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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-12-24

---Logopened Sat Dec 24 00:00:52 2011
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03:55<Rubidium>moin lord andy ;)
03:56<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23666 /trunk/ (6 files in 4 dirs): -Document: the usual pre-Christmas documentation spree
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04:09<@Terkhen>good morning
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04:11<andythenorth>Terkhen: how did your first year of work go? :)
04:12<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23667 /tags/1.2.0-beta1/: -Release: 1.2.0-beta1
04:13<@Terkhen>hi Wolf01
04:14<@Terkhen>andythenorth: fine, I'm still taking the courses :P
04:15<Rubidium>2/3rds on the way to r25k ;)
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04:20<Wolf01>uhm, my pc seem to have some very problems this morning
04:20<Wolf01>I'll try a reboot
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04:25<Wolf01>bah, started with 3 pistons
04:26<Wolf01>Some times I feel like the audio service is trolling me
04:32<andythenorth>Rubidium: would diagonal rivers take us closer to r25k?
04:32<Rubidium>you can make those quite easily with NewGRFs, can't you?
04:33<Rubidium>just make the inner corners quite a lot bigger
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04:35<andythenorth>not quite the same though :P
04:35<@Terkhen>1333 Doc commits would also get us closer to r25k :P
04:35<Rubidium>that'd basically what an implementation in OpenTTD would get (maybe with dedicated sprites)
04:36<andythenorth>teaching the river generator to go L-R-L-R-L etc? :P
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04:37<Rubidium>andythenorth: the river generator is basically random
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04:38<andythenorth>it follows paths though? Or do I misunderstand?
04:39<Rubidium>andythenorth: it's 2 stage
04:40<Rubidium>the first stage gets a 'random' high point and finds the closest lower point for each height level from the previous height level (recursing to find the sea / a valley); if it reaches a valley it makes a lake
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04:41<Rubidium>the second stage lets the pathfinder find a path between the "waypoints" found in stage 1, where the cost of each step is random. So eventually it will go to that lower point, but it most likely won't go straight
04:42<andythenorth>so the long straight sections in rivers on my maps are just pure random chance?
04:44<Rubidium>basically yes
04:44<Rubidium>there's a setting to make the route more random/less straight
04:49<andythenorth>0 is not a valid value for that setting
04:52<andythenorth>Rubidium: what's the upper limit for that setting?
04:52<andythenorth>that was my guess :P
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05:04<Eddi|zuHause>the "problem" with just making the river banks straighter is that you can't put rail on the other half :(
05:04<Eddi|zuHause>(unlike half-shore tiles)
05:05<Eddi|zuHause>and you can't terraform the tile to half slope either
05:07<andythenorth>rail on the river banks I don't care
05:08<Eddi|zuHause>hm... nobody made CETS bug reports yet...
05:08<Eddi|zuHause>i assume everything works perfectly then :p
05:09<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: why not put rail on the other half? Not enough bits?
05:10<Eddi|zuHause>idea: tiles remember whether they were river tiles in the past, and if they are cleared, they re-flood
05:15<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: planetmaker somewhat did that for locks
05:15<andythenorth>it annoys me when a river doesn't reconnect
05:16<andythenorth>could we cache the origin point and run the pathfinder again?
05:16<andythenorth>^ might be more interesting with terraforming....
05:16<andythenorth>I guess caching random is an interesting computing problem :P
05:17<Eddi|zuHause>storing the origin point of a river is not the problem. repeatedly checking whether it's still connected to the end point is
05:17*andythenorth sees
05:17<andythenorth>hadn't thought of that :P
05:18<andythenorth>store an array of tile x / y indexes?
05:18<andythenorth>per river
05:18<andythenorth>if (tile is bulldozed) { do_stuff }
05:19<Eddi|zuHause>that implies storing a "river pool"
05:20<Eddi|zuHause>which might be the dreaded TMWFTLB
05:21*andythenorth thinks GS might *not* be the answer to every feature request :P
05:22<Eddi|zuHause>a GS could do that, but it has to retroactively guess what was the origin point, as the world generator has already forgotten this data at this point
05:22<Eddi|zuHause>and it cannot react on clear-commands
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05:26<Rubidium>what about man made rivers (scenario editor)?
