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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-11-29

---Logopened Tue Nov 29 00:00:53 2011
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06:58<TrueBrain>Good day to you,
06:58<TrueBrain>I hope this correspondence of mine meets you in good health.My name is Mr. Jacque Kouame, I am on the employment of one of the leading banks. I am writing to seek your cooperation for investment partnership in your country. Funds for the investment shall be provided by me.
06:58<TrueBrain>I will give you full details of my investment proposal on receipt of your acknowledgement of this correspondence.
06:58<TrueBrain>I await your response in earliest.
06:58<TrueBrain>doest that really work?
07:02<Noldo>emails are free
07:02<Noldo>writing one doesn't take long
07:02<Noldo>with one catch you are making profit
07:03<__ln__>there was an article some time ago about a finnish guy who has sent 35000€ to some african country in order to receive gold worth of 2 million AND a beautiful young wife, to whom he has been sending the money.
07:04<__ln__>he was upset that banks are refusing to loan him another 35000€ which would be required to actually get the gold.
07:13<@planetmaker>sounds like urban legend
07:16<__ln__>it does, but there was a picture and name and all... well here it is,
07:23<@planetmaker>__ln__, it's on the internet, thus it's true and real? ;-)
07:42<B-17>Everything in internet is real.
07:46<Elukka>it was pretty widely reported and i don't really see reason to doubt it
07:46<Elukka>they wouldn't send those mails if it didn't work
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07:48<Elukka>same thing with all that viagra spam
07:48<Elukka>they send it because people buy
07:49<B-17>"Buy viagra it makes ur dik biger lol"
07:50<Elukka>and people buy!
07:50<Elukka>though i guess unlike the "THIS IS TOTALLY SERIOUS AND REAL YOU WILL GET $50 MILLION" mails it's not really a scam
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07:55<TrueBrain>they just dont mention which dollar
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08:03<+michi_cc>Elukka: People buy because these more or less illegal shops are the only way for them to get prescription drugs as the legal way is too expensive for them. (German story:
08:04<Elukka>as i understand there's a whole thriving spam economy
08:04<Elukka>some people dig up email addresses and sell them off to spammers
08:04<Elukka>others code viruses to make zombie networks out of computers and sell time on them to spammers
08:04<Elukka>and the spammers sell whatever product they have to pay the others and make a profit
08:10<V453000>silly question, but ... can passenger wagons have different sprites for full/empty wagons?
08:10<V453000>I guess it could, right?
08:10<andythenorth>it could
08:10<V453000>\o/ thanks
08:11<B-17>OpenTTD should have military wagons.
08:11<B-17>With wepons or ammunation.
08:11<V453000>what would that be useful for
08:11<V453000>but I guess the ultimate answer is "make a newGRF" :p
08:12<andythenorth>make a newgrf
08:12<andythenorth>the military theme is one of the few 'banned' things in ottd
08:12<andythenorth>if you uploaded that to bananas, not sure what would happen
08:13<@peter1138>we wouldn't add it to the game, but user content is another matter
08:14<V453000>why is a "military" newgrf bad?
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08:16<andythenorth>there's the military helicopter somewhere
08:19<Mazur>I'd presume, military is bad, because the primary purpose of the military is war, and war is bad.
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08:21<V453000>I totally agree there
08:21<V453000>but if someone enjoys a newGRF that way, I would mainly look at how it works
08:21<V453000>we could say that computer games are also bad .. :)
08:22<Mazur>Well, haven't you heard? They are!
08:23<V453000>I will just go dig some NUTS :p
08:30<Mazur>Perhaps people are afraid, that once military cargoes are in the game, some people will demand and/or make OTTD into YAKSG (Yet Another "Kill Someone" Game).
08:31<Mazur>I personally love how OTTD is for once not about beating someone else, but purely about the means, the trains and cargoes.
08:33<Mazur>It was the main reason I started playing.
08:34<Arafangion>Mazur: It's not!?
08:35<Arafangion>I disagree. :)
08:35<Mazur>You can play competitively, but that's not a given.
08:35<Mazur>And even then it's not about killing.
08:36<Arafangion>Regardless, it's usually a given in most of the public multiplayer servers, I believe.
08:36<Mazur>I only play those.
08:36<Mazur>But not competitively.
08:37<Mazur>I loathe the concept that in order to feel good you have to prove yourself better than someone else.
08:38<Arafangion>Mazur: I don't think we can be friends. :)
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08:38<V453000>you literally cannot compete in openttd
08:39<Arafangion>V453000: How so?
08:39<Mazur>You can, by someone hosting the same game once for each contestant, and allowing each of them into one instance.
08:39<V453000>because any stats that a certain network shows cannot be compared and do not say whether the person is actually good or not
08:40<V453000>no not even that way Mazur
08:40<Mazur>Ah yes, network factor, true.
08:40<V453000>if you played "for money" for example, then you could notice that playing more dumbly is actually more profittable
08:41<V453000>why would you make hubs when you just need everything to go to the farthest point possible
08:41<Arafangion>Good point.
08:41<Arafangion>But still, even in competition games, hubs make sense.
08:41<@blathijs>V453000: So you actually mean that the network "quality" (whatever that's supposed to mean) is not measurable right now (certainly not by profits)?
08:41<V453000>blathijs: for sure
08:41<Arafangion>Because by eventually getting all your cargo at the farthest point, you'll have lots of whatever produce the industry makes.
08:51<B-17>War is bad indeed.
08:51<B-17>But without war goverment would kill civilians to test their new toys.
08:52<Mazur>B-17: Weapons manufacturers are generally private companies.
08:52<lugo>there would be no more need for such toys
08:55<B-17>Weapons are best selling things in the world.
