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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-01-19

---Logopened Thu Jan 19 00:00:25 2012
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00:36<Lolliiee>I was wondering if anyone is able to help me with the Beta OpenTTD?
00:38<Lolliiee>It saying 'No available Language Packs (invalid versions?) Any reason why that would be happening?
00:39<Eddi|zuHause>you didn't install it correctly
00:40<Lolliiee>Ah, i see. What did I miss?]
00:40<Eddi|zuHause>dunno, what did you do?
00:42<Lolliiee>Welll I download the istaller for Windows 64bit. I couldnt find anything else that i need. However I could have been loioking in the wrong place
00:44<@Rubidium>I reckon you did an upgrade from an older version of OpenTTD, right?
00:44<Lolliiee>yep 1.1.5]]
00:47<@Rubidium>was that running? As it sounds like Windows prevented writing to the openttd binary
00:48<Lolliiee>Yes, very weel, however my friend and I couldnt hop onto eachotehrs servers, so I decided to download the Beta like him
00:53<@Rubidium>what might work is making sure you don't have OpenTTD running and uninstall + reinstall it, or extracting the .zip download over the installation directory
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02:03<XR6580>Hello.
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06:37<andythenorth>nml will only work with strings declared in a lang file?
06:37<andythenorth>I can't just declare name: "foo"
06:37<andythenorth>?
06:40<@planetmaker>you need them declared in the lang file
06:40<andythenorth>k
06:40<andythenorth>nvm
06:42*andythenorth wonders if the makefile can do curl http://213.133.67.181:8192/zz_dangerous_things/tt_foundry/sets/BANDIT/render_trucks > foo.txt
06:42<andythenorth>and whether that's stupid :)
06:45<TinoDidriksen>It can do that, but yeah probably stupid...
06:46<Ammler>andythenorth: the devzone build system has no internet
06:46<andythenorth>Ammler: very wise :)
06:46<Ammler>so at least it should be no requirement
06:47<andythenorth>Ammler: fancy installing zope on devzone? :P
06:47<andythenorth>probably not :)
06:47<Ammler>well, we can setup a vm for that...
06:48<andythenorth>I doubt you want to maintain it though, and I'm not competent to do so :)
06:48<Ammler>I doubt, there is competence needed to do anything
06:49<Ammler>at least all I did was without ;-)
06:49<andythenorth>you'd be surprised :)
06:51<Ammler>well, you can gather it with time, someone needs to start
06:52<Ammler>as we have no commercial back, it can only hurt our ego
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07:35<xiong>Okay, some more dope on cargodist. Previously, we decided that ships just wouldn't work since they can't be ordered non-stop -- one might think a ship never makes a by-docking but cargodist requires the non-stop flag.
07:36<@Yexo>so report that in the cargodist forum topic
07:37<xiong>That's pointless, Yexo. That topic is 118 pages at last count and most of it has to do with technical details, coding style, fantasies, wish lists, bugs, and outdated issues.
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07:37<@Yexo>xiong: if you don't report it you're sure if won't get fixed
07:37<xiong>I haven't actually seen anything in it yet that clearly relates to playing with the patch.
07:37<@Yexo>however long that topic is, the most recent posts still get read
07:38<xiong>Oh, I'm not interested in "getting it fixed". No ships, no ships. That may be of interest but right now, I'd like to figure out what it *is* before I fantasize about what it should be.
07:39<@planetmaker>you're just interested in spamming this channel with remarks which none of the people who might potentially be interesed will read?
07:39<xiong>I don't even know certainly that ships won't work -- only that we came up with a plausible explanation of why they might not.
07:39<xiong>?
07:39<xiong>Is this... a non-cargodist channel? This is... OT?
07:39<@Yexo>well, discussing cargoist is fine
07:39<xiong>Sorry... point me to the cargodist channel.
07:39<@Yexo>however for a discussion you need multiple people
07:39<@Yexo>so far you seem the only one interested here
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07:40<@Yexo>even the author can't be found here, just on the forums
07:40<xiong>Sorry... is this a ridiculous patch? Nobody plays it?
07:40<@Yexo>no, quite the opposite
07:40<@Yexo>a lot of people play it
07:40<@Yexo>however there are vastly more players than can be found here
07:40<xiong>I assume that if I discuss it, perhaps others in chan who also have an interest will... discuss it.
07:41<@Yexo>well, that's fine
07:41<xiong>I see 100 users in this chan. I find it... a little odd... to suggest out of hand that nobody here might have any interest in discussing a particular OTTD topic. What am I missing?
07:42<@planetmaker>the multi-user part which is implied by "discussion"
07:42<xiong>"Don't ask to ask", right?
07:42<xiong>I just jump in and say what I have to say, ask what I have to ask. Or are you taking some sort of personal offense here?
07:42<@Yexo>xiong: the point you're missing is that you've brought up cargodist several times over the last few days and this is the first time you've gotten any reaction. at least as far as I remember
07:43<xiong>Well no, actually. The last time I came in here is when we thrashed out the ship issue.
07:43<xiong>And actually, that was... the second or third time I mentioned it here.
07:43<@Yexo>ok, sorry, go on
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07:44<xiong>This begins to sound like a personal issue. I'm not here to knock heads with anybody. If you just feel I'm pissing on your turf or I have bad breath, fine. I actually enjoy playing this game and I don't like to get into personality conflicts.
