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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-12-16

---Logopened Fri Dec 16 00:00:33 2011
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04:30*peter1138 greebles dihedral
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05:49<dihedral>"A greeble or nurnie is a small piece of detailing added to break up the surface of an object"
05:49<dihedral>ok peter1138 if that makes you feel better ....
05:51<@peter1138>2cc bug:
05:51<@peter1138> allowed cargo classes 0000000000000001
05:51<@peter1138>disallowed cargo classes 1111111111111011
05:51<@peter1138>= pax disappearing
05:51<@peter1138>i'll post it in their thread :p
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06:25<fjb|tab>That is the automatic pax reduction feature.
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06:36<@Alberth>kkmic: hai, wouldn't a new WT be great, for all NewGRFs ?
06:37<@planetmaker>it would :-)
06:37<kkmic>I don't have knowledge about the inner workings of the translator and the newgrf system
06:37<kkmic>what would be needed in the next version?
06:38<@planetmaker>well. The important constraints for the translator is to produce language files of OpenTTD. To offer new strings for translations as is done now. To make change history visible
06:38<@planetmaker>To search in the strings to make it easier to ensure some consistency for translations
06:39<@planetmaker>i.e. search for 'height level' and see how it was translated in other strings
06:39<kkmic>and keep a version history of each string?
06:39<@planetmaker>yes, that's done currently.
06:39<@Alberth>in a version control system mostly
06:39<@planetmaker>but that's also done in the svn, of course or could be extracted there. Not sure whether it's (also) in a translation DB
06:39<kkmic>I haven't seen it from my end.. I'm just a translator :)
06:40<@planetmaker>Improvement over current system... <-- look for bugs related to WT3
06:41<@planetmaker>of course the system must also validate all strings against correct syntax (e.g. case, gender, parameters)
06:41<kkmic>No, I was asking if the WT keps an independent version history for each string... sometime older versions contains hints and such
06:41<@planetmaker>I don't know
06:41<@planetmaker>but it can always get that from svn history
06:41<@planetmaker>if it doesn't do its own accounting. Might even be better.
06:43<kkmic>Should be in it's own database. It's faster. And it does not interfere with is being committed
06:43<kkmic>*with what is being commited
06:44<@Alberth>TrueBrain had the idea to base everything on a REST architecture
06:45<@Alberth>so you can have clients downloading data, and uploading changes
06:45<@Alberth>if you add newgrf support, you are going to have a lot of entities with translations in several languages
06:46<@planetmaker>kkmic: it will need updating itself then with the svn
06:46<@planetmaker>the svn is the authorative instance - and the svn can change stuff
06:47<@planetmaker>in principle in every language.
06:48<@Alberth>to give you an idea of the projects side: is the master file
06:48<@planetmaker>kkmic: what would be a good addition is a "discussion" type of thing related to single strings
06:49<@Alberth>it relates names (at the left) with text (at the right). The translations are all in the same directory (or in lang/unfinished)
06:50<@Alberth>newgrf do something similar but at a smaller scale, eg FIRS:
06:58<@planetmaker>newgrfs have the additional difficulty: you'd need to store strings by version
06:59<kkmic>Yeah, a discussion/comments would be a good addition
06:59<kkmic>I think this could be easily added to the current architecture
07:01<@planetmaker>TrueBrain: what difficulties would be involved to get a "clone" of the WT3 machine into another VM for testing changes to a WT?
07:02<kkmic>How does the current WT gets the strings list?
07:02<@planetmaker>from the svn
07:02<@planetmaker>I assume
07:02<kkmic>Directly from the SVN? Is the process automatic?
07:02<@Alberth>part of a post-commit hook would be my guess
07:03<kkmic>Also, does it keep an internal copy of the data? Or everything is based on updates/commits to the svn? From the changelog, I guess it's the former
07:04<TrueBrain>planetmaker: well, first off, we are out of RAM atm :p So that is a huge difficulty :) And I have no clue what you mean with: "for testing changes to a WT". Which 'a' you refer to?
07:05<@Alberth>it builds a new text-file for every language afaik, which gets pushed to subversion (who then makes a diff)
07:06<@planetmaker>TrueBrain: my idea is to offer a clone of the current way WT works on another VM which does not commit to svn. But which allows to test stuff
07:06<@planetmaker>and which allows then interested parties to try their ideas of what would work
07:06<TrueBrain>WT3.0 should not be developed on, so that would be a bad idea
07:06<@planetmaker>It must not be on our machine
07:06<@planetmaker>TrueBrain: you say that. But let people find out that themselves.
07:07<@planetmaker>And see how it works. On a live system (just w/o feedback to svn)
07:07<TrueBrain>I have no interest 'wasting' my time in that, sorry :)
07:07<TrueBrain>Making a clone alone would take me several hours
07:07<TrueBrain>only for them to find out the code is unreadable
07:07<TrueBrain>we have had this talk before, didn't we? :)
07:08<TrueBrain>I am pretty sure we did :D But that is not important :)
07:08<@Alberth>it is somewhere publically available?
