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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-11-26

---Logopened Sat Nov 26 00:00:30 2011
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02:56<@Terkhen>good morning
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03:00<andythenorth>morgen
03:00<Rubidium>vandaag ;)
03:03<@planetmaker>moin
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03:32<andythenorth>drive-in road stops for trucks - does it matter if I prevent HEQS from being compatible with them?
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03:40<@planetmaker>complete heqs?
03:40<@planetmaker>would be quite sad
03:40<andythenorth>mostly the mog?
03:41<andythenorth>or also the mining trucks?
03:41<@planetmaker>esp. as the drive-in stops use less space for small stations
03:41<@planetmaker>why would you make them articualted?
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03:53<andythenorth>refittable trailers
03:54<@planetmaker>tbh, I hate it, if vehicles can only use dtrs
03:54<@planetmaker>those have lots less value for my playing style
03:54<andythenorth>ok
03:55*andythenorth wonders what auto-refit does with subtypes?
03:55<@planetmaker>but I also think that it would need just articulated rv use the drive-in ones ;-)
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03:59*andythenorth presumes auto-refit will use first subtype
03:59*Terkhen only uses dtrs
04:00*andythenorth is plotting HEQS 2
04:00<andythenorth>which will rework some things
04:01<@planetmaker>andythenorth: imho egrvts does it correctly. It offers both types of RV: articulated and non-articulated
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04:01<@planetmaker>with a tendency that the trailer RV carry a bit more
04:02<andythenorth>which is worse? Long buy menu, or long refit list?
04:02<@Terkhen>that's easy in egrvts because all road vehicles are standard-ish
04:02<@Terkhen>andythenorth: long buy menu
04:02<andythenorth>bah
04:02<andythenorth>I thought you'd vote the other way :P
04:02<@Terkhen>the refits are sorted in an easy way
04:02<@Terkhen>and you don't need to change it
04:03<andythenorth>I could remove 6 vehicles from HEQS by making the trailer / non-trailer versions a refit
04:03<@Terkhen>in the buy menu, you need to change the sorting
04:03<@Terkhen>to find whatever you are looking for in an easy way
04:03<@Terkhen>"I want something powerful", "I want something big", "I want a small truck" and so on
04:03<@planetmaker>andythenorth: but then the refittable ones would not go to drive-in anymore
04:03<@planetmaker>thus indeed: both
04:04<andythenorth>planetmaker: hence my question...
04:04<andythenorth>and tbh, I think 'coal, no trailer', 'coal 1 trailer', 'coal 2 trailers', 'coal 3 trailers' clutters the refit menu
04:05<@Terkhen>it does, but I prefer to keep the clutter in the refit menu which is less cluttered than the buy menu :)
04:05<andythenorth>hmm
04:05<andythenorth>trams building for PAX by default, that's wrong :o
04:06<@Terkhen>HEQS has PAX trams?
04:06<andythenorth>nope
04:06<andythenorth>current nightly appears to :P
04:06<andythenorth>this is incorrect
04:08*andythenorth is planning to extend tram-style length refits to most HEQS vehicles
04:08<andythenorth>but not ones where planetmaker wants drive-in stops :P
04:25<andythenorth>hmm
04:25<andythenorth>auto-refit appears to fail for me
04:25<andythenorth>trams, with subtypes
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04:28<andythenorth>refit flag is set, route menu allows refit
04:28<andythenorth>refit cost is £0 for all vehicles in consist
04:28<andythenorth>cargo is waiting
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04:31<andythenorth>checkout HEQS tip if you wish to verify...
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04:37<andythenorth>bbl
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04:39<@Alberth>bye andy
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04:54<@peter1138>TrueBrain, i saw an interesting landscape generation algorithm that used delaunay...
04:59<@planetmaker>have all a nice weekend :)
04:59<@peter1138>morning. you off, or just greeting everyone? :p
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05:51<Wolf01>hello
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05:55<@Alberth>hello
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06:48*andythenorth proposes registers for tiles that contain a route :P
06:48<andythenorth>e.g. a tile with a railtype on or such
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07:08<@peter1138>do what?
07:08<@peter1138>registers... for tiles which contain road/rail/water?
07:08<@peter1138>how big do you want the map array?