08:55<B-17>Also the most interesing.
08:55<B-17>World without weapons just cannot exist, they're too interesing to abandon them,.
08:56<Mazur>I disagree. I find there is nothing interesting about weapons, that is not covered in other stuff.
08:57<Mazur>E.g. ballistics. No need for weapons to play with that.
08:57<lugo>well it did exist without them for quite some time..
08:58<Mazur>Indeed, lugo.
08:58<B-17>You say that weapons are useless, but if a man with a gun would stand infront of you with intent of killing you, you would be hella happy to have one too for self defense
08:59<Mazur>You know, people in te US generally have, people in hte Netherlands don't, guess which country more burglary victims get killed?
08:59<B-17>Also, lol, have you ever seen an economic game about beating?
09:00<B-17>Because you just said you love OpenTTD because there's no beating
09:02<B-17>Also Mazur, the problem is that US has lots of illegal weapons dealers.
09:02<B-17>So you can get a gun with ammo with cheap price.
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09:21<B-17>Why at the starting screen the boats go through themselves?
09:21<TrueBrain>because they do that in the game too
09:22<B-17>That's unreallistic.
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09:26<TrueBrain>lol; you seriously complained that OpenTTD is unrealistic?
09:26<TrueBrain>owh, where to start pointing out how unrealistic OpenTTD is ....
09:27<B-17>Lol but realism is breaking the game more than makes it more enjoyable.
09:27<Elukka>B-17: it has nothing to do with weapons being "interesting", what the hell
09:27<B-17>Weapons are good.
09:28<Elukka>just as a blanket statement all weapons are good?
09:28<TinoDidriksen>You'd have to change the relative scale of the whole game to get near realism...
09:28<B-17>Well, not all.
09:28<B-17>Some of them suck.
09:28<Elukka>how do you feel about the humongous military spending of the US government?
09:29<B-17>USA always do that stuff, because they cannot think first.
09:30<Elukka>they do it because they have a hugely powerful and influential armaments industry
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09:31<B-17>And because of oil.
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10:27<Eddi|zuHause><Elukka> <-- the actually interesting thing is that they find the time to print actual artwork on them. compare with this example of the usage of a "one million mark" bill:,_Inflation,_Ein-Millionen-Markschein.jpg
10:28<Elukka>well i suppose these days you've got a photoshop file and when your glorious currency inflates by a few thousand percent you just change the numbers a bit
10:29<Elukka>probably have the same art for the previous bills
10:29<Eddi|zuHause>in the later stages, the bills had "valid until <date>" printed on them
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10:56*andythenorth doesn't understand
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11:04<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: didn't you want to remove the "LATEST" link from the cillpp-download page?
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11:27<__ln__>very nice... for my 5-day trip in europe i only have 4 different currencies with me.
11:28<b_jonas>__ln__: USD, EUR, GBP, CHS?
11:28<Eddi|zuHause>that'll be 10 for the same trip in ~5-10 years :P
11:28<Eddi|zuHause>CHS? did you mean CHF?
11:28<__ln__>b_jonas: i'm not aware of any european country using USD.
11:29*andythenorth only accepts dollars in HD
11:29<__ln__>b_jonas: EUR, DKK, PLN, SEK.
11:29<b_jonas>__ln__: they're not using it, but it can make sense to carry it because you can change it in many places if needed
11:30<b_jonas>probably you can't compute in advance how much you'll spend and can carry the extra as USD if you already have it, to avoid the losses of changing
11:30<b_jonas>that's if you already have USD anyway
11:30<Eddi|zuHause>b_jonas: and in which place do they take USD but not EUR?
11:30<b_jonas>Eddi|zuHause: I assumed __ln__ already gets his wages in USD so he has some
11:30*andythenorth will promise to work on the dollars in the future, as long as they're in HD
11:30<Eddi|zuHause>why would he do that?
11:31<b_jonas>Eddi|zuHause: he said "trip in europe", that sounds like he's american
11:31*andythenorth thinks this irc channel should be in HD
11:31<Eddi|zuHause>and did you try a /whois yet?
11:31<andythenorth>it will get more users if it's HD
11:33<b_jonas>what channel flag is that?
11:33<__ln__>andythenorth: you can move your chair 2 feet farther from the screen and the same resolution will fit in a smaller are in your eyes.
11:33<andythenorth>my chair isn't HD
11:34<Eddi|zuHause>you have an ANALOGUE chair?!?
11:34<andythenorth>a HD version of my chair would gain more users than paid-for chairs
11:34<andythenorth>my chair is a sofa. That's like HD right?
11:34<Eddi|zuHause>no, that's like widescreen
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11:39<andythenorth>so what's the definition of HD then?
11:39<Eddi|zuHause>the resolution!
11:39<Eddi|zuHause>it looks realistic!!! :p
11:40<andythenorth>you mean SD isn't realistic? :o
11:40<@Rubidium>NewGRFs are mostly HD anyhow... at least, someone was high when defining it ;)
11:40<__ln__>HD is 10 times slower than SD.
11:41<andythenorth>is it 10 times more realistic :P
11:41*andythenorth wonders if T_Tycoon would understand "ceci n'est pas une pipe"
11:41<andythenorth>wrt realism
11:41<andythenorth>that pipe would be more realistic in HD
11:42<Elukka>here, in resolution far above HD
11:43<Eddi|zuHause>so NewGRFs were defined by dutch people? :p
11:43<Elukka>it's still not a pipe though
11:43<andythenorth>Elukka: that is more realistic
11:43<@Rubidium>,_Blue,_and_Yellow.jpg <- I guess those paintings are not HD... only 5 colours...
