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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-12-12

---Logopened Mon Dec 12 00:00:25 2011
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00:44<Moussekateer>I have a (hopefully) simple question about running a server
00:45<Moussekateer>I'm running a dedicated server for my friends and I and there is one aspect I am stuck on. If the server dies for whatever reason, how would I get it to reload the game state before it died instead of generating a new map?
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01:06<Rubidium>Moussekateer: -g <nameofsavegame>
01:07<Moussekateer>Rubidium: Ah thank you very much
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04:32<@planetmaker> <-- hach. That was fun
04:36<@peter1138>""proper proportions are attainable in pixelart and unattainable in 3D-rendered art"
04:36<@peter1138>what ???
04:37<Eddi|zuHause>sure :p
04:37<Eddi|zuHause>reply that the only real way is to use cubi... i mean voxels
04:38*MNIM whacks Eddi|zuHause on the head
04:38<Eddi|zuHause>well, it is BOTH pixel art AND 3D :p
04:39<@planetmaker>3D is so yesterday. 4D is the future
04:39<@peter1138>"looks ridiculous when you zoom out" ... and those stubby vehicles don't look ridiculous when zoomed in?
04:39<@peter1138>we have 4D
04:40<@planetmaker>though granted, OpenTTD has only 1D
04:40<@peter1138>The fourth dimension: motion_counter
04:41<MNIM>lol, if you were to do OTTD in proper scale trains would be a factor ten longer, and train lines hundred, or more
04:41<@peter1138>1 Deluxesional?
04:41<@planetmaker>OpenTT_D_ ;-)
04:41<@peter1138>MNIM, quite
04:41<MNIM>now that'd be a challenge to play
04:41<@planetmaker>MNIM: and towns would be larger than a 2048**2 map
04:42<@peter1138>not all towns
04:42<MNIM>well yeah, the big ones.
04:42<@peter1138>hmm, what tile scale was that?
04:42<@peter1138>at 25m, then it's 51km, which would be a bloody big city
04:43<@planetmaker>51km would be like the European capitals
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04:43<MNIM>that being said, I wouldn't object to having towns with bigger blocks. it's kind of odd to have a railway park in a city that's as big as the city itself
04:43<namad7>which rolelr coaster ycoon game was best, and is there a roller coaster tycoon open project remake? also... does open TTD have a tutorial? i'd like to play but its so confusing i'm getting confused
04:44<Eddi|zuHause>does "european capitals" mean "capitals of europe" or "capitals in europe"?
04:44<@peter1138>capitals in europe
04:45<Eddi|zuHause>"capitals of europe" would be brussels, luxemburg and straßburg
04:45<MNIM>well, that's what they claim, yes.
04:45<@peter1138>but i still doubt they're 51km in length/width
04:45<MNIM>but we all know that europe's true capitals are berlin and paris.
04:46<Eddi|zuHause>that's 1/3 of the way from here to berlin
04:46<MNIM>peter: paris counts, I think
04:46<@peter1138>paris isn't that big
04:46<MNIM>that is, including it's suburbs.
04:47<@peter1138>it's still a silly scale :)
04:47<@planetmaker>@calc sqrt(891)
04:47<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 29.8496231132
04:47<Eddi|zuHause>@calc sqrt(892)
04:47<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 29.8663690461
04:47<@planetmaker>well, 30
04:47<MNIM>paris urban area covers 2845km2
04:48<MNIM>metro is even bigger.
04:48<@peter1138>@calc sqrt(2845)
04:48<@DorpsGek>peter1138: 53.3385414124
04:48<@peter1138>just ;)
04:48<MNIM>@calc sqrt(17175)
04:48<@DorpsGek>MNIM: 131.053424221
04:48<@planetmaker>@calc sqrt(1572)
04:48<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 39.6484552032
04:48<MNIM>131 across for the metropolitan.
04:48<@planetmaker>London is 40km
04:48<@peter1138>anyway, i'd like to see 32bpp ez sprites done in the correct dimensions
04:48<@peter1138>apparently it "looks ridiculous when you zoom out"
04:49<MNIM>that's my reference anyway :P
04:49<@peter1138>ttd vehicles look ridiculous? heh
04:49<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: isn't that just a matter of cropping correctly?
04:49<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: not for the vehicles
04:50<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, cropping?
04:50<@planetmaker>their dimensions are differently weighted than the TTD vehicles
04:50<@planetmaker>and houses are very much inconsistent, too
04:50<@peter1138> < you saw that right?
04:51<Eddi|zuHause>i don't check the 32bpp forum
04:52<@peter1138>it's blatantly obviously wrong when compared like that :)
04:52<@peter1138>as planetmaker says, toyland maybe :)
04:52<@peter1138>i have no idea how well those tall sprites will work with bridges/tunnels though
04:52<@planetmaker>I love actually their looks. They're very nice. For toyland
04:52<@planetmaker>indeed, workings with tunnels & co will need looking at
04:52<MNIM>meh, lets face it, dimensions are always fucked in games, especially strategy games.
04:53<Eddi|zuHause>but since they're 3D models, can't you just adjust like 3 parameters and get useful results?
04:53<@planetmaker>not sure
04:53<@peter1138>not really
04:53<@planetmaker>one would need to ask them
04:53<@peter1138>that particular one needs to have stuff added in the middle
04:54<namad7>does open TTD have a tutorial? i'd like to play but its so confusing i'm getting confused
04:54<@peter1138>and the be stretched to be a bit wider
04:54<@peter1138>also there's too much contrast in the lighting
04:54<Eddi|zuHause>hm, ok.
