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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-01-03

---Logopened Tue Jan 03 00:00:46 2012
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00:08<ohnoes>hello everyone
00:14<MagisterQuis>ohnoes: Hi.
00:16<ohnoes>I was trying to build my first tunnel on openttd but my train refuses to cross it. I am using signals before and past the tunnel's railway in the direction I want the train to follow but right just when it approaches the tunnel entrance it stops and then tries to go in the opposite direction (it stops and reverses almost right after that because of the one-way block signal I placed, and this loops forever)
00:18<ohnoes>does anyway know why this is happenning?
00:20<Aali>wrong railtype?
00:21<ohnoes>wrong tunnel type! that is probably the problem
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00:46<ohnoes>by the way, is it normal that after a certain year trains of the most basic railtype (the one before electrified railtype) cannot be built anymore?
00:49<Elu>yeah, but you can turn off expiration dates somewhere in advanced settings
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00:58<ohnoes>Elu, thanks!
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04:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23727 /trunk/src/blitter/32bpp_anim.cpp:
04:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Codechange: speedup the 32bpp palette animation by reducing the amount of
04:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: compares. This is possible because the function is called with only 2 possible
04:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: conditions: from 0 to 255 (full palette update, 8bpp only) or from
04:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: PALETTE_ANIM_START to 255
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05:23<appe_>morning mr makerplanet.
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05:27<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23728 /trunk/src/company_cmd.cpp: -Fix [#FS4942-ish]: when cheating into another company, the SignList was not updated
05:50<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23729 /trunk/src/blitter/32bpp_anim.hpp: -Fix (r23670) [FS#4941]: if you increase the buffer size, also increase the bytes per pixel
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06:11<__ln__>good new year twothousandonetwo, Wolf01
06:11<Wolf01>to you too, __ln__
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06:34<Mazur>Oh, my lordy, lordy, lord....
06:35<Mazur>I just got 24" in the mail...
06:35<Mazur>I'll be gone for a bit to amuse myself with it, shortly.
06:36*__ln__ continues working with his dual-24" configuration at work
06:36<appe_>does anyone of you use C# alot?
06:39<appe_>im a complete newbie
06:39<@Yexo>I've used it a bit over the last few months
06:39<appe_>and im making an if statement
06:39<@peter1138>same as C/C++
06:39<appe_>and i need to search with a wildcard
06:39<@Yexo>search in what?
06:39<appe_>well, not search, really.
06:39<appe_>hold on.
06:40<@Yexo><appe_> im a complete newbie <- with C# or programming in general?
06:40<appe_>in general.
06:40<appe_>if (myReader["cust_ed3"].ToString() == "text")
06:40<appe_>that is the row of code i need to change. i didnt write that myself.
06:41<appe_>i want "text" to be something like *text*
06:41<@peter1138>something like *text*?
06:41<@Yexo>if (myReader["cust_ed3"].ToString().Contains("text")) {
06:41<appe_>ah, contains
06:41<appe_>ill try it :)
06:43<appe_>i have no experience what so ever in code
06:43<appe_>but this is fun
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07:05<vb>how to start a game with newgrf settings applied?
07:05<@Yexo>apply newgrf settings from main menu, start new game
07:05<vb>i did so, i only had some industries
07:05<vb>but no trains
07:06<vb>even though the newgrf was applied
07:06<@Yexo>upload your savegame somewhere
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07:08<vb>i think i know the issue
07:08<vb>i have ECS & FIRS original vehicle set, i think that is only for cargo
07:08<vb>to change it
07:08<@Yexo>no clue
07:08<@Yexo>if you want the default vehicles with refit options, try OpenGFX+
07:09<vb>i want new trains
07:09<@Yexo>in that case use a different trainset
07:09<@Yexo>every complete trainset I know can refit to the firs/ecs cargoes
07:09<vb>what is the best newgrf setting for a singleplayer game?
07:09<@Yexo>there is no single best setting
07:09<@Yexo>it all boils down to personal preferences
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07:13<vb>what trainset do you recommend?
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07:19<V453000>UKRS 3.04 <3
07:19<V453000>always good
07:20<V453000>it depends on what you want to play, try yourself :) discovering all the joys by yourself is best after all
07:20<vb>i only see version 2
07:20<V453000>UK Renewal Train Set might be the exact name
07:21<V453000>maybe without the Train
07:21<V453000>the UKRS2 is awesomely drawn but lacks some variety in compare to the 3.04
07:21<vb>found it
07:21<vb>should i also get the addon pack?
07:21<Ammler>best is if you load at least 50 newgrfs
07:22<V453000>or 64 right :p
07:22<@planetmaker>irony carries badly
07:22<vb>i have at least 461 hours of openttd played
07:22<Mazur>That way you get at least all the necessary NewGRF conflicts we want to know about.
07:23<V453000>I have about over 9000 millions hours of openttd player :p
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07:23<Mazur>I even have over 10 hours!
