Back to Home / #openttd / 2011 / 12 / Prev Day | Next Day
#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-12-22

---Logopened Thu Dec 22 00:00:50 2011
00:08-!-Pixa [~pixa@] has joined #openttd
00:10-!-KingPixaIII [~pixa@] has joined #openttd
00:10-!-LordPixaII [~pixa@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
00:16-!-Pixa [~pixa@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
00:21-!-KingPixaIII [~pixa@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
00:23-!-LordPixaII [~pixa@] has joined #openttd
00:41-!-DayDreamer [] has joined #openttd
00:42-!-DayDreamer [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
00:43-!-DayDreamer [] has joined #openttd
00:47-!-DayDreamer [] has left #openttd []
00:56-!-Eddi|zuHause [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
00:56-!-Eddi|zuHause [] has joined #openttd
01:14-!-dlr365 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
01:17-!-sla_ro|master [slaco@] has joined #openttd
01:30-!-Prof_Frink [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
02:29-!-sla_ro|master [slaco@] has quit [Quit: Sla Mutant Co-Op for Renegade - coming back soon]
02:38-!-supermop_ [] has quit [Quit: supermop_]
02:51-!-fjb|tab [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
02:51-!-rhaeder [] has joined #openttd
02:53-!-Alberth [] has joined #openttd
02:53-!-mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ
03:02-!-fjb|tab [] has joined #openttd
03:09<appe>stinkyfax: you can fund it.
03:10<appe>stinkyfax: check out the data under the "Tropical" section.
03:12-!-Neon [] has joined #openttd
03:14-!-Pulec [] has joined #openttd
03:49-!-Progman [] has joined #openttd
03:59-!-|Jeroen| [] has joined #openttd
04:05-!-LordPixaII is now known as Pixa
04:10-!-Adambean [~AdamR@] has joined #openttd
04:19-!-DDR [~chatzilla@] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 8.0/20111115183541]]
04:28-!-perk11 [~perk11@] has joined #openttd
04:48<@peter1138>big fireworks
04:53-!-Neon [] has quit [Quit: Python is way too complicated... I prefer doing it quickly in C.]
04:55-!-mahmoud [] has joined #openttd
05:00<stinkyfax>appe: i can't see water tower in the list :( though there are water towers in other towns
05:05-!-perk11 [~perk11@] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier.]
05:11-!-|Jeroen| [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
05:15<@Alberth>appe: open eyes and look at the 4th entry, perhaps?
05:15<@Alberth>oh stinkyfax ^
05:19-!-pjpe [] has quit [Quit: ajax IRC Client]
05:30-!-andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
05:30<andythenorth>interesting physics problem
05:30<andythenorth>big log trucks have planetary reduction gears in the wheel hubs
05:30<andythenorth>the gears can be swapped out for different ratios
05:31<andythenorth>to suit, e.g. hauling on steep grades (slow), or hauling on level roads (hammer down)
05:31<andythenorth>how do I fake that in game?
05:31<@peter1138>gear refit ;p
05:31<@peter1138>ottd doesn't simulate gears, so it doesn't matter
05:32<andythenorth>but what props do I change? TE?
05:32<@peter1138>max-speed & TE, usually
05:33<andythenorth>wonder if it will suck
05:34<@peter1138>automatic or manual?
05:35<andythenorth>transmission? Or changing of props?
05:36<@peter1138>property changing
05:36<andythenorth>manual maybe
05:36<andythenorth>haven't decided
05:36<andythenorth>thinking about varying number of trailers too
05:36<@peter1138>if it's automatic then you won't notice it, so just give it high TE and high max speed
05:41<andythenorth>sounds complicated to play?
05:44*andythenorth ponders a French economy for FIRS
05:44<andythenorth>to go with French trainset
05:44<andythenorth>what's French?
05:48<@planetmaker>crèpes, vin, champagner, boisin, ...? :-)
05:48<@peter1138>planetmaker, is there a 32bpp-ez opengfx devzone yet? ;)
05:48<@planetmaker>I didn't create a project yet
05:49<@planetmaker>There's the existing project by Geektoo which creates the extra grf as 32bpp
05:49<@peter1138>extra grf?
05:49<@planetmaker>of the base sets
05:49<@planetmaker>there you can't simply sprite-replace
05:49<@planetmaker>as you don't know when the underlaying grf changes
05:50<@planetmaker>thus you better provide your own grf (ogfxe_extra.grf / openttd.grf)
05:50<@peter1138>that's a sort of spanner in the works for 32bpp-only basesets. hmm.
05:51<@planetmaker>though.... I offered the 32bpp people to give ample notification of changes in the sprite numbers of the extra grf
05:51<@planetmaker>it's not like it changes all the time
05:51<@planetmaker>but indeed, for this reason a 8bpp + 32bpp joint baseset makes sense
05:52<andythenorth>rename the brewery to Vineyard?
05:52<andythenorth>for French
05:53<@planetmaker>dunno... who suggested yesterday to first create a makefile which can create sprites from the blender files directly? I guess it was TB. And that makes sense
05:53<@planetmaker>Though one could already collect proper blender files
05:53<@peter1138>me & tb
05:53<@planetmaker>I very much like that idea
05:53<@peter1138>i talked about making stuff from source using a tracking table with offsets
05:53<@planetmaker>And it will be feasible
05:53<@peter1138>i kinda implied blender source but didn't meantion it
05:54<@planetmaker>yeah :-)
05:54<@planetmaker>It needs a bit of work, and I don't yet know whether and how well blender can be run as non-gui scripted application
05:54<@planetmaker>gimp can. But also has some issues with that ;-)
05:54<@peter1138>still need a concenus on png-in-tar-file vs custom-container
05:55<@planetmaker>that's your call :-)
05:55<@planetmaker>imho don't let yourself guide by existing sprites. Just create a sane spec
05:56<@planetmaker>with blender files present, and giving wrong lighting, dimensions, ... of existing, it will need re-rendering of most anyway
05:56-!-Biolunar [] has joined #openttd
05:56<@peter1138>but grfcodec is kind of a pain :)
05:56<@planetmaker>feasible, probably even relatively easy, if blender files and definitions are there
05:56<@planetmaker>why grfcodec?
05:56<@planetmaker>you want them really within the grf itself?
05:57<@peter1138>just as an example of a tool needed to put sprites in a container
05:57<@planetmaker>well... so within a tar won't do?
05:57<@planetmaker>maybe tar in tar?
05:57<@planetmaker>if that would make it easier?
05:57<@peter1138>within a tar is ok, but our filescanning isn't geared up to be used this way
05:58<@planetmaker>yes :S
05:58<@peter1138>what i'm thinking of is checking for 'related' files when *opening* a grf file
05:59<@peter1138>then LoadNextSprite can check the related files
06:00<@peter1138>i.e. ogfx1_base.grf -> ogfx1_base_2x.tar & ogfx1_base_4x.tar
06:00<@planetmaker>as a new 'property' or feature for the grf files?