07:45<@Yexo><xiong> Oh, I'm not interested in "getting it fixed". <- if anything, I had a slight issue with this comment. But this whole discussion is going way farther than I ever wanted
07:45<xiong>I've been very badly treated by some people in this community... and I don't come here to hash it up or roll in the dirt. I'm keeping strictly to business.
07:45<@Yexo>when I said: <Yexo> well, that's fine and <Yexo> ok, sorry, go on there was no sarcasm intented
07:46<+michi_cc>xiong: The point is that if you actually want answers, and not just not a soap box to stand on, you should post on the cargodist thread and not here. Not because it would be off-topic or anything, just simply because the people who can answer you aren't in the channel.
07:46<@Yexo>while I do remember your nick I don't recall how you were badly treated, and anyway that's of no concern for me right now
07:46<@planetmaker>Yexo: wrt the NML graphics switch: my comment mostly referred to the order of callbacks vs. graphics (which always is the default branch)
07:46<xiong>You *develop* OTTD. You want to develop. I want to *play*. This is where we butt heads. I'm glad you develop. Why should it annoy anyone that I play?
07:47<@Yexo>we develop OpenTTD, not cargodist. And you're not annoying anyone
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07:47<xiong>michi_cc, Perhaps you'd be kind enough to tell me what you think is on topic for this channel. I thought the game in all its forms was discussable here.
07:47<@Yexo>planetmaker: and using "default:" as prefix is not acceptable?
07:47<@planetmaker>it makes sense to have the default cargo switch probably last to the graphics switches. But it's at least unintuitive or not documented :-)
07:48<+michi_cc>xiong: Did you read what I wrote? I said " Not because it would be off-topic or anything, just simply because the people who can answer you aren't in the channel."
07:48<@planetmaker>Documentation could probably help there... it was more of a "just stumbled about"
07:48<@planetmaker>It's perfectly acceptable
07:48<@Yexo>xiong: for the last time: it's fine to discuss cargodist here. However there are far more players (and the developer) to be found on the forums who are not here
07:48<@planetmaker>also the 'default'
07:48<@Yexo>ok, so documentation needs to be improved there
07:48<xiong>michi_cc, Okay, this I just don't understand. You know, somehow, that none of the hundred people in the chan know anything about this, or want to exchange ideas about it?
07:49<@Yexo>did you already update the documentation for the cargo classes?
07:49<@planetmaker>It's also no "you should do". It was more of a mental note in general, Yexo :-)
07:49<andythenorth>can we add 'meta discusssions about topic are mostly off-topic' to the topic please
07:49<@planetmaker>yes, I did that this morning
07:49<xiong>andythenorth, Yah, I agree. Can I go back to discussing cargodist?
07:49<andythenorth>why not?
07:50<xiong>Thanks.
07:50<@Yexo>planetmaker: the "this morning" referred to the cargoclass documentation?
07:50<@planetmaker>yes
07:51<@Yexo>:)
07:51<xiong>So, having dropped ships in favor of road and rail, I get the feeling that cargodist refuses to ship cargo intended for multiple destinations in a single vehicle.
07:52<xiong>So given pax originating at A, wanting to go to C; others wanting to go to D; and links from B to A, C, D -- a vehicle from A to B will carry A-C or A-D pax, not both.
07:53<xiong>So as a real example, I have 273 pax waiting at this moment at one station -- with 13 different destination stations. And if I had a vehicle pull up with a 200 pax capacity, it would only load 54 of them.
07:54<xiong>I believe that for trains, this is per carriage, not per train.
07:54<xiong>Does this seem reasonable?
07:55<@Yexo>planetmaker: http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Item mentions only the "default:" syntax for the default block
07:55<@Yexo>I can't find documentation that says "default:" is optional if it's the last entry, although it is
07:55<@planetmaker>hm :-) I guess my mental docs are out-of-date then ;-)
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07:56<andythenorth>xiong: read the patch code?
07:57<xiong>andythenorth, Can't, sorry. I don't speak C. Not a line. It's been over 20 years since I had anything to do with it.
07:58<@planetmaker>Yexo: should that (defaut: ...) apply to the livery_override { ... } block?
07:58<@Yexo>yes
07:58<@planetmaker>then I'll ammend it there, too. And add the info that callbacks are allowed
07:58<xiong>I think the algorithms are probably more or less well explained on the related wiki page in any case. Something there contributes to my feeling about the no-sharing.
07:59<@Yexo>maybe just put something there like "<contents ame as graphics-block>"?
08:00<@planetmaker>I added that info. I'd just keep the example, though?
08:00<@planetmaker>with callback added
08:00<@Yexo>where did you add it?
08:00<xiong>And yes, andythenorth; if I ever get to the point of thinking something is known about cargodist, I should write it up on wiki as a 'Player's Guide'.
08:00<@planetmaker>in the preview not yet submitted
08:00<andythenorth>there's a wiki page?
08:00<andythenorth>:o
08:01<@planetmaker>it's called NML documentation
08:01<xiong>http://wiki.openttd.org/Passenger_and_cargo_distribution
08:01<xiong>But it's pretty much all talk from the developer's side.
08:02<@planetmaker>there. hit 'submit'
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08:03<@Yexo>looks fine :)
08:04<@planetmaker>:-)
08:04<xiong>Yexo, you can refresh your memory by checking out my emails from 2010 Nov 25. Feel free to PM me if it doesn't come back.
08:04<@Yexo>already remembered
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08:07<AcidWeb>Hello
08:08<@Yexo>hi
08:09<AcidWeb>Anybody experienced sudden increase of ppl dropping from servers?
