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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-12-13

---Logopened Tue Dec 13 00:00:26 2011
00:30<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: well, I hope someone summarizes our changelog as well for the wiki ;)
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02:06<@peter1138>who can draw track tiles?
02:06<@peter1138>hmm, i guess i can draw temporary ones
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02:23<@planetmaker>peter1138: what track tiles?
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02:27<Rubidium>peter1138: ########## for the horizontal one ;)
02:31<@planetmaker>I certainly have the sprites for the default track tiles...
02:32<@peter1138>planetmaker, i don't want default ones ;)
02:32<@planetmaker>well, what do you need?
02:33<@peter1138>i had an idea involving less-steep slopes
02:33<@planetmaker> maybe useful?
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03:25<dihedral>wow - i have not read that word in a commit message in a long time
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03:27<Hirundo>good thing, that "desync" is followed by "debug" :)
03:27<Hirundo>so it's a false alarm
03:29<@planetmaker>dihedral: like you haven't read it for three weeks?
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03:55<@peter1138>FS#4882 really doesn't fit the game...
04:00<Eddi|zuHause>@fs 4882
04:01<__ln__>operating system: Windows
04:02<Eddi|zuHause>linux users don't pay anything
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04:12<@planetmaker>and mixed companies pay by the percentage of players using windows
04:19<MNIM>actually, toll roads would be nice to have. would be cool to be able to obstruct other companies by making them pay for the usage of your roads
04:20<MNIM>also, a steady income from the peeps traveling between towns, dependent on town sizes.
04:21<@peter1138>because they won't build a road around the toll
04:23<MNIM>True. but then again, road costs could be higher. also, I like to play on mountainous maps with self-imposed realistic building, and I imagine there are more people like that
04:23<MNIM>it could be fun to have in MP games
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04:32<@peter1138>"self-imposed" generally doesn't work in MP
04:34<@peter1138>hmm, grfcodec made a broken png
04:37<@peter1138>gimp can open it but complains
04:37<@peter1138>other stuff either gives a warning or hangs
04:37<MNIM>even gimp complains? 0-0
04:38<@peter1138>libpng error: Read Error
04:38<@peter1138>not particularly useful :p
04:39<MNIM>anyway, self-imposed is the only way to go so far. ottd doesn't really encourage the mountainside-hugging roadbuilding you see IRL because any slope OTTD has the roads can match.
04:40<@peter1138>turn of build-on-slopes :)
04:40<@peter1138>seems any png file that grfcodec produces is broken, for me :(
04:41<MNIM>well that doesn't help, since that actually makes mountainhugging even harder.
04:41<MNIM>also, you can still go straight up any mountain.
04:41<@peter1138>ok, that's lakie's code. not touching it.
04:42<@peter1138>grfcodec's authors really didn't like whitespace
04:43<@peter1138>love it, i really do
04:51<Eddi|zuHause>they _could_ have done this in assembler :p
04:53<MNIM>huh. turns out that the game thinks that the 2cc trainset nightly I had is newer than the beta4.1
04:54<MNIM>while that i downloaded that nightly last year.
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05:03<dihedral>planetmaker, i must have missed that commit ;-)
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05:22<@planetmaker>MNIM, look how old that beta4.1 of the 2ccTS is
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05:23<MNIM>not as old as that nightly?
05:24<@planetmaker>how should I know what nightly you have
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05:25<@planetmaker>In any case 2ccTS uses the repo version as its version, so it should be true
05:25<@planetmaker>unless someone broke it ;-)
05:27<MNIM>oh wait. nevermind. beta 4.1 is from september *last* year
05:29*MNIM facepalms
05:30<MNIM>You'd think that if one can bother to make new nightlies one can bother to update the forum thread of the GRF
05:30<@peter1138>no :)
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05:33<MNIM>hmmmh. that fixed my mouse
05:38<@planetmaker>MNIM, should one update the forum thread every day? Or upon every commit?
05:38<@planetmaker>That seems hardly worth the work.
