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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-12-04

---Logopened Sun Dec 04 00:00:19 2011
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02:16<andythenorth>YAIM in trunk?
02:16*andythenorth was about to apply the patch
02:16<andythenorth>saved me time :)
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02:46<andythenorth>stupid towns are full of theatres again
03:03*andythenorth tries to figure out what's going on in BuildTownHouse
03:03<andythenorth>prior to about 1930(?) most larger towns will be dominated into theatres
03:03<andythenorth>this is silly
03:03<@planetmaker>default houses or newgrf?
03:04<@planetmaker>in any case it's like: Town wants to grow and says 'grow here (town zone X). What house do you give me?'
03:05<@planetmaker>which then is decided by the newgrf
03:05<@planetmaker>same thing works with default houses basically
03:05*andythenorth wonders if it's because of limited choices for the inner town zone
03:05<@planetmaker>yes, probably
03:06<andythenorth>far as I can tell there are only 3 buildings available for inner area in 19th Century
03:06<andythenorth>by 1930 there are at least 6, perhaps more
03:07<andythenorth>I thought there'd be a table for this in src somewhere
03:07<andythenorth>can't find it though :|
03:07<@planetmaker>there is
03:10<@planetmaker>hm... <-- they know how to put something into scene
03:14<Rubidium>so you just let me watch a commercial? ;)
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03:19<@planetmaker>kinda ;-)
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03:20<@planetmaker>I guess as pure art work it pays badly
03:26<andythenorth>so before 1930, for any town large enough to get zone 5, zone 5 will be ~50% theatres
03:26<andythenorth>(temperate, haven't counted other climates yet)
03:26<andythenorth>I haven't counted for zone 4 yet :P
03:31<andythenorth>temperate zone 4 < 1930 will be churches, theaters, stadiums, and one type of office block
03:31<andythenorth>a society that clearly lives on religion, football and cabaret
03:31<andythenorth>maybe accurate for 19th Century Britain :P
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03:54<@Terkhen>good morning
03:55<andythenorth>YAIM + ships
03:55<@Terkhen>oh, I have a lot of strings to translate
03:58<@Terkhen>nice nice
03:59<andythenorth>FIRS 'improved' station algorithm is improved too much
03:59<@Terkhen>I did not test YAIM but it seems fun :)
04:06<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: there's only one church and one stadium allowed per town
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04:09<andythenorth>that's why theatres dominate then
04:09<andythenorth>can we fix this?
04:09<Eddi|zuHause>by newgrf providing enough houses
04:09<andythenorth>it seems dumb to have to load a newgrf to fix a game bug
04:10*andythenorth considers making an all-in-one 'fix the game' newgrf
04:11<@planetmaker>well. Personally I still have the idea to get some "default newgrfs" which are automatically disabled when you add a newgrf which supplies that feature and which can also manually explicitly be disabled
04:11<@planetmaker>that would solve many issues and limitations of the base sets
04:11<andythenorth>planetmaker: or reimplement all the defaults *in newgrf*
04:11<@planetmaker>that'd be part of it. yes
04:12<andythenorth>the theatres are a bug. they cause town population to fall when the town grows.
04:12<andythenorth>unless someone can prove that removing that (a) breaks newgrfs (c) breaks some mythical TTDP compatibility, it's a bug :)
04:12*andythenorth missed point (b)
04:12<andythenorth>what is point (b) ? :o
04:14<andythenorth>it's fixable by extending the number of zones some of the houses can occupy
04:14<andythenorth>+ set a couple of intro dates to 0 instead of 1930
04:14<@planetmaker>would fix it. Would also modify house NewGRFs.
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04:15<andythenorth>but we're prepared to break newgrfs to fix a bug...
04:15<andythenorth>this only affects temperate btw
04:15<andythenorth>well...maybe toyland, I didn't check toyland :P
04:16<andythenorth>toyland also unaffected. that was an unpleasant 1 min
04:17<Rubidium>just make yourself comfortable with it, you'll be playing it a lot with your child(ren) ;)
04:18<andythenorth>rm 'openttd' -r in that case
04:20<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: setting house dates to 0 breaks lots of (newgrf) assumptions
04:21<Eddi|zuHause>and it doesn't solve any bugs either
04:24<andythenorth>maybe I just add it to all my grfs :P
04:24<andythenorth>or we change the wiki
04:24<andythenorth>is it actually intentional? it's the same effect as parks and statues have
04:24<andythenorth>grow town -> lose population
04:27<andythenorth>documentation bug?
04:28<andythenorth>wiki page on town growth could be adjusted to something like...
04:28<andythenorth> 'Before 1930, in Temperate climate, try to avoid growing towns if you are also providing passenger service, as growing the town will reduce the population'
04:28<andythenorth>'To avoid growing the town, do not pickup cargo at more than 4 stations within n days'
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04:31<Eddi|zuHause>that's both silly and wrong
04:33<@planetmaker>andythenorth: n theatres still have more population than n-1 theatres
04:33<Eddi|zuHause>maybe we should change the town zones, so even in 10k-40k population cities, it covers only a handful of tiles
04:34<Eddi|zuHause>"it" being zone 5
04:34<andythenorth>zone 4 causes the same issue in temperate
04:34<andythenorth>although I still can't figure out why
04:34<andythenorth>n theatres should indeed increase popn
04:34<andythenorth>and theatre popn > house popn
04:34<andythenorth>so replacing houses should increase popn
04:35<Eddi|zuHause>houses under construction don't count towards population
04:35<Eddi|zuHause>so _any_ tonwn growth may temporarily lower population
04:35<andythenorth>the falling popn occurs when theatres (35 popn) replace this 100 popn building TOWN_BUILDING_NAME_SHOPS_AND_OFFICES_2
04:36<@planetmaker>I can't help the feeling that a N=1 observation is generalized to 'always' in this discussion
04:37<andythenorth>you can never disprove that
04:37<Eddi|zuHause>"proof by example"
04:38<andythenorth>it's just a game :P
04:38<andythenorth>but I cba to continue playing that one
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04:39<Eddi|zuHause>try TTRS or swedi...
