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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-01-13

---Logopened Fri Jan 13 00:00:19 2012
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03:57<retro|cz>Can anyone provide some good tweaked dedicated server config ?
03:57<retro|cz>I just need some start.
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04:03<retro|cz>planetmaker, ?
04:04<@planetmaker>I could have said 'hello'
04:09<tokai|mdlx>planetmaker: or "dobry den!" :)
04:09<@planetmaker>:-) But that's ... geographically much different ;-)
04:11<@planetmaker>but then I'd go for 좋은 밤이예요 straight away
04:11<tokai|mdlx>planetmaker: But retro|cz probably would have understood it immediately - assuming the cz suffix of his nick name refers to the fact that he's from Czechia. :)
04:12<tokai|mdlx>planetmaker: Very formal. :)
04:12<@planetmaker>yes ;-)
04:13<@planetmaker>Let's say my Korean is not good enough to use the proper informal words
04:13<tokai|mdlx>Not sure how the Koreans talk on the Internet. Is formal language used there in normal forums, chats, etc.? :)
04:13<tokai|mdlx>No idea about that. :)
04:13<@planetmaker>not too sure either
04:14<@planetmaker>I'm basically stuck at "starting in the attempt to teach myself" :-P
04:14<tokai|mdlx>I tried that with Japanese one.. failed :)
04:15<tokai|mdlx>planetmaker: Best is to watch a lot content (movies, TV, etc.) in the native language. At some point you'll get quite a lot automatically. :)
04:16<@planetmaker>But it requires to have at least *some* more vocabulary and grammar at hand than I do
04:17<tokai|mdlx>It comes with time. As a little child you learned a language too w/o having vocabulary or grammer. :)
04:19<tokai|mdlx>The problem with age is that we try to convert the language into our mother language. Which makes it much harder to learn a language, I think. Your brain needs to store connections between foreign words/ structures and your own native language rather than simply associating things with pictures, sounds, feelings, etc.
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07:45<Eddi|zuHause> <- that's one of the most useless besides-the-point replies i have seen in a long time...
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07:50<V453000>is it?
07:51<__ln__>the same kind of reply I would have expected to get on this channel some years ago.
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09:29<iddqd>hi Belugas
09:29<iddqd>what’s up máán
09:33<@Belugas>the sun
09:33<@Belugas>and hello iddqd
09:53<retro|cz>What setting is for allow to build all industries in network game ?
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09:53<retro|cz>I can't find it :(
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10:06<Eddi|zuHause>retro|cz: economy->construction method for primary industries->like secondary industries (or similar=
10:06<retro|cz>Eddi|zuHause, i found
10:06<retro|cz>I meant in openttd.cfg :)
10:07<Eddi|zuHause>well, search for similar names :)
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12:05-!-mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ
12:06*Alberth waves hi to all
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12:06<cassy2012>Come webcam chat with me guys @
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12:16<@Belugas>chat on a webcam? why? i like chatting with IRC!
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12:17<@Alberth>to practice your sign language perhaps?
12:17<@Alberth>hi Belugas :)
12:27<@Belugas>hi sir Alberth :)
12:29<frosch123>,1518,808986,00.html <- [german] lol @ "correction" at the end of the message
12:35<@planetmaker>I saw once a trailer detatch from a lorry and roll over the intersection. Was a bit scary to see the trailer just roll over it...
12:36<@planetmaker>luckily it was neither fast nor did it hit anyone or anything expensive
12:36<@planetmaker>just a few stones
12:36<andythenorth>will offer that feature
12:36<@planetmaker>refit: trailer w/o lorry and driver?
12:42<@Alberth>who needs a truck when you can use just a trailer :)
12:44<__ln__>i bet the carbon emissions of a trailer are much lower than those of a lorry.
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13:16<@Alberth>not when they explode when driving off a cliff :p
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13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r23794 /trunk/src/lang/latvian.txt:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: latvian - 5 changes by Tranzistors
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13:56<FreeTraffic>Free Traffic To Your Sites or Blogs From
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14:00<@planetmaker>@ban *!*@
14:02<frosch123>dorpsgek doesn't like you?