07:08<TrueBrain>Alberth: no
07:08<@planetmaker>that's the point. It's not documented anywhere how it interfaces, can interface and all this shit
07:08<@planetmaker>Thus the system itself is the only documentation
07:09<@planetmaker>And thus no-one can reasonably work or think about it anyway, except you and maybe Rubi who know the system architecture and interfaces in detail
07:09<TrueBrain>well, I once had a subversion with WT3.1 in it, which has all the info
07:09<TrueBrain>but that domain expired, well, got redirected
07:09<TrueBrain>and I have no idea where the fuck I left the subversion :P
07:09<@planetmaker>And thus the idea: get a clone. It has the necessary interfaces. Which then new stuff can used to get starting
07:10<TrueBrain>planetmaker: it is unreasnoable to think that the WT3.0 source would give any insight :)
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07:10<@planetmaker>I find it actually quite sad that you block *every* attempt by saying that wt3 is a dead end and won't even have anyone look at it
07:10<@planetmaker>and I'd leave the decision whether it's fruitful to interested people
07:10<kkmic_>Internet failure. What did I missed?
07:11<@planetmaker>TrueBrain: the main issue is, that the interfaces are not clear. And they're in that WM
07:11<TrueBrain>planetmaker: we really had this discussion before :D
07:12<@planetmaker>yes, and you kill every attempt by denying even a look at the current state :-(
07:12<TrueBrain>and you know what the funny part is planetmaker? You never asked if I have documentation about WT, or if I can help out developing
07:12<@Alberth>can we not agree on some interface?
07:12<TrueBrain>you keep blaming me I am blocking something
07:12<TrueBrain>yet you never ask if I want to help?
07:13<@planetmaker>TrueBrain: you wanting to help or not is not the issue or question. I've no idea whether you want it or not.
07:13<TrueBrain>and you know too planetmaker, you have no clue how the code is, looks like, how it is installed, and what is requires. So it is a bit odd you make all these assumptions on it
07:13<TrueBrain>without asking
07:13<@planetmaker>Rcently you keep saying you have no time
07:13<kkmic_>TrueBrain: is the current WT based on any public framework? Or is everything built "in house"?
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07:13<TrueBrain>kkmic_: written from scratch
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07:13<@Alberth>TrueBrain: what is the best way for kkmic to start?
07:14<TrueBrain>Alberth: heavily depends on his abilities tbh
07:14<TrueBrain>best would to make a design document first
07:14<TrueBrain>collect what is needed for this new WT
07:14<TrueBrain>what the demands are, constraints
07:14<kkmic>I need documentation regarding the interface with other systems
07:14<TrueBrain>I did that for WT3.0, and it was really useful
07:14<TrueBrain>of course you cannot implement everythng, but at least you can get a general idea and aim
07:15<@Alberth>kkmic: interfacing is not the big issue imho, you are communicating with text files, or patches
07:15<kkmic>And we need to clearly establish the goals of the WT
07:15<TrueBrain>there is a lot of documentation, bug reports, developers-documents about what a new WT should do
07:15<@Alberth>kkmic: that would be the first thing in the document imho :)
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07:15<TrueBrain>spread out atm, which is a bitch
07:15<kkmic>Maybe, but why reinvent the wheel when I can use something that already works?
07:16<TrueBrain>very old document
07:16<TrueBrain>kkmic: there is nothing atm that 'works'
07:16<TrueBrain>WT3.0 is build wrong, sadly enough, and hooks into OpenTTD in ways that are not practicle
07:16<@Alberth>kkmic: im general TrueBrain knows what he is saying, so believe him when he says it is not readable :)
07:16<kkmic>I had the impression that WT works for what i was intended to do
07:16<TrueBrain>I have a framework for WT3.1, but I have no clue where the source is
07:17<TrueBrain>also, ther eI noticed huge issues with svn and Python
07:17<TrueBrain>but I believe there is a newer module which solves those issues
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07:21<TrueBrain>dihedral: do you have any clue where noaddedsuger pointed to? :P
07:23<TrueBrain>lol; forgot I once wrote a CoucheDB version
07:23<TrueBrain>that was fun :D
07:23<TrueBrain>RoR version ...
07:25<dihedral>TrueBrain, you mean wt3? ;-)
07:26<dihedral>yep i know that
07:26<TrueBrain>wt3.1, yes :)
07:26<TrueBrain>you have an IP?
07:26<dihedral>an? IP?
07:26<dihedral>or the IP :-P
07:26<TrueBrain>an IP it pointed to :P
07:26<TrueBrain>I have no clue on which VPS I instaleld it :P
07:27<dihedral>dig :-p
07:27<TrueBrain>no, you changed it a few months (years?) ago back to yourself remember?
07:27<kkmic>Hmm... in what language is WT written?
07:27<dihedral> and 2001:1af8:4100:a000:1::21
07:27<dihedral>i was thinking about it, but i never did
07:28<TrueBrain>ah, lol :D
07:28<Eddi|zuHause>anybody has a clue about a program that can repair video files if the header is missing?
07:28<TrueBrain>and those IPs expired long ago :P
07:28<TrueBrain>but tnx dihedral
07:28<dihedral>yeah - with the end of at leaseweb
07:28<kkmic>Well, since I only know PHP....
07:28<TrueBrain>ah; I did install it on the LW machine
07:30<TrueBrain>dihedral: found it :D:D
07:30<dihedral>you know - you could host it over at
07:31<@planetmaker>that's what I wanted to suggest.