11:43<andythenorth>to be fair to T_Tycoon, I think he (she?) said 'more beautiful' not 'more realistic'
11:43<andythenorth>which is not a bad aim
11:47<@Belugas>questin is : what the hell does he keep looking at OpenTTD as a game???
11:47<andythenorth>because it's fun to troll us?
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11:58<Arkabzol>OpenTTD isn't a game, it's a drug.
11:59<Arkabzol>Also, question.
11:59<Arkabzol>Is water always at the same level?
12:01<TWerkhoven>yest, except for rivers
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12:04<andythenorth>and canals
12:04*peter1138 ponders this 32bpp recolouring lark
12:05<Arkabzol>But you can dig lower than that?
12:05<Arkabzol>I'm going to find out in just a sec anyway... but uh.
12:06<Arkabzol>Seems not.
12:09<TWerkhoven>im fairly sure you cannot dig beneath sealevel, as there is nothing you can build there anyway
12:09<Arkabzol>Yeah. I just found out.
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12:17<TrueBrain>there, new version of NoGo in the oven :D
12:18*Sacro grabs a plate
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12:24<B-17>No no no, Sacro, put that plate down.
12:26*Sacro sulks
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12:34<B-17>Take this instead.
12:34*B-17 gives Sacro a heavy metal tray.
12:36<B-17>What does that mean: 21kg of wood (2x)?
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12:41<@planetmaker>you're probably using a cargo weight multiplier of 2
12:41<@planetmaker>thus the 21t of wood you carry actually weigh 42t for the purpose of what the engine needs to pull
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12:49<B-17>Was anyone inside of a maglev IRL?
12:52<__ln__>i was, but it wasn't real. does that count?
12:53<B-17>You liar.
12:53<B-17>MagLev's exist IRL.
12:53<__ln__>i mean, i was inside a 1:1 replica of a maglev at Munich airport.
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12:54<B-17>But was it working?
12:55<__ln__>i doubt it had any kind of mag or lev in it.
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12:56<TrueBrain>how is he a liar for telling the truth?
12:56<TrueBrain>odd persception of a lie you have
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13:05<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: do you still need a disk?
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13:18<B-17>Everyone's a liar.
13:20<@Alberth>that's a paradox
13:22<andythenorth>Alberth: depends on your definition of formal logic iirc
13:24<@Alberth>no doubt you can invent a system where it is true :)
13:25<@Terkhen>everyone has lied at least once? :)
13:25<andythenorth>Alberth: I was reading wikipedia about it somewhere recently
13:25<andythenorth>but that could apply to just about anything :P
13:26*andythenorth is too tired for philosophy
13:26<@Alberth>you were reading that at, I think :p
13:26<andythenorth>as my other languages are....poor :P
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13:31<B-17>Everything lies.
13:32<B-17>Even the green text lies.
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13:37<Arkabzol>>greentext lying
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13:41<@Alberth>nice, that needs some tea
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13:44<B-17>Tea lies.
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: translators * r23347 /trunk/src/lang/ (5 files):
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: arabic_egypt - 72 changes by kasakg
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: dutch - 8 changes by habell
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: portuguese - 24 changes by JayCity
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: romanian - 41 changes by kkmic
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: russian - 1 changes by Lone_Wolf
13:45<@Alberth>B-17: help
13:46<B-17>Alberth: How?!
13:46<@Alberth>you're spinning a web of lies
13:46<B-17>And I'll trap you there.
13:46*B-17 traps Alberth in a web of lies.
13:47<frosch123>looks like turing test passed :p
13:47<B-17>Now lets wait for the lying spider.
13:47<Prof_Frink>An interweb of lies?
13:48<@Terkhen>turing test lies
13:48*Prof_Frink hits Sacro with the Book of Lies
13:49<TrueBrain>I am starting to wonder if any of you is real
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13:50<@DorpsGek>i am!
13:50<@Rubidium>I'm not!
13:50<TrueBrain>owh, you kids
13:50<B-17>Join my liar cause.
13:50<B-17>You'll be rich.
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13:51<B-17>Also TrueBrain, world is a lie.
13:51<Prof_Frink>B-17: Why should I believe you?
13:51<B-17>You are really in a huge virtual world being so reallistic you have barriers between fun.
13:51<B-17>Prof_Frink: Because I can't lie.
13:52<Prof_Frink>This statement is false.
13:52<B-17>You're false.
13:52<Prof_Frink>Your mum is false.
13:52<B-17>Operators please kick he for saying that I have no mother.
13:52<TrueBrain>@kick B-17 no problem; at least, I assume what you said was a lie
13:52-!-B-17 was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [no problem; at least, I assume what you said was a lie]
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13:52<TrueBrain>@kban B-17 10 no problem; at least, I assume what you said was a lie
13:52-!-mode/#openttd [+b *!] by DorpsGek
13:52-!-B-17 was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [no problem; at least, I assume what you said was a lie]
13:53<TrueBrain>auto-rejoins, I hate auto-rejoins :P
13:53-!-mode/#openttd [-b *!] by DorpsGek
13:53*Prof_Frink pats Dorpy
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13:53<B-17>I knew that the ban was a lie.
13:53<TrueBrain>@kban B-17 600 or was it?
13:53-!-mode/#openttd [+b *!] by DorpsGek
13:53-!-B-17 was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [or was it?]
13:53<andythenorth>T_Tycoon has repliet
13:53<TrueBrain>now he was just begging for it
13:54-!-mode/#openttd [+q *!B-17@*.*] by Rubidium
13:54<andythenorth>¿ but why don't we advertise in the game website for people to complete graphics?
