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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-12-10

---Logopened Sat Dec 10 00:00:03 2011
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00:45<Pinkbeast>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BR_standard_class_7_70013_Oliver_Cromwell beckons this morning :-)
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01:26<@planetmaker>moin
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02:12<Lachie>morning planetmaker
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02:12<@planetmaker>hello Lachie
02:13<Lachie>just a question for anybody who knows (trying it anyway), can the additional text callback be used more than once?
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02:14<@planetmaker>in what way 'more than once'?
02:14<@planetmaker>generally you can only return one string. But you can use multi-line strings. Or strings which take parameters which in turn again are strings
02:15<Lachie>say I'm using the additional text to tell the players the nomenclature of a locomotive as well as its usage. So I have a string that says "Class Name: X-Class" and one that says "Usage: Heavy Freight" or something like that
02:15<@planetmaker>and I need something salty...
02:16<Lachie>peanuts?
02:16<@planetmaker>for breakfast? Hm...
02:16<Lachie>perhaps some hollandaise sauce?
02:16<Lachie>eggs benedict?
02:16<@planetmaker>sounds more like it :-)
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02:21<@planetmaker>wrt to your strings: easiest is of course a separate string by engine. It's specific anyway
02:35<@planetmaker>Lachie: I didn't test, but I'd try something along these lines: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/825/
02:35<Eddi|zuHause>Lachie: in CETS we do something like "Track Type: {STRING}, Usage {STRING}" and then push the appropriate strings onto the stack during the callback
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02:43<Eddi|zuHause>Lachie: CETS code looks something like this: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/826/
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02:56<@Terkhen>good morning
02:56<@planetmaker>moin Terkhen
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03:31<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23470 /trunk/src/ (7 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: move declaration of SwitchToMode to a header instead of declaring it in 6 other files
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03:49<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23471 /trunk/ (7 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: move the error related code out of misc_gui.cpp into error_gui.cpp
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04:23<Lachie>excellent. can now do tenders. I am rad.
04:25<Lachie>well, not really. still doing it the old way, but, eh.
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04:52<Wolf01>'morning
04:52<@Alberth>moin
04:52<@Terkhen>hi
04:54<Wolf01>lol I noticed two more zoom levels.. after zooming from the min zoom I said wtfhappened!?!?!
04:54<Wolf01>(I have a mouse wheel without ticks)
04:55<@planetmaker>moin all :-)
04:56<Wolf01>moin pm
04:57<@Terkhen>Wolf01: in case you find something too big or too small, you can set the allowed zoom out / zoom in at advanced settings
04:57<Wolf01>yes, I disabled the x4
05:09<@peter1138>Wolf01, you're welcome :p
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05:45<Rubidium>3
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05:57<@peter1138>oh wow
06:00<@peter1138>http://www.retronaut.co/2011/11/vintage-weight-gain-ads/
06:00<@peter1138>heh
06:04<Rubidium>the irony ;)
06:11<SpComb>hah
06:12<SpComb>although, it's a slightly different kind of weight topology that they're really talking about
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06:19<@peter1138>aye
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06:31<Zuu>If I edit an old banans upload which depend on old content, will it lose that dependency?
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06:32<Zuu>Eg. I have found out that CluelessPlus doesn't work on 1.0 since version 28 and would like to update Bananas with that, but then I fear it will lose track of which SuperLib version the AI depend on.
06:33<Zuu>OpenTTD 1.0*
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07:40<andythenorth>bonjour
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07:59<Ammler>TrueBrain: did you link the yogscast and I just miss it in your post?
07:59<Ammler>ah on the openttd frontpage :-)
07:59<@planetmaker>you miss it ^^
08:05<Ammler>seriously, that video made that rise on traffic?
08:05<Ammler>I guess, I am not able to watch it...
08:06<Ammler>planetmaker: what baseset does he use?
08:06<@planetmaker>opengfx + 32bpp
08:06<@planetmaker>chillpp
08:06<@planetmaker>iirc
08:07<@planetmaker>but why can't you watch them? It's youtube
08:09<Ammler>well, the start was quite annoying
08:09<Ammler>not a technical issue, more the people :-)
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08:11<@planetmaker>Ammler: it's imho a quite good example of how people start. Who have not yet played the game really
08:11<@planetmaker>alone that is quite valuable info :-9
08:12<Ammler>ok :-)
08:12<@Alberth>Ammler: as for OpenTTD playing technics, you won't learn anything :)
08:12<@planetmaker>indeed. There's nothing to learn from the videos concerning building
08:12<Ammler>well, I wonder, why that is so famous
08:12<@planetmaker>It's obviously a very popular gaming site.
