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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-12-01

---Logopened Thu Dec 01 00:01:00 2011
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04:23<z-MaTRiX>abs (int i)
04:24<z-MaTRiX>{ return i < 0 ? -i : i;}
04:24<b_jonas>z-MaTRiX: who cares? most of the time, you'll be actually using the gcc builtin instead of that implementation.
04:24<z-MaTRiX>well mentioned because it even lacks ()
04:25<b_jonas>why'd it need parens?
04:25<z-MaTRiX>guys here were competing for shortest C-code
04:25<z-MaTRiX>so its -4 bytes then
04:25<z-MaTRiX>if possible
04:26<z-MaTRiX>well i never tried it without () for example
04:26<z-MaTRiX>bad analogy
04:27<z-MaTRiX>in bash you have [[ as a command
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05:04<Bowwwweee> <-- visit this site! <-- and the forum
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05:04<appe>what is that?
05:05-!-mode/#openttd [+b *!Bowwweee*@*.*] by planetmaker
05:05<Noldo>it is spam
05:08-!-mode/#openttd [+b *!*@*] by planetmaker
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05:26<z-MaTRiX>.it, i'm not surprised ;>
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05:34<@planetmaker>hm, still no new QC. He's slacking ;-)
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06:05<dihedral>if it were a .gr i'd at least support the try in making money :-P
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06:57<CIA-6>OpenTTD: yexo * r23382 /trunk/src/window.cpp: -Fix [FS#4845] (r23336): NewGRF window and content download window were always hidden under the saveload window
07:03<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23383 /trunk/src/3rdparty/squirrel/ (17 files in 5 dirs): -Update: bring Squirrel to 2.2.5; besides some nice bug fixes, it mostly solves the sort() issues
07:03<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23384 /trunk/ (23 files in 7 dirs): -Remove: no longer allow a binary to be without AI support; the parts some compilers failed at, are integrated in other parts of the code now too
07:04<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23385 /trunk/src/lang/ (50 files in 2 dirs): -Fix: remove now unused strings from all other languages too
07:04<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23386 /trunk/ (15 files in 6 dirs): -Fix: debug script related events to 'script' (removes 'ai')
07:04<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23387 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 4 dirs): -Fix: move ai.script_max_opcode_till_suspend to script.script_max_opcode_till_suspend
07:04<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23388 /trunk/src/lang/ (49 files in 2 dirs): -Fix: remove now unused strings from all other languages too
07:08<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: r23386 is most likely of some importance to you, as you were asking for it the other day ;)
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10:14<CIA-6>OpenTTD: glx * r23389 /trunk/projects/ (4 files): -Fix (r11777, r12077, r12078): wrong include in strgen project
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10:21<Eddi|zuHause> <-- "Don't hang this picture at a Döner shop" :p
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11:45<Joostlek>sorry i'm from the netherlands
11:45<Joostlek>so i forget it
11:45<Joostlek>but are there cheats for android
11:45<Joostlek>for openttd
11:46<@blathijs>Joostlek: Hehe, The funny thing is that you, me and Rubidium are also Dutchies ;-)
11:47<Joostlek>oke nederlands praten
11:47<@blathijs>Joostlek: It's CTRL+ALT+C normally, not sure how that would work on Android though
11:47<@blathijs>Joostlek: We prefer English, since there's a hundred more non-Dutchies in here as well :-)_
11:47<@Rubidium>depends on whether those who ported OpenTTD to the android have cared to find some way to enter the normal hotkey for the cheat window
11:47<Joostlek>i go to eat
11:48<Joostlek>we have kipfilet a la romana
11:48<Joostlek>(idon't know how to say in english
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11:48<Joostlek>from bertoli
11:48<@blathijs>Rubidium: I don't suppose the Android porter is one from the official OpenTTD team, right?