08:09<AcidWeb>I got logs full of:
08:09<AcidWeb>*** X has left the game (general error)
08:09<AcidWeb>*** X has left the game (connection lost)
08:09<AcidWeb>After 1.1.5 update
08:09<@planetmaker>AcidWeb: that's in the beta2 the synonym for 'connection lost'
08:09<@Yexo>when they are already playing or when they're joining the game?
08:09<@planetmaker>due to a small bug which is already fixed
08:09<AcidWeb>Yexo: both
08:09<@planetmaker>sure that the normal connection losses are more common?
08:10<@planetmaker>or this more than the usual ones?
08:10<@Yexo>I think the general error in 1.1.5 means that they're too slow when joining the game
08:10<@planetmaker>and that it's not a awareness effect due to the (buggy) 'general error'?
08:11<AcidWeb>They was some DC when i was running 1.1.4 too. But not so much and i dont seen "general error" then
08:11<@planetmaker>hm, might be that 1.1.5 has not the specific messages, yes
08:11<@planetmaker>AcidWeb: try to increase the timeouts
08:11<@planetmaker>for server join. There are two new variables
08:13<AcidWeb>max_join_time ?
08:16<AcidWeb>planetmaker: What is the second?
08:17-!-XR6580 [~XR6580@77-253-18-173.adsl.inetia.pl] has joined #openttd
08:17<XR6580>Hello.
08:19<@Yexo>AcidWeb: max_download_time and max_password_time
08:19<@Yexo>hi XR6580
08:19<@planetmaker>max_download_time; and max_password_time;
08:19<@planetmaker>^ AcidWeb
08:19<@planetmaker>hm, slow :-)
08:19<XR6580>I am suprised that OpenTTD doesn't protest against SOPA.
08:19<XR6580>All sites I am going into are protesting against.
08:20<XR6580>It has become messy for now.
08:20<@Yexo>isn't the blackout already over?
08:20<@planetmaker>it is
08:20<@planetmaker>blackout day was yesterday
08:21<AcidWeb>Yexo, planetmaker: Thank you i will try increasing them.
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08:38<@peter1138>also none of us is from the US :p
08:39<AcidWeb>peter1138: And?
08:39<AcidWeb>This issue affects all Internet users.
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08:59<appe>wouldnt it seem nice not to care just because everybode else does?
08:59<appe>it is - sorry to say - not relevant what everybode else does.
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09:16<@Belugas>hello
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09:58*appe is on an old X1.
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10:29<XR6580>appe, I agree with you.
10:30<XR6580>Just yesterday I made a guy rage because I didn't care about SOPa.
10:30<XR6580>No one is told to care or even do anything about that.
10:37<appe>and don't get me wrong. Im involved in trying to stop it. though, that if anything makes me want to avoid people just tagging along for the ride.
10:37<appe>stuff like that may prevent stuff that might be good, instead.
10:37<XR6580>I never make any actions.
10:37<XR6580>I like to be neutral for everything.
10:38<dihedral>you mean, you don't like having a mind of your own
10:38<@planetmaker>sounds like a ^
10:38<dihedral>hello planetmaker :-)
10:38<@planetmaker>don't think. Don't talk. Just do what being told
10:38<@planetmaker>hi dihedral :-)
10:38<XR6580>No planetmaker.
10:38<@peter1138>an apple user?
10:38<@planetmaker>I'm reminded of... dunno. 1984.
10:39<dihedral>was that not what was required from the NS?
10:39<XR6580>I am not a mindless person that does everything somebody says.
10:39<XR6580>I just stay neutral.
10:39<XR6580>Never joining good or bad side.
10:39<dihedral>so never joining any side
10:39<@planetmaker>The price of freedom is eternal diligence
10:39<XR6580>I have freedom.
10:39<XR6580>And I use that freedom to be freely neutral.
10:40<@planetmaker>Because others care for it
10:40<XR6580>planetmaker, are you taking this wrong that I stay neutral?
10:40<dihedral>nope
10:40<@planetmaker>With your attitude you, frankly, don't quite deserve freedom :-)
10:40<appe>the thing I really don't like with this SOPA thing, is how the anonymous community gets involved.
10:40<dihedral>there is neutral and neutral
10:40<@planetmaker>That's your right, though
10:40<appe>and they suck.
10:41<XR6580>Oh so you think that only people that parcipitate in something deserve freedom?
10:41<XR6580>Then go to war.
10:41<dihedral>you consider freedom to be your own little world in which conflicts from the real word do not exist
10:42<appe>just because he doesn't mind it?
10:42<dihedral>staying neutral is fine - the motives behind is what make the difference
10:42<XR6580>I am just neutral because I want to.
10:42<XR6580>No one can tell me that's bad.
10:42<dihedral>you are attracted to 'neutral' without having a clear thought behind any matter concerning the world :-P
10:43<XR6580>Yeah, I don't give a damn about the world :>
10:43<dihedral>:-P
10:43<dihedral>see? you are merely interested in your own well being
10:43<XR6580>What.
10:44<XR6580>I care about myself.
10:44<XR6580>But I don't care about anyone.
10:44<XR6580>Yes I am selfish >:[ But I help when people deserve to.
10:44<appe>of course you do.
10:44<dihedral>however if you say, i do not believe this matter will have a negative influence on our world (outside of the USA) and i see no bad to come out of such a treaty ... then be it
10:44<dihedral>however, saying " i am neutral for being neutral and i invest all my energy so nobody can find no bad on me" ... wtf
10:45<XR6580>I haven't said that.
