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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-01-08

---Logopened Sun Jan 08 00:00:05 2012
---Daychanged Sun Jan 08 2012
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03:04<andythenorth>hola
03:14<@peter1138>huups
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03:41<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23772 /trunk/src/lang/latvian.txt: -Fix (r23771): validation failure
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04:09<@Terkhen>good morning
04:11<andythenorth>bonjour
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04:17<andythenorth>does anyone play with 'vehicles never expire' *off*?
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04:26<SmatZ>andythenorth: those who play with default settings, I guess :)
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04:29<V453000>is that still as default? :o
04:29<V453000>also hi SmatZ :)
04:29*andythenorth is wondering how much effort to put into keeping a short buy menu
04:29<SmatZ>hello V453000 :-)
04:30<andythenorth>if I try and keep the menu short, but everyone has 'vehicles never expire'....kind of pointless :P
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04:30<V453000>hehe andy :)
04:31<V453000>well you could put sort the vehicle ID by date of release of the vehicle, or by the "usefulness" of the vehicle so people buy the first few in the top of the list
04:32<V453000>but I personally like more to sort by vehicle type
04:32<V453000>like all passenger trains together, etc
04:32<V453000>and since there are all the filters, one can always sort it his way and choose from the top I guess
04:34-!-LSky` [~x@82-169-93-67.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #openttd
04:34<LSky`>sup
04:35<LSky`>if anyone with knowledge of servers is around,
04:35<LSky`>im trying to run a 1.1.4 dedicated server, but its not receiving a session key from the master server, no errors, it just doesnt advertise at all
04:35<LSky`>th 1.2.0-beta2 server works fine, no issues
04:35<Rubidium>99% chance your firewall blocks stuff
04:36<LSky`>that would get the error
04:36<LSky`>i solved that
04:36<LSky`>i forward both 3979 for 1.1.4 and 3980 for 1.2.0
04:36<LSky`>the 1.2.0 works great, even if I change the port to 3979
04:36<Rubidium>works fine with my 1.1.4
04:37<LSky`>yeah, hence I wondered what the issue was
04:37<LSky`>it doesnt say that its unable to receive the key
04:37<LSky`>it seems like its not even asking for one
04:37<LSky`>when I clearly enable advertising
04:37<SpComb>tcpdump?
04:38<LSky`>i hate to say this but
04:38<LSky`>how do I do that :D
04:39<SpComb>sudo tcpdump -f 'host <masterserver>'
04:39<LSky`>running it on windows
04:39<SpComb>orly
04:39<LSky`>quite
04:40<SpComb>if you're desperate, install wireshark and try there
04:40<SpComb>it'll tell you if you're even sending anything out, or seeing any UDP back
04:40<SpComb>not that I know what your actual issue is
04:41<LSky`>well i just double checked the port
04:41-!-Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd
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04:41<LSky`>it also works with the 1.2.0-beta2 server if I change it back to 3979 there
04:41<LSky`>so its not a firewall issue
04:42<LSky`>the odd thing is, it get queried
04:42<LSky`>but not very often
04:43<LSky`>actually now Icheck it, it does actually get queried just as much as the other server :\
04:45<LSky`>it gets queried but it doesnt show up in the list... :|
04:45<LSky`>now thats weird
04:47<SpComb>are you looking in the right place in the list? :)
04:48<LSky`>the server list on the site and in the server browser
04:48<LSky`>but im not surprised that it doesnt show up, no messages that its being advertised show up in that server's console
04:50<LSky`>i got wireshark working, looking at the traffic now, what should I be looking for?
04:50<SpComb>dunno, UDP to/from master server?
04:51<LSky`>well I guess it somehow works
04:51<LSky`>since someone just connected the instant I put it up
04:52<LSky`>yet it doesnt advertise again, what is this i dont even :(
04:53<LSky`>haha okay im an idiot
04:53<LSky`>-_-
04:53<LSky`>problem solved :D
04:54<LSky`>i think..
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05:01<LSky`>yeah, its just ignoring the cfg file
05:02<LSky`>"...\OpenTTD 1.1.4\openttd.exe" -D -c 114.cfg as a shortcut should work right?
05:06<@planetmaker>moin
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05:12<LSky`>Also, "You have a newer version of OpenTTD, Setup will now exit" fffffffffff
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05:35<SpComb>LSky`: just use the .zip's
05:35<LSky`>I did, unfortunately a reinstall didnt work
05:35<LSky`>I thought I did something wrong with pointing it to the right cfg, but for some reason it wont do what I want it do :D
05:36<LSky`>it just, doesnt use a config at all
05:36<@Alberth>the readme explains in great detail how the cfg file is found
05:37<LSky`>which is why i asked; "...\OpenTTD 1.1.4\openttd.exe" -D -c 114.cfg as a shortcut should work right?
