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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-01-06

---Logopened Fri Jan 06 00:00:56 2012
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01:10<MinchinWeb>is there a way to download just the NoAI documentation? (rather than the full source documentation)
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03:09<@Terkhen>good morning
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03:28<@planetmaker>moin
03:32<@Terkhen>hi planetmaker
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03:44*peter1138 smirks at XKCD
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07:04<Wolf01>hello!
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07:11<@peter1138>what's some good change control (not version control) software?
07:12<__ln__>chmod!
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07:20<@peter1138>no...
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07:31<Wolf01>peter1138, do you mean a software like diff used between revisions?
07:31<Wolf01>hello frosch123
07:33<frosch123>moin wolf :)
07:34<@planetmaker>quak
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07:42<@peter1138>no, general purpose change control
07:42<@peter1138>not version control o_O
07:43<frosch123>${EDITOR} changelog.txt
07:43<@peter1138>o_O
07:45<@planetmaker>peter1138: in order to create a meaningful changelog.txt (if that's what you mean), it usually is a good idea to resort to the commit messages of your VCS
07:45<frosch123>yay, 0 bit graphics
07:45<@planetmaker>otherwise... diff it
07:45<@peter1138>yeah
07:45<@peter1138>well
07:46<@peter1138>i'm talking change control
07:46<@peter1138>not change logs, or version control, etc :p
07:46<@planetmaker>where differs "change control" from "version control"?
07:46<Wolf01>then I can't understand what change control is :P
07:46<@Terkhen>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Change_control
07:47<@Terkhen>maybe :P
07:47<@peter1138>yeah
07:47<@peter1138>that
07:48<Wolf01>I red it, but I didn't understand it :(
07:48<@planetmaker>:-) I should have wiki'ed it myself, I guess
07:48<Wolf01>at least not the practical use
07:49<Wolf01>it looks like flyspray to me
07:54<Eddi|zuHause>why does xkcd remind me of Rubidium? :)
07:54<Wolf01>omg, xkcd... I forgot it
08:09<Rubidium>because it's a lovely red today?
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08:44<xQR>i have created a bug tracker entry about a problem that could be exploited to block the games on servers - is there a way to hide it so only devs see it?
08:44<xQR>i don't think it would be good to give players the idea, though i don't think that very many players actually read the bug entries :P
08:45<appe_>im just trying out replacing trains for the first time
08:45<appe_>i cant seem to replace to the very same engine type
08:45<appe_>even though the engine is available in the depot.
08:45<appe_>http://gyazo.com/d632ef810bbd6dc2e1b6c487b0a55e0f
08:46<xQR>the screenshot doesn't show any problem actually
08:46<xQR>the "Start Replacing Vehicles" button is active and waiting for your click
08:46<xQR>that's what the screenshot shows
08:47<xQR>:P
08:47<@peter1138>appe_, that's called "autorenew"
08:47<appe_>oh
08:47<appe_>oooh.
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08:48<xQR>ah yes, if you want to just replace them with newer versions of themselves: http://wiki.openttd.org/Autorenew_vehicles#Autorenew
08:48<appe_>ah, i see. though, this is a setting, not a feature, afaik
08:49<appe_>and im playing on a server with that setting - not enabled.
08:49<xQR>no, it's a local client setting
08:49<xQR>you can enable it in your own options
08:49<appe_>oh
08:49<appe_>!!
08:49<appe_>thanks
08:49<TrueBrain>its company wide
08:50<appe_>i found it
08:50<appe_>neat
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08:50<appe_>though, i love that replacing feature
08:50<appe_>really nice
08:51<FLHerne>The problem, though, is when you need to replace short wagons with longer ones, and your trains are already the longest practical...
08:52<FLHerne>A 'replace wagons of type x with the same length of type y' would be nice
08:52<xQR>that's already in there
08:53<xQR>check his screenshot
08:53<appe_>ah, yes
08:53<appe_>it would be a 0.5 longer+
08:53<appe_>-+ +?
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08:53<xQR>yeah but that is covered by the wagon removal option
08:53<xQR>in that screen
08:53<appe_>ah, i see
08:53<xQR>bottom right
08:54<appe_>btw, how much does passenger traffic to oil rigs stimulate the production? none?
08:54<appe_>jeez
08:54<FLHerne>I don't think I noticed that button...
08:54<appe_>that autorenew option didnt come cheap on a 200 train+ map..
08:55<xQR>i don't think that moving passengers there has any direct effect onto the oil production
08:56<xQR>well appe_ that's why it is an option i guess :P
08:56<xQR>if you want to have the full control over it, you gotta do it manually ;)
08:58<appe_>hehe
08:58<FLHerne>Just tried it - the Wagon Removal button does exactly what I wanted...how've I managed to miss it for 2 years?
09:01<appe_>i didnt even know openttd had autorenew, nor autoreplace
09:01<appe_>for years, and years.
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09:26<appe_>hm, let's see
09:26<appe_>i have this big network
09:27<appe_>electrified railway, of what i wich to change to maglev.
09:27<appe_>can i change the trains in the depots, even though the depots are of the electrified railway type?
09:27<Eddi|zuHause>no
09:27<Eddi|zuHause>but you can use the universal railtype
09:30<appe_>universal?
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09:57<Eddi|zuHause>we _really_ need a better way of testing availability timelines...
09:58<Remi_Woler>I vote for unit testing \o/
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09:59<@planetmaker>what / how do you suggest to test or display that, Eddi|zuHause?
10:00<@planetmaker>and what do you want to see considered?
10:00<@planetmaker>also an action6 which changes availability depending on openttd rev?
10:00<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: the easiest way i can imagine would be: i start a game in 2030 with vehicles never expire, and when clicking through the purchase list, it shows the earliest and latest availability for each vehicle
10:01<Eddi|zuHause>(the randomized values)
10:03<Eddi|zuHause>currently i'm flying mostly blind here, because it's too tedious to test whether vehicle X will be unavailable before or after Y is available
10:05<Eddi|zuHause>scripts/processing.py:127:values["retire_early"]=values["vehicle_life"]-4 <-- i need to test whether this magic -4 is the right value
10:06<Eddi|zuHause>and using the date cheat is not working
10:06<Eddi|zuHause>it doesn't make vehicles unavailable properly
10:07<Eddi|zuHause>unrelated: is there a RandomActionD?
10:08<frosch123>no
10:08<Eddi|zuHause>so we could have the default for which company is played set to "random", and it'll choose a different one per game
10:18<Eddi|zuHause>so things like the random seed are not accessible?
10:23<frosch123>hmm, after using svn for some time, it always confuses me that hg commit is instant :p
10:24<Eddi|zuHause>:p
10:24<@planetmaker>:-)
10:24-!-Fosland [d4fbf714@ircip3.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd
10:24<Fosland>Greetings
10:24<frosch123>hiho
10:24<Eddi|zuHause>anyone figured out a good pricing formula yet?
10:25<Fosland>Can anyone give me a hand with downloading openttd for my mac? :)
10:25<Eddi|zuHause>no, we cannot reach out for your mouse to click on the download link
10:26<Fosland>Well, when i download the nightly, do i then need to place the gfx, sfx and msx in the file?
10:27<Eddi|zuHause>have you checked the readme yet?
10:29<frosch123>you only need to succeed in installing the gfx
10:29<frosch123>you can get the rest easier in game
10:29<Fosland>I cant find a readme inside the file
10:29<frosch123>http://hg.openttd.org/openttd/trunk.hg/raw-file/tip/readme.txt
10:30<frosch123>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/opengfx/repository/entry/docs/readme.ptxt
10:32<frosch123>section 4.2 in the former, section 3.2 in the latter
10:33<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: but one gets already for each vehicle the introduction date and the lifetime, right?
10:34<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i'm talking about the model life, not the vehicle life
10:34<@planetmaker>hm... yes
10:35<Fosland>When downloading the gfx from the site (openttd.org) Do i download all of em? Because i get a list with three options
10:35<Fosland>Binary files, sources and another sources
10:35<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: actually i have a tool for that in progress
10:36<frosch123>just was too lazy to create a project on devzone yet :p
10:36<frosch123>Fosland: only the binary
10:36<Fosland>Thanks
10:37<Fosland>Then i make a new folder inside the nightly build named "baseset" and extract it?
