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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-01-01

---Logopened Sun Jan 01 00:00:38 2012
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03:42<@Terkhen>good morning
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03:42<@Terkhen>and happy new year :P
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03:49<andythenorth>bueno ano
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04:00<@Terkhen>feliz año nuevo andythenorth
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04:00<@Terkhen>that word means... something else :P
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04:02<andythenorth>he
04:02*andythenorth is lacking on accents and such :)
04:03<@Terkhen>:D
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04:04<andythenorth>hmm
04:04<andythenorth>time for FIRS 0.7.1 ?
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04:11<Afdal>Hello
04:11<Afdal>I have a quick question if anyone can answer it
04:11<Afdal>Should be easy enough
04:11<Afdal>In regards to cargo "transported" when calculating an industry's probability of growing in a month
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04:12<Afdal>Does it matter if the cargo actually reaches a destination, or does it only need to be on a vehicle?
04:12<Afdal>Directly correlating with station rating, that is
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04:19<andythenorth>only needs pickup
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04:19<andythenorth>you can cheat...
04:19<Afdal>Okay, thought so
04:20<Afdal>It just seems like my industries grow more when I transport small amounts frequentlyover short distances for some reason
04:20<Afdal>thanks
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04:21<Afdal>So if I want my industries to grow optimally, do I just have to make sure that their station ratings never go below 80%?
04:22<Afdal>On Smooth economy setting, that is
04:26<@Terkhen>http://wiki.openttd.org/Game_mechanics#Production_change
04:27<Afdal>Yeah, I've read that
04:27<Afdal>The thing about it when that says "tranported" though
04:28<Afdal>Is it doesn't necessarily mean cargo transported
04:28<Afdal>The transport percentage depends on station rating which if in influence by a few more factors than simply cargo transport
04:28<Afdal>which is influence*
04:28<Afdal>d
04:29<Afdal>Just wanted to make sure
04:30<@Terkhen>it just needs cargo to be taken away, it does not need to reach a destination
04:30<Afdal>Okay, thanks
04:31<Afdal>It doesn't even need to me moved, right?
04:31<@Terkhen>you could for example build two truck stations two tiles apart, use a few trucks to transfer cargo to the second station and the primary industry would grow
04:31<Afdal>Just picked up by something
04:31<@Terkhen>to my knowledge yes, honestly I have never looked at this in such detail :)
04:31<Afdal>Okay, good then
04:32<Afdal>I was making small industry growing stations at long-distance stations
04:32<Afdal>industry-growing networks
04:32<Afdal>but I guess that isn't necessary
04:32<@Terkhen>distance does not matter, just cargo being picked up
04:32<Afdal>Okay, thanks
04:33<Afdal>well it wasn't so much the distance with that
04:33<Afdal>I just wanted something to continually pick up and drop off cargo
04:33<Afdal>but I see that isn't necessary
04:33<@Terkhen>that helps for keeping the rating up
04:33<@Terkhen>which in turn is what determines if production grows
04:34<Afdal>But you can do the same by just making sure the station
04:34<Afdal>always has trains loading in it
04:34<@Terkhen>yes
04:34<Afdal>without the extra network*
04:34<Afdal>All right, great then
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04:41<andythenorth>Afdal: 'transported' in the industry window means 'cargo was moved to a station'
04:41<andythenorth>the amount moved to station depends on station rating(s)
04:41<Afdal>ahhhh
04:41<Afdal>Thanks, that makes much more sense
04:42<andythenorth>so if there is an industry with 2,000t production, and the nearby station(s) have ratings of 10%, only 200t will be made availalble at the station(s)
04:42<andythenorth>and tactics for boosting ratings is as described in the wiki page linked above: pickup, age of vehicle, speed of vehicle, statue etc
04:43<andythenorth>if you want to cheat, you can use a piglet: http://home.c2i.net/cecilieTT/misctric.htm#pyglet
04:43<andythenorth>the most effective piglet is probably a ship as ships boost station ratings for longer
04:43<andythenorth>but cheating - meh ;)
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04:44<andythenorth>if station ratings are annoying you, latest FIRS industry grf has an option to improve how they work
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04:53<Afdal>So I just realized every farm station should have a minimum of three slots
04:53<Afdal>because of this
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04:54<Afdal>In order to be sure you've always got a train for each type of cargo loading at the station
04:54<@Alberth>you can combine wagons of different cargoes in one train
04:54<Afdal>you could always split the station into two, one for grain and another for livestock, but that makes things more complicated with orders
04:55<Afdal>Yeah but that makes it difficult to regulate when you don't split up cargo types
04:55<Afdal>when you're using the full load order
04:55<@Alberth>you can do a full load of one cargo, the other one will be as full as there is cargo
04:55<Afdal>yeah
04:56<Afdal>It's easier to just clone trains when one production increases
04:56<@Alberth>I once built a station with 1 train like that to transport both cargoes to another farm station
04:56<Afdal>than to try and balance exactly how much of one train car you want
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04:57<@Alberth>you don't have to do balancing much, one cargo is less than fully filled, that's all
04:58<Afdal>but if you want to keep the station ratings maximized for both of them
04:59<@Alberth>that's not a good reason, your previous ones were much better :p
04:59<@Alberth>since you load both cargoes until one is full, you *are* loading both cargoes all the time
05:00<Afdal>hmmm
05:00<@Alberth>but I agree, more platforms is much easier; I tend to build 4 platforms
05:00<Afdal>But still, when one type increases production over the other
05:00<Afdal>you're going to end up wasting money
05:00<@Alberth>yes, then the other cargo is not fully loaded
05:00<Afdal>I guess I'm saying it's just not as efficient
05:01<Afdal>4 platforms for a single farm?
05:01<@Alberth>not sure, waiting longer also costs money :) never bothered to do any math on it though
05:01<Afdal>that's so much work when you're doing terminus
05:01<@Alberth>yeah, 2 trains for each cargo
05:01<@Terkhen>use trucks :P
05:02<Afdal>no :P
05:02<@Terkhen>your call, but trucks are great ;)
05:03<@Alberth>especially with FIRS, trucks are fun with farms :)
05:03<andythenorth>hmm
05:03<@Alberth>you can make elaborate schemes where trucks drive around between farms until they are full
05:03<@Alberth>if you'd to do that with rails, you have to place so much track
05:04<Afdal>What is FIRS anyway
05:04<@Terkhen>of course I did not mean the default trucks :)
05:04<@Terkhen>a NewGRF industry set
05:04<Afdal>What does it do
05:04<@Terkhen>new industries, new cargos
05:04<Afdal>:o
05:04<@Alberth>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=44177
05:04<@Terkhen>of course, you need vehicle NewGRF sets to carry those new cargos
05:04<andythenorth>hmm. BANDIT will have at least 32 truck models between 1905 and 1950. Sounds a lot
05:05<@Alberth>less than 24 hours old!
05:05<@Terkhen>I wonder if the OpenGFX+ sets work with the new FIRS
05:05<@Alberth>Terkhen: good enough excuse :D
05:05<@Terkhen>Afdal: for FIRS 0.7.0 you will need to play with OpenTTD 1.2.0 beta, if you prefer to stay with 1.1.4 you can use FIRs 0.6.4
05:05<@Terkhen>:)
05:05<Afdal>I like how nowhere in that topic post does it actually explain the acronym
05:06<andythenorth>Terkhen: you think we might have broken cargo support?