06:01<@peter1138>implied filenames, no new property. it needs to work for non-newgrfs too :)
06:01<@planetmaker>like base sets? yeah
06:01<@peter1138>base grfs, yes
06:04*SpComb replaces newgrf with lua
06:04<@peter1138>do it
06:05<@peter1138>i could use a file slot for each png :p
06:06<SpComb>I was just playing PewPew, and started wondering if it'd be fun to write a clone in OpenGL/Qt
06:06<@planetmaker>SpComb: if you do that, do it properly: use xml and let it define the single voxels bit by bit
06:06<SpComb>but then it'd be JS, not lua
06:06<andythenorth>croissant factory
06:07<@planetmaker>hm... jummi
06:07<@peter1138>openlocomotion's going well
06:07<andythenorth>BN factory?
06:07*SpComb has never done OpenGL directly
06:09<SpComb>bt understanding it would be useful for writing animated eye-candy GUIs
06:09<SpComb>which is what you tend to get paid for these days
06:09-!-andythenorth [] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
06:09<stinkyfax>SpComb: u get payed for gui in html5 with javascript, not opengl :)
06:10<SpComb>but that html5 gui stuff uses OpenGL
06:10<SpComb>in the background
06:10<stinkyfax>aye, and opengl uses assembly, so make an assembly wrap?
06:11<SpComb>done that already
06:11<SpComb>althoguh, well, not x86 or GPU
06:13<stinkyfax>i afraid people playing TTD care the least about graphics :)
06:14<SpComb>they care the most
06:14<SpComb>doing loving pixel-pushing by hand, rather than just rendering 3D models by machine
06:15<stinkyfax>ok, good luck with that. if you need some help let me know, I did a coursework with opengl, so i might remember few bits, buut mostly not :D
06:15<stinkyfax>3d pushes pixel by pixel as well but does it many more times :)))
06:16<@planetmaker>stinkyfax: write an OpenGL blitter for OpenTTD...
06:16<stinkyfax>i think u should focus on delivering 2d first :)
06:16<@planetmaker>and it's "you", not "u"
06:16<SpComb>planetmaker: didn't someone do that already?
06:16<@peter1138>opengl blitter, hehe
06:17<stinkyfax>planetmaker: but it's an irc chat, why be so official?
06:17<@peter1138>r u shore u 1t 2 b slakin jus cuz its on irc
06:18<@peter1138>planetmaker, I feel dirty :(
06:19<stinkyfax>peter1138: there is always a reasonable border
06:20*planetmaker gives a language gargle solvent to peter
06:20<fjb|tab>stinkyfax: Not everybody is a native English speaker here.
06:20<@planetmaker>I'd bet the majority isn't ;-)
06:21*planetmaker looks at op list and finds... two
06:22<@peter1138>I'd bet stinkyfax isn't :)
06:22<@peter1138>"u" doesn't look very native English to me ;)
06:22<fjb|tab>And most are old enough to not have to kewl anymore.
06:22<stinkyfax>I'm not. But it has nothing to do to native English
06:23<@planetmaker>that's exactly the reason to write proper English, though
06:24<stinkyfax>this slang is common among gamers, internet lovers, etc, not native English people
06:24<@planetmaker>it's about making it easy for people from all around the globe to understand this channel
06:24<SpComb>#openttd - your internet lovers :)
06:24<@planetmaker>"all flies eat shit - so just dig in?"
06:25<stinkyfax>if only I was a fly
06:25<stinkyfax>cya (see you) later.
06:25*fjb|tab bets that there are more train and truck lovers in here than internet lovers.
06:26<__ln__>stinkyfax: what's common is irrelevant, because the channel topic states "English only".
06:31<@planetmaker> <-- anyone fancy a quick check whether it works alright?
06:35<@peter1138>the station triggers don't seem to work
06:35<@Alberth>stinkyfax: slang tends to get in the way of clearly explaining problems in a precise manner
06:39-!-rhaeder [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
06:41-!-rhaeder [] has joined #openttd
06:41<@planetmaker>peter1138: got an example (I'm not aware I changed any of that code...)
06:42<@planetmaker>or could you check whether it's the same behaviour with 0.8.0?
06:42<@planetmaker>by just replacing newgrfs?
06:43-!-TGYoshi [~TGYoshi@] has joined #openttd
06:44-!-mkv` [] has joined #openttd
06:46-!-Svish [] has joined #openttd
06:46<@peter1138>planetmaker, station triggers aren't implemented ;)
06:47-!-Svish is now known as Guest21371
06:48-!-andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
06:48-!-Progman [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
06:48-!-Guest21371 [] has left #openttd []
06:51-!-Markavian` [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
06:52-!-rhaeder1 [] has joined #openttd
06:57-!-rhaeder [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
06:57<andythenorth>cheese is french
06:59<@planetmaker>or Swiss
07:01<andythenorth>maybe a 'Euro' economy is sufficient :P
07:01<@Alberth>The French don't have cheese, they have 'fromage'
07:01<@peter1138>ah oui oui, le fromage
07:04-!-fjb|tab is now known as Guest21372
07:04-!-Guest21372 [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
07:04-!-fjb|tab [] has joined #openttd
07:08-!-rhaeder1 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
07:12<andythenorth>trucks were crappy in 1910
07:14-!-tokai|mdlx [] has joined #openttd
07:18<@peter1138>and barges
07:20-!-tokai [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
07:21<andythenorth>barge trains
07:22<andythenorth>does the game use short ton, metric ton, or long ton?
07:23<@planetmaker>nfo uses iirc uk tons
07:23<@planetmaker>whatever that is
07:24<@planetmaker>for the sake of newgrf programming I use them with a conversion factor 1:1 - though OpenTTD's gui does a correct conversion depending on the unit settings you chose
07:27<andythenorth>"A century ago, trucks were hardly more than an idea among forward-thinking vehicle manufac- turers. Long-distance haulage was undertaken by rail and water, local distribution by horse-drawn wagon. There was simply no market for trucks, the pundits noted. But optimists saw an unex- ploited business opportunity."
07:34<Eddi|zuHause>sounds horribly over-glorified
07:36-!-Biolunar [] has quit [Quit: All your IRC are belong to us!]
07:36<andythenorth>from a Scania 'centenary of Scania' PDF :P
07:37<andythenorth>so basically trucks are crap until about 1930
07:38<andythenorth>although you could haul 120t with three traction engines at 5mph
07:43-!-vargadanis [~vargadani@] has joined #openttd
07:43<vargadanis>well hello TTD Fans :)
07:45*planetmaker favours openttd ;-)
07:45*Alberth never played TTD, only TTDX and a lot of OpenTTD :)
07:46<@planetmaker>Alberth: ttd == ttdx, if I'm not mistaken ;-)
07:46<@planetmaker>TT is the predecessor
07:46<@Alberth>ah, ok. Thanks :)
07:47<TrueBrain>never understood why
07:48<KenjiE20>mine was DeLuXe
07:48<TrueBrain>so TTDLX?
07:48<KenjiE20>always installed to C:\MPS\TTDLX
07:53-!-Dani_ [~vargadani@] has joined #openttd
08:00-!-vargadanis [~vargadani@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
08:00-!-Dani_ [~vargadani@] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
08:00-!-Dani_ [~vargadani@] has joined #openttd
08:11<Dani_>how do I share orders between trucks?