10:45<XR6580>Don't be a dick.
10:45<dihedral>what is your real thought? other than not wanting to have a public view point
10:46<dihedral>if you consider me to be a dick for expecting people to have a mind of their own, i feel sorry for you, but that aint gonna offend me ;-)
10:46<XR6580>Wait
10:46<XR6580>So you say that I am being controlled because I am neutral?
10:46<dihedral>no
10:46<XR6580>Because I don't know if I should go mad at your sentences, you're typing them like stupid
10:47<dihedral>i say you are more focused on being neutral than anything else
10:47<XR6580>And?
10:47<dihedral>rather than taking you point of view and that leading to being neutral ;-)
10:47<@planetmaker>tolerance against intolerance leads to ... less freedom
10:47<XR6580>Nothing forces me to express myself to the world.
10:48<XR6580>As it won't change anything.
10:48<dihedral>that could be true, but i would doubt it to be
10:48<@planetmaker>and oppression by the greedy and powerful
10:48<dihedral>i would consider a single voice to be more powerful than you might consider
10:49<dihedral>words can be very powerful
10:49<XR6580>Heh, the only problem that I don't give a fuck about anything
10:49<XR6580>But still, I am tolerant.
10:49<dihedral>but why do you not give a fuck?
10:49<XR6580>Because I don't give a fuck
10:50<dihedral>now if you expressed that a little different, i could follow
10:50<XR6580>I have freedom to do everything, but I don't feel to use it.
10:51<dihedral>so you consider you freedom to have its source in you not giving a fuck?
10:51<XR6580>Yes.
10:51<dihedral>then quite frankly all your freedom is, is a lie ;-)
10:51<@planetmaker>freedom's source being in inactivity certainly... is not quite right
10:52<@planetmaker>but it's a way to exercise existing one
10:52<XR6580>"Hey look, that guy doesnt' do a thing about anything, he's probably not free"
10:52<@planetmaker>after all there have to be shepherds and sheep ;-)
10:52<dihedral>lol?
10:53<XR6580>Lol
10:53<XR6580>Okay, I am not free because I don't feel like helping the good or bad.
10:53<dihedral>i do not mean that the person does not feel being free
10:53<appe>he means spot on, old chap.
10:53<dihedral>but actually that person does not know what freedom is
10:53<@planetmaker>dihedral: he may know that well.
10:53<@planetmaker>But it's not him whom one can depend on maintaining it
10:53<XR6580>Guess what, I know what is freedom, but when you use that freedom, you slowly become not free.
10:54<@planetmaker>I challange that assumption, XR6580
10:54<appe>oops
10:54<XR6580>planetmaker: Let me use for someone a weird example
10:54<XR6580>You can take a credit from a bank because you can.
10:54<appe>-he means
10:55<XR6580>But when you take that credit, you are forced to pay it later and therefore you are not free anymore.
10:55<XR6580>I know that's a weird example but I couldn't find any better.
10:55<@planetmaker>XR6580: and if you fear any action to have an influence on the future you're not free by the same definition you just used
10:55<@planetmaker>sorry, your example thus failed
10:55<XR6580>Has anyone said I am scared of that?
10:56<XR6580>You know? You are kind of a dick.
10:56<@planetmaker>@kick XR6580
10:56-!-XR6580 was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [planetmaker]
10:56<@planetmaker>no swearing
10:56-!-XR6580 [~XR6580@77-253-18-173.adsl.inetia.pl] has joined #openttd
10:56<@planetmaker>no swearing
10:56<@planetmaker>and no abuse
10:56<XR6580>Dick is not a swear word, that's a name
10:56<XR6580>Now fuck you faggotmaker
10:56<@Yexo>@kban XR6580
10:56-!-mode/#openttd [+b *!~XR6580@77-253-18-173.adsl.inetia.pl] by DorpsGek
10:56<@planetmaker>@kban XR6580
10:56-!-XR6580 was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [Yexo]
10:57-!-XR6580 [~Fasdf@77-253-18-173.adsl.inetia.pl] has joined #openttd
10:57<XR6580>You stupid nigger
10:57<dihedral>spoilsport
10:57<@Yexo>@kban XR6580
10:57-!-mode/#openttd [+b *!~Fasdf@77-253-18-173.adsl.inetia.pl] by DorpsGek
10:57-!-XR6580 was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [Yexo]
10:57<appe>I feel i should not have started this discussion..
10:57<@Yexo>@kban *@77-253-18-173.adsl.inetia.pl
10:57<@DorpsGek>Yexo: Error: *@77-253-18-173.adsl.inetia.pl is not in #openttd.
10:57<dihedral>*@*adsl* ?
10:57<dihedral>hehe
10:57<@Yexo>@ban *@77-253-18-173.adsl.inetia.pl
10:58*dihedral waits for mibbit to be used
10:58<dihedral>it was such fun having him around
10:58<dihedral>finally an interesting conversation
10:58<appe>whats a mibbitmibbit
10:58<appe>oops.
10:58<appe>damnit, this 3g lag kills me
10:59<dihedral>did he really use that n word? :-P
10:59<dihedral>lol
10:59<@planetmaker>these kind of discussions always end with someone banned it seems ;-)
11:00<dihedral>i wonder why :-P
11:00<dihedral>i was about to ask how old he/she was
11:00<@planetmaker>many people cannot agree to disagree
11:00<appe>well, I guess this proves his points about neutrality..
