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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-01-20

---Logopened Fri Jan 20 00:00:52 2012
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00:49<Sandra2012>Come chat with me guys.. http://bit.ly/wkbzel
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00:53<Sandra2012>Come chat with me guys.. http://bit.ly/wkbzel
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00:57<Sandra2012>Come chat with me guys.. http://bit.ly/wkbzel
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00:57-!-mode/#openttd [+b Sandra2012!*@*] by SmatZ
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03:26<dihedral>greetings
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04:39<@planetmaker>calc 1.02**54
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04:57<@Yexo>good morning
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05:13<@planetmaker>moin
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05:37<appe>jesus
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05:37<appe>the ex foreign minister of sweden refered to the us as "a future subject for north koreans"
05:37<appe>the worst thing is that it's true..
05:51<appe>the irony, playing openttd whilst on the db regio head office.
05:57<__ln__>you?
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06:00<appe>yes
06:00<appe>my girlfriend works with the trains
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07:03<Rhamphoryncus>1900 is quite painful
07:04<andythenorth>?
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07:05<Rhamphoryncus>Look at the horses go :P
07:08<@planetmaker><Rhamphoryncus> [13:03:27] 1900 is quite painful <-- that's why we live in 2012 ;-)
07:09<Rhamphoryncus>Yeah, but I don't think we'll get a hoverbus in 2030
07:10<andythenorth>Rhamphoryncus: try something else beginning with H
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07:10<Rhamphoryncus>.. can't figure out what you mean
07:11<ARyan>hello
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07:13<@planetmaker>Rhamphoryncus, it was a shameless plug by andythenorth. He means HEQS
07:13<@planetmaker>Shameless or not, it'd be my recommendation, too
07:13*andythenorth is shameless marketeer
07:13<andythenorth>but also I sat watching horses go slowly, and decided to fix it :P
07:14<Rhamphoryncus>Hmm, I remember using that when I last played several years ago
07:15<@planetmaker>several years ago? HEQS?
07:15<@planetmaker>Seems to not quite fit
07:15<andythenorth>HEQS is ~2 years old
07:15<@planetmaker>(for me several >> 2, but at least >2)
07:16<andythenorth>one, many :P
07:17<Rhamphoryncus>Okay, I last played a little under two years ago, but I had played more before that. HEQS was probably towards the end
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07:18<andythenorth>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=981914#p981914
07:18<andythenorth>orudge: is there a phpBB switch for 'permalink to this post' ?
07:19<@planetmaker>that's what you posted
07:19<andythenorth>if so, could I request it be turned on? :)
07:19<andythenorth>I get that by clicking 'pm' then copying the post ID from the textarea
07:19<@planetmaker>the link you get for the small icon in the upper right remains the same
07:19<Rhamphoryncus>How well does it balance with generic tram set and eGRVTS?
07:20<@planetmaker>the icon left of Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 5:01 pm
07:20<@planetmaker>try that, andythenorth
07:20<andythenorth>ah hah
07:20<andythenorth>that is the permalink
07:21<Rhamphoryncus>and the comment on the first page about not being a really big mining truck makes me want a really big mining truck. It'd need a new track type, representing the special dirt roads. :D
07:21<@planetmaker>'copy link location' from the context menu gives you it, yes
07:21<andythenorth>planetmaker: thankss :)
07:21<@planetmaker>welcome
07:21<@planetmaker>I use it often enough :-)
07:21<@planetmaker>or click on the title of the _posting_ (not thread) and then copy the browser URL
07:22<andythenorth>I've been doing it the hard way :P
07:22<andythenorth>I only make internets for a job :P
07:22<Rhamphoryncus>browsing the source to find the anchor?
07:23<andythenorth>just assumed it was turned off :P
07:23<andythenorth>assumptions assumptions assumptions
07:23*andythenorth back to work, making internets
07:23*Rhamphoryncus gives andythenorth some tubes
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07:34<xiong>Okay, now cargodist is coming clear. The critical points are related to the structure of the network, not to vehicles per se.