08:12<@planetmaker>I never heart of it before, but yeah
08:13<@Alberth>but as pm says, it shows how people discover how the game works
08:13<@peter1138>yogscast have a big following in the minecraft world, i think
08:13<Ammler>it looks like he knew ttd before
08:16<@planetmaker>maybe a bit
08:16<@Alberth>I seem to remember hearing "I played with it for a couple of hours" in the video
08:20<Ammler>I already heard the word "unrealistic" :-)
08:21<@Alberth>you mean trains don't stay level when they climb a mountain???? :O
08:22<andythenorth>hmm
08:22<@Alberth>:)
08:22*andythenorth needs to draw a station building
08:22<andythenorth>:/
08:23<@planetmaker>you need to draw a fish farm :-P
08:23<andythenorth>I need to draw [stuff]
08:23<andythenorth>for i in stuff: draw(i)
08:24<@Alberth>for i in stuff: andy.draw(i) ?
08:24<@planetmaker>yeah... sounds like Zephyris building generator
08:24<@planetmaker>it works similar ;-)
08:24<@planetmaker>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=50932
08:28<andythenorth>hmm
08:28<andythenorth>time for a new CHIPS release?
08:29<@planetmaker>rather Braunkohl and Bregenwurst :-P
08:29*Alberth studies the crystal ball
08:29<Zuu>:-)
08:29<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23472 /trunk/src/ (gfx.cpp gfx_func.h strings.cpp): -Fix [FS#4877]: the monospace font broke the bootstrap GUI's ability to find a font
08:29<@Alberth>nope, no conclusive anser, I am afraid you have to decide yourself :)
08:29<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23473 /trunk/src/error_gui.cpp: -Codechange: refactor the error message data into a separate structure
08:29<@planetmaker>:-D
08:30<Eddi|zuHause>why is the Braunkohl called Gr√ľnkohl? (and vice versa)
08:30<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: it's a different species of cabage
08:30<@planetmaker>it's similar but not the same
08:31<Eddi|zuHause>but Rotkohl and Blaukraut is actually the same :)
08:31<@planetmaker>those are, yes
08:31<Eddi|zuHause>with different pH values :)
08:31<@planetmaker>maybe.
08:32<@planetmaker>but of course it its also quite well that in Braunschweig preferentially Braunkohl is offered
08:32<@planetmaker>*fits
08:33*andythenorth ponders how to set min compatible version for CHIPS
08:33<andythenorth>compatible with 0.5, not 0.4
08:33<Eddi|zuHause>"Der Rotkohl ändert seine Farbe je nach pH-Wert des Bodens."
08:36<@planetmaker>andythenorth: what was wrong with the clay tiles?
08:36<andythenorth>not needed
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08:37<andythenorth>they were made redundant by the 'quarry' tile
08:37<@planetmaker>ah
08:37<@planetmaker>thus better multi-purpose tiles :-)
08:37<andythenorth>they were disabled in 0.5 so they could be removed later ;)
08:37<andythenorth>hmm
08:37<andythenorth>that might still cause savegame explosion
08:38<andythenorth>if they were already built in a game that used 0.4, then 0.5...
08:38<andythenorth>hmm
08:38*andythenorth is drawing fruits
08:38<@planetmaker>:-)
08:38<andythenorth>if anyone knows how to better handle the tile deprecation, feel free :)
08:38*andythenorth waves at Yexo
08:38<andythenorth>there were notes in the ticket
08:38<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2689
08:38<andythenorth>I might have overlooked them :o
08:40<@planetmaker>:-D
08:40<@planetmaker>thus min compatible version is the current version
08:40<andythenorth>bleargh
08:41<Eddi|zuHause>so station tiles need a way to hide them like vehicles?
08:41*andythenorth doesn't want to repeat 'the great ISR 0.8.x savegame slaughter'
08:41<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: there's a cb to hide them in the menu...
08:41<andythenorth>hide / disable /s
08:41<andythenorth>that's all though
08:41<Eddi|zuHause>disable is not hide
08:41<andythenorth>once built, there's no way back
08:41<andythenorth>is there?
08:41<Eddi|zuHause>nope
08:42<Eddi|zuHause>"disable" means "it's in the menu, but greyed out"
08:42<Eddi|zuHause>"hide" means "it's not in the menu"
08:45<andythenorth>which is fine - but there's no way to safely remove a tile ID from a station set once it's been used in a game
08:45<@planetmaker>as written in the issue: re-define it
08:45<@planetmaker>Just keep the track status
08:45<Eddi|zuHause>exactly... you can't remove it. you need to hide it
08:48*andythenorth needs to do some archeology
08:48<andythenorth>possibly I already reused the IDs, possibly not
08:48<andythenorth>but meanwhile....fruits :P
08:51<andythenorth>can the newgrf debug show the cargo labels and classes used for a cargo?
