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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-12-26

---Logopened Mon Dec 26 00:01:00 2011
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03:35<dihedral>to have had a happy xmas ;-)
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03:57<@Terkhen>good morning
04:02<Mazur>Moar ning.
04:03<@Alberth>less ning
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04:17<Wolf01>moin andythenorth
04:18<andythenorth>the suggestions forum :|
04:19*andythenorth accidentally visited it
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04:20<@peter1138>uh oh
04:22<andythenorth>nekomaster has been 100% right twice in a row
04:22<andythenorth>stopped clock? laws of chance?
04:22<andythenorth>I can't create an RV with >1 trailer using nml
04:22<andythenorth>dunno why
04:23<Eddi|zuHause>that should work
04:24<andythenorth>I think so too
04:25<andythenorth>the interesting thing is that it flat out doesn't
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04:33<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: most likely cause though is that you're not actually using that code, but some other code :=
04:34<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, bye...
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05:50<vargadanis>hola everyone
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06:25<vargadanis>is it possible to upgrade that magneto thingie train track to meglev?
06:26<@Terkhen>hi LordAro
06:26<@Terkhen>what is the simplest way to cause a segmentation fault?
06:26<@Terkhen>vargadanis: depends on what is a magneto thingie
06:26<LordAro>hi Terkhen
06:26<LordAro>apply 1 of my patches :D
06:26<vargadanis>Terkhen, what 3rd type of train track that comes after electric
06:27<LordAro>that would be monorail
06:27<vargadanis>char *c; c = 0xcee;
06:27<vargadanis>you got segfault :)
06:28<vargadanis>or rather: char *c; *c = 'a'; :)
06:29<vargadanis>so monorail and meglev aren't upgradable ?
06:30<@Terkhen>you can upgrade and downgrade the rails easily
06:30<vargadanis>afk a little
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07:33<Ammler>How does "visit website" on the GUI work, this is always grey here
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07:40<LordAro>Ammler: this sort of thing:
07:42<@planetmaker>Ammler: it needs an action14 entry
07:42<@planetmaker>within the NewGRF
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07:44<TrueBrain>it needs a GetURL
07:44<TrueBrain>within the AI
07:45<Ammler>hmm, also ogfx-rv has a "grey" visit website button
07:45<@planetmaker>Ammler: yes, the released ones
07:50<Ammler>wow, works :-)
07:51<Ammler> <-- jfyi, this isn't valid url
07:51<Ammler>you miss a "p/"
07:52<@planetmaker>hm, yes :-(
07:52<@planetmaker>btw, did you fix building of opengfx releases?
07:54<Ammler>I wonder, if I can make a rewrite rule for such urls
07:55<@planetmaker>it would then fit the bundles URLs
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07:56<@planetmaker>though... not sure... there are others which do not need / want a 'project' expansion
07:56<@Yexo>hmm, URLs for AIs. Somebody should add an open browser button to the debug window to make it easier to report bugs
07:56*TrueBrain looks at Yexo
07:56<andythenorth>Yexo: any suggestions?
07:56<@Yexo>I already made the suggestion! :p
07:56<TrueBrain>Yexo: yes; that is halve the work
07:56<TrueBrain>you can as well finish it :D
07:57<@Yexo>I was more thinking along the lines: I did half of it, somebody else should do the other half :p
07:57<@planetmaker>andythenorth: did you try 1..3: return blub ?
07:57<@Yexo>nah, i will sometime later
07:57<TrueBrain>Yexo: hehehe :P
07:57<@Yexo>andythenorth: that snipped looks ok
07:57<Ammler>planetmaker: possible, that only the tag is part of 0.4 branch?
07:57<@Yexo>meh, visual studio still won't start :(
07:57<TrueBrain>what is wrong with it?
07:58<@Yexo>it displays an error window "Cannot create the window." with only an ok button
07:58<Ammler>this would be useless, as tags are global :-)
07:58<@planetmaker>yes, Ammler :-(
07:59<@Yexo>andythenorth: is that code part of bandit already?
07:59<@Yexo>if so, which vehicle?
07:59<@planetmaker>though... hm.