05:27<Wolf01>what about lively rivers?
05:28<Eddi|zuHause>my idea would be totally independent of that. you'd only ever turn clear tiles into river tiles in the tile loop, no rerouting (this would be disabled in the scenario editor)
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05:45<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: that implies storing a "river pool" <-- imho that's a good way to go, though
05:45<@planetmaker>it'd allow to attach 'character' to rivers, too. And names
05:46<@peter1138>LIVELY RIVERS
05:47<@peter1138>hmm, right, off to tesco
05:47<@peter1138>hopefully not too busy
05:47<@peter1138>(yeah right)
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05:49<Eddi|zuHause>there are non-busy shops on christmas eve? :p
06:05<Zuu>Lovely comment "... , really i see only the problem of developing it." :-)
06:06<__ln__>this year: +1 degree C, barely any snow; last year: -31 degrees, plenty of snow
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06:13<Rubidium>Zuu: isn't that always the problem?
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06:31<andrea>merning everyone :)
06:31-!-andrea is now known as Guest21583
06:32<Guest21583>here is something I have been thinking on ... Our faculty at the uni has a class called the basics of computer programming where we are to learn about algorithmic thinking, Jackson figures and whatnot
06:32<Guest21583>to teach people how to break down more complex tasks to simpler ones, TTD is perfect
06:33<Guest21583>when zou set up the routes, depo, conditional gotos and similar things
06:33<Guest21583>pretty much there is everything built into TTD already starting from loops to conditions
06:34<@Terkhen>do you mean AIs?
06:34<Guest21583>would it be much of an undertaking to fork or patch TTD to let us set up routes with handwritten code?
06:34<Guest21583>no, no AIs
06:34<Guest21583>when you manually set the route for a train.. go to there, load full cargo, go there unload, maintain if needed
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06:35<vargadanis>okkay.. I was andrea, then Guest and now vargadanis :)
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06:35<vargadanis>so weird :)
06:35<Rubidium>you mean controlling all actions of all trains manually?
06:36<vargadanis>yeah sorta :)
06:36<vargadanis>writing a simple language parser isn't too complicated
06:36<vargadanis>integrating it into TTD is a bigger challenge
06:36<vargadanis>the faculty has huge server farms where each of the students could run their simulations
06:37<vargadanis>or 1 big ass simulation where all the students share the same world
06:37<@Terkhen>it would be way simpler to use AIs / goal scripts if you want to teach coding
06:37<vargadanis>see who wins at the end of the semester
06:37<@planetmaker>vargadanis: you can control the routes directly by placing waypoints behind junctions
06:38<@planetmaker>But writing AIs or goal scripts is the better thing IMHO to teach these things on
06:38<vargadanis>planetmaker, what I meant was: inted of a GUI interface, let the users type in commands such as: MOVE TRAIN TO "station2"
06:38<@planetmaker>but... an AI does that. Not?
06:38<vargadanis>planetmaker, yeah, could be, dunno
06:38<@Terkhen>yes, an AI can do that
06:38<@planetmaker>If you're an AI, you can always change orders continuously, if you want
06:38<vargadanis>havent dug into AIs yet
06:38<vargadanis>but that could work
06:39<Rubidium>but then you won't be influencing path finding
06:39<@planetmaker>no, of course not
06:39<vargadanis>so people program AIs and the complexity of the AI could increase as the semester goes on
06:39<Rubidium>and the major question is: what level of commands are you thinking of?
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06:39<vargadanis>well the course is for 1st year students
06:39<@planetmaker>Or rather: what should be the goal of the programming course?
06:39<vargadanis>the most basics of the things
06:40<Rubidium>move to station, or move to next tile + go left + move to next tile + start breaking + ...
06:40<vargadanis>there are 2 courses going on at the same time: these basics and a programming in C course
06:40<@planetmaker>well. This is squirrel
06:40<vargadanis>by the end of the semester people are to know C, linked lists, basic data structures, basic modeling and whatnot
06:41<@planetmaker>But does such course really need the basic 'move one tile forward' thing?
