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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-11-28

---Logopened Mon Nov 28 00:00:53 2011
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02:01<Elukka>http://i.imgur.com/OCnEK.jpg
02:01<Elukka>that sure is a weird bug someone is having
02:03<Eddi|zuHause>looks like someone who installed chills patchpack without the additional grfs
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02:08<@planetmaker>moin
02:11*Arafangion wonders how well OpenTTD scales up with map size.
02:13<Eddi|zuHause>rather bad
02:17<Arafangion>Worse than O(N^2)?
02:17<Eddi|zuHause>depends on your value of N
02:18<Arafangion>In big-o notation, "N" is the most significant value.
02:18<Arafangion>Wel, the 'N^2' part.
02:18<Eddi|zuHause>that's like the least sensible answer you could possibly give
02:18<Arafangion>And I'm referring to the size of the map.
02:19<Arafangion>Ie, "N" is the size in tiles, assuming a square map.
02:19<Arafangion>The length, rather. (Damn, where's my language today?)
02:19<Eddi|zuHause>if N is "the size of the map" in the sense of the settings map_x and map_y, then it's exponential
02:19<Arafangion>Ie, x^N?
02:19<Eddi|zuHause>if N is "the number of tiles on the map", it's more near linear
02:20<Arafangion>Hmm, so it's effectively O(N^2)
02:20<Arafangion>But you're implying that there are other, more serious factors?
02:20<Eddi|zuHause>there are LOTS of factors
02:21<Eddi|zuHause>used industry/house newgrfs
02:21<Eddi|zuHause>number of vehicles
02:21<Eddi|zuHause>complexity of your network
02:21<Eddi|zuHause>size of towns
02:21<Eddi|zuHause>number of towns
02:21<Arafangion>Size of towns?
02:21<Arafangion>This is all in a single thread?
02:22<Eddi|zuHause>yes
02:22<Arafangion>Nice. :)
02:23<Eddi|zuHause>one significant factor is the amount of cargo
02:23<Arafangion>Actually, *that* surprises me.
02:23<Arafangion>I would've thought that the amount of cargo was essentially insignificant?
02:24<Eddi|zuHause>all cargo packets on the map are looped regularly, to "age" the cargo
02:25<Eddi|zuHause>and with cargo destinations it becomes even worse
02:25<Arafangion>Makes sense.
02:25<Arafangion>I gotta go, but it seems that OpenTTD is vastly more complicated the more time I look at it. :)
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02:42<@planetmaker>Arafangion: somewhere the 300k LOC have to have an effect ;-)
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03:24<Celestar>\o
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03:32<dihedral>oi
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04:26<Xaroth>o/
04:27<dihedral>Xa-woot?
04:31<appe>morning
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04:33<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, you'd've thought a cargo date would've solved that
04:35<@peter1138>of course, then it would age when it 'shouldn't'
04:40<Celestar>double apostrophe? :P
04:44-!-tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-172-134.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd
04:47<dihedral>http://wiki.luukland.net/User:Luukland <- Resolution ;-)
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04:53<@peter1138>heh
04:54<Brianetta>morning
04:59<V453000>wut :d
05:11*Brianetta knows a Peter Nelson IRL
05:11<Xaroth>dihedral: expensive bottle of bubbles that is..
05:12<Xaroth>lol @ the history of that page, dih.
05:14<@peter1138>clones O_o
05:15*peter1138 smirks at FS#4855
05:16<Xaroth>broken!
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05:24<dihedral>that's worth a smile :-)
05:31<Celestar>@openttd bug 4855
05:31<@DorpsGek>Celestar: Temporary Offline
05:31<Celestar>....
05:33<Celestar>*sigh*
05:33*Celestar is done with SWTOR feedback.
05:33-!-hanf [~Klaus@host-2-96-17-115.as13285.net] has joined #openttd
05:33<@planetmaker>yeah... the DDR is gone and we got the dope :-P
05:36-!-lugo [lugo@209.141.56.5] has joined #openttd
05:36<Celestar>What a pity that bioware left out the whole industry part in SWTOR
05:39<Noldo>hm?