10:37<Eddi|zuHause>i think the vehicle purchase and running costs are the only major thing left before we can have some "real world" playtesting
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10:38<Eddi|zuHause>there's a bit of minor stuff like reliability
10:38<Eddi|zuHause>but i have no idea how to reasonably test this
10:38<Eddi|zuHause>i never play with breakdowns
10:39<@planetmaker>let's try the banana approach with reliability: choose some values which seem about right and let users complain
10:41-!-Vadtec [~Vadtec@2001:470:1f06:13e0::1337] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
10:43<Eddi|zuHause>there are a few fixed hardcoded values left that need to be differentiated for the vehicles. air drag, loading speed, cargo decay
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10:48<Eddi|zuHause>and the length refit for the DMU/EMU vehicles is not implemented yet
10:50<Fosland>ive managed to install and get openttd to work, but i cant join any server? I even have the nightly build?
10:51<+glx>server need to have the exact same version
10:51<@planetmaker>Fosland: you need the exact same version. And I'm slow
10:51<Fosland>And how can i get the exact same version?
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10:51<@planetmaker>Download?
10:51<@planetmaker>Same as you got the current one
10:52<@planetmaker>most servers run 1.2.0-beta1 or 1.1.4 currently
10:52<@planetmaker>http://www.openttd.org/en/servers
10:52<@planetmaker>i.e. the testing or the stable release version
10:52<Fosland>Thanks, i just need to download the stable
10:53<Fosland>When downloaded do i need to add grx to that file?
10:53<@planetmaker>depends where you placed it
10:54<@planetmaker>if you placed it in ~/Documents/OpenTTD/data you need do nothing else
10:54<Fosland>I didnt :D
10:54<@planetmaker>I'd recommend to use the beta1 though ;-)
10:54<Fosland>But i wanna play on Luukland, and they run the 1.1.4
10:54<Fosland>What cool features are in the beta?
10:55<@planetmaker>many ;-) For example all the features which obsolete Luukland ;-)
10:55<@planetmaker>like: goal scripts
10:55<@planetmaker>rivers
10:55<@planetmaker>better newgrfs
10:56<Fosland>I can have to games? One for Luukland and one for beta?
10:56<@planetmaker>etc pp. See the changelog
10:56<@planetmaker>of course. You can have as many openttds as you want (and have space for)
10:56<Fosland>two *
10:56<@planetmaker>just make sure to place your graphics files not local to the individual dir. But into ~/Documents/OpenTTD
10:57<Fosland>Thanks for the help guys :)
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11:01<Fosland>planetmaker, i have downloaded the 1.1.4 and put grx into the baseset folder, why is it still not working :/
11:02<@planetmaker>1.1.4 requires it to be in the data folder.
11:02<@planetmaker>I'm afraid that's one of the changes between 1.1.x and 1.2.x
11:02<Fosland>Thanks!
11:03<Fosland>There we go, perfect :)
11:14<Zuu><planetmaker> let's try the banana approach with reliability: choose some values which seem about right and let users complain <--- Sure, and as noone has replyed to my last relaese of "Neighbours are important" they all think it is very good :-)
11:14<@planetmaker>:-D
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11:15<@planetmaker>Zuu: a reasonable assumption, though ;-)
11:15<Zuu>However, I was happy to get a possitive feedback for PAXLink recently.
11:15<Zuu>Made me think about possible integrate feeders into CluelessPlus.
11:18<Remi_Woler>Zuu: I think it is almost good. Seriously. Played it twice now, and I think the balance is off for the worse. It quickly becomes near impossible, if not impossible, to satisfy the goals
11:19<Remi_Woler>I haven't analyzed the algorythm enough to suggest something better, hence why I didn't speak up yet
11:19<Zuu>Did you use 1.0 as scale factor or did you scale down the goals?
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11:20<Remi_Woler>I used it as-is, from Bananas
11:20<Zuu>There is a scale parameter in the game script settings now.
11:21<Zuu>You can also turn off the thing that makes towns with small neighbours hard to grow.
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11:22<Remi_Woler>I don't think my version has settings. So I may have a too old version then. Either way, it was the problem that up till 600~800 was doable, but then the goals suddenly becoming insance, like being multiplied by 70, instead of a linear-y increase
11:24<Zuu>It could be the neighbour thing that kicks in. A factor is computed that compares the size of the town itself and the 2-3 or so closest neighbours. For towns with small neighbours this factors become > 1. For relativly small towns the factor is < 1.
11:24<Zuu>As you grow your town larger this factor becomes larger if you didn't do anything to its neighbours.
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11:24<Zuu>So not only does the goals grow because of your town growing but also because it become larger relative to its neighbours.
11:24<@planetmaker>Well, might make sense for CluelessPlus :-)
11:26<Remi_Woler>Zuu: that explains it. It quickly became an issue that there were not enough passengers in the map being "produced" to satisfy any of the goals, after I cultivated all towns to 600~800. (512x512 map, with "very low" towns)
11:26<Zuu>Sometimes when it upgrades airports, the new one get worse coverage due to noise restrictions or larger airport size, and in that case a feeder service would be nice.
11:27<Zuu>There is also a distance limit on what is considered a neighbour. Possible som 80-100 tiles or so.
11:27<Remi_Woler>I think I saw 100 in the code
11:27<Zuu>But again only the 2-3 closest or so counts (could be 5 too, I don't really remember)
11:28<Remi_Woler>I believe 3, but it's been a week since I looked at the source. Haven't played it since, since my human opponent thought they were too hard, and instead started practicing RoRo's and not care about any of the goals at all
11:30<Zuu>If you want to use the new one, download it from bananas and create a new game. (GameScripts can't be upgraded in a running game). The new one allows scaling the goals from 1 to 1000%. That setting can be changed in game (at least for single-player and non-dedicated servers) so you can fine tune it in the game if it becomes too hard.
11:31<Remi_Woler>we're playing the TestTest one now, which is really easy, so she can become used to the goals, and probably then use the new Neigbours-Needs script. I was planning on adjusting the algorithm in the existing script, but your solution is much easier! :D
11:31<Zuu>But I'm also open to make changes to the default values so that there are sane defaults too.
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11:32<Eddi|zuHause>i should probably finalize my delanuay-library
11:32<Remi_Woler>I won't be able to suggest anything till I found something that works better. That's why I hadn't spoken up yet
11:32<Eddi|zuHause>could be used to find the appropriate neighbours
11:33<Eddi|zuHause>i was also thinking about splitting the map into regions with this
11:33<Zuu>The new one also have a new (optional) feature of reducing/stopping town growth if towns get too congested. This limit can also be scaled in-game through a setting or completely be turned off.
11:33<Zuu>Remi_Woler: Fine, I'm looking forward to what you come up with. But no hurry.
11:33<Remi_Woler>largest I've seen so far is 70k (non-gamescript), so that hasn't become an option yet
11:34<Eddi|zuHause>roughly: pick the biggest N towns, make them capitals. calculate the delaunay triangulation/voronoi partition to determine which towns get which capital
11:34<Remi_Woler>Well, it mostly depends on when she has enough time to play. I can play on my own, but that won't reflect real life. Especially since there's no AI yet that understands goals (for as far as I am aware)
11:34<Eddi|zuHause>possibly stack this multiple times, so you get a hierarchy
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11:35<Remi_Woler>Eddi|zuHause: if you can, also look at world features. Like if a town is on a real island, it should not be in the same region as one on the mainland. Probably bigger rivers as dividers too.
11:37<Remi_Woler>Eddi|zuHause: and I'd probably call them counties :)
11:38-!-sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.26.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:38<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think "map features" are going to be sensibly included
11:39<Remi_Woler>would probably too hard, either programming or cost wise
11:39<Zuu>Remi_Woler: If you want to make it easier, especially conceptually, I think it is probably a good idea to turn off the neigbours feature. (there is a setting for that too) I've played with the script at this configuration (at the time when TrueBrain wrote it), and it provide some challenge but is not too difficult.
11:39<Remi_Woler>Zuu: TestTest == yours-without-neighbours, correct?
