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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-12-28

---Logopened Wed Dec 28 00:00:20 2011
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00:14<winner10>does anyone know how to record OPENTTD?
00:15<winner10>seriously does anyone know i cant seem to find a forum thread about it
00:15<winner10>if i could get a link to a thread bout it that would be nice
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03:50<Rubidium>oh shoot... is it morning already? ;)
03:51<@Terkhen>good morning
03:51<@Terkhen>sadly yes :)
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04:57<@peter1138>cities in motion... heh
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04:58<jonty-comp>it's like openttd, only without any of the things that make openttd good
04:58<@peter1138>pretty graphics but otherwise really limited
04:58<@peter1138>4 whole cities?
04:59<@peter1138>over _30_ different vehicles...
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05:00<jonty-comp>but! it has a limited form of passenger destinations
05:01<jonty-comp>in so far as "person from red area will go to...anywhere in blue area"
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05:02<andythenorth>maybe that's the solution to YACD :P
05:02<andythenorth>set each tile to have 1 of 16 colours
05:02<@peter1138>not really
05:03<andythenorth>route cargo packets to any tile that is the right colour :P
05:03<@peter1138>heh, garry's mod, £1.49
05:04<jonty-comp>too bad i've already owned it for 5 years
05:04<jonty-comp>and not played it for 2 :p
05:05<@peter1138>all looks a bit pointless
05:06<jonty-comp>i just used to dick about with the space station mod
05:06<jonty-comp>in fact, i should think that gun i textured is still in there
05:06<jonty-comp>most contribution i've ever made to a community project :P
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05:12<andythenorth>there's a mac version of CiM
05:13<andythenorth>so...try a new game, or write newgrf?
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05:17<Eddi|zuHause>hm... how does one do case-insensitive comparison in python?
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05:19<Eddi|zuHause>apparently, string.lower()
05:22<andythenorth>BANDIt is slow progress
05:23<Rubidium>if the coding is slow, maybe make some zoomed in graphics? ;)
05:23<andythenorth>coding is fast
05:23<andythenorth>set design is slow
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05:26<Wolf01>ho o/
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05:49*andythenorth watches smokey and the bandit for inspiration
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05:52<Wolf01>anybody wants to help me setting up the environment to build OTTD with VC100?
05:54*Alberth does want to, but has less knowledge than the person asking for assistance
05:56<Wolf01>seem I miss some libraries, but I added the path of the "useful" folder to the includes
05:56<Rubidium>ah, we're slowly getting from the meta question to the actual question ;)
05:58<Wolf01>vc++ -> linker -> general -> additional libraries wtf = myproject\ottd\useful\win32\libraries; it should be right, or I missed something?
05:59<__ln__>not running VC++ in italian?
05:59<Rubidium>the directx library I'd reckon
05:59<Wolf01>yes italian
05:59<__ln__>ok, good
05:59<__ln__>though i doubt that has anything to do with the problem one way or another
06:00<Wolf01>I was sure I had the dx library, I carry on the same folder since I was building on my old laptop
06:01<Rubidium>but without the actual error message or the name of the missing libraries that's pure interjection
06:01<Wolf01>I just update the ottduseful files
06:01<Wolf01>unicode and zlib headers
06:02<Rubidium>now I'm confused... are you missing the headers or the libraries?
06:02<Wolf01>it says the headers, but it's all there
06:03<Wolf01>I'll retry adding every folder I find
06:04<Rubidium>well, only talked about adding the library folder, but you need to add the include folders to the additional includes as well (the one in shared/include)
06:05<Wolf01>just did it, same problem
06:06<Rubidium>then I have no clue
06:07<@Terkhen>Wolf01: I usually follow the tutorial for MSVC 2008 except the "add libraries" part
06:07<@Terkhen>to add the libraries permanently, you need to open a project (any project)
06:09<@Terkhen>go to the property manager (there are some tabs at the lower left corner)
06:09<Wolf01>Yes I'm doing so, but in the tools->options-<project and solutions it says this way of adding libraries is deprecate
06:09<@Terkhen>there you will find Microsoft.Cpp.Win32.user
06:09<Wolf01>so I tried to load them for the project
06:09<@Terkhen>(there is a x64 equivalent too)
06:10<@Terkhen>if you acess the properties of Microsoft.Cpp.Win32.user and add your libraries / headers there, they are always used in all of your projects
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06:12<mariux>i cant find a mirror for 1.2.0-beta1 for windows, can anyone help me out?