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11:49<@Rubidium>blathijs: I have no clue who did it, and I even think it being on the android market violates the android market's requirements
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12:33<Joostlek>it's from pleya
12:34<Joostlek>and kipfilet a la romana was dilicious
12:34<Joostlek>i eat the bord off my brother and my sister and my father
12:37<TrueBrain>plate, is the word ;)
12:42*Rubidium goes for a French named dish, just to annoy Belugas ;)
12:43<@Rubidium>(and for some telly)
12:43<@Rubidium>d'oh ;)
12:43<Joostlek>was belugas
12:44<Joostlek>whos playing minecraft
12:44<Joostlek>and have hamacho77
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12:45<Joostlek>who have hamachi and minecraft
12:47<@planetmaker>you should ask in a minecraft channel
12:47<@planetmaker>both is totally off-topic here
12:47<Joostlek>but there isn't anybody at that channel
12:48<@planetmaker>I couldn't care less
12:49<Joostlek>but do you have minecraft + hamachi
12:50<@planetmaker>no. And please ask in forums or channels where that is on-topic
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13:07<Eddi|zuHause>so... this atlantean campaign is definitely crazy :p
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13:32<@Alberth>hi Wolf01
13:33<Wolf01>today I indroduced another job mate to OTTD :P
13:34<@Alberth>oh, you gave him something to do during the xmas holidays :p
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13:44<@planetmaker>hi Terkhen
13:45<Wolf01>hello Terkhen
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: translators * r23390 /trunk/src/lang/ (6 files): (log message trimmed)
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: belarusian - 2 changes by Wowanxm
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: dutch - 2 changes by habell
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: english_US - 2 changes by Rubidium
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: finnish - 2 changes by jpx_
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: french - 2 changes by glx
13:46<@Terkhen>meh, I missed translations for just a few minutes
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14:11<@Terkhen>hi andythenorth
14:11<andythenorth>hi Terkhen how is the job?
14:11*andythenorth had a job once
14:12<@Terkhen>right now we are taking a course, so I still don't know how is the job :P
14:13<andythenorth>how is the Madrid?
14:13<__ln__>not just a Madrid, but the?
14:13<@Terkhen>big :P
14:14<@Terkhen>I had no time to see much yet, last weekend I went back home to pick up more stuff
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14:22<Wolf01>hi frosch123
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14:25<@Rubidium>frosch123: any remarks regarding an idea to change action 13 in grfv8 to name the language it overrides, so it can override to multiple languages?
14:27<frosch123>makes sense
14:28<frosch123>hmm, i also wondered about turning town effects into a translated cargo
14:28<frosch123>so, new effects can be added :p
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14:28<@planetmaker>makes also sense
14:31<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: and we have a similar discussion 3 years from now like about cargo classes? :p
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14:31<@Terkhen>I'm coding subsidy stuff now, should I wait? right now TE are still used to store stats of delivered cargo
14:32<@Rubidium> (untested and such ;))
14:32<andythenorth>TE cargos
14:32<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: everyone said it is not a matter of the implementation
14:33<frosch123>the new schema is the same as the old, just with more clear descriptions
14:33<andythenorth>industry (cargo) newgrfs should *not* be specifying town effect
14:33<andythenorth>I know they kind of have to for hysterical raisins, but it's dumb
14:33<andythenorth>it's improper domain
14:33<andythenorth>town effect is the domain of the town
14:33<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: yes, but it took very long to get there. and the "we can't remove 'hazardus' issue" doesn't goaway
14:34<frosch123>Rubidium: looks fine
14:34<frosch123>including positioning the code between grfid and numstr
14:35<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: does it matter?
14:35<frosch123>when all 16 cc are defined, we add a cc translation table
14:35<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: it does in the sense of "we only have two classes free now"
14:36<frosch123>when all var 40-5e slots are used, we add a variable translation table
14:40<andythenorth>I want to deprecate town effect property for cargos
14:40<andythenorth>I know you won't allow it, but the property is nonsense
14:41<andythenorth>it's the Wrong Way To Do It
14:41<frosch123>it's the way to communicate between newgrfs and gs
14:42<frosch123>it's the job of gs guys to define new ones; newgrfs only have to provide them
14:42<frosch123>so, nothing of your concern :p
14:42<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23391 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Feature: [NewGRF] Allow translating multiple languages with Action 13 in GRFv8
14:44<frosch123>though maybe some cargos would require to supply multiple town effects at once
14:44<andythenorth>possibly I misunderstand
14:45<andythenorth>but how am I (any cargo author, not just my personal idiocy), supposed to set town effects, in order to be correct?
14:45<frosch123>andythenorth: grf authors define cargo classes for refit-communication between cargo-defining grfs and vehicle grfs. we need town effects to communicate usages of cargos between cargo-defining grfs and gamescripts
14:46<frosch123>town effects are not "grow" or "shrink"
14:46<andythenorth>so the problem is, which cargos should get town effect? Some? All? None?
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14:46<andythenorth>There's no correct answer
14:46<frosch123>they are services: "food supply", "water supply", "power supply", "waste disposal supply"
14:47<andythenorth>those aren't the concern of the cargo grf though
14:47<andythenorth>for the cargo set author, it's a no win situation
14:47<andythenorth>might as well set town effect for every cargo, which means the property is redundany
14:47<andythenorth>redundany? redundant
14:48<frosch123>wrt. the latter two: we discussed the concept of "virtual cargos", which are produced by industries, but are not transportable with vehicles; they are transported directly to the nearest town
14:48<andythenorth>should I read some logs before speaking more?