07:24<Ammler>vb: it could be fun to find your personal best newgrf yourself
07:24<V453000>exactly as Ammler says :)
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07:29<vb>what about AI?
07:29<V453000>none :)¨
07:29<vb>i want some competition :)
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07:32<Ammler>try MP
07:32<Ammler>or else, same with AI as with newgrfs, find it yourself :-P
07:34<@Yexo> has a table comparing some basic features
07:34<@Yexo>you'll still have to try some to see what works for you
07:35<@planetmaker>yes, either try out a few AIs in the game yourself. They really have different play styles and competitiveness is not always what counts
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07:53<Eddi|zuHause>*mental note* amarok's OSD will not display the correct title while i'm playing radio in kaffeine...
07:57<@peter1138>odd that
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08:33<__ln__>meanwhile in finland:
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08:57<Hirundo>I knocked together a patch to config static newgrfs via the GUI:
08:57<Hirundo>It's still WIP, before I continue I'd like some input on a few conceptual issues
08:59<Hirundo>How should static newgrfs and newgrf presets interact? Should presets set static newgrfs also? Should static and normal newgrfs be configured via a single preset, or is it best to split that? Or just keep presets for normal newgrfs only?
08:59<Eddi|zuHause>presets should be separate from static grfs
09:01<@planetmaker>Hirundo: presets should not care about static NewGRFs
09:01<Hirundo>So presets affect normal grfs only, and when the user is editing the static grf list, the preset buttons are disabled
09:01<@planetmaker>I'm not sure whether it's better to split static and non-static config.
09:01<@planetmaker>I'd first try it in the same window. With possibly differently coloured entries or a checkbox
09:01<@planetmaker>behind each newgrf
09:02<Hirundo>I currently made two tabs on the active newgrf list in the newgrf settings window
09:02<@planetmaker>ah, you made a separate tab. I'm fine either way
09:02<@planetmaker>it's less work that way, probably
09:03<Ammler>shouldn't openttd be able to detect "static" newgrfs?
09:04<Eddi|zuHause>different issue
09:04<Hirundo>It is able to test if a grf is safe for static usage
09:04<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: well, it would mean, you do not need any manual selection of it
09:05<Eddi|zuHause>yes, you do
09:05<@planetmaker>if a non-static newgrf tries to interact with a static newgrf, the static newgrf is disabled. And there's a static check in the newgrf loader
09:05<Eddi|zuHause>just because a grf can be static, doesn't mean you want it to be
09:05<Ammler>why not?
09:05<Eddi|zuHause>e.g. german signals grf
09:05<Eddi|zuHause>i wouldn't want that in a UKRS preset
09:06<@planetmaker>Ammler: it's much better if you can select the static newgrfs to use
09:06<@planetmaker>or you'd have ALL tree newgrfs. ALL signal newgrfs. And ALL landscape replacement sets
09:06<Ammler>s/better/easier/, of course
09:06<frosch123>if we transfer the newgrf settings to the "start new game" window, then static newgrfs would be moved to the "options"
09:07<frosch123>e.g. next to the basesets
09:07<frosch123>and not in the same window as newgrfs
09:07<Ammler>the advantage would be that you for example could also disable a static grf loaded on a mp server
09:08<frosch123>you cannot disable static grfs in a running game, you would have to do that before joining
09:08<Ammler>frosch123: yes, now, that's the point :-)
09:08<Eddi|zuHause>you cannot unload a grf if it is loaded non-statically by the server
09:08<Hirundo>That gets you into trouble if other non-static grfs depend on that static-but-non-statically-loaded newgrf
09:08<Eddi|zuHause>even if that grf could be static
09:09<Ammler>well, the question is is there need to load a static grf as non-static?
09:09<Eddi|zuHause>you can, however, make a static grf that counteracts the effects of the other non-static grf
09:09<frosch123>yes, if non-static grfs depend on static grfs
09:10<frosch123>afternoon terkhen :)
09:10<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: some canadian station grf checks for presence of the dutch catenary grf
09:10<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: at that point, dutch catenary cannot be static anymore
09:10<Eddi|zuHause>even if by itself it could
09:10<Ammler>ok, I see
09:12<Hirundo>Currently I'm thinking about doing a safety scan for all grfs during the file scan at startup, then filter the list of available grfs when the user is selecting static grfs
09:12<@planetmaker>Hirundo: that'd mean really reading the NewGRFs completely
09:13<Ammler>but the whole point about static grf is for MP, you agree?
09:13<Eddi|zuHause>the grfs must be read once for md5sum anyway
09:13<Hirundo>AFAIK, safety scan aborts at the first action0/3
09:13<@planetmaker>And: static yes/no can depend on the active NewGRF list (e.g. query for the static one)
09:13<Eddi|zuHause>as long as the result is cached...