08:00<@planetmaker>Ammler: yes, that's true. I only branched prior to tagging. So it's ok
08:00<@planetmaker>and that's how it should be. My plan is to now start with removing the stuff which is required by OpenTTD < 1.1.x
08:00<@Yexo>planetmaker: not sure what you think about it, but I'm very tempted to get everything useful (proper licence, .blend files included) from jupix repository and start adding it to opengfx+ as soon as the format for ez sprites is final
08:00<@planetmaker>it will reduce the extra grf quite a lot
08:00<@planetmaker>Yexo: I fully agree
08:01<@Yexo>ie don't discuss it in the 32bpp forum, just do it and perhaps send some pms to recently active artists
08:01<@planetmaker>I'm tempted the same. We agree, it seems
08:01<@planetmaker>and it seems that TB already has some prototype scripting for blender. So we've even something to start from ;-)
08:01<Ammler>planetmaker: well, the branch for tagging was useless
08:02<@Yexo>yes, that would be very nice :)
08:02<Ammler>as tags are globally, also if you make those in a tag
08:02<andythenorth>Yexo: yes, that's bandit, but that code isn't committed
08:02<Ammler>now you need merge for 0
08:02<@Yexo>andythenorth: can you provide a diff of code you tried?
08:02<@planetmaker>Ammler: yes. I know. It's more to indicate that further things in default need not be part of 0.4.x releases this year
08:02<andythenorth>Yexo there's only one proper vehicle in bandit - in sprites/nml/trucks/test_vehicle
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08:02<andythenorth>I'll just commit it not working
08:02<@planetmaker>andythenorth: you know hg diff > patchfile ?
08:03<@planetmaker>comitting w/o working is... strange
08:03<@planetmaker>what's wrong with that then?
08:03<TrueBrain>Yexo: are there enough blend uploads on jupix?
08:03<@Yexo>not many, but I'll scrape what files I can get
08:03<LordAro>plenty ;)
08:03<andythenorth>planetmaker: then I have to upload to devzone or paste - but ok :P
08:04<TrueBrain>as tbh, only blend files are useful
08:04<TrueBrain>any uploaded pngs are basically useless on the long term
08:04<@Yexo>TrueBrain: last time I looked, there were quite a few. Most of them only had z0 sprites rendered
08:04<@Yexo>at the time I wanted at least normal zoom sprites since that was the only thing trunk supported
08:04<LordAro>basically, most 'Released' entries have blend files
08:04<TrueBrain>LordAro: that is good to know
08:05<TrueBrain>I noticed that the default blend on the wiki has some slight mistakes
08:05<TrueBrain>enough to create pixel errors
08:05<LordAro>that doesn't surprise me, tbh :P
08:05<@Yexo>doesn't surprise me either
08:05<TrueBrain>it did to me; if you upload a blend for others to work from, at least make sure it is 100% :P
08:05<LordAro>however, seems to be down
08:06<@Yexo>all the more reason to stop using it
08:06<andythenorth>articulated cb was an issue with duplicate files in my local repo
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08:18<TrueBrain>its funny, because it is true
08:19<TrueBrain>time for the last xmas dinner of the year! o/
08:21<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23673 /trunk/os/ (2 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: prepare the installers for some (future) massive changes in OpenGFX w.r.t. compatability with earlier versions
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08:28<Irenicus>hello everyone
08:29<Rubidium>hello someone
08:30<@Terkhen>hi Irenicus
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08:33<Irenicus>i'm new to the community (Yogscaster as it were), can you tell me if there's any info on how a vehicle breaksdown (I know it depends on the difficulty setting, but is there a general idea)?
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08:36<Rubidium>there a 'maximum' reliability for a vehicle. When just leaving the depot this is at its highest and it slowly decreases. The chance on a breakdown is related to the 'current' reliability percentage
08:37<Rubidium>during the model life the maximum reliablity will start low, increase (not necessarily to 100%) and decrease again once the model gets older
08:40<andythenorth>how do I 'shorten' a vehicle to 8/8 with nml?
08:41<andythenorth>(case is I have template, and use a define for length)
08:41<andythenorth>I have to use #ifdef?
