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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-12-30

---Logopened Fri Dec 30 00:00:32 2011
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02:49<encoded>lol wtf
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03:04<encoded>can i just unzip the nightly build over an installed stable?
03:04<encoded>too late
03:10<@Alberth>sounds like a good way to make a big mess of your file system to me :p
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03:16<encoded>its in D:\games\openttd not program files if thats what you mean
03:18<encoded>can someone explain how to get 2 trains in 1 track? i never did it like that in original TTD
03:18<@Alberth>no, I meant that now you have no way of knowing which file is used and which one is not.
03:20<@Alberth>there is also a Signals wiki page, which you may read after the tutorial
03:20<@Alberth>+want to
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03:23<@planetmaker>encoded: the best choice is to not unpack *over* another installed version, but just unpack the game into a new directory
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03:38<dihedral>Eddi|zuHause, what about LTE? did you check the coverage of that?
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04:18<Eddi|zuHause>dihedral: i did, but they limit bandwidth to what i have right now after ridiculously low amounts of traffic
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04:44<@Terkhen>good morning
04:50<dihedral>Eddi|zuHause, that is a sad story indeed
04:50<dihedral>i just got myself internet from "kabelbw"
04:51<dihedral>as the standard dsl line would not go beyond 2Mbit/s
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04:58<__ln__>, said andythenorth
04:59<encoded>its 6am
04:59<encoded>wtf are you guys doing up?
05:00<andythenorth>there speaks a man without children
05:00<dihedral>it is 6am in YOUR timezone
05:01<@Terkhen>it's 11 AM here, and I'm busy enjoying my holidays :)
05:03*Alberth wonders how you can be busy doing that :p
05:05<@Terkhen>being with the family, slacking and playing games take all of my time :P
05:06<@Alberth>enjoy :)
05:07<@Terkhen>it's almost time to go back, though
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05:45<andythenorth>HEQS ^ ?
05:48<@Alberth>industrial tram :)
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05:56<andythenorth>there's one a bit like that already in the game
05:56<andythenorth>game / set /s
05:56<andythenorth>those are standard gauge
05:58<@Alberth>likely they picked whatever was easily available
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06:01*andythenorth ponders industrial rail vehicles
06:01<andythenorth>maybe a railtype
06:02<andythenorth>meh - there would have to be signals and things
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06:11<@Alberth>man included at the front :p
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06:23<@Alberth>moin Wolf01
06:23<Wolf01>hello o/
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07:07<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23687 /trunk/readme.txt: -Fix [FS#4922]: document where the game script directory is
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07:17<lordnokon>hi people
07:18<lordnokon>i need a bit of help beter understanding min profit under the detailed performance rating
07:18<lordnokon>i do i get a 100% rating on it?
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07:18<lordnokon>*how do i
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07:20<vargadanis>hello there
07:21<vargadanis>I have a problem with a station and dunno what causes the issue.. here is a picture of the station:
07:21<vargadanis>it looks to me that from the depo there should be a free way to the 3rd and 4th track of the station yet the trains wouldn't go
07:21<TWerkhoven>you mean the transparancy?
07:21<vargadanis>any tips why that could be?
07:21<TWerkhoven>or waiting for free path
07:21<vargadanis>waiting the free path
07:22<Rubidium>missing electrification
07:22<vargadanis>I use the path signals and one way path signals for this station
07:22<Rubidium>that's even clear from this image
07:22<vargadanis>thank you
07:23<vargadanis>after I start the game it seems that it defaults back to the non electric one
07:23<vargadanis>I'll pay attention when loading the game
07:23<vargadanis>thank you
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07:24<Rubidium>then set that setting for default railtype to "most used"
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07:25<vargadanis>that would be a smart thing to do, wouldn't it? So I cannot do that - smart solutions are not my thing in TTD :) hehe
07:26<@Alberth>you only need more practice :p
07:28<@Alberth>lordnokon: may be what you are looking for
07:28<@Alberth>(we have many lords here nowadays)
07:29<Rubidium>Lord Albert XVII ;)
07:32<lordnokon>i've read that before, but still sit on 0/100
07:32<lordnokon>even thou i have no vechile making negative income
07:34<@Alberth>so the lowest profit is too low
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07:42<lordnokon>al my income are about 100 000ponds
07:43<lordnokon>at a time
07:43<lordnokon>per train, ship, aircraft of verchile
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07:53<@Alberth>I don't know then. Perhaps you can post your save game at the forum and ask it there?
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08:01<lordnokon>fook i hate this country i stay in
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08:03<MNIM>lordnokon: have you taken a look at the finances window yet?
08:06<lordnokon>MNIM: yes i have, not strange there
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08:07<MNIM>do the numbers add up?
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08:17<Eddi|zuHause>lordnokon: min profit is the vehicle with the lowest income
08:19<lordnokon>Eddi|zuHause: per anual year?
08:19<Eddi|zuHause>yes, including vehicles stopped in depot, etc.
08:20<Eddi|zuHause>you can sort the vehicle list by income
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08:22<lordnokon>previous year?
08:24<lordnokon>EddizuHause: i just want to confirm, no vechile is suppose to have any negative income? and has to make at least a min of 10 000 for that fin year?
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08:25<Eddi|zuHause>we can't double check that unless you give us the savegame
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08:32<lordnokon>where can I upload my savegame to?
08:32<Eddi|zuHause>either the forums, or a filehoster of your choice
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08:33<Rubidium>what the ... a "how to get 32 bits graphics" tutorial completely filled with just changing some fracking settings that have absolutely nothing to dow ith 32bpp graphics
08:34<Rubidium>(e.g. changing the autoreplace money limit)
08:34<Rubidium>that's definitely helping those 32bpp graphics get going
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08:44<Elukka>Eddi|zuHause: in attempting to move towards rendering the intermediate views, a friend tried to render a box to fit the templates using an isometric projection at a 30 degree angle from the ground, and the sprite angles you've listed for the CETS templates
08:44<Elukka>it doesn't fit thouhg
08:44<Elukka>any idea what's up?