09:13<@planetmaker>well. Startup is not exactly instant with many newgrfs
09:13<Hirundo>planetmaker: that part of the safety scan is executed only when starting a game, afaik
09:14<@planetmaker>I just wonder whether this scan should happen threaded in background
09:14<Ammler>so the only time, you need static grf is when you join a MP game
09:14<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: no
09:14<Ammler>why else?
09:14<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: static grfs also "survive" a preset change
09:14<Eddi|zuHause>(at least they should)
09:15<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: or loading a scenario
09:15<Ammler>ok, but that might not need to be static, that could be called "global" or so :-)I
09:15<Ammler>does not need to be static grfs only
09:15<Eddi|zuHause>just because you don't see the use-case, doesn't mean it doesn't exist
09:15<Ammler>but for MP, you can only use static grfs
09:16<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: yes, for scenarios only static grfs can be changed
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09:17<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: mäh, you discuss newbie scenario
09:17<Eddi|zuHause>i discuss scenarios for 99% of the user base
09:19<Ammler>you should talk for yourself :-P
09:19<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: i'm not in the target group for a static-newgrfs-gui
09:20<Hirundo>Editing config files and hard-coding grf locations and parameters can be intimidating for many :-)
09:21<Ammler>nobody does that anymore
09:21<Hirundo>If I'd want to load a static grf, I'd load it as normal grf, set parameters, close openttd and copy-paste in openttd.cfg
09:21<Hirundo>Not exactly a user-friendly process
09:22<Ammler>well, the use for static grfs was high as you had to configure newgrfs via cfg
09:22<Ammler>since there is the newgrf gui, most play with what they got
09:24<@planetmaker>which shows clearly that editing a cfg is... not user friendly. As at the same time the NewGRF usage skyrocketed since they could be configured ingame
09:29<Hirundo>So, having a GUI for static NewGRFs makes sense, assuming that static NewGRFs make sense in the first place
09:30<Ammler>the possiblity to add/remove grfs which don't affect gameplay on a running game makes sense
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09:31<Ammler>from my view the only usecase for it, as Eddi|zuHause mentioned, there could be another use case :-)
09:32<Hirundo>Are static newgrfs completely safe to add/remove even during a running game (w/o restart)?
09:33<Ammler>well, it depends how you handle those static grfs, which become non-static :-)
09:33<Hirundo>These are disabled
09:34<Ammler>but if you restart the game anyway, why do you need static grfs?
09:35<Hirundo>Currently you need to restart openttd to change static newgrfs
09:35<Ammler>he, don't think so
09:35<Ammler>or do you call joining a server a restart?
09:35<Hirundo>Does that change static newgrfs?
09:35<Ammler>of course
09:36<Hirundo>They are just applied (or not, if they turn out to be unsafe), not changed during a live game
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09:37<Ammler>you can join with different static configs
09:37<Ammler>the same game
09:38<Hirundo>but you cannot currently change the grfs with all other grfs already loaded, you just load a different config
09:39<Eddi|zuHause>which means you need to make a temporary save and reload it
09:39<Ammler>Hirundo: yes, but you do not restart the game
09:39<Hirundo>Currently you have to restart openttd, thereby clearing all in-memory stuff
09:40<Hirundo>Changing hot memory might or might not cause new problems, I don't know for sure
09:40<Ammler>yes, you might need to restart the client, but the game still runs on the server
09:40<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think you two are talking about the same thing :)
09:40<frosch123>Hirundo: adding static grfs requires to reload all grfs, i.e. means to reload a game resp. rejoin a game
09:41<Hirundo>frosch123: reload also in single player?
09:42<Hirundo>or is ReloadNewGRFData() enough?
09:42<Eddi|zuHause>is that he function that is run when clicking "apply newgrfs"?
09:43<frosch123>Hirundo: problem with the latter is that engine reliability is reset
09:44<frosch123>(well, the same happens on "apply newgrfs" or "reload_newgrfs")
09:44<frosch123>but for static newgrfs it is safe to not reset engines :p
09:45<Eddi|zuHause>that function could use a sandbox to check what actually changed
09:45<frosch123>yeah, one might only reset the engines of grfs which actually changed
09:45<frosch123>though that fails if the engines depend on other grfs being present :p
09:45<Eddi|zuHause>well, grf-order may have influence
09:46<Hirundo>And perhaps other random data except reliability
09:46<Eddi|zuHause>that's why a sandbox is needed
09:46<Eddi|zuHause>create new newgrf config -> compare available engines -> resetengines
09:46<Hirundo>frosch123: grfid checks on static grfs disable the static grf for that reason
09:47<frosch123>yes, thus it is safe to preserve reliability when changing static grfs, but not when changing other grfs
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09:48<Eddi|zuHause>but the sandbox would also cover cases where e.g. only station grfs were changed
09:49<Mazur>Ok, everybody line up next to eachother.
09:49<frosch123>hellion attack?
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09:49<Mazur>No, no need to scrunch up, use the space you want, I gots jme the pixels.
09:50*SpComb 1920x1200
09:50<SpComb>you're missing a few pixels off the bottom, it seems
09:50<SpComb>increase font size :)
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09:50<Mazur>Well, I did not have money for more.