07:35<xiong>At least with pax, which is all I've tried; perhaps mail as well since that's symmetric traffic, too:
07:37-!-FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd
07:38<xiong>A) Do not run "circulators". In vanilla I was in the habit of establishing 4 bus stops equally spaced about a town center and running a local circulating service. This might seem to work well with cargodist as a feeder service but pax end up making time-consuming stops where they don't want to go.
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07:41<xiong>B) Initially weight capacity toward the "middle" of the graph, which should now resemble a tree. I made the mistake of running good service between two towns, then between two others; finally connecting -- weakly -- one from each pair. It's no surprise that a great deal of pax wanted to travel over the weak link.
07:41<Rhamphoryncus>xiong: How do you mean? People get off and on again at every stop?
07:42<xiong>Rhamphoryncus, are you asking in reference to A or B?
07:42<Rhamphoryncus>A
07:43<xiong>Yes, I thought so but wasn't sure. No, the problem is exactly that pax do *not* load/unload at each circulator stop, as they do in vanilla.
07:44<xiong>Rather, they wait patiently until the bus moves on to their desired stop. The stop time is wasted, the pax are that much later getting where they're going.
07:44<@planetmaker>Rhamphoryncus, mind, if you don't play patched OpenTTD, with cargodist, it's irrelevant ;-)
07:45<Rhamphoryncus>Ahh, so even if nobody is embarking/disembarking it still does a full stop?
07:45<Rhamphoryncus>planetmaker: I *am* playing with cargodist :)
07:45<xiong>In the case of a route that goes clockwise around town center 1-2-3-4, worst case has pax boarding at 1 who want to go to 4; the travel is 3 times the distance paid.
07:45<+michi_cc>xiong: You know, that is the whole point of all cargod?st implementation.
07:45<xiong>Rhamphoryncus, that seems to be my experience. Same for you?
07:46<xiong>michi_cc, Yes, it's obvious, now.
07:46<Rhamphoryncus>xiong: ahh, yeah. That encourages you to have better routes :)
07:47<xiong>I'm playing with chillpack and I'm also using automated timetabling; so vehicles like to waste a day or two at a stop in any case.
07:47<Rhamphoryncus>I might do a 3-point triangle, but any more I'd rather have bidirectional lines that cross at a common hub
07:48<@planetmaker>Try cargodist with one (or a few) major hubs. And regional networks attached there
07:48<@planetmaker>Makes for interesting building
07:48<xiong>Thank you, Rhamphoryncus; that's my thinking. I'm not even too sure about triangle routes; if the triangle is equilateral, worst-case travel distance is twice what you get paid for.
07:48<@planetmaker>While keeping it managable at the same time
07:48<Rhamphoryncus>I'd consider having two routes going at opposite directions
07:48<xiong>Yes, planetmaker: hub and spoke, smaller hubs and spokes. No circulators.
07:49<@planetmaker>well. Depends ;-)
07:49<@planetmaker>An olympic ring network certainly would work :-)
07:49<Rhamphoryncus>I'm not sure how well it balances between directions when your circulator has both clockwise and counterclockwise
07:49<@planetmaker>with hubs where they cross
07:50<xiong>Rhamphoryncus, Tried that. Ran local service with two sets of vehicles, one clockwise, one counter-clockwise. Fail. Pax still board the next vehicle that seems to have a decent shot of taking them to their dest.
07:50<Rhamphoryncus>xiong: ergh. It may only weight for saturation, not efficiency x_x
07:50<xiong>I'm going to shut this game down now since I've learned important lessons and try strictly out-and-back service next time.
07:51<xiong>I'll give ships another go. I'm not yet convinced they're broken in cargodist, not yet; although the plausible explanation was offered.
07:51*Rhamphoryncus likes truck loading bays so much he puts a truck loading bay in his truck loading bay. Then clicks again, paying a *third* time.
07:51<xiong>I think you're exactly correct, Rhamphoryncus.
