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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-01-02

---Logopened Mon Jan 02 00:00:45 2012
00:08<Eddi|zuHause>encoded: each time an accident happens (bus or plane crash), all nearby station ratings drop to 0 and only slowly recover
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00:34<@planetmaker>kkb110_: that idea isn't new... Rondje implemented that cheat method years ago
00:34<DDR>Say, how do the goal servers work, anyway?
00:50<kkb110_>planetmaker, oh really? is there a website or something I can download and see?
00:51<kkb110_>DDR, it's a competition, your company has to grow as fast as you can
00:51<adamkex>are the deb files that are available for download also usable for dedicated servers?
00:51<kkb110_>once somebody reaches a certain size, he wins and the game will be restarted
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00:57<DDR>OK -- kkb110_, is there any tracking of how many companies you've grown?
01:07<Rubidium>adamkex: yes, all binaries can also be used as dedicated server unless you built the binary without network support. But the .debs have network support, so it will have the dedicated server
01:08<kkb110_>DDR, no, the server only consider one company you're controlling now
01:09<kkb110_>DDR, are you asking about ranking board? yes, some servers provides each user's overall score through many games
01:09<adamkex>Rubidium: thanks, since i am not using debian/ubuntu, do those debs have X/sdl as a dependancy?
01:10<adamkex>Rubidium: i can't check the deps
01:10<Rubidium>adamkex: yes, they depend on sdl and some other libraries that aren't needed for a server
01:11<adamkex>Rubidium: so then i guess i have to compile from source if i do not want SDL, correct?
01:12<DDR>Thanks. :)
01:21<adamkex>Rubidium: ok thanks
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06:29<__ln__>bueno nuevo anno duemilunodue
06:31<TrueBrain>@kick __ln__ English only (you had thatone coming)
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06:45<@planetmaker>wb :-)
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06:55<appe_>hm, i wish to set up my first own openttd-server. in terms of manual and wiki, where do i start? :)
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06:56<TrueBrain> ? :D
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06:56<appe_>yes, well ..yes.
06:57<appe_>ah, i see. the FAQ_multiplayer should be enough?
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07:07<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23711 /trunk/src/vehicle.cpp: -Codechange: don't chain the two vehicle hashes, but call them one by one
07:07<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23712 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: rename the two vehicle hashes we have to names that make clear where they differ in
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07:36<andythenorth>if my house is using 666 Watts of electricity, would that be bad?
07:38<@blathijs>andythenorth: Just make sure you don't maintaint that power usage for 666 seconds, cause then you'll have a Hell Gate open near your breaker box ;-P
07:39<andythenorth>I'll boil the kettle
07:40<andythenorth>that will put it to ~4KW
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08:36<iddqd>i can’;t fund large towns
08:37<iddqd>is this a server config issue? or what
08:37<@Yexo>I think that's intended
08:37<@Yexo>if you fund towns in-game you should grow them by providing good transport
08:37<@planetmaker>you can only fund small ones
08:37<iddqd>also whjat is the difference between a city and non cityu
08:44<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23713 /trunk/src/ (11 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: split VehicleMove() into two functions, to minimalize the work done where possible
08:44<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23714 /trunk/src/ (6 files): -Codechange: don't mix Viewport with non-viewport code
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08:52<jordgubb>just a question
08:53<__ln__>but no answer?
08:53<jordgubb>do you need anything to play lan on openTTD?
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08:57<@Yexo>a computer would be nice, and don't forget the local network
08:58<@planetmaker>a computer. a network. and a 2nd computer. and a router. A OS which supports running OpenTTD, means to obtain OpenTTD and actually unzipping or installing it and appropriate base graphics
08:58<SpComb>a router?
08:58<@planetmaker>it's also more fun to have a 2nd mate than play solo a lan game
08:58<kais58>just most routers have built in switches
08:58<TrueBrain>s/switch/a hub or better/
08:59<SpComb>a patch cable and MDI-X nics :)
08:59<TrueBrain>SpComb: or just a crosscable
08:59<SpComb>everything does MDI-X now, crossover cables are dead
08:59<TrueBrain>well, I guess you can even setup a nullmodem for it
09:00<TrueBrain>SpComb: everyone has a router, but that was not the point here :)
09:00<SpComb>LAN parties with internet access are lame
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09:01<@planetmaker>jordgubb: as you see: we take questions literally. We don't like meta-questions. We don't like to do guesswork caused by fuzzy questions :-)
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11:20<Wolfsherz>hi, is using dbsetxl still recommended for the actual openttd version?
11:21<Elukka>don't think there's any problems with it
11:21<Rubidium>I wouldn't recommend it; it's too difficult to get it, and it's just ancient and it hasn't had any bugfix for many many years
11:22<Wolfsherz>thats too bad :( any good replacement available?
11:25<Wolfsherz>i'm trying to get together a good set of newgrf... i am currently playing with German Town Names
11:25<Wolfsherz>Total Town Replacement Set
11:25<Wolfsherz>Modified Building Costs
11:25<Wolfsherz>Industrial Stations Renewal
11:25<Wolfsherz>New Stations
11:25<Wolfsherz>Stations Name from nearby Industry
11:25<Wolfsherz>DB Double Deck Coaches
11:25<Wolfsherz>German Road Vehicles
11:25<Wolfsherz>New Ships
11:25<Wolfsherz>German Signals
11:25<Wolfsherz>Generic Buffers
11:26<TrueBrain>please use pastebins for such lists
11:26<TrueBrain>thank you.
