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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-01-05

---Logopened Thu Jan 05 00:00:03 2012
---Daychanged Thu Jan 05 2012
00:00<Eddi|zuHause>you have length source?
00:00<encoded>or atleast multi lane roads
00:01<Elukka>http://www.brawa.de/en/products/h0/wagons/freight-cars/47712-kbaystsb.html#
00:01<Elukka>the 'info about the original' tab talks about the length of the real wagons
00:01<Elukka>well, the wheelbase
00:01<Eddi|zuHause>wheelbase != length
00:02<encoded>and a federal goverment to build them
00:02<Elukka>yeah, i know
00:03<Elukka>the length is based on the length of the model which jives with the real vehicle's wheelbase visually
00:03<Elukka>the big difference to the shorter ones is they seem to be coupled to each other conventionally, not by a long drawbar
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00:05<Eddi|zuHause>i noted 9300mm for the second Ep I wagon, and 9450mm for the Ep II one
00:05<Eddi|zuHause>i'll put 8999 for now, that'll round down to length 4
00:06<Eddi|zuHause>may be better this way
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00:08<Elukka>one of the bavarian wagons according to the model's dimensions is 8465 mm
00:12<Elukka>out of curiosity, what exactly do the goods wagons class districts mean?
00:12<Elukka>does it have something to do with where they were originally used, build, or what?
00:17<Eddi|zuHause>no, they're just randomly chosen city names, to group similar wagon types
00:18<Elukka>i see
00:18<Elukka>well, it's more descriptive than Ghmglls 37 or something
00:27<Eddi|zuHause>so, pushed now, grf should be available shortly
00:29<Elukka>cool
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00:35<Elukka>hmm.
00:36<Elukka>high capacity hopper cars for coal and ore transport appeared some time in the 20's, but smaller, conventional high side wagons were used for the same purpose for a long time
00:36<Elukka>i dunno if there can be any gameplay use for the latter once the hoppers appear
00:36<Elukka>dbset handles it by simply not having any of the early high capacity hoppers
00:37<Eddi|zuHause>you worry about the drawing, i worry about the gameplay :)
00:37<Elukka>heh
00:38<Eddi|zuHause>the hoppers may not be refitable to all cargos the open wagons are
00:40<Elukka>there's another such oddity in dbset: streamlined br06's all over because they're simply the best passenger locomotive for a long time
00:41<Elukka>some factors just don't translate to game terms
00:41<Eddi|zuHause>i rarely use it, actually
00:42<Elukka>i think rare or unique vehicles like it should have some downside in game
00:43<Elukka>heh. i remember in railroad tycoon 2 the pennsylvania GG1 obsoleted everything else for a very long time
00:44<Elukka>hm. i should try drawing a locomotive for a change some time
00:45<Elukka>though i guess oberhümer's got most of that covered
00:47<Eddi|zuHause>we're not running out of engines to draw anytime soon :p
00:49<Elukka>yeah, but we already have a playable set of era I engines but wagons are extremely lacking
00:49<Elukka>(because i'm lazy)
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01:14<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23753 /trunk/src/lang/english.txt: -Fix [FS#4952]: use plurals for the infrastructure stats
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07:52<TrueBrain>sstttt
07:57<murr4y>breakdown?
08:04<TrueBrain>I was sick of the pages of purple text in my window :P
08:14<Rubidium>what purple? It's all green ;)
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08:15<__ln__>you're confusing green with cyan
08:15<TrueBrain>Rubidium: I dunno why you would be watching in my window, but I also wonder why you think it would be green :D
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08:17<Wolf01>hello o/
08:17<TrueBrain>hello mister Wolf01
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08:23<TrueBrain>indexed RGBA .. now that would be mindblowing :D
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08:53<BUTTMUNCH>what is an average end game income?
08:54<Aali>positive infinity
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08:57<BUTTMUNCH>im now making my own airports with funded towns around them
08:57<frosch123>BUTTMUNCH: about factor 10 to 20 between train income and train running cost
08:58<frosch123>the rest matters on map size, industry count etc
08:58<frosch123>and inflation of course :)
08:59<frosch123>hmm, actually factor 10 to 20 only holds if you use only normal rail vehicles (no maglev etc) and no insane train lengths (> 10 tiles)
08:59<BUTTMUNCH>how does that work anyway
08:59<BUTTMUNCH>stations can’t be longer than 7 tiles
08:59<BUTTMUNCH>atleast I tried
08:59<BUTTMUNCH>i set trains to 14 long
08:59<BUTTMUNCH>but i can’t build stations longer than that
08:59<frosch123>you can make stations up to 64x64
08:59<BUTTMUNCH>hrm
09:00<BUTTMUNCH>how would iachieve this?