14:48<frosch123>so, a powerplant would produce a virtual cargo "electricity" which has town effect "power"
14:49<frosch123>"iron ore" otoh. has no town effect at all
14:49<frosch123>at least none yet defined
14:49<andythenorth>- at least none yet defined
14:49<@planetmaker>'dirt cover' ;-)
14:49<frosch123>so, if you say you want to set a town effect to every cargo; you make no sense at all
14:49<andythenorth>I'm being asked to predict the future
14:49<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: move "town effect" to industries/houses?
14:50<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: an industry/house would issue a "town effect" upon receiving the cargo
14:50<andythenorth>town effect is the domain of towns, or houses
14:50<Eddi|zuHause>so coal delivered to power station or house would yield "town effect: power", but coal delivered to steel mills wouldn't.
14:50<frosch123>houses implicitly convert any cargo they accept into a town effect
14:51<andythenorth>this sounds like a shortcut to how I thought town control would work: deliver cargo to an industry, industry sets a register value, town reads that, decides what to do
14:51<Eddi|zuHause>PS: did we ever get anywhere with distributing delivered cargos over all accepting locations, not only the nearest one?
14:51<frosch123>wrt. industries i meant my statement earlier vers similar to eddi's
14:52<frosch123>the industry would even display how much effect it produces
14:52<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: not further than talking, I think :)
14:53<Eddi|zuHause>well, YACD might do something like that
14:54<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: yacd does solve that, but probably by knowing the destination tile..?
14:59<Eddi|zuHause>well, it would be nice to have that behaviour even when destinations are not used
14:59<andythenorth>it was ruled out by Rubidium
14:59<andythenorth>there's at least one forum thread about it
15:00<Eddi|zuHause>and who put him in charge? ;p
15:01<andythenorth>nobody else wants the job? :P
15:02<andythenorth>so 'virtual cargos' ?
15:03<Eddi|zuHause>would those go into the "special" cargo class? would they count against the 32 cargo limit?
15:03<__ln__>would it be correct to assume that one can buy a RE+U-Bahn(Berlin) ticket from a DB vending machine?
15:03<Elukka>is yacd still something that might be expected to get further development?
15:04<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: i'd say yes, but never tried. last time i used the U-Bahn-Berlin we bought tickets from a local vending machine in the U-Bahn station.
15:05<__ln__>at least DB online search finds such routes, so that kind of hints they maybe sell such too.
15:06<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: berlin was divided into 3 circular zones there, you could buy A (center), A+B and A+B+C tickets valid for all modes of transportation
15:06<Eddi|zuHause>where "center" is everything within the "S-Bahn-Ring"
15:07<__ln__>and i think their tageskarte covers all possible zones where a tourist would want to go
15:07<andythenorth>'virtual cargos' would fail if they're in the 32 cargo limit
15:07<andythenorth>what's the idea of them?
15:08<Eddi|zuHause>most touristic locations would be in the "A" zone, yes
15:08<__ln__>but i think the tageskarte was more than A
15:08<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: the interesting part would be whether the db search will give you a ticket price
15:09<andythenorth>are virtual cargos approximately the same as agreeing to use certain town registers by convention?
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15:09<@Alberth>andythenorth: so an industry that is a sink in terms of cargoes can produce something eg for a town
15:09<__ln__>it won't, but it won't give a price for the RE alone either.
15:09<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: iirc we bought an A+B "Gruppentageskarte"
15:09<@Alberth>and afaik it can exist above the 32 cargo limit
15:10<andythenorth>so my idea was that a power station would put 'electricity produced' onto a register, which was publicly known
15:10<andythenorth>and maybe all grfs might behave the same by convention
15:10<andythenorth>faint hope :P
15:10<@Alberth>aka hopeless :D
15:10<Eddi|zuHause>that was apparently cheaper than 6 single tickets (3 persons, two ways)
15:10<andythenorth>virtual cargos come to the same idea
15:11<andythenorth>instead of register index, it's a cargo id, or ctt index
15:11<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you're distracting us with your on-topic talk :p
15:11<andythenorth>vehicles in vehicles
15:12<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: seems that even the cheaper tageskarte is AB
15:14<__ln__>which comfortably also covers Tegel, but apparently not Schönefeld.
