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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-12-02

---Logopened Fri Dec 02 00:00:16 2011
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01:12<z-MaTRiX>hey
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02:58<Celestar>\o
02:58<@Alberth>o/
03:12<@peter1138>\o/
03:22<@planetmaker>moin
03:23<@planetmaker>I broke the pattern ;-)
03:24<Lachie>fuuu
03:25<@planetmaker>I got improved locks, matching the season: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=982711#p982711
03:27<@Alberth>pretty
03:31<@Alberth>arctic is so much nicer ;)
03:33<@peter1138>nice
03:33<@peter1138>can we have proper functioning locks? lol
03:37<@planetmaker>he :-)
03:39-!-DayDreamer [~DayDreame@ip-86-49-59-25.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd
03:40<appe>planetmaker: neat!
03:40<appe>"685DM"?
03:49<@Alberth>do you have any idea how much a lock costs, so high in the mountains?
03:50<@Alberth>and all that just to transport snow
03:51<@peter1138>:)
03:54<@planetmaker>appe, it's my individual localization with a conversion factor of 1:1 to the pound in years < euro introduction year;-)
03:57<@planetmaker>btw, appe, how's your sound or music project going?
04:03<appe>its so-so. im working way to much to have time with it. though, i have made some basic tunes for the tron track
04:04<appe>it's not that easy making the ottd main theme 'dark and synthetic'
04:04<appe>-it's + its
04:06-!-JVassie [~James@2.27.87.71] has joined #openttd
04:09<@Alberth>"it's" means "it is", so it was correct :)
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04:10<z-MaTRiX>hi
04:11<z-MaTRiX>so what do you think ? http://matrix.z-labor.com/tmp/C/timertest.c
04:11<z-MaTRiX>( this uses HRT )
04:11<appe>Alberth: i see, thank you.
04:12<z-MaTRiX>Timer resolution: 1 ns
04:12<z-MaTRiX>usleep(+0.1s) took: 0.1000783600 seconds
04:12<z-MaTRiX>relative nanosleep(+0.1sec) took: 0.1000814360 seconds
04:12<z-MaTRiX>absolute nanosleep(+0.1sec) took: 0.1000629980 seconds
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04:17<@Alberth>more like you get time in nano seconds, I think
04:19<Eddi|zuHause><peter1138> can we have proper functioning locks? lol <-- when we have objects with a state machine :p
04:19<Celestar>erm
04:19<Celestar>airports have state machines :D
04:20<Celestar>we could use the airport state machine for locks/docks?
04:20<Eddi|zuHause>yes.
04:21<Eddi|zuHause>that's the plan
04:21<Eddi|zuHause>which is like unchanged for the last 4 years :p
04:22<@planetmaker>NewGRF-state machines!
04:22<Eddi|zuHause>nobody had the guts to finalize the spec on those
04:23<Eddi|zuHause>and nobody has a clue to adapt them for articulated vehicles (for road stations)
04:24<@Alberth>ships should be much easier :p
04:26<@planetmaker>well. If there's NewGRF state machines for planes, then generalizing that to other vehicle types should be relatively easy.
04:26<@planetmaker>In comparison to devising sane specs in the first place
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04:45<dihedral>greetings
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04:55<dihedral>TrueBrain, what kind of interaction with the admin network were you thinking of / can you think of
04:55<@planetmaker>we can think of all :-)
04:56<@planetmaker>but at least it needs things like 'game finished' or possibly 'goal finished % by company' or similar
04:57<dihedral>"all" sounds like making too much of the api transparent to the admin network
04:58<dihedral>what about something along the lines of an interaction between the current script and the admin network?
04:58<Eddi|zuHause>that is already implemented
04:58<dihedral>it is?
04:58<Eddi|zuHause>you can pass JSON objects back and forth
04:58<dihedral>i did not read about that
04:58<dihedral>yikes
04:58<dihedral>\o/
04:58<dihedral>whoopies
05:00<dihedral>ah - found it ^^
05:04<dihedral>very nice indeed
05:10<TrueBrain>planetmaker: from my point of view, it is more meant for: this player won this time, give him some cookies on the ladder system ;)
05:10<TrueBrain>and yeah, dihedral, I was about to say: it is no longer thinking, it is a finished product
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05:12<@planetmaker>TrueBrain, yes, that'll be a very nice thing
05:12<@planetmaker>Can I just add, TrueBrain, that I think it'll be nice to have GS libs, too?
05:12<TrueBrain>I still wonder if it matter (at all), one way or the other
05:14<TrueBrain>codewise it is a matter of a few statements btw, I left everything in place to support libs
05:14<Eddi|zuHause>having libs makes it (imho) easier from a coder's point of view
05:14<TrueBrain>after the language stuff, I guess we will have to talk it over (once more, lolz)
05:14<Eddi|zuHause>especially wrt keeping the modular parts up to date
05:14<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: the same 'argument' was used for NoAI, and see how many libs are there :P
05:14<z-MaTRiX>hi guys
05:15<z-MaTRiX>printf("(%f,%f)\n",x0+f*i+(f^1)*j,y0+f*j+(f^1)*i); or (f)?printf("(%d,%f)\n",x0+i,y0+j):printf("(%f,%d)\n",x0+j,y0+i); ?