09:00<frosch123>there are a lot of poor kids who play on complete flat maps, build 64 lines in parallel to run 32 trains on them or so
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09:00<frosch123>go to advanced settings, increse max station spread to 64, and use drag&drop to build the station
09:00<frosch123>resp. build it from multiple parts
09:01<BUTTMUNCH>i flattened a piece of land and made my own place
09:02<BUTTMUNCH>http://i41.tinypic.com/2u9lvs8.png look at this bad boy
09:02<BUTTMUNCH>rofl
09:03<BUTTMUNCH>i have 2 of those one in left bottom corner, other one in top right corner
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09:59*Hirundo ponders changing static grfs during the game
10:00<Hirundo>It'd make most sense if changes would affect both new games and the current game
10:02<frosch123>same as basesets :)
10:02<frosch123>except you cannot change basesets inside game either
10:03<frosch123>you have to go back to main menu first
10:04<Hirundo>Currently you can edit (assuming you have the required privileges) static newgrfs already in-game
10:04<Hirundo>Removing that capability would make no sense
10:05<frosch123>how do you do that?
10:05<frosch123>reload config or something like that?
10:05<Hirundo>Currently they are just in the same list
10:05<Hirundo>You can edit static grfs in-game, but upon reloading changes are lost
10:05<frosch123>you can remove them, but not add?
10:06<Hirundo>And adding grfs as static is indeed not possible
10:06<frosch123>resp. aren't the even added to the save when applying? :o
10:06<Hirundo>All added grfs are non-static
10:06<Hirundo>Simply because the GUI doesn't have the 'add as static' button (yet?)
10:07<frosch123>displaying them in the same list has always been weird, since you can change the order, but it is not saved
10:07<Hirundo>Indeed
10:07<Hirundo>Perhaps I should file a bug report about it ;-)
10:08<Hirundo>Basic issue is that _grfconfig_static contains a list of static grfs used for new games
10:08<Hirundo>_grfconfig also contains static grfs during a game
10:08<frosch123>personally i would put static grf configuration into the game options, next to the basesets
10:08<Hirundo>but these lists may or may not match
10:08<frosch123>and not disaply them in the same list
10:09<frosch123>afaik there is some STATIC flag in the grfconfig
10:09<frosch123>if it is loaded as static
10:09<Hirundo>Yes indeed
10:09<frosch123>so they could be filtered from the list in the gui
10:09<frosch123>(would be my fix to the bug report ^^ :p)
10:10<Hirundo>If a grf is loaded as static and non-static, the static grf is removed
10:10<Hirundo>so saving the list of static grfs in a game back to _grfconfig_static has problems
10:11<frosch123>well, you would have to edit _grfconfig_static directly
10:11<Hirundo>on the other hand, showing the list in _grfconfig_static during a game doesn't allow any errors to be displayed
10:11<frosch123>no matter whether some of them are removed
10:11<frosch123>(removed from the game, not from _grfconfig_static)
10:12<frosch123>hmm... errors
10:12<Hirundo>If an error occurs when loading a static grf, you'd want to show that
10:12<frosch123>ideally they should also display an error if they were removed for some reason
10:13<Hirundo>so perhaps, double grfs should get some other treatment instead of removing them
10:14<Hirundo>i.e. setting some flag that causes them to not be processed during grf loading
10:17<Remi_Woler>is it expected behavior that in the "almost current" trunk (nightly from 3 days ago), you can no longer see the signs from opponents?
10:18<Remi_Woler>Not in the list, nor in the world
10:18<frosch123>there is a setting to hide them
10:18<frosch123>no idea about the default :)
10:18<Remi_Woler>found it, under transparency. That's new, I think
10:18<Remi_Woler>thanks :)
10:18<TrueBrain>seens by the reports, I would say default is off frosch123 ;)
10:19<frosch123>maybe :p and yes, it is new in 1.2
10:20<Remi_Woler>I *just* taught my human competitor to place a sign if a train "won't move" again, and then the signs get hidden :P
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10:32<Ammler>hmm, a little bit windy here
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11:40<Elukka>interesting. in newer nightlies (possibly ever since EZ), the 32 bit simple blitter is a lot slower when zooming or scrolling around the map
11:40<Elukka>i had it on because i had messed around with 32 bit stuff at some point and it didn't make a difference in normal play so i couldn't be bothered to turn it off, but now it sure does
11:41<Eddi|zuHause>use optimized or animated
11:42<Rubidium>simple has never been fast, nor will it ever be fast
11:42<Rubidium>it's basically the most trivial implementation
11:43<Elukka>i see
11:44<Elukka>eddi, the new express wagons have the same issue as the compartment coaches where in the - view they have a 2 px gap rather than 1
11:45<Eddi|zuHause>right... i wanted to investigate that
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11:48<Elukka>hmm. the langholzwagen could maybe use a slight gap on the diagonals
11:49<welshdragon>Good Afternoon/Evening/Morning All
11:52<welshdragon>perhaps a slightly repetitive question (one I have asked before I think) but can saves from a patched build of OpenTTD be hacked into another patched version (say from IS2.1.1 to Chill's)?