05:40<MNIM>Star Wars : the old republic?
05:47<Celestar>yes
05:49-!-andythenorth [~Andy@78-86-194-127.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd
05:50<Celestar>it's actually not bad.
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06:24*Celestar wonders why this stupid monitor is unable to turn the stupid OSD while the monitor is in Portrait configuration
06:26<b_jonas>Celestar: is it a monitor that's originally intended to be usable as portait, such as coming with a frame that allows you to set it up portrait?
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06:43<Celestar>b_jonas: yeah
07:03-!-Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b29.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
07:18<@peter1138>yeah, mine has no sensors for that
07:18<@peter1138>also it looks really strange
07:18<@peter1138>it was good for openbve though
07:21<@peter1138>looks like a completely different aspect ratio
07:52<@peter1138>stupid drivers
07:52<@peter1138>the resolution list is in the wrong aspect ratio when rotated
07:52<@peter1138>can't play fullscreen :(
07:54<Celestar>ffs.
07:54<Celestar>I got 3 upcoming meetings this afternoon.
07:54<Celestar>all in room "tbd".
07:54*Celestar is happy that he doesn't have to move about.
07:55<Celestar>why don't they just label all meeting rooms "tbd" ...
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08:27<@blathijs>Celestar: I'm afraid that means the meeting rooms are still to be constructed...
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08:40<b_jonas>Celestar: that means they've now told what room the meeting is in, put that info on a random place on the web (or an IRL bulletin board) you'll never find even if you look for it, and forgot to notify you about it. then they'll ask you afterwards why you didn't come.
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09:09<@peter1138>brrr, so cold
09:10<Celestar>b_jonas: as always.
09:16<andythenorth>this is just what the coop makefile does, no? http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=57500
09:23<@Belugas>hello
09:32<@peter1138>i don't really get it. last time i make a newgrf it was seconds...
09:32<@peter1138>*made
09:36<andythenorth>can be ~1 min for a big newgrf, worse if you have a poor performing O
09:36<andythenorth>S
09:37<@peter1138>is it multithreaded ;)
09:41<andythenorth>is it xml?
09:41<andythenorth>does it offset the work to your GPU?
09:41<andythenorth>is it HD?
09:43<@peter1138>i could add support for "HD" sprites
09:43<@peter1138>HD ready maybe
09:45<@planetmaker>andythenorth: the coop makefile does a pre-processing which will put together a big nfo or nml file. Building a NewGRF from several 'object' files is something which I don't see happen anytime soon. If at all
09:46<@planetmaker>peter1138: I like the idea of 'HD ready'. We should add stickers to OpenTTD and a big flashy sign in the start-up screen which also tells that
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09:55*andythenorth likes the idea of vehicles in vehicles
09:55<andythenorth>how about a sticker on the box for that?
09:56<andythenorth>"now with Vehicles-in-Vehicles®tm"
09:57<@planetmaker>"now with the power of the new grf v8" ;-)
09:57<@planetmaker>and people will ask like "I don't see anything new!" :-P
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10:10<andythenorth>planetmaker: 'snappier'
10:10<andythenorth>like an apple OS update :P
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10:31<@peter1138>andythenorth, what, we'd charge for it?
10:39<andythenorth>maybe
10:39<andythenorth>although without going all fanboi, apple updates are free or cheap :
10:39<andythenorth>:P
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10:55*Rubidium wonders whether Celestar is still online
10:56<@Rubidium>as he usually disconnects right before I'm back from work
10:57<Arafangion>Hmm, not a good sign, I'm afraid. :(
10:58<Eddi|zuHause>the difference between people online AT work, and people online AFTER work :p
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11:00<Arafangion>:) G'night folks!