05:38<@Yexo>LSky`: if you point it to a location where it isn't allowed to write a file, it can't make a new config file
05:38<@Yexo>LSky`: whether or not that works depends on what the working directory is when you execute that link, and also where the config file is
05:38<LSky`>so it doesnt automatically search for the config file in the normal folder?
05:39<@Yexo>which "normal folder"?
05:39<LSky`>`> I thought I did something wrong with pointing it to the right cfg, but for some reason it wont do what I want it do :D
05:39<LSky`>[11:32:am] <LSky`> it
05:39<LSky`>woops
05:39<@Yexo>as Alberth already said: see readme.txt
05:39<LSky`>C:\Users\LSky\Documents\OpenTTD
05:39<@Yexo>unless that is the working directory, no
05:40<@Yexo>use -c C:\Users\LSky\Documents\OpenTTD\114.cfg to have it use that file
05:40<andythenorth>ow
05:40*andythenorth has brain ache
05:41<LSky`>thanks, that did actually work
05:41<LSky`>which only makes me wonder why the 1.2.0-beta2 server works without specifying the folder
05:41<andythenorth>multi-trailer trucks, number of trailers refittable by cargo subtype abuse
05:41<andythenorth>first trailer capacity might be split with truck
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05:42<andythenorth>^ try templating that efficiently :P
05:50<@Alberth>m4 supports computations and conditional inclusion of text
05:51<andythenorth>m4 is not nml :P
05:51<andythenorth>afaik
05:51<andythenorth>also...
05:51*andythenorth waves and points at rv-wagons
05:52<@Alberth>cpp is also not nml :)
05:54<andythenorth>+1
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06:05*andythenorth figures it out. maybe
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06:08*Alberth has full confidence in andy
06:10*andythenorth might be about to learn about IDs in nml the hard way :P
06:10<andythenorth>if I wasn't obsessed about having my CPP includes in alphabetical order, life would be easier :/
06:11<@planetmaker>lol
06:12<@planetmaker>andythenorth, just prefix them with 001_myname and 015_anothername etc
06:12<@planetmaker>then all is in good order ;-)
06:12<andythenorth>valid
06:12<andythenorth>:P
06:12<andythenorth>or I should deliberately disorder them now
06:12<andythenorth>removing temptation to try and keep them ordered
06:21<@Alberth>only local order?
06:22<andythenorth>?
06:23<@Alberth>if I include A, B, and C, and A includes E, then the order of processing in A E B C which is not alphabetical
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06:25<@Alberth>Justkidding!! /me hugs andythenorth
06:25<andythenorth>:)
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06:57<andythenorth>does nml automatically take care of splitting a cb for the buy menu chain?
06:58<@planetmaker>no. But each CB should have a purchase version
06:58<@planetmaker>if you don't define that one, though, the normal CB is used
06:58<andythenorth>thanks
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07:27<frosch123>so, who has a big endian machine and can make a screenshot using a 32bpp blitter?
07:31<andythenorth>core 2 duo is little endian?
07:31*andythenorth google for self
07:31<frosch123>all intel stuff uses le
07:32<@planetmaker>__ln__, could do on his G4
07:39<TrueBrain>basically, only old computers are BE :P
07:40<frosch123>BE is like using decimal number representation in the cpui
07:40<frosch123>-i
07:40*andythenorth used to be big endian
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07:45<__ln__>afaik Wii, PS3 and Xbox360 are BE
07:47<CIA-6>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r23773 /trunk/src/ (rail_cmd.cpp saveload/vehicle_sl.cpp train.h train_cmd.cpp): -Change: [NewGRF] Update all cached train properties if a train vehicle enters a new railtype.
07:55<frosch123>hmm, would a "newgrf suggestion forum" be fun? :p
07:55<TrueBrain>fun, yes
07:55<TrueBrain>useful .. not sure :P
07:55<andythenorth>suggestions for newgrfs?
07:55<andythenorth>or suggestions for newgrf spec features? :P
07:55<frosch123>the former of course
07:56<frosch123>there is a suggestions forum in the ottd and ttdp section, but not in the graphics section
07:56<andythenorth>can it be hidden from my view?
07:56<andythenorth>maybe a browser plugin could do that :P
07:56<frosch123>you mean that would increase the usefulness?
07:56<andythenorth>yes
07:56<andythenorth>greatly
07:56<frosch123>TrueBrain: see, it has use
07:57<TrueBrain>there is a use in the hiding of the use
07:57<TrueBrain>hmmm
07:57<TrueBrain>this is getting tricky :P
07:58<frosch123>it's like a spam filter
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07:58<Wolf01>hi o/
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08:05<andythenorth>there's nothing so fun as figuring out why the buy menu reports wrong capacity :P
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08:09<Eddi|zuHause>we need step-by-step callback debugging
08:10<andythenorth>position in consist can't be evaluated during buy menu, yes/no?