11:26<Wolfsherz>it was supposed to be a one-liner, sorry
11:26<Rubidium>Wolfsherz: DBSetXL is from (roughly) the time before OpenTTD supported NewGRFs
11:26<TrueBrain>no problem :)
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11:27<Wolfsherz>Rubidium: which train set do you use personally?
11:28<Rubidium>the default trains
11:28<Chris_Booth>Wolfsherz: I use UKRS 3.04 has some great trains
11:28<Chris_Booth>not a great looking set again it is for befor openttd had newgrfs
11:29<@Yexo>not sure of the current state of CETS, but you might like to try that one (use openttd 1.2.0-beta1 or a recent trunk version)
11:33<Wolfsherz>what does CETS stand for?
11:34<@Yexo>central european train set
11:35<encoded>is OpenTTD what "train freaks" do nowadays?
11:36<@planetmaker>funnily enough, there are two German Townname sets, Wolfsherz ;-)
11:36<Wolfsherz>planetmaker: i just know of one
11:37<@planetmaker>there's the one on bananas. And there's one hidden somewhere in the German forums, albeit a bit older
11:38<@planetmaker>the bananas one has in comparison additionally the option to generate random names.
11:39<Wolfsherz>i have got the one from bananas
11:39<Wolfsherz>Yexo: trying that train set, thank you
11:44<Eddi|zuHause>CETS has lots of missing graphics still (you'll get green boxes floating around)
11:44<Eddi|zuHause>and (almost) no prices have been set
11:47<Wolfsherz>you can zoom in now? great! thanks!
11:50<Wolfsherz>what about these opengfx+ sets? any good?
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11:53<@Yexo>yes, very :)
11:53<@Yexo>they basically provides small improvements over the default without changing too much
11:54<@Yexo>opengfx+landscape provides a gridless landscape, opengfx+airports allows you to rotate airports, opengfx+trains/rv allows you to refit your vehicles etc.
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11:56<Snail_>planetmaker: I did some more work on the tunnels we talked about yesterday
11:57<Snail_>the top 2 lines are attempts for the northbound tunnels
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11:58<Snail_>I tried to shorten the "bowl" in 2 different sizes. Which one do you think is better?
11:58<Eddi|zuHause>circuit breakers are evil...
11:58<Eddi|zuHause>... and then i'm like "wait... how do you boot this thing again?"
11:58<@planetmaker>you mean north-east?
11:58<@planetmaker>(North is straight up)
11:59<Snail_>the first 2 lines are NW-bound with two different lengths for the bowl
11:59<Snail_>the last 2 rows are the SE- and SW-bound with more grass as we discussed yesterday
12:00<@planetmaker>comparing the upper two for NW bound... unsure, possibly the lower one. But would need test, I guess
12:01<@planetmaker>don't throw away the other ones yet
12:01<Snail_>I can send you both and then we can test it. I'm almost done
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12:09<Eddi|zuHause>*mental note* don't debug configuration problems as root on the wrong machine
12:14<Elukka>i said browsing the brawa site for reference would get expensive... i was going to buy one small wagon to see how it runs
12:14<Elukka>now i have six coming
12:18<Snail_>planetmaker: I assume you will also need some custom tunnel portals to test this, right?
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12:25<astol>hey guys
12:25<astol>Just tried 1.1.4 version, it was a long time since I played last time
12:25<astol>can't figure out how to use new signals, Path signals
12:26<astol>I mean, they're explained pretty good everywhere
12:26<encoded>its easy!
12:26<astol>yeah, I guess - from the amount of questions on the internet (not much)
12:26<astol>so I think I'm missing some obvious point here
12:27<Elukka>well, i'd say they're easier than the normal signals
12:27<astol>what's the most basic way to use them?
12:27<Elukka>for small networks they're very forgiving, but it's good practice to only put signals in places where a train can safely (ie, not blocking a junction) wait
12:28<astol>Yeah, that I get
12:28<astol>but I can't understand how to replace placement I'm used to with path signals
12:29<Elukka>just place signals far away enough from junctions to be safe and then on the line as normal
12:29<@Yexo>astol: remove all your exit signals, replace all entry signals by a path signal. Combo signals you either have to replace or remove, depends on the situation
12:30<astol>I'm really oldschool, never used presignals :)
12:30<astol>here's what I usually use
12:31<astol>when I need to put two trains on a single track
12:31<astol>how do I replace this configuration with path signals?
12:32<astol>or maybe I'm just using some stupid configuration to start with?
12:32<astol>Yexo: replace with what?
12:33<@Yexo>a path signal
12:33<@Yexo>astol: put two path signals in that image in total
12:33<@Yexo>one on the left track and one on the right track, both at the end of the lane facing the double tracks
12:35<astol>Like this you mean?
12:35<astol>wait, no, not like this..
12:35<Wolfsherz>does 1.2 beta1 have a new title game?
12:36<@Yexo> like this
12:36<@Yexo>Wolfsherz: no
12:36<@Yexo>Wolfsherz: it'll probably be in 1.2.0-rc1
12:36<Wolfsherz>but 1.1.4 had a different one
12:39<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but the 1.2 one has not been decided yet
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12:42<astol>well guys, looks like I've got it :)
12:42<astol>thanks a lot!
12:43<astol>the only thing that keeps bothering me, is how did I manage to make them crash
12:43<astol>if the train waits until he reserves a path that doesn't cross anyone else's path
12:51<appe_>im playing on a server, and i have never done it like this before. i keep going bancrupt, but i cant see why
12:51<appe_>is there a standard time limit for a loan?