11:53<welshdragon>else I'm going to have a lot of repetition on my hands...
11:53<Rubidium>welshdragon: I see no reason why they can't be
11:54<Rubidium>assuming *YOU* come up with the logic for handing that properly
11:54<welshdragon>I get 'unexpexted end of chunk' at the moment
11:55<Eddi|zuHause>welshdragon: you need to add a lot of magic in settings.ini and afterload.cpp
11:55<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: i think i spotted the error, care to test?
11:55<Elukka>sure
11:57<welshdragon>'chunks' is kind of a weird term to use for a file :p
11:57<welshdragon>unless 'm making a mistake eher
11:58<Eddi|zuHause>welshdragon: a riff file is made of chunks
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12:08<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23754 /trunk/src/network/network_udp.cpp: -Fix (r23752): the locks aren't reentrant
12:09<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: binary now available at the devzone
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12:40<Elukka>looks right to me now
12:41<Eddi|zuHause>great
12:41<Elukka>various combinations draw correctly too
12:43<Elukka>i wonder if there'd be some way to improve the looks of the wheels on steam locomotives
12:43<Elukka>they look kinda odd to me currently
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12:46<Elukka>specifically the light grey
12:47<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, i'm not really convinced about those either
12:47<Eddi|zuHause>especially in / and \ view
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13:18<Elukka>http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/Art%20and%20stuff/cets.png
13:19<Wolf01>nice, but looks derailed
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13:22<Eddi|zuHause>no wonder when there's a corner in the rails...
13:22<+michi_cc>Elukka: In my personal, totally subjective view I like it better when the carriages are visually more distinct. In the - view this is quite well done, bit IMHO the diagonal view could have a little more contrast there.
13:23<Wolf01>so bend the rails too ;)
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13:26<@Terkhen>hello
13:27<Wolf01>hello Terkhen
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13:29<Elukka>bending the rails too is some kind of holy grail, isn't it :P
13:30<Elukka>i did have some contrast issues, and i made the windows on the diagonal brighter than they 'should' be, but i'm not sure what more to do
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13:31<Elukka>one possibility is making everything a notch brighter than they ought to be, which dbset and probably others do
13:31<Elukka>that way you have more colors
13:31<Elukka>that don't contrast each other too much
13:31<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: he means something that distinguishes one wagon from the other, like making the ends darker
13:31<Elukka>hmm
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13:35<Elukka>well, that'd involve either making them black (same color as the gangways which are pretty narrow) or actually brighter
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13:35<Elukka>a darker green would just blend them in more
13:36<Eddi|zuHause>just the end sections, not the sides
13:38<Elukka>yeah i was talking about them
13:40<Elukka>darker would make the ends either practically the same color and the sides, or near black (no green darker than that)
13:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: translators * r23755 /trunk/src/lang/ (9 files): (log message trimmed)
13:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: croatian - 3 changes by VoyagerOne
13:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: english_US - 5 changes by Rubidium
13:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: finnish - 5 changes by jpx_
13:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: lithuanian - 32 changes by Devastator
13:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: norwegian_bokmal - 8 changes by eloekset
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13:57<Zuu>Doh, tried to max out the non-custom settings that affect number of towns just to figure out that I had by mistake made a 2048x1024 and not a 2048x2048 map. So I had to re-run my test again. But now while writing this, it finished after some 29510 ticks :-)
13:58<Remi_Woler>Zuu: purely out of curiousity: how do you test it? Like with what technology?
13:59<Zuu>I record the result from GSController.GetTick() before setup start and then when setup is done. Print the difference.
13:59<Eddi|zuHause>Zuu: make sure your town name generator has enough names
14:00<Zuu>Eddi|zuHause: Does that limit the amount of towns created?
14:00<Eddi|zuHause>yes
14:00<Eddi|zuHause>if it runs out of names, no further towns will get generated
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14:02<Zuu>Hmm, I think I got about 400 towns or so.
14:02<Zuu>No idea how to see the town amount other than dividing the world population with the estimated average.
14:02<Zuu>or by making an AI/GS output it.
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14:12<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, that's really a "missing feature" on the town list
14:13<Eddi|zuHause>but you can easily get like 3000 towns
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14:16<welshdragon>So, can I debug saves?
14:17<@Yexo>please ask your real question
14:20<welshdragon>I want to find out where OpenTTD doesn't like the chunk size, Having defaulted the save back to vanilla settings it still complains about 'unexpected end of chunk'
14:20<welshdragon>which is why I want to debug
14:24<@Alberth>set a breakpoint at the line that reports the error?