07:31<TrueBrain>last changed: Jul 2009
07:31<TrueBrain>it is one of my (many) failed attempts :P
07:31<dihedral>i beat you to it, planetmaker ;-)
07:31<kkmic>So, the question arises: Ho can I lend a hand if WT is built using Python and I can program in PHP?
07:31<@Alberth>build a new WT imho
07:31<@planetmaker>Playground. Experimenting ground. If something comes from it: wonderful. If not...
07:31<@planetmaker>so be it
07:32<@Alberth>and/or learn Python :)
07:32<@Alberth>it's a fun language :)
07:32<dihedral>learn python - if you know php, you know you can learn programming languages, do not be scared of python
07:32<@planetmaker>whatever. I'll be happy to provide the infrastructure on the devzone
07:32*dihedral should start the nightly server again :-P
07:32<TrueBrain>I would advise against a WT in PHP; we have had that, the performance was rubbish :D (but it is just that: advise)
07:32<kkmic>Anything can be made given enough time and resources. But then again I come to the reinvent the wheel question
07:33<@Alberth>kkmic: we have come to the conclusion that the current wheel will not fit in the car of tomorrow
07:33<kkmic>TrueBrain: You mean the WT before the current version? Or was it another?
07:34<@planetmaker>we have WT3. There was a WT2
07:34<TrueBrain>ugh, some basic background
07:34<TrueBrain>we have had many WTs over the years
07:34<TrueBrain>most noticable: WT2
07:34<TrueBrain>written in PHP by MiHaMiX
07:34<TrueBrain>worked for .. I think a year or 2, 3
07:34<TrueBrain>did a great job
07:34<TrueBrain>for that time even more
07:34<TrueBrain>but there were some issues; style-wise it was a bit poor, and performance was bad
07:35<TrueBrain>so I wrote WT3, based on Django (Python), to work inside our current website (also Django)
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07:35<TrueBrain>worked well till about a year ago I think? Then NML came and needed translation too
07:35<TrueBrain>soon we have GS that needs translation too
07:35<TrueBrain>and there is one huge bug in cases in WT3, which I cannot solve :(
07:35<TrueBrain>The interface too is getting obsolete, and is in need for modern webtechniques
07:36<TrueBrain>for example, WT3 was originally not written to work with UTF-8
07:36<TrueBrain>to just name one of the sillyness :)
07:36<TrueBrain>so since .. begin 2009, I have been trying to rewrite WT3, called WT3.1
07:36<TrueBrain>in a way that it would work
07:36<TrueBrain>sadly, I always been alone in programming it, and because of that it never finished
07:37<TrueBrain>I have had one that was most promising, but Python+svn fucked me over, and I dropped it like a stone :)
07:37<kkmic>The interface, as it is, works pretty well for me.
07:37<TrueBrain>it works, sure; but it is old
07:37<TrueBrain>believe 2007?
07:37<TrueBrain>there are better, more modern ways to do things
07:37<TrueBrain>for example: jquery
07:37<dihedral>08 i believe
07:38<TrueBrain>tomato tomato
07:38<kkmic>Yeah, it's old. Maybe. But is it worth to change it? I really think it's good as it is
07:38<dihedral>07 was the time of ... _Karin
07:38<dihedral>or was that 08 too
07:38<TrueBrain>hehe @ dihedral :D
07:38<TrueBrain>kkmic: well, I think a good use-case test would show you many improvements :)
07:38<TrueBrain>history is rather annoying, walking through strings feels old and sluggish
07:38<TrueBrain>my personal list is rather large :D
07:39<kkmic>I'm not talking about the technology used, I'm talking about the usability standpoint
07:39<TrueBrain>basic concept is good, but a lot of details that need changing
07:39<dihedral>improving, yes - rewrite? would it really need that?
07:39<kkmic>dihedral: I agree with you
07:39<TrueBrain>I was not talkinga bout the code either :) Just from a use-case point of view
07:40<TrueBrain>mostly what I always wanted, is some way to display 'hints'
07:40<dihedral>and what is the problem with cases, TrueBrain
07:40<TrueBrain>to keep translations consistent
07:40<TrueBrain>dihedral: don't use them :D:D:D
07:40<TrueBrain>once a blue monday WT3 barks again, because someone added a case and removed it in some order
07:40<TrueBrain>then I have to manually reset WT again ...
07:40<TrueBrain>the things you don't see as normal user :P
07:41<TrueBrain>dihedral: mind changing noaddedsugar to ... for a few days?
07:41<TrueBrain>then I can boot this VPS I hope ..... not sure tbh :P
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07:44<kkmic>Well, it the next WT won't be using PHP I am of only minimal help I'm afraid. I could give you a rundown of what I would like to see in the next WT and what worked and not worked for me in the current version
07:46<Eddi|zuHause>honestly, limiting yourself to "i can only program <one language>" is silly
07:46<dihedral>TrueBrain, need IPv6 too?