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12:54<@planetmaker>Snail_: yes, that would be good. It would be nice, if I would have alignment data for them, too.
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12:59<Snail_>planetmaker: ok, I will draw them and make a scheme so that you know how to align them
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13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: translators * r23715 /trunk/src/lang/ (5 files):
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: luxembourgish - 48 changes by Phreeze
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: portuguese - 7 changes by SupSuper
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: turkish - 100 changes by niw3
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: ukrainian - 11 changes by Fixer
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: welsh - 1 changes by kazzie
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14:06<nat_>Hey, is there any way to remove newgrif files from scenerios?
14:07<nat_>you used to be able to disable them once you opened the scenerio, it would just start paused and warn you about instablility
14:07<@Yexo>too many people ignored that warning and still filed bug reports, so we've disabled that functionality be default now
14:07<nat_>By my favorite map has a Newgrif dependency that cannot be found anywhere, and I can't take it off.
14:07<Rubidium>yeah, and 99% ignored the message and a significant part of these people complained/filed bug reports caused by the removed NewGRFs
14:07<nat_>is there away to turn it back on?
14:08<nat_>because in older versions I never had that problem with this specific map
14:08<nat_>I don't even know why the Newgrif is in it.
14:08<@Yexo>yes, by turning on the scenario developer setting
14:08<@Yexo>search around if you don't know how
14:08<nat_>where is that option?
14:08<Rubidium>I think you you mean "noticed" instead of "had"
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14:15<nat_>well I turned that option on and I get a different bug. It's complaining about invalid town name genorators.
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14:16<nat_>is there any way to remove a grif from a scenario without opening it?
14:16<nat_>I used to just be able to open the scenerio and remove the grif and nothing happened.
14:16<nat_>The Map is "The Barrens"
14:18<@Terkhen>nat_: that's one of the errors you can get after removing NewGRFs, yes
14:18<@Terkhen>and no, you need to open it at the scenario editor or as a game
14:18<nat_>same thing happens if I do either.
14:19<nat_>it worked back in the old versions
14:19<@Yexo>the scenario "The Barrens" opens for me without any problems
14:19<nat_>is there no way to sanitize this map for the ones?
14:19<@Yexo>the grf can be found in the openttdcoop grf pack
14:20<@Terkhen>you need the NewGRFs included in the scenario... if you don't care about industry/town placement you can open the scenario in the scenario editor using 1.2.0-beta1 and use "save as heightmap"
14:20<@Terkhen>then you can play that heightmap with whatever climate/NewGRF selection you want
14:21<@Yexo>"the barrens uses "English (Additional)" as town names, you shouldn't get an error on that
14:22<nat_>it says it needs newstatsw.grf
14:22<@Yexo><Yexo> the grf can be found in the openttdcoop grf pack <- as I said, it can be found
14:22<@planetmaker>yeah. get that newgrf
14:23<nat_>why aren't they on the list in the game?
14:24<@Yexo>because the author of that newgrf didn't upload it, and nobody else is allowed to
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14:26<nat_>do I just copy everything from the zip into the directory?
14:26<nat_> /data that is
14:26<Elukka>Eddi|zuHause: do we need württemberg coaches? they look pretty nice and distinct
14:27<nat_>oh strange
14:28<nat_>I still get the broken savegame problem with the right grif
14:30<nat_>that's my favorite map and I can't get it to work
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14:44<Zuu>nat_: Can you create a new map with that particular NewGRF? Does the md5 of the newgrf that you downloaded match the one used in the scenario?
14:44<Zuu>Could be that it is a older version in the scenario maybe?
14:46<Zuu>Btw, for me it says that the path to the newgrf file is ottdc_grfpack\7_stations\newstats\newstatsw.grf
14:47<Zuu>ottdc_grfpack is a directory in my data directory in Documents\OpenTTD.
14:47<CIA-6>OpenTTD: smatz * r23716 /trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp: -Revert (r23705)[FS#4937]: unforeseen consequences
14:48<nat_>the scenario is old
14:48<nat_>and I can't find a newer version
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14:50<Zuu>I ment that you must make sure to obtain exactly the verison of the newgrf as was used for the scenario. Not a newer one. Not a older one.
14:51<Zuu>As the path I posted above doesn't go into a legacy pack, it shows that you should be good with the last stable grf pack.
14:52<Zuu>But if you want to debug this further, you could match the md5 of your downloaded newgrf-file and what is claimed by the scenario.
14:52<nat_>so how do I do that?
14:55<nat_>the map was made for 0.6.0-beta2, so which pack would correspond with that pack?
14:55<nat_>that build rather
14:56<appe_>this sucks
14:56<Zuu>Do you know what md5 is? If not, I suggest reading up a bit or waiting for someone with more patience to explain it. You could also start by mentioning with OS you run.
14:56<appe_>early in a hard network game. bus build iron ore > steel mill > factory > city
14:56<appe_>no particular money, and the iron ore industry vanishes
14:57<appe_>twat-faces life.
14:57<nat_>windows 7
14:57<SpComb>appe_: reincorporate
14:57<Zuu>nat_: also did you do as I suggested to verify that OpenTTD finds the grf in question by trying to create a new game with it?
14:58<appe_>SpComb: no money, and to strict loan rules.
14:59<nat_>MD5sum is 44EB2F155862E4D4F0AB67
15:01<Zuu>of what?
15:01<nat_>and making a map with it normaly works fine
15:01<Zuu>both, or just one?