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08:44<ZirconiumX>Hello everyone
08:44*planetmaker guesses "the ceiling"
08:45<@Alberth>Elukka: 30 degrees is not right afaik
08:45<Elukka>that's what truebrain was using
08:45<Elukka>what is right?
08:45<Eddi|zuHause>the angle is arctan(1/2), so ca. 26.5°
08:46<Elukka>aha, thanks
08:51<TrueBrain>35 degrees Elukka
08:51<TrueBrain>did I say 30? Sorry, has to be 35 :P
08:51<Elukka>...35, not 26.5?
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08:51<TrueBrain>Orthographic, 35 degrees for the camera
08:51<TrueBrain>128x64 for resolution, aspect ratio 100/100 (as long as they are the same I guess)
08:52<TrueBrain>camera is at 0/-60/3 (not really relevant tbh)
08:52<TrueBrain>-30 degrees X, -225 degrees Z (y = 0)
08:52<TrueBrain>and then most likely another 90 degrees X rotation to see your object :)
08:53<TrueBrain>Elukka: basically, there are 3 places you need to set things to get it "just right"
08:53<TrueBrain>the Scene has to be in resolution of 128x64 (at least, I like that most)
08:54<TrueBrain>then I have an "Empty" entry, to bias the camera so I can do stuff easier. It is at 0,0,0 with rotation -30, 0, -225 (XYZ Euler)
08:54<TrueBrain>in that is the camera, at 0,-60,3, with rotation 90,0,0 (XYZ Euler)
08:54<TrueBrain>the camera itself is Orthographic, with 35 'scale'
08:55<TrueBrain>also make sure to set your clipping from 0.1 to some insane value .. 500 or so
08:55<TrueBrain>default value can be a bit tight :P
08:55<TrueBrain>that should be the total information to generate images correctly for OpenTTD from blender :)
08:57<TrueBrain>@calc 360 - 225
08:57<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: 135
08:57<TrueBrain>@calc 360 - 225 - 90
08:57<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: 45
08:57<TrueBrain>owh, lol, that is not 35 :P *fail*
08:58<TrueBrain>owh, Elukka, and then a tile is 12.5 <units> in both directions
08:58<Elukka>thanks, i'll try that out some time
08:59<Elukka>coincidentally, with the 35 degree angle i can already render correct sprites with qubicle \o/
08:59<TrueBrain>so I guess the camera is at 45 degrees from the Z, and 60 degrees from the X
08:59<Elukka>the lengths are wrong but that's fixed by cutting out some pixels in the middle
09:01<TrueBrain>PS: the above values work, as in, it is in my blender that generates a valid landscape set. There are a lot of other values on the wiki and I dunno where more; most of them are wrong (for blender at least) :P
09:02<TrueBrain>including the .blend file on the wiki; it generates images that are off by 2 pixels :(
09:03<TrueBrain>and for blender, dont forget to store the PNGs as RGBA :P (RGB is default)
09:11<TrueBrain>so I guess BaNaNaS is almost 3 years old now .. how nice :)
09:11<TrueBrain>42M downloads, hehe
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09:21<@Belugas>49 million downloads???
09:21<@Belugas>that's impressive!
09:22<TrueBrain>but yes
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09:49<@Belugas>sorry, my glasses are not what they used to be :)
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11:35<Aali>so thats what happened in Eschede..
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12:26<andythenorth>michi_cc: what was the blocker for yacd? was it frequently re-calculating the link graph for all cargo packets waiting on stations?
12:29<+michi_cc>There is no frequent recalculation of anything. What is comparatively very expensive is the inital route finding when each cargo packet is generated. Houses generally generate small packets often, which can also be clearly seen in
12:30<+michi_cc>Industries on the other hand generate big packets seldomly, so they are no problem at all.
12:30<andythenorth>the initial route finding is to establish the destination?
12:31<+michi_cc>The code needs to find out if there is a route to the destination at all, and if yes, which source station to place the packet at.
12:32<andythenorth>so you don't get packets on the network without any possibility of routing?
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12:33<+michi_cc>In the worst case this equals to a search of the complete link graph because otherwise you can't know if there really is no route.
12:34<andythenorth>and viable routes can't be cached? (I know you explained this before - sorry) :|
12:34<@Alberth>you are looking for the optimal path, or did you tune it to find any path?
12:34<andythenorth>just trying to figure out if we could do 'less' somehow
12:36<@Alberth>what if a house has a limited number of destinations?
12:36<+michi_cc>If you want to cache more or do less, you have to give up features. e.g. balancing over multiple links by waiting cargo or the different travel 'classes' (fast/cheap/etc).
12:37<+michi_cc>The proper solution to the problem is simply to not use A* but instead to use an algorithm similar to what is used for packet routing in real-world networks.
12:39<TrueBrain>michi_cc: what did you use to generate that graph? :)
12:39<+michi_cc>callgrind (from the valgrind suite) + kcachegrind
12:40<TrueBrain>its pretty
12:40<TrueBrain>one nasty bug: itis bad to add ... to cut off labels .. but okay :P
12:42<andythenorth>what if houses generated large packets infrequently?
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12:46<+michi_cc>andythenorth: Then you probably get the same problems like you always complain about with supplies :) It's going to use less CPU though.
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12:46<andythenorth>which problems do I complain about? (there are so many) :P
12:47<+michi_cc>Big packets mean you can't really distribute the among several destinations with low demand.
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12:53<andythenorth>michi_cc: how about 'PAX will only make n changes before refusing to travel' ?
12:53<andythenorth>then you stop evaluating if a route isn't found within n links
12:53<andythenorth>the maths is proabably still against that :P
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12:54<+michi_cc>Already implemented :) But you'd be surprised how far you can come in the graph even with a low limit.