06:12<mariux>since the website is down
06:12<@Terkhen>Wolf01: <-- you can also check this... I think that he never finished it
06:12<@Terkhen>mariux: the website works fine for me
06:12<mariux>its down here and have been so for 30+ min
06:13<@Yexo>mariux: the website is definitely not down
06:13<@Terkhen>mariux: <-- try this, it will tell you if a website is down for real or only for you
06:13<Wolf01>thank you, I'll give it a look
06:13<@Yexo>if it doesn't work for you it's something at your (or your ISPs) end
06:13<@Terkhen>regarding mirrors... try
06:14<mariux>maybe it is a problem with this unblock me thing am using
06:14<mariux>that mirror was is also down for me :P
06:15<mariux>thanks :D
06:19<Wolf01>yay, compiling
06:19<Wolf01>I was just adding the libraries in the wrong place
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07:13*Zuu realizes that he have swaped delete and backspace the other day when he had to pull out those keys to clean them of some beer that accidently got on the keyboard. :-)
07:15<TrueBrain>do you still look at your keyboard?
07:15<TrueBrain>I switched a few keys months ago, and I only found out when my roommate tried to type on it :P
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07:31<Eddi|zuHause>how can that be? backspace is twice as big as delete :=)
07:32<appe>..on most keyboards.
07:33<appe>backspace usually is, even on the smallest keyboards.
07:36<Eddi|zuHause>well, there are variant keyboard layouts where the return key is bigger, and the key next to return is put next to backspace instead
07:37<Eddi|zuHause>that's # on german keyboards
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08:19<Zuu>TrueBrain: I don't generally look on my keyboard. Most keys don't to what the label says anyways. (qwerty labels and svorak behaviour)
08:23<Zuu>Eddi|zuHause: On my keyboard backspace and delete have the same size althoug slighly different angle of the surface.
08:25<Zuu>as a hint they are both located at left thumb :-)
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09:01<@Alberth>Hello sir B
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09:23<@Belugas>hello 2u,2 uncle albert :)
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10:50<burtybob>I'm trying to add to the admin network so that it sends the expenses breakdown. I've done that but is there anyway to make it server? As when trying to connect with a vanilla copy I get protocol error. Presumbly because I've modified the admin packet to send more data.
10:54<Eddi|zuHause>and now we're supposed to guess your modifications to help you fixing it?
10:56<Eddi|zuHause>you can output custom data to the admin port by running a game script and sending it as a JSON object
10:56<Eddi|zuHause>(in trunk/1.2.0-beta1, not in 1.1.4)
10:57<burtybob>p->Send_uint64(company->yearly_expenses[0][EXPENSES_CONSTRUCTION]); That line just before the sendpacket call in the send company economy function in the network admin.cpp file.
10:57<burtybob>Do you have a link to documentation regarding the game scripts please?
10:57<Eddi|zuHause>there's a thread in the forum
10:58<burtybob>ok, thanks
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11:48<Elukka>Eddi|zuHause: any suggestions?
11:50<Elukka>i like the side view, not so much the diagonal
11:58<Eddi|zuHause>the windows might be slightly too big
11:59<Eddi|zuHause>and the roof too smooth
12:00<@peter1138>greeble it
12:08<Elukka>i could make the bigger windows 2x2 too
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12:08<Elukka>don't know about the roof... there seem to be multiple types
12:09<Elukka>the drawing you linked it doesn't seem to be smooth, in the models it's smooth but it has those... thingies on top at regular intervals
12:10<Eddi|zuHause>with the big windows it looks too modern
12:17<Elukka>wish i had more pixels to work with :(
12:17<TrueBrain>DorpsGek: bark
12:17<TrueBrain>stupid connections :(
12:17<Elukka>window tweaks, better looking variant of the roof
12:17<TrueBrain>terrible slow :(
12:22<Eddi|zuHause>ship it! :)
12:27<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: in the \ view the signs below the windows are too big, and the doors should be showing that they are further inside. the connection between the wagons should probably be narrower
12:33<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23680 /trunk/src/console_cmds.cpp: -Fix [FS#4915]: prevent removal of the (AI) company the local player is in
12:33<Elukka>the signs are 1 px but they kinda blend in with the windows... gotta try something else with them
12:33<Elukka>agreed on the gangways
12:34<Elukka>the window color tends to blend in with this particular green too - the \ windows are brighter than they 'should' be because otherwise it's a mushy mess
12:34<Eddi|zuHause>that's alright, i suppose
12:34<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23681 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#4914]: vehicle numbers got misaccounted when autoreplacing failed due to length checks
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13:22<Joe>Hi all, can somebody help me a moment to get started adding further translatiosn to the OTTD-Wiki?