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15:01<nat_>you know, I don't think I can tell
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15:01<Rubidium>6D620601 44EB2F155862E4D4F0AB671D7021AF54 NewStations V0.42 05.09.05 (one of 6 with the same name)
15:02<nat_>the game seems to assume this is the one it needs,
15:02<nat_>well Fffffffffffffffffffffff
15:02*nat_ shakes fist at whoever decided to give 6 different versions the same name.
15:04<nat_>how do I know which one i need?
15:04<nat_>the game just seems to match the name
15:04<@planetmaker>the load game dialoge will tell you the md5version. But it should load also w/o matching md5sum
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15:07<nat_>oh here we go
15:07<nat_>no wait it shows the same one as before.
15:08<nat_>I could just do the highmap thing, but in a tropical map that would ruin the desert bits
15:08<nat_>also I like the industry/town placement
15:09<Zuu>nat_: Try last nightly
15:09<Zuu>of OpenTTD.
15:09<Zuu>I get the broken town generator error with 1.1, but not with last nightly.
15:09<nat_>should I uninstall?
15:09<Zuu>1.2 beta will probably also work. I'll check.
15:09<nat_>uninstall first?
15:10<Zuu>1.2-beta 1 also works.
15:10<@planetmaker>openttd needs no real install
15:10<Zuu>You can have them side by side
15:10<@planetmaker>just unzip the newer one into a dir parallel
15:10<Zuu>To clarify, not in the same directory as you 1.1, but another.
15:12<nat_>and If I install over it will it replace it?
15:12<nat_>or will it break?
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15:12<Zuu>It will usually not break, but mixing manual install with installation managed by an installer is sually not a good idea.
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15:13<Zuu>However, if you overwrite your old files, make sure to unzip all files of 1.2 beta, not just openttd.exe.
15:13<nat_>i use installer for both cases
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15:13<Zuu>Cleanest and best is however to make a separate install. Your config files etc. are usally not stored ther anyway.
15:14<nat_>I'm not confidant to manual install.
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15:14<nat_>IT WORKS!
15:14<nat_>thank you people!
15:17<Zuu>You will want to checkout the forums or for next beta and the RCs as they arrive. I usually run the nightly builds with works in most cases so the beta should be fairly stable, but when running "blending edge" it is a good idea to get all updates.
15:18<nat_>the old question, run the latest and have support, or the older ones and have stability.
15:19<Zuu>In case of OpenTTD, I would just run the latest and have all recent bug fixes. In fact I've written a luancher for OpenTTD that updates it before starting it. :-)
15:20<nat_>another unrelated question, is there any way to make the towns less anal? without cheating or anything
15:20<nat_>Bribery is really expensive and not really effective.
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15:20<Zuu>Buy them trees
15:20<nat_>the only real way to lobby is to plant tons and tons of trees
15:21<nat_>but sometimes i run out of room for trees
15:21<nat_>you should be able to buy them upgrades
15:21<Zuu>Then demolish the trees and build new ones.
15:21<nat_>or hire lobyists.
15:21<nat_>but demolishing the tress makes them mad aggain
15:21<Zuu>There is a mimimum level on how angry they can get. So demolish more trees than that limit and then build them up again.
15:22<nat_>anyways, there should at least be an extra permissive level
15:24<nat_>because permissive isn't
15:24<@planetmaker>oh it is.
15:24<nat_>I can't imagine playing the game on the less permissive levels
15:24<@planetmaker>it's just not the cozy forgiveness a mother has with her 3-year old ;-)
15:24<Zuu>Make sure to build your stations before building the infrastructure and you should be good.
15:24<nat_>also, they should temporarily lower there raiting when they offer subsadies
15:24<nat_>because that's just TERRIBLE
15:25<nat_>"Connect us to that other town NOW!" "sure just let me build this roa..." "NO!"
15:26<nat_>also, how do i turn tooltips on
15:26<nat_>I can't tell what all these crazy signals are without them
15:26<Zuu>They are on
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15:26<Zuu>Depending on your settings either hold your mouse a while or right click on the buttons.
15:26<nat_>oh wait I was just not holding it down
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15:27<Zuu>Hmm, this scenario provides some good excercise for my AI :-)
15:30<iddqd>what are must have newgrf files to play with?
15:34<nat_>I like tropical refurbishment
15:34<nat_>or whatever it's called
15:34<nat_>and industrial stations
15:35<nat_>are there any AIs that aren'
15:35<nat_>aren't retarded?
15:35<Zuu>please define retarded
15:36<nat_>build crazy shit that goes nowhere and gets in the way
15:36<nat_>and looks ugly
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15:36<nat_>also, is it worth it to build short range air routes to fill a maill subsady?
15:36<Zuu>sure, there are several quite good AIs
15:38<nat_>it would be cool if you could build depots like stations
15:38<Zuu>But mind showing a bit more respect to the effort that all AI authors has spent on their AI. I'm sure several of them have taken 100 hours or more to write.
15:39<nat_>make servicing trains without causing traffic jams easier.
15:39<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23717 /trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#4927]: ships going to wrong dock location when moving the dock while the game is paused
15:39<iddqd>if a server adds grf files
15:39<iddqd>are clients forced to download them as well?
15:39<iddqd>or how does that work
15:39<MagisterQuis>Ok, so why do we have to have grf files to run a dedicated server?