05:15<TrueBrain>if the past is any representation of the present, it sounds good to have, but in reality is never used
05:15<TrueBrain>@kban z-MaTRiX 60 I asked you a few times already to stop with the random strings of nonsense
05:15-!-mode/#openttd [+b *!~matrix@nude.lesbianbath.com] by DorpsGek
05:15-!-z-MaTRiX was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [I asked you a few times already to stop with the random strings of nonsense]
05:16-!-mode/#openttd [-b *!~matrix@nude.lesbianbath.com] by DorpsGek
05:16<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: but like said, your lib is most likely the first I have seen that would be really worth it to be called a lib (next to the few we made with the introduction of NoAI
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05:17<dihedral><TrueBrain> and yeah, dihedral, I was about to say: it is no longer thinking, it is a finished product <- and nicely done indeed :-)
05:17<TrueBrain>tnx
05:19<Lachie>strings, yay.
05:19<dihedral>beautiful musical instruments
05:20<Eddi|zuHause>if you're into that kind of thing :p
05:21<Celestar>what was the status of newGRF airport state machines?
05:23<Eddi|zuHause>something about pikka suggesting a spec, yexo(?) implementing it, but neither being really content with it
05:24<Eddi|zuHause>statemachines are the only part of newgrf-airports that's not in trunk yet
05:24<Celestar>I did something with RichK abtou 3 years ago :P
05:24<Celestar>including some new airports with crossing runways :D
05:24<Eddi|zuHause>richk kinda... left... :p
05:24<Celestar>yah
05:25<V453000>hmm why do all newGRFs in r23321 automatically get added in the wrong palette? :S
05:25<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: because you haven't set the default palette
05:25<V453000>oh
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05:26<dihedral><Celestar> I did something with RichK abtou 3 years ago :P <- spare us the details
05:26<Celestar>rofl
05:26<Eddi|zuHause>"one time, in college" :p
05:26<dihedral>that's probably what he said, too :-P
05:32<Celestar>oh man BBT is soo great
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05:34<V453000>does anyone remember any metro/narrow gauge track set which uses railtypes?
05:34<dihedral>\o/ Belugas :-)
05:35<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: yes. oberhümer and snail currently have narrow gauge rail sets under development
05:36<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: and the metro track set should even be on bananas
05:36<Lachie>alrighty, is there some fancy awesome way to use a makefile with NML so I can split the .nml files up for ease of development or do I have to do it the old fashioned and dirty way?
05:36<V453000>there are 3 or 4 of them on bananas
05:36<Eddi|zuHause>Lachie: checked out the devzone's makefile?
05:37<Lachie>will take a looksie
05:38<Eddi|zuHause>Lachie: planetmaker will probably be able to help you out there
05:40<appe>i dreamt of being a planet maker when i was a kid
05:40<appe>after listening to some douglas adams audio books
05:40<@planetmaker>Lachie, I prepared a build framework which uses gcc in order to allow you to use several nml files as common source to one NewGRF
05:40<appe>guess wish one.
05:40<appe>..
05:42<@planetmaker>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/newgrf-makefile and read-to-go downloads of it are found at http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/newgrf_makefile/nightlies/LATEST/
05:42<V453000>planetmaker: is there a new release of swedish rails coming which works with the tunnels? :)
05:42<@planetmaker>it's on bananas
05:43<@planetmaker>^ @ V453000
05:43<V453000>ooh I see
05:44<V453000>I have tunnels as "normal" but it does overwrite them with new swedish rail tunnels
05:44<V453000>I use alpine landscape there
05:44<V453000>might be unexpected behaviour?
05:45<V453000>^ pm
05:46<V453000>if I load alpine climate after swedish rails, it works and the rails are kept, but it is weird
05:50<@planetmaker>that's expected and intended
05:50<@planetmaker>I can't use the default ones as they don't match
05:51<@planetmaker>doesn't it give a warning about that?
05:51<@planetmaker>(check newgrf config window)
05:51<@planetmaker>it's just a little text on top of the description when active, not a red error box)
05:52<V453000>only says the "you should NOT configure it in MP"
05:52<V453000>isnt it supposed to just not use the swedish rail tunnels when that parameter is unchanged?
05:52<@planetmaker>Not the parameter description.
05:52<Lachie>excellent, now checking that out.
05:52<@planetmaker>The main NewGRF window
05:53<V453000>ah, no eorror or such info there
05:53<@planetmaker>where you see the desc of the (active) newgrf
05:53<V453000>all fine
05:53<@planetmaker>and you use 0.7.2?
05:53<V453000>yes
05:55<@planetmaker>and you use which alpine climate?