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08:08<Rhamphoryncus>Got a coal line that's about 15 long.. got 30 carriages on it, trying to keep up
08:10<@planetmaker>15 tiles? That's short
08:10<@planetmaker>Sounds like work for RV typically
08:10<xiong>Oh yeah, forgot: I also notice that the link graph calculates the location of a disjoint station at what appears to be the barycenter, not the first "sign" tile. I suspect the payout is so calculated, too.
08:10<@planetmaker>or for HEQS trams rather
08:11<xiong>Rhamphoryncus, yah, your omission of units makes that statement look weird.
08:11<Rhamphoryncus>15 tiles, 30 horse-draw carriages
08:11<xiong>Ah.
08:12<xiong>I too am a horse man. I start in 1850. What kind of world has no transportation at all in 1950??
08:12<Rhamphoryncus>heh
08:13<Elukka>what kind of world has no public roads between cities?
08:14<Rhamphoryncus>what kind of world only has one type of road?
08:14<Elukka>would it be possible to make an AI that had a practically infinite amount of money, built a road network and then more or less shut down?
08:16<Rhamphoryncus>Pity one-way roads just make it into a single-lane one-way
08:17<Rhamphoryncus>aaaand I have a backlog a little over halfway around this route
08:20<@planetmaker>Elukka, that's called game script
08:20<@planetmaker>answer is thus: yes
08:21<Elukka>hm. that'd be a cool thing
08:21<@planetmaker>practically that exists as real AI already, though. It will just bancrupt, but roads will remain
08:21<@planetmaker>and a new such AI will emerge. Works also
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08:34<Rhamphoryncus>Ahh, seems to have solved it. Double-road, balanced, and make the roro truck stops 2 long so that queueing actually works.
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08:38<Rhamphoryncus>xiong: hrm, cargodist is *supposed* to handle cycles. I don't suppose you were using a single route to go all the way around, rather than a series of individual routes?
08:39<Rhamphoryncus>It might be failing because the pax have a series of hops they want and your train does them all
08:43<Elukka>my first thought on your nick was 'but it's spelled rhamphorhynchus!' and i have no idea how the hell i remember how to spell something like that
08:43<Rhamphoryncus>lol. Have you been here for years? I used to come here 2 years ago
08:44<Rhamphoryncus>And you're right, it is spelled rhamphorhynchus. Mine's an archaic spelling. From a kid's dinosaur book many years ago.
08:44<xiong>Elukka, that would actually be fairly realistic -- not quite but nearly -- in some parts of the world just a century ago. Even as recently as 1919, the future General and President Eisenhower found it well-nigh impossible to drive the US coast-to-coast.
08:44<Elukka>nah i've only come here fairly recently
08:45<Rhamphoryncus>xiong: we need multiple grades of roads, with very crude dirt ones that get upgraded and upgraded
08:45<xiong>Rhamphoryncus, I was running, as was my vanilla habit, four horse carriage "buses" clockwise around four road stops. And as I said, adding CCW didn't seem to help much.
08:45<xiong>Ah, now you're thinking SimCity.
08:45<Rhamphoryncus>xiong: try splitting into 4 routes
08:46<@planetmaker>that's called road types
08:46<xiong>Dirt roads, two-laners, expressways, superhighways.
08:46<+michi_cc>Try YACD instead :p
08:46<@planetmaker>:-)
08:47*planetmaker misses the one, two FIRS yacd games. Were loads of fun :-)
08:47<xiong>I'd be happier if I didn't get so many wacky towns centered on tiny islands... with enormously long bridges, with two houses on the far end.
08:48<xiong>But then, Rhamphoryncus, we have to ask about rail classes.
08:48<Rhamphoryncus>heh
08:48<@planetmaker>you have them, xiong
08:48<@planetmaker>just use an appropriate newgrf
08:49<Rhamphoryncus>Those bridges wouldn't look so silly if there was a dirt road network attached to it
08:49<xiong>Narrow gauge? Welded? Washed-out ballast? Concrete tie?