04:54<@peter1138>the original sprite looks like an engine, albeit a bit shorter
04:55<@peter1138>the 32bpp one looks... stubby, brio-toy like
04:55<@planetmaker>namad7: not really. There are tutorial pages on the wiki, though. Did you check them?
04:55<Eddi|zuHause>32bpp needs a project manager. a BIG one.
04:55<@planetmaker>And there's various videos on youtube
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04:55<@planetmaker>a 'BIG' one, Eddi|zuHause?
04:55<@planetmaker>I thought it had a 'project manager'?
04:56<@peter1138>even brio do long ones
04:57<@peter1138>heh, brio shinkansen :)
04:58<MNIM>hmmmh, that reminds me, I need to look for kid's toys some time this (next) year...
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05:07<@planetmaker>oh. :-P
05:08<@peter1138>and PM's response is precisely why minecraft-style infinite worlds won't work :)
05:08<@peter1138>as much as i'd love it...
05:10<@planetmaker>you mean RB's response?
05:12<@peter1138>yes, that one
05:17*peter1138 smirks at pikka
05:18<@peter1138>or with, i suppose
05:25<SpComb>minecraft has some very explicity block-length limits for what area it runs game state in around the player :)
05:27<@peter1138>SpComb, yes
05:27<SpComb>monsters only spawn 64 block away etc
05:30<@peter1138>hmm, blitter bug
05:31<@peter1138>opengfx rail fences at 2x zoom out..
05:31<@peter1138>appear to be doubled up
05:31<Eddi|zuHause>have the black lines in 4x zoom been fixed yet?
05:31<@peter1138>ages ago
05:34<@peter1138>it's a local bug :p
05:38<@peter1138>how can i have persistent tar files?
05:42<@planetmaker>aren't they?
05:43<@peter1138>i mean give them a file slot
05:44<@peter1138>spriteloader/png.cpp uses PNG_SLOT
05:46<@peter1138>looks like major work :(
05:47<@peter1138>hmm, no, can't be
05:47<@peter1138>because newgrfs are in tars...
05:54<@peter1138>hmm, wind sock animation looks too fast
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06:02<@planetmaker>nah, we just have strong winds
06:02<@planetmaker>just look how angled the smoke of the power plant is
06:03<@peter1138>in a different direction :D
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06:12<@peter1138>hehe, if only...
06:22<Noldo>let me guess, it uses random?
06:22<@peter1138>those effects are vehicles
06:23<@peter1138>thus they had better be synchronised between client & server
06:23*peter1138 ponders having a go at look-ahead path reservations
06:24<Noldo>does that also mean they are generated all over the map?
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06:25<Noldo>that sounds as brilliant as the way the lift animations
06:25<@peter1138>lift animations are fine
06:25<Noldo>they aren't in the tile loop?
06:25<@peter1138>they're bit hardcoded
06:26<@peter1138>no, they're done in the tile animation system
06:27<@peter1138>they're a bit to fast for tileloop :)
06:27<Noldo>but is the state stored in the map anyway?
06:28<@peter1138>the state has to be stored somewhere
06:28<Noldo>it's not really game critical, is it?
06:28<@peter1138>not especially
06:29<@planetmaker>questionable though whether it really is essential to have them synced. Can NewGRFs read their state?
06:29<@peter1138>they don't need to be, no
06:29<@planetmaker>Or whether we could make them pure eye candy w/o gameplay effect
06:29<@peter1138>but you'd need to introduce a new system just for unsynchronised animations
06:30<@peter1138>newgrf animations *can* affect things
06:30<@planetmaker>also yes :-)
06:30<@peter1138>at least i think :)
06:31<@planetmaker>they're varaction2 - accessible, thus could e.g. influence industry acceptance or production or vehicle properties
06:31<SpComb>oh noes, my lifts are in different positions on different clients
06:31<@peter1138>it bugs me enough that the clouds in minecraft aren't synchronised
06:31<@peter1138>mainly because people try to use them to give directions...
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06:32<@peter1138>"place that bus stop in front of the building with the lift at the top"
06:33<@planetmaker>now, giving me the idea of sync'ed / unsync'ed animation would be interesting for NewGRFs, too
06:33<@planetmaker>that unsynced just would need to be unexposed to variables
06:34<@peter1138>you could make effect vehicles unsynced too
06:34<@peter1138>need to move them out of the vehicle pool
06:34<@peter1138>originally we had 1024 vehicles allocated in the pool for effect vehicles
06:35<@peter1138>and they didn't need to be synced
06:37<@planetmaker>would make possibly sense. Could help move them in a separate thread ;-)
06:37<@peter1138>oh, i found my de-global fio routines
06:37<@peter1138>if you only added effect vehicles for things on screen then there wouldn't be many
06:39<@planetmaker>I'm not sure... but what do sparks, fume and smoke influence?
06:40<@peter1138>viewports :)
06:42<@peter1138>hmm, r19896. quite old now.