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13:23<insulfrog>and what language are you translating to?
13:23<ZirconiumX>Hello everyone, hope you all had a merry Xmas (those who celebrate it)!
13:24<insulfrog>I do mr ZirconiumX :)
13:24<Eddi|zuHause>bah! humbug!
13:24*insulfrog shoots Eddi :p
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13:25*ZirconiumX scolds insulfrog for sounding like a set of model railway points
13:25<insulfrog>that's where exactly the name came from :)
13:26<ZirconiumX>Glad we share a common interest
13:26<Joe>my trouble is that I never worked on a wiki so far, I see the style guide and so on but was wondering whether they are needed for just translating existing articles or if there is a way to 'copy' the english article and translate to german on the fly
13:27<Joe>sorry if other noobs had this question prior already. But after having translated the hotkey reference sheet I wanna do more within my abilities.
13:27<insulfrog>you could babelfish but I am not sure how accurate it is though
13:28<ZirconiumX>Google translate
13:28<Joe>the translating itself is no problem as I am fluent with both languages
13:29<Joe>just do not want to have to start each from scratch with copying pictures from the previous articles and so on
13:29<Eddi|zuHause>Joe: just click "edit" and copy the contents
13:29<@Terkhen>look at how it was done with other translated articles
13:29*Terkhen has no idea about wiki either
13:29<Joe>THX eddi, will try out and come back crying if I can not get it done. ;)
13:33<@planetmaker>ZirconiumX: using google translate results for creating a 'translated' website is very bad and must not be done - especially as google allows to do that on the fly
13:33<insulfrog>translation tools are fine but accuracy still could remain a problem (please excuse me if I sound skeptic)
13:34<@planetmaker>Joe: I'd copy the "source" of the English page (i.e. open it as 'edit' and copy it) and then create the new page, paste the original one and hand-translate the text
13:34<ZirconiumX>@planetmaker Sorry
13:34<@planetmaker>that's how I'd do it
13:35<Joe>THX to you too planetmaker, just realized that I should start by creating an account... (StupidMe)
13:35<@planetmaker>but don't just copy the English and then... create a 'German' page with English text. I've seen such on the wiki for some other language, too... that's quite stupid
13:35<@planetmaker>haha, yes :-)
13:35<@planetmaker>an account is helpful
13:39<Zuu>Hmm, half of the translations that I've received for TransportGoals uses something else than UTF8. :-(
13:40<Zuu>And I though I was too clear about it.
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13:40<SpComb>and encodings are hard
13:42<@Terkhen>Zuu: sorry, I forgot
13:42<Zuu>Yep, I have to use iconv, just have to figure out which encoding to go from.
13:42<@Terkhen>I reuploaded the spanish translation in UTF-8
13:42<Zuu>Terkhen: Thanks
13:42<@planetmaker>Zuu: you can be as clear as you want about that. People have no clue about encoding
13:42<@planetmaker>they just use what their editor uses
13:42<Zuu>Then I only have to figure out which encoding the french translation is in.
13:43<Rubidium>usually iso8859-15
13:45<valhallasw>or windows-1252, but they are the same for most characters
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: translators * r23682 /trunk/src/lang/ (catalan.txt serbian.txt):
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: catalan - 2 changes by arnau
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: serbian - 11 changes by etran
13:45<Zuu>Could be the windows1252 too. At least csv files from excel tend to use windows1252.
13:52<__ln__>indeed, 8859-15 is rare, 1252 is common.
13:53<valhallasw>8859-15 is/was used on linux, 1252 on windows
13:54<valhallasw>(for some reason, all french linux computers I've used used 8859-15 instead of utf-8)
13:56<__ln__>valhallasw: yes, that's what i said, is/was used on linux => rare. :)
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14:03<Joe>planetmaker: guess I should save the translation file as UTF-8, right?
14:03<@planetmaker>translating wikis does not require use of any files... ?
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14:04<Joe>saving on my desktop so I can work on translations on the go without needing internet access. Trust that I will try out everything in the sandbox before uploading/adding to the wiki. ;)
14:07<@planetmaker>is an internet connection a problem?
14:07<@planetmaker>I mean you're free to work as it suits you. I'd just be surprised to see wiki work done offline beforehand
14:08<Joe>when I am on the bus or subway on my way to work: yes
14:08<Joe>at home: no
14:08<@planetmaker>utf-8 would be the suitable encoding, I guess, yes
14:08<@planetmaker>fair enough during travel :-)
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14:11<Eddi|zuHause>engines are weird... weight is usually given without tender, but length with tender...