08:52<andythenorth>from the cargo payment graph perhaps?
08:54<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23474 /trunk/ (37 files in 7 dirs): -Codechange: move the declaration error related functions to error.h
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08:58<andythenorth>the truck roadstop uses graphics for metal cans
08:59<andythenorth>are those legitimately GPL?
08:59<andythenorth>no reason to think they're not...
08:59<andythenorth>might borrow them for CHIPS
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09:04<andythenorth>also...any (easy) requests for CHIPS?
09:04<andythenorth>next version will be soon
09:07<Eddi|zuHause>haven't tried it yet
09:09<Elukka>i loves me some CHIPS
09:09<Elukka>can't think of any suggestions, though
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09:20<Eddi|zuHause>/* reserve extra space in savegame here. (currently 30 bytes) */ <-- what's that for?
09:25<@planetmaker>hysterical raisins
09:27<Eddi|zuHause>so why not remove this?
09:27<Eddi|zuHause>i.e. exchanging SL_MAX_VERSION with whatever the current SAVEGAME_VERSION is
09:28<Eddi|zuHause>166 or something
09:30<Rubidium>it's lovely to misuse those in stable releases ;)
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09:39<frosch123>removing those bytes is like removing copy constructors :p
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10:14<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23475 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: queue critical error messages, so when multiple happen you won't miss any
10:17<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23476 /trunk/src/ (9 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: use the error queue to replace switch mode error strings, again making it possible to return multiple errors
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10:41<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23477 /trunk/src/town_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#4878] (r23300): like r23342, but now for the user interface ;)
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11:04<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23478 /trunk/src/ (strings.cpp strings_func.h): -Codechange: add a method to copy string parameters *and* its raw strings
11:04<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23479 /trunk/src/error_gui.cpp: -Codechange: keep a copy of raw strings from the parameters of the error messages
11:05<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23480 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 3 dirs): -Fix [FS#4594]: replace OS error messages with internal error messages when that's possible
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11:30<@peter1138>rigs of rods' network mode is fairly useless :(
11:34<@peter1138>there it goes, it crashed :p
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11:54<CIA-6>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r23481 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 5 dirs): -Add: Function to get the CPU core count.
11:54<CIA-6>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r23482 /trunk/src/video/win32_v.cpp: -Change: [Win32] Move re-painting the window and doing palette animation into a separate thread.
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12:03<__ln__>what's the opposite of a Zug?
12:04<valhallasw>Guz.
12:04<@planetmaker>that's a strange question, __ln__.
12:05<@planetmaker>But it might Druck
12:05<@planetmaker>as there's tensile strength (Zugspannung) and compressional strength (Kompressionsfestigkeit)
12:06<@planetmaker>s/Zugspannung/Zugfestigkeit/g
12:06<__ln__>a strange question, yes. :)
12:06<valhallasw>what's the context? :-)
12:07<__ln__>i was thinking what to call those trains that are being *pushed* rather than pulled by an engine.
12:08<frosch123>then it is Schub
12:08<__ln__>i suppose such a term is not really used?
12:08<frosch123>Schubbetrieb
12:08<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: not really...
12:08<Eddi|zuHause>it's always a Zug, even if it's pushed
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12:49<andythenorth>what cargo graphics for Alcohol?
12:49<andythenorth>Crates?
12:50<Eddi|zuHause>Crates, Barrels, ...?
12:50<@planetmaker>both ;-)
12:50<andythenorth>both is possible
12:51<andythenorth>should I provide livestock graphics in CHIPS?
12:52<Eddi|zuHause>some station sets have cow/sheep/other graphics
12:53<Eddi|zuHause>but if you put it into a closed truck, there's not much to show
12:59<andythenorth>I have animal sprites from FIRS
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13:00<@planetmaker>would be nice, if they'd match
13:01<@planetmaker>could be kinda simple c&p action into the layouts
13:01<Eddi|zuHause>my researches seem to indicate that smaller animals (chicken, geese, goats, sheep) are typically transported in closed wagons, while large animals (cows) were also transported in open wagons
13:01<@planetmaker>well... as far as it's simple to copy from nml industries to nfo stations
13:02<Eddi|zuHause>about how they're kept at stations is more difficult to research
13:02<b_jonas>Eddi|zuHause: how about pigs?
13:02<@planetmaker>just let them graze
13:03<@planetmaker>it's ecological correct shipping ;-)
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13:31<@planetmaker>@ports
13:31<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
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13:40<Eddi|zuHause>am i getting old and grumpy, just because i'm tired of "i can't host a server" posts?
13:46<@Alberth>grumpy perhaps :)
13:47<@Alberth>getting 'old' is not caused by reading forum posts afaik
13:47<@planetmaker>but it's true!