11:00<appe>:D
11:00<@planetmaker>yeah... He should have stayed neutral :-P
11:01<appe>Hehe
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11:01*appe is on a train from the fifties
11:02<appe>it feels right.
11:02*appe is a jazz type of guy.
11:03<dihedral>are you free? :-P
11:03<dihedral>I am free because i am neutral
11:03<@planetmaker>what is 'neutral'?
11:03<@planetmaker>you're with me or against me. Or not?
11:03<@planetmaker>:-P
11:03<dihedral>i will not voice my thoughts as i fear that might not leave me in a neutral position
11:03<dihedral>and then i fear to lose my freedom
11:03<dihedral>because i do not give a fuck :-P
11:04<@Yexo>I cannot be free anymore since I exercised my freedom to kick-ban that xr6580 guy
11:04<appe>I like my government neutral.
11:04<@Yexo>too easy to bash him now
11:04<dihedral>Yexo, you just showed him some more freedom :-P
11:04<@Yexo>well, he wasn't very neutral about it
11:04<dihedral>i was bashing him, yet he did not seem to get it :-P
11:05<@planetmaker>dihedral: I don't think your argument was valid, though
11:05<dihedral>which one
11:05<@planetmaker>He probably knew well what freedom is. Not exercising it doesn't mean not to know it
11:05<@planetmaker>nor not to value it
11:05<dihedral>i would not be sure about that
11:05<@planetmaker>not exercising any right is exercising freedom
11:06<@planetmaker>I don't need to do everything I could do
11:06<@planetmaker>(nor can I)
11:06<dihedral>he was more focused on trying to being neutral
11:06<dihedral>than on why he was being neutral
11:06<dihedral>(apart form not giving a damn)
11:06<@planetmaker>so he said. Stupid reasons IMHO. But it's exercising freedom
11:07<dihedral>with misleading / wrong motives
11:07<@planetmaker>can there be wrong motives? It's his freedom to think how he likes :-)
11:07<dihedral>because it's possible to have a neutral standing without simply not caring about anything
11:07<dihedral>of course there can be wrong motives
11:07<@planetmaker>but is that wrong to "not care"?
11:07<@planetmaker>why is it wrong?
11:08<dihedral>to not care about certain matters, thats fine
11:08<dihedral>or to not dare to make a judgement as one does not consider oneself to have enough background information
11:09<dihedral>but to not care for the sake of not caring?
11:09<@planetmaker>good. and why is that now morally inferior?
11:10<dihedral>to live a lie as you cut out every problem that might exist in this world simply to not know about it in order to have no bad conscience
11:11<@planetmaker>I think it's self-deception
11:11<dihedral>exactly
11:12<dihedral>which is what i consider unhealthy
11:13<dihedral>however, if he had a point of view in certain matters (other than 'i do not give a ...') he might come to the same result, and that then is perfectly fine :-P
11:14<@planetmaker>quite so
11:15<dihedral>of course i can be wrong in my assumptions :-D
11:17<@planetmaker>that's your right to be :-P
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11:26<iconiK>Ahh, the joys of scan lines on a VGA connection, due to the 50 Hz AC frequency. Nice.
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12:40<andythenorth>efening
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12:48<Zuu>TrueBrain: Do you have any plan to resolve a way to bind a GS to a scenario after the scenario is created?
12:49<Zuu>For the tutorial, should the scenario be created with or without the tutorial GS?
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13:34<@Terkhen>hello
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r23824 /trunk/src/lang/ (5 files in 2 dirs):
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: french - 22 changes by OliTTD
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: german - 82 changes by NG
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: latvian - 24 changes by Parastais
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: spanish - 1 changes by Terkhen
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: tamil - 83 changes by aswn
13:51<Zuu>Does the string system in OpenTTD support \n or is there a different code for newlines? I'm thinking of GSGoal.Question in particular.
13:52<Zuu>In my sign-based menu I had support for new lines and though that \n was a good marker for new lines, but now I get ?? in the text when using the API to display messages.
13:53<@Rubidium>Zuu: use {}
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14:04<Eddi|zuHause>"berlin main station (upper) must be renewed for 10 million €"
14:04<Eddi|zuHause>it was just opened 5 years ago...
14:05<SpComb>leaking roof, etc?
14:05<Eddi|zuHause>wear and tear on the bridge
14:06<Eddi|zuHause>"due to the curved bridge, a special construction needed to be developed, but this was not done due to time constraints (must be ready for world cup 2006)
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14:13<Zuu>Hmm, using {} only works if the string sits in lang/english.txt. If the string is passed as a literal string to the API, then no line breaks are inserted.
14:13-!-HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@88.130.183.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:14<@Alberth>strgen mangles the lang/english.txt strings :p
14:14<Eddi|zuHause>so issue the same stringcode that strgen uses
14:18-!-JVassie [~James@2.27.85.224] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:18<Zuu>Or, I should just stick to english.txt as that makes the tutorial translatable :-)
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14:24<@Yexo>Zuu: for literal strings using \n might work
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14:25<Zuu>I tried \n but it did turn into "??" on the screen.
14:25<Zuu>As in writing "\n" in the squirrel script.
14:26<@Yexo>than it seems putting the string in lang/english.txt is your only option
14:26<Zuu>So that the newline character gets generated.