07:46<TrueBrain>dihedral: no tnx
07:46<Eddi|zuHause>almost all programming languages are sufficiently similar that they can easily be learned if you already know one
07:46<TrueBrain>well, Python is a bit of an exception there, but yeah .. both imperative languages :)
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07:47<Eddi|zuHause>especially python is one of the easiest languages to learn-as-you-go-along
07:48<@Alberth>kkmic: it is common to see problems as an opportunity to learn something new :p
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07:49<dihedral>TrueBrain, done ;-)
07:49<TrueBrain>how long is your TTL? :)
07:50<TrueBrain>anyway: <- when / if the URL works, there is a lot of documentation and an initial framework for WT3.1 there
07:51<kkmic>Alberth: True, unfortunately learning requires free time, which is something that my current RL does not allow me too much to be able to learn a new language AND do something tangible with it in a reasonable amount of time
07:52<Eddi|zuHause>if your "RL" prevents you from learning, then you have the wrong job...
07:52<dihedral>you might want to touch the nginx config? :-P
07:52<@Alberth>kkmic: we are in no hurry, otherwise someone would have written a new version already
07:52<TrueBrain>dihedral: why? That exact URL works :P
07:52<Xaroth>the url works for me :o
07:52<dihedral>just without www. ;-)
07:52<TrueBrain>planetmaker: and just a FYI, if you would had just asked if I had documentation about how a new WT would need to be designed, the same would have happened, without you accusing me of 'blocking' *every* attempt ....
07:53<Xaroth>kkmic: then helping out with something huge like WT isn't going to help either
07:53<kkmic>Well, it was a challenge
07:54<TrueBrain>dihedral: there, added www :P
07:54<Xaroth>learning python is a more fun challenge tbqfh :P
07:54<TrueBrain>dihedral: tnx a lot :D I am still out of domains :(
07:54<kkmic>Unfortunetely, I'm on the wrong side of the mountain, it seems
07:54<Xaroth>there are mountains?
07:55<TrueBrain>Added by Patric 'TrueBrain' Stout 871 days ago <- the good old days :D
07:55<@Alberth>kkmic: for what it is worth, I have programmed a bit of PHP, and was annoyed by it very soon. I also programmed Python, and found it MUCH more fun.
07:56<@Alberth>so you might enjoy learning a new language :)
07:56<@planetmaker>Well, sorry TrueBrain. Nice to see that indeed. I'd had hoped for this at the same time when it comes to "WT3 is not worth looking at".
07:56<Xaroth>aye, python is more -fun- programming :P
07:57<Xaroth>planetmaker: there's a dutch saying for that
07:57<@Alberth>Xaroth: until you have an application of a several 10,000 lines of code :)
07:57<TrueBrain>planetmaker: fair enough :)
07:57<Xaroth>Alberth: I do.. well.. maybe not several, but i've hit 14+k lines at least
07:58<@Alberth>that's pretty big already :)
07:58<Xaroth>well it's at least -somewhat- organised..
07:58<@planetmaker>Xaroth: there are many Dutch sayings
07:58<TrueBrain>Xaroth: new website is just 1.6k LoC :P
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07:59<Xaroth>my home server codebase is 5k
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07:59<Xaroth>TrueBrain: yeh, the new website can use another few K LoC
07:59<Xaroth>planetmaker: yeh, but that one was a funny saying :P
07:59<TrueBrain>kkmic: personally, I really don't care which language WT3.1 / WT4 would be written in. I favour Python, mostly because most of OpenTTD is in Python (NML, Website, ...)
07:59<Xaroth>you'd have to be dutch or understand dutch to get it tho :P
07:59<TrueBrain>PHP is one of my least favorites, mostly because it doesnt remember its state between requests
08:00<TrueBrain>so stuff gets REALLY expensive really fast :)
08:00<Xaroth>PHP is bloated as well
08:00<TrueBrain>bloated or not, I don't care
08:00<kkmic>What's a NML?
08:00<TrueBrain>but that every requests needs to build up its state ....
08:00<TrueBrain>NML is a language to write NewGRFs in
08:00<@planetmaker>Xaroth: Have fune hinting at unquoted sayings in a foreign language.
08:00<TrueBrain>which allows translations in the same style as OpenTTD language files
08:01<TrueBrain>(for which we want a WT to be capable of processing that)
08:01<kkmic>I'm not saying that PHP is the best, but it's the only one I know and we use it here for every project, small and large, and it does it's job well
08:01<@Alberth> <-- there is NML
08:01<kkmic>Speaking of job, I have on to get back to :)
08:02<TrueBrain>kkmic: it is good for many things :)
08:02<@planetmaker>TrueBrain: yes, I'm now really happy about this. May it be unfinished and whatever. It's something "give" people.
08:02<TrueBrain>(PHP that is)
08:02<kkmic>*Speaking of job, I have one to get back to :)
08:02<TrueBrain>have fun working kkmic :)
08:02<@planetmaker>To show them that one cares. To give them an idea.