13:47<@planetmaker>Everytime I read a posting there, I'm older again! ;-)
13:48<@Alberth>did you do a double blind experiment on that?
13:48<Rubidium>the biggest annoyance is that 99% of the times it's them not having configured the network right
13:48<Rubidium>then there's I'd say a 0.7% chance the masterserver is 'down'
13:48<Rubidium>and a 0.3% chance anything is really wrong with OpenTTD
13:49<@Alberth>:)
13:50<Zuu>And when they got the sever online, they want to begin with hosting something like Luukland servers.
13:51<@planetmaker>then they're out of luck, dude :-P
13:51<Zuu>Eg. something that requires work by the host to get set up, but that they expect to just download.
13:51<CIA-6>OpenTTD: translators * r23483 /trunk/src/lang/ (7 files): (log message trimmed)
13:51<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:51<CIA-6>OpenTTD: catalan - 14 changes by arnau
13:51<CIA-6>OpenTTD: czech - 8 changes by ReisRyos
13:51<CIA-6>OpenTTD: english_US - 13 changes by Rubidium
13:51<CIA-6>OpenTTD: finnish - 13 changes by jpx_
13:51<CIA-6>OpenTTD: french - 13 changes by glx
13:54*andythenorth considers using tiny url in readme
13:54<Rubidium>andythenorth: don't ;)
13:54<Rubidium>so ugly ;)
13:55<andythenorth>yeah, because this is so elegant :P http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=53348
13:57<Rubidium>I don't trust tiny urls
13:57<andythenorth>we should run our own
13:57<Rubidium>there's no way to see where you'll end up
13:58<andythenorth>http://www.helpfultechnology.com/helpful-blog/2011/08/my-name-is-url/
13:58<andythenorth>PHP
13:58<andythenorth>iirc
13:58<andythenorth>blearch
13:58<Zuu>In what context is STR_CONFIG_ERROR_INVALID_GRF_SYSTEM used? I can't find it in a newly updated copy of trunk.
13:58<andythenorth>also, now we have a font, can I word wrap in readme? Or still a bad idea?
13:58<Rubidium>Zuu: check settings.cpp
13:59<Zuu>Which needs compilation to be created right?
14:00<Rubidium>no
14:00<Eddi|zuHause>no, that's settings.h
14:00<Eddi|zuHause>which is generated from settings.ini
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14:08<Zuu>Hmm, any reason why "{WHITE}Error with the configuration file..." doesn't say that there is an error in the config file? Eg. can that message appear also when there is not an error in the config file?
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14:12<Rubidium>all the strings added today have to do with brokeness found when loading the config file
14:13<Rubidium>and I don't see how saying something is wrong with the configuration file can mean that something is wrong with something completely else
14:14<Zuu>If I in the translation write that there is an error in the config file, then I'm more blaming the config file that the English original text.
14:15<Eddi|zuHause>so you want an explanation for the tiny sematical difference between "with" and "in"?
14:15<Zuu>well, I was wondering if going for "in" would not hurt to do.
14:15<Rubidium>well, in one case the config file could have been right but broken by changing a NewGRF
14:16<Rubidium>so then the question is whether there is something wrong in the config file
14:16<Rubidium>though there's something wrong with the configuration
14:17<Zuu>I think I'll go with "with" and then have to use "problem" instead of "error" because "error" and "with" doesn't mix well in swedish.
14:18<Rubidium>the art of translation is to create a string that is understood in the same way as the english string, not one that is a word-by-word translation, or that translating it back to English would yield the exact same string
14:18<frosch123>andythenorth: what was your testcase for autoreplace with subtypes?
14:18<frosch123>i assume heqs tip
14:19<andythenorth>frosch123: yup
14:19<andythenorth>trams
14:19<frosch123>specific trams?
14:19<andythenorth>0-4-0 > 0-6-0
14:20<andythenorth>it's possible I've got stupidities with my lead vehicle
14:20<andythenorth>but I had to fix all that recently to placate ottd error messages, so I think/hope not
14:20<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23484 /trunk/src/ (depot_gui.cpp order_gui.cpp vehicle_gui.cpp window_gui.h): -Fix [FS#4770]: in case you already have orders, ignore the vehicles when adding an extra order
14:21<Eddi|zuHause>my last problem with subtypes was that they weren't copied on clonung
14:21<Eddi|zuHause>*cloning
14:21<Eddi|zuHause>e.g. the "realistic" liveries of GermanRV
14:22<andythenorth>trams clone ok
14:22<frosch123>http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/diffs/checkallarticpartsforsubtype.diff <- works fine for me now
14:23<andythenorth>frosch123: I'll test in a bit
14:25<frosch123>also test autorefit if you can :)
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14:28<frosch123>do the trams support autorefit?