07:09<Rubidium>640kB should be enough
07:10<guru3>famous last words
07:13*andythenorth thinks 8GB is a reasonable min. requirement for ottd
07:13<andythenorth>so how many registers can we have :P
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07:20<andythenorth>quak
07:20<frosch123>moin
07:23<@Alberth>andythenorth: you should write NoAI scripts, it gives you full access to tiles :)
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07:32<andythenorth>I think vastly increasing the map size is worth it, to add snowploughs :P
07:32<andythenorth>and maintenance vehicles
07:38<@Alberth>but toyland has no snow :)
07:39<andythenorth>sugar drifts
07:49<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23330 /trunk/src/rail_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#4853] (r23316): alignment of signals in the signals menu was incorrect
07:53<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23331 /trunk/src/company_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#4851] (rCS, r148): abort building/moving HQ when clicking on the button again, just like when building rail, stations, etc (sbr)
08:01<frosch123>hmm, it's 14:00, but the daylight feels like 17:00
08:09<andythenorth>try playing TTD
08:09<andythenorth>it's always 14.00 in TTD :P
08:14<TrueBrain>welcome to the winter time frosch123 :)
08:14<andythenorth>frosch123 must be playing arctic :P
08:14<andythenorth>we should all play tropical in November :P
08:15*andythenorth used to go to India for November
08:15<andythenorth>but not since the baby
08:30<appe>:D
08:30<@peter1138>don't forget that 4:30 is in the top right...
08:32<andythenorth>hmm
08:32<andythenorth>sun rises in the east
08:32<andythenorth>my brain fell out of my head for a bit :P
08:32<andythenorth>so it's about 10.45 in TTD land
08:36<CIA-6>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r23332 /trunk/src/blitter/8bpp_optimized.cpp: -Fix (r23316): Length of transparent pixels could exceed a byte. (frosch)
08:37<andythenorth>hmm
08:37<andythenorth>I thought I fixed auto-refit for trams, but I haven't :(
08:38<appe>fun fact; "trams" is swedish for "sir, you speak utter rubbish, and we didnt bother listening to you anymore".
08:39<andythenorth>so...
08:40<andythenorth>the articulated trams go to a station with cargo waiting, and don't refit
08:40<appe>ask Markk. he is full of trams.
08:40<andythenorth>all vehicles have special flag enabled for auto-refit, and have refit cost 0
08:41<andythenorth>non-articulated trams go to the station, refit, but don't load
08:48<CIA-6>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r23333 /trunk/src/screenshot.cpp: -Fix [FS#4854]: Make zoomed in screenshot use the selected maximum zoom.
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09:46<Markk>appe: eh-he-he
09:48<__ln__>http://www.ustream.tv/nasajpl
09:51<CIA-6>OpenTTD: frosch * r23334 /trunk/src/build_vehicle_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#4820]: Road vehicle purchase info failed to display vehicles carrying no cargo. (Can only happen when NewGRFs are screwed up.)
09:52<CIA-6>OpenTTD: frosch * r23335 /trunk/src/build_vehicle_gui.cpp: -Change: Make determination of vehicle weight when loaded consistent between road and rail vehicle purchase info.
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11:09<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23336 /trunk/src/window.cpp: -Fix [FS#4709]: bring some more order in the ordering of the windows, e.g. don't let a save or load dialog get hidden by a new message (monoid)
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11:14<@peter1138>oh FIRS, why do you tease me so?
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11:15<@peter1138>andythenorth, ^^ oh FIRS, why do you tease me so?
11:15<@peter1138>you need a spec for smoke ;(
11:15<Rubidium>peter1138: it's getting out of the wrong places, e.g. your ears?
11:15<@peter1138>it's getting out of the bounding boxes, certainly
11:16<@peter1138>hmm, would anyone create 8bpp ez sprites...?
11:17<Rubidium>Sir Zephyris?
11:17<@peter1138>see, i tend to think that if you're going to the effort of EZ, you might as well use 32bpp
11:21<Rubidium>well, 32bpp (ez) is mostly bickering about getting longer vehicles, smoother curves and the likes. It's also more complex with recolouring than "simple" 8bpp sprites
11:21<@peter1138>CETS has longer vehicles :D
11:23<Rubidium>maybe make a grand post saying that OpenTTD now supports vehicles that are 4 times longer out-of-the-box
11:26<@peter1138>heh
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11:40<+michi_cc>peter1138: CETS vehicles as real 2x zoom sprites... tasty :) I don't think they would need 32 bpp.
12:11<Elukka>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/1990/Hawthorn___Co.__6._Okt_1922.png
12:11<Elukka>CETS vehicle length magic is lovely
12:12<Elukka>i really need to get around to drawing more stuff
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12:18<frosch123>omg... now they measure and stream the pulse of the players in esports :p
12:18<Xaroth>o_O
12:20<@Alberth>ensuring you get a proper workout :)
12:23<@peter1138>Elukka, i fear the sprites are a bit big :S
12:24<@peter1138>there are glitches with bridges :(
12:24<Elukka>i think that's a downside inherent to the longer vehicles
12:25<@peter1138>in theory you could have them made up from parts
12:25<@peter1138>more work to split up though
12:25<@peter1138>plus you need special handling for slopes
12:28<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23337 /trunk/src/network/network_server.cpp: -Fix [FS#4826]: don't send chat messages to clients that haven't joined yet
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12:34<Nite>Hi
12:35<Nite>any ecs nerds here?