06:41<vargadanis>possibly not
06:41<vargadanis>I do not think breaking it down that much would make much sense
06:42<vargadanis>do you guys know Scratch?
06:42<vargadanis>it a stupid GUI thingie that is used to help people understand algorithmic thinking
06:42<vargadanis>developed by MIT
06:42<vargadanis>I hate it and so does most of the folks here but is being used
06:43<vargadanis>I thought TTD would offer an alternative with more fun and more possibilities
06:43<vargadanis>and involving a Computer Science Faculty to a project like this would mean great things to TTD :)
06:43<vargadanis>best thing I can do right now: write a forum post about this idea and see what we can come up with
06:44<vargadanis>btw: the teacher was more the eager to give it a shot
06:44<vargadanis>well professor rather with 2 PHDs
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06:45<Rubidium>as introduction it might be a bit steep; simply giving vehicles an order is relatively easy, however you need to build infrastructure
06:45<Rubidium>and the building of infrastructure is algorithmically quite complex (at least I'd say for some first year CS students)
06:46<Rubidium>and that infrastructure building is what you need to start with
06:47<Rubidium>unless you limit it to road vehicles and already have placed a nice road network between towns and industries
06:47<Rubidium>the the infrastructure building is much easier; only building of stations and depots that are connected to roads (under the premise that the roads are fully connected)
06:48<Rubidium>once they have mastered that you can get them to possibly optimise their routes by building shortcuts
06:48<Rubidium>that should teach them some basic path finding skills and the knowledges how to build roads
06:49<Rubidium>finally you'd end up with a generated map with no roads except inner town roads where you let the students build the actual road network
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06:50<vargadanis>how this works is that every week the students had to do some silly something in that Scratch thing... would not take long to generate a map every week where the students were to do specific things
06:50<vargadanis>the most basic one is to let the vechicle go from there to there
06:50<vargadanis>with prebuilt infrastructure
06:51<vargadanis>Rubidium, thanx for the tip
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06:51-!-Rubidium changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.1.4, 1.2.0-beta1 | Website: * (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, ever | English only
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06:53<vargadanis>_Bool ? ohh
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06:53<vargadanis>that is new to C
06:54<Rubidium>just like _Static_assert ;)
06:55<vargadanis>ohh wow
06:55<vargadanis>there are a lot of new things
06:55<Rubidium>complex and imaginary numbers... who would've imagined that?
06:56<Eddi|zuHause>imagine the complexity!
06:56<vargadanis>yeah well those seem kind of things that could have been omitted from a programming language spec
06:57<vargadanis>but won't hurt to have them
06:57<vargadanis>I am keen on trying the new stuffz... will look it up when gcc will support the new standard
06:58<vargadanis>static const char _ _func_ _[] = "function-name";
07:00<Rubidium>quite a bit might already be supported, otherwise I'd reckon not before march
07:01<vargadanis>seems like the C course at the uni will have to be updated
07:01<Eddi|zuHause>they should start working on C++2x now :)
07:02<vargadanis>hm.. generics
07:02<vargadanis>these specs should be an interesting read when I have a bit more time
07:02<vargadanis>is it normal to be so excited about a language update? :)
07:07<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think you should worry about that anymore :p
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07:17<Elukka>looks like the brakeman's cab was removed but the platform is still there
07:17<Elukka>i've heard that around the time the wheelsets were changed from spoked to disc wheels some of them ran around with one spoked, one disc set
07:18<Elukka>Eddi|zuHause: you know things, until how long would cars like the G10 been in common use?
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07:37<andythenorth>does nml include a cargo translation table?
07:39<@planetmaker>of course
07:39<@planetmaker>you need to define it, of course, if you want one
07:40<@planetmaker>look for 'cargotable' in the docs
07:42<andythenorth>so there isn't one bundled already? :)
07:43<@planetmaker>well. No. How can it know which cargos you need?
07:43<@planetmaker>well... could. somewhat
07:43<@planetmaker>but... that's difficult
07:46<andythenorth>is there one I can steal somewhere?