15:15<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: YACD's last state was that it has performance issues that can only be solved with major philosophy changes (like threading)
15:16<Elukka>yeah, i remember that
15:16<Elukka>kinda made it sound like it's dead :/
15:16<andythenorth>it works
15:16<andythenorth>just eats battery
15:16<Elukka>doesn't work very well at least for cargo
15:16<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: the problem with Tegel is that the U-Bahn connection never was built, so it's not connected to anything
15:16<Elukka>and, well, since the switch to turn it off for cargo apparently doesn't work...
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15:17<Eddi|zuHause>schönefeld is pretty far outside, so that would likely be C
15:19<Elukka>what yacd does is pretty much my #1 feature request for openttd so it's a real bummer if it can't be finished
15:19<Eddi|zuHause>CargoDist applied some threading, but that is kinda completely different approach, so not sure if anything can be "rescued" from there
15:20<__ln__>yes, C. the up-to-date map already has greyed-out continuing from Schönefeld to Flughafen Berlin-Brandenburg.
15:20<Eddi|zuHause>YACD gives each packet a destination, while CargoDist is more of a probabilistic algorithm
15:21<andythenorth>yacd is just a waiting game
15:21<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: isn't that still like 5-20 years away from being opened?
15:21<andythenorth>bigger cpus...
15:21<andythenorth>offload yacd to the graphics card :P
15:21<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: umm, i think it will be opened in June 2012, and Tegel closed at the same time.
15:21<__ln__>dunno about the U-bahn line though
15:22<Eddi|zuHause>Schönefeld should be accessible by S-Bahn
15:23<@planetmaker>last time I was there, it had a s-bahn connection
15:23<@planetmaker>but no operating airport ;-)
15:24*__ln__ flies with Scandinavian Airlines, which operates at Tegel
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15:39<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: usually more axles allows more cargo (with same weight per axle
15:40<andythenorth>but more driven axles makes no difference to total cargo
15:40<andythenorth>except in poor traction conditions :P
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15:41<Eddi|zuHause>it's the same problem that snail had with his rack rail
15:41<Eddi|zuHause>it makes almost no difference
15:42<andythenorth>it would be relevant with roadtypes
15:42<andythenorth>but not otherwise
15:42<andythenorth>same reason I've left a number of vehicles out of HEQS
15:42<andythenorth>no gain :P
15:43<andythenorth>we should lower co-efficient of friction above snowline in arctic
15:43<Eddi|zuHause>be glad: you have an excellent way to reduce the length of the purchase list :)
15:43<andythenorth>and when the tile is desert :P
15:43<nicfer>anyone knows a grf that merges or deletes monorail and maglev?
15:44<Eddi|zuHause>nicfer: practically all grfs do that
15:45<nicfer>and most of them are too clogged with similar trains
15:45*andythenorth ponders
15:45<Eddi|zuHause>don't use the 2cc set then :p
15:45<andythenorth>got an idea
15:46<andythenorth>new property that merges 2 vehicles into one buy menu entry
15:46<andythenorth>with new buy buttons
15:46<andythenorth>'build articulated'
15:46<andythenorth>'build non-articulated'
15:46<nicfer>for rvs?
15:47<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: needs a rethink of the buy menu (like select cargo, etc.)
15:48<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: but that might also simplify the trams, if you could read that value during the articulated callback
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15:48<andythenorth>most trucks should have the option for trailers
15:49<andythenorth>duplicating every truck for the buy menu is an unpleasant route
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15:49<nicfer>you mean being able to build them like trains?
15:49<andythenorth>I mean a new method
15:49<andythenorth>extra buttons in the buy menu
15:50<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: it already gets complicated if you factor in autoreplace gui
15:50<Zuu>Does GameScripts have a short name domain of its own or must GS short names not conflict with AI short names?
15:51<andythenorth>hmm, autoreplace could have two buttons as well
15:52<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: but what if you want to keep the trailer for the replacement only if the original has a trailer?
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15:52<nicfer>I've got an idea for the online content window
15:53<Eddi|zuHause>if you had a selection similar to the one in the buy menu, you could only replace all with trailer or all without, not mixed
15:53<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: logic on auto-replace?
15:53<andythenorth>write scripts, if/else
15:53<nicfer>newgrfs should be differentiated between 'trainsets', 'aircraft sets', etc., so it's easier to search them
15:54<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: well, autoreplace could also "guess" the target, like it currently does with cargo subtypes
15:54<Eddi|zuHause>nicfer: you have tags for that
15:54<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: actually autoreplace kind of...doesn't
15:54<andythenorth>at least in my tests :)
15:55<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: well you're not doing it right :)
15:55<andythenorth>HEQS with new, common subtypes still fails for auto-replace
15:55<Eddi|zuHause>make a bug report?