05:56<V453000>the old one from michael blunkc
05:56<V453000>ck
05:56<@planetmaker>and you're sure that the tunnels you see are not from mb?
05:56<V453000>http://dl.dropbox.com/u/20419525/tunnel.png
05:56<@planetmaker>because it either should issues a warning (must load after alpine) or use its own tunnels
05:57<@planetmaker>thus "warning" or "my own" is the only option for tunnels with that newgrf
05:57<@planetmaker>hm... though. No, default should work
05:57<V453000>uhm but what does the parameter actually do then? When "normal" overwrites tunnels
05:58<V453000>it doesnt overwrite them in "normal" climates so why should it in alpine
05:58<@planetmaker>it shouldn't either, if you left the tunnel param to 'default'
05:58<V453000>I did
05:58<@planetmaker>I mis-read my own code ;-)
05:58<V453000>it is visible in the screenshot :)
06:00<@planetmaker>well, then it doesn't work
06:00<@planetmaker>and is a bug
06:00<V453000>arr
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06:01<V453000>by the way, I might have a suggestion, why not allow swedish rails to replace also monorail/maglev? Would get really super useful when one needs to replace for example monorail(metro) tracks and maglev (shinkansen) tracks
06:02<@planetmaker>yes. Can you make me tickets, please? :-)
06:02<V453000>of course :)
06:02<@planetmaker>I could swear I tested the tunnels... :S
06:03<@planetmaker>for EVERY landscape NewGRF i could find
06:03<Eddi|zuHause>alpine is like the oldest of them...
06:03<@planetmaker>I know. And I have special code to take care of it
06:04<@planetmaker>(as I do for every landscape newgrf I found ;-) )
06:04<@planetmaker>which means... there's like two or three japanese ones with unique ids.
06:04<@planetmaker>which indeed are more or less sophisticated
06:05<V453000>yeah and all of them behave differently :|
06:05<@planetmaker>yep
06:06<@planetmaker>in any case: thanks for finding and reporting all these quirks, v :-)
06:07<V453000>pleasure as always :)
06:13*planetmaker wonders... can I skip action14 via action7/9?
06:13<Eddi|zuHause>why would you do that?
06:14<Eddi|zuHause>i'd say "won't have any effect, because action14 is evaluated before any of the action7/9 take effect"
06:14<@planetmaker>display a parameter depending on openttd version
06:16<@Yexo>Eddi is right, it's not possible, not was it ever intended to be possible
06:16<Eddi|zuHause>at the time action14 is read, action7/9 is a nop
06:18<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: such checks could only be implemented within the action14 itself
06:19<@planetmaker>ottd_minversion and ottd_maxversion as additional descriptions to entries ;-)
06:20<Eddi|zuHause>well, a "conditional" container type
06:20<@planetmaker>might actually be quite straight forward...
06:24<@Yexo>is there really a need for that?
06:25<Eddi|zuHause>show certain parameters only when newgrf_developer is set
06:25<@Alberth>just adds to the confusion imho, screenshots of the parameters are not always the same for the same grf
06:33<@planetmaker>Yexo, there's not yet a (strong) need for that. But I can imagine parameters which don't make sense with old OpenTTD versions
06:33<@Yexo>I can't image many such parameters, especially since newgrfs tend to have the need to require a new openttd version anyway
06:34<@planetmaker>If they require that, then the need is small. Indeed
06:34<@planetmaker>But e.g. for a vehicle NewGRF which wants to declare parameters which e.g. set cargo aging influences or so
06:35<@Yexo>put a string in the description it only works for openttd > x.y.z
06:35<@planetmaker>But... don't bother yourself with such feature. There's many more important things and it was when I asked mostly a thing I wondered about
06:35<@planetmaker>And of course what you just said, is done :-)
06:35<V453000>what should the newgrf_default_palette be? both 0 and 1 seem to not work
06:35<@planetmaker>other condition might be (non) presence of another NewGRF
06:36<Ammler>German speaking guys, what is the German word for Backslash?
06:36<@planetmaker>the key on the keyboard?
06:36<Ammler>\\
06:36<@Yexo>V453000: both 0 and 1 should work :p
06:36<@planetmaker>umgekehrter Schrägstrich?
06:36<Ammler>echt? :-D
06:36<b_jonas>look it up in a dictionary. http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/backslash lists some
06:37<@planetmaker>V453000, you made sure to exit openttd. edit setting. and re-start openttd?
06:37<V453000>Yexo: now 1 works ... somehow :o
06:37<@planetmaker>and re-add the newgrfs to the active list?