04:39<Eddi|zuHause>what did i tell about blitzquitting?
04:42<@Terkhen>but he does not want to use a bouncer :P
04:42<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23418 /trunk/src/saveload/town_sl.cpp: -Fix [FS#4866] (r22958): saves made with the Catalan town name generator would trigger a "savegame corrupt" exception
04:43<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23419 /trunk/src/newgrf_debug_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#4864] (r23316): the sprite aligner was broken as it didn't scale properly to 'GUI' scale
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04:52<@Terkhen>hi amix
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04:53<amix>Terkhen: i wish openttd got ported further for morphos :/
04:54<@Terkhen>I barely know what morphos is so I can't help you much besides the usual "ports need someone dedicated enough to make the necessary changes polished enough for trunk" comment
04:54<@planetmaker>there's one way to make sure: help porting it
04:54<@Terkhen>yes, that comment :P
04:55<@planetmaker>(otherwise I'm with Terkhen there)
04:55*planetmaker googles morphos
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04:56<@Terkhen>hmm... I remember some comments about the morphos port
04:56<@Terkhen>IIRC it uses an ancient gcc :P
04:57<@planetmaker>yes, I have similar memories
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05:09<amix>latest is 0.3.6 :)
05:09<amix>and latest nightbuild is r131825
05:09<@planetmaker>both is... ancient
05:09<amix>and latest nightbuild is r13825
05:10<amix>I know ;(
05:10<amix>atleast someone ported Simutrans now
05:10<@Alberth>so first step, getting a decent g++ at morphos?
05:11<@Terkhen> <--- it seems that I'm wrong, gcc 4.4.5 is not that ancient
05:12<@Terkhen>I remembered something like 2.x, which it also seems to use
05:12<@Terkhen>I have no clue of this OS so I'm going to stop talking :P
05:13<amix>this is more recent news
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05:14<Amis>Hello o/
05:14<Zuu>Hello Amis
05:14<amix>hi Amis
05:15<Amis>Soooo... I'm on 1.1.3 now and I kind of encountered this strange behaviour of landscaping
05:15<Amis>I'm not able to do it on huge areas, it does only random parts of the selected area
05:15<Amis>Am I missing something here?
05:16<Zuu>There is a setting to limit amount of landscaping in short amount of time.
05:16<@Alberth>you're hitting the terraform limits
05:16<Amis>Oh, is it a in the cfg?
05:17<Zuu>It is mostly targeted towards multiplayer but can be used in single player too.
05:17<Amis>It's the "terraform_per_64k_frames" I guess?
05:18<Zuu>There are a few settings there (4 IIRC) related to the terroforming limits
05:18<@Alberth>terraform_per_64k_frames = 4194304
05:18<@Alberth>terraform_frame_burst = 4096
05:18<Amis>The 64k one has to be a multiply of 2?
05:19<@Alberth>one is the amount, and the other is the increment rate
05:19<@Alberth>@calc 2**22
05:19<@DorpsGek>Alberth: 4194304
05:20<@Alberth>c->terraform_limit = min(c->terraform_limit +, (uint32) << 16);
05:21<@Alberth>doesn't look like it
05:21<Amis>When was the feature implemented?
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05:22<@Alberth>@revision 21728
05:23<@Alberth>meh :(
05:23<TrueBrain>@commit 21728
05:23<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: Commit by rubidium :: r21728 /trunk/src (12 files in 4 dirs) (2011-01-04 22:50:09 UTC)
05:23<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: -Fix/Feature [FS#4331]: (configurably) limit amount of tiles that can be cleared/terraformed by a company
05:23<@Alberth>thanks :)
05:23*Lachie explodes
05:24<Amis>And now comes the obvious question: where can I disable it? :3
05:24<@Alberth>not, but you can set the 64k one high enough not to be bothered by it
05:26<Amis>int max will do I guess
05:26<TrueBrain>and burst (which is the max of the bucket), so when you do nothingm it collectsmore :)
05:27<Amis>Okkey, int max was a bad idea, I guess it turned over and now I'm not allowed to terraform at all :)
05:30<@Alberth>the settings that I pasted are the defaults
05:35<Zuu>And the defaluts are not very restrictive.
05:44<Rubidium>amix: MorphOS is a pretty closed OS; you need MorphOS running to be able to compile it, and running it isn't that trivial if you don't have the hardware. IIRC it even doesn't (or at least didn't) work in qemu, so you need to have some MorphOS developer wanting to do the work
05:44<Rubidium>instead of a random somewhat interested person
05:45<Amis>I have to admit scenarios generated with heightmaps are far the most beautiful maps in game
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05:48<CIA-6>OpenTTD: frosch * r23420 /trunk/src/company_gui.cpp: -Change: Put the manager name directly under the picture instead of vertically centering it.