14:26<Rubidium>-dsdl=9 and see the chunks being loaded
14:26<@Alberth>there seems to be a 'sl' debug setting as well (openttd -d sl=9)
14:26<TrueBrain>sdl? Guess that is a typo?
14:28<Rubidium>yeah, I like making typos
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14:28<TrueBrain>I like making pies!
14:28<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23756 /trunk/src/lang/norwegian_nynorsk.txt: -Fix (r23755): ... and WT3 likes some strings that strgen doesn't like ;)
14:31<welshdragon>where is Build While Paused hidden?
14:32<welshdragon>i'm using the latest version of Chill's PP hca7f5804
14:32<CIA-6>OpenTTD: frosch * r23757 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: Unify the drawing of toggle buttons for boolean settings.
14:34*frosch123 notes that tb will make the r30k pie
14:35-!-vodka [~paper@41.Red-88-15-116.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #openttd
14:40<@Alberth>welshdragon: http://wiki.openttd.org/Cheats#Build_while_in_pause_mode
14:40<CIA-6>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r23758 /trunk/src/ (newgrf.cpp rail.cpp rail.h rail_cmd.cpp table/railtypes.h): -Feature: [NewGRF] Alternate rail type label list.
14:41<welshdragon>Alberth: thanks, found it, it's changed since the IS2.1.1 version I've been playing :P
14:41<welshdragon>i gave up tryin to make the saves compatible
14:41<@Alberth>welshdragon: the concept has not changed as far as I know :p
14:42<welshdragon>Alberth: but the selection for the setting has :P
14:42<@Alberth>yeah, we made it less hidden ;)
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: hidden in plain sight :p
14:44<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: often a very good place :)
14:44<@Alberth>as demonstrated a few moments ago :p
14:50*Zuu just got the evil idea of adding the consequence that congested towns get road works :-)
14:53<Zuu>just stop town growth is not that evil after all :-)
14:55<@Alberth>just play tropical or arctic climate :)
14:55<Zuu>Alberth: did you see my latest GameScript relaese just minutes ago?
14:56<@Alberth>I have not seen any gamescript yet :D
14:56<Zuu>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=989208#p989208 <--- Makes towns stop grow if they are congested
14:56<CIA-6>OpenTTD: smatz * r23759 /trunk/src/townname.cpp: -Fix (r17612)[FS#4951]: the check for duplicate town names wasn't really working
14:58<@Alberth>interesting, how do you measure congestion?
14:58<@Terkhen>interesting indeed :)
14:59<Eddi|zuHause>great... so now i have a dependency-chain in the tracking table, but how do i sensibly use it (in term of translating it into model life/early retire)
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15:01<Zuu>Congestion is measured as [vehicles / squares]
15:02<Eddi|zuHause>road works sounds nice :)
15:03<CIA-6>OpenTTD: frosch * r23760 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 5 dirs): -Feature: Allow readonly display of NewGRF parameters, if GRF list may not be edited.
15:03<Eddi|zuHause>but that may backfire... some "stupid" AIs take congestion as a reason to build even more vehicles
15:03<Zuu>Maybe if you don't resolve the situation within some time, the town start road works.
15:04<Zuu>Yes, several AIs does probably not listen for the road works event for example.
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15:15<andythenorth>efening
15:22<@Alberth>o/
15:24<Eddi|zuHause>geening
15:27<__ln__>are there any starfleet ranks between captain and admiral?
15:28<@Alberth>the internets does not know ?? :O
15:30<andythenorth>__ln__: try #trek :P
15:30<__ln__>Alberth: i'm trying the internets, using the internet relay chat protocol search engine.
15:32<__ln__>besides that's the kind of piece of trivia i'd assume at least someone to know by heart :)
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15:37<Eddi|zuHause>trivia: english and french people know "by heart", while german people know "by head" :)
15:37-!-nirox [~nirox@94-246-44.52.3p.ntebredband.no] has quit []
15:37<Eddi|zuHause>(occasionally germans also know "by hat" :))
15:38<andythenorth>should FIRS have a parameter for primary production amounts?
15:38<Eddi|zuHause>low/medium/high? perhaps...
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15:46<Elukka>don't see why not
15:47<Elukka>it'd be a nice option
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16:05<appe_>http://fishki.net/comment.php?id=86457
16:06<@Terkhen>another one of those 128MB flash drives modified to write bigger sizes in a loop?
16:08<Elukka>andy, if you add that i'd like to try a game with high production but few industries
16:09<Elukka>mainly because i like the aesthetics of longer trains
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16:09<Eddi|zuHause>kate gets _really_ slow when opening more than 100 files
16:11<Hirundo>Is it possible to copy a GRFConfig, without copying the status, flags and other stuff that changes during grf loading?
16:12<Eddi|zuHause>Hirundo: you mean like writing a preset?