06:37<V453000>planetmaker: sure I did :) but somehow it did not work on the first change :D
06:37<V453000>anyway, it works now :)
06:38<@planetmaker>Ammler, without looking up anything, that's what I'd use, yes
06:38<@Yexo>V453000: it's broken indeed
06:38<@planetmaker>quite a bulky word ;-)
06:38<V453000>hm :)
06:38<@Yexo>it only works after changing the setting in-game, or rescanning the newgrf list
06:38<Ammler>planetmaker: yes, I hoped there is a shorter term, your word is also in the dicts
06:39<b_jonas>leaning toothpick
06:48<CIA-6>OpenTTD: yexo * r23393 /trunk/src/window.cpp: -Fix (r23382): AI / NewGRF sub-windows were now hidden under their parent windows
06:57<Eddi|zuHause>sometimes german words are "bulky" compared to their english counterparts :)
06:58<Lachie>alright. Enough setting up done for tonight. Will continue work tomorrow.
07:05<@planetmaker>sometimes there's not a good English word, though, either: Donaudampfschiffskapitänskajütenschlüssel ;-)
07:07<Eddi|zuHause>key-to-the-door-of-the-cabin-of-the-captain-of-a-steam-ship-on-the-danube (in reverse order)
07:08<Eddi|zuHause>hm, no... without "door"
07:10<@planetmaker>http://www.powned.tv/nieuws/media/2011/11/buma_stemra_bestuurder_corrupt.html <-- nice
07:11<^Spike^>ehm..
07:11<^Spike^>http://3voor12.vpro.nl/artikelen/artikel/45372379
07:11<^Spike^>better add that aswell then :)
07:12<@planetmaker>I didn't yet find that :-)
07:12<@planetmaker>My Dutch is not exactly fluent
07:12<^Spike^>just read that in a tweet on a music site :D
07:12<^Spike^>google translate prob helps alot ;)
07:14<@planetmaker>might. But then I prefer to read it in the original
07:14<^Spike^>:)
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07:15<MNIM>well, the headline from the first, powned reads this: the director from buma/stemra (our national copyright organisation) is corrupt
07:16<MNIM>it's the original article, and the second seems to be going deeper into the matter.
07:19<^Spike^>it's not like powned always does that.. showing the full story..
07:21<MNIM>well, it *is* a public channel based on geenstijl, which isn't unlike a dutch 4chan...
07:26<^Spike^>that's what i meant :)
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08:03<__ln__>@seen Bjarni
08:03<@DorpsGek>__ln__: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 8 weeks, 0 days, 12 hours, 43 minutes, and 56 seconds ago: <Bjarni> heh
08:04<Celestar>famous last words
08:04<Celestar>"heh"
08:04<Celestar>"I think there's a badger living on our chimney, hand me that flashlight"
08:04<Celestar>:P
08:05<Eddi|zuHause>[Dienstag, 6. September 2011] [22:10:57] <DorpsGek> __ln__: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 23 weeks, 1 day, 20 hours, 48 minutes, and 54 seconds ago: <Bjarni> thanks
08:05<Eddi|zuHause>[Mittwoch, 2. März 2011] [12:20:18] <DorpsGek> __ln__: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 1 year, 0 weeks, 5 days, 11 hours, 54 minutes, and 53 seconds ago: <Bjarni> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wVADKznOhY <-- wtf. Some rich guy built a trebuchet and uses burning pianos as ammo
08:05<Eddi|zuHause>THOSE were "famous last words" :p
08:06<@planetmaker>:-)
08:07<Eddi|zuHause>> grep "Bjarni was last" openttd.log | wc -l
08:07<Eddi|zuHause>124
08:07<Eddi|zuHause>this guy sure is popular :p
08:08<Eddi|zuHause>> grep "was last seen" openttd.log | grep DorpsGek | wc -l
08:08<Eddi|zuHause>730
08:09<Eddi|zuHause>17% of all "@seen"s
08:23<dihedral>i just wanted to say - "Bjarni was last" could also catch a game he lost :-P
08:25<Eddi|zuHause>i have no records of Bjarni ever playing a game :p
08:32<Celestar>rofl
08:33<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause: how many of those were me?
08:33<Sacro>@seen Bjarni
08:33<@DorpsGek>Sacro: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 8 weeks, 0 days, 13 hours, 14 minutes, and 0 seconds ago: <Bjarni> heh
08:33<Celestar>Amazon spams me more than all other spammers taken together ....
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08:35<Joostlek>hi
08:35<Eddi|zuHause>46 Sacro, 11+4+4+4+1 *ln*, 17+10 dih, some rest
08:36<Sacro>who
08:36<Sacro>*whoo
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09:20<@Belugas>hello
09:23<@planetmaker>hello Belugas
09:26<@Belugas>hey you :)
09:36<dihedral>@seen Zuu
09:36<@DorpsGek>dihedral: Zuu was last seen in #openttd 17 hours, 45 minutes, and 44 seconds ago: <Zuu> Does GameScripts have a short name domain of its own or must GS short names not conflict with AI short names?