05:48<Arkabzol>Terraforming is for people who aren't lazy, so I made a heightmap that is almost completely flat. And the lakes are rectangular.
05:49<frosch123>isn't that like completely boring?
05:50<Arkabzol>I could make tunnels if I wanted to.
05:50<Arkabzol>That would be a bit boring.
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05:52<CIA-6>OpenTTD: alberth * r23421 /trunk/src/window.cpp: -Fix [FS#4865, FS#4861] (r23393): The priority of WC_GAME_OPTIONS windows were too high, causing hiding of currency window as well.
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05:55*Lachie throws Python through a window
05:59<@Alberth>snakes don't like being thrown
05:59<Lachie>this is true.
06:02<Lachie>though, I don't particularly like when python can't find standard modules included in it
06:05<@planetmaker>paths set correctly?
06:07<Lachie>yes indeed. does mingw ignore the environmental variables?
06:08<@planetmaker>afaik not
06:08<@Alberth>python -v dumps the directories it searches and modules it finds/loads
06:10<Lachie>actually, it's making reference to the stuff residing in a folder (and drive) that doesn't exist. curious.
06:11<SpComb>it'll do a lot of lookups for nonexistant folders
06:11<SpComb>within the search paths configured
06:11<SpComb>check sys.path from within the interp
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06:18<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23422 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_config.h openttd.cpp table/settings.ini): -Fix [FS#4863] (r22797): the default palette setting wasn't applied correctly anymore as the configuration file is loaded after the first NewGRF scan
06:56<amix>Rubidium: morphos community is offering to give away hardware for openttd to be developed further
06:56<amix>so just tell me if someone is interested
06:57<TrueBrain>lol; that many OpenTTD players in the MorphOS community? :P
06:57<Rubidium>amix: we rather have a good working cross-compiler as a morphos machine is difficult to put in a rack in a datacentre
06:58<CIA-6>OpenTTD: alberth * r23423 /trunk/src/window.cpp: -Revert (r23421): NewGRF windows may not be moved to normal priority.
06:59<CIA-6>OpenTTD: frosch * r23424 /trunk/src/company_gui.cpp: -Change: Make the company GUI somewhat smaller if there are no shareholders.
06:59<TrueBrain>commit spree!
06:59<@Alberth>just 3 commits?
07:00<amix>TrueBrain: yes
07:00<amix>we play latest version ported on Amiga meetings and so on still
07:00<amix>even if its only 0.3.6
07:00<TrueBrain>Alberth: different people committing at the same time always excites me :D
07:00<TrueBrain>hehe :D
07:00<TrueBrain>amix: you should just seduce tokai ;)
07:01<Rubidium>amix: and I don't think OpenTTD needs much porting; it's pretty careless about the platforms as long as its unixy enough (or has a set of wrappers) and has sdl (or a custom video/sound/music driver)
07:01<amix>system I use
07:02<Rubidium>that says 0.6.3, not 0.3.6
07:02<Rubidium>and that's a pretty big difference ;)
07:02<amix>0.6.3 yes
07:03<+tokai>amix: Where do I sign up for this free hardware?
07:04*tokai needs a PowerBook.
07:04<amix>tokai: it was amigadave who offered that on morphzone
07:04<amix>tokai: long time no see. miss you :)
07:05<+tokai>amix: Yeah.. I had quit MophOS development in March. :)
07:06<amix>tokai: not coming back?
07:06<+tokai>missed an 'r' there... oups.
07:06<+tokai>amix: Something like last week.
07:07<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23425 /trunk/known-bugs.txt: -Document [FS#4815]: why vehicles might be continuously changing speed up and down
07:07<+tokai>amix: Nobody missed me really. :)
07:08<amix>tokai: I miss you
07:09<amix>I think your a cool person to discuss with
07:10<+tokai>amix: Anyway... about that free hardware.... ask if it's a PowerBook :)
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07:11<CIA-6>OpenTTD: alberth * r23426 /trunk/src/window.cpp: -Change [FS#4685] (r23423): Put currency window above game options.
07:12<amix>tokai: I have a PowerBook
07:12<amix>but with bad battery
07:13<+tokai>amix: I have none. But I'm in charge for developing software for Battery support. Quite a dilemma, huh? :)
07:15<TrueBrain>well, at least yours is always charged then :D
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07:25<amix>tokai: stefkos ported Simutrans for MorphOS :) Its soo slow hehe :) but ok to play even with 11FPS
07:27<+tokai>amix: Never heard of it.
07:28<amix>its a bit like openttd
07:29<+tokai>Looks like some TTD clone, yes.
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07:57<amix>tokai: hope to see an openttd update some time
08:00*andythenorth wonders if GS can control details of house construction
08:00<andythenorth>likely a bad idea
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08:08<defiance>Anyone know of a good tutorial on using signals and Semaphores? I think I understand them, just want a tutorial to make sure.
08:09<@planetmaker>defiance: if you understand them, then a game is the ultimate test ;-)
08:09<ABCRic>can someone confirm the music is working correctly on the latest nightly?
08:10<ABCRic>I'm using the win32 nightly (r23401) and no music is played. The jukebox loops through all the music tracks as if they were empty.
08:11<defiance>Thank you Alberth, and planetmaker.