15:39<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23718 /trunk/src/ (ai/ai_core.cpp game/game_core.cpp): -Fix [FS#4936]: rescanai caused crash when the AI settings of an AI was opened
15:40<TrueBrain>MagisterQuis: grfs are more than graphics
15:40<TrueBrain>it is like needed the executable to run a dedicated
15:40<TrueBrain>only grfs are plugable files
15:40<MagisterQuis>TrueBrain: Oh.
15:41<TrueBrain>iddqd: yes; if the GRFs are on BaNaNaS, this is made really easy.
15:41<Rubidium>grf stands for "game resource file"
15:44<Eddi|zuHause>that, of course, is a backronym
15:45<nat_>it is?
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15:51<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: at least it's better than "graphics resource file" or whatever else you come up with that contains graphics
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16:03<DDR>^Spike^: Are you the last one?
16:03<nat_>towns don't seem to care about resources delivered to industries within there radius
16:03<^Spike^>i hope not.... i hate to repopulate the world :)
16:03<nat_>even if they care about the train station that was developed to connect to it
16:04<nat_>I guess people in this game don't have jobs
16:04<DDR>Guess you're not golden, then. :(
16:05<DDR>(yeah, that required a bit of [canadian] railroading history to make sense :P )
16:08<DDR>Ok, I mean 'american', not 'canadian'-- here's the link.
16:08<DDR>Ah well, not much difference.
16:11<nat_>it would be nice if you could place office buildings in cities
16:11<DDR>You can. :P You can fund the construction of new buildings, but it costs a lot.
16:11<nat_>they could either lobby (slowly spend lots of money to raise the towns attitude over a long period of time) or administer (lower maintenance costs of everything by a small amount)
16:12<nat_>I mean office buildings for your company
16:12<nat_>not just the HQ
16:12<DDR>Oh. Yeah, that'd be interesting.
16:12<DDR>Planting trees seems a little strange after the first full-blown forest.
16:15<frosch123>mayans were wrong. grfcrawler was not shut down at the end of 2011
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16:34<@Terkhen>good night
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16:44<nat_>why is the macarana in this game?
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16:57<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23719 /trunk/src/network/network_content.cpp: -Fix [FS#4930]: extraction of music packs failed
16:57<Elukka>Eddi|zuHause: is the 'official' scale length/24x12 or 24x12.5 now?
17:00<@planetmaker>what makes your heart so heavy, dear Rubidium?
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17:01<Rubidium>planetmaker: the words "officials" and "scale" being used in a sentence without "no" or "none"
17:02<@planetmaker>well. concerning a certain set that may make sense
17:02<@planetmaker>concerning openttd: certainly not
17:05<Elukka>it's related to cets in particular, so it makes sense here
17:08<Rubidium>a track is 5 pixels wide, a tile is 8 pixels high. Assuming Dutch rail that's respectively 1.435m and >5m
17:08<Rubidium>not really up-to-scale I'd say
17:09<Elukka>yes but my question was related to the length of rail vehicles within a newgrf where it's pretty important
17:13<nat_>argh why can I never get signals to work
17:13<nat_>two trains count as being on the same block even though the way the tracks are arranged they could never intersect
17:13<nat_>without making greater than 90deg turns
17:15<Elukka>are you using path signals?
17:15<Elukka>if not, use them, watch it work
17:16<nat_>I do
17:16<nat_>oh path signals?
17:16<nat_>I use presignals
17:16<nat_>I don't understand path signals
17:16<nat_>heck even the enter-exit-combo presignals confuse me
17:16<Elukka>path signals are simpler than that
17:16<nat_>it dosn't help that they all look similar.
17:17<Elukka>for the most part they're just normal signals but they let multiple trains to the same signal block if their paths don't cross
17:17<nat_>is there a good tutorial?
17:17<nat_>what I /try/ to do is have a two way track. then have a station shunted to the side of that
17:17<SpComb>they're quite different
17:17<Elukka>put them only in positions where your trains can safely wait (ie not block a junction), so however long your longest train is, put them that distance away from a junction
17:18<SpComb>well, in that how they reseve track
17:18<SpComb>on the trailing side
17:18<Elukka>nat, that's probably a lot easier with path signals
17:18<nat_>the station gets 1 bay for each different train visiting, in the chance they all decide they want to load at once.
17:18<SpComb>i.e immediately before a junction, and a train length after
17:20<nat_>is there a good tutorial?
17:29<V453000>just note one thing, pre-signals might not be as simple, but at the same time offer much more possibilities and trust me that they are the "better" signals in the end ;)
17:30<nat_>shit, time for work
17:30<nat_>argh, I havn't finished lunch yet!
17:30<nat_>I might just bike In i guess.
17:31<Elukka>path signals are the best general signal, though
17:31<Elukka>easiest to learn, i'd say, too
17:32<V453000>easiest, no doubt, but they also offer much less than pre-signals
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17:32<nat_>well what am I doing wrong with my presignals?
17:33<Elukka>i haven't really found an awful lot of use for presignals
17:33<V453000>what problem do you have nat_ ?
17:33<nat_>how do I take screenshots?
17:33<V453000>Elukka: with realistic network there probably isnt any indeed, but lets not get to discuss what is realistic and what not
17:34<Elukka>not sure what signal types have to do with realism
17:35<nat_>is there a screeshot key?