05:38<@planetmaker>I'd officially announce only releases, too
05:39<@planetmaker>and mention nightlies where appropriate, e.g. when presenting a new feature which is not yet being released but available for testing in nightlies
05:42<MNIM>planetmaker: no, but once a month would be nice
05:43<@planetmaker>shouldn't that depend on the project's activity?
05:43<MNIM>because the 2cc forum thread hasn't been updated in more than a year, while there has been activity
05:43<@planetmaker>And don't you think that those versions which the authors consider to be released are then announced - as released and then also uploaded to bananas?
05:44<@planetmaker>yes, the last _release_ is beta 4.1
05:44<@planetmaker>thus the thread is correct
05:44<@planetmaker>@topic get 1
05:44<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 1.1.4
05:44<@planetmaker>We also speak of 1.1.4. While we're nearer 1.2 in the code base than 1.1
05:45<@planetmaker>you're asking for a well-maintained development blog. Which... is asking quite a lot
05:45<@planetmaker>just keep track of a project which interests you
05:46<@planetmaker>and imho it's always clear that nightlies will be newer than any stable version
05:46<@planetmaker>provided that nightlies exist
05:47<@planetmaker>and... it has a reason the nightlies are not on bananas. Thus who uses nightlies should know to inform themselves
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06:30<Brumi>hi there
06:30<Brumi>I've got a translation issue
06:31<Brumi>I see strings referring to 'Range' of aircraft, it is something for NewGRFs, am I right?
06:33<@peter1138>it's range as in distance it can travel
06:33<Brumi>and is there a NewGRF which already has this feature?
06:33<@planetmaker>within 12 hours?
06:33<Brumi>I would prefer too see the strings in-game before translating them
06:34<@planetmaker>it's for the sort vehicle by <property> drop-down list
06:38<@peter1138>there: 32bpp png sprites inside grf files ;P
06:39<@peter1138>sickening, it uses unused bits of the compression flag to say "we have extra data"
06:40<@peter1138>then it reads a byte that contains a mask of what sizes are available
06:41<@peter1138>then it reads a dword for the image and mask png data, which gets stuffed at the end of the grf file
06:41<@peter1138>one catch
06:41<@peter1138>it's bloody ugly
06:42<@peter1138>second catch, it's all untested, but i imagine creating the file will be awkward as it'll need multiple passes
06:42<@peter1138>ok, lots of catches :D
06:42<@peter1138>i think i might revert it
06:42<@peter1138>and forget i ever did anything so nasty
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07:23<@planetmaker>hm... locks. Should they be buildable upon river rapids?
07:24<@planetmaker>I tend to answer 'yes'
07:24<@planetmaker>even though we currently explicitly deny this
07:25<@peter1138>if you wanna be realistic (lol) no ;)
07:26<@planetmaker>I thought that's common practise?
07:26<@planetmaker>and keep bypass, of course
07:26<@peter1138>as far as i know, if you're building locks on a river, you have weirs to regulate the flow
07:27<@planetmaker>which could be considered part of the lock
07:27<@planetmaker>at least how we implement them with a nice waterfall in the middle ;-)
07:28<@peter1138>clearly we 'need' ship queueing, realistic locks, multistop docks...
07:28<@planetmaker>would be nice :-P
07:28<@planetmaker>or at least ships which take space and don't superimpose on locks
07:28<@peter1138>nobody really uses boats anyway
07:28<@peter1138>so none of that will help :(
07:28<@planetmaker>hm, I do ;-)
07:28<@peter1138>except multistop docks
07:29<@planetmaker>I like them actually. Especially FISH
07:29<@peter1138>FISH suffers with introduction dates :(
07:30<@planetmaker>you mean too late?