08:11<Rubidium>ABCRic: it works fine for me
08:14<+glx>ABCRic: this behaviour usually means no music files
08:15<ABCRic>glx: they're there. Windows Media Player can play them fine
08:15<Eddi|zuHause>ABCRic: checked the game settings?
08:16<ABCRic>1.1.3 works fine, r23401 and trunk don't
08:16<+glx>where are the music files ?
08:17<Eddi|zuHause>self compiled?
08:17<ABCRic>trunk is self-compiled, 1.1.3 and r23401 aren't
08:19<Eddi|zuHause>try to find the last revision that works? (bisecting checkouts)
08:22<CIA-6>OpenTTD: frosch * r23427 /trunk/src/settings.cpp: -Fix: Do not load screen resolution and other basic stuff after bootstrap is finished. It was already loaded before, and might got changed already.
08:23<frosch123>ABCRic: did you use a nightly before? or only 1.1.3?
08:23<ABCRic>I've been self-compiling since a few thousand revisions ago
08:24<ABCRic>1.1.4-RC1 is also working fine
08:24<frosch123>so it worked once for stuff newer than r23219?
08:24<frosch123>or did you update from something older?
08:25<ABCRic>From older, I believe
08:25<+glx>ABCRic: win32 or win64 ?
08:26<ABCRic>Also, the original_windows set is at Documents\OpenTTD\gm
08:26<ABCRic>Doesn't work either.
08:27<CIA-6>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r23428 /trunk/src/company_gui.cpp: -Fix (r23415): Initial size of the infrastructure details windows was sometimes too small.
08:27<ABCRic>The jukebox loops all the tracks' names instantly, as if each track had <1sec duration
08:27<+glx>same here
08:27<+glx>looking at it
08:28<frosch123>ABCRic: what happend if you rename Documents\OpenTTD\gm to Documents\OpenTTD\baseset ?
08:29<ABCRic>It works
08:29<andythenorth>FIRS fishing harbours are very annoying
08:30<+glx>filename = 0x0018f348 "D:\Mes documents\OpenTTD\content_download\baseset\GM_TT00.GM"
08:30<+glx>indeed it doesn't look where files are
08:31<ABCRic>I'm off for lunch, brb
08:33<+glx>FindSets() correctly looks in gm and data
08:36<frosch123>glx: FioFindFullPath does not seem to test the old dirs
08:37<Rubidium>so if it fails for baseset it should try gm I guess (in the music_gui.cpp code)
08:37<Rubidium>as that's basically the only code that doesn't use the 'normal' code for opening a file
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08:53<ABCRic>I'm back, any luck on the issue?
08:56<appe>"cargo waiting to be processed: 2,992 vehicles (486 max)"
08:56<appe>wait what
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09:00<ABCRic>appe: IIRC, there's a NewGRF property that makes industries ignore maximum capacities
09:00<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23429 /trunk/src/window.cpp: -Fix [FS#4842]: prevent windows to be resized beyond the bounds of the (main) window
09:00<appe>ABCRic: ah, thats true. i guess i forgot using it
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09:17<CIA-6>OpenTTD: glx * r23430 /trunk/src/music_gui.cpp: -Fix (r23219): also consider the old directories when playing a song
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09:46<andythenorth>FIRS should allow closure of outdated industries
09:46<andythenorth>how can that be done?
09:47<ABCRic>music is now detected correctly, but the volume is much lower than it was before
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09:51<+glx>just move the volume control
09:51<frosch123>andythenorth: in grfv8 you can do date-specific appearance chances
09:51<andythenorth>worth knowing thanks :)
09:53<ABCRic>glx: with the same setting as before, the music isn't as loud as before
09:54<+glx>music volume is a hard thing to handle
09:54<ABCRic>test trunk against 1.1.4-RC1
09:58<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: now nml only needs to output v8 grfs :p
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10:31<TrueBrain>nice start on the tutorial thingy Zuu :)
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10:34<Zuu>Thanks TrueBrain :-)
10:36<Zuu>I'm not sure if non-linearity is really needed. Makes things easier if each chapter is just a sequence of steps. At least if a step model is used.
10:36<TrueBrain>I think it would be the most sane Tutorial
10:36<TrueBrain>only possible branching on chapter selection
10:36<Zuu>Another way is how TutorialAI is made. That each chapter is a function call that only returns when that chapter is done. However, then there need to be a lot of event polling everywhere.
10:37<TrueBrain>some weird idea how you can do chapter selection, is by letting them start a certain train which goes into a depot or station or whatever :P
10:38<Zuu>Yep, if it is bound to a scenario that would be possible. Also with the 2500 init ticks, one could build a menu like that. :-)
10:38<TrueBrain>the tutorial should be loaded with a scenario yes :)
10:38<TrueBrain>a random map might be very hard
10:38<TrueBrain>it might fail in some cases, which would be bad :)
10:41<Zuu>Regarding highlighting buttons etc. I think it would be useful if there is an Event for when the highlighted button is clicked.
10:42<TrueBrain>else highlihting is a bit silly I guess :D
10:42<Zuu>so that can be used for progressing the tutorial rather than having a "button" / sign to progress.