14:02<frosch123>@ban *!*@
14:02<frosch123>hmm, he does not like me either :(
14:03<@planetmaker>sure that it acknowledges a ban of a person not in the channel?
14:04<__ln__>regarding the bus segregation thread; how about being modern and only segregating males and females?
14:05<@DorpsGek>frosch123: frosch
14:05<frosch123>hmm, i thought it would
14:06<@planetmaker>hm... somehow one can get the list. But I forgot
14:06<frosch123>@help ban
14:06<@DorpsGek>frosch123: Error: There is no command "ban".
14:06<frosch123>@help unban
14:06<@DorpsGek>frosch123: (unban [<channel>] [<hostmask>]) -- Unbans <hostmask> on <channel>. If <hostmask> is not given, unbans any hostmask currently banned on <channel> that matches your current hostmask. Especially useful for unbanning yourself when you get unexpectedly (or accidentally) banned from the channel. <channel> is only necessary if the message isn't sent in the channel itself.
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14:27<George>Hi. I've got a report about crashes of OTTD when building an ECS industry. I created a report
14:27<Rubidium>that user changed NewGRFs in-game
14:29<George>I started a new game, cheated the money, builded a new farm. the same result
14:29<@planetmaker>hm, Rubidium, will it be an idea to also save the grf parameters to the crash log?
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14:30*Rubidium ponders disabling "interpret literal" mode
14:30<George>uploaded new game test crash
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14:33<Rubidium>none of the ECS newgrfs are on bananas, so where does one get them?
14:33<Rubidium>especially the one named "test.grf"
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14:56<_mj>quick question: some month ago there was a function called 'VehicleMove(Vehicle*, bool)', it is apparently gone. is there some replacement for it ?
14:57<_mj> doesn't seem up-to-date
14:57<@Yexo>TrueBrain: ^^ could you fix :)
14:57<@Yexo>_mj: no idea, what should it do exactly?
14:58<@Yexo>there are TrainController and similar functions
14:58<_mj>um, I used it to stop a newly created train :)
14:58<@Yexo>a newly created train should be stopped already
14:58<_mj>I think it was there just to be sure
14:58<@Yexo>that was almost certainly wrong
14:59<_mj>I just leave it out then
15:01<_mj>there is really a lot that has changes over this time, I will need to find some fixes for my code
15:06<Rubidium>that function was renamed to be more clear what it did: update (the) viewport
15:08<_mj>Ah thanks
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15:18<George>Rubidium: > none of the ECS newgrfs are on bananas, so where does one get them? -
15:19<George>Rubidium> especially the one named "test.grf" - - i do not see any test.grf here
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15:28<cornjuliox>when it comes to signals, just exactly how do you define a 'block'?
15:29<cornjuliox>the space between two signals?
15:29<@Yexo>all rails that are connected to eachother without a signal in between
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15:30<andythenorth>Yexo: I've been thinking about NML + macro expansion...
15:30<andythenorth>CPP is quite clunky for the cases I've been finding
15:30<andythenorth>it was very good for nfo
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15:31<@planetmaker>hello andythenorth
15:31<@planetmaker>hello Wolf01
15:31<@Yexo>andythenorth: there is nothing in nml that says you have to use CPP
15:31<andythenorth>I know
15:31<andythenorth>but it's the conventional approach so far
15:31<@Yexo>but I'm curious what cases you've found?
15:31<andythenorth>with NML we need for unique identifiers for switches...which demands string concatenation...which CPP sucks at
15:32<@planetmaker>THIS_ID(general_ID) works fine
15:32<andythenorth>with nfo I solved a lot of cases because I could repeat action 2 blocks with same ID, then branch
15:32<@Yexo>that's true. In an ideal world however you wouldn't need to duplicate such switches
15:32<@planetmaker>when you define THIS_ID as variadic macro in the vehicles or industry's file
15:32<andythenorth>planetmaker: true, but that's limited
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15:33<andythenorth>this for example is clunky :)
15:34<@planetmaker>yes. But you're doing things twice there, if you #define the file to be included
15:35<andythenorth>there might be a better way yes
15:35<andythenorth>but I couldn't figure it out
15:35<cornjuliox>so, based on what i'm reading here would it be safe to conclude that a 'block' consists of signals connected together by track, regardless of any impossible turns (e.g 90 degrees)?