11:40<Zuu>Could be that yes. Do you have a link?
11:40<Remi_Woler>one sec
11:40<Zuu>f it is the one that TrueBrain wrote originally, then yes.
11:41<Remi_Woler>Zuu: http://devs.openttd.org/~truebrain/nogo/main.nut.txt
11:41<Remi_Woler>I guess the URL gives it away :$
11:42<Eddi|zuHause>Remi_Woler: conceptually you'd give the world a non-linear distance function, which makes rivers and water "wider" than land tiles
11:42<Eddi|zuHause>but that makes all the currently used algebra "wrong"...
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11:44<Remi_Woler>Eddi|zuHause: why? I was thinking just finding out what tiles are in between them, and if no route can be found over land, they would not qualify as neighbours? Probably too costly, especially in a gamescript, but that was how I was thinking
11:44<Remi_Woler>Pretty bruteforcing though, now that I write it out, so probably not the best option
11:44<Zuu>Sounds like a such graph that you can make in a GIS or macro model software over how far you get in X minutes. :-)
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11:45<Eddi|zuHause>Remi_Woler: that's nothing that can be reasonably integrated into an algebraic solution like delanuay
11:45<Remi_Woler>delanuay doesn't ring a bell
11:45<Eddi|zuHause>delaunay
11:47<Remi_Woler>but in all honesty: I learned programming first, and algebra much much later. So I have quite a hard time expressing something in algebra, even though I could code it in C without a sweat. Okay, maybe a couple curses to whoever thought up pointers
11:47<Remi_Woler>delaunay doesn't ring a bell either
11:48<Zuu>I too learned to program before (advanced) math.
11:48<Zuu>The best way to make a math person mad is to reuse variables :-)
11:48<Remi_Woler>:D
11:48-!-eberon [~eberon@angilas.ur.northwestern.edu] has quit [Quit: eberon]
11:49<Remi_Woler>and the best way to make a developer mad: use another character than i for the iterator in a for-loop? :D
11:49<Zuu>or leaving out identation..
11:51<Zuu>Got to bike. See you later.
11:51<Remi_Woler>Zuu: indentation is to make code beautiful. Proof: http://www.wolerized.com/blog/art-development (sorry for the self-plug, but the original source is downloading file)
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12:04<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: similar to this? http://imagebin.org/192145
12:04<@planetmaker>I'd not show the random stuff but the raw dates w/o randomization
12:04<@planetmaker>it would show those dates when newgrf developer tools are active
12:05<Eddi|zuHause>but the randomization is the interesting part... for various randomizations, do vehicle X and Y overlap?
12:06<Eddi|zuHause>and your "refrigerator wagon" is buggy :)
12:07<@planetmaker>I noticed ;-)
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12:19<Eddi|zuHause>running cost: (standing | running) * vehicle age * inflation balance?
12:20<@planetmaker>* vehicle age?
12:21<Eddi|zuHause>well "*" not exactly
12:21<Eddi|zuHause>but older vehicles should cost more
12:21<frosch123>you should add the breakdown chance to the running cost, if breakdowns are disabled :p
12:21<@planetmaker>:-)
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12:22<frosch123>depot visits would then reduce the running cost
12:22<@planetmaker>trunk((vehicle age in years) / 10) or so. But yes
12:22<Eddi|zuHause>inflation balance would be to have the ratio purchase/running cost roughly the same if you played for 100 years or started 100 years later
12:23<@planetmaker>I like that idea really, frosch123
12:23<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: that sounds evil
12:23<@planetmaker>why?
12:24<@planetmaker>* (5 - breakdown_chance / 20) or so
12:24<@planetmaker>with breakdown_chance = 0...100
12:24<@planetmaker>hm
12:24<@planetmaker>6 -
12:24<Eddi|zuHause>is there a var for current reliability?
12:24*Remi_Woler spots a division by zero
12:24<Eddi|zuHause>Remi_Woler: for particularly small values of 20?
12:25<@planetmaker>Remi_Woler: mind order of operation
12:25<frosch123>vars 4A-4F
12:25<Remi_Woler>Eddi|zuHause: for the smallest value of breakdown_chance. The way I learned math, division takes priority over subtraction
12:26<Eddi|zuHause>Remi_Woler: is your monitor upside down?
12:26<@planetmaker>and? it's the nominator
12:27<@planetmaker>anyway... (1 + age / 10) * (6 - breakdown / 20) * (running | stopped) * factor
12:27<Remi_Woler>breakdown_chance can be 0. You divide breakdown_chance by 20, then subtract that outcome from 5, then multiply that outcome with whatever is before the line
12:27<@planetmaker>Remi_Woler: and now write it down and see where you divide by 0
12:28<Remi_Woler>Okay, maybe not the most correct term, but still the same issue
12:28<@planetmaker>nope
12:28<Eddi|zuHause>so something like taking var 4E as a linear factor
12:28<@Yexo>Remi_Woler: 0/x is valid, x/0 is not
12:29<Remi_Woler>but does it do what you want?
12:29<Eddi|zuHause>so if reliability is 50% you pay twice, 25% you pay quadruple
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12:30<Eddi|zuHause>we only have a range 0..255
12:30<@planetmaker>given the rounding of int, I guess it'd be 4x and 5x with what I gave. But...
12:30<@Yexo>divide by 51 instead of 20
12:31<@planetmaker>like that ^
12:31<Eddi|zuHause>var 4E is 0..FFFF (0%..100%)
12:33<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: but that "breaks" the idea of having older-looking vehicles drive around, which you didn't send to depot for a while ;)
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12:33<Eddi|zuHause>var 80+4E, of course
12:33<frosch123>vehicles also get older inside depots
12:34<frosch123>oh, i forgot the 80 as well :p
12:34<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: but the graphics are decided for last depot visit
12:34<frosch123>well, visualising the running cost via the vehicle sprite is not too bad, is it?
12:35<Eddi|zuHause>no, i mean livery repainting
12:35<Eddi|zuHause>not making the vehicle look old
12:35<frosch123>i don't get your point
12:35<@planetmaker>is the livery updated by depot visits?
12:35<@planetmaker>automatically?
12:35<frosch123>do you want to never send vehicle to depot?
12:35<Eddi|zuHause>currently yes.
12:36<frosch123>then i think that is a bad idea :p
12:36<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: that's how i play usually :)
12:36<frosch123>i don't :p
12:36<frosch123>all my vehicles regulary visit depots
12:36<frosch123>not only because i play with breakdowns, but also because i play with overflow depots
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12:36<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: to sensibly do that, i need engine rotation :)
12:37<Eddi|zuHause>so the train moves with another engine, while the first engine goes to depot
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12:37<Eddi|zuHause>so i have N trains and N+1 engines, and always one engine goes to depot
12:38<@Alberth>it must feel very lonely, all alone in the depot :(
12:38<Eddi|zuHause>it feels even more happy when it comes out again :)
12:40<Eddi|zuHause>but i wanted to introduce a parameter anyway: update livery on: {current year (immediate), last service date, build date}
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12:52<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: build_date means 'never change livery'?
12:52<@planetmaker>of existing vehicles?
12:52<@planetmaker>(not models)
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13:07<Eddi|zuHause>yes
13:07<Eddi|zuHause>may make some later liveries unavailable
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13:10<@planetmaker>why would that make them unavailable?
13:10<@planetmaker>ah, you mean when existing vehicles are re-painted past the model's availability?
13:10<Eddi|zuHause>yes
13:10<@planetmaker>fair enough
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13:20<epicNick>hello can sombay helpme what is the player limit for open transport tycoon?
13:20<Eddi|zuHause>255 players in 16 companies
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13:21<frosch123>15 companies
13:21-!-epicNick [~heronick@ip51cc9ae1.speed.planet.nl] has quit []
13:21<@Terkhen>heh
13:21<Eddi|zuHause>close enough
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13:22<@Terkhen>was that the record of "leaving after question is answered"? :P
13:23<Eddi|zuHause>-30 :p
13:23<welshdragon>why is it I can't select 'large' towns when I click 'Found Town' button?