10:43<TrueBrain>started a new build of NoGo btw
10:43<TrueBrain>with all the new goodies (excluding translations)
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10:44<Zuu>I'll be afk for a while. cya later
10:46<@planetmaker>Zuu: I shall surely try to be of assistance there
10:48<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23431 /trunk/src/script/api/script_road.hpp: -Fix: typo in @param variable
10:48<@Alberth>only one? :)
10:48<TrueBrain>a clear case of copy/paste :D
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11:00<TrueBrain>new NoGo version online :)
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12:23<Eddi|zuHause>why does the "quote" button not have snow?
12:24<@Alberth>it only snows at the left side of the window?
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12:30<fabis94>um can I ask a question here about the game :P
12:30<@Alberth>just ask :)
12:31<@Alberth>at IRC, people just burst into the channel with their question :)
12:32<fabis94>ok well
12:32<@Alberth>then, the non-patient ones leave again within 10 minutes, and the patient ones wait for an answer :p
12:32<fabis94>what do I do with the mail lol
12:32<fabis94>my plane just picked up mail from one city, flew over to another city
12:32<fabis94>and instead of putting it down or whatever
12:32<fabis94>it just flies it back
12:32<fabis94>to the original city
12:33<@Alberth>you have transfer orders for the plane at the destination?
12:33<@Alberth>if so, that's wrong :)
12:33<fabis94>The orders are like this: 1. Go to X (Unload and take cargo)
12:33<fabis94>2. Go to Y (unload and take cargo)
12:34<fabis94>i just want it to unload stuff thats supposed to go to X at X and pick up stuff that it will carry to Y, then fly to Y
12:34<@Alberth>ok, that looks fine, if the airport can deliver mail to houses
12:34<fabis94>well i had a mail truck
12:34<fabis94>1 truck station was inside the city
12:34<fabis94>other one was at the airport
12:34<fabis94>all it did was just pick up the mail
12:34<fabis94>when it loaded it off, then it just instantly picked it all up again
12:35<fabis94>so it just carried the same mail all the time
12:35<@Alberth>ah, you need transfer orders in this case, let me find a wiki page for you
12:35<fabis94>ok thanks
12:36<@Alberth> and note the warning at the top about two-way feeders :)
12:39<fabis94>ok thanks
12:40<@Alberth>feeder systems can be a lot of fun to experiment with
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12:42<Eddi|zuHause>like i said earlier, "fun" and "annoying" can be very close together
12:44<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: you have a toddler too?
12:45<Eddi|zuHause>i can abstract from having an actual toddler quite well :p
12:47<fabis94>also is there a fast way of replacing vehicles?
12:47<fabis94>my very first vehicles are too old and i dont want to replace them one by one :/
12:47<@Alberth>same model?
12:47<@Alberth>then autorenew @ the wiki
12:48<@Alberth>else autoreplace @ the wiki :)
12:49*andythenorth has temporarily run out of things to complain about :(
12:50<andythenorth>maybe a visit to the suggestions forum will cure that
12:50<@Alberth>andythenorth: so now you must be happy :p
12:51<@Alberth>you're happy when complaining?
12:51<andythenorth>I am happiest when working out how to make things better
12:52<@Alberth>that's a common disease here, I think :p
12:59<V453000>hello, did sprite aligner get somehow influenced by the extra zoom?
12:59<V453000>it seems to show ridiculous offset values to me
13:00<@Alberth> <-- V453000 ?
13:01<V453000>ah, yes
13:01<V453000>very recent :) thank you
13:02<@Alberth> is another one
13:02<V453000>when will r23419 be available? :)
13:03<@Alberth>never, as we are at r23431 already :p
13:03<@Alberth>but tonights nightly
13:03<V453000>ok :)
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13:08<ttforumstest>fear the potential influx of TT-Forums newbies! :p
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13:09<@Terkhen>what was that?
13:09<TinoDidriksen>Someone using the web IRC client.
13:09<V453000>oh wtf :D
13:09<fabis94>btw is there a way to carry coal on a plane?
13:10<fabis94>I tried crates of goods, but it didn't work so I guess you cant carry coal like that :D
13:10<@Terkhen>fabis94: use a aircraft NewGRF set that allows refitting to coal
13:10*Terkhen does not know which ones allow that, though
13:10<@Alberth>goods is a cargo just like coal, it is not a way of packaging
13:10<frosch123>Terkhen: i think orudge added an option to tt-forums to also join #openttd with the webchat
13:11<@Alberth>but standard aircraft do not allow coal to be carried afaik
13:11<@Terkhen>oh :P
13:11<fabis94>newGTF set?
13:11<fabis94>what's that
13:11<frosch123>the extensions you get in the online content
13:11<@Alberth>click 'online contents' at the intro screen :)
13:12<fabis94>oh okay
13:13<@Alberth>and some of these extension add aircrafts
13:13<fabis94>av8 Aviators Aircraft set?
13:14<Rubidium>@base 16 10 E8
13:14<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: 232
13:16<fabis94>well I've installed the set, do I need to get a special plane? because I can't refit it to coal
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13:20<@Alberth>we don't know, try here , probably in the releases
13:21<@Alberth>but coal by aircraft does not sound very useful :p
13:21<fabis94>well I just created a new game and the newgrf shows up in it's settings, but it doesn't show up when I load an existing game
13:21<@Alberth>once you started a game, the set of NewGRFs is fixed
13:21<@Alberth>the setup becomes part of the game
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13:24<fabis94>okay thanks
13:26<@Alberth>this also holds for (most) other options and settings you can do at the intro screen, btw
13:27<@orudge>frosch123: that option was always there
13:27<@orudge>to be fair
13:27<@orudge>it just used a Java applet
13:27<@orudge>well, always as in "for the past couple of years"
13:32<Rubidium>oh... now the general error is gone again ;(
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13:43<andythenorth>Alberth: consists? :D :P
13:44<Xaroth>andythenorth: you do lots of newgrf.. how hard is it to construct a newgrf that gets rid of all them annoying statues and fountains towns build -_-
13:44<@Alberth>is that still unclear?