13:54<andythenorth>it's a fair point
13:54<@Rubidium>I hope that helps ;)
13:54<Prof_Frink>Silence will fall.
13:54<TrueBrain>Rubidium: you spil all the fun :'(
13:54<@Rubidium>andythenorth: because it even fails for translations?
13:56<@Rubidium>and IMO you should have some good idea where you're heading instead of the total chaos that 32bpp graphics development is
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14:02<andythenorth>personally I wouldn't care if 32bpp got accidentally deleted
14:02<andythenorth>but still he might have a point
14:03<TrueBrain>pff, do you know how much work it took me to get 32bpp to work? Pfff :P
14:03-!-mode/#openttd [-b *!] by DorpsGek
14:03<andythenorth>TrueBrain: you are an under-appreciated hero :)
14:04<TrueBrain>I am sure I am not :P
14:04<Prof_Frink>TrueBrain: Time that could've been spent implementing custombridgeheads.
14:04<TrueBrain>Prof_Frink: hehe; hell no :)
14:05<andythenorth>or on Bananas 2 :)
14:06<andythenorth>TrueBrain: should you ever wish to tackle bananas 2...or even 1.5...
14:06<andythenorth>you could have the dubious pleasure of my help
14:06<TrueBrain>in the time there aws no BaNaNaS 1?
14:06<Prof_Frink>Bananas 2: Pineapple.
14:06<TrueBrain>would have been odd :P
14:07<andythenorth>anyway, GS doesn't fit in BaNaNaS
14:07<andythenorth>new acronym time
14:07<TrueBrain>the first one that breaks it indeed
14:07<andythenorth>new bananas time :P
14:07<TrueBrain>so far we could fiddle enough to make it fit :P
14:07<andythenorth>Banana Split?
14:07<@Alberth>banana script ;)
14:08<andythenorth>Green Bananas
14:09<@Rubidium>the S just stands for stuff
14:09<TrueBrain>and Stuff, haha :D
14:09<TrueBrain>or: And Scripts :)
14:09<@Rubidium>scenarios and heightmaps aren't scripts
14:10<TrueBrain>Base, and NewGRF and New Maps and Scripts :P
14:11<andythenorth>Bangers n Mash
14:11<andythenorth>probably can be reverse acronymed
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14:19<frosch123>Basesets and NewGRFs and NoScripts and Such?
14:20<andythenorth>Basesets and NewGRFs and NoScripts and Stuff and Such
14:20<andythenorth>one day someone will be smart enough to do an updated version :)
14:21<andythenorth>or brave, or bored, or dumb
14:21<andythenorth>any of the above
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14:21<andythenorth>I got as far as building out Pyramid on a coop test server
14:21<andythenorth>then I remembered I can't program :P
14:21<frosch123>someone must be bored enough to search for a dumb person doing it?
14:22<andythenorth>"can't we do it in Wordpress?"
14:22<andythenorth>^ stock joke for anyone who actually makes web apps :P
14:22<andythenorth>but seriously, could we do it in wordpress?
14:22<andythenorth>I couldn't
14:25<frosch123>i think you do stuff with facebook today?
14:26<andythenorth>probably via Wordpress though
14:27<andythenorth>would be nice to be able to match compatibility, i.e. latest newgrf compatible with your ottd
14:29*andythenorth assumes that doesn't work currently, but hasn't actually tested :P
14:29<andythenorth>if I set e.g. FIRS compatible to nightly rxxxxx, does it disappear for users of 1.1 or such?
14:30<andythenorth>thought so :P
14:30<frosch123>though it breaks on dependencies or so
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14:50<andythenorth>can we swap smoke sprites for real time particle effects?
14:51<@peter1138>just create a spec for it
14:53<andythenorth>Spec. item 1: use particle effects for smoke
14:53<andythenorth>Spec. item 2: ship
14:53<andythenorth>End of Spec
14:53<andythenorth>good enough?
14:53<@peter1138>not really
14:54<andythenorth>oh dear
14:54*andythenorth goes back to planning a truck set
14:54<frosch123>just like ror into ottd
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14:54<andythenorth>can we use real time particle effects to create trucks?
14:55<@peter1138>just create a spec for it
14:56<andythenorth>just swap 'smoke' for 'trucks' above
14:56<andythenorth>did flat docks work out?
14:58<@peter1138>haven't looked
14:59<@peter1138>if only we could mangle the station specs...
15:00<andythenorth>this is true
15:00<andythenorth>from what I've seen, station specs come pre-mangled
15:00<@peter1138>not really
15:08<andythenorth>how would I explain that a truck costs more to run if you use it for some cargos? (e.g. bulk)
15:09<andythenorth>or is that just a bad idea?
15:09<@Alberth>isn't that just non-zero refit costs?
15:10<frosch123>it that running cost only applies during load/unload, it should be fine
15:11<andythenorth>the intention is to have some lightly built trucks, which work well for piece goods cargos, but would not stand up to e.g. coal, wood etc
15:11<andythenorth>but I could do that in other ways, e.g. by limiting refits
15:12<frosch123>wouldn't you just reduce the capacity then? :p
15:13<frosch123>or do you want to add an overweight refit? "increase capacity by 50% in exchange for +50% running cost, +50% breakdown chance" ?
15:13<@Alberth>frosch123: money /breakdown is much more subtle than capacity
15:16<andythenorth>more like 'same capacity (t) but +50% run cost, +50% breakdown chance'
15:17<andythenorth>how to tell that in the GUI though?