15:35<andythenorth>I figured out alternatives, but not better
15:35<@planetmaker>the template would use switch(FEAT_RV, THIS_ID(template_switch_name), var) { ... }
15:36<@planetmaker>cornjuliox: basically yes
15:36<@planetmaker>it may even be different track types
15:36<@planetmaker>like maglev + rail
15:36<cornjuliox>ok. so i'm beginning to understand all this
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15:37<andythenorth>planetmaker: that would require #ifdefs around the switches (I think)
15:37<andythenorth>or additional switches using advanced varaction2 + CPP to put in a constant
15:38<cornjuliox>and the big difference between presignals and block signals is that presignals are green/red based on the status of any combo/exit signals in the block, regardless of whether or not the trains can actually get to those signals, and block signals just check if the space immediately in front of it is free, right?
15:38<@Yexo>andythenorth: it's often easier if you write the complete nml (without CPP) for one or two cases and try to template that
15:38<andythenorth>or I could use #ifdefs to set a string, depending on the value of another define
15:38<@Yexo>rather than write a generic template directly
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15:39<@Yexo>as yes, I agree the example you showed is clumsy
15:39<@planetmaker>yes. I think we (I) sometimes did that mistake with FIRS to not follow that advice, Yexo
15:40<andythenorth>I'm starting to conclude CPP is limited
15:40<andythenorth>or rather...not 100% appropriate to this case
15:40<andythenorth>MB pm-ed me offering m4
15:40<@Yexo>you can use m4 as preprocessor for nml
15:40<andythenorth>but another developer I know said m4 should be avoided at all costs
15:40<@Yexo>or for nfo or course,using mb's m4nfo
15:41<@Yexo>m4 is definitely a lot stronger than cpp
15:41<@planetmaker>Look at it and use it, if you find it useful
15:41<@Yexo>it's less used, more people know cpp than m4, but personally I think it's quite good
15:41<@planetmaker>from what I saw it has a lot of potential
15:41<@Yexo>at one point I wondered whether to include m4 as default preprocessor in nml, but some people (rightfully!) talked me out of it
15:41<andythenorth>is it trivial or painful to adapt the makefile to it?
15:42<@Yexo>should be quite easy to adapt the makefile
15:42<@planetmaker>relatively easy, I guess
15:42<andythenorth>I like CPP personally
15:42<andythenorth>but it's making for very...lengthy...code
15:42<Prof_Frink>m4 is better for getting to Wales.
15:42<andythenorth>Prof_Frink: I just proved that :P
15:45<andythenorth>are there alternatives to m4? It looks very full featured
15:45<andythenorth>which scares me a little
15:47<@Yexo>doesn't list much
15:48<andythenorth>basically I want to be able to write arbitrary python :P
15:48<andythenorth>and have it return a result to be included
15:48<andythenorth>much like I can in TAL (for the web)
15:48<andythenorth>but this might be bad for reasons I haven't thought of
15:48<andythenorth>or impossible
15:49<andythenorth>using a ${expression} syntax or similar
15:50<@planetmaker>andythenorth: adding python scripts is relatively easy, too...