13:44<andythenorth>Xaroth: I don't know, haven't done any house newgrfs
13:44<andythenorth>there might even be a newgrf for that
13:45<@Alberth>Xaroth: but I just love the statues that I give to all the towns ;)
13:45<Eddi|zuHause>Xaroth: 3 lines
13:45<Eddi|zuHause>one action 8, and two action 0 to disable the two houses
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: translators * r23432 /trunk/src/lang/ (9 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: croatian - 27 changes by VoyagerOne
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: english_US - 25 changes by Rubidium
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: finnish - 27 changes by jpx_
13:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: german - 25 changes by planetmaker
13:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: korean - 1 changes by junho2813
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13:46<Eddi|zuHause>can combine those to one if they have consecutive IDs
13:46<andythenorth>Alberth: you solved consists? :o
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13:48<@Alberth>what parts are not solved then at conceptual level? it seems to me it 'just' needs implementation of the current ideas to understand where the details go wrong
13:49<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: or if you don't care about what's in between :p
13:50<andythenorth>Alberth: I got lost in the last detailed discussion of groups / consists? :D
13:51<andythenorth>maybe it's simple
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13:52<@Alberth>who said anything about groups? :) that would be a seperate (or second) problem
13:53<@Alberth>I have no overview of the state of groups
13:54*andythenorth considers reading auto-replace / auto-renew code
13:54<andythenorth>it's annoying that subtypes aren't honoured
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14:03<Zuu>TrueBrain: Is it indended that GSCompanyMode isn't active more than the next (do) command?
14:03<Zuu>I have to call it before each placement of signs in order to get them as company 0.
14:05<TrueBrain>hmm, no, it should be scope based
14:05<TrueBrain>I don't see why that wouldn't work
14:05<TrueBrain>owh, hmm .. well .. hmm , yes
14:05<TrueBrain>I have an idea
14:05<TrueBrain>will fix it (and test it) for next release Zuu :)
14:05<TrueBrain>tnx for noticing :D
14:05<TrueBrain>(DoCommand suspends, then _current_company is assigned by the controller, which is the wrong value :p)
14:06<fabis94>hey guys, the local authority of a town doesnt allow me to build stuff near him, how can I make him like me? :D
14:07<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23433 /trunk/src/table/palette_convert.h: -Fix [FS#4868]: recolouring of some animated colours from the windows palette went wrong
14:07<@Alberth>fabis94: or
14:08<@Alberth>you have to ask better questions to not have an answer at the wiki :)
14:09<Rubidium>"when will the OSX bug reports be fixed"? ;)
14:10<fabis94>oh well I did look at the first page but it didnt really explain how to do stuff
14:10<fabis94>so ill look at the second one
14:12<Zuu>TrueBrain: I try to build a bus stop as the human player (just to try out the company mode). However, I get a precondition failed although I know that both tiles are nearby. Code:
14:12<@Alberth>fabis94: oh? .... destroying town's industries, buildings, roads, tunnels and bridges all lower the company rating ... planting trees, successful bribes and providing services to the town ... increases the company rating is not a how to do stuff?
14:12<Zuu>This code live in a while loop that loops until "done" is true.
14:13*andythenorth ponders a 'gs cb' for industries
14:13<andythenorth>I need some kind of queue or array structure to store control codes in
14:13<TrueBrain>Zuu: hmm ... will investigate
14:13<TrueBrain>tbh, only tried signs, and assmed it would work :D
14:13<Zuu>And my map is filled with "try" + "front" signs that are positioned correctly to be used as input to the function.
14:13<TrueBrain>will test it better tomorrow :D
14:13<andythenorth>could probably fake a queue or array with n registers, but seems clunky. Bit masks seem unwieldy for what I have in mind
14:15<andythenorth>I also have in mind that the GS could put text on the text stack or pass string codes for use by industry
14:15<andythenorth>I could give 10 good examples for use if that is helpful...