08:42<@planetmaker>just use the proper keyword directly as the value for the property or callback result
08:42<@planetmaker>and in case of no shortening just use the value for full vehicle length
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08:43*Alberth thinks andy wants an 'if' evaluation in the template :p
08:44<andythenorth>I'll use the keyword
08:44<andythenorth>I'm not used to all the magic built-ins yet
08:47<LordAro> is working again, FYI
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09:00<vargadanis|afk20>andythenorth, can I download FIRS already:)
09:00<vargadanis|afk20>or shall I still wait a little bit longer?
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09:00<@planetmaker>you can always download it... But the current bananas version is a few months old
09:01<andythenorth>vargadanis: wait a bit :P
09:01<@planetmaker>wait for next year for a new version ;-)
09:01<vargadanis>oh.. I guess I should go for nightly
09:01<@planetmaker>that's an option
09:01<vargadanis>if you want I gladly beta test if you need another someone
09:02<@Terkhen>beta testing is always welcome :)
09:02<@Terkhen>(both for OpenTTD 1.2.0 and FIRS 0.7)
09:02<vargadanis>the project webste is redmine?
09:03<vargadanis>sweet... love redmine
09:03<@Terkhen>yeah, it's quite nice
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09:03<vargadanis>so it would be best if i tested ttd 1.2.0 with FIRS 0.7? :)
09:03<@planetmaker>vargadanis: testing the nightlies is always very welcome
09:03<@planetmaker>that'll make sure that the releases will be better :-)
09:04<vargadanis>tbh I got completly hooked
09:04<vargadanis>never played with any game that gave me so much ... fun :)
09:04<@Alberth>vargadanis: that's common amongst new players :)
09:04<vargadanis>okay, I'll make a separate installation for 1.2 and FIRS
09:04<vargadanis>and see what happens
09:05<Irenicus>i'm trying to figure out how many days a vehicle can travel before a breakdown
09:05<vargadanis>btw... a feature request... a map size of 4096x4096
09:06<Irenicus>is there any data that says something like "80% vehicle has a 90% chance to have a breakdown in two months" etc?
09:06<vargadanis>Irenicus, I believe it works differently... it always have a chance to break down and the chance of breakdown increases with the passing of time
09:06<Rubidium>first prove you can connect everything on a 2048x2048 map and have it run without slowdowns
09:06<vargadanis>after the last maintenance
09:07<Irenicus>because passing of time brings reliability down yes
09:07<@Alberth>Irenicus: I use the simple approach that higher reliability gives me less breakdowns on average
09:07<vargadanis>Rubidium, cannot do that O_o
09:07<Rubidium>so why a 4096x4096 map?
09:08<vargadanis>well dunno... I just figured that I started on a 128x128 map
09:08<vargadanis>now am at 512x512
09:08<vargadanis>and everything is connected pretty much
09:08<vargadanis>in a few months I figured that 2048x2048 wouldn't be big enough :)
09:08<@Alberth>in how many years?
09:08<vargadanis>started at 1950 and by 1980 everything was hooked
09:09<vargadanis>well everything that was worth mentioning
09:09<vargadanis>coal mines with 24tons of prod was omitted
09:09<@Alberth>1K^2 is 4 times as big, so you'll need 120 years
09:09<@Alberth>2K^2 is 16 times as big
09:09<@Alberth>@calc 16 * 30
09:09<@DorpsGek>Alberth: 480
09:10<vargadanis>well didn't think that one through
09:10<vargadanis>is openttd being developed in C or C++?
09:10<@Alberth>it's C++
09:10<Rubidium>that's debatable ;)
09:10<appe>oh, sorry.
09:10<@Alberth>but there is a lot of C-like code around
09:11<vargadanis>I noticed that when running ttd only one of my cores are being utilized
09:11<vargadanis>does ttd use treads or something that could be distributed between cores?
09:11<@Alberth>that's debatable too :)
09:12<vargadanis>uff okkay :)
09:12<vargadanis>I'll stick to what I know best
09:12<vargadanis>play the game and leave these things to ya :)
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09:15<vargadanis|TTDing>yeah got it
09:16<vargadanis|TTDing>it doesn occur to me: there are huge MMOs out there which has to work in the very same deterministic way TTD is supposed to work, yet thee calculations are distributed between many nodes of a cluster
09:16<vargadanis|TTDing>but again that is a completly different thing again
09:18<@planetmaker>vargadanis|TTDing: you might consider to not change your nick to reflect everything you do. Just keep your nick... also for afk and stuff.