09:50<BUTTMUNCH>ya i have, i also have the gui double thing
09:51*Mazur takes a dump on BM's face.
09:51<Mazur>Can you now see shit?
09:51<SpComb>no, it's just computer monitor manufacturers thinking that marketing video resolutions for computer displays is a good idea
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09:52<Eddi|zuHause>with the whole HDTV hype, suddenly computer monitors stopped developing
09:52<Eddi|zuHause>last time i searhced, it was really difficult to find monitors with higher resolutions
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09:53<Eddi|zuHause>it contradicts moore's law
09:53<BUTTMUNCH>it’ll change
09:53<BUTTMUNCH>very soon
09:53<BUTTMUNCH>in the next 2 years you’ll see better ppi monitors
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10:10<vb>how do i make towns smaller?
10:10<vb>when i start a new map
10:12<BUTTMUNCH>is there a clear reason why someone would timeout from my server every 5 minutes?
10:12<@planetmaker>bad connectivity
10:13<BUTTMUNCH>it’s not that
10:13<BUTTMUNCH>we run other games together and they run fine
10:13<BUTTMUNCH>for hours
10:13<+glx>crappy router
10:14<BUTTMUNCH>it’s not that
10:14<BUTTMUNCH>we run other games together and they run fine
10:14<BUTTMUNCH>for hours
10:14<vb>how do i make towns smaller? when i start a new game
10:14<@planetmaker>"my car got scratches and bumps" - "don't drive your Ferrari on a dirt road" - "But my LandRover works there for hours without a single dent"
10:15<@planetmaker>^^ see the similarity, BUTTMUNCH ?
10:15<BUTTMUNCH>in this case the ferrari is game 1
10:15<BUTTMUNCH>and the landrover is game 2
10:15<BUTTMUNCH>the road would be my router
10:15<+glx>not yours
10:15<@planetmaker>they use different protocols, different ports. Differently shaped traffic
10:16<BUTTMUNCH>i bet openttd uses traffic shaped like penises
10:16<BUTTMUNCH>my router is rather homophobic
10:16<@planetmaker>vb: set town sizes to small...
10:16<vb>i do
10:16<vb>i still have some of 2000+ population
10:16<vb>or actually i didn't
10:16<vb>how to set it?
10:17<vb>i also want even lower nr. of towns than very low
10:18<BUTTMUNCH>put it on custom
10:18<@planetmaker>then use the scenario editor to manually place towns
10:18<BUTTMUNCH>and fill in a nyumber to your liking
10:18<vb>what about size?
10:18<vb>where do i change that
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11:02<eberon>hi all, quick gameplay question
11:03<eberon>I've been playing this forever and I never figured this out: 'days in transit' for cargo -- that starts when a vehicle picks it up, right?
11:03<@planetmaker>iirc yes
11:03<eberon>as soon as it leaves the station to a vehicle? so as you wait 20 days for a full load the cargo is losing value?
11:04<eberon>I saw a lot of interesting and really useful graphs on the matter on the wiki and I was wondering if maybe my full-train-length full-load single train only system is not really that optimized
11:04<@planetmaker>yes... but full load makes sure you have good station rating which gives you more cargo delivered to the station in the first place
11:05<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23730 /trunk/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Add: Australian translation
11:05<@planetmaker>Australian? Nice
11:06<eberon>planetmaker: awesome, cool, that's what I thought.
11:07<andythenorth>needs a decent australian set :P
11:07<andythenorth>I'll bring trucks
11:08<andythenorth>where's pikka when you need him :D
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11:09<TrueBrain>where are short URLs when you want them :P
11:10<SpComb>most of that url is cruft, presumeably
11:10<__ln__>it's possible it got truncated
11:10<SpComb>probably just the ?q= bit would do
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11:13<andythenorth>^ they need quantum effects when queueing
11:13<andythenorth>also - note they're using drive-through roadstops, not drive-in ones
11:13<andythenorth>they're probably waiting for NewStations too
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11:36<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23731 /trunk/src/ (20 files in 8 dirs): -Add: add GSGoal::Question(), to ask a question to a(ll) company(ies). It can contain random text, and at most 3 buttons from a collection of 17
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12:05<TrueBrain>CargoDist still fails on the CF ..
12:05<TrueBrain>so sad
12:05<Eddi|zuHause>and what's wrong?
12:08-!-Netsplit <-> quits: Neon, TomyLobo, SpComb, glevans2, @planetmaker, dfox, Maarten_, MNIM, Prof_Frink, @DorpsGek, (+102 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them)
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12:12<Eddi|zuHause>so it only works for windows?