17:35<V453000>ctrl S nat_
17:35<V453000>Elukka: quite a lot, with realistic whatever people tend to hate "extra tracks" just for signal logic
17:36<Elukka>ah, yes
17:36<Elukka>i don't really do that, admittedly for aesthetics but also because i can't be arsed :P
17:36<V453000>and 99% "realistic" people use only PBS since they dont need to bother with any signal logic
17:36<Elukka>signal logic tracks aren't something a new player learning signals should try to get into, though
17:36<nat_>I hate how a train station will quickly become larger than the city it services
17:37<nat_>I'd like to see a transport game where train tracks only take up half a tile
17:37<SpComb>if it's inefficient
17:37<nat_>and a two way track is the same width as a road.
17:37<nat_>like in real life.
17:37<SpComb>or the town very small
17:37<Elukka>ideally, two tracks would fit within a tile
17:37<Elukka>at the current scale they would, the game just doesn't support it
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17:38<V453000>Elukka: certainly nothing a new player should learn immediately, but using the appropriate signals is vital. In general, PBS lets you use everything "meh whatever that works somehow" while pre-signals make you think about stuff
17:38<V453000>speaking very generally
17:38<Elukka>yes, so PBS are the best general signals particularly while learning the game
17:38<SpComb>path signals are aweeesome
17:38<Elukka>i think they should be treated as the 'basic' signal, rather than the actual basic signals
17:38<V453000>I disagree, basically because of the reasons I said
17:39<nat_>my station layouts
17:39<Elukka>most players never even play the game so far as to build networks where something like signal logic tracks are relevant
17:39<V453000>and from my own experience I have seen, people are lazy. Once they start using PBS, they will keep it that way. But for playing "better" and making their networks really more interesting, pre-signals are a must.
17:39<Elukka>it's not something to concern new players with
17:39<V453000>signal logic tracks dont matter, ignore that :)
17:40<SpComb>V453000: one defines "interesting" differently
17:40<nat_>in theoy these stations should be scalable, and trains should be able to drive past them without stoping
17:40<nat_>but in practice my signals fuck me over all the time
17:40<Elukka>saying 'well there are these easy signals and they work well but you shouldn't use them because then you'll be a bad player' seems like a good way to turn off new players from learning the game
17:40<SpComb>at least for me, "interesting" means "it grew organically to become this", and Path signals really help with that
17:40<V453000>for sure, I define it as interesting = having some idea in it, which putting PBS definitely doesnt have
17:41<SpComb>nat_: what are those signals, combo presignals?
17:41<V453000>no, entry signals
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17:41<nat_>is there a good way to have more than one line feed into and out of a station with this method?
17:41<SpComb>why :/
17:41<nat_>entry, exit, and combo signals.
17:41<SpComb>you've got weird signal layouts there
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17:42<nat_>because I like big networks that you could in theory travel between branches if you ever needed to (you won't)
17:42<SpComb>change them to path signals and remove half of them, and it'll probably flow better :)
17:42<Elukka>path signals are very forgiving in that you can have rails cross other rails as you like and it'll work
17:42<nat_>how do I AI proof this?
17:42<Elukka>it might slow things down, but it'll work
17:43<SpComb>V453000: plus, path signals let you do stuff like bidirectional track/platforms that aren't possible otherwise
17:43<SpComb>V453000: way more flexible
17:43<V453000>it is hard to explain
17:43<Elukka>in a discussion about basic signaling, presignals are irrelevant these days
17:43<nat_>where would i place them?
17:43<V453000>but to be simple, I say PBS lets you do more stuff with less brain power
17:43<SpComb>fine with me, I don't play to signal
17:43<Elukka>yes and you don't want to bother new players with complex systems that aren't necessary at their stage of the game
17:44<SpComb>nat_: at entrances to junctions, and exits from stations
17:44<V453000>but that is the thing :) new players wont bother
17:44<V453000>will they bother later?: )
17:44<Elukka>they might
17:44<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23720 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 3 dirs): -Fix/Feature [FS#4935]: show the script debug window also when the game script crashes
17:44<nat_>any other places?
17:44<SpComb>nat_: and remove the ones between the tracks and the station
17:44<SpComb>nat_: nope
17:44<V453000>in the past when there was no PBS, you had to learn signals and it made you think
17:44<Elukka>or they might not play the game at all if they get the idea that it takes a lot of boring reading of wikis to learn 4 types of signal
17:44*Mazur learned signals first thing.
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17:44<Elukka>this is not a thing that is appealing to most people
17:45<V453000>openttd isnt for "most people" anyway
17:45<SpComb>nat_: you can also have the station be bidirectional if you just place exiting path signals on both ends
17:45<V453000>also, why would you read a stupid wiki for signals, it is all written in the signal gui
17:45<SpComb>nat_: and then straighten out the tracks to get rid of all those extra curves around
17:46<Elukka>okay, look
17:46<Elukka>there are super enthusiasts like you (maybe even me) who learn every facet of all five types of signal
17:46<nat_> like this?