08:10<andythenorth>also cargo subtype
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08:12<Eddi|zuHause>none of the 40+/80+ variables
08:12<andythenorth>I just solved this in HEQS, can't remember how :D
08:13*andythenorth rummages
08:13<Eddi|zuHause>make front and tail different IDs, and report all capacity in the front
08:14<andythenorth>yup
08:14<andythenorth>or fake it on the trailers for buy menu switch
08:14<andythenorth>either way, fake it :P
08:15<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: are you sure that is useful with nml?
08:16*andythenorth fakes it
08:17<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i don't understand the question
08:17<frosch123>the step-by-step debugging
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08:18<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: need debugging symbols in nml :p
08:19*andythenorth needs a code generator :P
08:20<andythenorth>or maybe not :)
08:21<andythenorth>hmm
08:21<andythenorth>how do I know when I'm abstracting too far with CPP?
08:21<Eddi|zuHause>nml has at least 3 code generators builtin
08:22<andythenorth>if you have to open > n templates to find the actual code, it's too many
08:22<andythenorth>what's n?
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08:22*andythenorth thinks n = 2
08:22<Eddi|zuHause>just make it for arbitrary numbers, and then every n is just a special case
08:22<@Alberth>7 ? (that's the number of things a human can manage to do at the same time)
08:25<Eddi|zuHause>i currently have tracking table -> generate.py -> processing.py -> write.py -> tree.py -> vehicle template -> alignment template -> png file
08:26<Eddi|zuHause>occasionally also a custom callbacks file
08:26*andythenorth might do evil with #ifdef
08:26<Eddi|zuHause>that's really the least evil i do :p
08:27<@Alberth>it is evil by definition, almost :)
08:27<andythenorth>can cpp evaluate a value?
08:27<Eddi|zuHause>no
08:27<andythenorth>e.g. if #define NUM_TRAILERS 2
08:27<andythenorth>:P
08:27<Eddi|zuHause>that's why we have nml
08:27<@Alberth>yes, but only for internal use :)
08:28*andythenorth could concatenate paths
08:28*Alberth refrains from recommending a different macro expansion engine
08:28<andythenorth>more evil
08:28<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: it can only evaluate plain constants, not do any calculations
08:29<andythenorth>might work fine
08:29<andythenorth>otherwise I have #define NUM_TRAILERS_IS_1 True
08:29<andythenorth>etc
08:30<Eddi|zuHause>you can do:
08:30<Eddi|zuHause>#define NUM_TRAILERS 2
08:30<Eddi|zuHause>#if NUM_TRAILERS == 1
08:30<andythenorth>k
08:30<Eddi|zuHause>#elsif NUM_TRAILERS == 2
08:30<andythenorth>thanks
08:30<Eddi|zuHause>or similar
08:33<andythenorth>works
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08:35<andythenorth>if I was really smart I'd switch in nml :P
08:35<andythenorth>instead of relying on hardcoded things
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08:40<TrueBrain>so the question is: are you? :P
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09:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: frosch * r23774 /trunk/readme.txt: -Fix: Wrong path in readme.txt
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10:16<Fixer>ohi, i need some info on STR_GOAL_QUESTION_BUTTON_SURRENDER(etc), don't know how to translate it, can somebody explain what is the meaning of that STR_GOAL_QUESTION_BUTTON form?
10:18<@Yexo>goal scripts can open a window with question
10:18<@Yexo>the goal script can chose up to 3 pre-defined buttons to add to that window
10:18<Fixer>question to the player?
10:18<@Yexo>yes
10:18<Eddi|zuHause>Fixer: a game script can ask the player a question, like: "your mission would be to infiltrate the casino: [Accept], [Deny Existence], [Self destruct]"
10:18<@Yexo>can be anything
10:18<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, the button text is pre-defined
10:18<Fixer>oh ok!
10:18<@Yexo>can also be a simpel message, like "You've reached part 1 out of 3. [ok], [cancel]"
10:19<Fixer>SURRENDER is pre-defined message
10:19<@planetmaker>yes
10:19<Fixer>ok thanks
10:19<@planetmaker>it's one of the possible buttons
10:19<@Yexo>some of the others might be hard to translate
10:19<@planetmaker>indeed
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10:20<@planetmaker>I was quite struggling with some. "next" is quite ambiguous. As is previous etc
10:20<Eddi|zuHause>Yes/No/FileNotFound
10:20<Fixer>yeah :D
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10:21<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: "weiter"/"zurück"?
10:21<Fixer>or Go
10:22<@planetmaker>maybe, Eddi|zuHause
10:22<Eddi|zuHause>the problem is, for translation you need context, and the context is given by the game scripts, which may not be written yet
10:22<@planetmaker>exactly
10:22<+michi_cc>For some of these button texts it might make sense to look at what your OS generally uses for them.
10:30<Fixer>struggling with 'go'
10:30<Eddi|zuHause>Fixer: what's on the monopoly board?