08:49<@planetmaker>you actually even have them by default. called raill, el. rail, monorail and maglev ;-)
08:49<@planetmaker>xiong, exactly. Just grab it
08:50<xiong>Fact is, if you want a certain level of detail, you need to go to the hobby store and tell the man what you want. Then you start annoying everyone else in your life.
08:52<xiong>It's been suggested to me that since I moved into a one-bedroom apt; and since I live alone (nobody to annoy much) and use the bedroom only for storage; I *might* just start slapping plaster on plywood.
08:52<Rhamphoryncus>aww, gotta stop playing so I can get other things done
08:52*Rhamphoryncus activates lurk mode!
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09:45<@Belugas>hello
09:46*Belugas is sad today. Megaupload death is a very bad news.
09:47<@Belugas>i'll have to dig new sites for my entertainment now :(
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09:54<TrueBrain>one of the gazillion others? :P
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10:10<@Belugas>I'm new to it!
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13:04<Guest24629>hola, alguien habla español?
13:04<Guest24629>hello, someone spack spanish?
13:04<__ln__>algunos
13:05<Guest24629>hola, me puedes resolver una duda del juego?
13:05<Guest24629>los botones para crear estaciones y almacenes de autobuses me vienen desactivados
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13:06<Guest24629>del transport tycoon me refiero
13:06<__ln__>hmm... no sé. ¿cúal año es?
13:07<Guest24629>pero este no es el canal?
13:07<Guest24629>el del juego?
13:08<__ln__>es el canal del OpenTTD
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13:19*TrueBrain wonders how __ln__ would react if I now kick him for not speaking english :D Or is that too hard? :P
13:20<__ln__>i'm still the biggest advocate of the 'english only' rule, i only disobey it when i speak another language myself
13:24<Xaroth>kick it kick it :P
13:24<Xaroth>and by it i mean NOT me.
13:24*Xaroth eyes TrueBrain
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13:25<TrueBrain>I guess I am in a good mood
13:25<TrueBrain>else Xaroth would have been kicked by now
13:25<TrueBrain>sometimes I surprise myself
13:25<Xaroth>sometimes you surprise even me...
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13:29<Wolf01>evenink
13:29<__ln__>buon vada-a-bordo
13:30<__ln__>english only
13:30<andythenorth>:m
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13:33<@Belugas>i vote for not kicking, since it was actually helping someone new around :)
13:33<TrueBrain>Belugas: that is the problem; can you be sure?
13:34<@Belugas>well... i know enough of spanish to understand what has been told :)
13:34<TrueBrain>:D :)
13:35<Prof_Frink>Something about canals.
13:36<Eddi|zuHause>i think it was whether this is a control channel for botnets
13:36<@Belugas>he was wondering why the buttons to create stations were inactive :)
13:36<__ln__>and i said i don't know and asked what year it is
13:37<@Belugas>and then, what game been used. looked like it was ttd, and not openttd, since he left afterward
13:37<Eddi|zuHause>and he asked whether he was old enough to know about such stuff
13:37<@Belugas>aaahh... debug session started
13:37<@Belugas>see you
13:41<Eddi|zuHause>i have a feeling the default network timeouts are a tad too low
13:41*andythenorth is having fun times with missing data
13:41<andythenorth>this is not generally a good thing
13:41<andythenorth>nor specifically a good thing
13:41<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: can you retrace your steps where you did put the data last?
13:42<andythenorth>customer data
13:42<andythenorth>important customer data
13:42<andythenorth>:|
13:42*andythenorth back to work
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r23825 /trunk/src/lang/ (belarusian.txt german.txt russian.txt welsh.txt):
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: belarusian - 2 changes by KorneySan
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: german - 49 changes by planetmaker
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: russian - 2 changes by Lone_Wolf
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: welsh - 17 changes by kazzie
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13:55<@Terkhen>hello
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14:40<andythenorth>hi Terkhen
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15:18<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23826 /trunk/src/ (9 files in 4 dirs): -Fix [FS#4972]: the detailed performance rating window showed the cargo count of the current quarter instead of the last quarter like the tooltip says
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16:02<frosch123>web hosting is a silly business...