12:35<George>Nite: ?
12:36<Nite>Hi, how to make ecs to place less iondustreis on the map?
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12:37<andythenorth>peter1138: I won't make 8bpp EZ
12:37<andythenorth>or if I did, I'd do it with a photoshop batch :P
12:37<George>http://wiki.openttd.org/Difficulty#No._of_industries
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12:38<George>Nite: or do you mean how to have less industry types?
12:39<Elukka>what's EZ?
12:39<andythenorth>Elukka: try an ottd nightly and find out :)
12:39<George>if the second see http://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/ECS_Vectors
12:40<George>In general - you can use only several vectors in one game, not all of them
12:41<Elukka>holy crap
12:41<Elukka>zooom
12:41<Elukka>awesome
12:41<Elukka>i've been hoping since forever that that'd make it to trunk
12:43<andythenorth>it's good for my eyes
12:48<Eddi|zuHause>anybody seen my mouse?
12:48<@Alberth>ask your cat :)
12:48<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: it is on the shelve, where you left it
12:50<Elukka>where did most of the locomotives in CETS go?
12:51<Nite>it cleared up ty
12:51<Nite>and you can use all of the vectors all time
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12:53<Elukka>http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/zoom.png
12:53<Elukka>EZ is the best thing
12:53<TrueBrain>better than sex?!
12:53<Elukka>hmm.
12:53<__ln__>"insufficient data"
12:53<Elukka>tough one
12:54<Elukka>haha
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12:56<andythenorth>Elukka: all it needs now is a pixel editor in game...
12:56<Eddi|zuHause>how far is grfv8 support for nml?
12:57<andythenorth>who will have the first v8 grf?
12:57<andythenorth>:P
12:57<@peter1138>in game pixel editor... o_O
12:57<@peter1138>useless :S
12:57<frosch123>add you own skins to your engines? :p
12:57<frosch123>normal for modern games :p
12:58<frosch123>take a look at skyrim character creation
12:58<frosch123>tons of options with no particular use
12:58<andythenorth>peter1138: in game pixel editor && save sprite to png
12:58<frosch123>though i guess no game can beat the opening of outpost 1 ....
12:59<@Alberth>:)
12:59<@Alberth>andythenorth: save as newgrf, of course
12:59<Elukka>yeah but character creation in an rpg isn't really development or modding
12:59<andythenorth>Alberth: nfo editor in game :P
12:59<andythenorth>might be...crashy
13:00<frosch123>yeah, players first have to type in the hexcodes for the production callback before industries produce something :p
13:01<frosch123>dongleware :p
13:01<andythenorth>no no, the GS does that for them :P
13:01<andythenorth>p
13:01<andythenorth>cracked dongleware
13:02<@Alberth>in one of the first computers you had to enter the bootstrap code with hardware switches :p
13:03<frosch123>switches?
13:03<frosch123>or just bridging with some cables?
13:03<andythenorth>hmm
13:03<andythenorth>peter1138: wrt FIRS smoke - it's my own fault for trying to draw outside of the bounding box
13:04<frosch123>s/cables/wires/
13:04<andythenorth>I should fix it by redrawing the industries + moving the chimneys
13:04<andythenorth>but that's an arse
13:04<frosch123>just make the bb bigger?
13:04<andythenorth>it's out of the tile
13:04<andythenorth>afaik I can't go much bigger?
13:04<frosch123>ah, outside of the tile to left/right
13:05<frosch123>yeah, that needs resplitting
13:05<andythenorth>it's using a TTD base sprite
13:06<andythenorth>[or opengfx]
13:06<andythenorth>I don't fancy drawing smoke much
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13:06<andythenorth>without effect vehicles, there's no fix
13:06<andythenorth>other than moving the chimneys....
13:07<@peter1138>yeah, it's completely outside the industry ground, so splitting won't help
13:07<@peter1138>hence the need for the effect vehicle specs :)
13:09<frosch123>why effect vehicle? that makes no sense
13:09<frosch123>you can add multiple sprites to a tilelayout
13:09<frosch123>and bb do not need to be at the bottom
13:10*andythenorth visits wiki
13:10<frosch123>just move them higher if you need to
13:10<andythenorth>my understanding is you can't extend beyond l/r tile border?
13:10<frosch123>which industry are you talking about?