11:10*TrueBrain is content. Just finished bi-directional communication between GameScript and AdminPort :D
11:10<TrueBrain>I love that shit :)
11:11*Rubidium is sad, TrueBrain isn't on the content service ;)
11:11*TrueBrain copies itself to it
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11:30<Xaroth>Rubidium: I wonder under what category one would have to file a TrueBrain
11:30<TrueBrain>Useless Toys?
11:31<Eddi|zuHause>"Are you thinking what i am thinking?"
11:38<Celestar>Rubidium: nope :P
11:38<Celestar>Rubidium: I'm gone :D
11:38<Celestar>*poof*
11:38<@Rubidium>ciao Celestar
11:40<Celestar>nah
11:40<Celestar>I'm on for 20 more minutes, roughly
11:40<Celestar>...in case my connection hasn't just died :P
11:40<Celestar>which it apparently has.
11:40<Celestar>hello?!
11:40<@peter1138>hel
11:40<@peter1138>lo
11:42<Celestar>so .. erm .. hi Rubidium (=
11:47<Celestar>because I gotta run now :P
11:47<Celestar>cya
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11:49<Eddi|zuHause>weird 20 minutes he has
11:49<TrueBrain>I think he is moving slower than us
11:50<Eddi|zuHause>that's also weird, because "fast" is one of the least likely attributes people would give me :p
11:51<TrueBrain>well, you are on this rock called earth, which is moving with a nice speed through space too
11:51<TrueBrain>maybe Celestar is outside of the earth
11:51<TrueBrain>I dunno .... :P
11:51<TrueBrain>(it still makes no sense, I know, but shut up :P)
11:51<Eddi|zuHause>he said his astronaut carreer kinda fell through :p
11:52<TrueBrain>in the literal sense maybe?
11:53<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, the speed of earth is kinda irrelevant wrt time dilation, because it's only the relative speed that counts
11:54<TrueBrain>and if he is standing still, there is a relative difference, is ther enot? :)
11:54<TrueBrain>(with respect to the earth)
11:54<TrueBrain>it is still neglectable, hence my remark, but I had to come up with something why for him time goes by twice as fast :P
11:55<Eddi|zuHause>it's almost thrice
11:56<@planetmaker>TrueBrain: what is "standing still"? ;-)
11:56-!-TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc12-linl7-2-0-cust144.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd
11:57<MNIM>Well, perhaps he's closer to the equator?
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11:57<MNIM>the closer to the equator you are, the faster you move, as the radius of that circle that turns .1 degree per minute increases
11:57<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: well, the point is, there's no way to go "slower" than you are, because you have always speed 0
12:00<TrueBrain>planetmaker: like said, with respect to the earth ;)
12:00<@peter1138>gah
12:00<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: and that was my point: you never have speed 0
12:00<@peter1138>why does this have to be written in actionscript? :(
12:01<TrueBrain>from some .. what is the english word ... "iniitaalstelse" .. euuhh ...
12:01<TrueBrain>you always have a speed :P
12:01<TrueBrain>even my dutch fails horribly, lolz
12:03<MNIM>Oh lol, don't worry
12:03<MNIM>I'm dutch
12:03<TrueBrain>so translate it for me ffs :P
12:03<MNIM>and I'm afraid my writing skill is better in english than in dutch >.<
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13:15<Zuu>Why does the English string for STR_CONFIG_SETTING_ZOOM_MIN say, _maximum_ zoom in level?
13:15<frosch123>it is zoom in vs. zoom out
13:16<frosch123>maximum zoom in and maximum zoom out
13:16<Zuu>that refers to some zoom axis. okay I get it.
13:16<frosch123>it's the viewport zoom
13:17<Eddi|zuHause>string could use a less ambiguous name, though
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13:39*andythenorth has been pondering
13:43<Xaroth>that's a dangerous thing to do
13:44<andythenorth>for a truck set...vehicles that get less reliable / cost more to run for cargos like rock than for cargos like goods
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: translators * r23346 /trunk/src/lang/swedish.txt:
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: swedish - 8 changes by Zuu
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13:47<andythenorth>also - what reasons are there to choose a truck with a sleeper cab versus not?