05:06<Afdal>You OpenTTDers and your irritating jargon D:<
05:06<@Terkhen>I don't know
05:06<@Terkhen>you did a lot of changes so I'm assuming that you did until someone tests :P
05:06<andythenorth>if we broke class-based refits, something is wrong with classes conceptually...
05:07<andythenorth>if we broke graphics...well
05:07<@Terkhen>Afdal: FIRS means FIRS Industry Replacement Set
05:08<andythenorth>Afdal: it's in the thread title :D
05:08<Afdal>oh it's a recursive acronym
05:08<Afdal>u guise are so silly
05:08<@Alberth>Afdal: we are slowly exposing you to the jargon, until it becomes natural. Before you know it, you understand it, and can have discussions about it
05:08<andythenorth>BANDIT is the stupidest recursing acronym so far :)
05:08<Afdal>noooo
05:09<@Terkhen>we should do a divide and conquer recursive acronym next time
05:09<andythenorth>so no-one thinks ~1 new truck per year is too many?
05:09<@Alberth>Terkhen: one where you must write a program for to understand it :)
05:09<@Terkhen>and the acronym could be the name for such program :)
05:10<@Alberth>andy, I am not a bandit-user yet
05:10<andythenorth>nobody is afaik :)
05:10<andythenorth>not even me :p
05:10<@Alberth>0 downloads? :)
05:10<@Terkhen>no release
05:10<@Terkhen>and no code AFAIK
05:10<andythenorth>only 48 commits
05:10<Afdal>Actually, that's an interesting idea
05:10<Afdal>I've never tried a self-regulating road vehicle network :o
05:11<@Terkhen>andythenorth: IMO that's okay, but you know that I like trucks :P
05:11<@Terkhen>road networks are fun, simpler than trains but you have more load at stations and key points of the network
05:11<@Alberth>hmm, do the offers for testing vehicles of some type X appear when you set the max vehicle count of X to 0?
05:12<andythenorth>eGRVTS adds ~40 trucks in the same time frame
05:12<@Terkhen>I mostly play with trucks because I can't be bothered to build complex junctions to be honest
05:12<Afdal>I tried making a massive two city passenger network one time
05:13<Afdal>I couldn't figure out how to increase the capacity of my road
05:13<Afdal>due to breakdowns and trucks being dumb and taking forever to pass others
05:13<@Terkhen>build extra roads, place stations in them, use a random conditional order to distribute them among the different paths
05:13<Afdal>Eventually I made two roads with waypoints and separate orders
05:13<Afdal>that was the only way I could figure out how to solve it
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05:14<andythenorth>checkout src and improve road vehicle overtaking? :)
05:14<@Terkhen>if you have slower trucks, they can conditionally use a different road, and in slopes you can force them to use a separate path too
05:14<Afdal>:o
05:14<Afdal>oh boy
05:14<Afdal>I'm trying that now
05:14<@Terkhen>IIRC there is a crazy road vehicle only game at openttdcoop archive
05:14<Afdal>Really, I thought they only played with trains
05:14<@Terkhen>which does even more crazy stuff
05:14<andythenorth>hmm. Do RVs overtake a broken down RV? Or do they just queue?
05:14<@Terkhen>mostly, yup
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05:15<Afdal>I need to see this save O:
05:15<Afdal>they queue for a while
05:15<Afdal>and then eventually they'll overtake after waiting too long
05:15<@Terkhen>andythenorth: RVs overtake if they think that they have enough room before the next cross road, if no one comes from the other direction and if they are not an articulated vehicle
05:15<Afdal>Sadly one-way roads does nothing to help this
05:15<@Terkhen>IIRC those were the conditions
05:15<@Terkhen>the code itself is kind of arcane
05:15<andythenorth>Terkhen: I'm not sure they overtake a broken down RV
05:15<@Alberth>Afdal http://blog.openttdcoop.org/index.php?s=self+regulating <-- self regulating ideas taken to the extreme :)
05:15<andythenorth>maybe 2012 is the year of RVs? :P
05:16<@Terkhen>that was 2010 :P
05:16<andythenorth>acceleration?
05:16<andythenorth>:)
05:16<@Alberth>must have missed that year :)
05:16<@Terkhen>enjoy realistic acceleration, nothing else is coming for RVs
05:16<@Terkhen>:D
05:16<andythenorth>past few years have mostly been the years of industries and ships
05:16<@Alberth>ships?
05:17<andythenorth>there were quite a few patches relating to newgrf ship stuff
05:17<andythenorth>small but needed
05:17<Afdal>There was finally a well-differentiated ship newgrf not too long ago
05:17<@Terkhen>1.2.0 has mostly NewGRF things :)
05:17<Afdal>But sadly they were still really impractical
05:17<@Alberth>Afdal: yeah, andy created it
05:17<andythenorth>there have been lots of industry-related patches
05:17<@Terkhen>I have to cook a cake, bbl
05:17<Afdal>due to slow speed and high capacity
05:17<Afdal>I tried doing a game with it before
05:17<@Alberth>Afdal: like real ships :)
05:17<Afdal>well OpenTTD is a game D:<
05:18<@Alberth>if you make ships faster, nobody is going to build trains any more :)
05:18<@Alberth>like Terkhen is already lured to the dark side of trucks :D
05:18*Alberth hugs Terkhen
05:19<Afdal>Actually I just kinda wish there was more to ships
05:19<andythenorth>what do they miss?
05:19<Afdal>More meaningfully different types
05:19<Afdal>If you're moving people there's no point in using anything but hovercraft
05:19<andythenorth>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=45435
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05:19<Afdal>and the refittable cargo ships are kinda useless
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05:20<Afdal>The only good use for ships are oil rigs
05:20<andythenorth>nah
05:20<Afdal>Yeah, FISH, that's the newgrf I used
05:20<andythenorth>ships have infinite capacity per tile
05:20<Afdal>yeah
05:20<andythenorth>so they're insanely effective
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05:20<Afdal>at those two things
05:21<Rubidium>http://rbijker.net/openttd/misc/mine.png <- yeah, the ships are really needed to transport all the cargo as there's not enough place for trains anymore
05:21<Afdal>Gosh you guys, I just came in here to ask about industry production
05:21<Afdal>Stop making me talk ;-;
05:22<Afdal>You can always terraform some more room
05:22<Afdal>and transport from those oil rigs with trains
05:22<@Alberth>Afdal: not if you use every tile already :)
05:22*Rubidium wonders if Afdal opened the screenshot I linked
05:22<Afdal>I don't see every tile being used in that pic :)
05:22<Afdal>yes
05:23<Afdal>Actually that's nice
05:23<Afdal>I like your use of canals
05:23<Afdal>Why don't I see any buoys though?
05:24<Rubidium>buoys are for sissies that don't know how the pathfinder behaves ;)
05:24<Afdal>:O
05:24<Afdal>How does the pathfinder behave
05:25*Alberth is tempted to point to the source code, but refrains from doing so
05:25<Afdal>Just tell me how you get away with not using buoys
05:26<Afdal>Especially for those curvey canals
05:26<@Alberth>the pathfinder has lots of trouble with large open water, canals are not that
05:26<Afdal>Still you have to place a buoy after a certain distance don't you?