13:24<@planetmaker>you're not in the scenario editor probably
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13:25*planetmaker knows no game "open transport tycoon". I know OpenTTD, though
13:26<Eddi|zuHause>we still need "dual headed" flag for articulated vehicles :)
13:33<@Yexo>TrueBrain: there is an issue with mail forwarded by openttdcoop.org to openttd.org addresses
13:34<^Spike^>lazy mans way to explain: http://www.openspf.net/Why?id=yexo@openttd.org&ip=178.63.83.101
13:34<@Yexo>one example: approximately an hour ago I send an email to nml-team@openttdcoop.org, which is forwarded to (amongst others) my openttd.org address
13:35<^Spike^>the error that is replied to our server comes from mailfiltering.nl: 550 5.7.1 SPF fail: see http://openspf.org/why.html?sender=yexo@openttd.org&ip=178.63.83.101 (in reply to RCPT TO command)
13:41<Ammler>what michi_cc said, the question is will/can/should we implement SRS on our side :-)
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13:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: translators * r23761 /trunk/src/lang/ (16 files): (log message trimmed)
13:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: belarusian - 1 changes by Wowanxm
13:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: bulgarian - 50 changes by kokobongo
13:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: english_AU - 6 changes by tomas4g
13:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: english_US - 1 changes by Rubidium
13:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: finnish - 1 changes by jpx_
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13:48<@peter1138>people still using SPF?
13:48-!-Rezt [~Rezt@81-178-198-172.dsl.pipex.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.]
13:49<^Spike^>ottd seems to :)
13:49<^Spike^>or atleast ottds MX seems so :)
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13:53<TrueBrain>Yexo: like said: SPF :)
13:54<@Yexo>TrueBrain: it does raise the question: how many (valid) messages are blocked by that filter?
13:54<TrueBrain>Yexo: none
13:55<^Spike^>make that 1 now ;)
13:55<TrueBrain>just remember that any mail you send from @openttd.org has to be send FROM secure.openttd.org
13:55<@Yexo>yes, of course
13:55<@Yexo>I meant it more like: how many addresses are there with wrongly configured servers (like openttdcoop apparently)?
13:56<TrueBrain>N
13:56<^Spike^>wrongly configured server.....
13:56<^Spike^>ty for that compliment of hard work :)
13:56<@Yexo>^Spike^: sorry it sounded like that
13:56<^Spike^>it's ok :)
13:56<^Spike^>i never take it personally :)
13:57<@Yexo>good, it wasn't meant as such
13:57<^Spike^>i'll just cry myself to sleep tonight ;)
13:57<TrueBrain>Yexo: the DSN btw got rejected by openttdcoop :)
13:57<TrueBrain>so openttdcoop doesn't like you relaying messages like that :)
13:57<@planetmaker>eh?
13:57<TrueBrain>it should, by RFC, rewrite the address of course
13:57<TrueBrain>but that is something that went out of the room as soon as the RFC was implemented, years ago :)
13:58<^Spike^>who follows a damn rfc? :)
13:58<^Spike^>tinymailserver from what was that guys name again
13:58<TrueBrain>Yexo: I guess you set up an alias on openttdcoop, which in fact is more a maillist?
13:58<^Spike^>:)
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13:58<@planetmaker>that's about it, yes
13:58<@Yexo>TrueBrain: not me, but it works like that yes
13:58<TrueBrain>then it should fail yes :)
13:58<TrueBrain>happy it does :)
13:58<^Spike^>.... :)
13:58<TrueBrain>I understand it mostly is the easiest solution
13:58<TrueBrain>but with all the SPAM these days, it is an invalid solution (by RFC, again)
13:59<TrueBrain>in that respect, we live in a said world :(
13:59<TrueBrain>sad
13:59<TrueBrain>lol
13:59<^Spike^>gresylisting does seem to work here :)
13:59<@Yexo>I understand why it fails and that is should fail, however since I don't see anything about the failure on yexo@openttd.org, I'm wondering if I've missed more messages this way
13:59<^Spike^>greylisting*
13:59<TrueBrain>Yexo: like said, the DSN got rejected by openttdcoop :)
13:59<TrueBrain>as there openttdcoop does follow RFC :)
13:59<TrueBrain>well, not really, but partial :)
13:59<@Yexo>you've got to spell that out for me
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14:00<TrueBrain>okay: you send mail from openttd.org to openttdcoop
14:00<TrueBrain>openttdcoop relays it to openttd.org
14:00<@Yexo>I thought openttd.org refused the messages because of the wrong "From:" header?
14:00<TrueBrain>openttd.org mail filter sees @openttd.org, but from wrong IP
14:00<TrueBrain>rejects it
14:00<TrueBrain>it sends a DSN to the sending server, to let the user know that it failed
14:00<TrueBrain>this travels back to openttdcoop
14:00<TrueBrain>which rejects the DSN because it is to @openttd.org
14:00<TrueBrain>which is not in his allowed relay list
14:01<@Yexo>aha :)
14:01<@Yexo>thanks, I got it now
14:01<TrueBrain>so it is a double issue, and both are the reason not to use aliases for maillists :)
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14:01<TrueBrain>of course the mailfilter could deliver the DSN to the real MX, but by RFC you are obligated to do to the MX that tried to give you the email :)
14:01<TrueBrain>(again, to avoid spam :))
14:02<TrueBrain>we all received "failure to deliver" emails from places we didnt know we tried to send to :P
14:02<Eddi|zuHause>not that i know of :p
14:02<TrueBrain>sadly, there still isn't a light-weighted maillist software
14:02<TrueBrain>easiest solution is sending from @openttdcoop account
14:03<TrueBrain>and if you missed more email like this; you shouldn't ,only in these scenarios where you bounce an email from @openttd.org over another server, which is not configured to relay emails in a RFC fashion
14:04<Ammler>TrueBrain: does openttd mailserver do SRS?
14:04<@Yexo>TrueBrain: I understand now why the bounce message also didn't come back
14:04<TrueBrain>Ammler: how is that relevant?
14:04<Ammler>I don't think it is against RFC, else postfix would support it
14:04<TrueBrain>the issue is more that openttdcoop doesn't
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14:07<TrueBrain>Yexo: one of the downsides (next to the many upsides) of using a SPF with -all :)
14:08<^Spike^>seems not...
14:08<^Spike^>wrong chan :)
14:08-!-JVassie [~James@2.27.87.68] has joined #openttd
14:08<TrueBrain>I also dont really have a solution for you :(
14:08<^Spike^>...
14:08<^Spike^>why you using mailfiltering.nl in the first place? other then spam protection... :)
14:08<TrueBrain>it _is_ spam protection
14:09<Ammler>well, also if we would change our mailserver, you still have no clue how many other mails you reject because of that
14:09<^Spike^>^^ what he said
14:09<TrueBrain>Ammler: because in general I don't care about MX that do not follow RFC
14:09<TrueBrain>as 90% of those hosts are spammers
14:09<Ammler>TrueBrain: please show me the RFC about that
14:09<@Yexo>Ammler: but in general if a message would be rejectd the sender would get a bouncer mail
14:10<TrueBrain>Ammler: by RFC a MX is obligated to accept a DSN from the MX he tries to send an email to
14:10<TrueBrain>if the sending MX has no route back for an address he is sending from, he has no business doing that
14:10<Ammler>moment, do we speak about the same issue?
14:11<Ammler>what does DSN have to do with that?
14:11<Ammler>oh, DSN?
14:11<Ammler>what's that?
14:11<TrueBrain>LOL
14:11<Ammler>:-)
14:11<TrueBrain>Delivery Status Notifications
14:11<Ammler>well, that we could fix
14:12-!-HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@88.130.174.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:12<Ammler>^Spike^: ^
14:12<TrueBrain>in this setup, I doubt you want to fix it
14:13<Ammler>I thought the issue is related that we don't rewrite the sender
14:13<TrueBrain>the problem is you are sending an email from an adress you dn't have a return path for
14:13<TrueBrain>(which is because you use aliases to use as maillist)
14:13<TrueBrain>which can be solved by sender rewriting, yes
14:13<@Yexo>Ammler: the mail is rejected because you don't rewrite the sender. openttd.org sends DSN which you can't send back to the sender
14:14<Ammler>TrueBrain: ok, so you just used 1000 other words ot desribe the issue we already were aware of :-P
14:14<TrueBrain>I have no clue what you are aware of or not
14:14<TrueBrain>I just try to keep describing it in different ways till you catch on somewhere
14:14<Ammler>thanks :-)
14:15<Ammler>TrueBrain: still, where is that RFC?