14:28<frosch123>and if, which cargos?
14:31<andythenorth>I enabled autorefit flag for all trams recently
14:31<andythenorth>but it doesn't appear to work
14:31<andythenorth>don't know why
14:36<frosch123>ah, i see, autorefit has trouble with articulated parts
14:37*andythenorth suggests rv-wagons :P
14:38<andythenorth>as a way to not solve that problem :P
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14:51<frosch123>haha, autorefit allows to select the subtype. so if i select a subtype with different vehicle lengths i get the "newgrf is causing trouble" error :p
14:52<frosch123>oh, and it even causes trouble :/
14:52<@planetmaker>:S
14:53<frosch123>you can crash ottd just by setting up unfortunate autorefit orders :p
14:53<frosch123>send a tram to a roadstop and let it autorefit to a different length
14:54<frosch123>then it crashes because the roadstop is suddenly occupied by a longer vehicle, which makes the quantum effects assert :)
14:54<frosch123>solution: the grf must disallow autorefit to different length
14:54<frosch123>so, the popup is actually right \o/
14:54<@planetmaker>hm
14:54<Rubidium>even worse, it messes with the accounting of how full the road stop is, so all vehicle spreading over the road stop will be broken
14:55<frosch123>Rubidium: yes, that part asserts
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14:55<frosch123>src/roadstop.cpp:283: void RoadStop::Entry::Leave(const RoadVehicle*): Assertion `this->occupied >= 0' failed
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14:55<frosch123>the roadstop is left by a longer vehicle than it was entered :)
14:55<@planetmaker>wb andythenorth :-)
14:55<@planetmaker>I've appetite for CHIPS meanwhile ;-)
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15:03<__ln__>http://gizmodo.com/5866646/motorola-wins-europe+wide-sales-ban-against-ios-devices
15:06<andythenorth>frosch123: that smells to me like refits that change length are evil :P
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15:06<andythenorth>but the spec allows that
15:06<andythenorth>what to do what to do
15:07<andythenorth>planetmaker: wrt chips, I'm about to tag :)
15:07<frosch123>andythenorth: implement the refit callback, and disallow autorefit to different length
15:07<andythenorth>frosch123: agreed
15:07<andythenorth>but
15:07<andythenorth>generally it is very hard to make a valid grf that will crash ottd
15:07<frosch123>autorefit-on-demand picks the right subtype btw
15:08<andythenorth>in this case it appears to be trivial to make a grf that is both valid, and that will crash ottd
15:08<frosch123>andythenorth: ottd does displays an error message and pauses the game
15:08<frosch123>it only crashes on unpause
15:08<andythenorth>still
15:08<frosch123>so, it blames the grf that it might crash :p
15:08<andythenorth>but the grf complies with the spec...
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15:08<andythenorth>disallow autorefit when cb36 is used
15:09<frosch123>pff, don't argue that the specs are not detailed enough
15:09<andythenorth>the specs are not detailed enough
15:09<andythenorth>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0/Vehicles/RoadVehicles#Miscellaneous_flags_.281C.29
15:10<frosch123>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Callbacks#Wagon_length_.2811.29
15:10<frosch123>the callback result may change only when whole vehicle chain is inside a depot
15:11<frosch123>and that does also hold for grfv8 :p
15:11<andythenorth>does that hold for cb36 as well?
15:11<frosch123>we need to copy that to cb36
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15:11<frosch123>is heqs grfv8?
15:11<andythenorth>not yet
15:11<andythenorth>planned
15:12<andythenorth>once I close current bugs, next version after that will be grf v8
15:12<andythenorth>there's quite a bit to change
15:13<@planetmaker>frosch123: it's new that the CB changing outside the depot stops the game
15:13<@planetmaker>?
15:14<frosch123>no
15:14<frosch123>changing length of trains when outside the depot might make them fall of the track when reversing
15:14<frosch123>changing length of rv crashes when they change length inside a roadstop
15:15<frosch123>i.e. esp. easy to trigger with autorefit
15:16<andythenorth>hmm
15:16<andythenorth>why is it possible to use cb36 to change length outside of depot then?
15:16<andythenorth>there can't be a valid case for it
15:17<andythenorth>I guess it's not possible if ottd traps it
15:20<frosch123>it is not possible
15:21<andythenorth>another bug for HEQS in that case :P
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15:59<frosch123>hmm, should gs be allowed to start new companies? like non-player characters? :p
15:59<Eddi|zuHause>imho yes
16:00<Eddi|zuHause>e.g. start the player's company in the scenario-preparing phase
16:00<frosch123>can it choose which ai to attach? including itself?