14:14<insulfrog>well, cyas
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14:31<@Belugas>and it keeps on snowing
14:32<Eddi|zuHause>not here...
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14:35<andythenorth>is roadtypes actually hard to do? Or is it just tiresome?
14:35<andythenorth>(apropros of suggestions forum)
14:35*Belugas pushes some flakes toward Eddi|zuHause
14:35<@Belugas>hallo andythenorth
14:35<@Belugas>dunno 'bout your question, never tried it
14:35<andythenorth>bonsoir Belugas
14:36<andythenorth>when I started looking at it, it didn't look insanely, bafflingly hard
14:36<Eddi|zuHause>no, it would mostly be adapting the railtype code
14:36<andythenorth>but as a 'my first C++ project' I didn't get very far :P
14:37<Eddi|zuHause>the "problem" is that there are more than one roadtype on one tile
14:37<andythenorth>we had a solution for that
14:37<andythenorth>only two types allowed
14:37<andythenorth>and only one catenary type gets drawn
14:38<TrueBrain>enough _m bits available?
14:38<andythenorth>if you want 'road with tram tracks' crossing 'dirt road with trolley power for dump trucks'
14:38<andythenorth>then you need a type 'road with tram tracks'
14:38<andythenorth>you can't composite 'road' + 'tram tracks'
14:38<andythenorth>due to lack of bits
14:38<andythenorth>but that seemed very acceptable to me
14:39<andythenorth>I got as far as shuffling some roadworks _m bits, then got stuck in savegame code :P
14:39<andythenorth>so not very far
14:40<TrueBrain>ugh, Steam servers are SLOW. No surprise with all the free stuff going on :(
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: but only 2 types is really limiting
14:43<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: dunno what to say :)
14:43<andythenorth>new map array?
14:43<andythenorth>when it was discussed, we tried to make 3 fit into 2
14:43<andythenorth>bit unfortunately we couldn't change how maths works :P
14:44<andythenorth>I have a bit of spec....somewhere
14:44<TrueBrain>fail on your part :D
14:44<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: it's not just 2 types. It's as many horrible buy menu combos as the roadtpe grf author has chosen to provide....
14:45<andythenorth>it's not so different to railtypes anyway
14:45<andythenorth>'200km / h electrified railway also with third rail and 17t axle load' :P
14:45<andythenorth>is not much different to 'paved road, 30km / h with tram tracks and trolley poles'
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14:46<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: but if you want to encode "subway" into it, then you easily run out
14:48<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23683 /trunk/src/ (4 files):
14:48<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Fix [FS#4912]-ish: when fitting another engine the cargo capacity of wagons
14:48<CIA-6>OpenTTD: could become lower, causing them to contain more than they should. This caused
14:48<CIA-6>OpenTTD: the cargo transfer from the replaced parts to put even more stuff in the already
14:48<CIA-6>OpenTTD: full wagon. Prevent this from happening by reducing the amount of cargo in the
14:48<CIA-6>OpenTTD: vehicle to the capacity when moving vehicles/wagons around, or when
14:48<CIA-6>OpenTTD: autoreplacing
14:49<Rubidium>don't forget to encode the safety systems in the rail type
14:49<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: 'paved road, 30km/h with tram tracks and trolley poles, plus subway with third rail' :P
14:49<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: then you run out of 16 roadtypes
14:49<andythenorth>it's a harsh life :)
14:50<andythenorth>so extend number of types?
14:50<andythenorth>also - per rack rail discussion :)
14:53<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: so it's (a) extend map array (b) extend number of possible roadtypes (currently three) to > 16 or (c) do nothing
14:54<Rubidium>three possible road types?
14:59<Rubidium>well, road, tram and railroad?
14:59<andythenorth>isn't it marked as HWAY in the source?
14:59<andythenorth>for hysterical raisins?
14:59<andythenorth>I don't mean three per tile
15:01<andythenorth>yup, HWAY - only in comments though
15:06<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23684 /trunk/src/ (road_cmd.cpp road_func.h): -Cleanup: let the highway take the highway
15:07<Rubidium>what HWAY comments? ;)
15:07<TrueBrain>one of the futeares that got never implemented?:P
15:07<andythenorth>did that comment have a 'use by' date on it?
15:08<andythenorth>TrueBrain: futeares is more accurate
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15:08<Rubidium>yep, highway got trashed in favour of having 2 of 16 route types on a tile instead of 3 (of 3)
15:10<andythenorth>3 of 3 might have been sufficient :)
15:10<andythenorth>but nvm
15:12<@peter1138>and 4 railtypes were too...