16:13<Hirundo>Not exactly, presets are just written to the ini file
16:13<Hirundo>Currently, upon starting a new game, the newgame (normal / static) GRFConfigs are copied
16:14<Hirundo>I'd like to apply changes made to the static in-game grf config apply to the static newgame config as well
16:15<Hirundo>But plain copying copies all kind of unwanted status info
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16:32<@Terkhen>oooh, XCOM remake
16:33<TWerkhoven[l]>another one?
16:33<frosch123>shall we add some disaster to ottd to advertise it?
16:33<TWerkhoven[l]>or one thats actually a remake of the original as opposed to a new game that replays the original story?
16:34<frosch123>hmm, some gs should trigger a news message in 2004: "ottd released" :p
16:34<@Terkhen>I don't know :P
16:35<@Terkhen>but it is looking good, if it was like the others I wouldn't even mention it
16:35<TWerkhoven[l]>link?
16:35<Eddi|zuHause>civ IV had an event "civ released" where you could earn money or increase university output
16:35<@Terkhen>http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2012/01/05/1601713.aspx
16:36<@Terkhen>yes, FFH2 changes that event into a "fantasy game called civilization" :P
16:37<Elukka>i loved the hell out of FFH2
16:37<@Alberth>frosch123: I liked the land slide disaster :)
16:37<Elukka>"Set consists of 3 models of the class 03 express locomotive with tender. One each model in a version with the locomotive and tender body made of solid 18 carat gold, sterling silver, and solid bronze. 3 cut diamonds shine as triple headlights on each locomotive. 3 rubies serve to represent the marker lights on each tender. The locomotives are fully functional and are equipped with a 5-pole
16:37<Elukka>motor."
16:37<Elukka>unrelated, but hilarious z scale bling
16:37<@Terkhen>Elukka: I discovered it recently, it has been sucking most of my free time lately :P
16:38<Elukka>i've been feeling like playing it again
16:38<frosch123>Alberth: is that like earthquake? clear every second tile on the map?
16:38<SmatZ>top
16:38<Elukka>i like historical games, but never really liked vanilla civ4 much. somehow the fantasy world seems more believable than the aztecs assaulting the united states with nukes for oil
16:38<@Terkhen>I play with / against my brother when I'm back home, it is really fun
16:39<Elukka>i hope they do a mod for civ5
16:39<TWerkhoven[l]>i preferred the advisors from civ2 (or was that 3)
16:39<Elukka>i experimented with modding civ4 once
16:39<@Terkhen>nah, the guy who did FFH2 is working on commercial games now
16:39<Elukka>aww
16:39<@Terkhen>also, from what I heard civ5 modding sucks
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>civ5 suddenly stopped working for me...
16:40<Rubidium>so does modding for openttd 5; the modding interface is not even documented ;)
16:40<Elukka>i took an old and simple 3D model, gave it some textures (my first try at texturing!) and jammed it into the game
16:40<Elukka>http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/Art%20and%20stuff/woo.png
16:40<@Terkhen>OpenTTD is completely moddable, I have the source :P
16:41<Rubidium>Terkhen: not of OpenTTD 5
16:41<@Alberth>frosch123: http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=112848 http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=44042&hilit=disaster
16:41<@Terkhen>oh :(
16:41<@Terkhen>what does it add?
16:41<Rubidium>it's still shrouded in mystery
16:41<@Alberth>everything you add to it!
16:41<Eddi|zuHause>all existing source code of openttd 5 is available :p
16:42<Elukka>civ4 was rather easier to mod than openttd :P
16:42<Eddi|zuHause>that depends how far your mod wanted to go :)
16:42<@Terkhen>Elukka: I fixed a few annoying FFH2 bugs but coding civ4 mods is rather boring
16:43<Elukka>well, it let you go pretty far with mods
16:43<lugo>*9++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
16:43<lugo>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
16:43<lugo>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
16:43<lugo>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
16:43<lugo>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
16:43<frosch123>@kban lugo
16:43-!-mode/#openttd [+b *!lugo@209.141.56.5] by DorpsGek
16:43-!-lugo was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [frosch123]
16:43<@Terkhen>heh, that guy never says anything and now that
16:44<@Terkhen>Elukka: you can only modify a dll and python code, the "basics" are hidden
16:44<frosch123>maybe he dropped something on his keyboard :p
16:44<@Terkhen>heh :P
16:44<Rubidium>he definitely said stuff before
16:44<Rubidium>even fairly recently-ish
16:44<Elukka>yeah but that means modifying most of the game
16:44<@Terkhen>really? I did not notice :)
16:45<Elukka>there's xml, dll and python modding
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16:45<@Terkhen>Elukka: yes, it is really confusing :P
16:45<Eddi|zuHause>i never had a sufficent compiler for dll modding
16:45<Rubidium>oh, you can mod OpenTTD with XMLs as well
16:45<Rubidium>not very much... but still ;)
16:46<Rubidium>(and only for certain platforms)
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16:46<Eddi|zuHause>the most elaborate "modding" i did was extracting the german translation of alpha centauri
16:46<@Terkhen>urgh, please, no XML
16:47*Terkhen has just started using XML at work and he already hates it
16:47<__ln__>XML is the solution for everything!