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13:42<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: yes, and they are not published because the compilation fails for most targets :)
13:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: translators * r23732 /trunk/src/lang/ (13 files): (log message trimmed)
13:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: bulgarian - 7 changes by kokobongo
13:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: croatian - 3 changes by VoyagerOne
13:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: dutch - 20 changes by Yexo
13:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: english_US - 20 changes by Rubidium
13:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: finnish - 22 changes by jpx_
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14:10<alluke>is there a way to disable the yellow ottd mouse
14:11<alluke>this huge mp game is lagging my ass off and the mouse does so too making building anyhing impossible
14:11<@Alberth>use a smaller map?
14:11<Eddi|zuHause>and what would using the system mouse solve?
14:12<@Alberth>buying a faster computer helps more though
14:12<@Yexo>alluke: buy a faster computer or use a smaller map with less vehicles
14:12<@Yexo>most of all: don't use any newgrfs or AIs
14:18<alluke>the map aint mine...
14:18<alluke>and my computer is fast enough
14:18<alluke>and its multiplayer
14:18<alluke>in sp it should work
14:19<alluke>id prefer my own back mouse anyway
14:19<Eddi|zuHause>so again, why is this the mouse pointer's fault?
14:19<alluke>it lags with the rest
14:19<alluke>my own mouse wouldnt
14:19<Rubidium>it's just a single line of code to give you your little black mouse
14:19<Rubidium>and probably a hell of a lot more to get the other one not there anymore
14:19<alluke>i could jsut let the background lag and build stuff like before
14:20<Eddi|zuHause>hiding the other game pointer can be done with a static grf
14:20<alluke>now wheres this little treasure
14:20<Eddi|zuHause>you'll have to make one yourself
14:21<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23733 /trunk/src/ (cheat_gui.cpp cheat_type.h lang/english.txt): -Fix-ish [FS#4939]: cheating to different climates messes things even more up than changing NewGRFs in-game... so guess what happened
14:21<@Yexo>and by hiding it you wouldn't stop it from functioning
14:22<alluke>once there was a bug that put my original mouse above the game pointer
14:22<alluke>sooooo smooooooth
14:22<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23734 /trunk/src/lang/ (51 files in 2 dirs): -Cleanup: remove the translated strings as well
14:22<Eddi|zuHause>alluke: i still think you should rather be solving the actual problem, not doctoring some weird symptoms
14:23<alluke>mm ye
14:24<Eddi|zuHause>alluke: anyway, you need to modify the ClaimMousePointer() function of your video driver and compile, to get the system pointer drawn
14:24<Ammler>isn't there a option to disable the mouse pointer or was that something in TTDP?
14:24<Eddi|zuHause>and replace the game sprites with transparent ones
14:25<Ammler>or maybe completely another game I have in mind :-)
14:25<Eddi|zuHause>probably that :p
14:27<Eddi|zuHause>backgammon is a weird game
14:28<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause is thinking of Dice Wars
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14:33<andythenorth>oh he's gone
14:33<andythenorth>probably not a Dice Wars fan
14:35<Eddi|zuHause>dice wars is the one where you capture countries?
14:36<frosch123>that's risk
14:37<Eddi|zuHause>well, not exactly :)
14:38<Eddi|zuHause>and in risk you "free" countries, because "capture" is too militaristic :p
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15:13<frosch123>Xaroth: why are you not running beta1 ? :p
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15:26<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23735 /trunk/src/ (71 files in 7 dirs): -Codechange: remove ~50 includes from headers that weren't needed
15:27<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds like breaking a number of patches :)
15:28<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23736 /trunk/src/window_type.h: -Document: document correctly that WC_GOAL_QUESTION has a WindowNumber which is identical to the uniqueid given by the GameScript
15:29<Zuu>What happens if you choose a uniqueid that is identical to another window class?
15:30<Rubidium>class != number
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15:30<Zuu>oh, you are right. I read to quick.
15:32<Rubidium>woohoooooo... I've taught andythenorth to be cryptic ;)
15:32<Rubidium>well done my padawan ;)
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>imho all the diagonal roads, highways, etc. stuff could be done with "traffic objects" on top of the airport statemachines
15:34<Eddi|zuHause>i.e. the newgrf will provide a (non-square?) area, a statemachine for vehicle movement, and a follow-track callback for the pathfinder
15:35<Eddi|zuHause>as a side-feature we need a way to specify drag-able objects
15:37<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23737 /trunk/src/ (97 files in 7 dirs): -Fix: fix the svn:properties of a few files that got added lately
15:38<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23738 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 4 dirs): -Fix (r23731): forgot to sync the new window with the script API
15:40*Rubidium smells misalignment in script_window.hpp
15:40<Rubidium>looks that way in the svn viewer
15:41<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23739 /trunk/src/script/api/script_window.hpp: -Fix (r23738): owh vim, when can you learn to copy/paste tabs correctly?
15:43<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I shall await your patch :D
15:44<andythenorth>TrueBrain your solution cheats :P
15:44<TrueBrain>andythenorth: you didnt mention non-cheating-solutions :D
15:44<andythenorth>you lose a lot of tile on one side to...'empty' :P
15:44<andythenorth>big sidewalks?