14:16<andythenorth>"industry x closed because it's production methods are outdated"
14:17<andythenorth>"industry x closed by local authority - too much pollution"
14:17<andythenorth>"industry x increased production for reason xyz"
14:17<andythenorth>"industry x on strike - no production"
14:17<andythenorth>"industry x will close in n months if xyz not delivered"
14:18<andythenorth>"industry x will increase production if xyz delivered"
14:19<andythenorth>"industry x is closing, but will be replaced by industry y at same location"
14:19<andythenorth>"industry x will produce twice as much [stuff] due to secret production process"
14:21<andythenorth>"build object type x within n tiles of industry for a production boost"
14:21<@Alberth>aka you need GS control of production change and/or closure
14:21<andythenorth>"deliver n passengers month to town near industry x or production will fall due to shortage of workers"
14:22<andythenorth>Alberth: could be done via town registers tbh
14:22*Zuu got 22800 signs in a game
14:22<andythenorth>I'm just not sure how to fake a queue or array
14:22<andythenorth>ideally authors wouldn't have to worry which register to use, but rather pass a dword which was a control code (256 is enough), an amount (word sized) and a string code (maybe)
14:23<TrueBrain>Zuu: concratz. How does it feel? :P
14:23<andythenorth>for closure it would be relatively trivial to hook this into [FIRS] closure code
14:23<Zuu>TrueBrain: OpenTTD is slow
14:23<andythenorth>the newgrf still executes all logic, GS just passes messages
14:24<Zuu>A slight issue is that you can't pasue a GS. So it just keep adding signs until I close the game or exit OpenTTD. :-)
14:25<@Alberth>town registers? don't know what they are exactly, but it feels like going to Rome over Moscow to me
14:25<TrueBrain>Zuu: so don't post that many signs :D
14:28<andythenorth>Alberth: I can't think of a way to do it where the GS has direct control over production / closure
14:28<andythenorth>that logic is all private to the newgrf, there's no safe assumptions can be made about it
14:28*Alberth agrees
14:29<@Alberth>but why not extend the industry interface instead of this messing with town registers
14:29<andythenorth>well that is the other route yes
14:30<Rubidium>closure is easy: just bomb the factory
14:30<@Alberth>which for me is unclear whether all industries actually have a town
14:30<andythenorth>I didn't want to propose something new - town registers might be an adequate solution
14:30<andythenorth>all industries have a town afaik
14:30<andythenorth>I've never proved it though
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14:30<andythenorth>wrong key :P
14:31<Rubidium>oh shoot... DestructIndustry does put it back to it's construction stage; it doesn't completely destroy it
14:31*andythenorth wonders if an actual stack could be implemented for GS control codes to industries
14:32<andythenorth>any industry cb handling code just runs the stack. If it doesn't know what to do with a control code, it puts it back on the stack
14:33*andythenorth wonders if a dword is enough?
14:33<andythenorth>640KB is enough for everyone right?
14:33<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23434 /branches/1.1/ (8 files in 5 dirs): [1.1] -Prepare: 1.1.4
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14:40<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23435 /tags/1.1.4/ (10 files in 4 dirs): -Release: 1.1.4 down the chimney, 1.1 in a jute bag to warmer pastures (I hope)
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15:03<Eddi|zuHause>question about correctness/sensibility of this function:
15:04<frosch123>for negative a you return values between 1..b
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15:04<Eddi|zuHause>you sure?
15:05<frosch123>a = -b -> b - b%b = b - 0 = b
15:06<Eddi|zuHause>ah, i see where i went wrong
15:09<Eddi|zuHause>update (same link)
15:11<frosch123>the { would go on a new line, but the rest looks correct
15:11<frosch123>no idea where you want to use it though :p
15:11<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23436 /trunk/ (changelog.txt known-bugs.txt os/debian/changelog readme.txt): -Merge: documentation updates from 1.1
15:12<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i wanted to unify some grid code, and stumbled upon a line like "a%=3; if (a!=2 || a!=-1) ..."
15:14<frosch123>i remember that line
15:15<Eddi|zuHause>with that above function my unified line would look like "a=Mod(a, spacing+1); if (a < 2) ..."
15:17<andythenorth>thought on an explicit cb between GS and industry?
15:17<andythenorth>passing arbitrary values, maybe in a stack
15:17<andythenorth>(it's a cb on the GS by the industry)
15:18<Rubidium>heffer, blathijs: release! ;)
15:18<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: NewGRFs shouldn't "call" anything, only have "callbacks"
15:18<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: so only the GS could ask the NewGRF anything, not the other way round
15:19<andythenorth>unless there's a return value, that's of limited use for the problem I have in mind
15:20<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: so if at all, there should be a generification of cb18 (AI construction callback)
15:20<andythenorth>lets see
15:22<andythenorth>generification in which direction(s) ?
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15:25<Eddi|zuHause>that AIs and GSs can ask the newgrfs what the hell they are actually doing (like a "readme" sort of thing)
15:25<andythenorth>town control?
15:25<andythenorth>i.e. use the town storage?
15:26<Eddi|zuHause>things like "this industry has stockpiles" and "this industry runs out of ressources"
15:27<andythenorth>I keep forgetting - GS has no way of knowing what type an industry is?
15:27<andythenorth>i.e. not even the ID?
15:28<Eddi|zuHause>i'm pretty sure there are ways to get the IDs, as well as the IDs of the produced/accepted cargos
15:28<Eddi|zuHause>but IDs are meaningless, because there's a dozen different GRFs out there, and they're only going to get more
15:29<andythenorth>I'd file that under 'if you want to control things, bind tightly to one industry set'
15:29<Eddi|zuHause>that'd be an awfully short-sighted move
15:29<andythenorth>I'm pretty happy with the idea that 'any GS' + 'any industry grf' is not going to come to much
15:30<andythenorth>is there the possibility of a spec across industry grfs?
15:30<andythenorth>- there's no chance of an enforceable technical spec, that has zero mileage in it by design
15:31<andythenorth>- how about conventions for industry behaviour?
15:31<@planetmaker>you've seen the "convention" discussion about the bauxite colour?