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12:55<andythenorth>nah, not really :)
12:55<andythenorth>it's factorial on the number of links per node or something
12:55<andythenorth>my maths is poor :P
12:56<andythenorth>but I do really like YACD, and I miss it in my current game
12:56<CIA-6>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r23688 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp:
12:56<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Codechange: No need to check if a train needs servicing if we only extend a
12:56<CIA-6>OpenTTD: train's path without actually calling the pathfinder. The path extension will
12:56<CIA-6>OpenTTD: stop when hitting a junction tile, so it is impossible to miss a depot this way.
13:01<@Belugas>maybe one day, andythenorth, maybe one day...
13:05<encoded>how do i use TTD graphic set after i used openfx ?
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13:06<Eddi|zuHause>i think TTT had a limit of two transfers
13:06<Eddi|zuHause>or three
13:06<Eddi|zuHause>with three you already get really far
13:07<Rubidium>encoded: in the game options menu there's a dropdown which you can use to select the base "graphics"
13:08<encoded>yes but only openGfx shows up
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13:09<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: so they're using a DOS version from ca. 1993?
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13:10<Rubidium>encoded: then you don't have the original graphics in the right (see readme) location
13:11<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: DOS is much more stable and needs less resources than newer Windows :p
13:11<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: sure, until someone needs to maintain it :)
13:14<@Alberth>embedded software engineers are likely to be much happier without windows :p
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13:19<encoded>readme mentions some .grf files but in my TTD install the .grf files have diferent names
13:19<Rubidium>how are they called there?
13:20<encoded>tredit.grf trend.grf trhcom.grf trhcom2.grf
13:20<+glx>that's not TTD
13:20<encoded>what is it then?
13:21<Rubidium>Transport Tycoon; the original one, not the Deluxe one
13:21<encoded>ah, and here i was thinking i was playing TTD all these years
13:22<+glx>main difference I remember between TT and TTD is one way signals
13:23<+glx>TT doesn't have them
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13:25<encoded>so.... where do i get *cough* some original grfs *cough*
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13:26<@Alberth>from a CD
13:26<+glx>google may know
13:26<+glx>but you won't get any link here :)
13:27<@Alberth>oh, you can get a link too:
13:29<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: I'd consider 4 as the useful lower limit: bus - local train - intercity train - local train - bus
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13:31<andythenorth>does cargodist have the same CPU issue?
13:31<Rubidium>so then me going to Berlin by plane would already be (almost) impossible ;)
13:32<@Alberth>andythenorth: it does calculations in a separate thread
13:32<encoded>hey look i think i found it
13:33<Rubidium>bus - local train - ic - aircraft - crappy bus (yay TXL) - local train
13:33<+michi_cc>andythenorth: cargodist isn't really fast, but thanks to the design that has no fixed destination for each packet, the most expensive part of the calculations can be moved to a different thread.
13:33<andythenorth>for PAX, would it be more appropriate to take that approach?
13:33<+michi_cc>Rubidium: YACD default is 5, so: works :)
13:34<+michi_cc>andythenorth: In my personal opinion: no.
13:34*andythenorth really likes the demand in YACD
13:34<+michi_cc>Where's the challenge if pax/cargo only goes where you let your trains run?
13:34<Rubidium>train is more relaxed though.. local train - ic, or morning bike ride - ic
13:35<andythenorth>michi_cc: agreed - for cargo
13:35<andythenorth>I'm 50:50 on which is better for pax
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13:39<encoded>how do i reset openttd settings?
13:43*Belugas would erase the config file
13:43<@Belugas>AFTER CLOSING The program...
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: translators * r23689 /trunk/src/lang/ (norwegian_bokmal.txt simplified_chinese.txt swedish.txt):
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: simplified_chinese - 23 changes by chenwt0315
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: norwegian_bokmal - 236 changes by mantaray
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: swedish - 9 changes by tobjork
13:50<@Alberth>buy a new computer
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13:53<@Belugas>and give me the old one!!
13:54<encoded>im having problems with the music pack
13:54<encoded>only NoMusic shows up now
13:55<+glx>get openmsx or the original music files
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13:57<encoded>i already put original files in
13:57<encoded>and tried to download openmsx from the game
13:57<encoded>neighter appear
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14:09<encoded>ok i used installer to fix issue
14:09<encoded>now copying over nightly
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14:23<andythenorth>including yacd for non-pax cargo only is not really viable?
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14:29<andythenorth>michi_cc: (apologies for questions) - is the link graph constructed by evaluating orders of current vehicles, or some other method?
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15:00<+michi_cc>andythenorth: The graph is (more or less) identical to the order graph.
15:02<andythenorth>the order graph doesn't change very often (relatively)?
15:03<+michi_cc>The graph itself changes only if (implicit) orders change, but the cost of each link changes basically each tick.
15:04<andythenorth>so in principle whether node A is connected to node X could be cached in a (massive) lookup table?
15:04<andythenorth>but not the actual route
15:04<@Alberth>hmm, does it make sense to do such calculations then? By the time the cargo reaches the link, the cost is changed anyway
15:05<+michi_cc><michi_cc> The proper solution to the problem is simply to not use A* but instead to use an algorithm similar to what is used for packet routing in real-world networks.
15:06<andythenorth>no cheating :P
15:06<+michi_cc>Packet routing is a hard™ problem though.
15:07<@Alberth>andythenorth: not sure it counts as cheating. Finding the optimal route for each and every packet is big overkill, parcel delivery companies don't do that either
15:08<andythenorth>I understood that the initial problem was simply 'can a packet be generated to destination x'
15:08<andythenorth>which means checking if nearby stations are connected to x...
15:09<+michi_cc>The initial problem is: can a packet be generated to destination X, and if yes, which nearby station should it be delivered to.
15:09<andythenorth>so a lookup table solves the first, but tells nothing of use for the second
15:09<+michi_cc>Which means that you need some kind of cost for each option.
15:11<andythenorth>sounds like packet routing :P
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15:14*andythenorth wonders how stable links are in a typical game
15:16<+michi_cc>Quite stable if a typical game has no conditional orders and goto orders are preferably non-stop.