15:44<TrueBrain>I got this screenshot from one of the threads I linked
15:45<TrueBrain>I tihnk it is edited in a paint application
15:45<Zuu>andythenorth: Same amount is lost also for diagonal rails.
15:46<TrueBrain>90 degree turns on road .. now THAT would be funny to see
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15:47<Zuu>Is't that what we got in trunk?
15:47<TrueBrain>the other 90 degrees darling
15:49<andythenorth>Zuu: town buildings don't try to build along diagonal rails in the same way ;)
15:49<andythenorth>lots of small triangular parks?
15:49<TrueBrain>lots of uglyness? :)
15:52<Elukka>diagonal roads in a similarly tile based game
15:52<Elukka>just need some graphics to fill in the space
15:53<andythenorth>2 part diagonal buildings, with extended bounding box!?!?! :)
15:53<Zuu>Actually, if there is enough bits, I think the diagonal roads of the image that TrueBrain posted could be just one lane to address the issue of them being narrow.
15:54<TrueBrain>one lane diagonal would look better :P
15:54<TrueBrain>but in the end, diagonal road is just a waste of tiles :)
15:54<frosch123>did someone already make a mockup how 4 roadvehicles would fit onto a single tile?
15:55<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: that should be easy. a vehicle is 8px wide, a tile is 64px wide... plenty of room
15:56*andythenorth will pay €500 for diagonal roads
15:57<Elukka>i think diagonal roads would be very useful in the countryside, not so much inside towns
15:57<Eddi|zuHause>the more important aspect is imho smoother curves (with less severe speed limits)
15:58<TrueBrain>I can get more if you like :D
15:58<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: yes, we're in dire need of clothoids ;)
15:59<Elukka>comedy suggestion: smooth rail curves
15:59<Elukka>CETS would have sufficient sprite angles!
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15:59<@Yexo>TrueBrain: 4RV on one tile is much more trivial then your image leads to believe
15:59<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: i have an idea, but it needs more varaction2-variables for railtpyes...
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16:00<TrueBrain>Yexo: I know :D
16:00<@Yexo>one RV is only half a tile long
16:00<TrueBrain>briliant isnt it? :)
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16:00<Aali>is the autonightly server still operating?
16:00<TrueBrain>Yexo: you do know you can even fit 100 RVs on a single tile, right? :)
16:00<@Yexo>TrueBrain: by disabling queuing?
16:00<TrueBrain>Yexo: by using my tile
16:00<Eddi|zuHause>with quantum effects :)
16:00<Elukka>really small wagons are kinda weird to draw
16:00<TrueBrain>queing is pretty much broken :)
16:01<Rubidium>Aali: what/which autonightly server?
16:01<Zuu>Aali: I haven't seen dihedral lately.
16:01<Aali>Rubidium: dihedrals
16:01<Aali>I see
16:01<Aali>website is down and I dont remember the address
16:01<Aali>guess its dead
16:02<TrueBrain>Yexo: RV queue only checks what is in the direction of the vehicle
16:02<Zuu>He is here in the channel though.
16:02<TrueBrain>which kinda fails when they are turning
16:02<TrueBrain>and they just merge into eachother
16:02<Eddi|zuHause>last i heard of dihedral was "i need a new job" :p
16:02<andythenorth>Elukka: that's not small :)
16:02<Zuu>@seen dihedral
16:02<@DorpsGek>Zuu: dihedral was last seen in #openttd 4 days, 11 hours, 1 minute, and 49 seconds ago: <dihedral> it is 6am in YOUR timezone
16:02<TrueBrain>so just run 100 RVs on a tile like mine, and they merge sooner or later into 1 smooth collision :)
16:02<Elukka>well you're better at drawing them :P
16:02<Elukka>where it gets really odd is when it's wider than it's long on the 45 deg view
16:04<Eddi|zuHause>that should only be for 3lu wagons
16:05<Elukka>the shorter variant of this wagon will look odd unloaded
16:05<Elukka>two tiny 3 lu wagons separated by long empty space and a coupling bar
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16:16<Xaroth>frosch123: because it's not a custom compile?
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16:20<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: traffic object newgrfs?
16:21<andythenorth>is there a spec? :D :P
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>there will be a spec, if you follow the steps i laid out :p
16:24<andythenorth>so a traffic object can handle multiple vehicle types?
16:25<andythenorth>can a traffic object tile control vehicle speed?
16:25<Eddi|zuHause>openttd currently contains one hardcoded traffic object: the lock
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16:26<andythenorth>can a traffic object count the number of vehicles on the tile? Can it have registers?