08:11<@Alberth>clone the orders
08:12<Dani_>will that mean that if I change the order on the 'lead' truck the orders will change among all the trucks that share the order?
08:12<@Alberth>any truck that uses the orders will do, they are shared, you know :)
08:14-!-Svish [] has joined #openttd
08:14<Svish>anyone here?
08:14-!-Svish is now known as Guest21382
08:15<@planetmaker>I think 175 people are here... theoretically
08:15<@planetmaker>But... no, it's all bots, really
08:15-!-Guest21382 is now known as Svish
08:16<@Alberth>but if you want to know something, our bots are quite smart :)
08:16<@DorpsGek>roger roger
08:17*Alberth pets DorpsGek
08:17<Svish>how do you set up a dedicated server? do I have to run the game normally first and set all the settings in the title screen there, and then exit and start as dedicated server? and how do I set settings which are not in the Advanced Settings tree?
08:18<@planetmaker>edit your cfg to suit your needs and start openttd by ./openttd -D -c configfile
08:19<Svish>ah, so I can create a copy of the config file and use that specifically when I start the server?
08:20<@planetmaker>you don't need to create a copy really. You can also use the same cfg. But might be nicer to not overwrite it with your single player settings
08:23-!-Devroush [] has joined #openttd
08:31<Svish>is it possible to download the config of a running server?
08:32<Dani_>OMG! Shared orders for the win!
08:32<@Alberth>not as file, but the config is part of the savegame
08:32<@planetmaker>Svish: not really
08:33<@planetmaker>but every savegame / map has the config within it which it was created with
08:33<@planetmaker>just need to check all interesting settings
08:33<Svish>so I can just use the save thing in a multiplayer game and then open up the save file?
08:34<Svish>hm seems opening up a save file wasn't just a matter of opening it with 7zip :p
08:34*andythenorth tries to have a nap
08:34-!-andythenorth [] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
08:35<@planetmaker>Svish: what do you expect to see then? It's binary data...
08:35<@Alberth>Svish: 'opening' can only be done by loading it in the the game
08:40-!-andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
08:40-!-andythenorth [] has quit []
08:40<Svish>well, since you wrote "every savegame has the config within it", I assumed it was an archive file including that file or something :)
08:41<Svish>found I could write listsettings in the console when connected to a server though. although it's a pain to look through it... but at least I can see it :)
08:42<Svish>how can I set the autoclean options so that a player can be go and have a decent night of sleep before returning without having their company disappear?
08:43<@Alberth>you want your users to sleep? :D
08:44<@Alberth> there is probably more, but I never looked into MP config stuff
08:44<Svish>well, I would like to be able to sleep myself yes, and then come back to continue :p
08:50<Svish>how long is a game month in regular time?
08:50-!-sla_ro|master [slaco@] has joined #openttd
08:50<@Alberth>you may want to extend the page for your question :D
08:52-!-fjb|tab [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
08:54<Svish>so 24 hours would be roughly 105 game years
08:54<V453000>about that yes :)
08:55<Eddi|zuHause>that is one whole game (from 1950 to 2050)
08:55<Svish>is it possible to extend this somehow? or perhaps just stretch out the time so that you get new vehicles slower or something?
08:56<Eddi|zuHause>no official way (yet)
08:56<Eddi|zuHause>but unofficial "daylength patches"
08:56<Svish>thinking something along the lines of Civilization 5 where you have quick games, longer and epic games
08:56-!-dlr365 [] has joined #openttd
08:57<Eddi|zuHause>being "unofficial" makes them very ill-suited for multiplayer, though
08:58<@Alberth>you can play until the year 5000000 or so
08:59<@Alberth>but you don't get new vehicles after 20XX-somthing
08:59<Eddi|zuHause>you should start in 2050 in this case, so you won't have any development at all
08:59<Svish>the reload_cfg, is that for it to reload the cfg when game is restarted?
08:59<Eddi|zuHause>that's for when you modified the file
08:59<Svish>ah, so it will reload it everytime I change it?
09:00<Eddi|zuHause>no, by default all changes to the file are ignored (and overwritten)
09:00<Eddi|zuHause>reload_cfg will override that default
09:04-!-andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
09:06-!-Lakie [~Lakie@] has joined #openttd
09:06-!-andythenorth [] has quit []
09:12-!-Dani__ [~vargadani@] has joined #openttd
09:19-!-Dani_ [~vargadani@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
09:21-!-TomyLobo2 [] has joined #openttd
09:23-!-Dani__ [~vargadani@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
09:27-!-TomyLobo [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
09:27-!-TomyLobo2 is now known as TomyLobo
09:27-!-DayDreamer [] has joined #openttd
09:31<Svish>hm, I cannot start server... is there a log somewhere with why?
09:33-!-andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
09:35<Eddi|zuHause>console output?
09:41<Svish>well, in the console it just said could not startserver
09:41<Svish>when I start the serverfrom the windows console, itopens a new window which flashes some error and closes again
09:43<Eddi|zuHause>try setting debug_level net=2 on the console
09:43<Eddi|zuHause>(the ingame console i mean)
09:43<Eddi|zuHause>(and possibly "developer 2")
09:46<Svish>can I do that in the config file?
09:47<Eddi|zuHause>the debug level cannot be set in the config file
09:47<Eddi|zuHause>but from the command line
09:48<Eddi|zuHause>start with "openttd.exe -d net=2" or similar
09:53<Svish>aah, you can open that ingame console while in the title screen too
09:58-!-mahmoud [] has quit [Quit: Quitte]
10:02<andythenorth>there's no point putting really crappy trucks in a set
10:03<andythenorth>start trucks later, or fake speeds?
10:03<andythenorth>irl, speeds were restricted by law more than by engineering
10:03-!-dlr365 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
10:09<Svish>aaa, I can't get this server to run. turning on debug_level didn't make anything more helpful appear in the console either
10:10<Ammler>the time you need to solve a issue on windows, you can setup a linux system
10:11<Ammler>(well, with other issues included) :-P
10:11<Svish>i'll take the issues in windows over the mess in linux any day :p
10:12<Svish>besides, it works to start a server on my laptop, so it must be something weird on my other computer... are there issues with the 64bit version when it comes to servers?
10:13<Ammler>does it just say "could not start server", nothing more?
10:14<Ammler>openttd works as usual client?
10:15-!-TheDude [] has joined #openttd
10:18<Svish>Ammler: yeah. very unhelpful. and when starting from the console, it does seem to says something but it flashes open in a new window which closes too fast
10:21-!-Progman [] has joined #openttd
10:23-!-Lakie [~Lakie@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
10:26<Eddi|zuHause>Svish: did you set "developer 2" like i told you?
10:28-!-fjb|tab [] has joined #openttd
10:31<Svish>oh, is that different from the debug_level net=2?
10:31<Svish>tried to just set debug_level 2 as well, does that include developer?
10:32<Eddi|zuHause>the "developer" setting decides where debug output appears (stdout vs. ingame console)
10:34-!-mahmoud [] has joined #openttd
10:38<Svish>ooh, ok
10:38<Svish>will try that then
10:40<andythenorth>traction engines + trailers: BANDIT or HEQS?