16:03<frosch123>the more detailed and serious the providers appear, the cheaper they become
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16:05<@Rubidium>benefits of scale I'd guess
16:10<andythenorth>frosch123: you are overlooking rackspace clearly :p
16:11<andythenorth>Alberth: sanity in the newgrf industry spec? have you been smoking crack today? :)
16:11<frosch123>it is definitely one of the more sane ones :p
16:12<Eddi|zuHause>"better than the station specs"? :p
16:14<frosch123>imo stations < vehicles < cargos < houses < industries
16:14<frosch123>no idea where to put townnames, rails and objects though :p
16:14<@Alberth>frosch123: locally deciding based on static data how the industries in the world should evolve without the openttd program being able to intervene or even give hints
16:15<@Alberth>townnames are juts eye-candy :p
16:15<@Alberth>*just
16:15<frosch123>oh, signals < stations < ...
16:15<andythenorth>vehicles < industries ?
16:15<andythenorth>nope
16:16<frosch123>so you succeded in refittable articulated vehicles? :p
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>depends on what you define as "sane"
16:16<andythenorth>my articulated vehicles are refittable after much studying of failures :P
16:16<frosch123>vehicles have the most arcane, deprecated, conflicting... etc things
16:17<andythenorth>and provision of buy menu magic
16:17<andythenorth>and ensuring lead vehicle is refittable or not depending on your flavour of madness
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>buy menu magic is probably the most problematic
16:17<andythenorth>vehicles have a sane spec in terms of affordances to authors
16:17<andythenorth>but an insane implementation
16:17<andythenorth>industries have the wrong set of affordances
16:18<andythenorth>and the implementation is relatively sane
16:18<andythenorth>you can do all the wrong things quite easily
16:19<andythenorth>maybe industries should get their own script space
16:19<andythenorth>cos adding yet more stuff definitely won't make everything worse :P
16:20<Eddi|zuHause>"embedded newgrf script"
16:20<Eddi|zuHause>that's gonna make things... interesting :p
16:21<andythenorth>opening and closing are the worst
16:21<andythenorth>having to deal with industry spacing yourself is ok, but seems a bit baroque
16:21<andythenorth>everything else is kind of ok as far as I recall
16:25<andythenorth>no it's not
16:25<andythenorth>spawning
16:25<andythenorth>why make the newgrf deal solely with that?
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16:28<@Alberth>#input/output cargos could be a bit more flexible imho
16:28<frosch123>yeah, but scripts cannot deal with such stuff :p
16:31<@Alberth>hmm, are OpenGFX+farms supposed to produce wheat/livestock in the snow (arctic)?
16:31<frosch123>hmm, otoh, maybe
16:31<frosch123>opengfx+industries seem to try to produce any cargo available to any climate
16:32<@planetmaker>it can do that.
16:33<@planetmaker>by default it doesn't change the industries. It modifies cargos, though
16:33<frosch123>true, it is coded in nml, so it is supposed to have tons of parameters :)
16:33<andythenorth>changing input/output stores you up a lot of insanity
16:34<@planetmaker>lol, frosch123. But... might be true
16:35<@Alberth>frosch123: I know, I translated the strings, however I have not yet set any of them :p
16:36<@planetmaker>Alberth: wheat/livestock might be default. It doesn't treat farms differently for climates.