13:11<@peter1138>frosch123, standard coal plant uses effect vehicles
13:11<@peter1138>for this very reason
13:11<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23338 /trunk/src/ (rail_cmd.cpp rail_gui.cpp): -Feature [FS#4841]: diagonal dragging the rail conversion tool when pressing CTRL
13:11<@peter1138>the sprite is too far away from the ground tile to be picked up when drawing the area the smoke covers
13:11<TrueBrain><3 Rubidium
13:12<Eddi|zuHause>ah, this reminds me of a suggestion: in the sprite aligner, it would be useful to see the difference in offset wrt the "original"
13:12<Xaroth>Rubidium: <3 <3 <3
13:12<andythenorth>hmm
13:12<andythenorth>we're still linking this from the newgrf wiki ;/
13:12<andythenorth>http://users.tt-forums.net/purno/PDT/subpages/tt_light_effects.html
13:12<andythenorth>here http://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/GraphicsTutorial
13:14<frosch123>ah, it extents to the right
13:17<andythenorth>can I remove the link to Purno's tutorial from the wiki? please?
13:18<z-MaTRiX>hey
13:19<@peter1138>heh
13:19<@peter1138>it's a wiki ;P
13:19<@peter1138>make a better tutorial
13:19<@peter1138>even put it on the wiki
13:20<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138> in theory you could have them made up from parts <peter1138> plus you need special handling for slopes <-- that's already (partially) implemented
13:20<__ln__>what will happen to Tegel once they close it down?
13:21<Eddi|zuHause>although, only for the 10lu passenger wagons which have "real" graphics. not any of the green-box-dummy-vehicles
13:21<@peter1138>a new circuit for topgear
13:22<Eddi|zuHause>the current problem is that i need a dynamic offset-correction for the slices
13:22<andythenorth>hmm
13:22<andythenorth>the bunfight about GS started then
13:22<andythenorth>w.r.t newgrf etc
13:27*andythenorth is placing bet on "GS can't do very much to newgrf stuff"
13:27<andythenorth>I did have lots of ideas for interesting gameplay by allowing GS to over-ride newgrf props
13:27<andythenorth>but there are too many edge cases
13:28<andythenorth>lots of newgrfs are very intricate, and it's not as simple as just changing a date or a capacity
13:29<andythenorth>e.g. there are good gameplay reasons to change a vehicles cost or such in action 0, but GS has no idea what cb36 might also be doing
13:30<@peter1138>heh, collective pronoun for bankers: a wunch
13:30<frosch123>andythenorth: you are too stuck in newgrfs :p there is no point in gs modifying the costs for single vehicles; but they could change the costmultilpiers to affect the cost of all vehicles
13:30<andythenorth>frosch123: yup
13:30<@peter1138>mb would go mad :D
13:31<frosch123>bool GSInfo::AllowMBGrfs()
13:31<frosch123>{ return false; }
13:32<@Alberth>doesn't it miss 'final' ? :p
13:33<frosch123>:p
13:35<andythenorth>frosch123: I am too stuck in how railroad tycoon scenarios worked :P
13:36<andythenorth>things like making one engine especially cheap in a scenario, due to 'a deal with the manufacturer' etc
13:36<frosch123>i only know rt1, and i cannot remember scenarios in it
13:37<frosch123>the engine quiz was nice at start
13:39<andythenorth>GS might also want to control which vehicles are available. That's plausible, as long as the GS author is careful
13:40<frosch123>i doubt they want that :p
13:40<andythenorth>depends who they are
13:40<andythenorth>and what the idea is
13:40<frosch123>ttd is not suitable for scenarios like: transport 100 ton of coal from a to b within 3 months
13:41<andythenorth>how do you know? :D
13:41<frosch123>at least i would consider that pretty stupid :p
13:41<frosch123>win condition: build two trains :p
13:41<@Alberth>vehicle availability control seems to be detailed to me
13:42<andythenorth>over-ride the climate availability
13:42<andythenorth>and cross your fingers that it's not part of an articulated vehicle or such :P
13:42<@Alberth>frosch123: have 3 trains using the same 10 tiles of track without colliding for 3 months :p
13:42<andythenorth>and that the GS doesn't turn *off* availability during game
13:42<andythenorth>there are too many easily-hit edge cases to give GS unlimited control
13:43<andythenorth>they're barely edge cases, more like common cases :)
13:43<andythenorth>although it would be nice if it was possible :)
13:43<frosch123>Alberth: yeah, even better :)
13:44<andythenorth>transport 1m tonnes between A and B in 30 years, but in between A and B, are four towns, each of which will prevent you building until you've achieved their needs
13:44<@Alberth>andythenorth: sounds like you want to control too detailed items; in my view, the big gain is to get control of the overall world progress, imho
13:45<andythenorth>Alberth: any GS is a win :)