15:17<andythenorth>and it might just be a bad idea anyway
15:18<frosch123>well, breakdown is not part of cb 36 anyway. and likely not worth the effort
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15:19<Timmaexx>Good evening Guys
15:19<@planetmaker>hi tim
15:20*andythenorth doesn't want to overcomplicate BANDIT
15:20<andythenorth>when I use trucks, my method is "what's fastest? Build 10 of those" :P
15:21<@planetmaker>capacity should be *some* factor ;-)
15:21<@planetmaker>10 of the gmund usually just don't cut it ;-)
15:21*andythenorth is thinking of eGRVTS
15:21<andythenorth>more capacity = more trucks
15:21<@planetmaker>yes, true
15:22<andythenorth>which delivers more, 10 big slow ones, or 15 small fast ones?
15:22<@planetmaker>but as said before: depends a bit which station I have.
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15:22<@planetmaker>question rather is: which pays better for the same cargo?
15:22<andythenorth>ho :)
15:22<andythenorth>sometimes I try and figure that out
15:22<andythenorth>other times less so
15:22<@planetmaker>I usually don't
15:23<@planetmaker>actually: never ;-)
15:24<andythenorth>I sometimes run multiple types on a route, then replace to whichever wins
15:24<andythenorth>like an A | B split test
15:24<TrueBrain>This transfer was NOT PROCESSED!
15:24<TrueBrain>For additional details, please check attached batch transaction report
15:25<TrueBrain>Thank You!
15:25<TrueBrain>Client service Team.
15:25<TrueBrain>:'( BUT WHY!!!!
15:28<andythenorth>it's funny how the report might be an executable file
15:28*andythenorth has had a lot of failed transactions today
15:28<andythenorth>also IRS tax refunds
15:28<andythenorth>and DHL deliveries
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15:35<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: feel like updating the cargo wiki to new (YACS) spec?
15:36*andythenorth is working on a set design and needs to decide on classes...
15:36<andythenorth>good chance to see if it works, or if we were all smoking crack
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16:09<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23348 /trunk/src/rail_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#4679]: make signal removal behaviour work the same regardless of autofill, i.e. always removal all signals instead those at the signal interval
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16:11<@Terkhen>nice :)
16:11<@Terkhen>that's one of the things that annoy me but not enough to make me think of the issue
16:11<@Rubidium>well, apparantly barely anyone cares
16:12<@planetmaker>I never _noticed_
16:12<@Rubidium>as I asked about it and nobody (except one) replied
16:12<@planetmaker>but what the commit message says is what I'd expect to happen
16:13<@Alberth>I keep the interval length always the same, and hardly remove signals, I also never found that issue
16:13<@Alberth>good night all
16:13<@planetmaker>I hardly ever change my signal distance of two ;-)
16:13<@Rubidium>night Alberth
16:13<@planetmaker>g'night Alberth
16:13<@planetmaker>thus it "just worked"
16:14<Zuu>not to mention that you need to make sure the rail is clear from trains before safely removing signals in one go :-)
16:14<@Rubidium>lies! ;)
16:14<@Alberth>Zuu: just live at the edge :p
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16:17<TrueBrain>planetmaker: a few days ago I had to change a 2 distance rail to a 4 distance (YAIM makes you want to do that)
16:18<TrueBrain>it was so fucking annoying :)
16:18<TrueBrain>CTRL did remove them all, dragging didn't .. argh .. :D
16:18<TrueBrain>so I am happy Rubidium fixed it before YAIM :P :P
16:18*andythenorth should try YAIM
16:19*Zuu just added YAIM to OTTDAU
16:19<Zuu>With the rate of new patches, I will soon have to think about if I should implement auto-adding of new targets :-)
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16:23<@planetmaker>hm, are signals that expensive, TrueBrain ?
16:24<TrueBrain>well, not _that_ expensive
16:24<TrueBrain>but expensive enough to notice when you do 2 vs 4
16:24<TrueBrain>(50% :P)
16:25<@planetmaker>maybe I should give yaim a shot one day. tbh I didn't yet playtest it
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16:43<@Terkhen>neither did I, I hope to have time again soon :)
16:43<@Terkhen>good night
16:45<andythenorth>I shall credit the buy menu spam in BANDIT to planetmaker :D
16:45<andythenorth>I may put notes in the buy menu text about it :)
16:51<@planetmaker>g'night Terkhen
16:51<@planetmaker>meh, andythenorth ;-)
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16:58*andythenorth bed
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17:21<Eddi|zuHause><__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: do you still need a disk? <-- currently it's nice and calm as it always has been...
17:23<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23349 /trunk/src/ai/ai_info.hpp: -Fix (r23210): one remaining unneeded GetClassName
17:23<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23350 /trunk/src/ (54 files in 3 dirs): -Add: support different ScriptTypes in the helper functions for GetClassName (Rubidium)
17:24<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23351 /trunk/src/ai/api/ (squirrel_export.awk -Add: generate the correct API type when creating Squirrel glue (Rubidium)
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17:24<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23352 /trunk/src/ (53 files in 3 dirs): -Add: support dynamically adding an API prefix when returning a C++ class to Squirrel
17:25<Xaroth>I see where this is going...
17:25<TrueBrain>nah, you dont
17:30<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23353 /trunk/src/ai/api/ai_townlist.hpp.sq: -Fix (r23350): somehow one file slipped through as unmodified
17:31<appe>what can i do to make this town grow?
17:31<appe>people wise, and not map size
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17:36<TrueBrain>have nothing in the stations
17:36<TrueBrain>have good rating
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17:38<@planetmaker>appe: build long road tunnels so that it can grow outside its currently fenced terrain
17:39<appe>oh, i see
17:44<appe>bah, my builds litteraly end up like the soviet union
17:44<appe>remains of construction everywhere, and absolutely nothing works.
17:45<appe>as three wise men said; ambitious, but rubbish.