09:45<@Terkhen>hello
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10:16*andythenorth is amused
10:17<andythenorth>NoGo is being treated as the magic fix to all the things the game doesn't do
10:17<andythenorth>'invent a feature'
10:17<andythenorth>'NoGo could do that'
10:17<andythenorth>:P
10:19<+glx>looks like newgrf ;)
10:19<andythenorth>it's being seen like a pony farm :P
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10:36<@Belugas>damned... christmas party tonigh. We are already drinking. the keyboard does not feel right. it MOVES
10:36<@blathijs>Aren't you a bit early with Christmas? :-)
10:37<+michi_cc>andythenorth: Why do you think nobody sane reads the Suggestions forum? :p On our forum people generally seem to only read the word "suggestion" and totally ignore any context, thus any suggestions thread automatically degenerates to "But I want my pony, too".
10:37<MNIM>wait
10:37<MNIM>I can't have my pony?
10:37<MNIM>T.T
10:38<andythenorth>michi_cc: the suggestions forum usually creates rage++
10:38<andythenorth>but the NoGo thread is in the dev forum :P
10:39<@Yexo>I've been wondering on splitting the last two pages or so and dumping those in the suggestions forum
10:39<andythenorth>more brutality in the answers :P
10:39<@planetmaker>well. TB asked for it
10:39<@planetmaker>explicitly to also go wild
10:39<andythenorth>tis true
10:40<@Yexo>yes, that was obviously a mistake
10:40<andythenorth>nah maybe not
10:40<andythenorth>might be diamonds in the dust
10:40<andythenorth>and most of my questions / suggestions are stupid
10:40<andythenorth>probably let it run
10:41<andythenorth>then file lots of suggestions under "you are asking for a change in ottd's framework(s)"
10:42<@planetmaker>yes, just let it run. Doesn't really hurt
10:42<@Yexo>most of the suggestions are not stupid, they are just totally different from the NoGo framework
10:42<andythenorth>would it help to clarify what NoGo actually does?
10:43<andythenorth>e.g. it can do getter / setter stuff on things that exist
10:43<andythenorth>but can't do anything new
10:43<@Yexo>perhaps, it'd help a lot more to get everybody who is not planning on writing a nogo script out of that topic
10:43<@planetmaker>the problem is: these boundaries are somewhat clear when you have at least a rough idea of implementation details
10:43<@planetmaker>you totally have no clue where boundaries are when you're not into the technical details
10:44<andythenorth>I have no idea of the implementation, but I know about getter / setter type approaches
10:44<@planetmaker>nah, I think having _now_ this brainstorming by everyone is quite good
10:44<@planetmaker>filtering out the obviously illusionary ones is not that bad IMHO
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10:45<@planetmaker>and with a felt ~33% which won't work it's quite ok
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10:48<@Belugas>blathijs, yes we are, but that's what happen when boss reserves a restaurant too late :) he cannot choose the dates !
10:52<@blathijs>:-)
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13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: translators * r23394 /trunk/src/lang/ (german.txt italian.txt russian.txt spanish.txt):
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: german - 2 changes by planetmaker
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: italian - 2 changes by lorenzodv
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: russian - 2 changes by Lone_Wolf
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: spanish - 2 changes by Terkhen
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14:28<andythenorth>so a NoGo script can directly manipulate my company?
14:28<andythenorth>that seems...odd
14:31<andythenorth>I didn't expect that the goal of NoGo was to provide things like helper scripts, macros etc
14:31*andythenorth may have misunderstood the forum
14:31<Zuu>A NoGo can switch to any company and execute actions as that company.
14:32<Zuu>If this is good or not can be questionable. I think even TrueBrain said so.
14:32<andythenorth>I can see why people would want that
14:32<andythenorth>but it seems at best odd
14:33<@Terkhen>don't use scripts that might interfere with your company
14:33<andythenorth>how would you know without reading them?
14:33<@Terkhen>you read the script description
14:33<andythenorth>you read the source
14:33*Terkhen does not need to read FIRS source to know that it adds industries
14:34<andythenorth>hmm
14:34<frosch123>andythenorth: helper functions are only an abuse of the feature
14:34<andythenorth>this would make infrastructure sharing patch unneeded
14:35<frosch123>you can use it to destroy company stuff, award free engines, punish companies, ...
14:35<andythenorth>just make GUI events NoGo events
14:35<frosch123>take the teleporter thingie as example :p
14:35<andythenorth>then one player can participate in another players company
14:35*andythenorth thinks this is actually a very bad idea
14:35<andythenorth>but meh
14:36<frosch123>it is common behaviour of quests in various other games to make some units/heros appear somewhere and leave somewhere else
14:36<andythenorth>at least it makes the lemmings 'nuke' button possible
14:37<andythenorth>might as well add a custom gui
14:37<andythenorth>NoGo should be able to add gui buttons of it's own
14:37<andythenorth>its / it's /s
14:37<frosch123>this also includes stuff like "you are offered these 10 engines. use them for free in the next 24 months; but you have to return them save"
14:37<frosch123>s/save/in good shape/
14:38<@Yexo>andythenorth: nogo is server-only, it doesn't run on any of the clients
14:39<andythenorth>it seems odd to spend so much time restricting MP griefing opportunities, then open up a griefer's dream
14:39<andythenorth>plus a whole new class of bug reports
14:39<andythenorth>"I was playing a game, and half my track disappeared"
14:39<andythenorth>"Were you playing a NoGo game?"