16:47<frosch123>ttdviewer can be modded using xml :)
16:47<frosch123>it even has xsd validation
16:47-!-welshdragon [~welshdrag@client-82-31-26-249.midd.adsl.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd
16:47<@Terkhen>scary :O
16:47*Alberth folds __ln__ into xml
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16:48<frosch123>@unban *!lugo@209.141.56.5
16:48-!-mode/#openttd [-b *!lugo@209.141.56.5] by DorpsGek
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16:59<appe_>i happend to do some elevation near a city
16:59<appe_>and they no longer allow building near it
16:59<appe_>how can i help it?
17:00<frosch123>the terraforming does not matter
17:00<frosch123>only the tree-killing which is involved with it
17:00<frosch123>plant new trees, or bribe them :)
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17:03<appe_>ah
17:03<appe_>built a statue for nothing :,(
17:03<frosch123>a statue is never for nothing :)
17:05<Elukka>glah. i wish the toggle to turn off yacd for cargo worked
17:05<Elukka>i hear it has less issues for passengers, and it probably wouldn't be half as cpu killing
17:06<@peter1138>pretty sure it works
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17:08<Elukka>...yeah, it might just not work with FIRS
17:08<Elukka>i tested this but i don't remember the result :D
17:09<@peter1138>absolutely possitive it's unrelated to cargo sets
17:09<Elukka>okay, some industries still say they have destinations, but it says 0 to 0 of the production should go there
17:09<Elukka>others work normally
17:09<Elukka>is that how it's supposed to be?
17:10<Elukka>seems to be random whether they have destinations listed or not
17:12<Pixa>I've found that if I change the setting to off part way through a game, industries I've already looked at have destinations with 0 of 0, whereas others don't
17:15<Elukka>i started a new test game
17:15<Elukka>does it still work right, though?
17:19<Pixa>yeah
17:39<Elukka>that's good
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17:44<@Terkhen>good night
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18:02<Elukka>http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/Art%20and%20stuff/rungenwagen.png
18:02<Elukka>i thought i'd have a lot of trouble making a decent stake wagon at openttd's resolution but i guess it's alright
18:04<@peter1138>4x zoom!
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18:05<Elukka>3x actually, but that's a normal size sprite :P
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18:06<Elukka>1 click and the stakes are gone and it's a low side wagon
18:06<Elukka>easiest 2 sprites ever
18:10*Yexo wonders why people create caching mechanics if those makes things way slower
18:11<@Yexo>joomla/com_sh404sef module. Disable caching and page load time goes from 8-something to 0.7 seconds
18:12<@peter1138>bjarni-optimizations?
18:12<@Yexo>cache in plain text files, something like: "orig-url nice-url\n".....
18:12<@Yexo>after that using strpos to see if an url has a nice url attached to it
18:16<@Yexo>actually nvm, the cache file is a php file (with 3500 lines currently)
18:19<@Yexo>for some reason urls are compared using strpos, which resulted in 1.5M calls to strpos for one page load
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18:34<frosch123>night
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18:50<swissfan91>evening all..
18:51<swissfan91>does anyone know how to calculate HorsePower (hp) from kN?
18:54<MinchinWeb>"The most common definitions [of a horsepower is] equal between 735.5 and 750 watts."
18:55<swissfan91>i was using this, http://www.convertunits.com/from/kW/to/hp
18:55<swissfan91>but the values I was getting didn't match up.
18:56<MinchinWeb>sure they do: 1hp = 0.7459999999980754 kW
18:56<MinchinWeb>do you want kW or kN?
18:56<swissfan91>sorry, kW. The websites that I find specs for trains, they give it in kW, and I need hp.
18:57<MinchinWeb>well, I think your site works... 0.75kW = 750W
18:58<swissfan91>okay so here is the RhB ABe 4/4 I
18:58<swissfan91>and it is said to have 395kW power output
18:58<swissfan91>and the converter gives that to be ~529
18:59<MinchinWeb>395kW / (0.75kW /hp) = 526.6667hp
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19:00<swissfan91>but jvassie, in the swiss set tracking table, found it to be 426
19:00<swissfan91>and that is usually pretty accurate.
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19:01<MinchinWeb>well, it could be different sources or generations or even different gearings of the same engine... no way to know without looking at the sources
19:01<swissfan91>I suppose.
19:01<swissfan91>i don't know how the site gave 529, but you worked it out to be 526..
