces possible fine of 30€" ... some people have nothing better to do i suppose
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