15:50<andythenorth>pyexpander has loops :)
15:50<andythenorth>loops would make for efficient, but complicated templating
15:50<andythenorth>loops that build code are hard to debug :P
15:50<andythenorth>but would handle things like arbitrary number of trailing vehicles in consist
15:51<@Yexo>you first have to be able to write normal nml code to handle that
15:51<@Yexo>if you've done that you can find a way to template it
15:51<@Yexo>using pyexpander, m4 or even cpp if you wish
15:52<andythenorth>normal nml code can't handle that - not meaningfully
15:52<andythenorth>I can write nml that won't explode in that case, but it's not useful
15:52<@Yexo>if you can't write it in normal nml, you can't write it using a preprocessor either
15:53<@Yexo>not that with "can't" I mean when it's really impossible, bulky nml code doesn't matter
15:53<@Yexo>because a preprocessor doesn't add any new features, it only makes it easier to use the existing ones
15:53<@Yexo>just like everything you can do in nml you can do in nfo too
15:53<@Yexo>it's the same here
15:53<@Yexo>everything you can do with "nml+preprocessor" you can do with only nml too
15:54<andythenorth>so maybe I am looking for a code generator, not a preprocessor
15:54<andythenorth>but I don't trust code generation
15:54<@Yexo>the same holds there: everything you can with with code generator x (that generates nml code), you can also do with plain nml
15:55<andythenorth>plain nml + lots of find + replace when you want to maintain things ;)
15:55<andythenorth>versus trying to understand wtf the code generator is doing when you want to maintain things
15:55<andythenorth>potato / potato
15:55<andythenorth>I could definitely solve all the cases I have with CPP + a lot of switches
15:55<andythenorth>just seems clunky
15:56<@Yexo>yes, it's clunky, but you could do it
15:56<andythenorth>I'm intrigued if BANDIT code makes sense to others
15:56<@Yexo>the "clunky"-ness you can (possible) avoid by using a good preprocessor or a code generator
15:57<andythenorth>I'm also intrigued if I will understand what I did in 6 months :P
15:57<@Yexo>I think you're over-using defines there
15:58<andythenorth>I could use less
15:58<@Yexo>why not directly include item{property{ cost: 10; } } in each vehicle .-nml file instead of defining "#DEFINE THIS_BUY_COST 10" and including a file that uses that define just to set a property?
15:59<@Yexo>imo that's only a good idea if you need to use one define in multiple places
15:59<@Yexo>like you use THIS_SMOKE for setting a property and somewhere in a callback result
15:59<@Yexo>in that case it's used to avoid duplication of one value
16:01<andythenorth>what else?
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16:26<TheDude>hello there
16:27<TheDude>can I have a quick question for developers? what is this new message "your computer took too long to join" popping up when joining server?
16:27<@planetmaker>have a guess
16:27<TheDude>yeah, well, is 5 second too long?
16:27<@planetmaker>download too slow. Or your computer too slow to catch up with the game after download
16:28<TheDude>I guess openttd doesnt require more than 8Mbit, and 2GHz computer, and it kicks me after 5 seconds of joining
16:28<TheDude>is it possible, that server is slow?
16:28<Rubidium>TheDude: the default is 15 seconds
16:28<TheDude>still, I can see map after 5 seconds, and right after joining it kicks me with that message
16:29<Rubidium>so if it's 5 seconds, then the server owner has (as far as I can see in my magic crystal ball) reduced the value
16:29<@planetmaker>servers can modify that ^
16:29<TheDude>I am the server owner :-)
16:29<Ammler>are you sure, your openttd process get the whole 100% of your 2GHz?
16:29<TheDude>is it that magic new value? max_download_time = 10000 :-)
16:30<__ln__>is that 2GHz of AMD or Intel?
16:30<TheDude>it was 1000 on default, but I increased it, dont know what units it is
16:30<@planetmaker>@calc 1000 / 74
16:30<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 13.5135135135
16:30<Ammler>I would guess, it does autokick slow clients
16:30<TheDude>ah, frames, ok, thanks for info
16:30<@planetmaker>@calc 10000 / 74
16:30<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 135.135135135
16:32<TheDude>do you want to try to connect that server? :-)
16:33<Ammler>TheDude: you could also try to connect another server
16:33<TheDude>that of course works
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16:35<Ammler>TheDude: check the setting on the server console, maybe you have something else as 10000 there
16:37<@Yexo>TheDude: what version does your server run?
16:43<@Yexo>TheDude: and which server is it?