16:00<Eddi|zuHause>no, only the pre-configured AI slots
16:00<Eddi|zuHause>(which may be predefined in the scenario)
16:00<CIA-6>OpenTTD: frosch * r23485 /trunk/src/economy.cpp: -Fix: Autorefit failed if the first part of an articulated vehicle did not carry any cargo.
16:03<andythenorth>"just" give gs access to every gui control
16:03<andythenorth>then it can do what it likes :)
16:04-!-Torrasque [534e25d9@ircip4.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd
16:07<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23486 /trunk/ (3 files in 2 dirs): -Fix (r22764): 3 for the price of 1: fix up ScriptTile::GetTownAuthority() (tnx to Torrasque for reporting)
16:09<CIA-6>OpenTTD: frosch * r23487 /trunk/src/ (4 files): -Change/Fix: Make autoreplace, autorenew, cloning and autorefit check all articulated parts of a vehicle to find a shared cargo subtype.
16:14<frosch123>wow... if you check all your checkouts from time to time, it is amazing how much of it you can just trash :p
16:14<andythenorth>hmm
16:15<@planetmaker>you mean patches having become obsolete or thoroughly outdated?
16:15<@planetmaker>yeah :-P
16:15<frosch123>yeah, either already rewritten and even committed, or fixed otherwise
16:15<@peter1138>some of mine never see the light of day
16:15<@peter1138>like say roadtypes...
16:16<@peter1138>multistop docks
16:19<Rubidium>yeah, I can remove the yaim checkout ;)
16:23<@peter1138>44 newgrfs ... o_O
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>wasn't there once a limit of like 32?
16:24<@peter1138>32 open files i think
16:24<@planetmaker>it's 64 iirc
16:24<frosch123>i downloaded all content from bananas, but i cannot activate all of them :(
16:24<@peter1138>subtract the required grfs and it was more like 27?
16:24<@peter1138>hmm, maybe less
16:24<frosch123>i can even only pick a single heightmap or scenario at once :(
16:24<@peter1138>frosch123, sickening
16:25*planetmaker gives a condolences cookie to frosch
16:26*andythenorth has about 290 newgrfs :(
16:26<andythenorth>don't know why
16:26<@peter1138>not all active though
16:26<Rubidium>only 290?
16:26<frosch123>indeed, only 290?
16:27<@planetmaker>I cleaned up (moved old folders) when the directories were renamed
16:27<@planetmaker>I guess I'm at ~500 already again
16:27<Rubidium>come back when the number has at least 4 digits before the comma
16:28<@peter1138>before?
16:29<frosch123>we should add the hg repo into action14, so ottd can checkout the right revision and compile it
16:29<frosch123>:p
16:30<@planetmaker>:-)
16:31<Eddi|zuHause>if you have digits after the comma, you're probably in trouble :p
16:31<Eddi|zuHause>or in britain :)
16:31<@planetmaker>:-P
16:32<andythenorth> it's not called a decimal *point* for nothing :P
16:32<andythenorth>nor comma thousands
16:37<Eddi|zuHause>yes, it's a decimal comma.
16:38-!-andrew2 [andrew@81-0-99-74.pool.invitel.hu] has joined #openttd
16:39<andrew2>helo
16:39<andrew2>anyone here ?
16:39-!-andythenorth is now known as anyone
16:39<andrew2>i need a bit of help.
16:39<andrew2>i can not join any multiplayer game over the internet.
16:39<andrew2>find server button does nothing at all.
16:40<andrew2>and the connection is set to internet.
16:40<frosch123>check your firewall then
16:40<+michi_cc>@ports
16:40<@DorpsGek>michi_cc: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
16:40<frosch123>and allow ottd to connect to the internet
16:40-!-anyone is now known as andythenorth
16:40<andrew2>i have windooze firewall disabled, and in router settings i em in DMZ.
16:40<frosch123>can you use the online content?
16:40<andrew2>allso i can join the last server i visited.
16:40<andrew2>yes i can.
16:41<@planetmaker>did you press 'search for servers'?
16:41<andrew2>yes i did.
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16:41<frosch123>so for some reason the stuff from the masterserver does not reach your side, or your side does not reach the masterserver
16:42<frosch123>i think it uses udp for that
16:42<andrew2>i do not know, i can download newgrf files and other things from the online content section.
16:43<andrew2>i can even jin the last visited server too.
16:43<andrew2>but find server button does nothing.
16:43<andrew2>no new server gets listed.
16:43<+michi_cc>online content and actually joining a server uses TCP, but the find server function uses UDP.
16:44<+michi_cc>So your route/firewall/something else seems to block UDP packets.
16:44<andrew2>so the solution would be ?
16:44<andrew2>i see.