10:34<frosch123>"go" as in "let's go"
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10:35<Fixer>ok
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11:00<andythenorth>nml is pretty epic
11:00<andythenorth>what's truly epic about it though is the documentation
11:02<@planetmaker>I hope that was not ironic ;-)
11:02<andythenorth>nope
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11:04<supermop_>what are you doing in nml today, andy?
11:04<frosch123>robbing and thiefing
11:05<andythenorth>yup
11:05<andythenorth>meh
11:05*andythenorth just saw a flaw in a beautiful plan :/
11:06<@planetmaker>throw enough beautiful sprites on it so that the flaw will be hidden ;-)
11:06<andythenorth>if I have a vehicle with 1 trailer, I want a subtype refit string "No trailer"
11:06<andythenorth>and if a vehicle has 2 trailers, I want a subtype string "No trailers"
11:06<andythenorth>which I've just coded :P
11:06<@planetmaker>yes?
11:06<andythenorth>breaks refitting
11:06<andythenorth>when using auto-replace
11:07<andythenorth>probably
11:07<andythenorth>haven't tested yet :P
11:07<@planetmaker>if it's different vehicles I don't see how it breaks
11:07<andythenorth>might be ok because it's first refittable type
11:08<supermop_>no trailer, singular still makes sense for a vehicle that normally has 2
11:08<Hirundo>As long as its both subtype X, the string doesn't matter methinks
11:08<andythenorth>hmm
11:08<andythenorth>frosch123: what got fixed recently with auto-replace and subtypes?
11:08<supermop_>a truck with no trailer has no trailer regardless of what its has at other times
11:09<andythenorth>supermop_: yes, but it's nicer with the optional s
11:09<andythenorth>:)
11:10<andythenorth>hmm
11:10<andythenorth>HEQS trams hide invisible trailers inside the length of the visible vehicles
11:10<andythenorth>don't think I can do that here
11:10<andythenorth>templates will be spaghetti if I do that
11:11<frosch123>andythenorth: it not considers all articulated parts when searching for a subtype with the same name
11:11<frosch123>s/not/now/
11:11<andythenorth>thanks
11:12<supermop_>ok you guys keep up the good work, i am off to get lunch
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11:21<Eddi|zuHause>dear oberhümer... WHAT DID I SAY ABOUT EMPTY LINES IN THE TRACKING TABLE!
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11:22<frosch123>remove them?
11:23<andythenorth>so
11:23<andythenorth>nml I can't reuse switch identifiers, unlike varaction 2 IDs in nfo?
11:23<andythenorth>not a problem...just checking...
11:23<@planetmaker>nope, it can't
11:23<Eddi|zuHause>no, identifiers must be unique
11:24<andythenorth>k
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11:24<andythenorth>lots more CPP concatenation then :P
11:24<Eddi|zuHause>which lead me to my VEH_ID(evilness)
11:24<andythenorth>I am there too
11:24<@planetmaker>welcome :-)
11:25<andythenorth>I am using it in a more verbose way, because my brain recoils at seeing it in expressions
11:25<@planetmaker>whatever helps the understanding
11:25<andythenorth>i.e. I define a constant, then use it wherever
11:25<@planetmaker>the bits come nearly at no cost ;-)
11:26<Eddi|zuHause>a cost of a 5 minute compilation time...
11:26<andythenorth>means I don't have to concatenate things with my brain :P
11:26<andythenorth>6s for BANDIT currently
11:27<andythenorth>3s for HEQS (nfo)
11:27<andythenorth>adequate
11:27<Eddi|zuHause>hmz... the parameter description doesn't resize on number of lines
11:27<@planetmaker>well... OpenGFX takes MUCH longer, if you include the gimp part
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11:47<andythenorth>biab
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11:54<rasco>hi
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11:57<rasco>so... i've got a question:
11:57<iddqd>no no no no no no no
11:57<rasco>all the cost amounts, like running costs, purchase costs etc. they can only be multiplied by 2's right??
11:58<CIA-6>OpenTTD: frosch * r23775 /trunk/src/ (screenshot.cpp screenshot.h settings_gui.cpp): -Change: Hide the PCX screenshot format from the options window, if a 32bpp blitter is used.
11:59<rasco>is there a way to set really custom costs with a grf? not just doubling the prices?
12:00<frosch123>the overall cost stuff can only be changed by powers of 2
12:00<frosch123>every vehicle sets its purchase cost in more detail
12:02<rasco>okay. and is there a way for one grf to manipulate the vehicle costs of another grf one-by-one (instead of globally)?
12:02<@Yexo>yes
12:03<@Yexo>one grf can override every vehicle property from vehicles in one other grf
12:03<rasco>oh, perfect. so i could set completely custom prices for my favorite trainset without modifying the set itself.
12:04<@Yexo>yes, although that might fail if that trainset uses callbacks to set the cost
12:04<rasco>ok. does the default one use callbacks to set the cost?