05:26<Afdal>Otherwise you get that "too far from destination" thing
05:27*andythenorth ponders setting cargo aging property for hovercraft
05:27<@Alberth>I don't know the exact rule, but I can imagine that happens after the path finder gets too many possibilities. That does not happen with canals
05:28<Afdal>I've trying making a spiral canal before
05:28<Afdal>And my boats needed buoys to navigate it
05:28<Afdal>despite there being no branches or anything
05:28<@Alberth>Afdal: the number of ways to traverse some open water is VERY large, the path finder tries them all. In a canal there is only a single path
05:29<@Alberth>could be, as I said, I don't know the precise rule for it
05:29<Rubidium>this savegame might be from the time that the check didn't work right ;)
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05:50<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23699 /trunk/src/goal_base.h: -Fix [FS#4928] (r23630): too much copy/pasting only allowed a silly low amount of goals to be created.
05:50<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23700 /trunk/src/subsidy_base.h: -Fix: the size of the Subsidies pool used a random macro, which didn't really make sense in the grand scheme of things
05:51<TrueBrain>and happy new year guys :)
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05:52<Afdal>But I live on Baker Island :(
05:54-!-Pixa [~pixa@79-68-103-128.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #openttd
05:54<TrueBrain>so you want to say it is habited? That would be world news I guess
05:54<TrueBrain>expensive internet
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06:00<TrueBrain>KingPixaIII: (and one of your many aliases): please fix the stability of your connection; it is rather annoying to count the amount of joins/leaves you make during a day. Tnx!
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06:09<TrueBrain>@seen Pixa
06:09<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: I have not seen Pixa.
06:09<TrueBrain>@seen LordPixa
06:09<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: I have not seen LordPixa.
06:09<@peter1138>@seen TrueLight
06:09<@DorpsGek>peter1138: I have not seen TrueLight.
06:09<TrueBrain>@kban 3600 *@79-68-103-128.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com
06:09<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: Error: 3600 is not in #openttd.
06:09<TrueBrain>lol
06:09-!-Pixa [~pixa@79-68-103-128.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #openttd
06:10<TrueBrain>@kban Pixa 3600 Please come back when your connection is more stable. Tnx.
06:10-!-mode/#openttd [+b *!~pixa@79-68-103-128.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] by DorpsGek
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06:10<TrueBrain>that was easy :)
06:10<TrueBrain>now only his other IP ..
06:11<TrueBrain>and morning to you too peter1138 :)
06:11<@peter1138>morning :)
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06:15<@peter1138>herp
06:15<@peter1138>eclipse doesn't seem to let you open projects :p
06:16<@peter1138>Project -> Open Project is greyed out, heh
06:16<TrueBrain>Eclipse is annoying
06:16<TrueBrain>first make a workspace :P
06:16<TrueBrain>import a project in there
06:16<TrueBrain>fucking worst IDE ever :(
06:17*andythenorth ditched Eclipse, in favour of text editor
06:17<@peter1138>ah, did it
06:17<@peter1138>then it crashed, lol
06:17<TrueBrain>use a real editor
06:17<TrueBrain>netbeans, MSVC, notepad
06:18<TrueBrain>safes you a lot of grey hairs in this 2012 :)
06:18<@peter1138>notepad :p
06:18<Rubidium>notepad sucks
06:18<@peter1138>only 1 undo in notepad :p
06:18<Rubidium>it has no line numbers
06:18<TrueBrain>Rubidium: says a lot about Eclipse ;)
06:19<@peter1138>eclipse also had no installer
06:19<@peter1138>easy to remove, i guess
06:19<TrueBrain>Eclipse itself, sure
06:19<TrueBrain>even multiple versions are easy
06:19<TrueBrain>but if they share the default workspace
06:19<TrueBrain>oh-oh
06:19<TrueBrain>start running :P
06:20<TrueBrain>and the workspace is stored at a random location on your disk :D
06:23<@Alberth>you wouldn't want anyone to find your projects, now do you? :)
06:24<@Alberth>you can leave the project code in the VCS working copy though
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06:29<TWerkhoven[l]>notepad++
06:31<TWerkhoven[l]>as in the program called notepad++
06:33*Terkhen uses notepad++ and geany
06:34<@Alberth>oh, editor war!
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06:47*fjb|tab uses eclipse and ditched netbeans for becoming slower with every release and requiring special plugins to use compilers for embeded systems.
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07:00<TrueBrain>Alberth: yet nobody said: emacs!
07:01<TrueBrain>I guess because it is not an editor
07:01<TrueBrain>it is an OS after all
07:02<andythenorth>how done is roadtypes?
07:02<@Alberth>actually it is designed to be a generic text processing system :p
07:02<@peter1138>0%
07:02<TrueBrain>RT_ROAD and RT_TRAM, all done
07:03<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/roadtypes/repository
07:03<andythenorth>how are we going to keep the really big trucks out of your towns then? :O
07:03<TrueBrain>did you just ask about your own repos how far you are?
07:03<TrueBrain>that is silly
07:03<andythenorth>I think my project failed :)
07:04<TrueBrain>you made 1 commit!
07:04<andythenorth>I got stuck when I had to write savegame conversion :P
07:04<andythenorth>despite someone else telling me the code I needed to write :D
07:04<TrueBrain>so don't; if that is the worst you are missing, I am sure someone here can fix it up for you when the rest works :)
07:06<andythenorth>I'd just get stuck on the next step :)
07:06<andythenorth>my life doesn't allow learning new things at the moment
07:06<TrueBrain>hehe
07:06<andythenorth>I have at most ~10 mins of concentration at a time
07:07<TrueBrain>but the repos is frmo 2011-01! :P
07:07<TrueBrain>sorry, I will stop teasing you :D
07:07<andythenorth>I would like to learn C++, but I need more like ~1 day uninterrupted to make any progress at all
07:07<@Alberth>so roadtypes is 0.1% done now :)
07:07<andythenorth>BANDIT is 5%(?) done
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07:31<__ln__>it's a conspiracy! last week Michael Scofield was on House M.D., now capt. Lee Adama.
07:35<@Alberth>you really think that publicity is not organized ?
07:39<andythenorth>publicity is mostly disorganised
07:39*andythenorth has experience
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07:41<@Alberth>right, like commercial TV broadcasts previous films of some sequence a few weeks before the release of the next film by accident
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07:45<Wolf01>hello, looks like a year I don't visit this channel ;)
07:46<@Terkhen>hi Wolf01
07:56<TrueBrain>happy new year to you too Wolf01 :D
07:56<appe_>http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/1379544_460s_v1.jpg
07:59<appe_>i wish to use openttd on multiple monitors
08:00<appe_>if i stretch the window, the top bar automaticly centers, and the vechicle buttons gets right where the two monitors split.
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08:00<appe_>sugestions?
08:01<@Yexo>in advanced settings you can move the top bar to the left or right instead of centered
08:01<SpComb>appe_: set up a gui multiplayer server on one screen, and a multiplayer client on the other? :)
08:01<appe_>Yexo: oh!