07:49<@planetmaker>yes... opengfx+ trains or rv
07:49<@planetmaker>they should contain all cargos which are defined in the newgrf specs
07:53<andythenorth>some useful defines there too
08:07<@planetmaker>yes. Mind that those defines there don't make use of the new cargo entries, andythenorth
08:07<@planetmaker>you probably don't want to use the bitmask property there to adjust individual cargo refits
08:07<@planetmaker>rather make use of the newer properties which deal with force-allow and force-deny by label directly
08:08<@planetmaker>this hasn't been changed with those newgrfs yet
08:08<CIA-6>OpenTTD: smatz * r23668 /trunk/src/ai/ai_gui.cpp: -Fix: the 'Configure' button in the 'AI / Game Configuration' window didn't get enabled when activating a GameScript
08:08<@planetmaker>cargo_allow_refit and cargo_disallow_refit are your friends there
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08:19<mib_z2fbmm>any dev here?
08:20<@planetmaker>@topic get -3
08:20<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: Don't ask to ask, just ask
08:21<mib_z2fbmm>want someone who would write a new custom grf for me
08:23<@planetmaker>post your sprites in the newgrf development section. And layout your ideas there
08:23<@planetmaker>and yes, I also want a slave who does work for me upon request ;-)
08:26<mib_z2fbmm>ill pay for it
08:29<@planetmaker>according to my accounting department, I should charge 70€ per hour
08:31<mib_z2fbmm>fine ill pay you a 100, if you do it :)
08:31<mib_z2fbmm>want to be able to custom all speeds of all vehicles including power of trains
08:32<@planetmaker>that's not feasible. Unless you limit the scope to "no newgrf vehicles"
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08:33<mib_z2fbmm>well anyway i can thats what i want to do
08:33<@orudge>mib_z2fbmm: it sounds like you want TTDAlter 5.0
08:33<@orudge>Unfortunately, I've not written it yet.
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08:34<mib_z2fbmm>thats correct orudge
08:34<@orudge>In theory I have plans, in practice I have no time.
08:34<@orudge>But you never know, we shall see.
08:34<@planetmaker>orudge: but... that won't work for openttd ;-)
08:35<@orudge>planetmaker: well, it'll operate on NewGRFs
08:35<@orudge>but not any old NewGRF
08:35<@orudge>it'll just let somebody who wants to tweak the standard TTD vehicles do that, and I guess create simple NewGRF sets
08:35<@orudge>but nothing complex
08:35<@orudge>but that's the theory; as I say, it doesn't exist and isn't likely to any time soon
08:36<@planetmaker>orudge: but with the engine override... not sure you can parametrize the grfID
08:36<@planetmaker>or it'll get very messy
08:37<@orudge>er, well, I'm not sure.
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09:10<andythenorth>how odd
09:10*andythenorth had vehicle length issues with an aRV
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09:13<@planetmaker>have a merry Christmas everyone
09:13<andythenorth>you too planetmaker
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09:32*andythenorth could just use on vehicle for all BANDIT trailers
09:33<andythenorth>and a *lot* of cb36 :P
09:33<Eddi|zuHause>that again fails autoreplace...
09:33<andythenorth>I thought it smelt funny :)
09:34<Eddi|zuHause>we use almost no cb36 in CETS
09:37<@peter1138>why is everyone going? :(
09:38*andythenorth isn't
09:38*andythenorth is however going to wake the toddler up
09:38<andythenorth>so no more code for a bit :(
09:38<andythenorth>just as I started to figure pnml
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09:52<SmatZ> I hate that too
09:52<SmatZ>[15:31:53] <Eddi|zuHause> <== I noticed that link ends in a number... and yes, there are strips #1458, #1457, #1456... guess I have a lot to do for following few days :)
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10:14<andythenorth>how to template nml
10:15<andythenorth>can I declare 'item' multiple times for the same vehicle?
10:15<andythenorth>and can I do maths?
10:15<andythenorth>for property values?
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10:20<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: how do I do (some_value / 2) in nml?
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10:51<@Terkhen>exactly like that
11:01<andythenorth>is it documented?