15:17*andythenorth tries to devise some horrible system of storing weightings at each node
15:18<andythenorth>I should do trucks
15:18<andythenorth>maths - i'm way out of my depth :P
15:19<andythenorth>give the first node a starting score of -255, the packet tries to get to any node with a higher score
15:19<andythenorth>scores are initially estimated, then updated when cargo packets arrive at destination
15:19<andythenorth>dunno what problem that is solving
15:20<andythenorth>instead: BANDIT trucks may refit to n trailers (using subtypes). Is there any harm in unifying the subtype across vehicles?
15:20<andythenorth>it may cause undesirable results in some cases
15:21<andythenorth>e.g. a truck with 3x9t trailers might be upgraded to 3x30t trailers
15:21<andythenorth>if there are say...20 trucks in the group, you suddenly have way too much capacity on that route :P
15:21<andythenorth>by a factor of...lots
15:25<+michi_cc>Some incremental routing like is probably the way to go.
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15:30<andythenorth>michi_cc: it would be nice if we could run the whole simulation for, say, 6 months, on ffwd before generating each packet :P
15:31<andythenorth>but trying to know the future is definitely cheating
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15:32<andythenorth>it's nice how the ants optimise for shorter links simply because they can travel them faster
15:32<andythenorth>thereby dropping more pheromone on that link
15:32<TrueBrain>ugh, dont talk about Ant Optimizations :P Too many nightmares :P
15:33<+michi_cc>I wasn't really thinking about ant behaviour, but more what is described at the section "How MUTE Routes Messages"
15:34<andythenorth>the routing is not dissimilar to the score idea I had
15:34<andythenorth>both node A and node X are known
15:35<andythenorth>node X starts with score 0 and assigns 1 to all connecting to nodes. They then assign 2 to all their connected nodes that don't already have a score etc.
15:35<andythenorth>a limit is applied
15:36<andythenorth>node A does same, but starting at 255 and scoring upwards
15:36<andythenorth>packets then route to any node with score > than current cnode
15:37<andythenorth>it's probably horribly inefficient computationally
15:37*andythenorth wrote a lot of flash games with dumb solutions in that worked
15:37<TrueBrain>you are kinda describing Dijkstra :P
15:37<andythenorth>I'm hardly original :)
15:37<TrueBrain>just a few years late to come up with it :P
15:38<andythenorth>Dijkstra is slower than A*?
15:38<TrueBrain>lol; no
15:38<Aali>what if you just gave the packet to a random station, if that packet gets delivered, increase the likelyhood of that station getting another packet with that destination?
15:38<Eddi|zuHause>A* is a specialized Dijkstra
15:38<TrueBrain>what Eddi|zuHause says :P
15:39<andythenorth>Aali: you end up with unpleasant side effect of cargo hanging around on stations, undelivered :)
15:39<Aali>yeah there is that
15:39<Aali>maybe the industry could "reallocate" it after a while
15:40<TrueBrain>easy solution for YACD btw: just pick a random town to go to :p Connected or not :D
15:41<TrueBrain>forcing full networks FTW :D
15:41<TrueBrain>(mind you: town, not station)
15:41<Aali>isn't there a patch like that already?
15:43*andythenorth ponders routing cargo based on tiles, not stations
15:43<andythenorth>with 8x8 tilegroups
15:43<andythenorth>and the ability to wormhole cargo between stations :P
15:43<andythenorth>also solves part of infrastructure sharing ;)
15:50<TrueBrain>michi_cc: how does YACD determ the from/to atm? Or can you point me to where that is calculated? (just curious)
15:53<+michi_cc> plus the three (or so) previous commits are were the destination of each packet is chosen, and plus the ~10 commits before for the demand links between towns/industries.
15:54<+michi_cc>Commit overview:
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16:00<TrueBrain>lol; you really went all out feature wise, didn't you? :D
16:05<+michi_cc>The most important part of a cargo *destinations* patch is the destinations part because that is what directly defines game play.
16:09<TrueBrain>so if I read this right, a house generates a cargo to a town, depending on weight etc, and after that it checks if there is a route towards that destination?
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16:19<TrueBrain>not ever really bothered with cargodest or cargodist patches, I have to say: not what I expected (at all), but much better / full / more gameplay changing :)
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16:22<+michi_cc>Yes, when a cargo packet is generated, a destination from the list of possible destinations of the source town/industry is chosen. For a town destination a 4x4 tile square as the destination tile is then chosen by weighted random. After that, the code checks if a connection between the source and the destinations exists and is inside the given limits (transfers etc.) and if yes, moves the packet to a station. If no, the packet is dropped.
16:22<TrueBrain>I am mostly impressed you even wrote auto transfer (if I read it correct, of course)
16:23<+michi_cc>Auto-transfer is quite trivial if you've already have the link graph infrastructure.
16:23<+michi_cc>And frankly, cargod?st without auto-transfers is quite useless.
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16:24<TrueBrain>I btw wonder, if I have a station with trains and planes, which connect both to another station (which happens to be the dest for all), will they distribute theirself over those 2, or will they only take train/plane (because of the penalties)?
16:25<+michi_cc>Depends :)
16:26<TrueBrain>how I read the code, it picks either one, and the other one will leave empty
16:26<TrueBrain>but patch over patch over patch, hard to get a total picture :D
16:27<+michi_cc>For a single packet: yes. But there are pathfinder penalties e.g. for cargo amount waiting on a specific link or time since the last vehicle. So the best route can change after each cargo packet is routed.
16:27<TrueBrain>ah; smart solution
16:27<+michi_cc>Additionally, cargo packets have different "personalities", so some will prefer a fast connection and others an especially cheap connection.
16:28<TrueBrain>yeah, that is a really nice touch btw :)
16:28<TrueBrain>its funny; because you went all out on this, and wanted so much, you also have to pay by having to resolve a full graph :D
16:29<+michi_cc>The personalities are currently assign randomly, but you could coupled them e.g. with source house is office (accepts goods) or residential.