13:47<andythenorth>gameplay reasons...
13:48<frosch123>the latter only drives 1/3 of the time
13:48<andythenorth>I wondered that :P
13:48<andythenorth>measure travel time, then stop for a bit :P
13:54<@Terkhen>hello
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13:55<andythenorth>hola Terkhen
13:56*andythenorth wonders how many trailers trucks should be able to pull
13:56<Xaroth>depends if you're going for the american road train concept
13:56<Xaroth>if so, a LOT.
13:57*andythenorth has learnt too much about weights and length limits for trucks :P
13:57<@Rubidium>25,25m is the max length here
13:57<andythenorth>most us states limit to doubles
13:57<andythenorth>some allow triples
13:57<+glx>Xaroth: australian is more impressive I think
13:57<Xaroth>glx: probably
13:57<andythenorth>australia allows doubles and triples on highway
13:57<andythenorth>aus - unlimited length off highway
13:58*andythenorth might do parameters for different regions
13:58<andythenorth>don't really like reality much though :P
14:00<@Rubidium>andythenorth: in the NLs doubles and even triples are allowed on the highway as well (given some preconditions)
14:01<andythenorth>I was trying to figure some way to allow that but limit it
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14:01<andythenorth>if every truck can have triples, then everybody will always just build triples :P
14:02<andythenorth>kind of dull
14:02<@Rubidium>well, in the NL a double or triple would be equally long
14:02<andythenorth>LHV rules?
14:02*andythenorth has been to wikipedia and such :P
14:03<@Rubidium>somewhat, though... 25,25m and 60t vs 18,75m and 50t
14:03<@Rubidium>the latter is for a regular truck
14:04<@Rubidium>DfT has no humour; they should've allowed them to be 4 inches longer ;)
14:05<@Rubidium>11 axle 111ft 11in truck ;)
14:05<Eddi|zuHause>the only regular vehicle in germany that may have two trailers is an agricultural tractor
14:06<andythenorth>hmm
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14:06<andythenorth>I could do general parameters for limiting trailers
14:06<andythenorth>or I could have groups of vehicles for regions, again with parameters
14:06<Eddi|zuHause>there are "oversized" vehicles that obey to different rules, but they are subject to very specific limitations on usage
14:07*andythenorth is searching for some interesting gameplay ideas for trucks
14:07<andythenorth>the actual trucks are going to be pretty vanilla, all made from modular components
14:08<andythenorth>it would be interesting to make choices about truck x or truck y instead of 'build largest + fastest'
14:08<andythenorth>bridge weight limits :P
14:08<andythenorth>town limits :P
14:10-!-Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Tschüß]
14:10<andythenorth>roadtypes :P
14:11<Zuu>In NL, are busses of 25.25 m allowed or just trucks?
14:12<@Rubidium>we have busses of 25m
14:12<Zuu>Here the limit is 18,75 for buses although there exist some exceptions that has got special permision.
14:13<Zuu>For trucks we have the same longer limit as you.
14:13<@Rubidium>I'd like to call them karts; they generally go faster through the city than the normal 11m busses
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14:22<Eddi|zuHause>"Heute fahren Doppelgelenkbusse als niederflurige Konstruktionen in den Niederlanden, Deutschland, Schweden und Luxemburg. Dabei werden vor allem Fahrzeuge des belgischen Herstellers Van Hool, darunter vor allem der Typ AGG 300, eingesetzt."
14:23<Eddi|zuHause>http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:Doppelgelenkbus_01_KMJ.jpg&filetimestamp=20050208100411 <-- says "Length: 24,8m"
14:24<andythenorth>pah
14:24<andythenorth>buses :P
14:24<frosch123>buses are as stupid as multiple-units in trainsets
14:25<andythenorth>so assume everyone uses egrvts currently, what would you like to be different from it?