14:31<Eddi|zuHause>"Berlin Tegel closes on 2nd June, the new airport in Schönefeld opens on 3rd June. inbetween 600 trucks transport the technical equipment."
14:32<@Rubidium>so it's really gone in a little over five months?
14:32<Eddi|zuHause>apparently
14:32<@Rubidium>but Schoenefeld is pretty open already, isn't it?
14:33<Eddi|zuHause>there's an "old" airport in Schönefeld already
14:33<@Rubidium>I'm talking about the one with a train station
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14:35<Eddi|zuHause>afaik the train station at the new airport is already open
14:35<Wolf01>hello
14:36<Eddi|zuHause>i guess it's already used by construction workers and stuff
14:36-!-Jogio [~5080f492@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd
14:36<Jogio>good evening
14:36<@Rubidium>well, I've flown to Schoenefeld like 7 months ago
14:37<Eddi|zuHause>Schönefeld was the airport of east-berlin, while tegel and tempelhof were the airports of west-berlin
14:38<@Rubidium>there's also berlin brandenburg
14:38<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that's the new one
14:38<Eddi|zuHause>it's directly next to the old one
14:40<Eddi|zuHause>http://maps.google.de/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=de&geocode=+&ie=UTF8ll=52.369625,13.503399&spn=0.072948,0.098019&t=h&z=13&vpsrc=6 <-- you see the old airport in the north and the new airport in the south
14:47<@Rubidium>so it's just another terminal at SXF
14:47<Eddi|zuHause>i assume they close the existing terminal
14:48<Eddi|zuHause>and reroute all the planes to the new one
14:49<@Rubidium>yup
14:49<Eddi|zuHause>if you look closely, you see the old runway has already been cut by the A113
14:49<@Rubidium>to bad they haven't improved the RE/RB frequency ;)
14:50<Eddi|zuHause>well, they certainly increase the flight frequency, once they reroute all planes from tegel
14:50<Jogio>who is NG? this guy made some big changes in german translation
14:51<Eddi|zuHause>which there's a slight chance it could be stopped by the constitutional court or the european court for human rights
14:51<Jogio>some are good but he also changed many vehicle names
14:52<Jogio>chimera is now "Chimäre"
14:52<Eddi|zuHause>dunno if that's a good or bad change
14:53<Jogio>i don't like it
14:55<Jogio>and "Güterwaggon" is now "Warenwagen"
14:55<Eddi|zuHause>that's kinda silly
14:55<Jogio>he don't like "Waggon" it's now all "wagen"
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>that may be debatable
14:56<Jogio>http://hg.openttd.org/openttd/trunk.hg/rev/e9212a79fc8a
14:56<Jogio>here is link to look
14:57<Eddi|zuHause>you know in which topic to raise the issue :)
14:59<Eddi|zuHause>why is that page incapable of displaying utf8?
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14:59<Eddi|zuHause>http://hg.openttd.org/openttd/trunk.hg/diff/e9212a79fc8a/src/lang/german.txt <-- and use this link for only the german change
15:00*Alberth was looking for it too, but you already found it :)
15:00<Jogio>Maybe he can't stop if he changed some strings and had to do more ... :-)
15:00<Jogio>do you know what a "Verschlagwagen" is?
15:00<Eddi|zuHause>yes
15:00<Eddi|zuHause>i have a feeling NG is oberhümer
15:00<Jogio>hmm ok
15:01<Jogio>i don't
15:01<Eddi|zuHause>Jogio: but the general user maybe doesn't
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15:02<lololol>hio
15:02<@Alberth>oih
15:02<lololol>hio
15:02<Jogio>"Zyclop" statt "Cyclops" find ich aber z.B gar nicht schlecht
15:02<lololol>lol
15:02<Jogio>*"Zyklop"
15:03<Jogio>sorry forgot to write english
15:03<Eddi|zuHause>"Während für den Transport von Rindern und anderem Großvieh entweder offene oder gedeckte Güterwagen der Regelbauart Verwendung fanden, wurden für Kleinvieh schon im 19. Jahrhundert spezielle Verschlagwagen entwickelt. Der etwa 2 m hohe Laderaum wird hierbei optimal ausgenutzt, indem Schweine, Ziegen und Schafe in zwei Ebenen verladen werden. Bei einigen Wagen waren für den Transport von Geflügel weitere Zwischenböden montierbar."
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15:05<Jogio>ok, learned something new
15:06<@Alberth>that's more detailed than expected :)
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15:07<Eddi|zuHause>i don't remember how the original wagons look like
15:08<Eddi|zuHause>but the ones in the DBSet are not Verschlagwagen, they're regular closed wagons (for large livestock)
15:08<Eddi|zuHause>(i.e. mostly cows)
15:10<Jogio>do you think somewhere cattle is still transported with trains today?