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: translators * r23339 /trunk/src/lang/ (belarusian.txt italian.txt korean.txt slovak.txt):
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: belarusian - 4 changes by Wowanxm
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: italian - 13 changes by lorenzodv
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: korean - 25 changes by junho2813
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: slovak - 33 changes by klingacik
13:46<@Alberth>:)
13:46*andythenorth finds it helpful too see how far we could go, to find the limit
13:46<andythenorth>already it's clear that:
13:46<andythenorth>for the vast majority of newgrf action 0 props, or cb results, GS cannot touch them
13:47<andythenorth>also GS are not a good way to try and influence the economy too much; town control and * dist are better
13:48<andythenorth>also GS seem like they should be either tied to a set of specific newgrfs (and probably a scenario), or completely generic. Nothing half-way in between
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13:49<@Alberth>I must have missed the town control discussion, but yeah, I think you are right
13:49<andythenorth>for example, GS is a bad way to try and affect cargo payments
13:50<andythenorth>but GS could set values on a town, which affect cargo payments
13:50*Alberth nods
13:50<andythenorth>(or abuse subsidies for same effect)
13:51<@Alberth>I was thinking in the context of industries, have GS change the probability of certain industries
13:51<andythenorth>that's possibly safe
13:51<andythenorth>there are a limited number of safe properties
13:51<andythenorth>for industries it's quite blurred exactly which are wise
13:52<andythenorth>rather than adjust probability, it might be better to make cost of funding industry £0 for GS
13:52<andythenorth>and let it build wherever
13:53<andythenorth>then give GS authors a library for randomising
13:53<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23340 /trunk/os/windows/installer/install.nsi: -Fix [FS#4824]: [Windows] A text in the installer was so long that NSIS didn't display it right anymore
13:53<@Alberth>squirrel probably already has some random thingie
13:53<andythenorth>I can think of lots of reasons to allow GS to adjust action 0 props or similar
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13:53<andythenorth>then I think of all the unwanted interactions and confusions
13:54<andythenorth>and the 'you changed your grf, now my GS broke'
13:54<andythenorth>give the GS god powers, and make it behave like a scenario author....
13:54<@Alberth>for now, I think that the gs author should assume a better newgrf in such cases
13:54<andythenorth>my solution above demands a lot more from GS authors :( They have to write a lot more code
13:55<@Alberth>and it makes things very complicated
13:58<andythenorth>for the GS author maybe
13:59<andythenorth>FIRS scenario mode was envisaged for this kind of thing :)
13:59<andythenorth>game script rather than goal script...
13:59<andythenorth>[in my brain]
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14:11<andythenorth>there is one industry case that I can't figure out
14:11<andythenorth>should a GS be able to set initial production multiplier on construction?
14:13<@Alberth>sounds mostly as a difficulty setting to me, or not?
14:13<andythenorth>not sure
14:14<andythenorth>I can imagine uses for it
14:14<andythenorth>but I don't think the GS will have enough hooks to make it worthwhile
14:14<andythenorth>it more raises the question that the game can't set initial production multiplier for a newgrf
14:15<andythenorth>it would be a big shortcut for me if I could set a flag saying 'let game set prod. multiplier to random amount on construction'
14:15<@Alberth>a newgrf parameter :)
14:16<andythenorth>ever noticed in FIRS all industries of same type produce same amount when built?
14:16<andythenorth>it can be solved
14:17<andythenorth>frosch told me the newgrf solution
14:18<@Alberth>I didn't notice; I tend to connect them to my network at different dates :)
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14:21<frosch123>i want gs to turn ottd into a lemming game
14:21<frosch123>bring 50/100 rv save across the level crossing
14:21<andythenorth>as in pysgnosis lemmings?
14:21<andythenorth>:)
14:21<andythenorth>many wasted hours
14:21<andythenorth>why doesn't ottd include a thermonuclear weapon?
14:21<andythenorth>for a game that's going badly
14:22<andythenorth>just extend a disaster :P
14:22<@Alberth>not family friendly
14:24<andythenorth>plane crashes are family friendly?
14:24<andythenorth>ufos?
14:24<andythenorth>mining subsidence?
14:24<andythenorth>:D
14:24<andythenorth>hmm
14:24<andythenorth>does the dogfood principle apply to GS?
14:24<Xaroth>dogfood principle?