10:45<Svish>why does it try to look up the hostname E? is that why it fails?
10:46<Eddi|zuHause>very likely
10:46<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: beer - barrels or crates? :P
10:46<Eddi|zuHause>maybe you have a weird HOSTS file?
10:46<Eddi|zuHause>or something in your .cfg?
10:52<Svish>can't find anything
10:54<Svish>meh, I give up
11:06-!-supermop [] has joined #openttd
11:10-!-vargadanis [] has joined #openttd
11:11<@peter1138> < reasonable?
11:17<@Alberth>looks like black/coloured camouflage at first sight :p
11:19-!-DabuYu [DabuYu@] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
11:31-!-snack2 [] has joined #openttd
11:32<CIA-6>OpenTTD: yexo * r23656 /trunk/ (.gitignore .hgignore docs/): -Fix: make all vcs ignore docs/gamedocs/ just like docs/aidocs/
11:33-!-valhallasw [] has joined #openttd
11:35-!-perk11 [~perk11@] has joined #openttd
11:36<andythenorth>adult lego fans are sometimes fuckheads
11:36<andythenorth>"omg, this set looks like it was designed for little children"
11:36<andythenorth>(recommended age on the box 6-12)
11:38-!-frosch123 [] has joined #openttd
11:38-!-Svish [] has left #openttd []
11:39<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: now make a full replacement set :)
12:07<CIA-6>OpenTTD: yexo * r23657 /trunk/src/saveload/town_sl.cpp: -Fix (r22958): loading of very old savegames with custom town names failed
12:08<Eddi|zuHause>@openttd log 22958
12:08<Eddi|zuHause>@openttd commit 22958
12:08<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: Commit by rubidium :: r22958 /trunk/src/saveload (company_sl.cpp town_sl.cpp) (2011-09-23 19:49:45 UTC)
12:08<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: -Fix [FS#4778]: the savegame description and loading of savegames would crash with savegames from a patched stable (which didn't bump the savegame version)
12:14-!-Svish [] has joined #openttd
12:15<Svish>what kind of signal distance do you guys use?
12:19<@planetmaker>any. You'll probably get every answer from 1 to 15
12:21-!-DayDreamer [] has left #openttd []
12:22<Svish>if most of my trains are between 4 and 5 tiles long, what distance would you recommend?
12:23<@Yexo>it really depends on your playing style
12:23<@Yexo>if you play with trunk and enable infrastructure maintenance, probably 5 or 6
12:24<@Yexo>if you play without that and are optimizing your network for efficiency, 2
12:24<@Yexo>otherwise whatever looks best for you
12:29<frosch123> <- Xaroth: was there a diff which was removed after your post?
12:39<@peter1138>it's on the site
12:40<@peter1138>"Download Single Player City-Builder"
12:42<frosch123>does that count as gpl violation?
12:43<@planetmaker>imho yes, though it's border line
12:43<@planetmaker>look at copying, frosch123
12:43-!-welshdragon [] has joined #openttd
12:44-!-welshdragon [] has left #openttd []
12:45<frosch123>oh, that's even better
12:46<frosch123>quite a bad-ass gang :p
12:46<Rubidium>should we send a nice mail to their provider?
12:47<frosch123>i don't think its worth the effort
12:47<andythenorth>at least COPYING is somewhat funny
12:48<Rubidium>it's a serious violation
12:48<Rubidium>IMO even more serious than not adding one, as this has definitely been added this way
12:49<andythenorth>"and they were all like, whatever dude"
12:50-!-KouDy [] has joined #openttd
12:50<andythenorth>nothing in their stuff about GPL or attribution that I could find
12:51-!-Belugas [~belugas@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:54-!-Belugas [~belugas@] has joined #openttd
12:54-!-mode/#openttd [+o Belugas] by ChanServ
13:03<Eddi|zuHause>somewhen i want to play a game with signal distance 24
13:04<Eddi|zuHause>but not before CETS is somewhat playable, and we have "realistic braking"
13:07<V453000>realistic braking?
13:09<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: a train reserves (at least) its braking distance, and when there is a speed limit (bridge, curve, red signal, ...) within that reservation, it gradually slows down (like with stations)
13:10<V453000>but what if a red signal suddenly flicks in front of it
13:10<Eddi|zuHause>that never happens
13:10<Eddi|zuHause>(except with player intervention)
13:11<Rubidium>a green path signal never goes red; even in the real world it's really hard to get it back to red
13:12<V453000>oh, it works only with path signals?
13:12<Rubidium>IIRC here the route stays locked for at least two minutes
13:12<Eddi|zuHause>even a green block signal never goes red, because all other block signals will be forced to red in that case
13:12-!-Pulec|MCM [] has joined #openttd
13:13<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: it should work with block signals as well
13:13<V453000>well a green pre-signal can go red basically anytime based on the conditions
13:13-!-Neon [] has joined #openttd
13:13<V453000>or when an another train tries to enter the same block?
13:14<Rubidium>not with the premise that the reserved path acts like a train being there
13:14<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: another train cannot enter the block, as a reservation counts like a train being in the block
13:14<TWerkhoven[l]>the train reserves the entire path or blocks, and all signals therein will be red
13:14<@blathijs>Doesn't this need yellow signals for a train to slow down?
13:14<Eddi|zuHause>and the presignal condition will be ignored once the reservation has been placed through the signal
13:14<@blathijs>Otherwise there is nothing that could ever stop a train?
13:14<TWerkhoven[l]>only cosmetically
13:15-!-Pulec [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:15<Eddi|zuHause>blathijs: "yellow signal" is just eyecandy
13:15<TWerkhoven[l]>the train will see the red signal within its stopping distance, and slow down
13:15<V453000>I am wondering how is that going to work
13:15<TWerkhoven[l]>so when are you starting on implementing it eddi?
13:15<Eddi|zuHause>blathijs: a train slows down, when the reservation fails (because of a forced-red signal)
13:16<@blathijs>Eddi|zuHause: Ah, right, you just prevent a signal from going red when the train passes by, not it going red when the train is far away
13:16<@blathijs>I see :-)
13:16<Eddi|zuHause>TWerkhoven[l]: my implementation status is "waiting on michi_cc to pop up with a ready implementation" :)
13:23-!-Elu [] has joined #openttd
13:24<@Yexo>blathijs: don't want to bug you too much, but a new OpenGFX will require a package of nml
13:26-!-Adambean [~AdamR@] has quit [Quit: Gone fishing]
13:28-!-Elukka [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:28-!-TheMask96 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:30-!-perk11 [~perk11@] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier.]
13:33-!-TheMask96 [] has joined #openttd
13:37-!-Wolf01 [] has joined #openttd
13:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: translators * r23658 /trunk/src/lang/ (9 files): (log message trimmed)
13:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: german - 12 changes by planetmaker
13:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: hungarian - 52 changes by Brumi, IPG
13:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: indonesian - 17 changes by fanioz
13:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: italian - 4 changes by Snail_, lorenzodv
13:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: malay - 156 changes by kazlan68
13:47-!-pjpe [] has joined #openttd
13:47-!-Xaroth [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
13:52<Eddi|zuHause>it's a wolf!! all hide!!