08:02<@planetmaker>Which is nice. Tremendously nicer than 'dead end'
08:02<TrueBrain>planetmaker: well, then I suggest you move it to the devzone, or keep dihedral happy :P
08:02<TrueBrain>it is his domain
08:03<kkmic>It was a nice chat guys, see ya
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08:05<TrueBrain>planetmaker: talking about our "dead end" , it is the same as BaNaNaS. All people want to do is make small changes to the code to 'improve it', without them understanding that sometimes a piece of code went so far the wrong way, it is at a dead end and should be rewritten. In the example of BaNaNaS, the full source is available, yet nobody wants to do it
08:06<TrueBrain>it often makes me sad; seems people are only interested in helping out with the 'easy' stuff
08:06<@planetmaker>TrueBrain: mind that I DO take your word on it, or at least have no doubt that it definitely will be the better solution
08:06<TrueBrain>the main reason we still have the copy of the LW machine running, is because of WT :(
08:06<TrueBrain>I cannot move it :(
08:06<TrueBrain>it is _that_ bad :P
08:07<TrueBrain>and tnx planetmaker :)
08:07<@planetmaker>My only concern - all what I said here today, and also other occasions - it's mostly that if it's accessible, people can see it.
08:08<@planetmaker>And often even seeing the old attempt is a good study case before re-designing it from scratch
08:08<@planetmaker>It teaches. What works. What doesn't work. What somewhat works
08:08<TrueBrain>if someone is truly interested, I have many many test-cases :P
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08:08<TrueBrain>but 90% stop caring when they understand that have to make some kind of design document first :(
08:08<@planetmaker>Well, sure. But you know how it goes: Before making a commitment, it's much easier and nicer if one can get an idea about the scope, size, extend and type of problems at hand
08:08<TrueBrain>I guess I am a bit grumpy when it comes to that ;)
08:09<Xaroth>bitter vet!
08:09<@planetmaker>yes :-P
08:09<@planetmaker>cookie? ;-)
08:09<TrueBrain>but so yeah ... just ask if you want to know something; that is rarely a real issue :)
08:09<TrueBrain>ugh, those ugly amazon cookies? They are old! :P
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09:11<dihedral><TrueBrain> dihedral: tnx a lot :D I am still out of domains :( <- i'm not :-P
09:11<dihedral>still have too :-P
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09:14<TrueBrain>@kick howdoyousolveaproblemlikemaria like this
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09:38<Eddi|zuHause>i've done so much refactoring now, i probably made everything even worse...
09:41<@Alberth>nothing a 'revert' cannot fix :D
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09:45<@peter1138>or the patch to remove all bugs
09:45<@peter1138>dihedral, are they like cubicles?
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09:49<fjb|tab>Moin Terkhen .
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11:23<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23529 /trunk/src/ (12 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: make all widget enum values unique and make them include the files they need to compile
11:25<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23530 /trunk/src/ (waypoint_gui.cpp widgets/waypoint_widget.h): -Codechange: begin unify the naming of widgets and add comments to them, in this case the waypoint view widgets
11:27<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23531 /trunk/src/ (36 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: document and rename widgets to be consistent and understandable
11:29<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23532 /trunk/src/ (viewport_gui.cpp widgets/viewport_widget.h): -Codechange: unify widget naming of (extra) viewport
11:32<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23533 /trunk/src/ (group_gui.cpp widgets/group_widget.h): -Codechange: document and rename widgets to be consistent and understandable
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11:39<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23534 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: document and rename widgets to be consistent and understandable
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11:42<CIA-6>OpenTTD: planetmaker * r23535 /trunk/src/ (transparency_gui.cpp widgets/transparency_widget.h): -Codechange: unify widget naming of transparency toolbar
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11:49<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23536 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: document and rename widgets to be consistent and understandable
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11:53<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23537 /trunk/src/widgets/ (rail_widget.h road_widget.h sign_widget.h subsidy_widget.h): -Fix (r23529): typo in the word 'because' (tnx to Alberth for noticing)
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11:57<CIA-6>OpenTTD: planetmaker * r23538 /trunk/src/ (tree_gui.cpp widgets/tree_widget.h): -Codechange: Consistent naming of widgets in tree plant gui
11:57<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23539 /trunk/src/ (depot_gui.cpp widgets/depot_widget.h): -Codechange: prevent conflict between widget naming of (vehicle) depots and vehicle details
11:59<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23540 /trunk/src/ (10 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: unify and document vehicle widgets
12:01<Hirundo>collaborative widget renaming commit spree (CWRCS) going on?
12:03<Ammler>hehe, you fix typoes in the comments :-P
12:09<TrueBrain>they are as important as any other :)
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12:15<CIA-6>OpenTTD: planetmaker * r23541 /trunk/src/ (3 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: Consistent naming of widgets in NewGRF debug window
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12:23<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23542 /trunk/src/ (town_gui.cpp widgets/town_widget.h): -Codechange: unify and document town related widgets
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12:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: planetmaker * r23543 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_gui.cpp widgets/newgrf_widget.h): -Codechange: Document and name consistently widgets of NewGRF window
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13:01<Amis>Hai o/
13:01<Amis>If I'm creating a scenarion where can I set it to be "Funding only" regarding industries?