14:24<frosch123>[20:21] <andythenorth> why doesn't ottd include a thermonuclear weapon? <- it's more fun when you are close to reaching the goal. press it shortly before, and wonder whether enough make it in the following 5 seconds
14:25<andythenorth>frosch123: that's the correct playing style :)
14:25<Prof_Frink>The buttons don't work in wine :(
14:25<Prof_Frink>Can use the keyboard to select actions, but not nuke.
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14:29<andythenorth>Xaroth: as in 'eat your own'
14:29<andythenorth>although I'm abusing it slightly
14:29<andythenorth>it's used in many ways, but I recently saw it applied to APIs
14:30<andythenorth>"don't eat people food, but give your developers dogfood" or such
14:30<@Alberth>you want to control a GS with GS ?
14:31<andythenorth>nope :)
14:31<andythenorth>in the case of GS....newgrfs have been written against an API which defines what ottd will / won't do
14:31<andythenorth>GS should be able to modify the ottd side, but have no privileged access to change behaviour of newgrfs
14:31<@Alberth>Xaroth: practice what you preach
14:31<andythenorth>the easiest example is some cb like production change cb, where returning 04 80 means 'do whatever ottd does'
14:32<andythenorth>in which case GS would modify what ottd does, leaving the newgrf interface clean
14:32-!-LordPixaII is now known as Pixa
14:32<andythenorth>at this point, newgrf has already delegated result to ottd anyway
14:33*andythenorth thinks it should be 100% cast iron rule that GS have no privileged access to newgrf props or logic
14:33<@Alberth>that would be sane :)
14:33<andythenorth>I haven't considered more than vehicle or industry newgrfs though :P
14:33<andythenorth>stations - GS should have no opinion
14:34<andythenorth>newgrf stations are irrelevant to GS
14:34<andythenorth>unless you win by building grand central or such :P
14:34*Alberth wonders about a 'realistic' goal :)
14:35<andythenorth>railtypes - GS shouldn't care?
14:35*Alberth thinks so
14:35<andythenorth>or you win by building a certain type of rail track from A to B?
14:35<andythenorth>or you get certain limited amounts of railtype 1, some amount of railtype 2?
14:36<@Alberth>it would not be my idea of a fun game
14:36<andythenorth>limited track challenges are fun in RT3
14:36<andythenorth>house sets...what could GS care about those?
14:36<@Alberth>yeah, I can see they might
14:37<andythenorth>but even a limited track challenge is basically counting. it doesn't modify newgrf props
14:37<andythenorth>anything to do with where houses go etc is the domain of the house set, or town control
14:37<andythenorth>airports?
14:37<@Alberth>other than it should get the cargoes of the houses right, house set does not matter, I think
14:37<andythenorth>a GS can crash planes?
14:38<@Alberth>move the airport a tile just before touchdown :p
14:38<@Alberth>but no, imho :)
14:39<@Alberth>they are just details to get stuff and things moved from A to B, that's the player problem, not GS
14:39<andythenorth>newobjects?
14:39<andythenorth>build / remove. but not change props
14:39<@Alberth>does not seem useful to me, tbh
14:40<andythenorth>base costs?
14:40<@Alberth>no idea
14:42<andythenorth>seems like if you want to tightly bind a GS to set of newgrfs, then you write some additional newgrfs of your own
14:42<andythenorth>to do things like
14:42<andythenorth>- make engine 'blah' available at a different date
14:42<andythenorth>- change cargo payment rate for cargo 'foo'
14:42<andythenorth>- change base costs for xyz
14:42<andythenorth>and then you make sure the load order is correct
14:42<andythenorth>i.e. use the existing APIs for doing such
14:43<supermop>who is GS?
14:44<Eddi|zuHause>Gris Sawyer
14:46<andythenorth>Geyser Söze
14:53<andythenorth>when I post in the forums that I don't think GS should be able to modify newgrf, ten people will popup and accuse me of horrors and crimes :P
14:59<@Alberth>so don't post it :p
15:02<frosch123>gs should modify newgrfs using action6 :p
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15:04<andythenorth>gs should modify newgrfs using raw nfo
15:05<andythenorth>monkey patching into sprite numbers :P
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15:10<@peter1138>hm
15:11<@peter1138>Born_Acorn! neweffectvehicles!
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15:18<@peter1138>hmm, what else
15:18<@peter1138>minecraft...
15:18<@peter1138>or coding... :p
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15:20<andythenorth>T_Tycoon is trolling
15:20<andythenorth>quite elegantly
15:22<andythenorth>'big turnning point'
15:22<andythenorth>:D
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15:23<@peter1138>meh, it's just graphics
15:23<andythenorth>that's what hindu philosophy says too
15:23<andythenorth>maybe budhism, not sure
15:23<@peter1138>and a slightly different projection, heh
15:24<andythenorth>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_(illusion)
15:24<@peter1138>tl;dr
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15:25<andythenorth>nvm
15:25<andythenorth>cba
15:25<andythenorth>also
15:25<andythenorth>ViV?