13:54-!-fjb|tab is now known as Guest21417
13:54-!-Guest21417 [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
13:54-!-fjb|tab [] has joined #openttd
14:00*Alberth hides behind eddi
14:01<Wolf01>aww.. I don't see anymore Alberth :(
14:01*Alberth unhides from eddi, and hugs Wolf01 :)
14:01-!-pugi [] has joined #openttd
14:02<@blathijs>Yexo: No problem, keep bugging me :-)
14:02<@blathijs>Yexo: I'll probably have some time this weekend or next week
14:02<Eddi|zuHause>"i don't have to outrun the wolf, i only have to outrun YOU"
14:03*Wolf01 repeatly clicks on blathijs (like on warcraft 2)
14:03<@planetmaker>blathijs: and by Saturday you'll have a new release of OpenGFX
14:03<@planetmaker>or somewhen Saturday latest
14:03<@blathijs>planetmaker: Good to keep the pressure on ;-)
14:04*planetmaker hugs blathijs
14:08-!-Xaroth [] has joined #openttd
14:09<Rubidium>only saturday? ;)
14:10-!-Devroush [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:10<@planetmaker>I shall see
14:15<Eddi|zuHause>saturday is when the presents are delivered
14:18<andythenorth>are we releasing anything for Christmas?
14:18<andythenorth>new FIRS?
14:18*andythenorth is chasing BANDIT
14:27-!-Lakie [~Lakie@] has joined #openttd
14:34<Eddi|zuHause>"Finland discovers patriot rockets en route from germany to south korea, declared as 'fireworks'"
14:37<andythenorth>electric trucks?
14:37<andythenorth>stupid idea?
14:38<Eddi|zuHause>maybe futuristic ones?
14:39<andythenorth>quite a lot of battery trucks before internal combustion engines were good
14:39<Eddi|zuHause>that fits around the time when prussia experimented with battery powered railcars
14:40<Eddi|zuHause>(to replace steam engines on its vast network of minor branch lines)
14:40<andythenorth>is it worth limiting range?
14:41<andythenorth>the diesel trucks don't have to refuel either
14:41<Eddi|zuHause>range limits are only effective for aircraft
14:43-!-Mucht [] has joined #openttd
14:43-!-Lakie [~Lakie@] has quit [Quit: bbiab]
14:44-!-sla_ro|master [slaco@] has quit [Quit: Sla Mutant Co-Op for Renegade - coming back soon]
14:46-!-KritiK [] has joined #openttd
14:47-!-TheD [] has joined #openttd
14:48-!-Zuu [] has joined #openttd
14:51<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23659 /trunk/ (known-bugs.txt readme.txt): -Doc: behaviour of file searching in general, and in tars specifically
14:52-!-TheDude [] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
14:56-!-TheD [] has quit []
14:57-!-TheDude [] has joined #openttd
15:01-!-pjpe [] has quit [Quit: ajax IRC Client]
15:05<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23660 /trunk/src/crashlog.cpp: -Feature-ish: add the game script to the crash log
15:06<vargadanis>I can see text like road expansion complete above the heads of the competitor AIs.. what are those?
15:06<vargadanis>above competitors' HQ that is
15:07<Rubidium>probably debug texts
15:08-!-Progman [] has quit [Quit: Progman]
15:08-!-Progman [] has joined #openttd
15:12<Eddi|zuHause>in the nightlies you can disable showing competitor's signs
15:20-!-Elu [] has quit []
15:23<andythenorth>rv-wagons for christmas?
15:23<@Terkhen>don't know, ask santa
15:23<Rubidium>definitely not this one ;)
15:23-!-Svish [] has left #openttd []
15:26<andythenorth>@seen santa
15:26<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: I have not seen santa.
15:27-!-George [~George@] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
15:27*andythenorth looks forward to a lot of dicking around with refits for trailers :|
15:29-!-Svish [] has joined #openttd
15:30-!-Svish is now known as Guest21425
15:31-!-Guest21425 [] has left #openttd []
15:34-!-Zuu [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
15:36-!-George [~George@] has joined #openttd
15:36-!-Adambean [] has joined #openttd
15:40-!-Zuu [] has joined #openttd
15:40-!-Wolfsherz [] has joined #openttd
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>i think CETS is nearing nmlc-explosion
15:43<Eddi|zuHause>took something like 5:20 now...
15:44<Eddi|zuHause>and memory consumption doesn't look well either
15:44-!-chris_0076 [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
15:44<Rubidium>so start optimising nmlc ;)
15:45<Eddi|zuHause>i just tripled the amount of vehicles...
15:48-!-Wolfsherz [] has quit [Quit: Verlassend]
15:49<@peter1138>have you hit 100000 sprites yet?
15:52<Eddi|zuHause>cets.grf has 106932 sprites, maxx 65, maxy 41, maxs 983.
15:52<Eddi|zuHause>but that's a temporary hiccups, i believe
15:53<Eddi|zuHause>it should be less if i'm done
15:53-!-Lakie [~Lakie@] has joined #openttd
15:54<Eddi|zuHause>now... fixing graphics...
15:55<Eddi|zuHause>hm... why do tenders not work?
15:58-!-Alberth [] has left #openttd []
16:00<Eddi|zuHause>oh... i think i know...
16:00<Eddi|zuHause>hm... that complicates a few things
16:05<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: i have no idea how to do python profiling
16:06<andythenorth>I had no idea how to write nfo
16:07<Eddi|zuHause>one problem: the dependency run takes almost as long as the final run...
16:07<Eddi|zuHause>and i still don't understand why that is needed at all...
16:09<Eddi|zuHause>just do a complete run, and fish the dependendcies out afterwards
16:10<stinkyfax>How can I refit my train to have passengers wagons + tourist wagons. so far I found only way to have passangers or tourist wagons, but not both together
16:11<Eddi|zuHause>in the refit window you can select parts of the wagons to refit
16:11<@Yexo>you can't do that in a stable, you'll need a nightly version
16:11-!-glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:c806:255f:d535:3731] has joined #openttd
16:11-!-mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ
16:11<Eddi|zuHause>is that a new feature`
16:11<Eddi|zuHause>i thought that was already old
16:11<@Yexo>quite new, yes
16:11<stinkyfax>ooh :(
16:12<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, the other way is to remove parts of the wagons, refit, and then add the wagons again
16:12<@Yexo>oh, it's old already, yes
16:12<@Yexo>it's part of 1.1
16:12<@Terkhen>IIRC it should be in 1.1.x, yes
16:13<@Yexo>- Feature: Allow to refit only the selected part of a train consist (r21567) <- from 1.1.0-beta1 changelog
16:13<Eddi|zuHause>i think that was one of the last features included in 1.1
16:13<@Yexo>that's about right eddi :)
16:13<stinkyfax>lovely, thanks
16:14<Eddi|zuHause>real 8m28.762s
16:14<Eddi|zuHause>user 7m46.709s
16:14<Eddi|zuHause>sys 0m5.977s
16:14<@Yexo><Eddi|zuHause> one problem: the dependency run takes almost as long as the final run... <- planetmaker was busy fixing that, so it only does a single run
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: that'd easily cut off 30%
16:16<stinkyfax>anyone knows solution to supply town with water when it has no water tower nor I can fund a new building "water tower"?