16:36<@planetmaker>But it allows you to select the cargo ;-)
16:36<frosch123>opengfx+industries is like manual industries, but more sane :p
16:37<@planetmaker>but it might be a different cargo name there. But... that's of no effect
16:38<frosch123>so, what now
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16:38<@Alberth>I was actually asking about production being non-zero while the farm is buried in the snow
16:38<frosch123>for some reason i did not have dinner yet, even though i am hungry
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16:38<andythenorth>Alberth: making production 0 in winter sucks for gameplay
16:38*frosch123 expores the kitchen
16:39<andythenorth>you don't see the store sheds? :o
16:39<@Alberth>andythenorth: good point
16:39<andythenorth>lots of 'train is losing money' messages also
16:39<andythenorth>probably
16:40<andythenorth>and 'train stuck'
16:40<andythenorth>and probably epic traffic jams, depending on your play style
16:40*Alberth almost never has those messages
16:41<andythenorth>your farms don't stop in winter ;)
16:41<Xaroth>slippery rail
16:41<Xaroth>trains take 4x as long to accelerate
16:42<Xaroth>or at least down here they apparently do...
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16:45<Elukka>farms stopping during winter would only make sense gameplay wise if your vehicles automatically understood it and stopped working for the period
16:45<Eddi|zuHause>make a "summer timetable" and a "winter timetable"
16:46<andythenorth>might make much more sense with auto-refit than it used to
16:46<Eddi|zuHause>but really, the timetable system is incapable of automatically handling such temporal changes
16:46<andythenorth>when is beet season? :P
16:46<Elukka>sounds like too much effort
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16:46<@Alberth>I could perhaps if I understood how time tables worked :p
16:47<andythenorth>auto-refit orders by month
16:47<andythenorth>oct: sugar beet
16:47<andythenorth>august: wheat
16:47<Eddi|zuHause>same why a passenger peak ("rush hour") is not sanely handleable
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16:56<Nat_>how does the cargodest patch work? do I just copy all the files over my install or what?
16:56<@planetmaker>you just unzip it into a separate dir. It comes with everything it needs
16:58<Nat_>I get a bunch of bugs when I do that.
16:58<@Belugas>haaa.. pleasure of a starting weekend!
16:58<@Belugas>see ayou all!
16:59<Nat_>ini: invalid value 'SHOW_TOWN_NAMES|SHOW.... longer
16:59<Nat_>then ini: ignoring invalid NewGRF .... longer
16:59<Nat_>then the same error a few more times with my other newgrifs
16:59<@Alberth>Bye Belugas
17:00<Eddi|zuHause>it's probably because your .cfg is from a newer version
17:00<Nat_>and lastly Error! Cannot open file 'sample.cat'
17:00<Nat_>oh
17:00<Eddi|zuHause>cargodest is really old
17:00<Nat_>is this only compatible with older ones?
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17:00<Nat_>:c
17:00<Nat_>why is it not better supported?
17:00<Nat_>do people really prefer the shitty classic cargo system?
17:00<@planetmaker>oh... cargodEst?
17:00<@planetmaker>or cargodIst?
17:00<Nat_>cargodest
17:01<Nat_>the one that makes cargo have specific destinations
17:01<Nat_>like in simutrans
17:01<Nat_>http://wiki.openttd.org/Passenger_and_cargo_destinations
17:01<Nat_>http://www.openttd.org/en/download-cargodest
17:02<Eddi|zuHause>anybody fluent in xml-processing?
17:02<@planetmaker>that's of antique value only
17:02<@planetmaker>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/cargodist/ <-- use that, Nat_
17:02<Nat_>what's the last version it's compatible with?
17:02<Eddi|zuHause>it's not "compatible with" anything, it's a standalone version
17:03<Nat_>which do I download, this is a whole dir
17:03<@planetmaker>the newest
17:03<Elukka>surely a patch is compatible with some particular revision?
17:04<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, need something quick that does: "for each <Text> node: if contains <English> node, and not contains <German> node, copy <English>-content into <German>-content"
17:04<Elukka>wait are those binaries
17:04<Nat_>oh wow it even downloads the graphics
17:04<Nat_>Naughty
17:05<Elukka>oh my god they are new binaries
17:05<Elukka>finally
17:05<Elukka>for something like a year there weren't any
17:05<Nat_>if I were to say load an old game, would it work the same?