16:45<andrew2>but my computer has ip addres 192.168.1.100 as ip. (i did check, ipconfig) and in router settings i em set to DMZ host.
16:45<andrew2>supposedly anything can reach me.
16:45<@planetmaker>192.168.x.y is a private address
16:46<@planetmaker>for local networks only
16:46<andrew2>correct. that is what my computer gets from the router.
16:46<@planetmaker>doesn't mean it works reverse
16:46<andrew2>and my windows firewall had been disabled too.
16:46<@planetmaker>and the router's FW for incoming connections?
16:47<Rubidium>I'm getting servers listed like it should be done
16:47<andythenorth>frosch123: auto-replace works for me :)
16:47<andythenorth>I pulled trunk
16:47<Rubidium>so given you said that the content downloading works the connection to the main server is okay as well
16:48<andrew2>i ahve not touched any router settings, and ottd was working properly few days ago.
16:48<Rubidium>you also said you can join another server, I'm assuming from in-game, so udp over port 3979 works as well
16:48<andrew2>correct.
16:48<Rubidium>which leaves udp over port 3978 being blocked somewhere 'near' you
16:49<andrew2>is there any tool i could use to test if i can ping this port ?
16:49<Rubidium>too bad it's rarely ever possible to see what the router sends/receives over the internet connected port
16:49<andrew2>to see if it is blocked or not.
16:50<andrew2>how could i check ?
16:50<Rubidium>I'm not aware of such tools (via a website)
16:51<andrew2>it can be any kind of tool, does not need to be a website.
16:51<Rubidium>I think nmap can do it
16:52<andrew2>okay, i download it.
16:52<Rubidium>but you need to do that from a remote host as checking the remote side config of your router from the internal network is in 99% of the cases impossible (routers rarely route traffic back into the local network via the external network)
16:52<andrew2>a moment pls.
16:53<andrew2>okay, what if i give you my WAN side ip ? can you ping me ?
16:53<andrew2>81.0.99.74
16:53<@planetmaker>ping would be another port...
16:54<@planetmaker>but yes
16:56<andrew2>http://canyouseeme.org/
16:56<andrew2>can this be used to check if the port is accepting communication ?
16:57<Rubidium>that uses TCP, so no
16:57<andrew2>i see
16:57<andrew2>so basicly there is no way to check if it is blocked or not ?
16:57<Rubidium>it's saying that it can't determine whether it's opened or not
16:57<Rubidium>(it = nmap)
16:58<andrew2>i see.
16:58<andrew2>strange.
16:58<Rubidium>but if OpenTTD isn't running and hasn't opened those ports that's not that odd
16:59<andrew2>but i have ottd running.
17:00<Rubidium>trying searching and refreshing the server that is in your server list
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17:00<andrew2>refreshing a server's status works.
17:00<andrew2>current date did get updated.
17:00<andrew2>find server button did not do anything.
17:00<Rubidium>oh shoot...
17:00<andrew2>connection was set to intenet.
17:01<Rubidium>it's using a random port to connect from
17:01<@Terkhen>good night
17:01<Rubidium>and receives data on
17:02<@peter1138>hm
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17:05<andrew3>okay,
17:05<andrew3>so i reset my connection.
17:05<andrew3>still nothing.
17:05<andrew3>i do not get it.
17:05<@peter1138>"luukland trainset ginger cool"
17:05<@peter1138>Luukland Trainset 1.3, Graphics and new trains by Michal Blunck
17:06<@peter1138>mmmhmm
17:06<Rubidium>andrew3: the only thing that is left to do is trace the packets as they are sent over the network (including the external port of the router)
17:06<Rubidium>then you can see if something goes out or comes back at all
17:06<andrew3>and can youhelp me to carry this out ?
17:07<Rubidium>sadly enough not really
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17:09<andrew3>lets see.. probably all advertised servers are listed somewhere, probably thats where i em unable to connect.
17:09<andrew3>do you know the ip addres of that server ?
17:09<andrew3>i could possibly try to ping that first.
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17:10<andrew3>as i can join an interet game, i would assume that part is okay, only the server list does not get here.
17:12<Rubidium>andrew3: master.openttd.org
17:12<Rubidium>however, it's the same server as the content server
17:12<Rubidium>so if you can reach the content server, you can reach the server with the game list as well
17:12<andrew3>strange, as i can reach the content server, and even download.
17:13<andrew3>that updates, and i did try, and i was able to download too.
17:14<andrew3>yep, i did it again. i downloaded some AI.
17:17<@peter1138>hmm, "CHIPS tiles" appears to rename the default class.
17:17<andythenorth>that's lame :P
17:17<andythenorth>and unintended
17:17<@peter1138>might be i have too many stations loaded :p
17:18<@peter1138>yeah it is
17:18<@peter1138>shouldn't be renamed then. hmm.