12:04<@Yexo>no, only other grfs can
12:05<rasco>ok. i would like to make a server with custom (higher) running costs. especially for planes.
12:06<@Yexo>if you only wnat to modify the prices of the default aircraft, try to follow the nml tutorial: http://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NMLTutorial
12:06<rasco>just multiplying them by powers of 2 didnt work out since it made the earlier planes completely useless
12:06<rasco>yeh. i guess i will have to take a close look at it.thanks.
12:07<rasco>so... another question. i've searched for this before on the forums and found a patch but it's really old:
12:07<rasco>making the multiplayer time slower.
12:07<@Yexo>it's still not decided how that should be done and what influences it has on the economy
12:08<rasco>ok. why is time speed an issue with the economy?
12:08<rasco>is the economy coupled with the real-time clock?
12:09<@Yexo>if you make a year twice as long (but vehicles run at the same speed), your vehicles travel twice the distance they would before
12:09<@Yexo>this means twice as much income. If the running costs are per year it'd be an obvious difference
12:09<@Yexo>some industry newgrfs rely on the fact that they produce cargo every 256 ticks, which means 8 or 9 times per month
12:10<@Yexo>if a month was suddenly twice as long, they might not produce twice as much leading to problems with your trains (since train capacity would be doubled)
12:10<rasco>i see, there are various issues here :/
12:11<rasco>but i guess whichever decision is made, newgrf's wouldn't necessarily work when speed is changed
12:12<rasco>so that isn't really an issue. just put a warning above the setting.
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12:13<rasco>so what about making vehicles slower on slower speed?
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12:14<frosch123>pause the game :p
12:14<rasco>or...hmm. if you let them run at regular speed you would have to alter all incomes and running costs
12:15<rasco>frosch123: i've thought about just pausing the game for a few minutes automatically
12:15<rasco>but it sucks since you can't build anything etc.
12:15<frosch123>you can in newer ottd's
12:15<rasco>build during pause?
12:15<frosch123>for < 1.2 in singleplayer, for >= 1.2 also in multiplayer
12:16<frosch123>there is an advanced setting to enable build in pause
12:16<frosch123>hmm, or is that even in 1.1
12:16<frosch123>cannot remember :)
12:16<rasco>well that is interesting...
12:16<Eddi|zuHause>i think it's in 1.1
12:16<FLHerne>Definitely in 1.1
12:16<FLHerne>I use it :P
12:17<rasco>is there such a server? one that makes the time run slower by pausing?
12:17<frosch123>so, where is the gamescript that pauses the game 50% of realtime? :p
12:17<frosch123>rasco: 1.2 has scripting support, so it should be possible to run such a server with 1.2
12:17<frosch123>but i doubt there is one :)
12:18<frosch123>might also look weird :p
12:18<frosch123>however, it is common for servers to pause if no clients are conneted
12:19<@Alberth>like slow down the time by a factor 2, and stop all trains every second half of the day :p
12:19<rasco>is it the option "command_pause_level"?
12:19<frosch123>yes
12:19<rasco>frosch123: i might make such a script
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12:20<rasco>hmm, what value do i set it to?
12:21<frosch123>i guess "3" allows everything
12:21<rasco>ah, thx
12:21<rasco>seems to work
12:22<rasco>so is there LUA scripting now or what?
12:22<frosch123>squirrel
12:22<rasco>server-side?
12:22<frosch123>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewforum.php?f=65 http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=57431
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12:25<rasco>squirel's modules are .nut files? :D
12:25<Eddi|zuHause>obviously :p
12:26<frosch123>http://squirrel-lang.org/ <- you can see an image of a nut in the topleft
12:26<frosch123>(ottd uses squirrel 2.2.x, in case you browse that site)
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12:48<SmatZ>frosch123: what was the reason not to switch to 3.0? problems with backwards compatibility?
12:48<frosch123>yes, we would break all ais
12:49<frosch123>at least as far as i understood the issue :p
12:49<frosch123>yexo knows better
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12:52<andythenorth>hmm
12:53<andythenorth>should I let articulated (semi) trucks refit to 0 trailers?
12:53<andythenorth>with 0 capacity?
12:53<frosch123>i thought you do not want cargo subtypes :p
12:53<andythenorth>I drank that coolade already
12:53<andythenorth>unless you shipped rv-wagons while I was just in the shower :P
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13:12<@Terkhen>andythenorth: depends, would that reduce running cost accordingly?
13:12<andythenorth>could do
13:12<andythenorth>running bobtail
13:12<andythenorth>where do all the trailers go? :P
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13:21<@Terkhen>a magic place
13:21<andythenorth>hmm
13:21*andythenorth has to write some magic for auto-refit :o
13:22<@Terkhen>good or bad magic?