16:30<TrueBrain>I once joked about implemented OSPF in OpenTTD. You are not far off :P
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16:30<TrueBrain>and now I am tempted to suggest BGP :D
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16:32<+michi_cc>The problem with something like BGP is that each node (== station) needs a full routing table to every other station.
16:32<andythenorth><TrueBrain> much better / full / more gameplay changing
16:32<andythenorth>it really is ^ :)
16:32<TrueBrain>andythenorth: I am seriously surprised. I always expected YACD to be simple, but doing too much calculations. It is not simple. Not by far :P
16:32<andythenorth>it's awesome
16:32<TrueBrain>michi_cc: yup :)
16:32<andythenorth>it's full featured and highly polished
16:33<andythenorth>it's just a shame that it can't be shipped :(
16:33<TrueBrain>andythenorth: well, I found code-wise errors, but that is not relevant ;)
16:33<andythenorth>there are still oddities :)
16:34<+michi_cc>My local HD has a slightly more advanced state than the publicly available YACD 2.3.
16:34<andythenorth>does it build with current trunk?
16:34<TrueBrain>michi_cc: earlier this evening, when I just read you and andythenorth talking about it, I was just wondering: why not make a full matrix for all stations
16:34<TrueBrain>a relative big map will have, what, 500 stations?
16:34<andythenorth>what does that entail?
16:34<+michi_cc>It might if you fix all the save/load version conflicts.
16:34<andythenorth>it it an n dimensional lookup table?
16:34<TrueBrain>but then I realised that people tend to build LOTS of bus stations :(
16:35<andythenorth>with YACD you build a lot MORE bus stations :P
16:35<andythenorth>I think we should cheat and give PAX legs
16:35<TrueBrain>andythenorth: they have
16:35<andythenorth>having to build bus routes covering every tile in every connected town is not that much fun by the second or third game
16:35<TrueBrain>7 houses? :)
16:35<TrueBrain>then they are tired :P
16:35<andythenorth>I'll walk 45 mins rather than get a bus
16:35<TrueBrain>houses = tiles :P
16:35<andythenorth>buses suck
16:36<TrueBrain>haha; but that is not the idea of a TRANSPORT game :P
16:36<andythenorth>some station grfs have car parks
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16:36<+michi_cc>andythenorth: Modify station catchment :)
16:36<TrueBrain>I wish station catchment was not a square
16:36<TrueBrain>that is in my top 10 of wanted features :(
16:36<+michi_cc>Code it :)
16:36<TrueBrain>so many things I want to code
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16:37<andythenorth>code a code generator :P
16:37<TrueBrain>I still want to write a quad-tree to improve TileClosestByTown
16:37<TrueBrain>just to see if it does improve
16:37<TrueBrain>I want to write city borders
16:37<TrueBrain>so you can see how big a city is
16:37<TrueBrain>a view to see catchment area
16:37<andythenorth>cargo specific catchment areas?
16:37<TrueBrain>underground ..
16:37<TrueBrain>signals on bridges :P
16:37<TrueBrain>omg, I have to stop talking now
16:38<SpComb>yes, underground!
16:38<andythenorth>meh to underground
16:38*SpComb photoshops some .png sprites and declares it done
16:38<TrueBrain>michi_cc: if you forget about the '5 leg' constraint, you can make your FindRoute thingy much faster btw
16:38<+michi_cc>I guess (alread in trunk) can be used as an almost-quad-tree.
16:38<TrueBrain>but I guess you really want that feature (mostly as it is really nice)
16:39*Rubidium wonders where "a GUI defined by a game script" comes ;)
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16:39<TrueBrain>Rubidium: as you might have noticed, I havent written a single line of new code since commit :P
16:40<TrueBrain>bit burned out by all the lobbying and politics tbh :)
16:40<Rubidium>yeah, I noticed ;)
16:40<andythenorth>there's politics :o
16:40<TrueBrain>you should read the dev-channel from time to time ..
16:40<Rubidium>I don't blame you either
16:41<TrueBrain>Rubidium: well, it annoys me tbh, as I really want that feature :)
16:41<Rubidium>that's also somewhat why I asked where it is on the "top 10" list
16:41<TrueBrain>but I enjoy blender too much :D
16:41*andythenorth probably isn't allowed in the dev channel :D
16:42<TrueBrain>Rubidium: fair question; and I will write it soon (tm). I also have a few GS related issues to fix :)
16:42<TrueBrain>michi_cc: that is "almost" a quad-tree yeah :p It misses children I guess :)
16:43<TrueBrain>it is the child, so that is 50% of the work? :)
16:44<+michi_cc>But an almost-quad-tree might be already good enough if you store the town in all squares that are single-owned and fall back to the old search for multi-owned tiles.
16:45<TrueBrain>that I don't follow, sorry?
16:45<encoded>is there some way to make the map generator not put 5 factories near each other
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16:46<Rubidium>disable multiple industries in a town?
16:46<encoded>wheres that setting?
16:46<Rubidium>somewhere in the advanced settings
16:48<andythenorth>encoded: use an industry newgrf :P
16:48<encoded>i only see allow multiple industries of the same type
16:48<+michi_cc>TrueBrain: Make an map overlay that for each N-by-N square either stores the town or a special value if more than one town has influence over the tiles in the square.
16:48<TrueBrain>michi_cc: and that overlay is missing :P
16:49<TrueBrain>either in a quad-tree or another solution, doesn't really matter :)
16:49<encoded>and that is off
16:49<TrueBrain>but TileMatrix alone is not sufficient ;)
16:49<TrueBrain>but I guess you are right ;)
16:49<TrueBrain>will be a heavy CPU vs memory trade-of
16:50<+michi_cc>No, but as town center tiles rarely change, calculating and keeping that map up-to-date isn't that big a challenge.