14:40<andythenorth>"Yes"
14:40<andythenorth>"Sorry we can't support games using NoGo"
14:40<@Yexo>andythenorth: but only the server owner would be able to do taht
14:40<@Yexo>the server owner can already grief in various ways, for example by dropping all your commands
14:41<andythenorth>and the savegame would include the NoGo script?
14:41<@Yexo>how does that matter?
14:41<andythenorth>debugging?
14:41<@Yexo>it would include the name of the NoGo script but not the contents
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14:42<andythenorth>I'm not worried what any particular server does. What I'm curious about is would we start discounting bugs as 'must be NoGo', then miss some real bugs?
14:43<@Yexo>I'm not worried about that at all
14:44<frosch123>we also do that with grfs. "grfs were changed? it must be your fault" even if the bug is totally unrelated :p
14:44<@planetmaker>:-D
14:45<@planetmaker>andythenorth: griefing is only really an issue for clients
14:45<MNIM>I agree with frosch123 there >.>
14:45<@planetmaker>malicious servers can't be really treated or ruled out
14:46<Zuu>While malicious servers could override it, it would maybe be useful to have a flag in the MP game list if that particular server uses NoGo or not.
14:47<andythenorth>it's probably useful to be able to do some amusing evil
14:47<andythenorth>like last man standing
14:47<andythenorth>'deliver x to this town, and destroy a competitor'
14:47<andythenorth>etc
14:47<andythenorth>although that could be done by simply closing company
14:47<andythenorth>I find it odd that GS can literally build track etc for me
14:48<Zuu>I have been thinking about throwing in the tutorial/NoGo question somewhere to let people think about that and not just disasters :-)
14:50<frosch123>andythenorth: the gs could also do the building only at start; then the scenario would be "make this mess profittable" :p
14:50<andythenorth>I'm sure there are creative ways to use it
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14:50<andythenorth>it's just weird to go from no scripts, to have a multi-purpose scripting engine that can literally do anything
14:51<andythenorth>so new disasters and such could be done
14:51<Wolf01>hello
14:51<andythenorth>we could just forget some of the game's current frameworks and script everything
14:52<Zuu>However, then execution speed kicks in and make some ideas too slow to execute as GS :-)
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14:55<@Terkhen>hi Wolf01
14:58<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23395 /:
14:58<Wolf01>lol?
14:59<@Terkhen>lazy CIA-6
15:01<@Rubidium>nah, more OOM-ish (stupid svnserve)
15:02<Wolf01>I often commit with [ as commit message because I press ctrl+enter, but it's not that bad as I'm the admin too so I can change the commit message :P
15:04<Wolf01>but really I can't understand how trying to write [] makes me sending the commit instead
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15:14<andythenorth>so GS could do .e.g coal mine disaster
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15:19<@Terkhen>maybe
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15:24<andythenorth>so what colour is bauxite?
15:25<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: i have that problem when trying to write '
15:27<andythenorth>most of my smileys end up as : because for some reason I hit enter instead of ) or P
15:32<@Terkhen>bauxite-ish
15:34<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: that happens when i am either very fast, or i don't hit the key correctly
15:35<Eddi|zuHause>often i type ( instead of ) and hit enter before i can correct it
15:35<@Rubidium>andythenorth: if I understand it correctly any colour would be right (tm)
15:36<@planetmaker>andythenorth: from what I searched it's very diverse
15:36<andythenorth>it amuses me that there's so much discussion :)
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15:42<andythenorth>bah
15:42<andythenorth>http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-16000331
15:43<@Rubidium>so now the prophecy is that it won't be happening?
15:44<@Belugas>let it snow, let is snow, let is snow
15:45<Eddi|zuHause>i should earn my money prophecising(?) that "the world doesn't end today. if i'm wrong, you don't have to pay me"
15:45<frosch123>oh, so the world will not end before dbset is released?
15:45<andythenorth>you don't know that
15:45<andythenorth>maybe it will be for christmas :P
15:45<@Belugas>funny thing, people got scared over stuff they did not understand
15:45<andythenorth>a dbset is for life, not just for christmas
15:46<@Belugas>it's not about end of world, but end of an era
15:46<@Belugas>silly people
15:46<@Rubidium>*if* dbset will be released, it will definitely be released before christmas
15:47<andythenorth>care to state which year? :P
15:47<frosch123>it's always before the next christmas and after the last one
15:47<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: and what if the world ending falls exactly between dbset and christmas?
15:47<andythenorth>if you people would help me, you might get a new truck set :P
15:47<Eddi|zuHause>or... if islam wins over christianity?
15:48<frosch123>what does christmas have to do with christianity?
15:48<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: will islam win over commercialism?
15:49<Eddi|zuHause>speaking of... anybody knows if and when there are new episodes of little mosque?