14:15<TrueBrain>ugh, you want all of them?
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14:15<TrueBrain>guess 1891 is most relevant to this case
14:15<Ammler>no, just the one you talk here
14:16<Ammler>I wonder, how ISP works then
14:16<Ammler>or gmail
14:16-!-TGYoshi [~TGYoshi@86.81.146.146] has joined #openttd
14:16<Ammler>I think, the issue here is defined in your spf
14:16<TrueBrain>ISPs, and gmail, dont blindly relay emails
14:17<TrueBrain>they only send emails from addresses they have a return path for
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14:19<@Yexo>Ammler: I can send mail with gmail from my @openttd.org address, but it sends mail via openttd.org
14:19<andythenorth>evening
14:19<@Yexo>gmail connects to openttd.org, which resends the message to the actual target
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14:20<Ammler>Yexo: yes, but that it has to be from openttd.org is not a RFC rule, that is defined in the spf
14:20<SpComb>hmm
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14:21<SpComb>I know plenty of ISP smtp servers that relay mail from addresses they don't accept delivery/forwarding for
14:22<SpComb>and DSNs typically get sent back to the given source address, not returned to the sending mail server, which is what lead to the backscatter problem?
14:22<Ammler>yes, which you would break with SRS
14:25<TrueBrain>SpComb: many of such MXes find themself on blacklists these days :)
14:25<TrueBrain>for a few months it was the easiest way to send spam
14:25<Ammler>bascially you should not alias to addresses you don't have
14:25<TrueBrain>just say you are DSN, and all doors were open :)
14:26<TrueBrain>when writing the SMTP stuff, people had so much faith in the human race: "nobody would ever say they are DSN when they are not, would they? That is only for failure delivers!"
14:26<TrueBrain>its just funny :)
14:26<SpComb>well, that's how DSNs work
14:27<TrueBrain>no, DSN should travel back in the path
14:27<TrueBrain>not blindly transmit to what ever was MAIL FROM
14:27<SpComb>besides, if openttdcoop tries to relay a mail from @openttd.org to @openttd.org, which fails SPF, then the recieving MX should reject it outright, not accept it and generate a DSN..
14:28<SpComb>then the openttdcoop MX could generate the DSN and deliver it... although delivery of that DSN would probably also fail..
14:28<SpComb>although, I guess DSN doesn't keep the origional from addr..
14:28<^Spike^>SpComb it would not probably fail... it does fail
14:29<Ammler>that little bit I read about, you would need content filter, which is silly :-)
14:30<TrueBrain>SpComb: that is a valid question. openttdcoop should generate the DSN. I don't know why this got delegated to mailfiltering in this case, but it is generated from the session from openttdcoop; I can only guess it is because postfix decided it is the legal way .. never read into that :)
14:30<SpComb>it sounds sensible, but I've never heard of an MX that routed generated DSNs back to the MX that connected in
14:30<TrueBrain>SpComb: it happens more often than you think :)
14:30<SpComb>rather than the envelop from addr
14:30<Ammler>that is like your postman opens your mail and changes the sender to his address
14:31*SpComb is responsible for public smtp servers as well
14:31<TrueBrain>Ammler: nothing of this has anything to do with what is inside the email :)
14:32<Ammler>ok, the postman, could put the mail in a new covert and send it that way right
14:33<Ammler>hmm, why doesn't postfix do that?
14:33<TrueBrain>SpComb: in this case openttdcoop explicitly asked to generate a DSN on failure :)
14:33<TrueBrain>NOTIFY command
14:34<TrueBrain>and specially for Ammler: that is defined in RFC 3461
14:35<Ammler>ah, again DSN
14:35<TrueBrain>so in ESMTP, it is up to the MX to deligate DSN generation
14:36<SpComb>buh, too much to think about on a friday evening
14:36<SpComb>someone should just fix email :)
14:36<TrueBrain>SpComb: you started this part yourself :P
14:36<Ammler>TrueBrain: you have any stats, how many mails you reject with that issue?
14:37<TrueBrain>Ammler: which issue are you talking about?
14:37<TrueBrain>failure in SPF, or failure in accepting DSN?
14:37<TrueBrain>(when explictly requested :D)
14:37<Ammler>does this matter?
14:38<TrueBrain>both are different issues
14:38<TrueBrain>so yes
14:38<Ammler>well, our issue is the spf
14:38<TrueBrain>SPF failure rate is unrelated to unable to route back DSN :)
14:38<TrueBrain>"your" issue is more than one issue, which are all a result of eachother
14:41<TrueBrain>random stats: every 1000 emails that arrive for openttd.org (assuming it gets that far in MX communucation
14:41<TrueBrain>980 are rejected
14:41<TrueBrain>350 of them due to SPF failure
14:42<TrueBrain>mostly due to people who try to email from shit like website@ openttd.org
14:42<TrueBrain>download@
14:42<TrueBrain>lolz
14:42<TrueBrain>or "username"@ that tries to email to "username"@ ..
14:42<TrueBrain>silly attempts :)
14:42<CIA-6>OpenTTD: alberth * r23762 /trunk/src/lang/english.txt: -Fix [FS#4954]: Removed double words in three strings, and one change 'cost' to 'income' in english.txt (thanks Tranzistors)
14:42<TrueBrain>no clue if that were stats you were looking for Ammler, but your request was a bit vague to me :(
14:45<@Yexo>that were the stats I was looking for earlier :)
14:45<TrueBrain>sadly, they tell you nothing in relation to your problem :(
14:46*Rubidium never had any problems with sending mail to the openttd mail server
14:46<TrueBrain>SpComb: owh, I stand correct: if no NOTIFY was send, by ESMTP, you MUST generate a DSN :(
14:47<TrueBrain>Rubidium: there is nothing wrong with openttd mail server :) Neither with openttdcoop for that matter.
14:47<Ammler>TrueBrain: that's ok, thanks :-)
14:48<Ammler>a generic rule might be that you should not setup alias to 3rdparty domains
14:48<Ammler>except you have SRS
14:48<TrueBrain>someone should reinvent SMTP :)
14:49<TrueBrain>and not write it from the naive point of view that nobody wants to do harm :(
14:49-!-andythenorth [~Andy@host86-169-180-203.range86-169.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
14:49<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23763 /trunk/src/object_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#4956]: check whether a water tile is really empty when overbuilding it with an object
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14:50<@Alberth>TrueBrain: wouldn't that simply end in not accepting any mail at all?
14:50<TrueBrain>reading through the RFC again (just because I am bored I guess):
14:50<TrueBrain>"
14:50<TrueBrain>When the message
14:50<TrueBrain> is forwarded it will have a new envelope return address. Any DSNs
14:50<TrueBrain> which result from delivery failure of the forwarded message will not
14:50<TrueBrain> be returned to the original sender of the message and thus not expose
14:50<TrueBrain> the recipient's forwarding address.
14:50<TrueBrain>"
14:51<TrueBrain>one of the funny things that are often forgotten :P
14:51<TrueBrain>Alberth: hehe; I guess :)
14:51<TrueBrain>Alberth: forcing SPF for every domain would help a lot tbh :P
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14:55<Ammler>yes, the issue is that spf is not well accepted, postfix without native srs support proves that :-)
14:56<TrueBrain>SPF is well accepted, relaying with SPF isn't ;)
14:56<TrueBrain>has been an issue since the day SPF was invented, sadly
14:56<TrueBrain>reason most people still use ~all I guess :)
14:57<Ammler>TrueBrain: you could set it to that and watch for a month or so
14:57<Ammler>and if the spam really rises, you can still revert it
14:57<TrueBrain>Ammler: been there, done that ;)
14:57<TrueBrain>-all was not my first choice :)
14:58<Ammler>maybe as you had that, you didn't have greylist
14:58<TrueBrain>we did :)
14:58<TrueBrain>and sadly greylisting is less and less efficient
14:59<^Spike^>different experience that i have with it... and use it even on a hosting server...