16:16<@Yexo>you need to fund the water tower industry first
16:17<stinkyfax>Yexo: I can't fund water tower, there isn't such in list
16:17<stinkyfax>but there are water towers in other towns
16:17<@Yexo>you can adjust the settings so you can fund it
16:17-!-TGYoshi [~TGYoshi@] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
16:17<stinkyfax>can you help me here?
16:18<@Yexo>advanced settings -> economy -> industry funding or so
16:18<Eddi|zuHause>so... tenders working again... graphics still broken
16:19*Zuu blames the OTTDAU problems reported on the forums on TrueBrain
16:19<Zuu>Or more specificly, the commit message of r23649
16:20<stinkyfax>Yexo: I believe it is bugged due to some of the opengfx industry vectors.
16:20<stinkyfax>I tried to enable all, Now I can build water supply, but still no water tower in the list
16:20<TrueBrain>@commit 23649
16:20<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: Commit by truebrain :: r23649 trunk/src/saveload/game_sl.cpp (2011-12-21 12:40:29 UTC)
16:20<Zuu>It has unbalanced square brackets which triggers a bug :-)
16:20<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: -Fix [FS#4905) (r23634): loading a savegame with an empty GSTR chunk caused assert
16:20<TrueBrain>I love fiding bugs in your script :D
16:20<@Yexo>lol :)
16:20<@Yexo>stinkyfax: ok, let me try
16:20<Zuu>It keeps trying to find the matching "]" over and over again.
16:22<@Yexo>stinkyfax: what is the value of "advanced settings -> economy -> industries -> manual primary industry construction method"?
16:22<stinkyfax>it was none, I tried changing to Prospecting
16:22<@Yexo>"prospecting" means you give a lot of money and the game will place the industry somewhere random
16:23<@Yexo>or fail to place it, in which case your money is lost
16:23<@Yexo>anyway, the water tower should show up in the list if you set it to that
16:23<@Yexo>did you change the setting in-game or via the main menu?
16:24<stinkyfax>I have many industry vectors, I think that's the cause of issue
16:24<@Yexo>many industry vectors? which ones?
16:24<@Yexo>or better yet, can you upload your savegame?
16:25<stinkyfax>(all?) ECS.* Agricultural, Basic II, Chemicals II, Construction vector beta 5, Houses, Machinery vector, Wood vector
16:25<@Yexo>don't mix ECS with FIRS or with OpenGFX+Industries
16:25<@Yexo>pick one of those 3 and stick with it
16:25<@Yexo>how did the they load at all?
16:25<stinkyfax>I don't have firs
16:26<stinkyfax>it's all ECS.
16:26<@Yexo><stinkyfax> Yexo: I believe it is bugged due to some of the opengfx industry vectors. <- so what was that about?
16:26<stinkyfax>I mean NewGFX* sorry :)
16:26<@Yexo>I still don't know what NewGRF would be
16:27<@Yexo>if you mean newgrf, you should say which newgrf, ie ECS in your case
16:27<stinkyfax>well I though it's how modifications are called in openttd: newgfx
16:27<@Yexo><Yexo> I still don't know what NewGRF would be <- ehm, I meant NewGFX there
16:27<@Yexo>no, those files are called NewGRFs
16:27<stinkyfax>oh, this naming confuses me, I'll try to remember
16:28<@Yexo>OpenGFX is a baseset with all basic graphics which you need to play at all, OpenGFX+ is a set of NewGRFS (like OpenGFX+Trains, OpenGFX+Industries) which modify various aspects of the game
16:28<@Yexo>anyway, for ECS problems go complain in the forum topic about ECS
16:28<stinkyfax>anotehr town requires water and food, I have trains supplying both but town doesn't grow. Should both food and water trains come to the station in same time in order to grow?
16:28<@Yexo>don't forget to upload your savegame there
16:29<@Yexo>see for town growth
16:30<vargadanis>I actually tested what is written on the wiki page
16:30<vargadanis>and my town went from 1500 to 17000 in the time the biggest town went from 14000 to 17000
16:30<vargadanis>so that works
16:31<vargadanis>ahm is there a pack for newgrfs?
16:31<@Yexo>why would you need a pack? You can download a lost of them via the ingame content system
16:31<@planetmaker>use online content#
16:33<stinkyfax>Yexo: can i somehow do hacky way and insert a water tower on a given tile?
16:33<@Yexo>stinkyfax: no clue without your savegame
16:35<stinkyfax>mhm, thanks for help :)
16:35*andythenorth needs names for truck makers
16:36<andythenorth>I see what you did there
16:36<andythenorth>the other sets use geography crap
16:36<@peter1138>maybe not :p
16:37<andythenorth>mountains, glaciers, shipping areas, suburbs
16:37<andythenorth>and rivers
16:38<stinkyfax>I am curious in which language NewGRF are made?
16:38<@peter1138>they're made in newgrf language
16:38<@Yexo>nfo or nml
16:38<@Yexo> or respectively
16:40<stinkyfax>ah, doubt I have enough time to pass the learning curve of new language at the moment :(
16:42<@peter1138>New forst?
16:42<@peter1138>Forest of Dean
16:42<@peter1138>Amazon Rain :p
16:45-!-DDR [~chatzilla@] has joined #openttd
16:45-!-fjb|tab [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
16:47-!-fjb|tab [] has joined #openttd
16:54-!-enr1x_ [] has joined #openttd
16:54-!-mahmoud [] has quit [Quit: Quitte]
16:56-!-enr1x [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:03*andythenorth ponders
17:03<andythenorth>real truck models?
17:05-!-Neon [] has quit [Quit: Python is way too complicated... I prefer doing it quickly in C.]
17:13-!-mahmoud [] has joined #openttd
17:25-!-KouDy [] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
17:27-!-Brianetta [] has joined #openttd
17:27<stinkyfax>would be cool if powerstations were part of town grow :)
17:28<@Yexo>hmm, disabling auto-crop for cets leads to higher compile times :s
17:30<+michi_cc>Yexo: The current CETS sprites have a lot of extra blue, auto-cropping is probably less expensive than the double compression here.
17:31<@Yexo>yep, seems so
17:31<@Terkhen>I wonder if you can use NoGo + NewGRFs to make power stations part of town growth
17:32<@Terkhen>hmm... probably, yes
17:32<Eddi|zuHause>power stations need some measurable output that GS can read
17:33<@Yexo>cets nfo output only takes 1m10s, grf output takes 2m30s
17:34<frosch123>Terkhen: we were looking into letting gs define new town effects
17:34<@Terkhen> <--- true, it would need a TownEffect for coal
17:34<@Terkhen>oh, that would be nice :)
17:34<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: that's not the proper solution, since that would include coal delivered to steel mills
17:34<frosch123>but one of the problems is that newgrfs must be loaded before gs, so it needs some implicit definition
17:35<frosch123>i wrote down some things to consider, but did not got yet to a sane spec :p
17:35<@Terkhen>so it's one of those "gets more complicated the more you think about it" problems
17:35<frosch123>the idea was basically to make industries and houses produce town effects
17:36<frosch123>while this seems to be easy for industries, we have no house production yet
17:36<frosch123>that is, house production triggered by acceptance
17:36<frosch123>you would somehow need to collect what towneffects the houses produce within the catchment area of the station :s
17:37<@Terkhen>hmm... what do you mean with "producing town effects"?