15:49<@Rubidium>I doubt it will, so christmas will remans... after all, it's for most purely a commercial thing
15:49<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: if it is about a series, then rb will know for sure :p
15:49<Eddi|zuHause>worse. it's about a CANADIAN series :)
15:50*andythenorth ponders
15:50<@Rubidium>frosch123: really?
15:50<@Rubidium>there aren't that many series I follow
15:50<frosch123>i had the impression it were like 50+
15:50<Eddi|zuHause>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Mosque_on_the_Prairie
15:51<andythenorth>my truck set has ~14 rigid trucks, and ~4 articulated trucks. ~10 of the rigid trucks could have trailers. So 28 trucks in the buy menu?
15:51<andythenorth>sounds a lot
15:51<Eddi|zuHause>(roughly translates to "Unsere kleine Moschee")
15:52<frosch123>andythenorth: compare that to the number of busses of the average rv set :p
15:52<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: wikpedia says that if season 6 is done there won't be
15:54<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: my archive goes up to season 5 only
15:55<andythenorth>how many buses are there in the average RV set? :P
15:56<frosch123>too many
15:56<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: maybe you should try to cut down on the 14 trucks? the question is not really how many you have, but how many of them will be available simultaneously
15:56<Eddi|zuHause>so you should maybe phase out vehicles
15:57<andythenorth>it's tricky
15:57<andythenorth>I'm doing the 'upgraded stats' approach
15:57<andythenorth>but with alternating models, out of step
15:57<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: then what's the unique outstanding property of each of the 14 trucks?
15:58<andythenorth>maybe the capacities are too closely spaced
16:00<andythenorth>I can probably eliminate at least 3 trucks from the 14
16:01<Eddi|zuHause>i'm really not fond of "stat upgrades"
16:01<Eddi|zuHause>i hate it with aircraft
16:02<Eddi|zuHause>just offer a new prototype like regular people...
16:02<Eddi|zuHause>it will be properly announced in the news
16:03<Eddi|zuHause>it's "'realism' for people who already know the real thing". not for the average game player, who has to discover things first
16:04<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I use 'engines never expire'
16:05<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: yes. but not all people do.
16:05<andythenorth>I'm not developing grfs for all people :)
16:05<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i'm telling you. engines expiring easily solves your overcrowded buy list issue :p
16:06<andythenorth>I know
16:06<andythenorth>but that's not a setting I use :P
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: but you should design and test your sets with the setting in mind
16:06<andythenorth>don't even remember why tbh
16:07<Eddi|zuHause>e.g. HEQS gets totally annoying after a while. you have 10 mining trucks, each slightly bigger than the previous. while you could just as easily hide all but the biggest
16:07<andythenorth>hmm
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16:07<andythenorth>I thought I set expiry dates on those
16:07*andythenorth checks
16:07<andythenorth>might be a bug
16:08<andythenorth>HEQS mixes both approaches
16:08<Eddi|zuHause>maybe you should make use of the "early retirement" property
16:08<@Terkhen>would making subsidies more common be a bad idea?
16:08<Eddi|zuHause>even though a vehicle has a lifetime of 40-60 years, it needs only be available for 10-15, until a newer model comes out
16:08*andythenorth checks
16:09<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: offer a setting?
16:09<@Terkhen>urgh
16:09<@Terkhen>the problem is that I can't determine probabilities in a precise way
16:09<@Terkhen>:P
16:09<andythenorth>subsidies are a GS shaped problem
16:09<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: imho there should be a few subsidies already in place on game start
16:10<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: seems all the mining trucks have class life 25 years
16:10<Eddi|zuHause>because that's the only place where you actually need them (in the current environment)
16:10<@Terkhen>both GS and different subsidy handling are out of the scope of my queue, I'm just fixing the default subsidies
16:11<andythenorth>brr
16:11<andythenorth>HEQS intro dates are mostly pure hex, no escapes at all :(
16:11<Eddi|zuHause>happy counting of days :)
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16:16<andythenorth>hmm
16:16<andythenorth>when is class life not class life?
16:17<andythenorth>@calc 2010 - 1979
16:17<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 31
16:17<andythenorth>hmm
16:17<andythenorth>this truck won't go away
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16:18<@planetmaker>yeah. vehicles usually drive.
16:18<@planetmaker>or they're called battle droids or so ;-)
16:18<andythenorth>41 years
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16:19<andythenorth>is there randomisation on class life?
16:20<Eddi|zuHause>afair yes
16:20<@planetmaker>there's different stages... http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0/Vehicles
16:20<andythenorth>ah
16:20<andythenorth>up to 17 years :P
16:20<@planetmaker>yes
16:20<@planetmaker>it's imho totally unintuitive ;-)
16:21<Eddi|zuHause>not rather 17 months?