08:01<appe_>ill try both
08:01<appe_>suggestions/sugestions
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08:02<SpComb>you won't have shared windows, though
08:02<SpComb>so it depends on what you want to do with them
08:02<@Alberth>appe_: play at 640x480? :P
08:03<appe_>Alberth: ;)
08:03<appe_>i would like openttd with dedicated split screen function
08:03<appe_>i guess
08:04<@Alberth>good luck implementing that for all our supported platforms
08:12<appe_>i know
08:13<appe_>but still, would be neat. :)
08:14<@Alberth>improving game play is probably time better spent
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08:18<@Alberth>appe_: the right approach would be to add support for it in SDL
08:22<appe_>sdl? :)
08:23<@Alberth>http://www.libsdl.org/
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08:24<@Alberth>For windows a different library is used, don't know which one
08:24<appe_>ah
08:24<appe_>neat
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08:25<SpComb>does OpenTTD use SDL as one of the blitters?
08:25<@Alberth>it nicely abstracts away the nasty hardware details :)
08:25<@Alberth>SpComb SDL is one of the surfaces it can blit to, yes
08:25<TrueBrain>Alberth: GDI :)
08:26<@Alberth>SpComb ie SDL and GDI are destinations for blitted openttd graphics
08:26<@Alberth>tnx TB :)
08:26<TrueBrain>yw
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08:27<SpComb>ah, blitter is above the SDL layer
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08:27<@Alberth>yep, 'blitting' is just jargon for 'copying bitmaps' :)
08:28<SpComb>SDL is video/
08:29<@Alberth>+keyboard + mouse + window manager event handling, and it can do other low-level stuff too
08:30<@Alberth>ie full-screen versus windowed mode is handled by it
08:30<SpComb>so SDL + GDI + Cocoa?
08:30<SpComb>and Allegro, whatever that is
08:31<__ln__>how can you not know what's Allegro
08:31<SpComb>missed out on Atari and DOS as a kid
08:32<@Alberth>no you need only one of those
08:32<@Alberth>eg Cocoa is the backend for Mac, GDI for windows only, SDL runs at many platforms
08:33<SpComb>quite, quite
08:33<@Alberth>I have played with Allegro maaaaany years ago, it also provides an abstraction away from the hardware, but what it can do, I don't know
08:33<SpComb>just wondering how many libraries you need to cover $many platforms
08:34<__ln__>you're coming dangerously close to starting yet another discussion of "why not SDL on all platforms?!"
08:35<TrueBrain>SpComb knows better :)
08:35<@Alberth>SpComb 'enough' probably :) it depends on how good you can match what you want with the available libraries :p
08:36<@Alberth>also, how well a given library implements its thing plays a role
08:41<TinoDidriksen>Switch everything to Qt GraphicsView
08:43<@Yexo>TrueBrain: for RV only, look around in the early posts in the NoAI forum
08:44<@Yexo>for an empty map that's quite slow due to a lot of houses: look around for cindini
08:44<@Yexo>the speed of that one has been improved already, but it might still be a nice testcase
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08:53<TrueBrain>Yexo: wuold you be able to post them in that thead this week or something?
08:53<TrueBrain>kinda hard for me to find which one you mean exactly :(
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08:59<@Yexo>TrueBrain: sure
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09:30<andythenorth>any swedes here?
09:30<andythenorth>I want a nice forest name
09:32<appe_>yes
09:32<appe_>for a forest industry?
09:34<andythenorth>for a truck manufacturer
09:34<@Terkhen>sherwood :P
09:34<andythenorth>that's English
09:34<andythenorth>and I was born there :P
09:34<andythenorth>plausibly need a fake name for Volvo-esque trucks
09:34<appe_>aha
09:34<appe_>well, the volvo trucks are made in braås, not so far from here
09:35<appe_>many swedish industries use cargo-like names with funny letters
09:35<appe_>such as "LASTO"
09:35<appe_>with last as in volvo-lastare, as in volvo-truck.
09:35<appe_>etc.
09:36<appe_>"LASTO trucks from Braås" sounds neat.
09:36<appe_>or else, if timber is the case, you could use geographic words to aid you.
09:37<appe_>"norrtimmer", i.e.
09:37<andythenorth>are there are any national or state forests in Sweden?
09:37<andythenorth>with nice names?
09:38<appe_>södra skogsägarna
09:38<SpComb>Åbo
09:39<appe_>is åbo state owned?
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09:39<__ln__>den är ingen skog
09:39<appe_>ah, menart.
09:40<appe_>The Swedish Forest Industries Federation
09:40<appe_>neat
09:40<appe_>sounds like a guerilla
09:41<andythenorth>Åbo is fun
09:41<SpComb>yes indeed
09:43<andythenorth>any others - short names better
09:43<__ln__>but it's a town and not a forest and SpComb knows it, but he's envious because he doesn't live there.
09:43<SpComb>hereay
09:43<SpComb>*heresay
09:44<SpComb>*heresy
09:44*SpComb speak english
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09:57<Zuu_>Andy, you want the name of companies operating forrest or name of forrest areas?
09:58<TrueBrain>hello there mister Zuu_ :)
09:58<TrueBrain>you read backlogs? :P
09:58<Zuu_>Yes :)
09:58<TrueBrain>:D
09:59<TrueBrain>Zuu_: would you be so kind to open up bug reports for all the errors / mistakes in GS you have found? I remember youtold about a few, but my memory is heavily failing on me :(
10:00<Zuu_>I don't remember exactly if there are any clear bugs or just missing features.
10:00<andythenorth>Zuu_: name of forest areas ;)
10:00<TrueBrain>Zuu_: same :P
10:00<TrueBrain>I remember something about loading newer GS
10:02<Zuu_>Yep. Also please se my question in the GS topic regarding binding tutorial map to specific GS version.
10:03<TrueBrain>can you make a (clear) bug report out of it? :D
10:05<Zuu_>But still be able to improve the GS in the future and release a new.copy of the same scenario but where the binding as changed to the new GS version.
10:06<Zuu_>I will try (when I get to a real keyboard)
10:07<Zuu_>And I'll try my best to not bee too cryptic ;)
10:08<TrueBrain>that is fine; tnx :D
10:12<Zuu_>Andy, we got forrests like "trollskogen" :) but that one is not large
10:13<Zuu_>Skogen = forrest
10:13<Zuu_>Or rather a specific forrest in this word shape
10:16<__ln__>Zuu_: english only, please
10:16<__ln__>f-o-r-e-s-t
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10:17<TrueBrain>at least he is consistent
10:17<Zuu_>Thanks for the correction.
10:21<Zuu_>Or you mean that you want names that are word by word translated?
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10:27<andythenorth>Zuu_: names of actual swedish forests ;)
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10:28<andythenorth>ideally not beginning with S
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10:44<Eddi|zuHause>[01.01.2012 15:39] <__ln__> den är ingen skog
10:44<Eddi|zuHause>[01.01.2012 16:16] <__ln__> Zuu_: english only, please
10:47<__ln__>i didn't say modern english
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10:58<Snail_>happy new year :)
10:59<andythenorth>hola Snail_
11:02<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23701 /trunk/src/map.cpp: -Codechange: give TileAddWrap() a 27% speed-up, by swapping entries in an if() statement, and reusing already calculated values (tnx to SmatZ for the ideas)
11:02<andythenorth>^ 'feels snappier' :P
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11:14*Mazur rises, as if from the grave, maoning and grumbling a little to himself,
11:14<Mazur>Did anyone get hte number on that bus?