13:02<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23544 /trunk/src/ (9 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: document and rename widgets to be consistent and understandable
13:02<@Alberth>you set it before you create the scenario, I think
13:03<@Alberth>Finally I can understand widgets :p
13:04<Amis>Alberth, the options are greyed out
13:04<Amis>I can't change em
13:04<@planetmaker>Amis: yes. Only prior to map creation
13:04<@planetmaker>thus prior you start creating the scenario
13:04<Amis>Hmm? :/
13:04<@Alberth>it is not in the options, it is in the create-world window
13:04<Amis>I'm saying that one
13:04<Amis>Both "Off"
13:05<Amis>In the scenario editor
13:06<CIA-6>OpenTTD: planetmaker * r23545 /trunk/src/ (object_gui.cpp widgets/object_widget.h): -Codechange: Consistently name widgets in build object window
13:06<Amis>I guess the option is missing
13:06<Amis>Where can I report it?
13:07<Amis>Got the bug tracker
13:07<@Alberth>I am wondering why it is the case. I cannot see a problem, but quite likely I am overlooking something
13:08<Amis>Alberth, click Scenario Editor
13:08<Amis>There's no way of setting the industries to funding only
13:08*Alberth knows
13:08<Amis>So if I play the map there will be new industries over time
13:08<@Alberth>the question is why that is the case
13:08<Amis>And you can't disable it
13:08<Amis>When you generate a map you can disable it
13:09<Amis>But that's not the case with the scenario editor
13:10<Amis>So it's a "missing feature"
13:10<Amis>Unless I can set it in the console
13:11<@Alberth>I would assume that it was disabled for a reason, the problem is that I don't know that reason
13:13<@Alberth>even if the console allows it, it is still a missing feature imho, you should be able to set scenario properties without messing with consoles
13:13<Amis>Gonna put it into the trac
13:14<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23546 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: document and rename widgets to be consistent and understandable
13:14<Amis>Have to register
13:15<TrueBrain>we don't use trac :P
13:15<TrueBrain>(Well, we do, but read-only)
13:15<Amis>I ment Flyspray
13:20<Amis>It seems you can actually "change" it in a way
13:20<Amis>The settings of a new scenario defaults to the current difficult settings
13:21<Amis>But you can't change it after the scenario is created
13:21<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23547 /trunk/src/ (8 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: document and rename widgets to be consistent and understandable
13:21<@Alberth>yes, and I think it is for consistency reasons
13:22<@Alberth>that is, you inherit ALL settings from the main menu, rather than only some of them can be changed afterwards
13:23<Amis>But you should be able to change it
13:23<Amis>I mean
13:23<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23548 /trunk/src/ (toolbar_gui.cpp widgets/toolbar_widget.h): -Codechange: unify and document toolbar widgets
13:23<Amis>You create a noice scenario the n"oh shi-" you started with the wrong settings
13:23<Amis>Editor should about editing stuff
13:24<Amis>(like disabling industry spawning)
13:24<@Alberth>the SE is quite under-developed
13:25<CIA-6>OpenTTD: planetmaker * r23549 /trunk/src/ (order_gui.cpp widgets/order_widget.h): -Codechange: Document and consistently name widgets of order GUI
13:27<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23550 /trunk/src/ (osk_gui.cpp widgets/osk_widget.h): -Codechange: unify naming of the on screen keyboard widgets
13:27<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23551 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: document and rename widgets to be consistent and understandable
13:31<@planetmaker>so... which files are free?
13:32<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23552 /trunk/src/ (news_gui.cpp widgets/news_widget.h): -Codechange: unify naming of the news widgets
13:33<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23553 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Fix: avoid naming conflict in widget enums
13:33<@Alberth>Amis: it has been this way since nov 2007 at least, and probably longer
13:34<Amis>Alberth, it didn't matter before because there was no "funding only" option
13:34<Amis>I know it's not that new but it's just that SE slipped through the update without being modified
13:34<@Alberth>but you did have different industry densities
13:35<Amis>But that did not affect spawning rate
13:35<Amis>I guess
13:35<@Alberth>could be
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13:42<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23554 /trunk/src/widgets/ (6 files): -Codechange: some minor consistency fixes
13:43<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23555 /trunk/src/widgets/ (5 files): -Fix (r23554): save before commit
13:43<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23556 /trunk/src/ (rail_gui.cpp widgets/rail_widget.h): -Codechange: unify rail widget naming and document them
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13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: translators * r23557 /trunk/src/lang/ (4 files in 2 dirs):
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: german - 9 changes by NG
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 110 changes by Tucalipe
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: swedish - 10 changes by Zuu
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: urdu - 160 changes by haider
13:47<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23558 /trunk/src/widgets/rail_widget.h: -Fix (r23556): ctrl-z too few ;)
13:49<TrueBrain>so ~30 commits for name changes
13:52<CIA-6>OpenTTD: planetmaker * r23559 /trunk/src/ (road_gui.cpp widgets/road_widget.h): -Codechange: Document and name consistently road build widgets
13:52<@planetmaker>commits are for free ;-)
13:55<@Alberth>yeah, but what about all those bits that you use? :)
13:56<@planetmaker>they're enslaved :-P
13:57<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23560 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: final pieces of consistency through widgets
13:57<@planetmaker>one commit to rule them all, one commit to find them, one commit to bring them all and in the darkness bind them.
13:57<@planetmaker>or along those lines :-P
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14:02<TrueBrain>no more tea for you my friend :D
14:08<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23561 /trunk/src/widgets/graph_widget.h: -Codechange: forgot to document 1 widget enum
14:09<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23562 /trunk/src/widgets/company_widget.h: -Codechange: don't be lazy with the spacebar
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14:13<fjb|tab>Moin andythenorth.