14:25<frosch123>nicer graphics
14:25<frosch123>egrvs is kind of blurry
14:26<Eddi|zuHause>i don't use eGRVTS
14:26<Eddi|zuHause>i'd like a split off with only the horse drawn vehicles
14:26<andythenorth>I am not planning any horses :)
14:26<andythenorth>maybe there's a window there
14:26<andythenorth>I'm not planning buses either
14:27<Eddi|zuHause>i use GermanRV usually, but it has only generic/stupid trucks
14:29<andythenorth>what's stupid about them?
14:29<andythenorth>for reference...
14:30<Eddi|zuHause>they're only re-codings of the original trucks, because development of the truck section has been stuck for very long and was holding back on a release
14:31<andythenorth>hmm
14:32<andythenorth>planning a truck set is kind of tricky
14:32<andythenorth>HEQS is easy :
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14:32<Wolf01>evenink
14:35<andythenorth>I might make some untrue assumptions, like 6x4 trucks are better at going up hill than 6x2 trucks
14:39<Eddi|zuHause>there's a list of proposed trucks here: http://uwe.s2000.at/ttdx/germanrv/trucks.php?lang=en
14:41*andythenorth looks
14:42<@peter1138>anyone ported that polygon map generator yet? ;)
14:42<@peter1138>anyone(tm)
14:42<Eddi|zuHause>haha :p
14:42<andythenorth>anyone done rivers > 1 tile wide?
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14:43*andythenorth looked at the river code, but understood it < 100%
14:43<Wolf01>it would be interesting if you understood it > 1100%
14:43<Wolf01>*-1000
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14:43<@Rubidium>andythenorth: it's easy ;)
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>my triangulation algorithm still has some sporadic wrong results, which i can't isolate
14:44<Wolf01>try using > 5 points like GPS
14:44<@Rubidium>just "flooding" to the closest lower point and then pathfinding between those with a random distance function
14:45<andythenorth>I looked for an obvious 'change this value to 2 for 2 tile rivers'
14:45<andythenorth>didn't see it :P
14:45<andythenorth>I figured that would need a different approach
14:46<andythenorth>drawing a tile either side of the path (like a spline)
14:46<andythenorth>incidentally if we wanted diagonals for rivers, I'd draw them. I'll moan about it, but I'll do it
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14:47<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: i mean this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delaunay_triangulation
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15:00<LordAro>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=982100#p982100 <-- i'll let someone else more flame-y than i reply to that :L
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15:03<andythenorth>LordAro: he's trolling
15:03<andythenorth>for lulz
15:04<LordAro>it would be more fun to go along with it :)
15:08<andythenorth>he is quite concerned to help us get more than 300 players
15:08<andythenorth>which might be a valid goal
15:08<andythenorth>have we got 300 players yet?
15:09<LordAro>must be pretty close by now
15:10<valhallasw>I'd rather estimate it at
15:10<valhallasw>that it's OVER NINE THOUSAND~~~~~~~
15:10<valhallasw>[/caps abuse]
15:10<andythenorth>at least nine thousand
15:12<@planetmaker>I countd 234 players currently
15:12<@planetmaker>but most will not play on public servers, I guess
15:13<TWerkhoven>or concurrently
15:23<@Terkhen>I reckon that many people do not play online
15:25<b_jonas>how do you count them?
15:25<LordAro>i certainly very rarely play online
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15:31<@planetmaker>@base 0x53 + 2*12
15:31<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: Error: '0x53' is not a valid base.
15:32<@planetmaker>@calc 0x53 + 2*12
15:32<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 107
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16:04<@Terkhen>good night
16:06<andythenorth>Terkhen: bye :)
16:07<@peter1138>hm
16:07<@planetmaker>g'night
16:09<andythenorth>early bed times :)
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16:09*andythenorth does work
16:10*peter1138 does not
16:12<andythenorth>try debugging
16:12<andythenorth>or switch it on and off again
16:13<andythenorth>I often find it useful to hit refresh when something doesn't work
16:13<andythenorth>just to see
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16:14<B-17>Hello.