11:22<Eddi|zuHause>the last beer must have been expired?
11:23<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23702 /trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp:
11:23<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Codechange: avoid using TileAddWrap() in FindStationsAroundTiles() by finding
11:23<CIA-6>OpenTTD: out where the border is in advance, speeding up the function with a factor 3
11:23<CIA-6>OpenTTD: (you got to love random statistics which has no real meaning in the grand scheme
11:23<CIA-6>OpenTTD: of it all :D)
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11:33<Mazur>Eddi|zuHause, that'd have been funny, as I only drank wine last night.
11:34<Mazur>A fizzy Italian number, quite nice.
11:34<Eddi|zuHause>they are called roman numerals, not italian numbers :p
11:37<Mazur>Funny man, eh?
11:38<Mazur>You're much too awake to have had fun last night.
11:38<Eddi|zuHause>yes, i already got up two hours ago!
11:38<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23703 /trunk/src/ (newgrf.cpp newgrf.h): -Codechange: allow a compiler to inline a wrapper function, avoiding creation of a function stack, massively increasing its speed, for a function that is called often
11:39*andythenorth went to bed at 00.30 and got up at 4am
11:39<@planetmaker>happy new year
11:39<andythenorth>nobody tell me sob stories :P
11:39<andythenorth>hello planetmaker :)
11:39<Mazur>You too, pm.
11:39*Mazur does not quite remember what time he went to bed.
11:39<Mazur>I think it was before dawn.
11:39<Mazur>BUt after alice.
11:40<Mazur>;-P
11:47<Snail_>hi planetmaker
11:48<Snail_>planetmaker: I've been working on the new graphics for custom tunnels we talked about a few days ago
11:48<@planetmaker>ah
11:49<Snail_>I can post something in a few mins about my progress so far, so you can tell me if I'm on the right track
11:50<@planetmaker>looking forward to :-)
11:50<@Alberth>oi pm
11:51*planetmaker pulls brand new FIRS :)
11:52<Snail_>is there a new FIRS out and I missed it? :p
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11:53<andythenorth>yarp :)
11:53*appe_ builds buses while going on a bus
11:53<andythenorth>last release of 2011
11:53<@planetmaker>we need to merge back all 0.7 changes you made to default branch, andythenorth
11:53<@planetmaker>as I assume they shall persist, right?
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11:54<LordAro>happy new year all :)
11:54<andythenorth>planetmaker: yes
11:54<andythenorth>we discussed that a bit yesterday after you left :)
11:55<andythenorth>we only need one branch now afaik
11:55<andythenorth>i.e. default
11:55<andythenorth>but I didn't want to change it in case you intended differently
11:56<Snail_>andythenorth: any new cargoes / cargo class / any changes in the existing cargoes?
11:56<andythenorth>some class changes
11:56<@Alberth>LordAro: hi, and a good year to you as well
11:56<andythenorth>Snail_ they're documented in the changelog
11:56<andythenorth>although we should maybe diff against 0.6.4 to be sure :P
11:56<Snail_>ok, will have a look :)
11:57<LordAro>hai Alberth, et al. :)
11:58<@planetmaker>Snail_: but only FIRS specific cargos. BDMT and SGCN iirc
11:59<Snail_>a-ha, I see
11:59<Snail_>still, the code in a trainset supporting them will have to be changed
11:59<@planetmaker>you're anyway safe, if you use the new properties which support explicit cargo refit and just use classes for unknown cargos :-)
12:00<@planetmaker>(a method I'd advise anyway, also given that not only FIRS sometimes adjusts classes, but ECS got into that habbit every 12 months, too)
12:00<Snail_>right...
12:00<andythenorth>Snail_: sorry - there's no way to preserve graphic support :)
12:00<andythenorth>if we change labels
12:01<@planetmaker>which is about the reason for the new cargo properties for vehicles
12:01<andythenorth>we needed to decouple labels + classes properly
12:01<@planetmaker>dunno how you code your set, but I'd really recommend to use them preferentially
12:01<andythenorth>otherwise classes fail as an abstraction mechanism
12:01<andythenorth>in theory it should always be safe to change cargo classes, as they should be a black box to vehicle sets
12:02<andythenorth>theory might not hold up in reality :P
12:05<Snail_>but classes are very useful for a vehicle set when deciding what cargoes to refit wagons to
12:05<Snail_>since we can only use 32 cargoes in the mask
12:05<Snail_>and if you sum up the ECS + FIRS unique cargoes, you get > 32 items
12:05<andythenorth>new props ...
12:06<andythenorth>limit is removed
12:06<@planetmaker>with the new properties there's no such limit, Snail_
12:06<Snail_>oh, I didn't know that
12:06<@planetmaker>just add the list of "I want these cargos" and "I do not want these cargos" and you're done
12:07<@planetmaker>thus explicit control. without much thought about bit masks and xor
12:07<Snail_>so you can use explicit cargo refit with cargoes that are anywhere in a vehicle set's CTT (not only in the first 32 places)?
12:07<andythenorth>much easier
12:07<@planetmaker>nor the cargos classes are your worry either
12:07<@planetmaker>*neither
12:07<Snail_>nice...
12:07<andythenorth>Snail_: yes, as you said
12:07<andythenorth>Snail_: how do you build your set? Do you have defines or macros or such?
12:07<Snail_>and can then also set the default cargo for any vehicle?
12:07<Snail_>I use m4nfo
12:07<andythenorth>I guess that has defines or macros or something similar
12:08<andythenorth>it's handy to set things like #define wagon_boxcar [list of cargos]
12:08<andythenorth>then use them for the cargo props ;)
12:09<Snail_>right, I see what you mean
12:12<andythenorth>I now template most of the action 0 props for my vehicles. Eddi|zuHause has gone even further :P
12:12<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but i'm severely insane :)
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12:21<Snail_>planetmaker: ok, I finished my first attempt for the custom tunnels
12:21<Snail_>http://imagebin.org/191217
12:21<Snail_>I only did the two views facing the player, for the temperate landscape, both original and openGF
12:21<Snail_>X
12:22<Snail_>as you suggested, I drew the landscapes with the grass and an edited bowl (I redid the shading to make it fit with different types of portals)
12:22<CIA-6>OpenTTD: alberth * r23704 /trunk/src/ (36 files in 5 dirs): -Doc: Doxygen comment fixes and additions.
12:22<Snail_>and I did both the part "behind" and the part "on top" of the trai
12:22<@planetmaker>Snail_: why do you leave the gaps in the background where your portals would cover them? What about other people with different ideas about portals?
12:23<Snail_>you mean the transparent blue part?
12:23<Snail_>I can replace it with grass. I thought we would be limited by the point when OTTD turns the vehicle invisible
12:23<Snail_>'
12:24<Snail_>i.e. if we had the portal in the "back" of the tile, so entering the tunnel a few pixels "later", wouldn't the train become invisible at the point when the original TTD tunnel started?