15:00<TrueBrain>well, 2 years ago, greylisting was very efficient; it catched 80% or so
15:00<TrueBrain>nowedays that number is more like 40%
15:00<^Spike^>here it still seems to catch alot
15:00<TrueBrain>it is based on the idea that spammers are using simple perl scripts to send emails, and don't listen to the reply of the MX. Just send as much as you can as often as you can, and see where it gets you
15:00<TrueBrain>we already have a few scripts that in fact listen to the reply
15:01<TrueBrain>and just requeue an email 5 minutes later
15:01<TrueBrain>very very nasty scripts :(
15:01*^Spike^ is checking exim logs somewhere else...
15:01<^Spike^>and still not seeing a bot resend
15:02<+michi_cc>Yeah, greylisting doesn't help at all if the spam comes from a totally genuine mail server (hacked most likely) complete with TLS encrypted connections and all :(
15:02<TrueBrain>^Spike^: to give you an idea of the volume I talk about, we filter email for thousands of domains; millions of emails flow through these filter systems a day
15:02<TrueBrain>michi_cc: I havent seen TLS yet :P
15:02<TrueBrain>but I have seen the scripts go from a 10 liner to just binary blobs :(
15:03<TrueBrain>I guess the main issue is with the readers. For some reason peopple STILL clikc on these spam messages
15:03<+michi_cc>The only thing left to do at that point is content filtering, but that's always a big problem with false positives.
15:04<TrueBrain>we stopped doing content filtering years ago
15:04<TrueBrain>so many problems that come from it :(
15:04<TrueBrain>a pharmacy company was most enjoyable
15:04<TrueBrain>(no joke, sadly)
15:05<+michi_cc>Sure, but what else to do against spam from valid addresses with valid SPF, valid DomainKeys signature and basically valid everything?
15:05<TrueBrain>I hope SMTP is reinvented by then :P
15:05<TrueBrain>for now they say valid SPF is easy: they either shut down the domain, or blacklist it
15:05<TrueBrain>easier to do than IPs
15:05<TrueBrain>but yeah ...
15:06<TrueBrain>I guess if that happens, the rules of registering domains get much stricter, prices go up up up
15:06<TrueBrain>lolz
15:06<+michi_cc>The problem isn't SMTP, but simply that there are ISP that professionalize in providing these services to spammers.
15:06<TrueBrain>and people clicking on them :D
15:06<SpComb>the wikipedia SRS article has nice background, but... doesn't actually say what SRS is
15:07<TrueBrain>SpComb: SRS is a heavily debated 'solution' for SPF to allow forwarding
15:07<+michi_cc>SpComb: Read the german one :)
15:07<TrueBrain>it is very dodgy
15:07<^Spike^>for neither is proper implementation for alot of MTA's
15:07<TrueBrain>from an old text:
15:07<TrueBrain>SRS is in conflict with existing systems that store information in the envelope sender mailbox name, such as VERPs.
15:07<TrueBrain>SRS is a system that, after even just two levels of forwarding, causes envelope sender mailboxes to become so long that they run the risk of hitting mailbox name length limits in mail softwares.
15:07<TrueBrain>SRS creates the possibility of attackers forging "bounce" messages, reintroducing one of the very things that SPF is touted to (but, ironically, doesn't actually in any case) prevent.
15:08<TrueBrain>written by a dude in 2004
15:08<+michi_cc>Second one is wrong though, at least in the currently accepted SRS.
15:08<TrueBrain>well, that is good ;)
15:09<TrueBrain>I am sure either VERP or SRS died nowedays to :P
15:09<Ammler>google adds this: Return-path: <openttd+bncCPKV0ZbuFRCNo534BBoEopw64g@gmuer.org>
15:10<SpComb>but upshot: if you enable SPF for your domain, you break forwarding of mail from your domain by the receipient
15:10<Ammler>and a envelope-to
15:10<+michi_cc>Ammler: Not relevant to SRS though, as Return-path is content, and not part of the FROM and RCPT SMTP envelope.
15:11<Ammler>michi_cc: well, looks better as srs
15:11<TrueBrain>SpComb: basic rule of thumb: if you enable SPF with -all, don't use non-rewriting aliases on external hosts
15:11<+michi_cc>Ammler: It's a totally different thing though, that has *nothing* to do with the SMTP envelope MX's deal with.
15:12<Ammler>but we might be to get something like that to work, then we don't need SRS
15:12<+michi_cc>Ammler: From the POV of mail transport, everything inside a mail (including all 'From:', 'To;' or whatever) is completely irrelevant.
15:12<Ammler>that's all I mean
15:13<Ammler>for me, SRS looks very hackish
15:13<TrueBrain>it doesn't only look hackish
15:13<TrueBrain>it is
15:13<TrueBrain>it is a solution to a problem created by SPF
15:13<TrueBrain>an "unwated" side-effect
15:14<TrueBrain>personally, I dont see it as such. I dno't want to email to a maillist which forwards my email blindly. I want it to rewrite it, so replies go back to the maillist :)
15:14<TrueBrain>"reply-all" button is often not used by so many people .. ugh .. those days :(
15:14<Ammler>yes, just put the mail in a new envelope and you get your lovely DSN to work :-P
15:14<TrueBrain>dont know if you ever had that, that you email a maillist, and you get a personal reply back, because the dude forgot to hit Reply All
15:14<TrueBrain>so you forward it to the maillist
15:14<TrueBrain>and the Re and Fwd stack up
15:15<Ammler>gmail web doesn't support that
15:15<Ammler>if you hit reply there, you do not send to the maillist
15:15<TrueBrain>nowedays maillists rewrite the from to a single address: the list
15:15-!-sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.26.172] has joined #openttd
15:16<TrueBrain>or, my personal favorite: have mail read-only, and a webinterface to reply :)
15:16<TrueBrain>like ... our bug tracker :D
15:16<SpComb>TrueBrain: but SPF happens on the sender address, and the alias/forwarding happens on the recipient address :)
15:17<SpComb>unrelated policy actions
15:17<TrueBrain>SpComb: that causes the unwanted side-effects :)
15:17<TrueBrain>it basically killed all simple 'aliases' maillists
15:17<SpComb>dunno, we do forwarding
15:17<TrueBrain>that is forwarding :D
15:18-!-TdlQ_ [~TdlQ@hq.z77.fr] has joined #openttd
15:18<SpComb>i.e. user@ourdomain.fi -> <their current email address that they actually read>
15:18<SpComb>typical .forward setup (but in LDAP)
15:18<TrueBrain>that is called an alias ;)
15:18<SpComb>but then also 'alias' maillists and other stuff internally, but SPF shouldn't affect anything there
15:19<TrueBrain>and that is were many people consider SPF 'broken'
15:19<SpComb>and yeah, I guess those user@ forwards break with SPF on the sender domain
15:19<TrueBrain>truth is, that SMTP was never intended to work like that; we only all got used to abusing it that way. And that causes a lot of discussion
15:19<TrueBrain>and then you get solutions like SRS :P
15:19<SpComb>but how else could they be done :/
15:19<SpComb>I mean, the alias-forwards, in our case
15:20<TrueBrain>basically, if I email from host A to host B, and it forwards it to host C, host C should, upon reply, go via host B (ideal world)
15:20<TrueBrain>that would allow internal domains for mail delivery
15:20<TrueBrain>this never got mainstream
15:20<TrueBrain>and is kinda impossible these days
15:21<TrueBrain>SPF is build on this idea, to put it in easy terms
15:21<TrueBrain>what we commonly do, is mail from host A to host B, which is forwarded to host C, enters host C as if it came from host A
15:21<TrueBrain>host C doesnt see host B
15:21<TrueBrain>this is an SPF failure
15:21<TrueBrain>and has no real solution
15:22<SpComb>sadface
15:22<TrueBrain>many call it abuse of forwarding
15:22<TrueBrain>others call it "but it always used to work"
15:22<SpComb>host B should tell host A to send the mail to host C instead :)
15:22<TrueBrain>now .. 8 years later
15:22<TrueBrain>still no solution :(
15:23<TrueBrain>SpComb: that would be one valid solution
15:23<SpComb>but I'm sure that's also vulnerable to abuse in some way
15:23<TrueBrain>every solution will be abused by some people :)
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15:23<TrueBrain>either by spammers or legit users :P
15:24<@Alberth>or both :p
15:24<TrueBrain>so basically, use maillists, not aliases :P
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15:25<TrueBrain>(where a maillist, if you follow the RFC definitions, is one that rewrites the Mail From, and an alias doesnt)
15:25<TrueBrain>(forward is ambigious, hence the clarification in those 2 tersm :))
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15:40<Eddi|zuHause>cool, you can see a large ring around the moon
15:41<frosch123>moon got a moon?