14:13*andythenorth had another baby
14:14<andythenorth>no name yet
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14:15<TrueBrain>lol @ andy :D
14:15<TrueBrain>how sweet :)
14:19<Rubidium>he could just name the baby boy
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14:19<Rubidium> ;)
14:23<TrueBrain>can someone explain to me WHY I opened that link? :(
14:24<Rubidium>the only reason I can think of: because you like Boy George
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14:25<fjb|tab>Curiosity kills the TrueBrain.
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14:29<fjb|tab>planetmaker: How about walking to the Brocken?
14:29<@planetmaker>In principle: why not? :-) But how snowy is it?
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14:31<fjb|tab>A bit. The railway closed its service, a bit windy, too.
14:32<fjb|tab>The hotel is also closed.
14:33<fjb|tab>Speed of the wind is about 120km/h.
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14:36<wyrzym>iam new in ottd
14:36<wyrzym>and i have a problem
14:36<@Alberth>planetmaker: I thought about the industry settings, and imho enabling it in the world-generation window in the SE makes no sense, as there is no OK button
14:37<@Alberth>wyrzym: please tell us :)
14:37<wyrzym>whene i start the game i cannot build anything
14:37<@Alberth>wyrzym: and welcome :)
14:37<wyrzym>any hint?
14:37<@planetmaker>start in 1950
14:37<@planetmaker>that's the problem :-)
14:37<wyrzym>old ttd alow to build form 1910
14:37<wyrzym>if i good remember
14:38<@planetmaker>OpenTTD allows that, too.
14:38<@Alberth>no, TTDX started in 1950 too
14:38<@planetmaker>But the default vehicles are not available then.
14:38<@Alberth>you can start earlier, but you have to activate some early vehicle newgrfs before
14:38<@planetmaker>And the vehicles of OpenTTD by default are the same wrt introduction dates as TTD
14:38<wyrzym>so, if i want to play from 1920 i have to...? download models? :>
14:39<@planetmaker>online content
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14:39<@Alberth>evenink Wolf01
14:39<wyrzym>GRF ?
14:39<fjb|tab>Moin Wolf01.
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14:43<fjb|tab>With the right vehicles set you can start in 1700. But horse carriages tend to get boring after a while.
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15:30<@Alberth>congratulations andy!
15:30<andythenorth>I didn't do much tbh
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15:35<@planetmaker>hey andythenorth, congratz! :-)
15:35<Rubidium>congratulations andy and motherof(childof(andy)) ;)
15:35<andythenorth>apparently we're stopping at 2
15:36<@planetmaker>lol :-)
15:36<andythenorth>my view is, once you figure out a problem, you should scale the solution :P
15:36<andythenorth>apparently this is not applicable in this case
15:36<@Alberth>9 months is so very much fixed :)
15:36<@planetmaker>not sure that's a thing to discuss your wife hours after giving birth ;-)
15:40<fjb|tab>Congratulations andythenorth.
15:40<@planetmaker>I hope all are well, andythenorth :-)
15:40<@planetmaker>Did you decide on a name yet?
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15:42<Rubidium>I did suggest boy, and boy did TB like the like for that suggestion ;)
15:42<andythenorth>no name yet
15:43<andythenorth>also - now is probably a good time to work on FIRS
15:43<andythenorth>as the toddler is asleep
15:43<andythenorth>and the baby + wife are 50 miles away
15:43<frosch123>50 miles? you are quite living in the woods
15:44<Rubidium>probably no decent hospital in the vicinity
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15:47<Xaroth>grats andythenorth
15:47<fjb|tab>Numbering the children would be easier than naming them.
15:47<Xaroth>and wouldn't it be wise to stock up on some sleep, seeing you won't be seeing much of that the next few months :P
15:48<Xaroth>fjb|tab: 1 of 9, 2 of 9 .. gets a bit awkward if 7 isn't a girl though..
15:48<@Alberth>fjb|tab: but you'd get so many children called 'one' in a class
15:48<Xaroth>Alberth: that just requires a N of N suffix :P
15:49<Xaroth>and the motto "Resistance is futile" for the local sheriff dept..
15:49<andythenorth>fjb|tab: funny you should mention that
15:49<andythenorth>the name of the first one literally translates as 'first' from Sanskrit
15:49<andythenorth>there is another traditional sanskrit name which translates as 'second child'
15:50<andythenorth>but my wife has ruled it out :(
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15:52<Xaroth>andythenorth: wasn't Sanskrit one of those languages that has a lot of words with the same meaning?
15:52<fjb|tab>Alberth: We had 3 Michaels in our class. And you could use a scheme of subnumbering: 1.1, 1.2, and etc...
15:53<frosch123>there was this story about the woman who named all her children the same, and used the father's name for distinguishing :p
15:54<@Alberth>my grand father was also called Albert, so we had a 'senior' and a 'junior' Albert :)
15:54<Rubidium>andythenorth: use Kofi (then you always know what day he was born)
16:02<TrueBrain>concratz andythenorth :)
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16:46*andythenorth -> bed
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17:04<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23563 /trunk/src/strgen/strgen.cpp: -Cleanup: remove useless global variable from strgen; it would always be false at the point it would be read
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17:29<Cardiz>How many players were in OpenTTD before the some Yogscast's action
17:29<@Alberth>we don't know
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17:30<Cardiz>But well, 25k of new players is still nice.