13:22<Eddi|zuHause>deep magic
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13:22<andythenorth>it's only magic because I don't know how it works yet :(
13:22<Eddi|zuHause>i haven't actually looked at autorefit yet
13:23<andythenorth>I'll probably allow it per same class
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13:24<Eddi|zuHause>sounds like a good initial estimate
13:27*andythenorth aims for BANDIT r100
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13:30<andythenorth>can nml do maths in spritesets?
13:31<@planetmaker>yes
13:32<andythenorth>:)
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13:32<andythenorth>I don't know what I need yet
13:32<andythenorth>but I have a feeling
13:33<iddqd>whoooo hoooo
13:33<iddqd>that tonight’s gonna be a good night
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13:45<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: don't look at https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/cets/repository/changes/src/templates/gfx_templates.pnml :p
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: translators * r23776 /trunk/src/lang/ (6 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: basque - 18 changes by rosie2999
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: italian - 2 changes by lorenzodv
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: latvian - 35 changes by Tranzistors
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: tamil - 117 changes by aswn
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: ukrainian - 24 changes by Fixer
13:45<Eddi|zuHause>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/cets/repository/entry/src/templates/gfx_templates.pnml
13:46<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: that's pretty neat
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13:46<andythenorth>maybe you want to work on trucks next :P
13:48<Eddi|zuHause>that's easy, just put them in one of these templates: https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/cets/repository/show/src/gfx :)
13:48*andythenorth is just going to cheat
13:49<andythenorth>defines are like duck tape
13:49<andythenorth>most things can be fixed with "more"
13:56<Eddi|zuHause>hm... i need to group companies... so one can offer parameters like: None/All/All German/Prussia/Saxony/Bavaria/All Swiss/SBB/BLS/RhB/All Austrian/kkStB/...
13:59<andythenorth>I have same issue in BANDIT for continents
13:59<andythenorth>seems trivial, just work
14:00<Eddi|zuHause>well, currently i can offer: None/All/Prussia/Saxony/Bavaria/SBB/...
14:00<Eddi|zuHause>but not the "All <xyz>"
14:01<Eddi|zuHause>and then i have various private railways that don't offer a complete set of engines, so they shouldn't be standalone, but like "DBAG only" and "DBAG + private"
14:01<Eddi|zuHause>which i currently can't do either
14:04<andythenorth>oh
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14:04<andythenorth>I see the issue
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14:23<Eddi|zuHause>oooooh... access fault!
14:24<Eddi|zuHause>i guess it's kinda dangerous that openttd doesn't validate against changed files
14:24<Rubidium>is that an euphimism for an (induced) earthquake?
14:24<SpComb>Eddi|zuHause: binaries?
14:24<Eddi|zuHause>newgrfs
14:24<SpComb>while loaded or between save/load?
14:25<Eddi|zuHause>while the game is running
14:25<Eddi|zuHause>overwriting the newgrf
14:27<Rubidium>that shouldn't happen; IIRC we just open it once per (save)game
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14:27<Rubidium>so if something happens, then it's a concurrency issue with reading/writing to it at the same time
14:28<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: refilling sprite cache?
14:28<Rubidium>and IMO more a 'tool that modified grf'-issue; that should not change the file, but write a new one and then replace it so you don't end up with a broken file
14:29<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: yes, it opens the file once and the sprite cache reused the file handle
14:29<Rubidium>s/reused/keeps/
14:29<Eddi|zuHause>yes
14:29<Eddi|zuHause>and then the file is modified
14:29<SpComb>Rubidium: but openttd still shouldn't crash if someone "corrupts" a grf file while it's loading :)
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14:30<SpComb>hmm
14:30<Eddi|zuHause>not sure if it can be solved at all
14:30<SpComb>you can't assume a file open()'d is immutable, even though the usual semantics are to replace the filename with a new inode
14:31<SpComb>but if you don't want to load it all into memory, well
14:31<Eddi|zuHause>you can't run an md5sum on each read access
14:31<Rubidium>SpComb: but... reading the whole file in memory doesn't help either
14:31<SpComb>Eddi|zuHause: neither is md5sum atomic..
14:31<Rubidium>as you can change it while it's reading the file
14:31<SpComb>Rubidium: well, read it in, parse it to make sure it's valid, and then refernce it later
14:31<Rubidium>so in any case you can be screwed by the NewGRF changing
14:32<SpComb>I assume the issue is that the grf was valid when loaded, but then changed to invalidate those assumptions?
14:32<SpComb>i.e. checked as valid
14:32<SpComb>or does openttd also crash if loading a semi-written/corrupted grf that doesn't change?
14:32<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: can read the file twice and compare? :)
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14:33<Eddi|zuHause>my problem was that i unpaused without reload_newgrfs first
14:33<Eddi|zuHause>and then it immediately segfaulted
14:34<Rubidium>SpComb: some invalid NewGRFs may crash OpenTTD when loading them
14:34<Rubidium>but good luck trying to figure out where and when
14:35<Rubidium>and honestly I can't be really bothered by changing those files while OpenTTD is running
14:35<Rubidium>it's like changing NewGRFs in-game, which is something we don't support either
14:35<Eddi|zuHause>hm... town built a 7 tile bridge over river... i thought that is guarded against?