19:03<MinchinWeb>depends on how exact a convesion you use... I used 2 digit, the site uses 16 or more
19:04<swissfan91>I guess so, yes.
19:04<swissfan91>cheers Minchin :)
19:04<MinchinWeb>:)
19:05<swissfan91>I think I may have gone over the top in this tracking table!
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19:08<swissfan91>52 swiss narrow gauge EMUs, averaging 3 or 4 liveries each..
19:20<Elukka>ha-ha have fun
19:21<Elukka>you can use google for unit conversions
19:21<Elukka>http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&site=&source=hp&q=395+kilowatts+in+horsepower&pbx=1&oq=395+kilowatts+in+horsepower&aq=f&aqi=q-w1&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=793l3798l0l3886l27l16l0l1l1l0l183l1588l7.8l16l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=a07b3761d35d504a&biw=1920&bih=955
19:21<Elukka>like that
19:22<swissfan91>thanks.
19:22-!-Snail_ [~jacopocol@CPE78cd8e5ccf20-CM78cd8e5ccf1d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #openttd
19:23<swissfan91>hello Snail.
19:27<Elukka>i've made it do the most esoteric unit conversions with regards to space stuff :P
19:31<swissfan91>I am all number crunched out I think.
19:37<Snail_>hi all
19:40<swissfan91>we should hopefully have some NG trains for your rails, Snail!
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19:49<Snail_>sounds great :D
19:49<Snail_>I'm planning to release the tracks publicly, and the trains only to playtesters (I'm sure my set is still full of bugs :p )
19:50<swissfan91>oh ok!
19:50<swissfan91>well if you need a hand with any of it, let me know!
19:52<Snail_>yep I'll create a new thread when it's ready
19:52<Snail_>just a matter of days hopefully, I'm just ironing out the last known bugs and adding rackrail
19:53<Elukka>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/de/9/9c/Drehschemelwagen-der-RhB.jpg
19:54<Elukka>heh, ran into a RhB version of that while researching standard gauge versions
19:54<swissfan91>ah, nice. I have drawn up a sizeable tracking table full of Swiss NG EMUs. I may even give Yoshi a hand with the drawing if it takes long enough that I have finished all my work.
19:54<+michi_cc>swissfan91: One important thing to note is that electric engines often have a significantly higher short time power than what they can do continuously. It's often not clear which power is meant in descriptions.
19:54<swissfan91>not that I want to ruin his sprites with mine.
19:55<Snail_>michi_cc: I sent a first complete set of base sprites to make custom tunnels to planetmaker, to do some initial tests
19:55<Snail_>I can send them to you too if you think you could help with that ;) I included the grass and the "bowl" with a new shading for the 4 directions
19:55<Snail_>plus 3 custom portals of different sizes
19:55<swissfan91>michi_cc: yeah, I have found quite a few different versions of power.
19:56<+michi_cc>Snail_: If you send me them I'll see what I can whip up.
19:56<swissfan91>how on earth do I go about finding out the cost of trains for a set?
19:57<Elukka>real world costs don't really work with regards to game balancing, so you have to come up with something
19:57<Snail_>http://imagebin.org/192023
19:57<Snail_>I included instructions as to how the sprites need to be "mounted" together (lego-like)
19:58<Snail_>swissfan91: I guess costs need to be set up with trial and error until the game is balanced...
19:58<Snail_>I myself am unsure about my trains' costs and the playtesting phase will be useful to set those up, too
19:58<swissfan91>Elukka: What set are you collecting standard gauge trains for?
19:58<Elukka>CETS
19:59<swissfan91>oh right, does that have a tracking table anywhere?
19:59<Elukka>real length wagons and more sprite angles \o/
19:59<Elukka>http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/Art%20and%20stuff/cets.png
19:59<Elukka>hell of a lot more stuff to draw for it
19:59<Elukka>yeah there is
19:59<Elukka>https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?authkey=CO2PmdYG&key=0AkXAVZqXTFQxdHM3UlpWM1hPZWpfeTlkdnZsMldjSkE&hl=en_US&authkey=CO2PmdYG
20:01<swissfan91>CETS is 2CC isn't it?
20:02<Elukka>no
20:02<Elukka>for now it's real colors
20:05<swissfan91>ohhh, that CETS!
20:05<swissfan91>I've just been on the thread.
20:06<Elukka>i didn't even know there's a thread :D
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20:06<swissfan91>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=47655&hilit=cets
20:06<Elukka>huh.
20:06<Elukka>that... isn't related but has the same name
20:07<Elukka>that'll result in confusion if that's still active...
20:07<swissfan91>that's a bit awkward..
20:07<swissfan91>I did wonder why you had SBB trains in your tracking table, but it wasn't mentioned in that thread.