12:24<@planetmaker>I'm not entirely sure where it's made invisible. But I think only at the tile border
12:24<Snail_>oh
12:24<@planetmaker>that's why the front part is drawn over the vehicle
12:25<Snail_>I can replace the transparent blue from the background with more grass if you think it'd be better
12:25<+michi_cc>Snail_: Generally I think these can graphics can work. Can't tell yet if there's something to improve, but it's definitely a good start.
12:25<Snail_>thanks :) this is encouraging
12:25<@planetmaker>yep. I'd add the bit more grass, but it will work
12:26<Snail_>so I will add the grass and then work on the other sides
12:26<andythenorth>Snail_: they look nice :)
12:26<@planetmaker>just don't worry about what might be covered by sprites further in front :-)
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12:26<Snail_>thanks andy ;)
12:26<@planetmaker>we can draw on top of eachother without harm
12:28<+michi_cc>planetmaker: It's not the tile border but somewhere in the tile. For example http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/patches/cstunel.png from the czech tunnels glitches as the vehicle shows up only after it as fully left the tunnel.
12:29<Snail_>yep this is another question of mine. For the other sprites ( http://imagebin.org/191218 )
12:29<+michi_cc>Didn't check the code, but I'd guess 4lu from the tile border to prevent the front/back from showing on the next tile at the tunnel inside.
12:30<@planetmaker>I see, michi_cc
12:30<@Alberth>Snail_: the round grassy entrance and the rectangular stone entrance don't match very well imo, I would expect the stone to be more embedded in the ground in such a case
12:30<Snail_>I was thinking to replace 2367 and 2369 with just grass (or snow or desert sand) and change the bowl a little bit on 2368 and 2370
12:30<@planetmaker>Snail_: yes, definitely
12:31<@planetmaker>for the use with rail sets, they need only be ground. Should only be ground
12:31<Snail_>Alberth: yes that's true. I will have to edit my own stone portals a little bit. But as far as what the "base" is concerned, the "bowl" has to be generic so that it can work with many custom portal types
12:31<+michi_cc>Snail_: In this case I'd shorten the bowl a bit, maybe cut of the part where 2370 shows these two darker lines (and fill the are on the bottom sprite instead). That should give enough space to work with.
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12:32<CIA-6>OpenTTD: smatz * r23705 /trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: cache the last processed station in FindStationsAroundTiles() in order to make the code a bit faster
12:32<@Alberth>Snail_: I guessed as much, and the round yellow-ish entry looks splendid, I must say, no need for other entrances :p
12:32<+michi_cc>Make your portal bigger to cover more grass, place some shrubbery or something :)
12:33<Snail_>michi_cc: so add grass on 2369 on the left, where there are the transparent pixels, and instead turn the right edge of the bowl of 2370 to transparent, right?
12:34<+michi_cc>Yeah, bowl a bit shorter to give some working space and the grass on 2369 to fill up the hole.
12:34<Snail_>alberth: thanks ;) the yellowish one will be the TGV concrete portals. I still dunno whether it should look yellowish or grayish. I saw a few concrete portals look yellowish like the one I drew and liked it because of more variety
12:35<Snail_>michi_cc: ok got it. I'll implement the changes we discussed
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12:35<Snail_>then perhaps we can test it on the temperate climate only before I do the same for the other 5 landscapes?
12:35-!-fjb|tab [~frank@p5DDFCEA8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
12:35<andythenorth>do we get a choice of tunnels as per bridges? :P
12:36<CIA-6>OpenTTD: smatz * r23706 /trunk/ (7 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: prevent 'unknown command' doxygen errors
12:36<Snail_>this is a question for OTTD developers :D what I have in mind is to have one kind of portal for each rail type, but being able to choose them would be nice :p
12:36<andythenorth>one per railtype is sufficient imo :)
12:37<Snail_>I think so too ;)
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12:37<+michi_cc>andythenorth: No, you don't get choice :)
12:37<@Alberth>Snail_: yellow-ish seems the better choice to me, given your other grey-ish entrance
12:38<@planetmaker>michi_cc: if we have 'per railtype' we can at least choose via newgrf parameter ;-)
12:38<Eddi|zuHause>i see no technical reason to forbid a choice
12:39<Eddi|zuHause>it would be interesting to "abuse" such a choice for connecting two tunnel entrances to a double-track one :)
12:40<Eddi|zuHause>(although once again the wide distance between double tracks is a problem)
12:40<andythenorth>is introducing new cargo units possible?
12:40*andythenorth is having spec-reading failure :P
12:41<Eddi|zuHause>the "cargo unit" is just a string
12:42<Eddi|zuHause>it doesn't matter if you call it "crates of goods" or "furlongs of leather"
12:43<andythenorth>k
12:45<Snail_>Eddi!zuHause: yes but we could draw this --> http://www.annodellachimica.unito.it/Concorsi/Ipertesti/I.S.%20Sobrero_Ascanio%20Sobrero/Sobrero_definitivo/immagini/Sempione.jpg
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13:40<Zuu>TrueBrain: FS#4932 is for you
13:40<TrueBrain>tnx Zuu!
13:40<LordAro>are [[wikipedia:<pagename>]] links supposed to work on the wiki?
13:42<TrueBrain>Zuu: didnt you have a more imrpotant issue something about newer GSes not loading on older savegames?
13:43<Zuu>Not as far as I remember.
13:43<TrueBrain>I remembered something like that; that if you release a newer GS, they have to restart their map?
13:43<TrueBrain>not sure, I neded a testcase, but forgot afterwards
13:45<Zuu>Yes, ideally, it would be nice if I could ship a upgrade of a GS for running games. Though you told me it was not straight forward due to strings. But if you think it is not something that is by design.
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: translators * r23707 /trunk/src/lang/ (5 files):
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: catalan - 22 changes by arnau
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: indonesian - 19 changes by rusydan
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: italian - 2 changes by lorenzodv
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: russian - 2 changes by Lone_Wolf
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: serbian - 2 changes by etran
13:45<TrueBrain>make a bugreport out of it, and I will at least remember to give it a proper look ;)
13:48<andythenorth>anyone know what the second type B column refers to here? http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/CargoTypes
13:48<andythenorth>I'm baffled
13:48<andythenorth>in the table of cargos
13:51<Eddi|zuHause>imho there needs to be a way to update a GS for a running game, or add a GS to a game that doesn't have one yet. possibly guarded by the scenario_developer setting
13:52-!-FJ [4da65ea6@ircip1.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd
13:52<FJ>Anybody online?
13:53<TrueBrain>he says in a channel with 120 other people
13:53<TrueBrain>well, "entities"
13:53<FJ>Ghehe srry...
13:53<Eddi|zuHause>"cyborgs"
13:53<TrueBrain>like walking into a overcrowded mall and yelling: ANYONE HERE?! :D
13:53<FJ>Looking for a cool Bus GRF... any suggestions?
13:53<Eddi|zuHause>(sorry, just watched http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_zi9DfCXNw :))
13:54<LordAro>has no one added the 1.2.0 wiki page yet?
13:54*LordAro adds the 1.2.0 wiki page
13:54<Hirundo>andythenorth: That seems to be the Type B of FIRS / ECS cargos
13:55<andythenorth>both?
13:55<andythenorth>or just one?