16:51<+michi_cc>Depends on how big squares you choose. We're talking about 0.5MB for 4x4 squares.
16:51<+michi_cc>for a 2048x2048 map.
16:51<TrueBrain>so you suggest putting the vehicle hash on top of TileMatrix ;)
16:51<TrueBrain>(but for towns :P)
16:52<TrueBrain>so many fun things to try! :P
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16:55<TrueBrain>michi_cc: btw, just thinking out loud tbh, would a solution for your YACD be if you make 'regions' in the route links. What I mean is:
16:55<TrueBrain>if you consider all stations in / near a town to be a single route ina bigger graph
16:55<TrueBrain>that graph will be at most <townsize> big, so a matrix would be <townsize>^2 big, at most
16:55<TrueBrain>within a town you can easily calculate a route on the fly each time
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16:56<TrueBrain>that should (in theory) recude the CPU load by a huge factor (at the expense of memory, of course)
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16:57<encoded>what does the Variety Distribution parameter in New Game Dialog do?
16:57<+michi_cc>As long as we are still limited by single-core performance and measure our memory use in MB, the proper choice is always memory over CPU.
16:57<TrueBrain>well, then you can just make a <station-count>^2 matrix :P
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16:59<Aali>encoded: it distributes variety :)
16:59<Aali>low setting means uniform landscape (macro level), high setting means varied landscape
16:59<TrueBrain>michi_cc: btw, single core or not, 50% CPU to a single function is never a good thing I guess :D
17:00<TrueBrain>I also guess this would be a typical thing that can be threaded; as a path taken does not influence the path another packet will take (in other words: the pathfinding is fully read-only)
17:00<@Belugas>HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYONE. I won't be back until i'llbe back :)
17:01<TrueBrain>o/ Belugas
17:02<TrueBrain>anyway, tnx for explaining how YACD works michi_cc :) At least I now understand what you are talking about when it comes to the issues of it :D
17:03<Rubidium>Belugas: but... you're 12 hours early ;)
17:03<Rubidium>in any case, have fun
17:03<@Terkhen>Belugas: enjoy :)
17:04<andythenorth>TrueBrain: that was my suggestion! :P (grouping regions) :P
17:04<+michi_cc>TrueBrain: But a packet moved to a station affects the cost of the link, so it does influence all later route choices. And cargo generation and vehicle unloading is fully integrated into the tile loop/vehicle tick loop.
17:04<andythenorth>only yours is more...better
17:04<andythenorth>but still...I demand my compsci degree :P
17:04<encoded>where is Multiple industries per town option??
17:06<@Terkhen>economy -> towns IIRC
17:06<andythenorth>or economy -> industries
17:08<TrueBrain>michi_cc: hehe; like I said: you went all out, and now you are in trouble :D:D (it is a positive thing btw, let that be clear :))
17:08<andythenorth>and also yacd is highly playable - on my laptop at least
17:08<andythenorth>until it flattens the batter anyway :P
17:09<andythenorth>also it's a little...warm
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17:11<TrueBrain>ugh; I have a flu, and it is annoying. when you are in bed, you start to cough. when you are sitting up your head hurts. MAKE UP YOUR MIND BODY! Ffs ...
17:11<TrueBrain>WTS: 1 body
17:11<TrueBrain>slightly used
17:12<andythenorth>flu is lame
17:13<Rubidium>too bad flu is ambiguous and usually means the lesser undiagnosed variant
17:14<TrueBrain>Rubidium: yeah, it is most likely just a cold. But you can never be sure at this stage :P
17:15<andythenorth>flu makes you hallucinate
17:15<andythenorth>I have had it maybe 3 times in my life
17:15<TrueBrain>it _can_ make you hallucinate maybe :P
17:15<TrueBrain>it is not part of the diagonise :P
17:16<andythenorth>flu makes _me_ hallucinate. ymmv
17:16<Rubidium>well... the medicin I got for my (in)flu(enza) is known to make people hallicunate and jump of the roof of tall buildings (so when I got it I was also more or less on suicide watch)
17:17<TrueBrain>that is one hell of a flu :P
17:17<TrueBrain>it makes you want to fly
17:17<TrueBrain>ironic, I guess
17:18<andythenorth>Rubidium: tamiflu?
17:18<Rubidium>andythenorth: yep
17:18<andythenorth>the side effects are quite rare ;)
17:18<andythenorth>I just reading about it
17:19<andythenorth>meanwhile...flu tends to cause delirium, and hallucinations can be part of that, but not necessarily
17:19<TrueBrain>also rare for children who got injected with the "mexikaanse griep" (what is the english?) to get a neurological disfunction .. yet more than a few got it :(
17:19<andythenorth>it's quite interesting wiki page
17:20<andythenorth>"In the latter state, a person may be awake and immediately aware and responsive to many stimuli, and capable of coordinated movements, but unable to perform any meaningful mental processing task at all."
17:20<andythenorth>^ this is a typical morning for me :P
17:20<Rubidium>TrueBrain: I'm always wondering who "studied" that
17:20<TrueBrain>isnt it for everyone andythenorth? :D
17:20<TrueBrain>Rubidium: studied what?