17:38<frosch123>for industries it would be just a flag for the cargotype like "this cargo is not transportable by vehicles"
17:38<frosch123>so a grf could define a cargo "electric power" with town effect "power". industries which produce it, deliver it directly to the nearest town
17:39<frosch123>it could also define a cargotype "heating" or so
17:39<frosch123>though maybe that would have some maximum transport distance or so :p
17:40<@Terkhen>oh, I see what you mean now
17:40<frosch123>i.e. towneffect would be normal industry output production like any other cargo, just that it is not delivered to the nearest station, but to the nearest town
17:40<frosch123>for houses we would need something similar. like "produce this towneffect, if this cargo is accepted"
17:41<andythenorth>power station -> town growth is trivial
17:41<andythenorth>have the industry put a value in storage
17:41<andythenorth>on the town
17:41<andythenorth>have nogo read the value
17:41<frosch123>currently the towneffect is defined for a cargo, but defining it at the industry/house would be nicer :)
17:41<andythenorth>grow the town. or not
17:41<frosch123>andythenorth: yes, industries are easy :p
17:42<andythenorth>frosch123: also "this cargo is not transportable by vehicles" - please ship that :)
17:42<frosch123>but with the "virtual towneffect-cargo" you would also have a proper industry gui displaying the production
17:42<andythenorth>I think it enabled pipelines ;)
17:43<frosch123>however, the hardest problem is still the definition of the towneffects
17:43<frosch123>imo gs shall define them, but grfs somehow have to know which types exist
17:43<andythenorth>I'd file it under 'hard problem'
17:43<frosch123>either gs must define them in advance via info.nut, or grfs may only test form them in varact2
17:43<frosch123>since action7/9 are processed before any gs is loaded
17:44<andythenorth>frosch123 can we take a simpler case?
17:44<andythenorth>e.g. Building Materials
17:44<frosch123>(unless we define them in info.nut)
17:44<frosch123>(which would be stupid, since they could not be affected by settings or so)
17:44-!-snack2 [] has quit []
17:45<andythenorth>this makes my head hurt
17:45<andythenorth>why have a magic cargo?
17:45<@Terkhen>good night
17:45<Eddi|zuHause>so GS need loading stages
17:46<andythenorth>bye Terkhen
17:46<Eddi|zuHause>to set up stuff before newgrfs get activated
17:47<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: it's easier the other way round, NewGRFs define town effects, and GS checks for which ones are defined
17:47-!-valhallasw [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:48<frosch123>sure it's easier. but is it useful?
17:49<frosch123>why should a grf produce "power", "heating", "employment" or "wastedisposal" , if there is no gs which makes use of them?
17:50<frosch123>so, imo the gs must define which effects exist, then the grf can provide them, and then the gs can check again which types can actually be provided with the available grfs
17:50<andythenorth>what's the goal?
17:51-!-KritiK [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
17:52<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: you're heading into a chicken-egg loop then
17:53<frosch123>yup :p
17:53<frosch123>but i like chicken more than eggs
17:53<andythenorth>is the aim that arbitrary GS is compatible with arbitrary newgrf?
17:53<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: and what harm does defining town effects in the grf do, which are not checked in the GS?
17:54<frosch123>a grf might check for alternatives. it might want to produce power or heating depending on whether they exist
17:54<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: at least you'll get funny statistics :)
17:54*andythenorth wonders if it's viable to maintain separation between GS and industry newgrf
17:54<frosch123>however, letting the grf defnie the towneffect puts the towncontrol into the grf, and not into the gs
17:55<frosch123>andythenorth: they shall stay as separate as possible, just like house and industry grfs
17:55<andythenorth>but nobody can yet define 'as possible' :P
17:55<frosch123>if your house grf add powerstations which accept fuel, it might want to disable them if no fuel cargo is available
17:55<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: the GS must check anyway whether the GRFs actually support the TE
17:55<andythenorth>ultimately seems like newgrf and GS are going to bleed together
17:56<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: currently the gs can set any te requirement, and ottd ignores not available ones
17:56<andythenorth>maybe it's just better if the industry newgrf is tied to the GS
17:56<frosch123>that's why alpine acutally works now in trunk :p
17:56<frosch123>the food requirement in arctic is now ignored, if there is no foodish cargo
17:56<Eddi|zuHause>interesting. so the Goods->TE_WATER hack can be removed from FIRS
17:57<andythenorth>your house grf shouldn't be adding industry anyway, thats doing it wrong
17:57<frosch123>andythenorth: sure the canadian theme pack will be extended with a canadian gs which features the exact economical data of canada from 1850 to 2010, and which will stop the game in 2010
17:57<frosch123>but that should never be the goal
17:57<frosch123>the goal should be modularity in independent parts, which can operate with eath other unless they mess up
17:58<andythenorth>black box modularity?
17:58<andythenorth>or publicly-declared interfaces modularity?
17:58<frosch123>no idea, whatever suits
17:59<Eddi|zuHause>i think GS defining TE is heading into a nightmare
17:59<Eddi|zuHause>GRF should define TE
17:59<andythenorth>I think TE is a nightmare full stop
17:59<andythenorth>whatever happened to town control grfs?
18:00<@peter1138>i guess that idea is obsolete :)
18:00<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: the available te in a game should be the intersection of what newgrfs and gs know
18:01<frosch123>it only gets hard when one of them wants to define their part of the intersection depending on the part of the other :p
18:01<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: railtypes can't check whether a vehicle for that railtype will be made available by any grf
18:01*andythenorth is certainly confused :)
18:02<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: only vehicles can check whether a railtype will be available
18:02<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: but they can define tons of compatibility in case there is a vehicle for a similar railtype
18:02<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: and the game decides an intersection
18:02<frosch123>you could do the same for te like this newgrf produces A, but if A is not present produce B instead
18:03<frosch123>it would be as complicated as railtype compatibility though :p
18:03<Eddi|zuHause>but not as complicated as creating a dependency on GS being loaded first
18:04-!-Adambean [] has quit [Quit: Gone fishing]
18:04<andythenorth>so reduced to absolutes, this is *not* about GS at all, but about how one newgrf might vary production depending on presence or absence of another newgrf
18:05<Eddi|zuHause>no, worse...