15:27<andythenorth>hrm
15:27<andythenorth>my case that GS shouldn't modify newgrfs is bogus
15:27<andythenorth>newgrfs can modify newgrfs
15:27<andythenorth>therefore GS should be able to modify newgrfs
15:27-!-dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd
15:28<andythenorth>any other argument is logically flawed :(
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15:33<andythenorth>bah
15:33*andythenorth writes code
15:38<TrueBrain>he, I am doing that too :)
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15:41<andythenorth>what larks
15:41<@peter1138>LARKS!
15:41<andythenorth>writing actual code is much easier than writing a monologue about possible code :D
15:42*andythenorth pointlessly enables auto-refit for a vehicle with only one cargo type
15:42<andythenorth>oops :P
15:42<andythenorth>incidentally, does auto-refit...um...work?
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15:57<andythenorth>action E is an abomination btw
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16:17<@Alberth>good night all
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16:59<@peter1138>i demand that cets be finished!
17:00<andythenorth>you mean it isn't?
17:00<andythenorth>why not? :o
17:01<Rubidium>but... DNF XL 0.9 hasn't been released yet ;)
17:02<@peter1138>:)
17:03<Rubidium>and probably won't be any time soon as now he (almost?) has to draw 2x, 4x, 1/2x, 1/4x, 1/8x graphics as well!
17:04<TrueBrain>planetmaker: new NoGo release; you might want to upgrade :) Tons of new goodies :)
17:05<@peter1138>well
17:05<@peter1138>no, i'm not near doing that yet, heh
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: to quote MB when presented with that thought: "LOL"
17:07-!-sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has quit []
17:07<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: I always imagined there was just a big humming sound in MBs thoughts
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>"insufficient data" :)
17:09*andythenorth likes MB
17:09*Rubidium just imagines him as a particular co-worker ;)
17:09*andythenorth also likes going to sleep
17:12<Rubidium>night andythenorth et al.
17:12<andythenorth>good night
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17:28<@Terkhen>good night
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17:34<Arkabzol>Hello.
17:54<Eddi|zuHause>err... how do i get the town from a TileIndex?
17:55<__ln__>http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/8917077/Prepare-for-riots-in-euro-collapse-Foreign-Office-warns.html
17:56<Elukka>i wish we had it in us to do something and go out and protest
17:57<@SmatZ>Eddi|zuHause: Town::GetByTile() ?
17:57<Eddi|zuHause>funny headline from today: "Commerzbank allows speculating on its own crash"
17:57<@SmatZ>:)
17:57<Eddi|zuHause>SmatZ: i meant in AI/GS script
17:57<@SmatZ>oh...
17:58<frosch>most likely in AITile
17:58<Eddi|zuHause>there's AITile::GetClosestTown
17:58<Eddi|zuHause>but i don't know how efficient that is
17:59<Eddi|zuHause>maybe i need to drag the town index through my algorithm...
17:59<frosch>it is efficient if called for house or road tiles
17:59<glx>depends on tile type I think
17:59<Eddi|zuHause>well, i am sure it's the center tile of the town :)
17:59<frosch>though maybe only for town owned roads
17:59<glx>then it's a road tile
18:05<Eddi|zuHause>hmm... i can't reload the game script from the debug menu
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18:05<frosch>highlight TrueBrain then :p
18:06<glx>probably not implemented yet :)
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18:12<TrueBrain>not even intended to be implemented
18:12<TrueBrain>as it would make little sense :)
18:14<Eddi|zuHause>well... it's extremely annoying to weed out syntax errors if i have to restart openttd each time
18:14<TrueBrain>just hit: restart
18:14<TrueBrain>in the console
18:15<TrueBrain>as that is kinda the only way to test a gamescript ..
18:15<TrueBrain>maybe I should put that under the button :)
18:15<Eddi|zuHause>the squirrel docs don't seem to have documentation about builtin array/table functions
18:21<Eddi|zuHause>how do i write a number into GSLog?
18:21<TrueBrain>"" + integer
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18:41<Eddi|zuHause>in AIList.Begin: "Returns: the item value of the first item." <-- either this is ambiguous or wrong. when i valuate the town list, i get the value "4" instead of the expected "126080"
18:42<TrueBrain>remember the sorters
18:42<TrueBrain>AIList is by default sorted
18:42<TrueBrain>(by value)
18:43<TrueBrain>if you want it sorted by insertion order, use a Squirrel array ;)
18:43<Eddi|zuHause>no, i mean this seems to be returning the town-id, not the location.