15:32<@planetmaker>you first have to discuss whether disussing that is sensible
15:32<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause posits that it's short sighted not to
15:32<andythenorth>he might be right, he might be wrong, only one way to find out :P
15:33<andythenorth>my claim is: when writing a GS, either treat industries as black box, or write a GS tightly bound to specific version of specific newgrf
15:33<andythenorth>I don't see any middle ground at all
15:34*andythenorth is happy to be wrong
15:34<@Alberth>we'll see once GS hits trunk :)
15:34<@Alberth>good night all
15:34<Eddi|zuHause>how long since AIs are in trunk?
15:35<Eddi|zuHause>absolutely NO movement has been achieved on cb18 for trains since then
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15:35<andythenorth>what are the limitations of cb18?
15:35<Eddi|zuHause>openttd implements CB18 only for stations
15:37<andythenorth>limited :P
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15:51<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: how could such an approach allow the GS to pass arbitrary information to the industry (control codes)
15:52<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: extra callback info? (var10, var18, i believe)
15:54<andythenorth>what might be good triggers for this cb?
15:54<andythenorth>for the purpose I have in mind, it would be whenever the GS chooses to call it
15:54<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that's the point of the CB
15:55*andythenorth wonders if a stack would be essential, or over-complex
15:56<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think there's gonna be something like a stack
15:56<andythenorth>I could implement one privately, given enough registers (or town registers)
15:56<andythenorth>I just don't know if it's one
15:56<andythenorth>one / wise /s
15:57<andythenorth>GS -> newgrf communication needs to be asynchronous, due to way industry cbs work
15:57<andythenorth>which means GS might want to pass multiple control codes, to be handled appropriately by each industry cb later
15:58<Eddi|zuHause>the GS won't care about what the GRF does with the data (store it, throw it away, ...)
15:59<andythenorth>but the newgrf might want to be able to handle more than one GS-originated control code
16:00<andythenorth>due to timing of cbs...
16:00<andythenorth>suggests a private stack in the newgrf
16:00<Eddi|zuHause>that's the newgrf's problem
16:01<Eddi|zuHause>keep in mind the default behaviour would be that the GS asks about data, and the GRF does nothing
16:03<andythenorth>this only works where the newgrf supports it
16:03<andythenorth>it *might* be possible to find conventions across newgrfs
16:03<andythenorth>but it' :P
16:04<andythenorth>e.g. things like 'close', 'increase production' etc are generic
16:04<andythenorth>but other stuff is very specific to eac hnewgrf
16:07<Eddi|zuHause>doesn't the production callback already come with an external value that "suggests" what the industry should do?
16:08<@planetmaker>good night
16:08<andythenorth>allowing GS to control that value would be one easy way to provide some influence over industry
16:08<andythenorth>bye planetmaker
16:08<Eddi|zuHause>exactly. so why are we still discussing this? :p
16:10<andythenorth>it would be
16:13<andythenorth>- no control over black holes
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16:13<Eddi|zuHause>so: 1) GS should have a function industry.changeproduction({increase, decrease, close, ...}). this call is _asynchronous_, i.e the result will not be immediately. also, this is passed to the production callback, where the GRF can choose to ignore the value.
16:14<andythenorth>it's a nice idea, but of limited use, or we'd have to change newgrf spec a bit
16:14<Eddi|zuHause>2) industry NewGRFs should get CB18-like method to ask about industry properties, e.g. maximum input stockpile, maximum production rate, input conversion rate, ...
16:15<Eddi|zuHause>what else would be useful?
16:16<andythenorth>I am short on requests for this
16:16<andythenorth>I think it should be very sparse
16:16<andythenorth>if cb-18 like method can also pass values in register or var, then that's all the flexibility needed right there
16:17<andythenorth>suggestion 1) is valid, but likely to fail a lot with newgrf industry
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>what kind of data do you imagine passing there?
16:18<Eddi|zuHause>keep in mind that CB18 is intended for AIs, which likely shouldn't be able to influence the industry
16:19<Eddi|zuHause>imagine CB18 as the AI's way of reading the industry window
16:19<Eddi|zuHause>everything that you would put for the player to read there, should be accessible by CB18
16:20<Eddi|zuHause>so a "GS control" CB should likely be separate
16:22<andythenorth>that sounds fine too
16:25<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: the data I'd imagine passing is some kind of control code
16:26<andythenorth>possibly with parameters, depending if they fit in a dword or such :P
16:27<andythenorth>I can see how to do it for the cases I've thought of, but only if GS *doesn't* also want to set any strings on industry window or news
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17:32<@Terkhen>good night
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22:17<Nite_Owl>Any ye ole developer types still around ??
22:19<Nite_Owl>Always the wrong time of day for me...
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22:19<Nite_Owl>or is it "wrong time of night" ?
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22:27<Nite_Owl>Anyhoot - there is a serious game crashing flaw in tonight's compiled nightly release (r23432). Open the "available trains" drop down and as you click down the list, at some point, the game will crash. I tried this with several train sets. I suspect that the culprit might be commit 23419 as it is the only commit dealing with sprites but I could be wrong. The previously released compiled...
22:27<Nite_Owl>...nightly (23401) works correctly.
22:31<Nite_Owl>This should be easily repeatable for anyone giving it a try. Hopefully someone will read the logs at a more reasonable hour for your part of the world and see this info. I will try and be around at a more reasonable hour tomorrow should more info be needed.
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22:33<Nite_Owl>If needed I will do the Flyspray thing as a last resort but this should be easy to duplicate. Later all.
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---Logclosed Mon Dec 05 00:00:41 2011