07:31<@peter1138>they're all the same
07:31<@planetmaker>or how? I didn't yet quite have reason to complain
07:31<Eddi|zuHause>we should have an option to disallow terraforming water (including rivers)
07:31<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, yeah, otherwise you can just rip the rivers out :(
07:31<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, it can be made VERY expensive
07:32<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: no, that's not what i mean
07:32<Eddi|zuHause>but if you explicitly allow terraforming water, you can allow building over rapids
07:33<@peter1138>heh, TaI houses are tiny
07:35<@peter1138>8 houses on one tile
07:35<Eddi|zuHause>i guess pikka has an affinity for "fine scale"
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10:10<Eddi|zuHause>feature request: add prices for articulated parts
10:11<@Belugas>a hand is worth 10.000$
10:11<@Belugas>a leg is 5000$
10:11<@Belugas>an elbow is 2500$
10:12<@Belugas>does a neck falls into articulated parts?
10:15<@peter1138>articulated parts are fre
10:15<@peter1138>they come with the head vehicle, and no way to control that
10:15<@peter1138>the grf can control that
10:16<@peter1138>but then it can control the purchase price. can't it?
10:18<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but only by factor 1..255
10:18<Eddi|zuHause>which is... not enough
10:19<Eddi|zuHause>adjusting base cost is tricky...
10:19<Eddi|zuHause>you either lose precision at the low end, or you exceed the high end
10:19<Eddi|zuHause>we need a float... i.e. add a "cost exponent" :)
10:20<Eddi|zuHause>(which is basically adding or substracting from the base cost)
10:20<Eddi|zuHause>(but on a per-vehicle basis)
10:20<@planetmaker>we should use double double precision for that. Encoded in xml files
10:21<@peter1138>not ini?
10:22<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, the IMHO better solution would rather be to make the cost properties a dword
10:22<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: it masks the problem only
10:23<@planetmaker>you need a granularity larger than 4 billion?
10:23<@peter1138>"11.zoom adjustable by mouse wheel"
10:23<@peter1138>gosh, killer feature
10:23<@planetmaker>they iterate all OpenTTD features one by one ;-)
10:23<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: and you can't change sizes
10:23<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: only from byte to extended byte
10:23<@planetmaker>what sizes? Of properties?
10:23<@planetmaker>Yes, but one can introduce new properties
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10:24<Eddi|zuHause>but you might as well add an exponent as new property then :)
10:24<@planetmaker>which would make the price issue much more complicated
10:25<@planetmaker>just allow setting prices w/o base cost considerations within a newgrf
10:25<@planetmaker>and it should all be solved
10:25<@planetmaker>and then base costs could really be adjusted to just tune the price level
10:27<swissfan91>planetmaker: are you in charge of OpenGFX landscape?
10:29<swissfan91>are trees incorporated in this too?
10:29<@planetmaker>There's opengfx trees
10:29<swissfan91>oh, do you run that too? :)
10:30<@planetmaker>not exactly
10:30<@planetmaker>and what is your real question? ;-)
10:31<swissfan91>can I use a tree from it within a housing sprite?
10:31<@planetmaker>I guess you can. The set is licensed GPL v2. Thus: use that license and give attribution to the graphics artist
10:32<swissfan91>I see. Where can I find the opengfx tree sprites?
10:32<V453000>or you can link to the "currently used trees" ? (I have no idea how that works though)
10:32<@planetmaker>_I_ could only give you other permissions for one or two trees
10:32<@planetmaker>Indeed. It may be more oportune to just re-use a baseset sprite in the tile layout
10:32<@planetmaker>*sprite layout
10:33<@planetmaker>you don't need to actively copy & paste it
10:33<V453000>yes that is what I mean :)
10:33<@planetmaker>that's for example what I did in opengfx+landscape with the tree on the fenced land
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10:33<swissfan91>without giving too much away, I had wanted to.... 'decorate' the tree :)
10:33<V453000>oh :)
10:34<@planetmaker>swissfan91, it's all in the repository of that newgrf
10:34<@planetmaker> or
10:34<@planetmaker>both have trees. And share many
10:35<@planetmaker>I don't know exactly which the ogfx-trees author ported back again after I created growth stages for many of the trees
10:35<@planetmaker>and which / how many he added additionally
10:35<@planetmaker>got to go now. seminar
10:36<swissfan91>404 planetmaker :)
10:36<swissfan91>the page you were trying to access..