15:10<Eddi|zuHause>unlikely
15:10<Eddi|zuHause>at least not in europe
15:10<Jogio>I think not too
15:10<Jogio>europe is big
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15:16<@Belugas>ho... cattle... I read castle :S
15:17<Jogio>a rolling castle
15:19<@Belugas>yeah... so imagine how silly the question seemed to be, from my point of view ;)
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15:25<@planetmaker>I really wished this NG would communicate *somehow* instead of re-editing all the language file without any comment and discussion
15:27<@planetmaker>I'm quite tempted to run at least a partial revert on that
15:27<andythenorth>cattle by train - AU http://www.flickr.com/photos/llandewi/5444035869/
15:28<@planetmaker>"Erweiterungsserver"
15:29<@planetmaker>nor do I actually agree with "Verschlagwagen" and "Warenwagen"
15:29<@planetmaker>even if technically it can be argued to be correct
15:29<Jogio>hi planetmaker
15:29<Eddi|zuHause>i vaguely remember that we had a discussion about "warenwagen" years ago
15:29<@planetmaker>possibly yes
15:29<@planetmaker>hi Jogio
15:30<Eddi|zuHause>i guess we decided that it was a silly idea
15:30<@planetmaker>quite so
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15:31<@planetmaker>obviously that person read what we discussed. But did way more
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15:32<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=730243#p730243
15:33<Jogio>I think you can't translate things like "chimera" or "wizzowow". Nobody will understand you then when you play multiplayer with english people
15:33<@Terkhen>I did not translate them for spanish
15:34<@Rubidium>1) who plays toyland in MP?
15:34<@Rubidium>2) which games last long enough to have maglev in MP?
15:34<Eddi|zuHause>s/ in MP//
15:35*Alberth raises hand on the first question with eddi's change
15:35<Eddi|zuHause>but if NG is really oberhümer, didn't he recently argue that vehicle names shouldn't be translated at all?
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15:35<@planetmaker>Rubidium: every game on our servers?
15:35<xiong>HA. The light bulb glows dimly. That cargodist has the paradoxical result that if a line is unprofitable, you might *add* vehicles and the line becomes profitable.
15:37<@Rubidium>don't they usually have NewGRFs and as such no maglev?
15:37<@Rubidium>or a NewGRF maglev, which doesn't use the name of the original vehicle
15:38<@planetmaker>if we use maglev we usually use the default one
15:38<xiong>Also, since cargo routes from A to B via multiple lines, the profitability of any line depends on the health of the whole connected subgraph. So little is to be gained from studying per-vehicle or per-line profit. (!)
15:38<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: Jogio so what do we now about the mis-translated vehicle names?
15:39<@Rubidium>food fight?
15:39<@planetmaker>I told already once NG quite urgently to discuss bigger changes with the community
15:39<@planetmaker>and gave the thread here
15:39<@planetmaker>which obviously were read...
15:39<@planetmaker>thus I don't get it :S
15:39<Jogio>don't know, reset all names to old? or just the worst?
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15:41<Eddi|zuHause>i'd probably vote for revert. "if it's not broken, don't fix it"
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15:43<@planetmaker>I can live though with the translation of the "speaking" names
15:43<@planetmaker>but I don't understand "wizzowow rocketeer" -> "Wutschoha Rakete"
15:44<Jogio>maybe he thought he has to be creative and design a better name
15:44<Jogio>but Wizzowow Raketenwagen would sound cool "_"
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15:45<@planetmaker>Rocketeer is "Raketenmann"
15:46<@planetmaker>what about the Wasserwege -> Wasserstraßen ?
15:46<@planetmaker>I prefer Wasserwege slightly. As it's the "Wasserwegenetzwerk"
15:46-!-JVassie [~James@86.17.13.33] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:47<@planetmaker>though both Wasserwege and Wasserstraßen is acceptable
15:47<Jogio>yeah for me this don't matter
15:48<Jogio>and he translated Recoloursprite in Umfärbesprite
15:48<@planetmaker>outsch. Where?
15:48<@planetmaker>IMHO that's untranslatable
15:49<Jogio>line 1168,1173
15:49<@planetmaker>hm
15:51<Jogio>STR_SPRITE_ALIGNER_NEXT_TOOLTIP
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15:53*Zuu wonders if table.rawget(key) might be a function that has been pulled out of Squirrel in OpenTTD.
15:53<@Yexo>don't think so
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15:55<@Yexo>nope, definitely not
15:55<@planetmaker>Jogio: or is NG your account? ;-)
15:56<@planetmaker>I thought I'd see some edits from you the last days (but I know you said you had no account) :-)
15:57<Jogio>no I have my own now
15:57<Jogio>he also changed some things I already changed
15:57<Zuu>It turnes out my code was wrong. :-)
15:58<Zuu>I passed along the name of a table key in the wrong Tutorial step.
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16:05<@planetmaker>he's obviously still editing it...
16:09<Jogio>maybe he want to rewrite allstrings
16:10<Jogio>we present a new game "Offen TTD"
16:12<Jogio>can you close his account and display a message to write something in thread in tt-forum if he wants to enter again?
16:12<@Alberth>"Offen TTD" cannot be right, in German you merge all words, and this word is already one word in English :p
16:14<Jogio>"GeöffnetTTD"
16:15<Jogio>this better?
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16:16<@Terkhen>http://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/press-releases/justice-department-charges-leaders-of-megaupload-with-widespread-online-copyright-infringement
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16:17<@Rubidium>Terkhen: they should start suing the mother companies of say... download.com and cnet.com (and the mother companies of their affiliated sites)
16:18<@planetmaker>sounds good, Jogio ;-)
16:18<@Terkhen>it's quite significant that this happens the day after the blackout :)
16:18-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590d5cdd.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd
16:20<@Rubidium>hi frosch123
16:20<frosch123>evening :)
16:20<@Terkhen>hi frosch123
16:22<@planetmaker>so... do we use (as now) -waggon and -transporter mixed? Or use -wagen?