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16:54<@Belugas>haaaa... imagine how popular would OpenTTD be if it was in 3D... man... It could be sold, and it will sale like water bottles in sahara
16:55<andythenorth>we'd be rich
16:55<andythenorth>we?
16:55<@Belugas>poor guy... he does not understand at all...
16:55<@Belugas>we?
16:55<andythenorth>I think he's a troll
16:55<@Rubidium>Belugas: they already have too many water bottles in the Sahara ;)
16:55<andythenorth>Rubidium would be rich :P
16:55<@Belugas>he's a stinking troll
16:55<@Belugas>ho... ok Rubidium :)
16:56<andythenorth>T_Tycoon?
16:56<@Belugas>like water bottles on Mars
16:56<@Belugas>yes andythenorth
16:56<andythenorth>the name is troll
16:56<@Rubidium>only "problem" it's the empty type of water bottle
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16:56<andythenorth>probably he's just a silly kid, but it seems troll-esque to me
16:56<@Belugas>bottle of rhum on a pirate ship at drift since a week!
16:56*andythenorth goes back to plotting trucks
16:57<andythenorth>a truck for every cargo type, or refits?
16:57*Belugas goes back to home and basement improvement. another gyps wall to put on, a few more sound proof foam to lay down, a heater to install...
16:57<@Rubidium>one truck for each cargo, then refitting it for speed and capacity ;)
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16:58<andythenorth>refit for costs
16:58<andythenorth>I would like my truck to be (1) expensive (2) very expensive (3) cheap
16:59<@Rubidium>e.g refitting the "People truck" to MPS Regal, Hereford Leopard, Foster and Forst MkII
16:59<andythenorth>it's a winning idea
17:00<andythenorth>if we had a nested tree GUI for refits that would be better
17:01<andythenorth>truck -> people truck -> MPS Regal, Hereford Leopard etc
17:01<andythenorth>then only one vehicle needed
17:02<andythenorth>hmm
17:02<andythenorth>can we nest it further
17:02<andythenorth>vehicle -> truck -> etc
17:03<andythenorth>implement everything as a plane, make it fly at altitude 0
17:04<andythenorth>in fact, let's remove as much variety as possible
17:05<andythenorth>if we work really hard, we can get the game down to a single button
17:05<andythenorth>you click it, and it says
17:06<andythenorth>"You Win"
17:06<andythenorth>in HD
17:10<andythenorth>good night
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17:26<@peter1138>hm
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17:42<Wolf01>'night all
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17:49<Eddi|zuHause>i have a feeling debug output is actually a very expensive operation in squirrel
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18:03<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: it is not only a feeling
18:03<Eddi|zuHause>i also have a feeling that float precision is not high enough
18:04<TrueBrain>I have a feeling you should avoid floats :P
18:04<Eddi|zuHause>so i'm getting 0's where they shouldn't be
18:04<TrueBrain>make them 1s?
18:04<Eddi|zuHause>well, they're kinda helpful in algebraic calculations
18:04*TrueBrain ponders releasing a new NoGo ..
18:05<TrueBrain>I want to see the new sprakles in action ..
18:05<TrueBrain>sparkles
18:05<TrueBrain>typing is *hard*
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18:12<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: what would be the reason to avoid floats, actually?
18:15<TrueBrain>I hate floats :)
18:15<TrueBrain>just a general thing I have :)
18:15<TrueBrain>nowedays using floats is a good thing, with offloading of all that shit etc :P
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18:16<TrueBrain>the only reason to avoid floats in Squirrel would be that we don't support save/loading them, nor sending them to the AdminPort :P
18:17<TrueBrain>but that is just very minor bullshit :)
18:17<@Yexo>hmm, we don't support saving/loading of floats?