14:37<SpComb>Rubidium: as long as it doesn't have security implications, I guess it's acceptable
14:37<@Terkhen>Eddi|zuHause: it should be guarded, IIRC it only allows to cross 3 tiles of water
14:39<@Terkhen>hmm... right, that's for bridges over "flat" terrain
14:39<@Terkhen>bridges that start on a slope have a limit of 11
14:41<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: do not modify the file, but delete it, and recreate it
14:41<frosch123>if you have a proper kernel and filesystem, they should not interact
14:41<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i just type make
14:41<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: that looks like the fault then
14:41<frosch123>try adding an "rm bla.grf" before calling nml then
14:42<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: no, nmlc should then make sure it writes to a new file, and replace the original one afterwards
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: the file should be deleted only if compile was successfull
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>arctic rivers look weird in alpine...
14:44<SpComb>Eddi|zuHause: it should indeed
14:44<SpComb>open() + write() is only for things like databases, not text files
14:46<SpComb>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nml/repository/entry/nml/main.py#L181
14:47<SpComb>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nml/repository/entry/nml/main.py#L288
14:47<SpComb>wroong, no bonus
14:49<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nml/repository/entry/nml/output_nml.py
14:49<Eddi|zuHause>should probably overwrite the open/close routines there
14:50<@Alberth>SpComb doesn't matter what you do in the user program, the kernel handles writing to disk
14:51<@Alberth>and does not do a single write :p
14:51<SpComb>Alberth: it does, open() + write() + close() isn't atomic at all to other processes
14:51<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: but that's not the actual issue
14:51<SpComb>and file.write() is just fwrite(), and that can do arbitrarily many write()s, and I don't think even those are necessarily atomic
14:52<@Alberth>it never is
14:52<SpComb>userspace proccesses must do open('foo.tmp'), write, rename('foo.tmp', 'foo')
14:52<SpComb>+ an fsync() thrown in at some point in between, can't remember
14:52<SpComb>if they want atomic file saves
14:52<@Alberth>why would you want that?
14:53<@Alberth>the file is only available after the program finished
14:53<SpComb>and if openttd wants it's old open() fd to retain the old version as it was when it origionally loaded it
14:54<@Alberth>so do nmlc .... -o foo.tmp ; mv foo.tmp foo.grf instead
14:54<SpComb>essentially yes
14:54<SpComb>although nmlc should do that itself internally
14:55<@Alberth>why?
14:55<@blathijs>Why?
14:55<@Alberth>nml does not promise atomic file creation
14:55<@blathijs>nmlc is a compiler, not a runtime-openttd-grf-file-updater
14:55<SpComb>well, it should, if openttd assumes them :)
14:55<@blathijs>Openttd calls nmlc at runtime?
14:57<Eddi|zuHause>no, but nmlc can run while openttd is open
15:01*Alberth has lots of programs running at the same time
15:01<@Alberth>but simple solution, run them in separate directories, and use 'mv' :)
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15:04<@blathijs>Eddi|zuHause: I can also run echo "foo" > some_file.grf while openttd is open, so what? ;-)
15:05<Eddi|zuHause>blathijs: OPENTTD SHOULD NOT SEGFAULT WHEN DOING THAT (sorry, for the fifth time now)
15:07<valhallasw>Eddi|zuHause: you're overwriting a data file that is in use, and you're surprised stuff breaks?
15:07<Eddi|zuHause>valhallasw: i'm not surprised. i'm saying it should be guarded against.
15:07<Eddi|zuHause>valhallasw: no program should _ever_ segfault
15:08<Eddi|zuHause>a segfault is the first sign of a potential code injection
15:08<frosch123>if you type reload_newgrfs fast enough, it works
15:08<@blathijs>Eddi|zuHause: Then it should be fixed in openttd, not nmlc, right?
15:08<valhallasw>Eddi|zuHause: oh, right, good point
15:08<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: yes. but i tend to forget that :)
15:08<valhallasw>I hadn't looked at it that way, but rather as 'stuff crashes when I do stupid things'
15:09<Eddi|zuHause>blathijs: yes. the nmlc part was in response to those "workarounds" that were given as potential solutions
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15:11<valhallasw>Eddi|zuHause: on the other hand... if you can write to files, you can also write to openttd.exe
15:11<__ln__>you can't
15:13<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: tell use where it crashes, then I'll add a NOT_REACHED() there. Then it won't be segfaulting anymore ;)
15:13<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: the problem with segfaults, you don't get a backtrace
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15:14<Eddi|zuHause>> fg
15:14<Eddi|zuHause>bin/openttd
15:14<Eddi|zuHause>ALSA lib pcm.c:7316:(snd_pcm_recover) underrun occurred
15:14<Eddi|zuHause>Speicherzugriffsfehler
15:15<Eddi|zuHause>complete output
15:15<Rubidium>http://pastebin.com/J9ucWVhx <- I'm getting that
15:18<Eddi|zuHause>well, not here
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15:21<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: maybe the "beginning on slope" rule should be "beginning on slope on height 1"?