15:14<andythenorth>and 640KB
15:14<TrueBrain>and Windows 3.11
15:15<andythenorth>is it weird if truck capacity gets large, then smaller?
15:15<andythenorth>over time
15:15<andythenorth>not per vehicle :P
15:15<andythenorth>in the 1920s / 1930s trucks in the US weren't much regulated
15:16<Zuu>Some users might complain. But it might give interesting gameplay situations.
15:16<andythenorth>rapid technological improvement made for some very big powerful trucks
15:16<andythenorth>then they got legislated :)
15:22<vargadanis>it is sooo hard to make a working station
15:23<andythenorth>compare and
15:24<andythenorth>1930s (restricted) and 1920s (unrestricted)
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16:38<Elukka>Eddi|zuHause: what do you think?
16:38<Elukka>i wanna get the side and diagonal views done before i start working with the other ones to save me some pain later
16:38<Eddi|zuHause>the \ view looks somewhat off
16:39<Elukka>in what way?
16:40<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: did the railtype labels discussion consider mixed gauge?
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16:41<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: that's irrelevant as there won't ever be vehicles for mixed gauge. so the track set offering it can freely make up a lable
16:42<Eddi|zuHause>(and set powered/compatible accordingly)
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17:35<andythenorth>not much use in game (for most cargos) until they can carry about 20t
17:35<andythenorth>but the upper limit on cargo is about 35t for highway trucks
17:36<andythenorth>so the usual 'bigger' model progression just doesn't work
17:37<Hirundo>progress in power/top speed instead?
17:37<andythenorth>or at least, spacing it out over 50 years or so is hard
17:37<andythenorth>they'll get to high weights quickly
17:37<andythenorth>then as you say
17:38<Hirundo>as capacity per month = power * speed (roughly)
17:39<Hirundo>for realism, running (fuel) costs should rise through the years for all trucks, but newer ones should be more efficient
17:40<Mek>the things you do when you have lots of free time during christmas holidays... (don't mind the uglyness, I'm not a graphics person :) )
17:41<Elukka>what exactly are we looking at? is it actually running openttd in a different graphics engine?
17:42<Mek>yeah, it is actually openttd running with an opengl real 3d graphics engine
17:45<Elukka>how functional is the game on it?
17:45<Elukka>keep working on it and it could be the best thing in openttd since... well, openttd itself
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17:46<Elukka>prettier graphics for it can always come later
17:50<Elukka>hey, you know what'd be a nice thing?
17:50<Elukka>if you could lock it to an isometric (or whatever projection openttd uses) projection and make it load existing sprites
17:51<Elukka>we could see how much faster the game would be if the graphics were done on the gpu
17:51<Elukka>that's how a bunch of modern 2D games do it; flat textures and locked camera on a 3D engine
17:51<Elukka>it'd be immensely useful to free up cpu resources to other purposes
17:54<Mek>yeah... shouldn't be too hard (although completely different from what I'm currently doing of course)
17:55<Elukka>well, i'd do that first, but it's your project
17:55<Elukka>wouldn't require new art assets and would be immediately useful
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18:05<andythenorth>bed time
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18:07<Elukka>it's also something that people have said would be extremely hard to do but you seem to have gone a good way towards it :P
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19:24<FLHerne>Is anyone awake?
19:25<FLHerne>Just seemed a bit quiet on here...
19:27<Mark>It's the days between Christmas and New Year Eve.
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19:31<Bawx>When I am trying to install OpenTTD 1.2.0-beta1, it says "Downloading of OpenMSX failed". Why does that happen?
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20:20<mooseman>Anybody else playing OpenTTD on Ubuntu? :D
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21:33<AndroUser>:l How do I change my nick?
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21:44<mooseman>Are you on Ubuntu, Kendued?
21:44<^-_Kendued_-^>Lol i i guess you found me playng with /nick
21:44<^-_Kendued_-^>No, Im on android
21:44<mooseman>'night all
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21:46<^-_Kendued_-^>Anyone else to talk to online?
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22:05<Afdal>Can someone explain to me how depot pathfinding for maintenance works?
22:06<Afdal>Why do trains service more often when you split depots from the main track using a path signal than with block or presignals?
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22:38<Afdal>Do trians only look ahead for 9 tiles when pathfinding?
22:40<Afdal>or is it 8 tile
22:40<Afdal>or 8.5
22:58<Eddi|zuHause>there is a setting for the maximum distance
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23:11<Afdal>What's the setting?
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---Logclosed Thu Dec 29 00:00:22 2011