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07:07<@peter1138>pbs is hard :p
07:09<@Yexo><planetmaker> that unsynced just would need to be unexposed to variables <- if it's unexposed to variables the grf can't do anything with it, so you have no animation
07:09<@Yexo>however you could expose it only when graphics are drawn, ie cb 0
07:09<@Yexo>that cb is desync-safe, so you can expose it there
07:10<@planetmaker>I thought of a way via (adv.) action1 to supply n graphics for n animation frames. But yes, cb0 might be more interesting
07:10<@peter1138>tmwftlb, imho
07:12<@peter1138>yapp still works with out yapf, right?
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07:16<@peter1138>yet another pbs patch
07:16<@peter1138>aka pbs in openttd
07:17<Sacro>I miss HackyKid
07:19<@peter1138>heh, even
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07:28<@peter1138>cool, i reserved at least 10 tiles
07:28<@peter1138>uncool, the signal state is red :D
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07:35<Eddi|zuHause>we need "yellow" signals...
07:40<lugo>yellow = "limit to speed of train ahead"?
07:42<Eddi|zuHause>yes, basically
07:43<Eddi|zuHause>"real" signals differentiate that quite a bit, though
07:44<Eddi|zuHause>there's different things for "next signal is red", "next signal is green, but has speed limit 40/60km/h", "next signal is green, but has speed limit 100km/h" and stuff
07:44<lugo>well _that_ would be over the top :)
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07:44<lugo>i mean implementing that
07:45<Eddi|zuHause>well, you need feedback from the train to the signal anyway, so if the speed limit is known from the reservation, it might as well be displayed (varaction2 for signals!)
07:54<@peter1138>bah, having non-pbs tiles is a spanner in the works
07:54<@peter1138>why did we keep them? :S
07:54<@peter1138>tiles? signals
07:55<Eddi|zuHause>just treat a reserved tile like a train were on it
07:55<Eddi|zuHause>i.e. turn all block signals red
07:55<Eddi|zuHause>(except the reserved one)
08:02<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: didn't we once have yellow signals? Or was that a patch?
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08:04<@peter1138>see, i'm on that "train stopping distance" thing
08:04<@peter1138>which "just" needs the path finder to reserve at least X tiles
08:04<@peter1138>instead of to the first signal
08:05<@planetmaker>TrueBrain, that was a patch 'advance signals'. iirc by michi
08:05<@peter1138>then reserved signals become green
08:05<TrueBrain>I remember yellow triangles, blue circles and green rectangles or something similar?
08:05<@peter1138>seens simple but there are so many details
08:05<@planetmaker>that's different. that's route markers
08:05<TrueBrain>where you could set speed limits on them?
08:06<Eddi|zuHause>no, but you could sort trains by max speed
08:06<@planetmaker>No. See for what I thought of
08:06<Eddi|zuHause>but there also was a very old "yellow signals" patch
08:07<+michi_cc>peter1138: You know ?
08:07<@peter1138>2009 :)
08:08<TrueBrain>michi_cc is also becoming a true: "I have a patch for that" :D
08:09<@planetmaker>I've yet have to recall himself saying that, though ;-)
08:12<@peter1138>when can we have articulated RVs doing that? :p
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08:12<@peter1138>without the sprite ordering glitches
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08:14<TrueBrain>that was what I meant :)
08:14<Eddi|zuHause>bah... 11MB
08:15<@peter1138>giant animated gif, sorry
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08:16<@peter1138>TrueBrain, that's possible with railtypes now ;)
08:16<@peter1138>which does waste railtype slots, i suppose
08:16<@planetmaker>TrueBrain, that's really ooold ;-)
08:16<TrueBrain>planetmaker: I AM OLD
08:16<@planetmaker>true :-P
08:16<TrueBrain>I only remember things from back then :P
08:17<@planetmaker>condolences, cookie?
08:17<TrueBrain>as long as you didnt bake them
08:17<@planetmaker>well.... I did
08:18<@peter1138>oh, the wonders of scale :p
08:19<@peter1138>th ebuildings aren't too bad
08:19<TrueBrain>I want 2 rails on 1 tile now
08:19<@peter1138>but that signal?
08:19<@peter1138>the bus seems kinda big too
08:19<TrueBrain>the signals are for the blind
08:19<TrueBrain>avoids "running through red"
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08:22<@peter1138>^ locomotion looks so good? ;)
08:26<@planetmaker>peter1138, cets will look similar ;-)
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08:45<Eddi|zuHause>it'd not look as severe, if the vehicle center followed the rail
08:45<Eddi|zuHause>(would disconnect from other vehicles though)
08:45<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think CETS will be that bad
08:54<@planetmaker>no, cets is smaller
08:54<@planetmaker>as are openttd's rail sprites
08:58<Eddi|zuHause>reminds me, i wanted to rewrite the articulation pattern
08:59<Eddi|zuHause>"16k vehicles ought to be enough for anybody"?
09:01<@planetmaker>good that it only reads "16k articulated vehicles shoud be enough for anybody" ;-)
09:04<Eddi|zuHause>so how does this new articulation callback work?
09:07<Eddi|zuHause>so... i'm thinking: each vehicle is made up of 3 parts, the first part will be (ID#+16k), the second part (ID#) and the third part (ID#+8k)
09:07<Eddi|zuHause>that means we can have 8k vehicles
09:07<Eddi|zuHause>and we save the magic for "dummy vehicles"
09:11<@planetmaker>8k vehicles should be enough for everyone ;-)
09:11<@planetmaker>I'd not want to look through that purchase list ;-)
09:11<Eddi|zuHause>we already have like 400
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09:13<@planetmaker>so only a factor of 20. omg ;-)
09:16<artti>Hey everyone, hope this is right place to ask a question or two. So I downloaded chill's patchpack. Should I just write into terminal patch p0 -i chillspatchpack.diff or I have to go to openttd folder or somewhere.