13:55<andythenorth>your guess might be as good as mine :P
13:55<Hirundo>both, they seem ordered by Type B == nml/nfo ID
13:55<andythenorth>I'm deleting FIRS from that table :)
13:56<Zuu>TrueBrain: FS#4933 <--- sorry forgot to flag it as GameScript, and I'm not authorized to fix that
13:56<andythenorth>the information is worse than useless :P
13:56<TrueBrain>Zuu: fixed, and tnx
13:56<Hirundo>Type B is pointless as of grfv8, it was next to worthless before as it could change at any time
13:57<andythenorth>maybe it's valid for ECS, I don't know
13:57<andythenorth>FIRS shouldn't be in that list though
13:57<TrueBrain>Zuu: "Will not work as expected by the GS author" <- I dont follow?
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13:57<Hirundo>Perhaps the list could be kept for hysterical raisins
13:58<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i disagree... wherelse would FIRS be if not in that list?
13:59<andythenorth>not in that list?
13:59<andythenorth>we talk about the 2nd table on that page?
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14:01<Eddi|zuHause>i see... that table is fairly useless actually...
14:01<Eddi|zuHause>it should probably be removed completely
14:02<andythenorth>it encourages some very bad behaviour
14:02<andythenorth>can we remove it? Editing it to remove the FIRS column is a PITA
14:02<andythenorth>not using a CTT is fail
14:02<Eddi|zuHause>it's some data that is only useful internal to the industry grf
14:03<andythenorth>not using a CTT should be considered a violation of spec
14:03<Eddi|zuHause>it has no use for vehicle sets, and thus should not be in the specs
14:03<andythenorth>+1
14:04<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: want to make the edit? I have to bath a toddler...
14:04<andythenorth>or I'll do it later
14:04<Eddi|zuHause>we should open a discussion in the forum that drags on for weeks, and then nobody dares to make the actual edit :p
14:05<Zuu>TrueBrain: Answer at FS#4933
14:06<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: better if I just do it and take the flak then :P
14:06<andythenorth>I've just broken sync with ECS anyway for BDMT, so I have it coming to me :P
14:06<Eddi|zuHause>the answer to that is: use CTT-lists for refit
14:07<andythenorth>and the new props
14:07<andythenorth>which should be more widely explained
14:07<TrueBrain>Zuu: ah, got ya :)
14:07<TrueBrain>tnx
14:08<Zuu>TrueBrain: If you fix FS#4933, then 4932 is sort of solved. Although the situation that a user can get a newer GS in a old tutorial scenario can then happen.
14:08<TrueBrain>wll review, and let you know :)
14:09<Zuu>However, the later can probably be detected by the game script by checking the version parameter to GSController::Load(..) and just reject to run the tutorial instead of providing possible buggy behaviour to the user.
14:19<LordAro>tada! what'd you think: http://wiki.openttd.org/OpenTTD_1.2.0 ?
14:20<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23708 /trunk/src/tile_map.cpp: -Codechange: apply the same trick as r23701 to GetTileSlope(), gaining similar benefits
14:22<@Alberth>looks good :)
14:23<LordAro>ty
14:23<Zuu>LordAro: Is the support for Airport NewGRFs new in 1.2 or does 1.1 support OpenGFX+ Airports with the rotatable airports?
14:23<LordAro>i specialise in the version hitory pages
14:23<LordAro>considering i re-wrote most of them :D
14:23<LordAro>Zuu: i didn't see it in the changelog (where i got that list of features from)
14:23<@Alberth>Did you see http://bugs.openttd.org/task/4919 ? :D
14:24<LordAro>shush :P
14:24<@Alberth>np if you don't want to
14:24<LordAro>well, i could have a go
14:25<LordAro>but i think i ran into (thought) problems with regards to the current setup using a newgrf config, but AIs and GS's obviosuly not having that
14:26<@Alberth>I don't know how it is stored. It does know about which AIs there are, so it must store that information somewhere
14:27<LordAro>yeah, i guess each 'secion' (AIs, grfs) need their own function extracting that information, going onto a 'global' function
14:28<Zuu>LordAro: Is there a reason why http://wiki.openttd.org/OpenTTD_1.2.0 doesn't mention support for more airport layouts? (with rotated state machines)
14:28<Zuu>From what I can see it is new in 1.2 stable.
14:29<Zuu>Or is that included in "NewGRF 8"
14:29<LordAro>[19:23:56] <LordAro> Zuu: i didn't see it in the changelog (where i got that list of features from) <-- ;)
14:30<LordAro>oh, yogscast livestreamed OTTD again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29dikIcxfCY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_jZKmYdJRI
14:33<TrueBrain>and nobody told us? :(
14:35<LordAro>sorry, i only found out because i looked on their channel page
14:35<LordAro>:)
14:36<andythenorth>it was mentioned last night by someone
14:36<andythenorth>you were all....busy
14:37<LordAro>i g2g, bye all
14:39<LordAro>jonty comp and s acro mentioned it last night, if anyone cares ;)
14:40*Zuu would love to have captions for those videos, but that is probably wishing for too much :-)
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14:50<@Yexo><Zuu> From what I can see it is new in 1.2 stable. <- it was already supported in 1.1
14:51<Zuu>So that OpenGFX+ Airports require 1.2 is not because of anything airport related?
14:51<@Yexo>no
14:51<@Yexo>older versions worked in 1.1
14:51<Zuu>Ok
14:54<@planetmaker>it's more making use of easy-to-use newgrf features which is mostly below the hood
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15:22<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I removed that cargo list table, but it might be a mistake
15:22<andythenorth>much of the preceding text refers to it
15:22<andythenorth>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/CargoTypes
15:22<andythenorth>although I think it's mostly redundant information
15:22<andythenorth>and should instead say 'use a CTT'
15:22<andythenorth>opinions?
15:25<andythenorth>newgrf wiki = spec, and the spec entirely allows for using Type A and Type B IDs wherever you like
15:25<andythenorth>even if it's insane
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16:32<LSky`>andythenorth: , i added a savegame to your FIRS thread
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16:52<appe_>christ
16:52<appe_>inflation is killing me
16:56<Eddi|zuHause>inflation over 170 years increases the running cost by about factor 5
16:57<Eddi|zuHause>@calc (1.04/1.03)**170
16:57<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 5.16820201339
16:57<Eddi|zuHause>@calc (1.02/1.01)**170
16:57<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 5.33821002416
16:58<Eddi|zuHause>with 2% inflation it's slightly worse than with 4%
17:18<andythenorth>inflation hurts on long games
17:18<andythenorth>cost inflation seems to run higher than price inflation :P
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17:22<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that's what the above formula shows
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17:23<Eddi|zuHause>not the absolute price increase, but the relative increase of cost vs. income
17:24<LSky`>andythenorth: did you take a look at the savegame?
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17:32<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23709 /trunk/src/network/network_gui.cpp: -Feature-ish: try harder to sort text instead of fancy characters in the server names
17:34<andythenorth>LSky`: savegame loads fine for me
17:34<Elukka>bwah i think i don't quite have the skill to draw a good tanker yet
17:34<LSky`>it loads with FIRS?
17:34<andythenorth>yup
17:34<Elukka>Eddi|zuHause: any particular wagon you'd like drawn?