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18:44<Eddi|zuHause>list should be sorted by location
18:44<TrueBrain>it returns the value of the variable 'item'
18:44<TrueBrain>so it returns the key
18:45<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: then the wording is ambiguous
18:45<TrueBrain>where list.GetValue(item) gives the value
18:45<TrueBrain>not really ambigious
18:45<Eddi|zuHause>well. i understood it the wrong way
18:45<TrueBrain>at best you can be confused by 'the item value' being 'the value of the item'
18:45<Eddi|zuHause>that must mean it's ambiguous
18:46<TrueBrain>I am afraid it is a case of: too much used to documentation where 'value' immediatly triggers you to a key => value situation
18:46<Eddi|zuHause>"the index 'sign' does not exist" :(
18:47<TrueBrain>sadly, there is no wording that is, in your terms, un'ambigous' for everyone
18:48<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: i suggest "Returns: the 'item' value" (or item in italics)
18:48<TrueBrain>make a patch :D
18:48<TrueBrain>hihihihi :)
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18:49<Eddi|zuHause>so... where do i get a sign-function from?
18:49<TrueBrain>GSSign exists
18:50<Eddi|zuHause>no
18:50<Eddi|zuHause>i mean sign(-5) = -1
18:50<TrueBrain>if (i < 0)
18:50<TrueBrain>lolz
18:51<Eddi|zuHause>well, yeah... but that's less "beautiful" :)
18:52<TrueBrain>make a request :)
18:52<+glx>just do x/abs(x)
18:52<+glx>should do what you want
18:52<Eddi|zuHause>glx: because / is such a heavily quick operation :p
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19:02<Wolf01>'night
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19:20<Eddi|zuHause>the AI debug window could do with automatic line breaks...
19:21<Eddi|zuHause>or a horizontal scrollbar
19:21<TrueBrain>hehe
19:21<TrueBrain>or don't put too long of a text? :D
19:21<TrueBrain>no, you are right, it needs love :)
19:24<Eddi|zuHause>my set handling needs some love too
19:27<Eddi|zuHause>dbg: [misc] String too long for destination buffer
19:29<Eddi|zuHause>man... if i remove the debug output, the script is totally fast suddenly :p
19:32<Eddi|zuHause>so... script now runs without crashing
19:32<Eddi|zuHause>of course, the output is all wrong...
19:33<TrueBrain>lol :D
19:34<Eddi|zuHause>player can't click on GS-signs
19:35<TrueBrain>nope
19:35<TrueBrain>they are also transparent
19:35<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, they look like town names
19:36<TrueBrain>its pretty :D
19:36<TrueBrain>but I think I also allow GS to make signs under OWNER_NONE
19:36<TrueBrain>which players can click (and modify)
19:37<Eddi|zuHause>random thought: if i place a sign with a town name, i could associate a scrollto-event to clicking that
19:37<TrueBrain>sorry, I fail to parse what your random thought is ..
19:37<TrueBrain>it is late and my english fails horribly :P
19:39<Eddi|zuHause>assume i place a sign in town X: "Neighbour: Y"
19:39<Eddi|zuHause>then the player clicks on "Y" and nothing happens. if i could associate an action with clicking a sign, i could make it "scrollto(Y)" or somesuch
19:41<Eddi|zuHause>do we have multiline-signs yet?
19:41<TrueBrain>I think that would be very hard to accomplish ;)
19:41<frosch>signs are limits to like 20 chars, so what do you want with multiline? :p
19:41<TrueBrain>and no, no multiline signs as far as I know :)
19:44<Eddi|zuHause>www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Unbenannt,%201.%20Jan%201922_1.png <-- this looks a little not-right with so many signs :)
19:45<Eddi|zuHause>(the values are still wrong, of course)
19:48<TrueBrain>even double values
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20:03<Eddi|zuHause>function cmp(x, y) { return (x>y)?1:(x==y)?0:-1; } <-- is there no default function for that?
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20:32<+glx>Eddi|zuHause: _cmp maybe
20:33<+glx>hmm no it's a meta function
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20:47<Eddi|zuHause>the annoying part about "restart" is that it closes the debug window
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21:01<Eddi|zuHause>soo... fixed the duplicates, now need to fix the algorithm :)
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21:13<Eddi|zuHause>hm... there are sporadic leftover black lines in x4 zoom
21:15<Eddi|zuHause>appears to be near foundations
21:15<Eddi|zuHause>but not all foundations
21:24<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: on zoom out, the tiny town names have shadow, but the tiny signs don't
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21:58*Eddi|zuHause WTFs on sanctuary...
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---Logclosed Sun Nov 27 00:00:51 2011