17:46<Elukka>most players, however, don't care, and they particularly don't care when they're concerned with learning the basics of the game
17:46<V453000>that isnt the point Elukka
17:47<SpComb>nat_: the NE-track is right, the SW track wrong
17:47<Elukka>if they become enthusiasts and play hundreds of hours they can learn it on their own accord
17:47*Rubidium wonders what those people are that know every facet of all six signal types ;)
17:47<SpComb>nat_: by "junction" I mean "track tile leading to tile with more than one track on it"
17:47<nat_>oh no a train just got stuck
17:47<nat_>entering from NE, it wont enter at all
17:48<nat_>just stops and stares at the signal
17:48<SpComb>nat_: so just move the signal on the northern track to the other side of the junction
17:48<Rubidium>SpComb: bad definition ;)
17:48<V453000>besides, I would say PBS is much less intentional for a new player, but that might be just a subjective opinion
17:48<SpComb>nat_: and add normal-not-one-way path signals to both ends of the station, leading out from the station
17:49<Rubidium>parallel diagonal tracks have tiles with two tracks on it, but they would never conflict in any way
17:49<SpComb>nat_: oh wait, uh, the north and south signal are right, the east and west ones wrong
17:49<Elukka>frankly, the attitude that new users must learn everything optimally to start using the program plagues a lot of open source development, and simply means most people do not wish to use those programs
17:50<nat_>I changed it to non one way and it still wont work
17:50<Elukka>it's very user-unfriendly
17:50<SpComb>the train has to have somewhere to go
17:50<nat_>it does
17:50<SpComb>if you don't have signals on the station, it might not be able to do that
17:51<SpComb>e.g. train coming from north won't be able to reserve itself a path through the station
17:51<SpComb>since it would cross itself
17:51<SpComb>you need signals on the station
17:52<SpComb>train stops at station -> signal right after station
17:52<nat_>oh now it seems to work
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17:52<Rubidium>Elukka: with path signals 'optimal' usually means 'right'
17:53<Elukka>if i'm teaching someone the game, as i have to a few friends of mine, i tell them the one basic rule of placing path signals and off they go building rail networks
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17:53<SpComb>train stops before junction -> signal right before junction
17:53<Elukka>it doesn't matter if it's optimal, it just has to work
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17:54<SpComb>I played with pre-signals in TTDPatch before OpenTTD even existed, and I don't need them anymore now with OpenTTD's real path signals :)
17:54<SpComb>for anything
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17:55<SpComb>although TTDPatch's rule-based signals were kind of neat
17:55<Elukka>the way i'd do it is rename 'path signal' to 'signal', give it a prominent button, and place the rest under the header 'advanced signals'
17:56<Elukka>rename the current 'signal' to 'block signal' maybe
17:56<Rubidium>the path signal is already the default signal
17:56<Rubidium>so click on the signal and build the thing
17:56<Elukka>won't lose any utility for hardcore players, more user friendly for newbies
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17:56<Elukka>true, and that's good
17:57<Elukka>we still get a lot of people coming here with signal questions and often the answer is 'use path signals', which they might not even have noticed exist
17:57<Elukka>or they think they're an advanced, complex thing
17:57<Elukka>which they don't want to touch because they think it's for advanced players
17:57<Rubidium>most of the time they're just long time players
17:57<Rubidium>or got openttd + configuration file from someone else
17:58<CIA-6>OpenTTD: yexo * r23721 /trunk/src/newgrf_house.cpp: -Fix (r23070): reading memory of a temporary (already deconstructed) object is invalid
17:58<SpComb>nat_: what does it look like now?
17:58<nat_>Just put normal signals on the entrance and exit to the platforms
17:58<nat_>works fine now
17:58<nat_>gotta go to work now though
17:59<nat_>damn buses
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17:59<SpComb>mixing path and block signals?
17:59<SpComb>uh oh
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18:09<__ln__>are there any national parks or such between or near New York and Toronto? (besides Niagara Falls)
18:09<Eddi|zuHause>how many do you need?
18:09<__ln__>one would be a start
18:10<Eddi|zuHause> <- ?
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18:13<__ln__>cool, that's a start
18:13<Elukka>Eddi|zuHause: which type of era I log wagon would be good to start with?
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18:14<Elukka>this is what comes to mind, but i don't know how it'd work in game or if it's a 'typical' one
18:15<Eddi|zuHause>i think this one needs some special template magic
18:15<Eddi|zuHause>because the pairs should look like single wagons without load, and as one wagon with load
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18:16<Eddi|zuHause>but yes, that's about what it should look like
18:16<Elukka>gonna have to guess the length unless you know figures
18:16<Eddi|zuHause>the stakes would be removed if refitted for wood (logs) transport
18:16<Eddi|zuHause>the length is in the tracking table
18:16<Elukka>well that's the easiest sprite to draw then :P
18:16<Elukka>what's it called there?
18:16<Eddi|zuHause>"Langholzwagen" or something
18:17<Elukka>want me to do the individual wagons (apparently they were used on their own too) on separate templates or do something weird and put them on a single one?
18:17<Eddi|zuHause> <-- that's what it looks like empty, without stakes
18:17<Elukka>what's that thing in the middle?
18:17<Eddi|zuHause>do single wagons
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18:18<Eddi|zuHause>that's some thing that keeps the logs rotatable around the axis
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18:21<Eddi|zuHause> <-- looks somewhat like this when loaded
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18:25<Elukka>i remember seeing these in märklin and fleischmann catalogs as a kid :P
18:26<Eddi|zuHause>basically each wagon works like a bogie underneath the logs
18:27<Elukka>oh yeah, this is how i remember seeing them
18:27<Eddi|zuHause>if not refitted to logs, they could be used like normal stake wagons
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18:30<Elukka>were the really short ones used as normal stake wagons too?
18:31<Elukka>hm. possibly not
18:31<Elukka>"Whereas Prussia held onto its short swivelling bolster cars for a long time, other railway administrations were quick to acquire longer vehicles. Bavaria put cars of class 337 into service as early as 1883, which had a wheelbase of 3650 mm. The advantage of these was that the cars could also be used individually. The DRG therefore added them all to its stock as Hw 'Regensburg'."