17:49<Eddi|zuHause><Prof_Frink> Silence will fall. <-- did that actually happen yet?
17:54<Eddi|zuHause><peter1138> if only we could mangle the station specs... <-- use the newairport specs :)
17:56<Eddi|zuHause>no honestly, wasn't that the plan anyways? extend airport specs to cover docks and road stations
17:56<Eddi|zuHause>(and finalize the statemachine specs while at it)
17:57<Eddi|zuHause>(afair a major pitfall there was articulated vehicles)
17:58<Eddi|zuHause>(and after that make "traffic objects"... non-station objects with a state machine (locks, onramps, wide curves, doubletrack rails, ...)
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18:07<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23354 /trunk/ (263 files in 5 dirs): -Codechange: move all src/ai/api/ai_*.[hc]pp files to src/script/api/script_* (Rubidium)
18:08<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: before you finalize this stuff, do we really need different prefixes for AI and GS?
18:08<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: yes
18:09<TrueBrain>the more I work with this, the more sense it makes
18:09<TrueBrain>they are totally separate systems, which happen to share functionality
18:09<TrueBrain>but you should never confuse the two with eachother
18:11<Zuu>So by forcing GS writers to write their code from scratch or put some work into porting libraries, they will not do a GameScript AI?
18:11<Eddi|zuHause>i guess instad of Zuu's approach with the giant sed, it's probably better to make a "compatibility layer" for libraries
18:11<TrueBrain>I am waiting for the first person to make a full AI in GS .. that can never take long :D
18:12<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: so far I havent seen a global demand for a "compatibility layer" for libaries
18:12<Eddi|zuHause>so i have one file with lots of "LibMap <- AIMap" or "LibMap <- GSMap"
18:12<TrueBrain>but nothing is set in stone
18:12<@planetmaker>the 'evilAI': force player vehicles to transfer at an oil rig ;-)
18:12<TrueBrain>but it has been suggested that we should look at SuperLib, and integrate some of those things in the API
18:12<TrueBrain>as some are just odd not to have in the API
18:12<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: my potential "delaunay library" has only very few relations to the API
18:12<@planetmaker>good night
18:13<Eddi|zuHause>but in the places that it does, it would need to be duplicated for AI and GS, with no real reason
18:13<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: atm all I can say is: time will tell
18:13<TrueBrain>this is too new to say how it will be used ...
18:13<Eddi|zuHause>the general algorithm is exactly the same
18:13<TrueBrain>we have to go on something to finish this not next year ;) And atm this feels the best way as global approach
18:13<TrueBrain>and I do understand your worry and problem, with libraries in general
18:14<TrueBrain>but we will have to wait and see how often it happens, and how people adept to it
18:14<Eddi|zuHause>it doesn't matter that much for an AI/GS itself, only the libraries
18:14<TrueBrain>atm it doesn't seems GS will have library suppory, for example
18:14<Eddi|zuHause>that's really bad
18:14<TrueBrain>depends on your point of view
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18:14<TrueBrain>it is too easy to say: that is really bad :)
18:15<Zuu>As long as the GS use the same license as all the libraries, it can inline the libraries.
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18:15<Eddi|zuHause>well, then a GS has to include _all_ functionality, even it's only slightly extended on a previous script from a different author
18:15<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23355 /trunk/ (175 files in 7 dirs): -Codechange: rename all AI* to Script* (Rubidium)
18:15<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23356 /trunk/src/os/macosx/osx_stdafx.h: -Fix: some OSX versions have ScriptOrder defined
18:16<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: why limit modularity for no reason?
18:16<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: again a big assumption to assume there is no reason
18:16<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: whatever the reason... i can seriously see this blowing up in half a year
18:17<TrueBrain>it is for you so easy to jump to: it is not what I would do, so it is weird :)
18:17<TrueBrain>but like I said earlier: nothing is set in stone, and we just have to monitor how it goes
18:17<Zuu>If the GS will be stored in the savegame, there will need to be a system to also store the libraries. Another reason I can think of is that Squirrel libraries in OpenTTD is not really what they appear to be.
18:17<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: with inlining libraries, you _immediately_ get into copyright troubles.
18:18<TrueBrain>well, it won't be copyright troubles, at best license issues :P (hihi, I just had to)
18:18<Zuu>libraries is just a way to "require" some .nut files from another tar. The library end up in the same scope etc.
18:18<Eddi|zuHause>which is severely less so with just using a previously released library as a black box
18:18<TrueBrain>Zuu: it has a tiny bit more glue, but yeah, basically :)
18:18<Zuu>Still, SuperLib proves that it can be worked around.
18:19<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: and the license issues are not as big as you want us to believe atm
18:19<TrueBrain>you are free to include any library in your GS, supplying the right license files and information to it
18:19<Zuu>Although an issue could be that libraries don't specify API version and has to do with the API version that the library user specify. Although that is not really solved when libraries get inlined.
18:19<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: that is until a person like Luukland appears
18:20<TrueBrain>what about them?