10:37<V453000>then just find it on the devzone :)
10:37<swissfan91>just thought he should know :)
10:38<V453000>the link is just missing /projects/ I guess ... well, you can find it I believe :p it is well organized
10:40<swissfan91>got it.
10:40<V453000>doing some crazy cablelift with a christmas tree? :D
10:41<swissfan91>nope just a town square :)
10:41<swissfan91>can the sprites here - only be downloaded as a .pcx file?
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10:43<V453000>pcx is basically the same as png when you need to edit it already, isnt it?
10:43<swissfan91>I don't seem to have anything that can open .pcx
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10:43<swissfan91>i use, which won't.
10:44<Eddi|zuHause>use a real program...
10:44<V453000>oh :)
10:44<V453000>then open in gimp, save as png and then work in I guess :)
10:45<Eddi|zuHause>ALL graphics programs i EVER knew could open pcx files. for over 20 years... except windows paint (even the older paintbrush could)
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10:45<swissfan91>apparently there's a .pcx plugin for, I'll give that a whirl.
10:52<swissfan91>none of them look like christmas trees! Maybe I'll try stolen trees..
10:53<V453000>or draw your own tree? :)
10:53<swissfan91>potentially that too :)
10:57<Eddi|zuHause>didn't TTRS have christmas trees?
10:58<@Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: if values['ID#'] > 127: warning("%s %s: Has invalid articulated parts"%(comp, ident)) <- that can be removed now from cets
10:58<Eddi|zuHause>i thought that was removed
10:58<Eddi|zuHause>maybe oberhümer forgot one place
10:58<Eddi|zuHause>but i'm reworking that whole code anyway
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11:21<__ln__>something wrong with this:
11:23<@peter1138>now i can't complain about people using DMUs to carry freight...
11:24<Eddi|zuHause>only that these are EMUs
11:25<Eddi|zuHause>this looks like switzerland. those are weird people :p
11:25<@peter1138>well, MU was the point :p
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11:29<__ln__>yes, it says Швейцария
11:32<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but i can't actually read that :p
11:42<Eddi|zuHause>WARNING: i'll enable on the CETS repo.
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12:23<@peter1138>warning? seems like a good idea :p
12:26<@peter1138>native = CRLF though? ew ;P
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12:51<@Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: that doesn't help until oberhümer also enables that extension
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13:00<amix>someone here playing TrainZ in here?
13:04<swissfan91>can someone give me an Alpine Building to draw? :)
13:11<swissfan91>does it have a name? - so I can search for it to get other angles..
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13:20<swissfan91>anyone feel free to chip in with any more :P
13:26<@Terkhen>oooh, shiny new strings to translate
13:27<CIA-6>OpenTTD: frosch * r23509 /trunk/src/news_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#4884]: Drawing of newspaper headlines used different padding than the initial sizing of the window.
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13:47<CIA-6>OpenTTD: translators * r23510 /trunk/src/lang/ (13 files): (log message trimmed)
13:47<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:47<CIA-6>OpenTTD: belarusian - 9 changes by Wowanxm
13:47<CIA-6>OpenTTD: dutch - 25 changes by habell
13:47<CIA-6>OpenTTD: english_US - 9 changes by Rubidium
13:47<CIA-6>OpenTTD: finnish - 13 changes by jpx_
13:47<CIA-6>OpenTTD: french - 5 changes by glx
13:47<Prof_Frink>swissfan91: Britanniahutte.
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13:49<swissfan91>is that in Saas-Fee, Prof_Frink?
13:50<swissfan91>do you know the place? Or is that just where you google'd?
13:50<Prof_Frink>I took that photo.
13:50<swissfan91>well, that's handy :)
13:51<Prof_Frink>I was going for the Selle, but don't have any good photos of it
13:51<swissfan91>most of the graphics I have drawn so far are from Saas-fee, you may recognise them.