09:17<artti>I have ubuntu
09:17<Noldo>how did you get openttd in the first place?
09:17<Noldo>and have you heard of compiling
09:17<+glx>you must be in openttd source root dir
09:22<artti>I'm trying to find openttd source root dir, but unsuccesfully.
09:23<TinoDidriksen>How did you install OpenTTD?
09:25<@planetmaker>artti, did you download or checkout OpenTTD's source code?
09:25<artti>Well fromSoftware center
09:25<@planetmaker>That does NOT come with the game you download for playing
09:25<artti>from Ubuntu Software center
09:25<@planetmaker>Patches for OpenTTD do NOT apply to compiled software
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09:25<@planetmaker>e.g. not to the binary you run to play the game
09:25<artti>I found finally root dir
09:26<TinoDidriksen>Software Center doesn't give you the source. You need to download that separately.
09:27<artti>Software center provides with 1.0.3 version, but I downloaded 1.4.something and then Software center install it.
09:27<artti>so I move patch file to root dir and run code, right
09:27<TinoDidriksen>Even so, a .deb generally does not give you the source.
09:28<Pinkbeast>artti> Um. Do you know what "source" is, and have you ever compiled anything?
09:28<TinoDidriksen>Wasn't there a wiki page for applying patches?
09:28<@planetmaker>you didn't download version 1.4. Trust me
09:29<artti>Maybe I have complied(haven't been behind the computer for long time), I could follow the instructions easily...
09:29<artti>1.1.4 it was
09:29<@planetmaker>artti, may I suggest that you just use the pre-compiled binaries of chill's patchpack?
09:29<Pinkbeast>Not "complied", but "compiled".
09:30<artti>So I can't apply patch on already installed game. I have to download the source.
09:30<@planetmaker>yes, (of course)
09:30<artti>Compiled, yes. =)
09:30<artti>Already downloaded the patch
09:31<TinoDidriksen>You downloaded the source patch. That link has the finished package.
09:31<Pinkbeast>... as an RPM but not a Debian package (sure, alien or whatever they use these days, but maybe not so easy all the same)
09:32<artti>Confusing... I have to go to this link to download finished package?
09:32<Pinkbeast>artti> You might take a look at which explains how to obtain the source and compile it on Linux.
09:32<@planetmaker>the link I gave gives you a working version of OpenTTD
09:33<@planetmaker>no further work needed
09:33<@planetmaker>it's not meant to patch anything, it's a complete game
09:33<artti>Right... yes, I see it now, I thought it's just place for patch.
09:34<Pinkbeast>planetmaker> perhaps I'm missing something, but in LATEST there I see only Red Hat packages.
09:34<@planetmaker>I could have sworn to have deleted 'LATEST'. Ignore that
09:34<@planetmaker>go by the creation date
09:35<Pinkbeast>Ah, so artti wants
09:35<Pinkbeast>... assuming they're on an x86/amd64 system anyway. :-/
09:36<artti>And now I just extract it into openttd root dir?
09:36<@planetmaker>there, gone, Pinkbeast ;-)
09:36<@planetmaker>Thx for the notification
09:37<Pinkbeast>artti> It would be more clear if you stated explicitly which directory you propose to untar which files into.
09:37<@planetmaker>that should have builds for all OS? But yes, OpenTTD is only compiled by our CF for i386 / x64 platforms
09:37<@planetmaker>Irrespective of OS
09:37<@planetmaker>artti, use your home dir
09:38<Pinkbeast>Er... how do you know artti's the only user?
09:38<@planetmaker>and create a new dir just for the chillpp
09:38<Pinkbeast>And which files you propose to extract there.
09:38<@planetmaker>Pinkbeast, I don't. But replacing the /usr/... openttd by a patchpack version... is usually not what you want
09:38<@planetmaker>And it will surely mess up your package management
09:38<@planetmaker>Thus: don't do it
09:39<Pinkbeast>surely> not with appropriate use of dpkg-divert but I take your point
09:39<@planetmaker>with the appropriate use of the right tools you can do nearly anything ;-)
09:39<@planetmaker>point is "appropriate" and "having that knowledge"
09:40<Pinkbeast>Anyway, yes, if artti _is_ the only user it would certainly be best to do it in their home directory
09:40<Eddi|zuHause>self compiled stuff should go in /usr/local
09:40<@planetmaker>it's mostly a matter of keeping maintenance work to 'very low'
09:41<Pinkbeast>I think you two may have mistakenly thought I said "/usr/share/games/openttd is a good idea". :-)
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09:42<Pinkbeast>*blink* well, I guess it's academic now
09:42<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: you think factor 20 is difficult if all you have to do is, say, include the rest of europe, in the table?
09:43<@planetmaker>no, I don't think you said that, Pinkbeast ;-). I'm just splitting hairs :-P
09:43<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, possibly achievable
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09:44<artti>Now I didn't see what you were writing
09:44<Eddi|zuHause>and with that i mean the standard gauge europe. france, italy, britain, hungary, yugoslavia, ...
09:44<artti>Much before
09:45<artti>Something with package and problems
09:45<@planetmaker>you missed only pedantic banter, artti ;-)
09:45<artti>Anyway, seems like it's running now.