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15:43<Eddi|zuHause>more like a rainbow :)
15:43<Eddi|zuHause>(only not coloured)
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16:13<andythenorth>this video is quite awesome from 1min onwards http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=T4FIS1FnOQg
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16:19<Eddi|zuHause>ERROR: unable to write data: [Errno 28] No space left on device
16:20*Alberth though space had infinite size
16:21<@Alberth>*thought
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>the forum looks weird...
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>it has "summer" text colours, but "winter" background...
16:23<welshdragon>yeah
16:23<welshdragon>bugs my eyes to s***
16:27<@Alberth>clear your browser cache :)
16:32-!-TomyLobo2 [~foo@p4FC22379.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
16:37<andythenorth>switch your forum theme :P
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16:39<andythenorth>is this ottd? http://www.flickr.com/photos/maciej_drwiega/6606344519/sizes/o/in/set-72157628650057159/
16:39<andythenorth>or is it plastic pixels :P
16:40<Rubidium>that can't be OpenTTD. It's 32bpp and unrealistically scaled!
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16:49<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23764 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 4 dirs): -Fix [FS#4955]: make default timeouts for certain states lower and configurable
16:49<appe_>stop ruining a perfect game with 3d implications.
16:49<appe_>:(
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17:19<CIA-6>OpenTTD: translators * r23765 /trunk/src/lang/ (8 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
17:19<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:19<CIA-6>OpenTTD: dutch - 7 changes by Yexo
17:19<CIA-6>OpenTTD: english_US - 5 changes by Rubidium
17:19<CIA-6>OpenTTD: french - 8 changes by glx
17:19<CIA-6>OpenTTD: german - 2 changes by planetmaker
17:19<CIA-6>OpenTTD: italian - 1 changes by lorenzodv
17:22<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23766 /trunk/ (6 files in 4 dirs): -Update: some documentation
17:25<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23767 /tags/1.2.0-beta2/: -Release: 1.2.0-beta2
17:28<Eddi|zuHause>hm, i don't suppose nml supports the ** operator?
17:29<frosch123>it supports << :)
17:29<Eddi|zuHause>not what i'm looking for :)
17:30<Eddi|zuHause>basically i want "inflation_offset = (1.04/1.03)**(start_year-1920)
17:32<Rubidium>without floating point math that looks pretty difficult
17:32<Eddi|zuHause>i see... i'll end up making a lookup table i believe
17:32<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: I don't think that inflation should be priced into the running costs
17:33<Elukka>what if you play with inflation of?
17:33<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: it makes a big difference if you start in 1990 or start in 1880 and play until 1990
17:33<Elukka>*off
17:34<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: then the factor will be 1
17:34<Eddi|zuHause>assuming i can actually read that flag
17:35*andythenorth ponders
17:35<andythenorth>bed or code?
17:35<Eddi|zuHause>code in bed?
17:35<andythenorth>+1
17:35<Eddi|zuHause>we say "zwei Fliegen mit einer Klappe"
17:36<Eddi|zuHause>(or "Klatsche")
17:36<Rubidium>andythenorth: you have to evaluate your bed and only if that returns nothing you start with code
17:36*andythenorth does that
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17:39<@planetmaker>sleep well, andythenorth :-)
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17:41<appe_>hm, i wonder
17:42<appe_>what does primary make new industries form on a map?
17:43<andythenorth>?
17:44<@Yexo><Eddi|zuHause> basically i want "inflation_offset = (1.04/1.03)**(start_year-1920) <- that's impossible to implement in nml
17:45<@Yexo>except when you limit both values to constants, in which case it would be useless
17:45<andythenorth>why not fix ottd?
17:45<andythenorth>inflation is broken
17:45-!-welshdragon [~welshdrag@client-86-31-1-3.midd.adsl.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: welshdragon]
17:45<andythenorth>why another newgrf hack :P
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17:51*andythenorth boards the sleep train :)
17:51<andythenorth>good night
17:57<__ln__>http://www.nbl.fi/~nbl3392/kuvat/Berlin-Hauptstadt-der-Schweiz.jpg
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18:00<Eddi|zuHause>is that the swiss embassy?
18:01<__ln__>no idea actually, though would seem logical.
18:05<Eddi|zuHause>google maps says yes
18:05<Eddi|zuHause>http://maps.google.de/maps/place?cid=1617172155375758509&q=Berlin,+Schweizer+Botschaft&hl=de&ved=0CBMQ-gswAA&sa=X&ei=s30HT4GtCcvLsgb4m6ScBg&sig2=C2Tnp4d0OSIfVq3lIieDjA
18:08<Eddi|zuHause>"Building was constructed 1871, became property of switzerland in 1919 and used continuously as swiss consulate, survived the reconstruction of central berlin under the nazis and WWII"
18:10<Eddi|zuHause>"that makes it the closest embassy to the federal power center (Reichstag and Kanzleramt)
18:12<__ln__>a big swiss flag being the first sight of berlin was a bit surprising
18:16-!-Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd
18:21<@Terkhen>good night
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18:24<BUTTMUNCH>love what you guys are doign with openttd
18:24<BUTTMUNCH>pls add hookers
18:24<BUTTMUNCH>mite b cool
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18:28<welshdragon>Where's an admin when you need one to ban someone?
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18:28<__ln__>whom?
18:28<welshdragon>buttmunch
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18:29<BUTTMUNCH>wow, ban me because i pull a little joke?
18:29<welshdragon>it's inapproriate - we're family friendly in here
18:29<@planetmaker>no, because of a yelling nick name and poor spelling ;-)
18:29<__ln__>if i were an op, i would ban you for your nick, not for the joke.
18:29<@planetmaker>@topic get -1
18:29<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: English only
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18:29<BUTTMUNCH>haha
18:29<BUTTMUNCH>sorry, it’s my secondary nickname for when i d/c
18:29-!-BUTTMUNCH is now known as iddqd
18:30<Eddi|zuHause>how's that an explanation?
18:30<iddqd>how is it not? you fill in a first nickname, and a 2nd nickname in mirc
18:30<Elukka>but it's a great nickname
18:30<iddqd>i thought so too
18:31-!-mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-106-230.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:31<iddqd>but some people don’t seem to like it :(
18:31<__ln__>i guess hookers could be added using a newgrf, but not sure how exactly would they fit in the game.
18:32<iddqd>maybe like an extra service during train passenger transportation
18:32<iddqd>you get extra $$ for tickets
18:34<Elukka>but surely they would be independent operators rather than part of your transportation company
18:34<iddqd>yes
18:34<iddqd>but they pay you to be on your train
18:36<Eddi|zuHause>MB once said he implemented a "red light district" :)
18:36<__ln__>i declare your suggestion to be out of scope of the game.
18:38<Eddi|zuHause><iddqd> maybe like an extra service during train passenger transportation <-- and which country offers that service?!?
18:38<welshdragon>in Soviet Russia
18:39<iddqd>hmmmm
18:39<iddqd>hahaha yeah
18:42-!-swissfan91 [5e0a1d27@ircip1.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd
18:42<swissfan91>on the devzone - how do I delete an old version of a tracking table I have uploaded?
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18:43<@planetmaker>that's a bit unspecific
18:44<Elukka>"Montreal-Mirabel International Airport was the largest airport ever envisioned, with a planned surface area of 397 square kilometers. That's larger than Montreal, the city that it served."
18:44<Elukka>how very ttd
18:45<Rubidium>imagine how big it'd be when it'd be an intercontinental airport
18:45<swissfan91>sorry I'm new to this whole devzone malarky.