20:10<Elukka>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/cets/repository/revisions/ea4f3221f513/entry/src/gfx/template_13.png
20:10<Elukka>a CETS template for long coaches looks like that
20:11<Elukka>dunno how they made it work in the game but it does, and they're not bendy
20:13<Snail_>how do they work in curves just before (or after) slopes?
20:13<Elukka>probably slightly glitchily
20:15<Elukka>doesn't look too bad to me
20:16<Elukka>you can see for yourself: https://bundles.openttdcoop.org/cets/nightlies/
20:16<Elukka>nothing quite that long in game yet but the 4 axle coaches are reasonably long
20:16<Snail_>how about drawing uphill sprites? so that the wagons can be seen actually climbing slopes
20:17<Elukka>whether that's possible is beyond me
20:17<Elukka>oh yeah, that grf needs some recent nightly of openttd
20:32<+michi_cc>Snail_: The custom portals that face to the top (bottom row) won't work that way. The track base needs to be separate from the portal otherwise either the train is hidden by the tracks or the portal by the train. I'll do a quick copy-paste just for testting though.
20:40<Snail_>michi_cc: you mean the portals facing away from the player? like the NE and NW ones?
20:40<+michi_cc>Yes.
20:41<Snail_>in that case, then we can just separate the track from the portals themselves... like, cut them in 2 pieces.. these graphics should still work, I guess?
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20:43<Qinc>hey, any chance I can get some quick help on a subject?
20:43<Zuu>The chance gets higher if you actually ask your question.
20:44<Zuu>@get 3
20:44<@DorpsGek>Zuu: Don't ask to ask, just ask
20:44<Qinc>Configging a dedi server for ttd,
20:44<Qinc>server_admin_chat, an admin chat? how do I use it?
20:44<Qinc>found it in the .cfg
20:45<Qinc>have looked on the wiki, nothing useful there
20:45<Zuu>there is a document in the doc directory about multiplayer.
20:45<Zuu>In your OpenTTD installatino directory.
20:47<Qinc>Yeah, looked there aswell, nothing on that specifically, unless its only accessible from another application..
20:47<Zuu>there is something called the admin port.
20:48<Zuu>And there are 2-3 libraries that people have started as a base for writing applications that work with it. Yet I don't know if there really is any public available program.
20:49<Zuu>There is also the autopilot which is older than the admin port. It hooks up to stdout/stdin of a OpenTTD dedicated server.
20:50<Qinc>Yeah.. thanks.. was considering it
20:50<Qinc>thankyou for your help ;)
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21:24<+michi_cc>Snail_: http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/patches/tunnel_in_game.png
21:25<+michi_cc>NE and NW need some work I guess :) Personally I'd remove a bit from the top grass sprite to get a bit more working room for the portal.
21:25<Snail_>wow :D
21:26<Snail_>so, make the "bowl" a little bit shorter?
21:26<+michi_cc>The OpenTTD code is quite trival (http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/895/) but figuring out the offsets was a lot tougher :)
21:27<+michi_cc>Yes. Or maybe not directly shorter, but change the shape.
21:28<Snail_>yeah... the shape is problematic, coz it needs to fit other styles too
21:28<Snail_>although the bowl ca be at least partly overwritten by the portal
21:29<+michi_cc>And you could probably improve the embedding of the portals into the landscape by add some random pixels in the back (like http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/patches/pixels.png but not that random :)
21:30<+michi_cc>Now you have some thinking to do and I some sleeping :)
21:31<Snail_>:)
21:32<Snail_>yep, the portals themselves will need a lot of work. I was focusing on the landscape now
21:32<Snail_>I'll try to play a little bit with the northbound views and split the portal sprites as wel
21:32<Snail_>*well
21:33<Wolf01>'night
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23:36<MinchinWeb>with the Ship Pathfinder (in game), how close does a ship have to get to a buoy before it considers the ship for have reached it?
23:37<Eddi|zuHause>the center of the boat must be on the buoy tile
23:37<MinchinWeb>... it seems to me when I watch them, they skip to the next destination before that
23:38<Eddi|zuHause>[citation needed]
23:42<MinchinWeb>citation -> http://postimage.org/image/ccm6zk2l1/
23:42<MinchinWeb>in this case, it appears to be a Manhattan Distance of 3...
23:45<Eddi|zuHause>well, make a bug report about it, if you think this is disturbing your operations
23:45<Eddi|zuHause>but it could also be that the sprite is misaligned
23:46<Eddi|zuHause>could press Ctrl+B to confirm (needs developer tools enabled)
23:51<MinchinWeb>the ship is from FIRS
23:51<MinchinWeb>I'm actaully writing an AI and trying to figure out how close is close enough with buoys
23:51<MinchinWeb>(I don't exactally want to spam the map with them, if it can be helped)
---Logclosed Fri Jan 06 00:00:56 2012