09:45<@planetmaker>just install the chillpp into a separate dir in your home dir and you'll be fine
09:46<artti>With patch already included
09:46<@planetmaker>Or do other people use your machine?
09:46<Pinkbeast>Good, but if you used /usr/share/games/openttd bear in mind that the package manager will likely stomp it next time the Ubuntu package is updated.
09:47<artti>Nope, I'm fine keeping it in the home folder... or should I move it somewhere.
09:48<Pinkbeast>If you are the only user, the home directory is a good choice.
09:48<Pinkbeast>good> well... reasonable anyway
09:48<artti>Thanks guys
09:49<Eddi|zuHause>"Berlins senator of justice resigns after 12 days in office"
09:49<artti>Yup, found openttd recently, seems lot of fun for me.
09:50<Eddi|zuHause>(there were strong allegations about fishy legal advice/scams)
09:52<@planetmaker>oh, 12 days?
09:56<TinoDidriksen>How much did the Yoggscast stream affect traffic?
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10:00<artti>Hmm... opening a save game it says invalid chunk size.
10:00<Pinkbeast>It's not compatible with saved games from other versions, no.
10:01<@planetmaker>artti, yes. Savegames between patched versions may not be compatible
10:02<artti>All right... I live with that. I just make a new game then. :P
10:02<@planetmaker>that's an issue which should not happen with unpatched openttd versions and their savegames
10:03<artti>Save game is from unpatched openttd version.
10:03<MNIM>whole versions, mind you. not nightlies
10:05<artti>Same game's earlier saves are working, but not later ones.
10:06<artti>If I remember then I updated my 1.0.3 version to 1.1.4 and continued playing with saved game.
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10:28<Eddi|zuHause>TinoDidriksen: see forum
10:32<@planetmaker>one could say double to triple
10:32<@planetmaker>with spike at 4x
10:40<TinoDidriksen>And how many stuck around?
10:40<@planetmaker>what is "stuck around"?
10:41<TinoDidriksen>Hm, difficult to quantify, I guess...
10:41<@planetmaker>we're still at twice the traffic
10:41<TinoDidriksen>Aha, nice.
10:48<@peter1138>DO IT
10:49<@peter1138>might give a different result for different locations i suppose
10:49<SpComb>no, it gives the right result :)
10:49<Eddi|zuHause>from the results page i see, i'd say "it works" :p
10:49<@planetmaker>I see
10:50<@planetmaker>but is it safe for work? :-P
10:50<@peter1138>well... it's google :p
10:50<Eddi|zuHause>if shakespeare is safe for work, then this is as well :p
10:54<@peter1138>hmm, wonder if my stats are back to normal
10:55<@peter1138>hmm no
10:55<@peter1138>as pm said, about double
10:55<@peter1138>not like the huge spike though :p
10:59<@peter1138>oh crap, i forgot to pause my game :S
10:59<Eddi|zuHause>that rarely happens to me
10:59<@peter1138>oh crap, i just reverted the wrong checkout
11:00<@peter1138>just lost my fileslot changes :(
11:00<@peter1138>oh well, probably wasn't useful
11:06<@peter1138>pause_on_idle :p
11:07<TrueBrain>NoGo 0.3 is being compiled :D Has some nice new features ... now I need someone to test them ... :D:D :)
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11:17<@peter1138>TaI is nice. pikka should finish it
11:21<@peter1138>god damn, i keep playing as if i have CD available
11:24<@peter1138>is CETS set up for the new shorter wagon offsets yet?
11:26<Eddi|zuHause>maybe in a day or two
11:26<@peter1138>are long vehicles drawn as parts or just one sprite?
11:28<Eddi|zuHause>as parts, if they are all in a straight line, as one otherwise
11:28<@peter1138>oops, forgot about YAIM
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11:28<@peter1138>cos getting alignment right around bends is a pita
11:29<Eddi|zuHause>yes, i need some kind of callback for that
11:29<@peter1138>maybe i should not have doubletracked that...
11:29<@planetmaker>peter1138, TAI has IMHO one big flaw: it limits town radius actively
11:29<Eddi|zuHause>otherwise it's near impossible to work around the glitches around slopes and bridges
11:29<@peter1138>planetmaker, does it?
11:29<@planetmaker>Thus a town will - from a certain point onwards - only build stupid roads
11:29<@planetmaker>thus you get a road grid surrounding every town. Looks ugly
11:29<@planetmaker>Otherwise: very nice
11:30<@planetmaker>at least that was my last experience with it :-)
11:30<@peter1138>well it is a beta
11:30<Hawson>planetmaker: could you have a conditional?
11:30<Eddi|zuHause>NewGRF town control!!
11:30*planetmaker can have a condition :-P But wonders about the context
11:30<Eddi|zuHause>this part of TaI is probably better ported to GS
11:30<Hawson>if (townPop > biglimit) { use_growth_big()} else { use_growht_small() }
11:31<@peter1138>operating profit: £-18000 :(
11:31<@planetmaker>Hawson, not really. The town decides to grow. Then the house set has to supply what shall grow
11:31<@planetmaker>if it doesn't supply a house, a road is built
11:31<@planetmaker>That's what is to it
11:31<@planetmaker>And that's why denying all houses being built IMHO is the wrong approach
11:31<@planetmaker>to limit towns. Indeed the better approach here is via GS
11:32<@peter1138>oh, my airports are the killer
11:32<@peter1138>oh well, i'll get rid of them
11:32<@peter1138>can't afford that kinda cost :)
11:33<@peter1138>i don't have enough money to remove them :(
11:33<Eddi|zuHause>haha :p
11:33<Hawson>Oooh....evil thought:
11:33<Hawson>if a town hates you claims stuff via eminent domain.