18:05<frosch123>andythenorth: newgrfs can do that
18:05*andythenorth might have skipped a few steps of the argument
18:05<frosch123>but they cannot check for present gs, resp. what they do
18:06<Eddi|zuHause>presence of other GRFs is a solved problem
18:06<Eddi|zuHause>presence of GSs is the problem
18:06<frosch123>while newgrfs are somewhat transparent to gs in at least what they define (not how it behaves), gs are totally intransparent to newgrfs :p
18:06*andythenorth is not convinced it's a solved problem wrt a town grf that suddenly expects to define industries too
18:06<andythenorth>but without defining cargos
18:06<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i think it's best if it stays this way
18:07<andythenorth>town / house /s
18:07<frosch123>luckily the latter is no problem in most cases, since gs do only global stuff
18:07<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: likely :)
18:07<frosch123>allows to fix stupid grfs via gs :p
18:08<Eddi|zuHause>it'll get some occasional "meh"s, like not being able to check for base set
18:08-!-Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
18:08<Eddi|zuHause>but it's least likely to actually break any concepts
18:08<Eddi|zuHause>or backfire
18:09<andythenorth>so this proposal is - newgrf cannot change behaviour depending on GS?
18:09-!-TheD [] has joined #openttd
18:09<Eddi|zuHause>that's the "do nothing" solution :)
18:09<frosch123>at least not on load
18:10<frosch123>but i would assume grfs want to check for te themself :p
18:10<frosch123>to display appropiate houses for towns etc
18:11<frosch123>so, maybe grfs can define whatever te they want, and produce it. but the gs decides which are displayed or hidden from the user, and what effect they really have
18:11<andythenorth>te is a flag? or new cargo(s)?
18:11<Eddi|zuHause>grfs get a TE callback, which sorta works like the production callback
18:11<frosch123>e.g. a powerplant could still produce power and make houses lighted, but the gs would not care
18:12<Eddi|zuHause>i.e. by default a house produces X TE_PASSENGER upon receiving X Passengers
18:12<frosch123>andythenorth: not yet decides. te are simliar to cargos is many ways, but there are also differences
18:12<@Yexo>if it would be a separate callback, is there any need to keep calling it "town effect"?
18:12<andythenorth>I can't shake the idea of using storage
18:13<andythenorth>N arbitrary registers, marked by labels if that helps compatibility
18:13<@Yexo>as it seems to me this would be introducing some "miscellaneous GS effect"
18:13<andythenorth>newgrf can increment / decrement the amounts in the register
18:13<andythenorth>GS can also increment / decrement the amounts in the register
18:13<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: so "Game Effect"?
18:13<frosch123>Yexo: call it like you want, the current town effect properties would have no meaning anymore, so the term is kind of unused again :p
18:14<andythenorth>but it currently has meaning, so that's confusing :P
18:14<@Yexo>but already calling it town effect now creates confusion with the existing town effect
18:14-!-TheDude [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:14<frosch123>well, the effects are summed at the nearest town
18:14<frosch123>so, it is still a town effect
18:15<@Yexo>"New Town Effect" NTE for short?
18:15<andythenorth>Yet Another Acronymed Feature
18:16<Eddi|zuHause>basically the suggestion is to move TE from cargos to houses/industries
18:16<andythenorth>but yes
18:17<andythenorth>is there anything wrong with using town storage for this?
18:17<frosch123>towneffects are essentially the same as town storage
18:17<Eddi|zuHause>"town storage" implies some kind of random access
18:17<frosch123>you just have limited access to them as newgrf
18:18<Eddi|zuHause>across grfs, etc.
18:18<Eddi|zuHause>but the TE callback would be write only
18:18<Eddi|zuHause>from GRFs side
18:18<Eddi|zuHause>and read only from GS side
18:18<andythenorth>so remind me...
18:18<frosch123>if we make towneffects freely defineable, they would get labels. so ottd would translate them for every grf
18:18<frosch123>that's not possible with registers
18:19<andythenorth>for current town storage design, grf can read other grfs registers, and write it's own only?
18:19<frosch123>registers would require all grf authors to agree on something, and that never worked :p
18:19<Eddi|zuHause>what happened to GRM, anyway? :)
18:20*andythenorth -> bed
18:20<frosch123>it's used for actiona sprites
18:20<andythenorth>have fun with this :P
18:20<andythenorth>good night ;)
18:21<frosch123>hmm, though i am not sure whether custom actiona sprites are still required somewhere
18:21-!-andythenorth [] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
18:21<frosch123>ah, yes, for custom vehicle recolouring :)
18:21<+michi_cc>Recolour sprites?
18:21<frosch123>michi_cc: yeah, but industries/houses/objects can define their recolouring in action1 meanwhile :)
18:22<frosch123>so, only vehicles :p
18:22<+michi_cc>Advanced sprite layout for vehicles? ;)
18:22<vargadanis>this is completly addicting
18:22<+michi_cc>Might even make sense for vehicle + cargo layering.
18:23<frosch123>michi_cc: just never allow grf authors to define bounding boxes :p
18:23<+michi_cc>No pony for Eddi then? :)
18:23<frosch123>that was already a mistake for stations and houses
18:24<frosch123>custom bounding boxes are completely unneeded for stations/houses/industries, grf authors can only mess things up :p
18:26<frosch123>anyway, i have a great idea!
18:26<frosch123>-> bed
18:26<frosch123>night :)
18:26-!-frosch123 [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:30<@peter1138>^ help?
18:31<@peter1138>personal_dir and shared_dir are set to \"1\" :S
18:33<@Yexo>you have a very old grfcodec :p
18:33<@peter1138>but it doesn't throw an error then
18:34<@peter1138>it just continues with spurious values
18:35<@peter1138>it does return 0
18:35<@peter1138>i think it should either not return, or exit 1
18:35<@peter1138>config.lib:947 & 953
18:36<@peter1138>removing the "return 0s" lets it carry on and work normally
18:36<@peter1138>i still get that wobbly message but it's not deadly
18:37<@Yexo>the return 0 there is wrong indeed
18:57-!-TheD [] has left #openttd []
18:57-!-vargadanis [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:17-!-Brianetta [] has quit [Quit: Tschüß]
19:25-!-DDR [~chatzilla@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:25-!-Mucht [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:30-!-DDR [~chatzilla@] has joined #openttd
19:45-!-supermop [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:00-!-Progman [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:05-!-Zuu [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:11-!-Pixa [~pixa@] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20:12-!-Pixa [~pixa@] has joined #openttd
20:16-!-pjpe [] has joined #openttd
20:26-!-MinchinWeb [] has joined #openttd
20:58-!-pugi [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:58-!-pugi [] has joined #openttd
21:00-!-pugi [] has quit []
21:11-!-glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:c806:255f:d535:3731] has quit [Quit: bye]
21:18-!-DDR [~chatzilla@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:26-!-Lakie [~Lakie@] has quit [Quit: Sleep.]
21:50-!-pjpe [] has quit [Quit: ajax IRC Client]
22:06-!-fjb|tab is now known as Guest21466
22:06-!-Guest21466 [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
22:06-!-fjb|tab [] has joined #openttd
22:17-!-Devroush [] has joined #openttd
22:23-!-Devroush [] has quit []
22:31-!-MinchinWeb [] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
22:58-!-mkv` [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
22:58-!-mkv` [] has joined #openttd
23:08-!-Ardonel [] has left #openttd []
23:15-!-Elukka [] has joined #openttd
23:49-!-Pulec|MCM [] has quit []
23:53-!-pjpe [] has joined #openttd
---Logclosed Fri Dec 23 00:00:53 2011