11:01<andythenorth>I have searched the nml docs
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11:43*Belugas wishes a merry christmas to you all, and goes back with family
11:43<Eddi|zuHause>yes... it's almost present time now...
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11:53<@Terkhen>Belugas: merry christmas, see you :)
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12:05<Eddi|zuHause>somewhen i should do a list of missing features for a release...
12:06<Eddi|zuHause>off the top of my head: price, running cost, availability time, length refit
12:06<Eddi|zuHause>internally: reusing graphics for multiple vehicles
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12:55<andythenorth>is lack of grf-crawler such a big deal?
12:56<andythenorth>also - am I the only one left here? everyone else seems to be doing christmas :o
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12:56<Amis>Hello o/
12:56<Amis>I have a quick one
12:57<Amis>What's the range of a lumber mill?
13:00<andythenorth>Amis: not sure, but 40 or 20 tiles radius
13:00<andythenorth>not sure if it's a square box, or a circle
13:00<Amis>A square, I'm sure of it
13:01<andythenorth>(I'm reading src, but slightly guessing)
13:01<Amis>I may just fetch the code and try to guess it
13:01<andythenorth> if (CircularTileSearch(&tile, 40, SearchLumberMillTrees, NULL)) { // 40x40 tiles to search.
13:01<andythenorth>industry_cmd.cpp l1087
13:02<Amis>I see
13:24<Eddi|zuHause>we should have an openttd icon which updates itself with christmas decorations, like the vlc logo!
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13:33*andythenorth broke nml :P
13:34*andythenorth fixes it
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13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: translators * r23669 /trunk/src/lang/ (estonian.txt hebrew.txt slovenian.txt swedish.txt):
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: estonian - 112 changes by notAbot
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: hebrew - 2 changes by rril
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: slovenian - 33 changes by ntadej
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: swedish - 7 changes by Zuu
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15:14<vargadanis>so annoying.. whatever I do admiralAI always beats me in every possible way
15:15<vargadanis>any tips what I might do wrong or what to watch out for?
15:18<andythenorth>why does nml care about the order of properties in an item block?
15:27<Eddi|zuHause>it'll be the same order as in the final grf
15:28<Eddi|zuHause>what is the actual problem, though?
15:30<andythenorth>seems to be a conflict between cargo class props and the new allowed / disallowed cargo props
15:30<andythenorth>using nml tip
15:30<andythenorth>has anyone used those props yet I wonder?
15:43<Eddi|zuHause>another (internal) feature to remember: autogenerate the company-availabilities
15:47<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: if I commit, would you mind checking out BANDIT?
15:47<andythenorth>easier than a paste of multiple files
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15:51<Eddi|zuHause>" Fix: fix previous fix by actually adding the missing file" :)
15:53<Eddi|zuHause>so what's the offending code?
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15:55<andythenorth>there's a set of defines for cargos / classes
15:55<andythenorth>used by templates/template_articulated_truck_item.tnml
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16:00<Eddi|zuHause>sprites/nml/templates/template_clear_defines.tnml:8:27: warning: extra tokens at end of #undef directive
16:00<Eddi|zuHause>and what's the actual problem?
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16:07<andythenorth>tested in game, the vehicle doesn't have the refits I'd expect
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16:08<andythenorth>and if the classes are moved after the cargos in the template, there are issues
16:08<andythenorth>[2011-12-24 21:08:22] dbg: [grf] [bandit/bandit.grf:23] FeatureChangeInfo: Unknown property 0x2B of feature 0x01, disabling
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16:10<Eddi|zuHause>i'm getting 20 passengers and 20 mail
16:10<Eddi|zuHause>not refittable
16:10<andythenorth>should be refittable to coal
16:10<andythenorth>I'll disable the trailer
16:11<andythenorth>unarticulated, it's refittable
16:11<andythenorth>but not to coal
16:15<andythenorth>have ottd tip
16:16<andythenorth>and nml tip
16:17<andythenorth>nml bug? or ottd bug? :P
16:18<Eddi|zuHause>i don't see what you're actually doing wrong
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16:18<Eddi|zuHause>but i don't get that error message either
16:18<Eddi|zuHause>maybe nml bug
16:18*andythenorth tests whether ottd supports those properties
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16:19<Eddi|zuHause>is it the right property number for road vehicles?