17:18<@peter1138>or
17:18<@peter1138>we just increase the class limit
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17:18<@peter1138>i know why the limit is 32
17:18<@peter1138>do you?
17:19<Eddi|zuHause>i'm sure it's map bits :p
17:19<@peter1138>nope
17:19<+glx>andrew3: so somehow UPD packets sent by master server are drop somewhere between your computer and master server
17:19<+glx>*UDP
17:21<+michi_cc>peter1138: Max number of dropdown items or something equally silly? :)
17:21<@peter1138>michi_cc, exactly tha t:)
17:21<@peter1138>a long-gone limit
17:21<Eddi|zuHause>actually that was 2nd on my list :)
17:21<andrew3>can happen, but does not the online content system uses UDP to list available content ?
17:21<Rubidium>that uses TCP
17:21<andrew3>i see.
17:22<andrew3>i was thinking TCP was used for downloading only.
17:23<andrew3>any reason why would UDP packets from master server get dropped ?
17:23<andrew3>i have no firewall, nor anything else active.
17:24<+glx>could be your ISP, or your router (some are silly ones)
17:24<+michi_cc>There are a lot of routers with somewhat broken UDP implementations out there, you just might be unlucky.
17:25<andrew3>but it did work a few days before, and nothing have changed, expect ottd does not list servers.
17:26<+glx>ISP is still a valid candidate :)
17:27<+glx>they often think internet is only http on port 80
17:27<andrew3>3979 works, and is UDP, as i can join a server, and play ottd online on that single server.
17:28<+glx>when you join a server you use TCP
17:28<andrew3>mm i see... :(
17:28<frosch123>http://www.openttd.org/en/servers <- well, maybe just use that list to pick a server, and hope it fixes itself in a few days :)
17:30<andrew3>by any chanse, can it be my brother doing some torrent downloading be the reason ?
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17:33<Eddi|zuHause>only if it's really choking the connection
17:34<+glx>possible if he doesn't limit upload
17:34<Eddi|zuHause>try limiting upload and download to something around 80% of your bandwidth
17:34<andrew3>hmmm.. i kindof see..but my connection is still fast, so i do not think so. i will unplugg his cable for a short time.
17:34<andrew3>will see the reaction.
17:35<+glx>:)
17:36<Eddi|zuHause>haha :p
17:37<andrew3>well, it did not help, but i alllmost got killed.
17:37<andrew3>but cleverly i lockt my door prior unplugging the cable.
17:38<Eddi|zuHause>that's pretty much the expected result then :)
17:38<andrew3>yup, 100% confident only my cable remained plugged in.
17:40<andrew3>one last shot.
17:41<andrew3>when the master server sends the info, it sends it to my ip addres, UDP port 3979 ?
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17:43<andythenorth>bye
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17:43<Rubidium>andrew3: no, it sends it to the port that sent it to the masterserver
17:43<Rubidium>which is randomly allocated by the Os
17:43<+michi_cc>No, your computer allocates a random source port and sends a UDP packet to the master server at 3978. In between, your router rewrites the random source port into some other random source port to track NAT connections. The master server then sends a reply to your public IP from 3978 to the rewritten port which your router hopefully turns back into the source port and forwards the packet to you.
17:45<+michi_cc>Peer-to-peer networking protocols often open lots of UDP connections which means that it is easy to full up that port translation table. Some routers don't properly clear that table until you reboot the router.
17:45<andrew3>okay. that is very helpfull.
17:45<andrew3>keeping in mind that my brother uses utorrent least 25 to 30 hours a day that may be the issue.
17:45<andrew3>will reboot the router now.
17:45<andrew3>be back in a minute.
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17:47<andrew2>well, it allso did not help-
17:47<andrew2>one very last thing i can try is to reset the router to full factory deafult.
17:48<andrew2>allso i will try to enable the windoooze firewall and see if it warns me for ottd attempting to open a port.
17:50<andrew2>intresting, windooze did not cry about ottd.
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17:53<andrew>well, factory defaults did not work.
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17:54<andrew>still no servers listed.
17:54<andrew>this ain't good :(
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18:02<Wolf01>'night
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18:33<frosch123>hmm, 3 weeks of grfcrawler left?
18:35<SpComb>howso?
18:36<frosch123>it was announced that it will be shut down till the end of the year
18:36<frosch123>at least i did not heard anything about the shutdown being canceled
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18:53<@Yexo><andrew3> keeping in mind that my brother uses utorrent least 25 to 30 hours a day that may be the issue. <- he has interesting days
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22:20<Ardonel>evening all
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---Logclosed Sun Dec 11 00:00:09 2011