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16:46<@Yexo>and where do I find those ecs grfs? they're not on bananas
16:46<TheDude>ah, yes, true
16:47<TheDude>should be here
16:48<@Yexo>I can join almost instantly and am not kicked out
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16:50<TheDude>really? ok
16:50<TheDude>thanks for trying that
16:53<@Yexo>hmm, "connection lost"
16:53<@Yexo>but that might be my connection
16:55<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23795 /branches/1.1/ (21 files in 5 dirs): (log message trimmed)
16:55<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [1.1] -Backport from trunk:
16:55<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: Make default timeouts for certain network states lower and configurable [FS#4955] (r23764)
16:55<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: Check whether a water tile is really empty when overbuilding it with an object [FS#4956] (r23763)
16:55<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: Missing locking causing crash in extreme case when being in the MP lobby [FS#4938] (r23752)
16:55<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: Clear the backed up orders of a removed station as well, otherwise one
16:55<CIA-1>OpenTTD: could create orders to a station that was never in the original backupped
16:55<TheDude>I quit the server
16:55<TheDude>ok, I set map to 64x64
16:55<TheDude>still it kicks me for joining too long, after to 2 seconds, when it is set to 130 sec in cfg
16:56<TheDude>but if it joinable, perhaps it is indeed problem on my side
16:56<@Yexo>I can still join it
16:57<TheDude>I cant
16:57<TheDude>my friend cant either
17:00<TheDude>I am in, good
17:05<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23796 /branches/1.1/ (56 files in 4 dirs): [1.1] -Backport from trunk r23698
17:06<@planetmaker>and what was the culprit, TheDude?
17:06<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23797 /branches/1.1/ (8 files in 6 dirs): [1.1] -Prepare: 1.1.5
17:06<TheDude>actually, I set map back to 512x512 and cant join again
17:06<@planetmaker>slow connection?
17:07<TheDude>connections is fine
17:07<Rubidium>smells like not pausing on join
17:07<TheDude>maybe slower notebook, 2Ghz, but few years old
17:07<TheDude>but I got that message with my new computer also, so not really sure
17:07<TheDude>yes, no pausing on join is true
17:08<@planetmaker>success maybe with pause?
17:08<TheDude>maybe, but it is on purpose and I dont want to change it
17:09<@Yexo>I can still join without any problems
17:09<@Yexo>still only 360kb or so
17:09<TheDude>what is the difference between this new settings and the max_join_time anyway?
17:10<TheDude>yy, I join too, but it kicks me right after I see map
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17:15<@Alberth>you are too far behind after downloading the map perhaps
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17:18<Rubidium>are there *any* modifications to the server or client?
17:18<TheDude>server is modified
17:19<TheDude>but the same modification is very well joinable on another server
17:19<TheDude>client is unpatched
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17:19<@Yexo>I suspect it's something on your end as I can join it (with unmodified client) without any problems
17:20<TheDude>yy, I agree, it seems so
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17:23*Rubidium can join without any problems as well
17:24<TheDude>on the other hand, joning 1.1.4 of the same modified server is no problem
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17:35<andythenorth>are developer-defined bitmasks appropriate for RVs?
17:35<andythenorth>as trains have them already
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17:51<andythenorth>Yexo: I guess there's no way an nml identifier could be locally scoped, i.e. to just part of the nml file (with possibility of being redefined)?
17:52<@Yexo>it's possible to allow reuse of identifiers (like in nfo)
17:53<@Yexo>however I don't plan on doing so, since it makes it a lot harder to find bugs when you're unaccustomed to it
17:53<@planetmaker>oh, I'd hate that, tbh
17:53<@planetmaker>unique identifiers make it easy to find stuff
17:53<andythenorth>I could segment the project and generate nfo for each vehicle
17:54<andythenorth>then combine the nfo
17:54<andythenorth>no idea how :P
17:54<andythenorth>certainly more complicated than concatenation of identifiers
17:54<@planetmaker>I really fail to see where the variadic macro don't help you with the uniqueness requirement
17:54<@Yexo>what's so bad with the current THIS_ID() solution?
17:55<andythenorth>there's nothing wrong with it
17:56<Eddi|zuHause>it's a pretty genious solution, actually :)
17:56<andythenorth>it will concatenate multiple args in a single define?
17:57*andythenorth thinks it will
17:57<Eddi|zuHause>i think that does not work
17:58<Eddi|zuHause>you need multiple macros for that to work
17:58<Eddi|zuHause>#define VEH_ID1(...) __VA_ARGS ## id
17:59<Eddi|zuHause>#define VEH_ID(...) VEH_ID1(__VA_ARGS__)
17:59<@Yexo>why not something like #define THIS_ID(id) VEH_A_ ## id
17:59<Eddi|zuHause>and then like VEH_ID(JOIN3(a,b,c))
18:00<Eddi|zuHause>if you just writ VEH_ID(a,b,c) you will end up with a,b,cid
18:01<Eddi|zuHause>which is not a valid identifier
18:01<@Yexo>but why do you need multiple arguments?