09:20<@Alberth>vargadanis|TTDing: OpenTTD works differently; every machine participating in the game runs all computations. Otherwise you don't have enough band width at the network.
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09:53<CIA-6>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r23674 /trunk/src/blitter/32bpp_simple.cpp: -Fix (r23670): Don't read invalid memory in the 32bpp simple blitter.
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09:54<@Alberth>apparently, nobody has put it at the wiki
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11:23<LordAro>"Error creating thumbnail: sh: /usr/bin/convert: not found" <-- on the wiki
11:23<LordAro>^ Truebrain?
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11:24<@planetmaker>it's always a good idea to include the issue in the same line as the highlight ;-) When reading back (much) later it's otherwise not visible anymore
11:24<@planetmaker>(but don't repeat it now) ;-)
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12:07<LordAro>gah, why is it 2 really useful too,d for 32bpp-ez (pngcrop and pngresize) are written in delphi??
12:12<LordAro>still, seems to work with wine
12:14<@planetmaker>use NML ;-)
12:15<LordAro>for offsets of ez pngs?
12:18<@planetmaker>it's not well tested, but should work. Look for alternative_sprites in the nml documentation
12:18<@planetmaker>though for how it works currently, pngcodec etc might be better suited
12:25<LordAro>ha :P
12:25<LordAro>argh, anyone any good at batch scripting?
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12:29<@Alberth>try shell-scripting instead :p
12:29<@Alberth>or a Makefile :)
12:33<LordAro>can't it involves wine cmd :(
12:33<LordAro>either way, i got wrote it out manually, rather than use a for loop
12:38<@Alberth>batch does not have a for-loop, unless they changed it in the past 15 years :p
12:38<LordAro> <-- aparrently so :P
12:39<@Alberth>finally :D
12:40<@Alberth>I was missing it 15 years ago :)
12:41<LordAro>you of all people shold know computing changes lots in 15 years :P
12:42<@Alberth>nah, you just get a bunch of new hypes that everybody jumps on :p
12:42<@Alberth>(just kidding)
12:45<LordAro>well, with windoze that isn't too far off :)
12:46<SpComb^>cmd.exe has a variety of for loops
12:46<SpComb^>it can do files-in-dir, fields-in-lines-in-files and whatnot
12:49<LordAro>bored noaw. anyone help with my microphone problem?
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13:22<Eddi|zuHause>can we have mouse wheel going to zoom 1x, and ctrl+mouse wheel go x2 and x4?
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13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: translators * r23675 /trunk/src/lang/ (4 files in 2 dirs):
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: belarusian - 3 changes by Wowanxm
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: indonesian - 18 changes by fanioz
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: persian - 47 changes by Peymanpn
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: urdu - 19 changes by haider
14:15<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: where are your cargo class draft specs?
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14:35<insulfrog>hi all
14:36<@planetmaker> <-- there, Eddi|zuHause. I made your suggestion official ;-)
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14:36<@planetmaker>as no-one dared, obviously
14:40<@Alberth>good night all
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14:42<insulfrog>I have been having a go at the NoGo system that is in the r23672 nightly along with the 2 extra zoom levels, looks good so far
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14:46<insulfrog>do you think that the NoGo system might lead to an 'objective' system like there is in other 'transport-based' tycoon games?