16:26*andythenorth plots pipelines
16:27<Eddi|zuHause>a traffic object can do the same thing airports can do
16:29<@Yexo>openttd will get incredible slow if you try to use that for diagonal roads
16:30-!-Adambean [] has quit [Quit: Gone fishing]
16:31<TrueBrain>even slower?! :D
16:31<Eddi|zuHause>pathfinder callback may be evil
16:31-!-JVassie [~James@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:32<Eddi|zuHause>and lots of details are missing
16:32<andythenorth>Yexo: it's fine - TB will optimise it :)
16:32<andythenorth>just have to get him sick again
16:32<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23740 /trunk/src/ (153 files in 10 dirs): -Codechange: remove some 300 unneeded includes from the .cpp files
16:33<@Yexo>andythenorth: one of the conclusions from all the profiling: newgrfs make things slow, but that can't be optimized away
16:33<Xaroth>153 files? :O
16:33<TrueBrain>no worries; we have scripts :P
16:33<@Yexo>just following the spec means quite some code has to be executed
16:34<andythenorth>change the spec
16:35<@Yexo>doesn't help
16:35<andythenorth>reimplement everything
16:35<andythenorth>in xml
16:35<Rubidium>could be done, together with xsl ;)
16:35<@Yexo>the code already is quite fast for what is does, but any kind of "scripting" (which is what newgrfs are) will always be "slow" compared to native code
16:36<andythenorth>the good news - changing the topic - is that I have this book:
16:37<iddqd>when creating a new level (through game/gui) there are a bunch of options like size of map etc. When I start my dedi server, it does not start with the settings I picked in the game.
16:37<iddqd>openttd.cfg is this the file I can find all the options in?
16:37<andythenorth>the internet is quite short of good information
16:37<andythenorth>at least wrt trucks
16:37<andythenorth>books for the win
16:38<Eddi|zuHause>iddqd: yes, but you can also create a game in singleplayer, save it, and load it onto the server
16:38<iddqd>ah of course right
16:38<iddqd>i’ll do that
16:42<TrueBrain>This may come to you as a surprise since we have not met before.I have
16:42<TrueBrain>made a deep and careful findings and reseach before contacting you and
16:42<TrueBrain>believe you are related to this person. Can i please seek your consent
16:42<TrueBrain>to present you to the bank as next of kin to our deceased costomer?
16:43<andythenorth>TrueBrain: ok, fine by me
16:43<andythenorth>how much do you need?
16:43<Eddi|zuHause>i never get this kind of entertainment :(
16:43<iddqd>paypal: gibemonieplox@gmail.comv
16:43<TrueBrain>andythenorth: 500 euros :P
16:45<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: i can also forward you some contacts to russian/ukrainian girls from time to time, if you are interested
16:45<andythenorth>You've been personally selected to
16:45<andythenorth>receive access to this $1,407/a day
16:45<andythenorth>software for no charge!
16:45<andythenorth>Access here to access your exclusive download:
16:47<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23741 /trunk/src/ (5 files): -Revert (r23740): the few parts that the Windows / non-network compiles stumble on
16:47<Eddi|zuHause>pffft :p
16:47*andythenorth has failed to make BANDIT :[
16:48<frosch123>start ROBBER instead?
16:49<andythenorth>what is it? A traffic objects grf?
16:49<Guest22511>frosch123: :D
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16:50<frosch123>andythenorth: might be
16:51*andythenorth concludes that trucks were rubbish before about 1940
16:51<andythenorth>mostly <10t capacity
16:52<frosch123>the same holds for rail wagons, doesn't it?
16:52<Eddi|zuHause>you have trams before that :)
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16:52<andythenorth>frosch123: dunno if you noticed, you can have more than one wagon per train ;)
16:52<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: rail wagons of ~1900 typically have 15t capacity
16:54-!-enr1x [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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16:58<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23742 /trunk/src/cmd_helper.h: -Revert (r23735): for some reason gcc-trunk is more picky than basically everything else :(
16:58*andythenorth somewhat overlooks RL weights
17:00<andythenorth>bed time
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17:04<CIA-6>OpenTTD: frosch * r23743 /trunk/src/vehicle_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#4906]: Call CB 15E for all vehicles before actually executing any refit.
17:08<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: Why do I have the feeling that your railtype curve idea is similar to what I had as an idea? :)
17:09<Eddi|zuHause>my idea isn't exactly new...
17:09<+michi_cc>It's not very hard code-wise if you limit the smooth part to half the track length on each tile.
17:10<Eddi|zuHause>but you need to construct the sprite of two parts
17:10<Eddi|zuHause>or more
17:11<Eddi|zuHause>and you need to cache the sprite in the tile, otherwise the varaction2 evaluation takes too long for each draw
17:11<+michi_cc>The main blocker why I didn't code anything is that a) there are several ways to provide the needed info to the NewGRF, and I don't know which is the best because b) I utterly failed at trying to draw even one smooth curve, so I don't know how an artist would draw best.
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17:17<Eddi|zuHause>while speaking about railtypes: can i have a coord-variable so i can do (x+y)%4-style sprite variation?