18:17<TrueBrain>nope
18:18<TrueBrain>integers, booleans, string, array and tables
18:18<TrueBrain>owh, and null :P
18:18<TrueBrain>and given by the fact nobody complained about it, I am guessing nobody is using save/load functionality of the AI :D (or nobody uses floats :P But I doubt that)
18:19<@Yexo>floats aren't that useful for AIs
18:19<TrueBrain>I guess
18:19<@Yexo>and saving/loading is a bitch, so you might be right that a lot of people avoid it
18:19<TrueBrain>I can't blame them :)
18:19<TrueBrain>it has to be used for GS much more
18:19<TrueBrain>so we will see how that goes
18:19<@Yexo>in any case, the important parts to save are most likely integers (all IDs)
18:20<TrueBrain>anyway, Eddi|zuHause, I always rather fancy multiplying by some amount (1024, ..) to create a float in integer
18:21<TrueBrain>it gives me both a resolution of my liking, and a value I can work with easily
18:21<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: that's a fixed point number
18:21<TrueBrain>I dislike floats moving around in their resolution depending on what you put in it
18:21<Eddi|zuHause>not a float point number :)
18:21<TrueBrain>it annoys the crap out of me :)
18:21<TrueBrain>that is what I am saying, am I not?
18:21<@Yexo>it can be very useful when you need really large numbers
18:21<TrueBrain>Yexo: even in Astronomy I avoid floats :)
18:22<TrueBrain>and then I talk about really large values from time to time :)
18:22<@Yexo>yesterday during a programming contest we faced a problem were calculations would overflow a 64 bit integer so we used doubles to avoid that
18:22<TrueBrain>if you don't need the precision, that works, yup :)
18:22<@Yexo>ok, it was ugly, but it worked :p
18:23<Eddi|zuHause>use 128bit integers :)
18:23<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: you want ot kill the algorithm al together? :P
18:23<@Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: and how would you do that without external libraries?
18:23<TrueBrain>write your own! :P
18:23<@Yexo>and in very limited amount of time?
18:23<Eddi|zuHause>dbg: [ai] [18] [E] Error: inconsistent projections <-- ok, i broke it
18:23<TrueBrain>in C++ it is not _that_ hard, but ugh .....
18:23*TrueBrain gives Eddi|zuHause a cookie :(
18:24<@Yexo>I didn't know nml was this slow when compiling cets
18:24<@Yexo>it takes over 5 minutes on my laptop
18:24<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: integer multiplication should already yield 128 bit, so it's just a matter of picking the right assembler code :)
18:24<@Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: assembler code was not allowed
18:25<TrueBrain>ugh, why does that remind me of Dune2, with its endless 16bit register for 32bit variables shit
18:25<TrueBrain>such ugly code :P
18:25<TrueBrain>add + adc ftw ....
18:25<Eddi|zuHause>it's one of the most annoying parts of C (or many higher languages), that it just throws away the upper half of the result of an integer multiplication
18:26<Eddi|zuHause>or one of div/mod for integer division, while all known algorithms provide both
18:26<TrueBrain>try doing ror or rol in C :)
18:26<@Yexo>yeah, it's a beartrap in c: uint64 a = int32 * int32; will still throw away the upper 32 bits
18:30<TrueBrain>haha, epic, GS can now build signs for other companies :D
18:30<TrueBrain>hihi
18:31<TrueBrain>for some reason I expect a lot of abuse from it, but lets hope it will be used more for good :)
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18:33<TrueBrain>this is starting to be a very thin line I come to realise :) Some weird options come to mind ....
18:36<Eddi|zuHause>don't limit functionality too much
18:37<TrueBrain>that is the issue :P
18:37<TrueBrain>I just kicked the door WIDE open
18:37<TrueBrain>a GS can now be an AI for all purposes
18:37<TrueBrain>in fact, it can be all 15 AIs ...