16:21<@planetmaker>years
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16:21<@planetmaker>see phase 3
16:21<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I can't entirely fix your problem
16:21<andythenorth>:(
16:21<Eddi|zuHause>oh. the phase 3 you mean. that's totally irrelevant if you set early retirement to something other than 0
16:22<andythenorth>right
16:22<@planetmaker>if
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>so the initial 0-512 days, plus the 7-38 months of phase 1 are the "relevant" randomisation
16:23<andythenorth>I always wondered what those props were for :P
16:25<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: in CETS the (unimplemented) plan was something like: if vehicle life is 30 years, and the next vehicle comes out after 10 years, the model life should be 40+x years (10+30+x) and early retirement 30 years
16:26<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: do you want to patch HEQS? :P
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>where x is some overlap to cover the randomness
16:26<andythenorth>otherwise I write a ticket
16:26<andythenorth>for the mining trucks the overlap can be quite limited
16:26<andythenorth>I didn't understand how prop 04 works, so already the intention was only a few years overlap
16:27<Eddi|zuHause>i once calculated x should be around 4 years
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16:28<Eddi|zuHause>but this should undergo some testing
16:30<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/3312
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16:34<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: so I use 'engines never expire' to keep small trucks in egrvts
16:34<andythenorth>a new truck set ends that
16:34<andythenorth>but that's immaterial to set design
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16:39<andythenorth>hmm
16:40<andythenorth>NARS 2 has 20-30 engines in the buy menu
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17:01<@planetmaker>g'night
17:01<andythenorth>bye planetmaker
17:03<Lachie>night
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17:13<andythenorth>maybe 6 rigid trucks
17:13<andythenorth>then all duplicated to add trailers :P
17:17<@Terkhen>good night
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17:41*frosch123 is confused
17:42<frosch123>why does the java Integer class not have a setter function
17:42<frosch123>am i not allowed to change value after construction? :o
17:43<TrueBrain>lol
17:46<@Rubidium>frosch123: because you generally avoid using the Integer class in favour of just int
17:46<@Rubidium>(except when you put it in collections)
17:46<frosch123>exactly that i am doing :p
17:46<@Rubidium>is it performance critical?
17:46<@Rubidium>if not, use AtomicInteger ;)
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17:47<frosch123>nah, i just noticed that this does not work anyway this way :p
17:51<TrueBrain>you are programming in Java; what did you expect? *troll*
17:57<@Rubidium>pff... Java is the easiest language we use at work for sane and proper databasew work ;)
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18:00<Lachie>morning all, anyone familiar with using the DevZone makefile around?
18:01-!-Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd
18:01<Lachie>(or anything development environment related at all, really)
18:01*Zuu was just about to think about going to bed, but good morning :-)
18:02<@Rubidium>Lachie: I think everyone really familiar with it is asleep
18:05<Wolf01>'night
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18:05<Lachie>rightio. I'm a bit of a noob for these sort of things. Used to do a tiiiiny bit of that sort of stuff years ago, but for all intents and purposes I'm just starting out. Issue is, I can't seem to work out how to get mingw to use Mercurial. Just comes up with hg: command not found
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18:06<Lachie>I've searched through the documentation for mercurial and mingw and can't find where I might be going wrong. I thought someone may have an idea
18:06<Zuu>Did you install mercurial with the mingw installer or a the stand alone Mercurial installer?
18:07<Zuu>(I don't know if mingw have this option, but cygwin does and on at least one pc I have hg installed that way, but at least one the other way too)
18:07<Lachie>standalone, mingw didn't have the option
18:08<Zuu>Make sure that the PATH environment variable get set so that it includes the directory wher your hg.exe is.
18:08<Zuu>You probably sholud figure out where your .bashrc (or _bashrc) is located.
18:09<Zuu>In there you can update PATH to include the path to hg. Assuming that mingw can have paths to anywhere on your filesystem or at least that you have installed Mercurial in a place which mingw can reach.
18:09<Lachie>okay, I'm silly. I don't why I didn't think of that, considering I did the same thing with NML five minutes before
18:11<Lachie>thanks for that, I'll give it a whirl when I get home. In the meantime, work tiemz.
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18:11<Zuu>glad I could help
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18:40<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23396 /trunk/src/script/api/squirrel_export.awk: -Fix: squirrel export script did not ignore Doxygen blocks, causing funny results in some corner cases
18:40<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23397 /trunk/ (8 files in 4 dirs): -Change: remove the AI_ prefix from all AIEvent enums
18:40<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23398 /trunk/src/company_cmd.cpp: -Fix: the AIEvent.ET_COMPANY_NEW was only triggered if a company named itself, which seems like a very odd place to do so. Trigger it when the company is created instead
18:40<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23399 /trunk/src/ai/ai_scanner.cpp: -Fix (r23362): a randomizer should return a random value, not always the first
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18:44<TrueBrain>and yes, 23399 is a noob error, and yes, you are allowed to laugh at me for it :)
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19:15<mib_lnh6ex>Erepublik is the only browser game i have played since 2008 http://www.erepublik.com/en/referrer/OJSimpson I will help you grow
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21:12<Hawson_>win 30
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---Logclosed Sat Dec 03 00:00:16 2011