16:20<andythenorth>should be 24 / 25 according to wiki
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16:23<andythenorth>can't test it with nfo
16:23<andythenorth>grfcodec doesn't support it
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>nml says 23/24
16:24<andythenorth>grfcodec claims support
16:25<andythenorth>ah it's renum that fails :P
16:25<Eddi|zuHause>so it looks like nml has an obiwan
16:32<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: fixed :)
16:33<andythenorth>hope I fixed that right :P
16:33<andythenorth>surprised I had the rights to push :o
16:49<andythenorth>trucks refit to everything but PAX, right?
16:49<andythenorth>including mail?
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16:59<fjb|tab>Trucks refit to pax in africa...
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17:15*andythenorth wonders
17:15<andythenorth>can vehicles access props of other vehicles in the chain yet?
17:16<andythenorth>yes, but not during cb36
17:19<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, do i need to increase the railtype limit? :S
17:20<Eddi|zuHause>hehe :)
17:20<Eddi|zuHause>but i don't think so
17:20<Eddi|zuHause>what would good design be without ressource limits :)
17:21<andythenorth>what would good spelling be without s limits? :D
17:21*andythenorth can't find a way to use minimal number of trailer IDs
17:21<andythenorth>so I'll just use lots, templated
17:21<andythenorth>fortunately someone created an engine pool :)
17:22<andythenorth>splitting the cargo on a truck over tractor / trailer is an interesting problem
17:22<andythenorth>(for TE purposes on the tractor)
17:22<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: besides the whole map array stuff, increasing the number of railtypes needs a serious rethinking of the GUI
17:23<andythenorth>are railtypes good, generally?
17:23<andythenorth>I've only used the UKRS 2 ones
17:23<andythenorth>which is basically default + third rail
17:25<@peter1138>it's just a drop down list :p
17:25<Eddi|zuHause>yes, and dropdown lists should generally not exceed 7 entries
17:25<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, per-company mapping, up to 16 different types used by one company, "unlimited" types available
17:26<@peter1138>probably crappy performance thoug :p
17:28<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: afaik, the 7 thing is unevidenced
17:29<andythenorth>I read something about it sometime this year on a UI blog
17:30<andythenorth>I have photoshop menus that I have to scroll :P
17:30<Eddi|zuHause>it may not be a hard limit, but it certainly is bad to have endless dropdown lists
17:32<andythenorth>it's better when there are dividers
17:32<andythenorth>if I could be bothered to find the Apple UI guidelines, I think it's 7 per group, with dividers between groups
17:33<andythenorth>but yeah - lots of railtypes puts me off
17:38<Eddi|zuHause>i'm thinking more like putting the "traction type"-relevant bits in a separate dropdown from the rest of the railtype properties. so in NuTracks you'd get one dropdown for slow/medium/fast rail, and one for normal/electric/3rd rail
17:38<Eddi|zuHause>and making both available from the rail toolbar
17:38<andythenorth>could make sense
17:39<andythenorth>hierarchical menu?
17:39<andythenorth>or grf authors specify fewer railtypes?
17:39<Eddi|zuHause>just two dropdowns next to the convert button
17:39<andythenorth>we're drowning in railtypes, yet we only have two roadtypes :(
17:40*andythenorth might be obsessing too much about physics
17:41<Ammler>scrolling menu are very bad
17:41<Ammler>then you should have type filter
17:42<Ammler>or submenu :-)
17:45<Ammler>good night all
17:45<andythenorth>bye Ammler
17:45<andythenorth>happy christmas ;)
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18:25<Wolf01>night, and happy christmas :)
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18:33<CIA-6>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r23670 /trunk/src/ (7 files in 2 dirs): -Feature: Add ability to adjust brightness of colour after remapping for 32bpp sprites
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19:29<vargadanis>a small trick i just noticed.. I was 1 tile out from the 2nd industry... I placed a 1 tile station with CTRL pressed and attached to the other station and now the 1st station accepts what is needed by the 2nd indu
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---Logclosed Sun Dec 25 00:00:55 2011