18:37<TrueBrain>I hope you agree that is not limiting :D
18:38<Eddi|zuHause>imagine a tutorial that builds a few signals for you as an example
18:38<TrueBrain>for that I want it to be used
18:38<TrueBrain>as that is one of the goals of NoGo
18:38<TrueBrain>but I am afraid it will be used for many other much more nasty things to come :D
18:38<TrueBrain>"assisted AI" :P
18:38<Eddi|zuHause>hehe :)
18:43<Eddi|zuHause>i really need this "scrollto xy" on clicking a sign, to debug this thing
18:44<TrueBrain>use the arrows
18:44<TrueBrain>owh, that
18:44<TrueBrain>lol
18:44<TrueBrain>nevermind :D
18:44<TrueBrain>well, with clever signs you can do it
18:44<TrueBrain>but it will be a pita ...
18:44<TrueBrain>hack the client or something?
18:45<Eddi|zuHause>i have a feeling placing signs is taking longer than calculating the triangulation
18:45<TrueBrain>1 sign per tick
18:45<TrueBrain>so you might be right
18:45<TrueBrain>make sure youhave AIs set to fastest
18:45<TrueBrain>else it takes even longer :)
18:45<TrueBrain>signs are a very slow way to debug :)
18:46<TrueBrain>even slower would be to build roads between the towns you connect :P
18:46<Eddi|zuHause>maybe i should sort the neighbours by polar coordinates
18:47<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: that kills my idea to place a sign on each border tile :p
18:47<TrueBrain>hmm
18:47<TrueBrain>you remind me I still want a patch that shows towns influence
18:47<TrueBrain>those radius towns have you know
18:47<TrueBrain>a highlight around tiles to which a town belongs
18:47<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: afair there was a tile highlighting patch that does something like this
18:48<TrueBrain>I know there have been for stations
18:48<TrueBrain>as I miss it there too
18:48<TrueBrain>but they are all fuck-slow, as far as I remember :)
18:49<Eddi|zuHause>so... polar coordinates... do we have sin/cos/tan functions? :)
18:50<TrueBrain>not that I know of .. same as a sqrt function :P
18:50<TrueBrain>there is no need for an AI to use them, so having them only makes people use them who don't know shit about not to use them :D But they might have been added in the last 2 years :P
18:50<Eddi|zuHause>well, i can program a sqrt function by heron's method :)
18:50<TrueBrain>many did :)
18:51<Eddi|zuHause>but since i only want to compare, i think i might get along without sin/cos stuf
18:51<TrueBrain>which is the conclusion many often make after finding the lack of those functions :D
18:51<TrueBrain>hihihihi
18:51<TrueBrain>I am off to bed; night, and good luck Eddi|zuHause :)
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18:56<@Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: AIs have sqrt/sin/cos/etc. but they takes 100 opcodes to call
18:57<@Yexo>same goes for NoGo scripts, since it's squirrel functionality
18:57<Xaroth>expensive :o
18:58<@Yexo>that's the point :)
18:59<Eddi|zuHause>other thing, when i use GSList.Begin/Next, what is the most elegant way to get the item/value pair?
19:00<Eddi|zuHause>currently i throw away the item, only use the value...
19:00<@Yexo>don't use begin/next but use a foreach loop instead
19:00<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: i currently have a special case for the first two values
19:01<@Yexo>Begin/Next return the item, right?
19:01<Eddi|zuHause>yes
19:01<@Yexo>so what is the problem exactly?
19:01<Eddi|zuHause>i should just restructure my Node()-constructor
19:02<@Yexo>value = list.GetValue(item), but I don't think you were looking for that
19:03<z-MaTRiX>hi guys
19:03<z-MaTRiX>http://matrix.z-labor.com/tmp/C/textmode.tar.gz
19:04<z-MaTRiX>i was playing with this, font included optimization:none
19:07<z-MaTRiX>now the FPS counter can print the fps onto screen
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19:25<Eddi|zuHause>sooo... second order functions?
19:25<Eddi|zuHause>or partial function evaluation
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22:04<Eddi|zuHause>[29.11.2011 00:24] <Yexo> I didn't know nml was this slow when compiling cets <-- part of the problem is that it actually does a lot of work twice. once for the dependency run (i'm still not sure why that's needed) and once for the "real" output
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---Logclosed Tue Nov 29 00:00:53 2011