18:32<Elukka>i think the longer one will be better to draw first since it has more uses
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18:32<Elukka>something like that
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18:48<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that's about what i thought
18:49<Eddi|zuHause>but iirc we have 3 generations to play with :)
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19:22<CIA-6>OpenTTD: frosch * r23722 /trunk/src/window.cpp: -Change: Give the chat query window the same Z priority as the normal text query window.
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19:44<CIA-6>OpenTTD: yexo * r23723 /trunk/src/ (object_cmd.cpp water_cmd.cpp): -Codechange: speedup flood checks a bit
19:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: yexo * r23724 /trunk/src/ (5 files): -Codechange: split of the check to see if ambient sounds are enabled to a header file allowing compilers to inline that check
19:45<@Yexo>^^ with huge thanks to TrueBrain for the actual profiling part
19:46<TrueBrain>yw :D
19:47<TrueBrain>just compile before commit etc ;)
19:47<CIA-6>OpenTTD: yexo * r23725 /trunk/src/water_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r23723): compile before commit
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19:49<Aali>so uh, on my box, threaded drawing prevents the game from doing.. anything at all really
19:50<Aali>in r23721
19:50<TrueBrain>in 23721? As in, since that revision?
19:50<TrueBrain>or just a random one that fails?
19:50<Aali>it just sits there, waiting on the mutex
19:50<Aali>random one that fails
19:51<TrueBrain>k :)
19:51<TrueBrain>make a bug report I say?
19:51<TrueBrain>including OS, CPU, ..
19:52<Aali>not a known problem then? alright
19:52<TrueBrain>I think that would be a critical error if it was common :D
19:52<+glx>happens at game launch sometimes
19:52<TrueBrain>my reply would have been: see r<version> :D
19:52<TrueBrain>glx: 1 out of the 20 runs in MSVC Debug never starts for me
19:52<TrueBrain>never comes out of kernel initializing I believe
19:53<+glx>sometimes it deadlocks in MSVC for me
19:54<Aali>looking at the code, I dont see how it could ever work
19:55<Aali>it takes the mutex, creates the thread then waits for the signal
19:55<Aali>while the thread takes the mutex then signals
19:56<+michi_cc>WaitForSignal() automagically unlocks the mutex
19:56<Aali>ah yes of course it does
19:56<+michi_cc>and reacquires it upon return
19:56<Aali>I had seen that already
19:56<Aali>and then forgot it 5 minutes later
20:00<Eddi|zuHause>damnit... two days in a row i hit the forum-backup time...
20:03<Aali>okay, there it is, the draw thread is eating its own signal
20:04<Aali>a Sleep(0) in SendSignal is enough to make it run on my box but I dont think thats the proper way to fix that..
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20:13<+michi_cc>So which OS are you talking about?
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20:17<+michi_cc>Hmm, normally SetEvent should release all waiting threads (and the mutex does make sure the main thread is waiting). Nevertheless I wouldn't add a sleep into SendSignal, but maybe only directly into PaintWindowThread.
20:17<Aali>I'm thinking you should always prevent a thread from eating its own signal
20:17<Aali>no matter how its scheduled
20:18<Aali>the sleep is nothing more than a workaround
20:19<Aali>I'm not sure how it works on other OSes
20:19<TrueBrain>which OS?
20:19<TrueBrain>you already said
20:19<+michi_cc>Normally Send and Wait are done in different threads, only that initialization is different. Still, MS docs say that SetEvent should wake the waiting threads.
20:19<TrueBrain>on Linux I can see issues with some weird scheduler :P
20:19<TrueBrain>on Windows ... odd :)
20:19<TrueBrain>anyway, night for me :)
20:20<Aali>michi_cc: well, the other thread isn't waiting at that point
20:20<+michi_cc>It should :)
20:20<Aali>it gets stuck waiting for the draw thread to signal (later)
20:20<Aali>since the draw thread both sent a signal and then reset it all in one go
20:21<+michi_cc>If it is not already waiting, it's not SendEvent that is broken, but the thread initialization/creation.
20:21<+michi_cc>(the OpenTTD code I mean, not windows)
20:22<Aali>how could you make sure the main thread is waiting before starting the draw thread?
20:23<Aali>not saying you can't, I just dont see how
20:24<+michi_cc>Because the main thread acquires the mutex for creating the drawing thread, which waits for it to be released as the first instruction.
20:25<Aali>yeah but then the main thread releases the mutex before waiting
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20:26<+michi_cc>But that itself won't switch threads, but it's indeed is a race condition *only* if the time slice of the thread runs out exactly between releasing the mutex and the wait.
20:27<Aali>apparently its causing trouble
20:27<+michi_cc>We should use a condition variable for that, but these are only available starting with Vista.
20:27<Aali>I can reproduce it every time (so far)
20:28<+michi_cc>Then you have some very strange system, because this cause is *very* rare.
20:29<+michi_cc>And even a Sleep(0) isn't guaranteed to switch threads.
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20:33<Aali>to be fair, I only tried like 5 times
20:33<Aali>this is a debug build by the way
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20:44<Aali>release build works better, only happened once there
20:44<Aali>explains why there haven't been many complaints about this
20:45<+glx>debug builds are slower, easier to trigger race condition in this case
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20:49<Aali>shouldn't make that much of a difference here..
20:50<Aali>unless there's some wonderful misfeature that changes the behavior of critical sections in a debug build
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21:38<CIA-6>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r23726 /trunk/src/blitter/32bpp_anim.cpp: -Fix (r23670): Remove debugging code added accidentally
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22:54<Aali>is the autonightly server still operating?
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---Logclosed Tue Jan 03 00:00:46 2012