17:20<Rubidium>that the vaccin causes neurological problems
17:21<TrueBrain>several countries, and the supplier of the vaccin admitted it
17:21<TrueBrain>and I doubt a supplier does that when it is not set in stone :P
17:21<andythenorth>last time I had actual flu, my house was being rebuilt. I remember climbing out of a window onto scaffolding to decide some building issues with the builders. This was fun - I was having time skips at that point (like watching slow video)
17:22<TrueBrain>also mostly means they already knew
17:22<Rubidium>TrueBrain: the list of things you could get from medicine is more a list of things that people got during the trials than actually being certain it was caused by that
17:22<TrueBrain>Rubidium: I guessin this case the N got so huge, it is pretty clear :D
17:24<TrueBrain>I am mostly very ciritcal when it comes to statistics, as I know how easy you can manipulate them; but in this case I tend to go with them :P
17:24<Rubidium>but how do you study mental issues? You generally don't know whether the problem already existed before
17:24<TrueBrain>I guess it accelerated the effect, sure
17:24<andythenorth>ho. one cause of delirium is lack of sleep
17:24<andythenorth>I am familiar with this
17:24<Rubidium>TrueBrain: or... people started looking for it
17:25<TrueBrain>but if a "large" portion of a huge group gets a certain condition after they all have been injected with something
17:25<Rubidium>for example, now many many more people have dyslexia
17:25<TrueBrain>Rubidium: everyone on earth has either dyslexia or discalculi
17:25<TrueBrain>(by strict definition)
17:26<TrueBrain>the only clause avoiding that is: and is limited in his ability because of it
17:26<TrueBrain>which goes for most diagnoses
17:26<TrueBrain>(ADHD, ...)
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17:28<Rubidium>yeah, kids get ADHD from the TV
17:28<TrueBrain>I can imagine with sponsbob
17:28<TrueBrain>I even turn totally ADHD over it
17:28<TrueBrain>who ever thought it would be educational to show a hyper-active thingy on television, and promote it as good behavoir, should be shot :P
17:28<Rubidium>(or is it the parents seeing all those busy kids in TV programs saying they've got ADHD, so their kid has it as well)
17:29<TrueBrain>Rubidium: like said, with many conditions it goes: you don't have it until others have negative effects from it
17:29<Rubidium>it's (IMO) by a large part cause by upbringing
17:29<TrueBrain>if the latter holds, many diagonses start to hold :P
17:31<TrueBrain>well, after spending 2 minutes with a "claimed" ADD person and a real ADD person, you know who is the "claimed" :P
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17:32<TrueBrain>Rubidium: I guess what we are both saying is: the world is doomed if you believe everyone out there :D
17:33<TrueBrain>want to hear another 'fun' story .. got a letter from my ISP yesterday
17:34<TrueBrain>reading on
17:34<TrueBrain>2 mbps connections become 10 mbps
17:34<TrueBrain>how nice
17:34<TrueBrain>20 mbps connections will be 25 mbps, for N euro extra
17:34<TrueBrain>my "university" connection?
17:34<TrueBrain>will become a 10 mbps
17:34<TrueBrain>it is a 100 mbps
17:34<TrueBrain>HOW IS THAT FASTER?!
17:34<TrueBrain>and they dropped that in 2 lines in the middle of a letter
17:35<TrueBrain>I am still upset because of it :(
17:35<andythenorth>have a nap
17:36<andythenorth>apparently lack of sleep causes excessive emotional response to events :)
17:36<Rubidium>TrueBrain: maybe it improves the ping times due to less traffic on the line?
17:36<TrueBrain>then I always have a lack of sleep :P
17:36<TrueBrain>Rubidium: hahaha :D
17:36<Rubidium>and that makes the internet *faster*
17:36<TrueBrain>I am pretty sure they can no longer find a way to forward the EAPOL packets tbh :P
17:37<TrueBrain>(which is the authentication method for all university networks in the netherlands these days I believe
17:37<Rubidium>what they told you is that the throughput will be lowered ;)
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17:37<andythenorth>BT broadband "the most reliable wireless in the uk"
17:37<Rubidium>or that's how they'll spin it if it ever gets to court
17:37<andythenorth>yeah right
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17:38<andythenorth>and you can't even swap the stupid crappy wifi router out for a non-BT one :/
17:38<Rubidium>andythenorth: makes me wonder how unreliable the other internet is in the UK ;)
17:38<TrueBrain>Rubidium: I just wonder why they didn't offer me free-for-live upgrade to 25mbps, to compensate
17:38<TrueBrain>that would have been fair
17:38<andythenorth>they claim 'most reliable wireless'
17:38<andythenorth>which is surely lies, as each house varies
17:38<Rubidium>TrueBrain: maybe the university stopped subsidizing?
17:38<TrueBrain>"most reliable" is very vague andythenorth ;)
17:38<TrueBrain>Rubidium: doubtful; but something to call about in the new year :P
17:40<Rubidium>other news: in Enschede on the campus they're working on upgrading the room connections to 1 Gbps ;)
17:40<TrueBrain>nice ... impressive even
17:40<Rubidium>too bad the connection on my work just sucks massively
17:44<TrueBrain>well, clearly Leiden no longer cares enough about its students to supply them with real internet connectivity to university resources :P
17:44<TrueBrain>guess I need to setup a bouncer, to access those sites restricted to university IPs :P
17:45<Rubidium>pff... how many of those are there? ;)
17:45<TrueBrain>many :)
17:45<TrueBrain>papers, journals, ...
17:45<Rubidium>I've maybe needed it, on average, one a year
17:45<TrueBrain>I use it a bit more :)
17:45<TrueBrain>just annoyed; not un-overcomable :P (is that english?)
17:46<Rubidium>though most of the time I was at the uni doing that stuff so I didn't notice
17:46<Rubidium>in the other cases I just opened the VPN connection and it worked
17:46<TrueBrain>we don't have a 'VPN' as such
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17:47<TrueBrain>every department has its own method ...
17:47<TrueBrain>annoying :P
17:47<Jogio>hi everybody
17:47<Rubidium>maybe it's that the student network in E'de is run by students that makes it more useably for students?
17:47<Elukka>Eddi|zuHause: did the bavarians have different colors for different coach classes too?
17:47<TrueBrain>Rubidium: for sure that makes a huge difference :)
17:48<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: haven't researched that yet
17:49<Elukka>well, i'll get the green one done first
17:49<Rubidium>hi Jogio
17:49<Elukka>i noticed the prussians at some point moved to a unified green color scheme
17:50<Jogio>I had crashed openttd just before when I wanted to read the readme of a newGRF
17:50<Jogio>is this bug known already?
17:51<Rubidium>not to me; which NewGRF did you want to read the readme from? What operating system are you using?