16:23<@planetmaker>he replaces all 'waggon' by 'wagen'
16:23<Jogio>I think transporter only for road vehicles
16:23<Jogio>let it as "waggon"
16:24<@planetmaker>it's a bit mixed. But let's check ingam
16:24<@planetmaker>e
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>really, i haven't played with original vehicles in ages
16:29<@planetmaker>http://imagebin.org/194502
16:30<Jogio>i think changing all names to the old is the best. Maybe he don't change things randomly next time if he sees it is all the same as before again
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16:31<@planetmaker>There's a point in making it more uniform. Though it's also not the case in the English
16:33<@planetmaker>I mean... I don't mind change. It's not necessarily bad. But we IMHO have quite a healthy way to discuss the bigger changes to existing stuff for the German translation. And... we should make use of it
16:33<@planetmaker>and yes, I hope he'll recognize it.
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16:38<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: "the mega conspiracy"
16:41<Eddi|zuHause>i'm willing to bet my money that in the next few days/weeks/months this will hold as a prime example on why we need more SOPA-like laws
16:43<@Terkhen>yes :)
16:44<@Terkhen>a stunt to counter the blackout publicity :P
16:44<@planetmaker>anyway... sent NG again an e-mail
16:46<Wolf01>'night
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16:47*Terkhen has no clue if it had any visibility, though
16:47<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: I fear it'll be money lost, if I'd bet against you ;-)
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16:56<@Rubidium>really... why only megaupload? Why not download.com?
16:57<@Rubidium>I guess it's bad "news" that the SOPA proponents are then going to be sueing themselves
16:57<Eddi|zuHause>it'd be interesting to see a class action lawsuit now by all people who had *legal* content on that site
16:58<@Rubidium>I guess there's a clause stating that megaupload may remove content
16:59<@Rubidium>but actually... being able to sue megaupload for piracy now is also a good example that SOPA isn't needed, after all it's already possible with the current law
17:02<Eddi|zuHause>it is... all the security law stuff since 9/11 is just publicity stunts... nothing really changed...
17:06<Jogio>good night
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17:26<@Terkhen>good night
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18:01<Zuu>Hmm, GS can't read orders of vehicles
18:01<Eddi|zuHause>maybe you need to switch to the company first?
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18:28<frosch123>night
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18:42*Zuu thinks OpenTTD got zombie messages.
18:42<Zuu>At least I got a GSGoal.Question window showing up in chapter 1.2 that should only show in chapter 1.1 :-)
18:43<Zuu>In 1.1 it is closed by GSWindow.Close(...)
18:46-!-Devroush [~dennis@178-119-153-135.access.telenet.be] has quit []
18:46<Zuu>Apparently, I have used the wrong window_number to close it in chapter 1.1, but that shouldn't make it close as a zomibe that wakes up in 1.2 :-)
18:48<Zuu>by using the correct window_number it now don't show up again :-)
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19:22<Eddi|zuHause>i guess that failed, then.
19:24<Rhamphoryncus>Well now, obviously :P
19:25<@planetmaker>and again :-P :-)
19:25<Rhamphoryncus>Yup. Seems useless to even try now. Might as well give up and talk
19:26<Rhamphoryncus>So.. haven't been here since early 2010. Something made me want to play again >.>
19:26<@planetmaker>best time to talk is EU evening. Usually ;-) And some addiction just stick
19:27<Rhamphoryncus>I soon rediscovered how frustrating timetabling is. So I'm trying to fix it. Again. Like the last time I played.
19:28<Eddi|zuHause>tried the 24h clock mod?
19:28<Rhamphoryncus>nope. I did read up on one but it didn't seem like what I was looking for. It looked like more of an interface tweak than a fundamental fix
19:29<Eddi|zuHause>what kind of fundamental change are you looking for?
19:29<Rhamphoryncus>Make train, set route, clone 30 more trains, hit button to turn on, walk away.
19:30<Eddi|zuHause>ah, you'll be searching for autoseparation then
19:31<Rhamphoryncus>I'm not opposed to an interface that gives you manual control of the intervals. It just needs to be a sane interface on the route, not individual trains
19:31<Zuu>Do you use shared orders?
19:32<Rhamphoryncus>Once I tripped across them on the wiki, yes
19:35<Rhamphoryncus>Last time I made a patch that mostly worked, but it was a giant bodge. This time I'm trying to make a good patch
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19:45<Eddi|zuHause>be sure you include options for both people who want to "fire and forget", and people who want to tweak every little detail (like round-trip time, buffer time at end stations, synchronization with other timetables, ...)
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19:46<Rhamphoryncus>yeah
19:47<Eddi|zuHause>and try out this patch: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=54332
19:47<Rhamphoryncus>That all goes in to setting the schedule. Once it's figured out is the hard part: gracefully compensating when your vehicles don't stick to it.
19:48<Eddi|zuHause>one thing i had trouble with all previous timetabling patches: if roadvehicle A is stuck behind roadvehicle B of the same route and can't overtake, then it should switch out the timetabling between the two
19:49<Rhamphoryncus>Huh, that one looks decent
19:50<Rhamphoryncus>Yeah, that's key in my mind
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19:58<Eddi|zuHause>"Washington DC will be one of the first regions suffering from rising ocean"
20:00-!-Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has quit []
20:02<Eddi|zuHause>"if the local sea level were to rise by just 0.1 meter, or about 4 inches, by 2043, nearly 68,000 people would be affected, and property damage would total upwards of $2 billion - without including damage to military bases and government property."
20:05<Elukka>i bet some significant percentage of those people would still deny we had anything to do with it
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---Logclosed Fri Jan 20 00:00:52 2012