18:21<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23357 /trunk/ (13 files in 5 dirs): -Codechange: move AIStorage to ScriptStorage
18:21<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23358 /trunk/ (12 files in 5 dirs): -Codechange: move AI_FatalError to Script_FatalError (and to its own file)
18:21<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23359 /trunk/ (10 files in 5 dirs): -Codechange: move AI_VMSuspend to Script_Suspend (and to its own file)
18:21<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23360 /trunk/ (22 files in 7 dirs): -Codechange: move AIInstance to ScriptInstance, making it reusable by other script API instances
18:21<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23361 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: move multiplayer DoCommand callback code so other script users can call their own
18:21<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23362 /trunk/src/ (14 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: refactor AIScanner, splitting it in AIScannerInfo and AIScannerLibrary
18:22<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23363 /trunk/src/script/ (script_info.hpp script_instance.hpp script_scanner.hpp): -Documentation: document a tiny bit better what is in variables
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18:26<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23364 /trunk/ (21 files in 8 dirs): -Codechange: refactor AIConfig, moving it mostly to Scriptconfig
18:26<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23365 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: move constants to a single place, to avoid duplication (and in time, different values)
18:26<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23366 /trunk/ (13 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: move most of the Dummy code to script/, unifying it
18:27<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23367 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: refactor GetSetting to ScriptInstance, to avoid global variable in script_controller
18:27<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23368 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: move FindLibrary down a few layers, so there is no layer violation anymore
18:27<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23369 /trunk/src/script/api/ (10 files): -Codechange: use script includes when possible, not ai includes
18:27<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23370 /trunk/src/ (52 files in 2 dirs): -Add: support @api tag in API header files, to select which API should receive the defined classes and functions
18:27<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23371 /trunk/src/ (8 files in 2 dirs): -Change: rename the DOXYGEN_AI_DOCS tag to DOXYGEN_API
18:28<TrueBrain>pff, -Move is not allowed
18:29<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23372 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Move: move squirrel export script to script/api/
18:29<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23373 /trunk/src/ (151 files in 5 dirs): -Add: move the AI API to script/api/ai, and move the Squirrel C++ glue templates to script/api/template
18:29<Eddi|zuHause>change the pre-commit-hook :p
18:29<TrueBrain>look what I did :P
18:31<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23374 /trunk/ (11 files in 4 dirs): -Add: Doxygen files for the NoAI API (Yexo)
18:32<TrueBrain>ah, there it goes
18:32<TrueBrain>that is all for today :)
18:32<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: but what do you mean? I seriously don't see how licensing can be any difference in either inclusion externally or internally
18:32<TrueBrain>(can there be a license difference?)
18:33<Eddi|zuHause>certainly there can be differences in license (with some limitations)
18:34<Zuu>From my point of view, an AI would not need to have a compatible license to use an AI library. A GS on the other hand would need to have GPL2 in order to use a library that states that it is GLP2.
18:34<TrueBrain>Zuu: for that we invented LGPL :)
18:34<TrueBrain>all libraries should be LGPL tbh
18:34<Eddi|zuHause>isn't LGPL "deprecated"?
18:34<Zuu>All libraries appear to be GPL2-v2 (except one) according to bananas.
18:35<TrueBrain>no clue; you cannot license a library under GPLv2 without going into a shitload of trouble (dll-like libraries I then talk about)
18:37<Eddi|zuHause>but LGPL is actually a good example. you can easily "link to" an LGPL license from a non-gpl program, but if you inline it into your program, you must re-release the whole program as (L)GPL
18:39<Zuu>Does usage of a squirrel script in OpenTTD cause it to become a compiled binary that with a code change could be distributed to MP clients? Then server owners wolud need to supply the source code of their scripts if they inline (L)GPL code :-D
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18:40<Zuu>Not that they would care even if it might be technically possible to get to a such point.
18:41<__ln__>GPL doesn't require releasing changes of something being used as server.
18:41<Zuu>Unless it is possible to conclude that the server distributes it in binary form.
18:42<Zuu>which I don't think is possible with GS in its current form.
18:42<TrueBrain>ugh, reading those things always make me realise how less I care about licenses :D Hihi :) (sorry, it always makes me sad, all those licenses .. why cant you just write what your intentions are, and people keep to that? Sad world :()
18:42<TrueBrain>Zuu: GS are _not_ distributed to clients
18:42<Zuu>So we can only hope that enough people will publish their GS scripts.
18:43<TrueBrain>like with AIs, yes
18:43<TrueBrain>with any modification to OpenTTD, yes
18:44<TrueBrain>like with Luukland, it is also not a bad thing
18:44<TrueBrain>sure, sharing is more fun and honest
18:44<TrueBrain>but it is also perfectly fine not to
18:44<TrueBrain>what ever makes you happy
18:44<TrueBrain>that is what a Free world is ;)
18:44<TrueBrain>your freedom to share .. or not :)
18:45<TrueBrain>and don't get me wrong, I love you more if you share .. but meh .. not sharing .. I can see reasons not to :)
18:45<TrueBrain>I wouldn't want to share my AWESOME towngrowth algorithm with full real life feedback, which makes you an awesome feeling when playing on my servers :)
18:45<TrueBrain>(just making words up as I go)
18:46*Hirundo feels readme.txt line 623 needs updating
18:46<TrueBrain>and because Luukland tends to take chatlogs out of context, to be clear: this is not in reference to luukland, just something I can see people doing. And I like it :)
18:46<TrueBrain>Hirundo: hehehe :D
18:46<TrueBrain>doing 1 project doesn't make you less retired :)
18:46<TrueBrain>(nor less retarded :P)
18:47<Eddi|zuHause>but possibly more tired
18:47<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23375 /trunk/ (readme.txt src/misc_gui.cpp): -Change: that name I haven't used for several years. Let it die out now finally, please?
18:48<Zuu>TrueLight? ;-)
18:48<TrueBrain>right, only 20 patches for NoGo :)
18:48<Zuu>Great job TrueBrain!