13:51<swissfan91>well, you probably won't. they aren't that great :)
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13:52<Prof_Frink>And I didn't stay that long in the town.
13:53<swissfan91>oh right. you may have seen the distinctive church?
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13:54<swissfan91>and my version..
13:54<Prof_Frink>Ah yes. Opposite the guides office.
13:55<RetiredNavyVet>brrrr, nads just shriveled!
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13:59<swissfan91>what time of year did you go there, Prof_Frink?
14:00<swissfan91>ah, not a skier then.
14:01<swissfan91>you should be able to give me plenty of buildings then! :)
14:02<Prof_Frink>No, not many pictures with buildings in them
14:02*Rubidium wonders how a fan of Switzerland can survive without a huge of amount photos of snowy Swiss buildings
14:03<frosch123>maybe he is also a fan of the future :p
14:04<Rubidium>future, does that even exist? ;)
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14:05<Rubidium>nice thought experiment: will there always be a present, if so how do you prove it?
14:06<Rubidium>after all, you can only 'see' the past, not the present nor the future
14:06<frosch123>i don't think there are necessary presents under your christmas tree .p
14:07<Rubidium>also something you can't prove ;)
14:07<swissfan91>rubidium - I have a HDD full of them at home!
14:07<Prof_Frink> <-- Much nicer than silly buildings.
14:08<swissfan91>very much so.
14:08<swissfan91>Although it would take one hell of a landscape set to recreate that!
14:08<Rubidium>especially as I have not Christmas tree
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14:10<Rubidium>and my English is failing once more :(
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14:12<Prof_Frink>swissfan91: Think of it as a challenge :)
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14:20<andythenorth>planetmaker lock patch \o/
14:20<@peter1138>it's not real
14:21<andythenorth>nothing is real
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14:30<andythenorth>so does cargo age on stations?
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14:38<frosch123>do stations age under cargo?
14:38<andythenorth>not as far as I know :P
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14:40<@Yexo>andythenorth: does the station rating algorithm in FIRS work ok?
14:41<@Yexo>I'm thinking it should be copied to OpenGFX+Industires if it works ok
14:41<andythenorth>Yexo: it's too efficient :)
14:41<andythenorth>have you tried it?
14:41<@Yexo>I haven't played a game for a long time
14:41<andythenorth>imho it makes for a better game, but it's currently too generous
14:41<andythenorth>station rating algo perhaps made sense on a 64x64 map
14:41<andythenorth>but not otherwise
14:42<andythenorth>(the old one that is)
14:42<andythenorth>the current one needs to change the angle of decay curve after n days
14:42<andythenorth>dunno what n is though
14:42<andythenorth>I have a test game in progress, so we could tweak
14:42<andythenorth>or play a MP game...
14:43<andythenorth>or I can send you my save, and you can marvel how many 'outstanding' ratings I have ;)
14:44<@Yexo>no need, I'll play a game soon to test it
14:44*andythenorth ponders allowing station tiles to adjust decay :P
14:44<andythenorth>similar to cargo aging cb
14:46<@Yexo>say you mix two tiles in one station, for which tile would the callback get run?
14:48<Hirundo>Yexo: AFAIK station rating is a cargo CB, not a station CB
14:48<@Yexo>* andythenorth ponders allowing station tiles to adjust decay :P <- I know, I was reacting to that
14:49<frosch123>i thought we trash the rating cb in favour of gs? :p
14:51<andythenorth>I think adjusting decay with station tiles might smell bad
14:51<andythenorth>and complicated :P
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14:53<@peter1138>hmm, station triggers...
14:53<@peter1138>does anyone (try to) use them?
14:53<frosch123>random triggers or animation triggers?
14:53<@peter1138>animation is, afaik, implemented
14:53<frosch123>noone complained :)
14:55<@peter1138>triggers are so barely documented anyway :)
14:56<@peter1138>i do remember the fun & games with vehicle triggers back in the day
14:56<@peter1138>i assume they still work
14:56<@peter1138>i probably rewrote them
14:59<@peter1138>mind you station triggers are pretty undefined when you combine station parts from different newgrfs. hmm.