17:51<Jogio>wait I will copy a error message
17:51<TrueBrain>which OpenTTD version?
17:51<Jogio>Error: Assertion failed at line 1306 of /bamboo/src/widget.cpp: given_width >= this->smallest_x && given_height >= this->smallest_y
17:51<Jogio>I have ubuntu lucid lynx
17:51<Jogio>and it happens in 1.2.0 RC 1
17:52<Jogio>but only when you see the newgrfs of a multiplayer game
17:52<TrueBrain>beta1 I hope :D
17:52<Jogio>ahh maybe :-)
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17:54<Rubidium>Jogio: what is the name of the NewGRF you opened the readme for (which server)?
17:55<Jogio>the openttdcoopserver maybe
17:56<Jogio>I think it happens to all newgrfs
17:56<Jogio>and I just tested that it crashed to when i click on license
17:57<kais58> warning: attempt to free a non-heap object 'ByteBlob::hdrEmpty' <- that normal on building 1.1.3?
17:58<Rubidium>kais58: yes :(
17:58<Rubidium>kais58: if you're interested why, read the comments near the line that causes the warning
17:59<kais58>I just saw it when building it, just checking, still the same on nightlies?
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17:59<Rubidium>kais58: yes-ish; you will only see it when assertions are disabled
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18:00<Rubidium>for releases the assertions are disabled, for nightlies, betas and release candidates they are enabled
18:00<Rubidium>(by default)
18:00<kais58>so it's still an issue then is what I was asking ;)
18:01<andythenorth>good night
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18:01<Rubidium>kais58: yes, it is an issue... but not in OpenTTD
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18:01<TrueBrain>Jogio: any specific grf? Or just a random one?
18:01<kais58>I'll go read the source then
18:02<Jogio>a random one
18:02<Rubidium>Jogio: which base graphics set are you using; if OpenGFX, which version?
18:03<Jogio>but the strange is that all works when i click on newGRF settings in main menu
18:03<TrueBrain>is the random one always the same? :)
18:04<TrueBrain>just name one which you know crashes :)
18:05<Rubidium>I've randomly tried half a dozen of #openttdcoop's server but none triggered the error
18:05<Jogio>ok try CHIPS
18:05<Jogio>hmm maybe its only under ubuntu
18:06<Jogio>chips on openttdcoop welcome server
18:06<TrueBrain>can't reproduce it either
18:06<Rubidium>Jogio: do you use 64 bits or 32 bits?
18:06<Jogio>32 bits
18:08<Jogio>i now use openttd 1.2.0-beta1-linux generic-i686
18:08<kais58>oh, ok, it's just a false warning by GCC
18:09<Jogio>i try to reboot but I don't think it changes something
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18:10*Rubidium is off for dreams ;)
18:10<TrueBrain>sleep well Rubidium
18:11<appe_>how did i change my nick in multiplayer?
18:11<@Terkhen>good night
18:11<TrueBrain>night Terkhen
18:11<TrueBrain>appe_: console, "name <newname>"
18:11<TrueBrain>or quit, and change it in the GUI :P
18:11<TrueBrain>or was it "nick <newname>"
18:11<TrueBrain>dunno :P
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18:14<Jogio>hi again
18:14<Jogio>any ideas about my bug?
18:15<TrueBrain>and I guess the only way to find out what goes wrong, is if you can attach a debugger (gdb)
18:15<TrueBrain>not sure if you know how that works
18:15<@Yexo>heh, I love people making suggestions about things we already implemented :p
18:15<TrueBrain>otherwise, make a bug report :)
18:15<TrueBrain>Yexo: and make it sound like NOBODY EVER thought about it :P
18:15<@Yexo>yes, of course :)
18:15<@Yexo>well, nobody did post it as suggestion on the forum :p
18:16<Jogio>i can compile but I never debugged something
18:17<TrueBrain>well, as long we can't reproduce it, you are out of luck sadly
18:17<@Yexo>Jogio: can you reproduce the issue yourself?
18:17<Jogio>yes it happens always
18:18<TrueBrain>which language btw Jogio?
18:18<TrueBrain>meh; a crash.log would be useful :D Has all those details
18:18<Jogio>that's no problem
18:19<@Yexo>Jogio: if you can compile yourself, configure with "./configure --enable-debug=3", after that "make" and then start the resulting binary in gdb
18:19<TrueBrain>ah, I can reproduce it :)
18:19<TrueBrain>happens in German, not in english
18:19<Jogio>ah nice
18:19<Jogio>i try in english too
18:20<@Yexo>ah, yes
18:21<Jogio>in english it works on my computer :-)
18:22<TrueBrain>CheckForMissingGlyphs causes a recalculation of the windows width, which fails somehow ;)
18:22<Jogio>maybe the german text is longer then the english or something
18:23<TrueBrain>given the error, I expect the rerverse ;) But lets find out ..
18:24<@Yexo>this->smallest_x = 4294967281; (=-15 if it was int)
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18:25<TrueBrain>funny :D
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18:29<Jogio>good night and thank you for your quick help :-)
18:29-!-Jogio [] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
18:29<TrueBrain>I wonder if he understands he helped us finding a bug :P
18:29<@Yexo>probably not
18:30<@Yexo>but for me it's time to sleep, good night
18:30<TrueBrain>night Yexo
18:33<TrueBrain>FS#4926, to make sure we don't forget :)
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18:39<kais58>are the source file md5's listed somewhere?
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18:42<kais58>for older releases that is, I can see the current ones
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19:09<saua>Do I really need to have X-installed for be able to use the dedicated server?
19:10<+glx>no, but you must compile yourself in this case
19:13<saua>i tried that, still needed a graphics set so I figured it also needed X?
19:13<+glx>graphics set is a different thing
19:13<+glx>they contain more than graphics
19:14<saua>I see
19:14<@planetmaker>saua: the graphics sets contain also height maps needed for the terrain generator
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---Logclosed Sat Dec 31 00:00:37 2011