17:34<LSky`>strange
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17:35<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23710 /trunk/src/network/network_gui.cpp: -Change: make the default secondary sort method for the server list the number of clients instead of the name
17:35<LSky`>ill try a fresh reinstall or something
17:35<andythenorth>Rubidium: any way to get metadata from a savegame?
17:35<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: we need the earlier wagon generation, which is basically slightly shorter ones than the second generation
17:35<Rubidium>andythenorth: what kind of data?
17:36<andythenorth>ottd version
17:36<andythenorth>newgrfs used
17:36<Elukka>of which cars?
17:36<Rubidium>try gamelog in the ingame console when the game is loaded
17:36<Eddi|zuHause>the freight cars
17:36<Elukka>hm. freight cars are missing a lot of stuff too
17:37<@Alberth>andythenorth: type 'gamelog' in the console
17:37<andythenorth>LSky`: I can nothing obviously wrong with your save
17:37<LSky`>Right, a reinstall did the trick
17:37<andythenorth>nor do I know of anything else to test :|
17:37<LSky`>Weird error
17:37<andythenorth>file an ottd bug?
17:37<andythenorth>might be FIRS, but no FIRS dev has been able to reproduce
17:37<@Alberth>LSky`: reinstall what?
17:37<LSky`>openttd
17:38<andythenorth>LSky` where did you get your FIRS from?
17:38<LSky`>i tried automatic download first
17:38<LSky`>that failed
17:38<Elukka>tanker, lidded wagon, refrigerated wagon, stake car...
17:38<LSky`>then manual, that gave the same error
17:38<Elukka>is there a refrigerator variant of the g10?
17:38<LSky`>but now i reinstalled openttd, same grf settings, now it works :\
17:38<LSky`>i have the faulty installation still though
17:39<@Terkhen>good night
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17:44<andythenorth>LSky`: http://bugs.openttd.org/
17:45<Wolf01>'night
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17:45<andythenorth>good night
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18:08<xahodo>Hello
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18:19<iddqd>hi
18:20<iddqd>happy enw year etc :]
18:20<iddqd>I have a question, my ratings in both towns are really low, could this be because i’m feeding everything to my train station?
18:21<Eddi|zuHause>that was yesterday :=)
18:21<Eddi|zuHause>town ratings are low if you destroy lots of trees
18:21<Eddi|zuHause>or buildings
18:22<iddqd>so having only feeder stations in a town ahs no negative standing?
18:22<iddqd>rating w/e
18:22<Eddi|zuHause>no
18:22<iddqd>weird
18:22<iddqd>im kind of stuck now because i can’t build stations in the town
18:22<iddqd>and i can’t bribe them
18:22<iddqd>planting trees does no good (i plant trees in a large square around the city)
18:23<Eddi|zuHause>the rating rises with each visited station
18:23<Eddi|zuHause>so if you have a bus/tram system already, make sure all stations are visited regularly
18:23<iddqd>they are, but only to drop off people
18:23<iddqd>cuz there’s a trainstation in between the 2 towns that i have negative ratings for
18:24<Eddi|zuHause>"visit" means "load or unload at least 1 piece of cargo"
18:24<iddqd>yeah unloading lots
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18:25<iddqd>http://i44.tinypic.com/2ze061g.png
18:25<iddqd>that’s the situation in in
18:25<iddqd>there are many busses loading people in (center) and unloading next to station
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19:01<iddqd>:(
19:05<FLHerne>: ( ?
19:06<iddqd>i fail to fix my city
19:06<iddqd>i dont know what im doign wrong,. rating keeps @ very poor
19:07<iddqd>planting trees, putting in more ubsses
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19:11<supermop_>you could start a thread on the forum with a savegame posted
19:12<supermop_>I once had a game where a couple of cities got stuck on appalling for no understandable reason, I think it was a bug in a patch I was using.
19:12<supermop_>If you post a save game people might be able to look at it and see what is wrong
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20:14<dnger229>any one know how to fix this problum when i try to build sttions the botton to do so is gryed out
20:15<dnger229>#oftc
20:15<dnger229>whops
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20:17<Eddi|zuHause>yes.
20:17<Eddi|zuHause>sure.
20:17<Eddi|zuHause>no problem.
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20:38<yorick>r23709 will just cause lots of server names to start with AAAA
20:38<yorick>random sort instead of alphabetic sort may be better
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20:42<Eddi|zuHause>yorick: or we just start to manually ban servers which try to "optimize" their position...
20:48<FLHerne>Won't stop people choosing sensible names starting with "a" though, surely?
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20:49<FLHerne>Random would be fairer, is there a reason it doesn't work?
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21:00<mib_3m7zjl>hello
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21:29<iddqd>man i love this game
21:29<iddqd>it’s so good
21:29<iddqd>unfortunately i made a mistake in my design
21:29<iddqd>my trains keep crashing into buses
21:29<iddqd>fortunately, only drivers die
21:29<iddqd>:3
21:30-!-kkb110_ [~kkb110@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd
21:31<kkb110_>how do I compile 1.1 branch so that it can join other 1.1.4 servers ?
21:32<kkb110_>I changed to const char _openttd_revision[] = "1.1.4"; in rev.cpp.in
21:32<kkb110_>but still get "We made a protocol-error and our connection is closed" error
21:38<kkb110_>I'm using git 1.1 branch
21:41<fjb|tab>You have to use the exactly same version.
21:42<fjb|tab>iddqd: Try path signals.
21:42<iddqd>do they block roads?
21:42<iddqd>anywho
21:42<iddqd>can i upgrade airports without destroying them?
21:42<fjb|tab>The gates close as soon as the path gets reserved.
21:43<fjb|tab>No.
21:43<iddqd>dang it
21:45<kkb110_>fjb|tab, so I think I'm using the same version 1.1.4
21:46<kkb110_>the latest 1.1 is 1.1.4, which the last modification is 4th Dec
21:47-!-DOUK [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-93-36.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:48<kkb110_>identical to the website binary download version
21:48-!-encoded [~encoded@adsl-65-23-250-212.prtc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:51<@planetmaker>kkb110_: only the 1.1.4 tag is identical and network-compatible with 1.1.4 stable
21:51<@planetmaker>the 1.1 branch will not do
21:51<kkb110_>oh.... so I need to use tag instead of branch?
21:51<@planetmaker>yes
21:52<kkb110_>but where is the tag ? http://git.openttd.org/openttd/
21:52<@planetmaker>only in the svn repository
21:53<kkb110_>...... ok..... thanks
21:54<@planetmaker>hg and git work differently there, and thus the tags are not easily mirrored to those
22:07<iddqd>what does this mean?
22:07<iddqd>Can’t place here, airport too spread out
22:07<iddqd>erm
22:07<iddqd>can’t place airport here, stations too spread out
22:13<fjb|tab>Did you join it with other station tiles os bus stops?
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22:30<iddqd>yes fjb|tab
22:51<encoded>why are there so many bus crashes with trains D:
22:51<encoded>does killing people affect my reputation?
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22:59<supermop_>in real life? yes
22:59<supermop_>i'd advise against it
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23:34<kkb110_>I'm making something interesting :) automatic one-way train
23:34<kkb110_>trains will be automatically sold after unloading and purchased again at a depot near loading station
23:35<kkb110_>the point is, I can use this in goal servers :)
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---Logclosed Mon Jan 02 00:00:44 2012