18:49<Eddi|zuHause>20 minutes to buffalo
18:49<TrueBrain>rather happy the squirrel framework could grow out to something this universal :)
18:49<Eddi|zuHause>(that probably means nothing to non-germans)
18:49<TrueBrain>nope, it does not
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18:50<Eddi|zuHause>it's a poem about a guy called "John Maynard" who steers a passenger boat across lake erie, and fire breaks out
18:51<Eddi|zuHause>in the poem he gets all people (except himself) to the shore
18:52<Eddi|zuHause>it's allegedly written after a real incident, but that kinda happened totally different
18:52<TrueBrain>to come back to prefixes, for me atm it feels better to have them separate, because it will make helping people out much much easier. In general you have to consider users stupid, and support is easier if things are not ambigious :)
18:52<Eddi|zuHause>you could consider the prefix only for classes which have different behaviour
18:53<TrueBrain>exactly, and that is what we have done :D
18:53<Eddi|zuHause>random question: are there default parameters or function overloading in squirrel?
18:54<TrueBrain>default params I believe so
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18:54<TrueBrain>overloading I think I was told it doesnt exist
18:54<TrueBrain>not sure .. I dont really write in Squirrel :D
18:54<TrueBrain>(sorry :P)
18:54<Zuu>Or perhaps provide also a general prefix "API" only available to libraries in case GS gains libraries?
18:54<Zuu>Thoguh, I guess that will not work due to the shared scope thing.
18:55<TrueBrain>and Eddi|zuHause, having a mixed prefix would confuse the fuck out of people :P So I very much rather have 1 prefix for 1 type :)
18:55<TrueBrain>simple and easy to follow for people
18:55<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: what's the difference in functionality between AIMap and GSMap then?
18:55<Zuu>overloading doesn't exist as far as I'm aware.
18:56<TrueBrain>regarding libraries ... I don't know. It is not an easy question or task
18:56<TrueBrain>if you want 1 library for both AI and GS, there is a shitload of problems
18:56<TrueBrain>(both in support, as code-wise)
18:56<TrueBrain>a general BuildStation does something different for AIs than for GSes
18:56<TrueBrain>to just name a silly one
18:57<TrueBrain>it won't be easy to write a 'general' library
18:57<TrueBrain>which makes support hard, and gives a lot of questions
18:57<Zuu>Inded, a common prefix will not solve all problems.
18:57<TrueBrain>to have a library for both AI and GS .. well .. that is not optimal too
18:57<Zuu>And I would probably only aim to port the fundamental parts of SuperLib to GS for now. Eg. Tile, Direction, Helpers.
18:58<Zuu>Not the high level parts that would in much higher degree run into differences.
18:58<TrueBrain>yeah, and we really should take a look at some of them; it was suggested some should be integrated in the API (I already said that I think? Hmm)
18:59<Zuu>You said that earlier tonight
18:59<TrueBrain>a library like Eddi|zuHause ... well .. if I se all (ahum) the libraries currently available on BaNaNaS, I think that would be one of the few (Except for the pathfinders?) that would be good to have for both scripting parts
18:59<TrueBrain>but I rarely see such libraries
18:59<TrueBrain>most people already integrate it in their AI
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18:59<TrueBrain>13 libraries on BaNaNaS
19:00<TrueBrain>6 of them I wrote at introduction
19:00<Zuu>And I probably wrote the one with most lines of code ;-)
19:00<TrueBrain>so one can even debate if libaries should be there (at all) :P
19:01<TrueBrain>of course they do, as the pathfinders for one are epic (hehe)
19:01<TrueBrain>and yeah Zuu, you are one of the few who really wants to share his work like that :)
19:01<TrueBrain>(which is awesome, for the record :))
19:02<Zuu>I think they have been useful, just that it could have been more libraries out there. I still wait for someone to make a Rail library :-)
19:02<TrueBrain>so as you can see Eddi|zuHause, it is not a simple question, and not a simple: it would be bad
19:02<TrueBrain>there is a lot going on around it all
19:03<TrueBrain>if including a library you like in your own code forces your code to GPLv2, I don't really see the downside (forcing GPL is always good :D)
19:03<TrueBrain>so every time I have this conversation (and believe me, it is not the first time :P), I come back to the: lets do this library-less first, and see what happens
19:04<TrueBrain>we can always introduce general libraries later
19:04<TrueBrain>but we can never remove it once introduced
19:04<Zuu>A good thing is probably that almost all libraries are GPLv2, so it should not be that hard from a licensing point of view to make a GS inline libraries.
19:04<Zuu>Yea, let time tell. Now time tells it's bed time :-)
19:05<TrueBrain>night Zuu :)
19:05<TrueBrain>btw, Zuu, have you seen my new additions to NoGo? :D
19:05<appe>a configurable setting for allowing wich kinf of industries you are allowed to finance in a game.
19:05<TrueBrain>so many kewl goodies are added :)
19:05<appe>yes plesae.
19:05<appe>in the game*, -kinf + kind
19:06<Zuu>TrueBrain: Yep, I have read on the forum. Just hadn't really time to think about coding at home.
19:06<__ln__>appe: have you made the kind of tron-style openttd music you were talking about?
19:07<TrueBrain>sleep well Zuu :)
19:07<Zuu>That said, I'm currently not really interested into investing lots of time into making a GS script as I don't really have any plan for what to make. But that doesn't stop me from being interested in general in the GS work.
19:08<TrueBrain>you can now make tutorials ... I have to find someone to make a concept for that :P
19:09<Zuu>Yea, I actually though about what TutoralAI would be renamed to when it becomes a GS. hehe
19:09<Zuu>But I shall now sleep. Good night
19:14<appe>__ln__: i tried. i failed. i tried again, and i failed.
19:15<appe>im not giving up, though :)
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20:22<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23376 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 4 dirs): -Remove: on popular demand, remove my (revoked) name from comments in the code. It was silly to name me like that to begin with ;) (based on patch by HackaLittleBit)
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---Logclosed Wed Nov 30 00:00:58 2011