18:45<swissfan91>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/3414
18:45<@planetmaker>if you have the proper permissions, you find a waste bin icon next to the filename
18:46<swissfan91>ah, that'll be it then!
18:46<@planetmaker>on the other hand... the date of upload is listed right next to the filename. Thus it's always clear what is newest
18:46<swissfan91>indeed, yes.
18:46<swissfan91>I just thought I was being simple :)
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18:47<@planetmaker>:-)
18:48<@planetmaker>swissfan91: wrt tracking table: did you consider to use a google docs spreadsheet?
18:49<@planetmaker>it avoids imho all kind of issues as all people who may can edit it and always have an up-to-date version of the document
18:49<swissfan91>I only copied the standard gauge table Yoshi created. Perhaps I'll ask him.
18:49<swissfan91>it does sound like a good idea, yes.
18:49<swissfan91>does google docs tell you who has been changing it, and where?
18:49<@planetmaker>https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?authkey=CO2PmdYG&key=0AkXAVZqXTFQxdHM3UlpWM1hPZWpfeTlkdnZsMldjSkE
18:49<swissfan91>I could envisage it becoming a little annoying.
18:50<@planetmaker>only those people who were given write access can
18:50<Snail_>hi planetameker
18:50<Snail_>I was wondering if you had had the chance to have a look at the custom tunnel sprites I sent you?
18:50<Snail_>:)
18:51<Elukka>oh yeah
18:51<@planetmaker>hi Snail_
18:51<Elukka>Eddi|zuHause: there's an entirely unrelated set called CETS that stands for the same thing that was active in.. late 2010/early 2011 or so
18:51<Elukka>i dunno if it's dead
18:51<@planetmaker>I started somewhat. But there's nothing which works so far
18:52<Snail_>ok
18:52<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: we discussed that half a year ago already
18:52<Elukka>i see
18:52<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: and decided to just go ahead
18:52<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: and that was more like a southeastern europe set
18:54<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: what does the "core core core core" mean for wagons?
18:55<@planetmaker>why the multiple string?
18:55<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: it's triplets: (bav, core, 1), (sax, core, 1) etc.
18:55<Snail_>I talked a little bit with michi_cc yesterday, he suggested me to shorten the northbound (NE and bowls a bit
18:55<Snail_>(NE ad NW
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18:56<@planetmaker>maybe, yes....
18:56<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: e.g. the ET 171 (S-Bahn Hamburg) has (DRG, ext, 2) and (DB, core, 3)
18:56<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: as it doesn't really make a lot of sense appearing for DR
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18:57<@planetmaker>ah, ok
18:57<@planetmaker>I understand :-)
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18:58<+michi_cc>planetmaker: http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/patches/tunnel_in_game.png and http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/895/
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18:58<@planetmaker>he, so you coded it already? :-)
18:59<+michi_cc>Changing OTTD was trivial, finding the right offsets for the graphics not so much :)
18:59<swissfan91>they look a little... large?
18:59<@planetmaker>and yes, I have to agree that the Northbound grass cover for the tubes should stretch more
18:59<@planetmaker>it bends quite different from the South-bound
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19:00<Snail_>back, comp crashed
19:01<frosch123>so we finally get non-railtype specfic tunnels?
19:01<swissfan91>maybe they'd look better viewed in Ogfx? they seem to suit that more.
19:02<Snail_>well, I'm drawing some sprites that can be the base on which custom tunnel portals can be built
19:02<Snail_>they just include the grass/desert/snow, the slope and the area around the portal
19:03<Snail_>then, a railtype set could ideally provide its own graphics for the track and the portals
19:04<swissfan91>when I think of France, I think of these tunnels .. http://www.la-clau.net/imatges/noticia/tunel_del_pertus_febrer_2009_la_clau.jpg
19:04<frosch123>hmm, i don't see what the 16 sprites represent
19:04<frosch123>4 per direction
19:04<frosch123>one below the rail, one above
19:04<frosch123>what are the other two ?
19:04<frosch123>snow? grass density?
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19:05<Snail_>frosch123: what sprites are you referring to?
19:07<frosch123>+static const uint16 RAILTYPE_TUNNEL_BASE_COUNT = 16; <- those :p
19:08<Eddi|zuHause><frosch123> so we finally get non-railtype specfic tunnels? <-- no, we get railtype specific tunnels in the first place
19:10<Snail_>2 for the landscape and 2 for the portal for each direction
19:10<Snail_>the landscape would be provided by OTTD (it's what I'm trying to draw now ;) )
19:10<Snail_>and the portals by the rail
19:14<+michi_cc>frosch123: Grass and snow/desert.
19:15<frosch123>no grass densities?
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19:15<Snail_>basically they get drawn with this order: (1) the landscape behind and below the train; (2) the track and the part of the portal behind the train; (3) the landscape above; (4) the part of the portal above the train
19:15<Snail_>so, 4 parts
19:15<@planetmaker>hm, very good point
19:15<@planetmaker>we should start providing it for all snow and grass densities
19:16<swissfan91>grassy tt-forums have returned! at least on mine..
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19:21<+michi_cc>frosch123: If snail draws them... But then, the original tunnel portals don't have that either.
19:21<@planetmaker>michi_cc: then we draw it all the new way ;-)
19:21<@planetmaker>but providing that for all grass densities makes much sense
19:22<@planetmaker>otherwise we make the path to nicer snow densities again much more difficult
19:22<@planetmaker>or rather ugly, if not more difficult
19:22<frosch123>hmm, original tunnels don't have that? :o
19:22<@planetmaker>nope
19:22<@planetmaker>snow transition anywhere not plain terrain is binary
19:22<frosch123>hmm, ok, then we should make it consistent with that
19:22<@planetmaker>as is desert transition
19:23<frosch123>more is fore action 123 new landscape then :)
19:23<@planetmaker>:-D
19:23<@planetmaker>Do you think a Feature for landscape is acceptable?
19:23<@planetmaker>Probably would need a test, eh?
19:24<frosch123>as long as it does not get animation or similiar cb-heavy stuff
19:24<frosch123>(so it does not increase the cpu load for stuff not being visible)
19:24<frosch123>zoom-out is slow anyway :p
19:25<frosch123>there is that smallmap-like zoomout on the forums
19:25<frosch123>maybe we should do that already for the current 8x zoom out
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19:25<Snail_>are snow densities implemented already?
19:25<@planetmaker>Snail_: they are in TTD
19:26<@planetmaker>and newgrfs have that variable for eons
19:26<@planetmaker>at least industries and houses
19:26<@planetmaker>implicitly via the snow height
19:27<@planetmaker>thus full snow awareness is mostly a matter of coding effort
19:27<@planetmaker>exceptions are bridges (no info at all) and railtypes (only snow yes/no)
19:27<Snail_>but the tunnel sprites are all the same
19:27<@planetmaker>as they have both no tileheight info
19:29<@planetmaker>FIRS: have a look at the new FIRS or at OpenGFX+ Airports
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19:37<Snail_>I'd say to finalize the general shape first, using the grassy temperate sprites... once the general shading and length of the "bowl" are finalized, I can start drawing other landscapes and grass/snow densities
19:38<@planetmaker>that makes sense
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19:51<Snail_>I'll probably enhance those sprites during the weekend ;)
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19:52<frosch123>night
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20:15<welshdragon>the reason why I need copy and paste: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5811013/Railtrack%2C%201999-02-04.png
20:15<welshdragon>trying to recreate that is going to be messy
20:16<welshdragon>(or even savegame compatibilty, but meh...
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20:38<Eddi|zuHause>i have never ever had a use case for copy-paste
20:39<welshdragon>nope, I can't do it....
20:39<welshdragon>brain. cannot. compute.
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20:41<@planetmaker>welshdragon: why would I want to re-create something which I have already?
20:41<@planetmaker>especially via c&p?
20:41<welshdragon>planetmaker: because I like to play the same map over and over and over again?
20:42<@planetmaker>The easier approach there seems to me the "play me" button. Available via the AI of your choice
20:42<welshdragon>>AI
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20:51<Wolf01>'night
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---Logclosed Sat Jan 07 00:01:00 2012