11:34<@peter1138>removing them should put me into a money making position
11:34<@peter1138>would've helped if i'd remember to build up the other end of the airport link
11:34<@peter1138>instead of £88,000/yr
11:38<@peter1138>hmm, road pieces cost money to maintain now
11:38<@peter1138>so maybe i won't randomly build pieces, heh
11:39<@peter1138>hrmm, still not making enough, heh
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11:44<@peter1138>who put these rivers in the game?
11:44<@peter1138>they're annoying, i have to bridge them :p
11:44<Eddi|zuHause>that'll need some getting used to... not trying to fix the town roads
11:45<Eddi|zuHause>maybe we need a GS that fixes them
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12:41<swissfan91>how many snow transitions can a building handle? 4?
12:42<TrueBrain>over 9000?
12:42<V453000>8999 :p
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12:44<swissfan91>as in... the transition from having no snow, to full snow.
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12:46<swissfan91>i think planetmaker told me it was 4
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12:57<@planetmaker>TrueBrain, technically 253 as the height variable is limited to that distinction... though of course one could introduce a gradient on flat terrain, too ;-)
12:57<TrueBrain>planetmaker: you shouldn't ask me :) Or you completely missed the joke :)
12:57<TrueBrain>like by miles :)
12:57<TrueBrain>ask = tell
12:57<@planetmaker>I didn't :-P
12:58<@planetmaker>I just wanted to nitpick on the wrong path :-P
12:58<@planetmaker>I guess we have a limit somewhere with the sprite limit... not sure though where that actually might be... hm
12:59<@planetmaker>action2 IDs?
13:00<@planetmaker>in any case there's 4 snowy states + no snow
13:03<swissfan91>I see. so 5 sprites of the same building, plus two construction stages is it?
13:04<@planetmaker>times. And however many construction stages you want. You can go from 1 (only finished) to 4 (3 building in progress, 1 finished)
13:05<@planetmaker>your choice on how many you use
13:05<@planetmaker>But having at least one construction stage is nice imho
13:06<@planetmaker>and indeed the snow state need not necessarily be reflected on the building being built (though imho should on the ground also for constructio nstages)
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13:15<frosch123>hmm, ottd settings are so screwed up...
13:16<frosch123>i would like to change the title of "advanced settings" window into "advanced settings for new games" resp. "advanced settings for current game". then i notices i should do the same for difficulty settings and game options. except that in game options only a few settings affect the current game, while the rest is not game specific :p
13:18<frosch123>looks like "currency", "drive side" and "town names" need to be moved
13:18<frosch123>the latter 2 would fit into map generation
13:18<frosch123>no idea where to put "currency" :p
13:19<+michi_cc>Maybe we need to dust of again :) (The different panes, not the NewGRF GUI).
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13:20<frosch123>but that's not the five minute patch i was heading for :p
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13:30<@planetmaker>We need three things, probably: game options, user settings and (newgame) settings
13:31<@planetmaker>though I'm not sure about the distinction of game options and user settings
13:32<@Yexo>there is also a 3rd category: company settings
13:33<@Yexo>those affect a new company in a MP game, but they are stored in the savegame
13:33<@Yexo>1) Settings that are stored in a savegame (including advanced settings, newgrf settings, AI settings and difficulty settings)
13:34<@Yexo>2) GUI settings (most of game options, all client-only advanced settings)
13:34<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23499 /extra/masterserver_updater/src/masterserver/ (handler.cpp masterserver.h udp.cpp):
13:34<CIA-6>OpenTTD: [MSU] -Feature: send multiple packets, instead of limiting the amount of servers returned
13:34<CIA-6>OpenTTD: [MSU] -Change: reduce the MTU so packets are getting through to those that are cut off from proper internet
13:34<@Yexo>3) Company settings (those affect a new company, but they are stored in the savegame). This doesn't fit in well with either 1) or 2)
13:34<@planetmaker>good point, Yexo
13:35<@Yexo>I think 1) needs to be moved to the newgame window
13:35<@planetmaker>1) User (UI) settings
13:35<@planetmaker>2) per-company settings
13:35<@planetmaker>3) per-game settings
13:35<@planetmaker>yes, I agree. Everything only affecting new games should be behind the "new game" button
13:35<@planetmaker>especially newgrfs and AI
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13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: translators * r23500 /trunk/src/lang/ (10 files): (log message trimmed)
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: belarusian - 24 changes by Wowanxm
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: czech - 65 changes by ReisRyos
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: estonian - 16 changes by runekri3
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: french - 3 changes by glx
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: german - 6 changes by NG
13:55<CIA-6>OpenTTD: yexo * r23501 /trunk/src/saveload/saveload.cpp: -Fix: loading scenarios downloaded from the online content didn't work anymore
13:56<Xaroth>planetmaker: and game scripts
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13:59<Xaroth>but with what michi showed, would be useful to integrate newgrf/gs into that same UI
13:59<Xaroth>instead of having 5 settings windows for 5 areas, 1 with 5 tabs is more easy to navigate to
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14:15<@planetmaker>Xaroth: no doubt, yes
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14:16<@planetmaker>Xaroth: my idea is to add the other tabs similarily
14:17<@planetmaker>but... looong way and not too high on my too full list of things to do
14:18<Eddi|zuHause>it wasn't that long ago that our settings window was changed from tabs to tree :)
14:19<@planetmaker>I know :-)
14:20<@planetmaker>I'd keep the settings as tree
14:20<@planetmaker>actually a start might be to link the different 'settings' (adv. settings, difficulty, newgrf, ai at least) from the new game window
14:20<@planetmaker>and work on from there
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14:21<Xaroth>but the tree works, but only so far
14:21<Xaroth>atm the tree is too big
14:21<Xaroth>and no clear boundries exist
14:21<Xaroth>making it hard to find certain settings
14:21<@planetmaker>you can minimize it to less than a dozen entries ;-)
14:21<Eddi|zuHause>maybe a start to splitting the settings into basic/advanced/expert is to put them in different levels of the tree
14:22<@planetmaker>and many options have no clear affiliation to one or the other category
14:22<andythenorth>make it user configurable
14:22<andythenorth>and in squirrel
14:22<andythenorth>with xml
14:22<Eddi|zuHause>doesn't need any architectural changes
14:22<andythenorth>[whatever it is]
14:24<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: imho that doesn't solve the issue really. It's cosmetic on the symptoms
14:24<@planetmaker>might even make it worse to find a setting
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14:27<andythenorth>can a newgrf detect which base set is in use and change graphics appropriately?