15:00<frosch123>retriggering is only useful for tile-specific bits
15:01*peter1138 ponders implementing it for completeness
15:02<@peter1138>might have to ask if any sets use it though :p
15:02<@peter1138>i could test for feature 4 type 80/83/84
15:04<@peter1138>i'm reminded of ge*rge's test grfs ;)
15:04<frosch123>84 is unlikely for stations :p
15:05<frosch123>hmm, 83 as well
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15:06<@peter1138>well yeah
15:06<@peter1138>but it's in one place
15:06<@peter1138>CHIPs uses random bits, but...
15:08<@peter1138>ok, need to test whether any do rerandomising
15:09<@peter1138>cos loads use random bits, heh
15:10<@peter1138>ISR and newstatsw
15:13<@peter1138>i remember when i was doing animation triggers, i was trying to merge them
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15:13<@peter1138>and must've got distracted by animations, and forgot about the rerandomisations :p
15:14<@peter1138>cool, needs a savegame bump
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16:11<CIA-6>OpenTTD: planetmaker * r23511 /trunk/src/order_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#4885] (r23504): Aircraft orders could not be shared anymore when they had no range property declared (Hirundo)
16:21<@Yexo>see commits from +- 21 hours agao
16:21<Wolf01>oh, nice
16:23<Wolf01>gah, I miss the auto suggest feature on the Explorer address bar, I hate to browse for a nested folder :P
16:23<@planetmaker>my FF does that...
16:24<Wolf01>my FF too, but not Windows itself :P
16:24<Wolf01>I often try to close a window with a gesture I use on FF
16:27*Rubidium is once more disappointed by 'journalists'
16:29<@planetmaker>did they write bogus stuff?
16:29<Rubidium>"the expectations are that december will remain relatively cold", yet each day's temperature has been above the average so far
16:30<Rubidium>in some article talking about a white Christmas
16:30<Wolf01>is it normal that, assumed I run the game from a thumb drive, when I download something with the "check online content" feature the game freezes until the current grf/scenario/data file has finished the download?
16:30<@Alberth>you should not read such things :)
16:31<Rubidium>the 80% deviation bar doesn't even touch the 0 degrees for the coming weeks
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16:31*andythenorth suggests it's cold
16:31<andythenorth>more or less I don't care
16:31<andythenorth>and also ice fell from the sky :/
16:32<Rubidium>though it's not as bad as the biggest disappointment I've had
16:32<@planetmaker>that sounds relatively harmless case of incompetency
16:32<@planetmaker>*like a
16:33<Rubidium>a massive fire, yet there were no traces of CO2 in the air
16:33<@Alberth>good night all
16:33<Rubidium>night Alberth
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17:00<@Terkhen>good night
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17:11<appe>forever alone lever infinite:
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17:41<@planetmaker>that sounds impatient ;-)
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18:02<CIA-6>OpenTTD: planetmaker * r23512 /trunk/src/ (water_cmd.cpp water_map.h): -Change [FS#4872]: Allow to place locks also on river rapids and restore rivers, if locks are deleted
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20:46<Moussekateer>allo again
20:47<Moussekateer>I have a short and sweet question. How does one give players money on a server?
20:59<Eddi|zuHause>money can only be given from one company to the other, through the client list
21:00<Eddi|zuHause>it cannot be created out of thin air, and it cannot be given to companys without players
21:01<Moussekateer>Ah I see. Thanks
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21:10<Moussekateer>Is there no mod I could install to give money? Unless there's some technical limitation
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21:17<Eddi|zuHause>i know no current mod doing that
21:18<Eddi|zuHause>but you can try loading the map on single player, cheat money, and load it back on the server
21:25<Moussekateer>hmmm ok I'll look into that. Thanks
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---Logclosed Wed Dec 14 00:00:27 2011