18:01<Eddi|zuHause>that was his question
18:01<@Yexo>you can always do VEH_ID(a ## b ## c)
18:01<andythenorth>that's what I'm testing
18:02<andythenorth>that means abandoning __VA_ARGS though?
18:02<andythenorth>which means a lot more code cruft
18:02<@Yexo>again: why would you even need multiple arguments to THIS_ID?
18:02<@Yexo>isn't using __VA_ARGS here the cruft?
18:03<andythenorth>maybe there's another way
18:03<@Yexo>there are always other ways. The crucial question is: what do you want to solve
18:03<andythenorth>templating road vehicle trailers
18:04<andythenorth>I have everything done but the graphics chain
18:04<andythenorth>which I'm stuck on
18:04<@Yexo>do you have one (or two) of them written out without any template code?
18:04<@Yexo>do that first
18:04<@Yexo>than figure out what you duplicate for multiple vehicles. It only makes sense to template that part
18:05<@Yexo>otherwise you're again going for over-engineering like with bandits
18:05<andythenorth>I can't actually see how to write it out without templating
18:05<andythenorth>I guess big switches
18:06<@Yexo>simply write the plain nml code for one vehicle?
18:06<@planetmaker>you can write one vehicle with switches?
18:06<@Yexo>if you have to duplicate a lot of code there for different cargo types, just do 3 of them
18:06<@planetmaker>i.e. consider to make a one-vehicle grf. That'd need no templates
18:07<@Terkhen>good night
18:07<andythenorth>bye Terkhen
18:08<@Yexo>gn Terkhen
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18:10<andythenorth>it's not so much over-engineered as clunky :P
18:10<andythenorth>it's all too heavy
18:10<andythenorth>but nvm
18:10<andythenorth>removing stuff takes time :P
18:10<@Yexo>but doing one or two vehicles this way shows you which part is too heavy and needs to be templated
18:10<andythenorth>yeah, no argument
18:11<@planetmaker>g'night Terkhen
18:15<Eddi|zuHause>well. i built a parser that generates a tree that generates the switches... THAT's clunky :p
18:16<@Yexo>hehe, and after that nml builds another tree from those switches :p
18:18<Eddi|zuHause>the graphics look like this then: date:(default:pruss,1924..1928:DRGearly, 1929..1949:DRG,>=1950:epoch3:(DB:DB,default:DRG))
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18:28<Eddi|zuHause>wth did oberhümer break now
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18:36<Eddi|zuHause>i should probably implement some syntax checking
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18:45<@Yexo>3 "fix" commits for cets and it still fails compiling :p
18:46<@Yexo>you need some script that disallows pushes when it fails to compile
18:47<Eddi|zuHause>wait... that runs correctly here...
18:49<Eddi|zuHause>Server returned an error: HTTP Error 502: Bad Gateway
18:49<Eddi|zuHause>that's certainly none of my errors...
18:50<@Yexo>oh, I looked inside cets-r516-build.err.log not noticing the wrong revision in that file
18:52<@Yexo>good night
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19:05<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: prblem with a script to check compiling is that it actually has to compile stuff... i don't think oberhümer has actually a compile environment set up
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19:06<Eddi|zuHause>and i don't often make a full compile either, because sometimes i'm tremendously impatient
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22:16<Stimrol>I am looking for help enableing newgrf industrial set on my server, I have loaded it and it works on singleplayer but not on multiplayer
22:16<Stimrol>I have been looking on google for some hours how to do it, but cant find anything about doing this on server
22:16-!-Pixa [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
22:18<Stimrol>so none of the 100 hundred people want to help me?
22:18<Stimrol>or even point me in another direction
22:27<Eddi|zuHause>you expect everyone to jump out at 4AM?
22:28<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, the easiest method is making a savegame in single player, and uploading it to the server
22:31<Stimrol>thanks, I will try this. I was just beting on different time-zones :)
22:33<Eddi|zuHause>this community is like 90% european
22:34<Stimrol>ahh, ok. Me too, but I will know this the next time :)
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---Logclosed Sat Jan 14 00:00:55 2012