14:27<andythenorth>why not?
14:27<Eddi|zuHause>and never ever will
14:28<andythenorth>besides the obvious MP explosion potential with varact2
14:28<Eddi|zuHause>that is the exact reason
14:28<andythenorth>so I have to provide a parameter to switch graphics :(
14:28<andythenorth>or spam the station building menu
14:29<Eddi|zuHause>won't help with multiplayer either
14:29<Eddi|zuHause>if of 5 players 2 have original and 3 have opengfx
14:30<RetiredNavyVet>sorry, but whats varact2?
14:30*andythenorth applies for official 'victim' status
14:30<CIA-6>OpenTTD: frosch * r23502 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_engine.cpp vehicle_base.h): -Fix (r23143): Vehicle var 42 used a cargo translation table of the wrong GRF.
14:30<Eddi|zuHause>either your sprites must be generic enough to fit both, or you need to reference the baseset sprites
14:31<CIA-6>OpenTTD: frosch * r23503 /trunk/src/newgrf_engine.cpp: -Fix (r23143): Desync debug wants to resolve vehicle variables of vehicles without NewGRF. So, let it.
14:32<andythenorth>there's some reason (I forget) why stations can't use base tiles
14:32<andythenorth>it's railtype related
14:32<andythenorth>or I am telling lies
14:32<@planetmaker>they can afaik
14:33<RetiredNavyVet>nice work in OpenGFX+ pm..thanks for the tip!
14:33*andythenorth should specify the case more precisely
14:33<andythenorth>I don't know why I care tbh
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14:44<@planetmaker>:-) thx, RetiredNavyVet.
14:44<@planetmaker>thouch I only did some coding parts
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15:07<andythenorth>I could action A the base set sprite
15:08<andythenorth>replacing it to match CHIPS, rather than vice-versa
15:08<Eddi|zuHause>how crazy
15:09<andythenorth>you think? :P
15:09<andythenorth>it's become a minor obsession
15:09<andythenorth>like playing solitaire or such
15:10<frosch123>station tiles with track should use the default railsprite as first ground sprite
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15:10<frosch123>so that railtype grfs can draw the proper overlay
15:10<frosch123>non-track station tiles can draw whatever they want
15:10<frosch123>and of course you can draw additional groundsprites on top
15:12<andythenorth>I don't even think this is a valid issue to solve
15:13<andythenorth>I'm just being strange and obsessive
15:16*andythenorth doesn't like it when there's no right answer
15:16<frosch123>oh, i think there is a right answer in many cases; just that you do not like it :p
15:17<andythenorth>what's the right answer in this case?
15:17<frosch123>i do not know the question
15:18<frosch123>so i try 42
15:18<andythenorth>make CHIPS 'mud' stations match both OpenGFX and original sprites, in MP safe way
15:18<frosch123>is there some screenshot?
15:19<andythenorth>there is a right answer
15:19<andythenorth>remove them
15:19<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: take the baseset grass as base tile, and the mud as partially transparent sprite?
15:20<andythenorth>which mud though?
15:20<andythenorth>original TTD mud, or OpenGFX mud?
15:21<frosch123>the mud station i just build does not seem to be very baseset specific
15:21<andythenorth>I suspect that removing *is* the correct solution to this problem, conceptually
15:21<andythenorth>practically, it's not very desirable
15:22<frosch123>i see no problem with the current mud station... so i do not get the question
15:22<andythenorth>are you using opengfx?
15:23<frosch123>tried both
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15:25<Eddi|zuHause>is there an nml constant for "end articulation callback"?
15:25<andythenorth>concrete tiles have the same issue
15:26<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: "it was forgotten" was the result of a recent discussion
15:26<frosch123>andythenorth: chips mud looks neither like opengfx mud nor like original mud
15:26<frosch123>so what's the problem?