15:22<Eddi|zuHause>or only "bridge on height 1"?
15:22<Eddi|zuHause>(meaning "across ocean")
15:24<@Terkhen>Eddi|zuHause: http://vcs.openttd.org/svn/browser/trunk/src/town_cmd.cpp#L1042 <-- it should be building bridges only across rivers or ocean already, if it finds a tile that isn't water under the bridge it stops
15:25<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: i mean replace "if (slope == SLOPE_FLAT)" by "if (height > 1)"
15:26<Wolf01>'night
15:26<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: so 11 tile bridges are only allowed on height 1 (ocean), not any higher (river)
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15:27<@Terkhen>oh, I see
15:27<@Terkhen>hmmm... not sure
15:27<Eddi|zuHause>check might need some more details
15:28<@Terkhen>checking for && IsSea(bridge_tile) in the second build method sounds cleaner to me
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15:29<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: or check for river width, if the bridge is more than X tiles longer than the river/lake/ocean is wide, forbid the bridge
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15:31<@Terkhen>hmm... but it already can only build bridges over water (I'm sorry, I think that I'm not following you)
15:31<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: "&& IsSea" on the second lopp is wrong, because that will forbid crossing rivers next to slopes
15:32<@Terkhen>true
15:32<Eddi|zuHause>slope is the wrong check there
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15:34<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: with "width" i mean for each water tile in <bridge direction>, go in <orthogonal direction> and count the water tiles.
15:35<Eddi|zuHause>if max_width + X < bridge_length: forbid
15:35<Eddi|zuHause>that allows crossing lakes and oceans, cross rivers, but not bridge rivers or canyons lengthwise
15:36<Eddi|zuHause>and it's completely agnostic of river/sea
15:36<Eddi|zuHause>which is kind of an arbitrary distinction, e.g. in scenarios
15:39<@Terkhen>makes sense :P
15:43<Elukka>http://lh5.ggpht.com/_hVOW2U7K4-M/SnuOokTPs9I/AAAAAAABEHA/T03i5vEArxY/s640/mig_blow.jpg
15:43<Elukka>this is how you remove snow and ice from tracks
15:43<Elukka>with a goddamn jet engine
15:43<FLHerne>NewGRF would be shiny :P
15:44<FLHerne>Can NewGRFs remove snow?
15:44<Elukka>http://lh4.ggpht.com/_hVOW2U7K4-M/SndaEpru9LI/AAAAAAABECQ/GfazUh4ou98/s640/133.jpg
15:44<Elukka>airport version
15:44<FLHerne>8-)
15:45<FLHerne>wrong smily - 8-|
15:50<jonty-comp>i've always thought for train tracks under snow
15:50<jonty-comp>they should just pump gigawatts of heat into the tracks
15:50<jonty-comp>and melt all the snow on them
15:50<jonty-comp>clearly that is the best solution
15:50<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: swap the alpine river banks :P
15:51<andythenorth>add a newgrf
15:51<andythenorth>branch this: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/water-features/repository
15:52<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: it should only need an actionA-ish
15:53<Eddi|zuHause>basically the same that alpine already does with the land sprites
15:53<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: that newgrf is mostly actionA-ish :P
15:53<andythenorth>just find + replace arctic / temperate :P
15:53<andythenorth>maybe
15:53<Eddi|zuHause>i mean not actually include any sprites
15:53<andythenorth>that also works
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16:16<Jogio>good evening together
16:19<Eddi|zuHause>anyone spot the irony in killer being killed?
16:23<Rubidium>well, you kill fire with fire ;)
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16:56<Rubidium>what a comeback ;)
17:00<FLHerne>Just made a 64 x 32768 map and sent an aircraft from one end to the other
17:00<FLHerne>It took quite a while
17:00<iddqd>did you earn monies?
17:03<FLHerne>No, there weren't any towns in the opposite corners of the map :P
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17:04<FLHerne>Rather pointless really
17:04<__ln__>was it refuelled in air?
17:07<FLHerne>I don't know - I'm not using a recent enough version to have range...Does the new aircraft range thing allow refuelling?
17:07<Elukka>there's an aircraft range thing?
17:08<FLHerne>Apparently. I haven't used it yet though. Could be quite fun if it works...
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17:39<@Terkhen>good night
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18:18<frosch123>night
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19:50<Eddi|zuHause>we need a "download AIs now" button on the "only dummy AI available" message
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23:59<Nat_as>how do I change the newgrif files in a scenerio in 1.2.0-beta2?
---Logclosed Mon Jan 09 00:00:29 2012