17:17<Eddi|zuHause>(similar to how catenary pylons are placed)
17:18<@planetmaker>when railtypes were implemented that was explicitly decided to not supply
17:19<@planetmaker>on grounds of possible performance impact
17:19<Eddi|zuHause>and i always disputed that claim on grounds of the catenary code doing the same calculations
17:20<@Terkhen>good night
17:20<@planetmaker>I mean... many things are possible. And arguabley things like townzone would be an interesting thing, too
17:21<@planetmaker>for example in order to provide different fences then
17:22<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: you have though a tile-coordinate variable via the two pseudo-random bits
17:23<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: but it's a pseudo-randomized variable, not a regular one
17:23<@planetmaker>it's the least significant bits of the coordinate
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17:25<Rubidium>it's the (x+y)%4-ish code that's used for trees
17:25<Rubidium>but seemingly slightly more random so you don't easily see that it's repeating every 4 tiles
17:25<+michi_cc>I know we didn't implement it, but I don't think the performance impact would be that big. Catenary code is ridiculously expensive for small visual reasons (drawing a single catenary sprite will look at *13* map tiles), and still nobody noticed a slowdown from that.
17:27<Rubidium>I think it was "land info of nearby tiles" that got dismissed
17:27<+michi_cc>(24 tile accesses actually, but only 13 unique tiles)
17:35<Eddi|zuHause>for curvy rails i only need the 4 adjacent tiles, with some bitstuffing
17:35<@planetmaker>actually writing a patch, Eddi|zuHause? ;-)
17:36<Eddi|zuHause>and the (x+y)%4 i need to place a km-stone every 2 tiles
17:36<CIA-6>OpenTTD: frosch * r23744 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r23142) [FS#4923]: Check the version of the right GRF.
17:37<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: that's so unreal...
17:37<Eddi|zuHause>DB places a plate every 200m
17:37<Rubidium>then if I move my rail around a (new) station the kms would change
17:38<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: if only those 200m would be really 200m...
17:38<Rubidium>they're mostly on catenary masts, which are 70m apart
17:38<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but the exact offset to the real 200m is written on the plate
17:38<Rubidium>also... 200m "track kilometers" can easily be 300m in the real world
17:39<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: Why 4? If each track bit is overlaid separately you only need the two tiles at each end.
17:40<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: i mean 4 for the whole tile, not each trackbit
17:40<iddqd>after each savegame my buddy timeouts
17:40<iddqd>is there a console command that lets one timeout longer
17:41<Eddi|zuHause>opposing to "land info of nearby tiles", which smells like potentially a 32x32 area
17:41<Eddi|zuHause>iddqd: the timeout is 4 game days (ca. 10 seconds)
17:41<iddqd>can i increase that time?
17:41<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: I'm not sure drawing each tile as one sprite would make sense, that's a lot of sprites the NewGRF would need to provide.
17:41<iddqd>to let’s say 25 seconds
17:41<Eddi|zuHause>iddqd: only way around that is to disable autosave, or pause the game during that time
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17:42<Eddi|zuHause>iddqd: i think the timeout is hardcoded
17:44<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: Can you make a scheme how you'd select the proper sprite for each tile/track bit?
17:48<+michi_cc>Ideally that scheme would select different sprite sheets with the same layout as currently (i.e. )
17:49<@peter1138>idspispopd :S
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17:52<iddqd>no cheating please
17:52<iddqd>only me
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17:58<+michi_cc>Actually, you'd always need overlay tracks for PBS reservations, so it would make sense to keep the current overlay method for junction tiles.
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18:08<CIA-6>OpenTTD: frosch * r23745 /trunk/src/vehicle_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r23087): If autorefit fails, count the vehicle capacity nevertheless, if it is already carrying the right thing.
18:09<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23746 /trunk/src/ (ai/ai_core.cpp game/game_core.cpp): -Fix: also set 'info' to NULL if 'instance' dies (for both AI and GS); avoids invalid memory reads
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18:13<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23747 /trunk/src/game/game_core.cpp: -Fix (r23746): forgot one more case
18:15<frosch123>refit orders with cargo subtypes are a misfeature :(
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18:17<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: if we could select the sprite on a half-track basis, it could be a 2-step decision like this: for "full" trackbits and switches etc., some combinatorial stuff is needed (means larger switches, not more steps)
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18:20<Eddi|zuHause>(there's some potentially evil exponentiation there for the number of sprites needed)
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18:25<+michi_cc>Indeed, it's quite a lot of sprites, but not that many to be unmanageable.
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18:53<CIA-6>OpenTTD: frosch * r23748 /trunk/src/newgrf_engine.cpp: -Fix: Make vehicle variables A8 and A9 always return 0. Returning cur_image is a potential desyncer due to Action1 in static NewGRFs.
18:54<@Yexo>ah! you finally found a good reason to remove it :)
18:55<frosch123>i wonder whether someone used it as pseudo random value :p
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19:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r23749 /trunk/src/video/win32_v.cpp: -Fix: [Win32] Work around a possible deadlock when initialising threaded drawing.
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---Logclosed Wed Jan 04 00:00:47 2012