15:26<frosch123>it fits with both
15:27<andythenorth>the problem is that I am obsessive :P
15:28<andythenorth>but yes - it doesn't match original mud tile(s) either
15:28<andythenorth>it was supposed to, but I guess I screwed up :)
15:28<Eddi|zuHause>why is that necessary?
15:29<andythenorth>matching to original mud?
15:29<andythenorth>CHIPS is designed to fit seamlessly with FIRS
15:30<andythenorth>when I play FIRS, it uses original mud tile (the one with wheel tracks)
15:30<andythenorth>for many industries
15:31<andythenorth>I'd file it under 'does this really matter?' though
15:31<frosch123>andythenorth: well, if you want to use the same mud as the basetile, then draw the mud the same way as the basetiles do
15:31<frosch123>note that railtiles get their mud via recolouring, not via different sprites
15:31<frosch123>(though i am not sure that railtypes properly handle that, but they might/should)
15:32<frosch123>so, draw the default rail ground tile, but recoloured with sprite 0x317
15:32<andythenorth>that is intriguing
15:33<andythenorth>didn't think of that route
15:33<andythenorth>so this silly discussion led to something productive :)
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15:41<RetiredNavyVet>see Mom!?! games are productive!!!
15:42<@planetmaker>that's indeed a very interesting approach, frosch123 :-)
15:43<frosch123>not my idea :p
15:43<frosch123>but of course all of you should study ttdviewer more closely :p
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16:00*andythenorth has nothing left to do but play the game
16:00<frosch123>what game? open trucky truck deluxe?
16:01<andythenorth>open tram tycoon deluxe
16:01<andythenorth>no trucks in 1894 :P
16:01<andythenorth>no good ones anyway
16:02<@planetmaker>maybe it's time again for an open toy tycoon deluxe...
16:02*andythenorth tries FIRS
16:02<andythenorth>apparently it's nearly done :P
16:03<@planetmaker>or open toy tycoon diaper?
16:13<V453000>open trucky truck deluxe :DD
16:13<frosch123>do not blame me for that :)
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16:24<andythenorth>that would be more like open trucky truck (pick subtypes to refit the number of trailers needed) deluxe
16:27<andythenorth>why is there nowhere to take milk in FIRS?
16:28<frosch123>what kind of milk? liquid or piece goods? :p
16:29<V453000>or alcoholic milk?
16:29<andythenorth>frosch123: I've no idea :P
16:29<andythenorth>did Eddi|zuHause fix the spec yet?
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16:59<@Terkhen>good night
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17:09<Markk>My four towns are growing a bit too big now.
17:18<Cahata>hello ai want to ask is openttd works only with ttd or maybe also with tt ?
17:21<Zuu>It works without TTD or TT
17:21<Zuu>You can use the TTD graphics if you have access to the CD, but it is not neccessary.
17:22<Cahata>it can use tt graphic not ttd ?
17:22<appe>Markk: neat.
17:23<Markk>appe: :)
17:23<Zuu>Cahata: I don't think the TT graphics will work.
17:24<Zuu>Just get the installer (or apt-get install openttd) and you should get started with the free/open graphics.
17:24<Cahata>great game :)
17:24<Zuu>There are several people who prefere them over the original graphics. Others prefere to use the old graphics.
17:25<Markk>I prefer the original one.
17:26<Zuu>I like OpenGFX better
17:30<@planetmaker>TT graphics won't work, only TTD and OpenGFX; the installers can only install OpenGFX.
17:31<Cahata>that sad tt more sexy
17:31<Cahata>ttd have some not very relistic stuff
17:32<Cahata>of cource i mean tt winh no moon graphic pach
17:32<Cahata>tt is superior stategic game icream graphic not very make its fun
17:33<Cahata>thats only my opinion but i believe so ...
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19:43<CIA-6>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r23504 /trunk/src/ (17 files in 4 dirs): -Feature: Aircraft range.
19:43<CIA-6>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r23505 /trunk/src/ (52 files in 3 dirs): -Add: Indication in the order list if the next destination of an order is out of range.
19:44<CIA-6>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r23506 /trunk/src/ (17 files in 5 dirs): -Add: [NoAI] Support for dealing with aircraft range.
19:46<Eddi|zuHause>can that same indication be done for ship range (between buoys)?
19:48<@Yexo>+ * @return True if the type sis <- small typo
19:49<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: It could, but except for that singular error message on adding an order the code doesn't care about that distance limit at all, quite contrary to what this code does for aircraft.
19:50<Eddi|zuHause>does the aircraft distance scale with map size?
19:51<@Yexo>aircraft distance is set by newgrf, so it depends on the newgrf
19:52<Eddi|zuHause>hm, right
19:54<CIA-6>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r23507 /trunk/src/order_base.h: -Fix (r23505): Comment typo.
19:55<+michi_cc>Can be set either dynamically with CB36 or with an Action6.
19:59<+michi_cc>Oh, I didn't even notice I just implemented FS#773 ;)
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20:18<CIA-6>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r23508 /trunk/src/ (build_vehicle_gui.cpp lang/english.txt): -Add: Engine sorter for aircraft range.
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20:34<Eddi|zuHause>the google doc changelog is bloody useless...
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20:35<Eddi|zuHause>it doesn't show the interesting things, it splits everything up into small changes without giving an overview, and it takes ages to load...
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---Logclosed Tue Dec 13 00:00:26 2011