17:30<@Alberth>if they all stay, yes :)
17:30<Cardiz>Well I doubt that. :(
17:31<Cardiz>The game can be a little complicated at start, and mostly people give up at the first minutes and uninstall the game.
17:31<@Alberth>some will stick probably
17:31<Cardiz>I'll be honest: The only reason why I am playing OpenTTD is the graphics.
17:32<@Alberth>the graphics?
17:32<@Alberth>hmm, maybe I am too old :) I play for building tracks and stations, shuffling stuff around to make room for more tracks/trains
17:35*fjb|tab feels like Alberth.
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17:35<@planetmaker>Seems there are many ways to enjoy the game :-)
17:35<Chris_Booth>hi all
17:35<@planetmaker>hey Chris_Booth
17:36<Chris_Booth>hi planetmaker long time no talk
17:36<Wolf01>o/ Chris_Booth
17:36*Alberth is glad most of the 117 do not respond :)
17:36<Chris_Booth>hi Wolf01
17:36<Chris_Booth>117 highlights would be hell
17:37<@Alberth>lol :)
17:37<frosch123>Cardiz: while yogscast gave a short peak, the download numbers for 1.0.0 were a lot higher
17:37<frosch123>it was featured on multiple smaller sites
17:38<frosch123>while every of those peaks were not as big as the yogscast one, they were more in total
17:38<@Alberth>I once sent a chain email around. I needed to send it 15 times or so in 24 hours, so I sent one email every hour + something, back to original sender :p
17:38<Wolf01>[23:35:33] <planetmaker> Seems there are many ways to enjoy the game :-) <- I like to play old savegames to un-entangle the tracks, starting a new game is boring
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17:39<@Alberth>Wolf01: oh that's nice, I do that sometimes with random savegames from the forum
17:40<@planetmaker>:-) yeah, can be nice
17:40<@planetmaker>when I play on our public server, one thing I enjoy most is improve or exand a live hub without interrupting flow
17:40<@planetmaker>blocking all entry and re-building is something many can :-)
17:41<@planetmaker>re-building while keeping traffic and not crashing trains... takes longer but is more fun
17:41<Chris_Booth>planetmaker: the road worker
17:41<Wolf01>I do all my changes live
17:41*Alberth nods, much more fun
17:42<Chris_Booth>second that
17:42<Wolf01>and if I find the section too hard, I just put some bypass routes
17:43<frosch123>planetmaker: that approach has the prerequisite that you start fixing the problem before it is completely jammed up :p
17:45<Chris_Booth>but if that is the case you have bigger issues that the one junction you are working on
17:46<Cardiz>Railway networks are my personal horrors.
17:46<Wolf01>I once figured out how to fix a >300 maglev 6 tracks mainline, which was blocked... was like playing this game:
17:47<Cardiz>How do I make trains and cars not slow down when driving up the hill?
17:47<Cardiz>In some servers they don't slow down.
17:47<Chris_Booth>change the acceleration model
17:47<Chris_Booth>there are 2 in game orignal and realistic
17:48<Chris_Booth>you can also chage slope gradient
17:48<Cardiz>I changed the slope gradient to zero.
17:48<Chris_Booth>then change the acceleration model to realisitic
17:49<@Alberth>Cardiz: it's much easier to just play at a flat surface then :)
17:50<Cardiz>I cannot make the world flat.
17:50<Cardiz>It costs too much.
17:50<@Alberth>start the scenario editor, make a flat map, save, play
17:50<@Alberth>or even just a heightmap with 1 colour :p
17:51<@Alberth>but imho, mountains and break-downs add to the challenge :D
17:52<@Alberth>especially in arctic climate
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17:52<Cardiz>Chris, changing the accelration to reallistic worked! Thank you!
17:52<@Alberth>good night all
17:52<Chris_Booth>np Cardiz
17:53<Chris_Booth>your train will not slow in turns so much now
17:53<Wolf01>'night Alberth
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17:53<+glx>but it will slow down on slopes :)
17:54<Cardiz>It doesn't.
17:55<+glx>check >2 tiles slope
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17:56<Cardiz>I'll check.
17:56<Cardiz>Right now.
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18:00<Chris_Booth>anyone know any nice cargodest servers?
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18:04<Cardiz_>Well yeah glx, you're right.
18:04<Cardiz_>The train slows down on >2 tiles slope.
18:05<Cardiz_>But there are rarely any >2 tiles slopes in game.
18:05<+glx>but it's still better than slow down in turns
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18:05<+glx>it's realistic :)
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18:13<Chris_Booth>you can always add more locos to stop slowing
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18:53<Wolf01>'night all
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21:02<CIA-6>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r23564 /trunk/src/ (pathfinder/yapf/yapf_rail.cpp pbs.cpp): -Fix [FS#4888]: Extending a path reservation starting at a partially reserved rail station could fail.
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---Logclosed Sat Dec 17 00:00:33 2011