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14:57<@planetmaker>depends what you make of it, insulfrog
15:00<insulfrog>well I do say that it is very early to tell withouth an extensive set of NoGo scripts and some very creative people writing them
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15:20<insulfrog>I am thinking about Railroad Tycoon (2 and 3) too often about thinking about 'mission objectives' (i.e. deliver many cargo x to place y or make z amount of money, etc :p ) but perhaps something similar can be done in openttd if NoGo is successful
15:21<andythenorth>insulfrog I dunno what inspired TB to do NoGo, but I have been asking for that for some years :)
15:22<andythenorth>I doubt that my request is why it got done though :D
15:23<TrueBrain>LordAro: I would have no clue; I dont maintain the mediawiki installation .. I guess Rubidium knows more about those issues
15:23<@planetmaker>insulfrog: it can be done. Right now
15:23<@planetmaker>just write your script to ensure that ;-)
15:24<TrueBrain>andythenorth: I presented a small list of things I would be willing to do to the OpenTTD dev (when talking over what OpenTTD needs), and they picked NoGo as the thing to do (to give a rough summary :p). It wasnt until a few days into working on it I read that others had the same idea over the years :P
15:24<TrueBrain>(only underlines the long standing need for something like that :P)
15:24<insulfrog>if that is going to be successful, we will need to create something a bit more 'user friendly' rather than writing a script like a complex pregramming language
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15:25<@planetmaker>insulfrog: ehm... no?
15:25<andythenorth>making it harder reduces the number of people who can do it
15:25<andythenorth>which is good
15:25<@planetmaker>you cannot have the full flexibility and the "one button solves it all"
15:25<@planetmaker>Just download your favourite script, if you don#t feel like programming
15:25<@planetmaker>via ingame content download
15:25<@planetmaker>but then... you've got to eat what is being served
15:26<@planetmaker>it's an option. How people use it: up to them
15:26<@planetmaker>it's the same difficulty level as AI or NewGRFs
15:26<@planetmaker>for the user and the programmer
15:28<insulfrog>if railroad tycoon 2 and 3 can create a mission based scenario in the game itself with a few dialogue boxes then surley something similar can be done in openttd.
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15:28<andythenorth>I thought the RT3 scenarios were scripted?
15:28<@planetmaker>yes. Just click 'use this scenario script' and be done. Even simpler
15:29<andythenorth>I never made any, but reading hawkdawg, I thought the more crafted scenarios used simple scripting
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15:29<andythenorth>BANDIT trucks name strings will be [Manufacturer] [Model name]
15:30<andythenorth>but for an alphabetised sort, that might be annoying?
15:30<Zuu>insulfrog: Also, we are at a moment where people with skills that are not really have a full idea of what to do with NoGo. It just opens too many posibilities. :-)
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15:30<Zuu>You'll have to wait for people to figure out smart ways to use the scripting environment and produce good and well designed goal packages.
15:30<TrueBrain>I see no issues to (over time) make a simple dialog to click a few entries to start specific scenario
15:31<TrueBrain>of course someone will have to write a script for that
15:31<TrueBrain>but it should be easy enough (over time) to make it configurable to an extend it feels like you are configuring a scenario
15:31<TrueBrain>but like said, NoGo atm is for script writers to present something to users
15:31<TrueBrain>not for end-users
15:31<@planetmaker>like the new newgrf possibilities, too
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15:32<@planetmaker>it's not like you can now magically expect old sets to refit in stations ;-)
15:32<TrueBrain>but but but but
15:33*andythenorth makes trucks
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15:37<andythenorth>hola Snail_
15:37<Snail_>hey andy
15:37<Snail_>how's it going?
15:42<TrueBrain>they go: vroem vroem
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16:33<TrueBrain>LordAro: wiki issue fixed
16:35<LordAro>yay :)
16:35<TrueBrain>thank Rubidium :P
16:36<TrueBrain>he knew what was missing :)
16:37<LordAro>at least someone did :P
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16:58<LordAro>Truebrain: i was about to complain that the problem is still there, but then i remembered to hard refresh :)
17:00<insulfrog>well, gotta go, cyas
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18:21<@Terkhen>good night
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19:10<Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> articulated cb was an issue with duplicate files in my local repo <-- didn't i say you were modifying the wrong file?
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19:38<Eddi|zuHause>"Japanese government report discovers: Fukushima was not prepared for the catastrophe!"
19:39<glx>that's not surprising
19:41<glx>looking how tepco reacted after the catastrophe
19:43<Eddi|zuHause>"i'm sick of japanese managers having no clue and apologizing. a german manager wouldn't have a clue either, but he would NEVER apologize!"
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23:26<athief>anyone not idle? have a question
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---Logclosed Tue Dec 27 00:00:01 2011