15:55<andythenorth>I should indeed
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15:56<andythenorth>also - wrt cargos - we could 'remove' hazardous for YACS
15:56-!-Brianetta [] has joined #openttd
15:56<andythenorth>i.e. YACS is a spec that grfs conform to or don't
15:56<andythenorth>as the game spec is somewhat unopinionated about cargos
15:58<andythenorth>ECS has a bit defined for hazardous, but treat YACS as subset of ECS
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16:02<@Terkhen> good night
16:02<@Alberth>good night
16:05<@planetmaker>g'night you two
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16:17*Rubidium wonders what he ruled out ;)
16:17<andythenorth>round-robin distribution of cargo to accepting industries
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16:47<Eddi|zuHause>random topic: maybe nml could ignore the values of colour indices 0xD7..0xE2 when determining whether it's the dos palette? that way, artists could set them to other colours for easier drawing
16:49<Eddi|zuHause>(or we add some ImageMagick or GIMP script that replaces those colours in the Makefile)
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16:51<Hirundo>Eddi|zuHause: What's wrong with using shades of gray for that purpose?
16:52<Eddi|zuHause>Hirundo: we need a way to separate colours that should be kept "as is" from colours that should be recoloured.
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>Hirundo: in a way that is generic enough for all vehicles
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>indices 0xD7..0xE2 are "magic pink"
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>i.e. never used in real sprites
16:54<Hirundo>Is there no colour range so ugly that you'll never use it anyway?
16:54<Eddi|zuHause>GermanRV uses "normal pink", the Dutch set proposes to use the fire cycle
16:56<@Yexo><Eddi|zuHause> random topic: maybe nml could ignore the values of colour indices 0xD7..0xE2 when determining whether it's the dos palette? that way, artists could set them to other colours for easier drawing <- sounds like a good suggestion
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17:13<andythenorth>why can't artists just man up and draw the damn cargos? :P
17:16<andythenorth>good night :)
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17:16<Eddi|zuHause>it goes against a fundamental design principle behind CETS: never duplicate work that you can handle by scripting :p
17:17<Eddi|zuHause>i hate blitzquitters!! :p
17:23<CIA-6>OpenTTD: yexo * r23392 /trunk/src/script/api/script_list.cpp: -Fix: [NoAI] assigning 'null' to an AIList element to remove it didn't work
17:25<frosch123>that missed "wired"
17:25<@Rubidium>and whit! ;)
17:25<frosch123>good point
17:29<Eddi|zuHause>i'm sure there's another dozen words that are also commonly misspelled
17:30<Eddi|zuHause>like s/toe/to/ at the end of a word
17:31<@Rubidium>to and too ;)
17:31<@Rubidium>(and two)
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17:36<Eddi|zuHause>"'russian' hacker of US waterworks was no hacker at all, but an engineer who logged in while on vacation"
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17:49<+glx>Eddi|zuHause: lol
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18:03<__ln__>if i need to find a linear mapping matrix on the usual/natural bases for T(x,y,z)=T(x-z,y), is that as simple as calculating T(1,0,0) etc. and placing the results in a matrix?
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20:21<nicfer>I remember that there was a patch which added an option to set a minimum distance between towns
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20:26<nicfer>is it still active?
20:36<Eddi|zuHause>not that i know of... but should be a rather simple patch, so likely easy to update
20:56<nicfer>when I create a map, towns are often clogged up while there's a lot of open space
21:19<Eddi|zuHause>that's the difference between actual randomness and perceived randomness :)
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21:51<Lachie>quick question to anyone who's up, does nforenum actually support Action14?
21:54<Lachie>had issues with it a few weeks ago. Thought it was sorted, but all of a sudden it's throwing up a Fatal Error for "Invalid action byte"
21:59<Lachie>(I haven't actually changed anything about the sprite since it worked last)
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22:01<@planetmaker>old version or look at heqs or fish for examples
22:06<Lachie>hmmm. I must be screwing something up royally. Actually just copy pasted the HEQS Action14 in to make sure there weren't any mistakes (they're identical) and the same error's coming up
22:07<Eddi|zuHause>then it must be your version
22:08<Lachie>of nforenum? downloaded straight from .org
22:09<Eddi|zuHause>so what version does it say it is?
22:09<Eddi|zuHause>maybe you have an older version in your path
22:17<Lachie>hmm, will do a little extra investigating and see what I can work out
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22:29<Lachie>I had this conversation a couple of months ago with the devs, but honestly it probably would be quicker and easier to make this set clean and usable by completely rewriting it in NML.
22:31<Lachie>I suppose it was always going to happen, given most of the NFO in the source is from when the set was coded in GRFMaker.
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---Logclosed Fri Dec 02 00:00:16 2011