17:06<Elukka>it wouldn't load, probably
17:06<Nat_>or would the new system interact with it funny?
17:06<Nat_>it loaded
17:06<Elukka>well, dunno then
17:06<@planetmaker>Nat_: it's a patched openttd. Don't expect compatibility with other patched versions
17:07<Eddi|zuHause>Nat_: generally don't assume that a patched version loads anything.
17:07<Nat_>what about scenerios?
17:07<Eddi|zuHause>same
17:07<Nat_>:c
17:08<Elukka>that's the reason i haven't made any of the scenarios i've wanted to make
17:08<Elukka>there doesn't seem to be any safe bet with regards to what version they should be made in
17:08<@planetmaker>Elukka: you can always create the scenarios in openttd stable and load it in the patch...
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>*almost* always
17:09<@planetmaker>:-)
17:09<Nat_>well I opened the scenerio in the edtior in the patched version
17:09<Eddi|zuHause>e.g. chillpp doesn't load 1.1.x savegames
17:09<Nat_>will there be any problems?
17:09<Nat_>it seems to be running
17:09<Eddi|zuHause>Nat_: if it loaded, it will likely not cause problems
17:09<Nat_>I'm just changing a few quirks in this scenrio, it's a small map with one incomplete industry chain that can't ever be complete
17:09<Elukka>if i make a scenario in stable can it be expected to work with stuff like cargodist and future stables?
17:09<Nat_>because the map has no place forests can spawn
17:10<Elukka>i mean, i realize there's no absolute guarantee and openttd might be very different in 10 years, but as a general rule
17:10<Eddi|zuHause>Nat_: but if you save the scenario in cargodist, you will never ever be able to load it anywhere else
17:10<Nat_>okay
17:10<@planetmaker>Elukka: in future openttd: yes. future patch: most probable
17:10<Eddi|zuHause>Nat_: not in normal openttd, nor in any future versions of cargodist
17:10<Elukka>alright
17:10<Nat_>that's cool, I could probably re-create it from the origonal if I wanted
17:10<Nat_>it's on the normal list
17:10<Nat_>Skaldi islands or however you spell it
17:11<Nat_>I love how tiny it is.
17:11<Nat_>a nice map where you can connect everything in a few hours.
17:18<@planetmaker>g'night
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17:29<frosch123>night
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17:31<@Terkhen>good night
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17:33<Nat_>what if the government in real life was like in TTD
17:34<Nat_>the best way to lobby is to plant trees
17:37<Nat_>what's a good grf for arctic climate?
17:38<Nat_>i like the tropic refurbishment set
17:43<@Alberth>swedish rails :)
17:49<Nat_>I downloaded the US one
17:49<Nat_>that's a ton of trains,
17:49<Nat_>why would i need this many
17:49<Nat_>:c
17:49<Nat_>it's almost as bad as the plane list
17:49<Nat_>how will i ever make a desision
17:49<@Alberth>that's the main reason I still only play with the default train set :p
17:50<Nat_>Default trains hate tropic and artic
17:50<@Alberth>(and the opengfx+ extensions, but they add very little stuff)
17:50<Nat_>which are the coolest maps
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17:50<@Alberth>how 'hate'?
17:51<Nat_>less trains
17:51<Nat_>no electric
17:51<Nat_>more like neglect
17:51<@Alberth>no electric makes sense, at least in arctic, imho
17:51<@Alberth>wires would freeze :p
17:52<@Alberth>and those mountains need big engines, and electric is not so powerful
17:52<Nat_>if you really want to be uber realistic, dissalow electric trains above the snow line.
17:52<@Alberth>but I am more of a steam/diesel person :p
17:53*Alberth has no desire to be realistic :)
17:53*Nat_ finds uses for both
17:53<Nat_>verriety is cool
17:53<Nat_>but too many options is confusing
17:53<Nat_>especaly when it's all one list
17:53<Nat_>like having a million engines would be fine if I could filter them
17:53<@Alberth>you can sort them
17:54<@Alberth>and only care about the top-few ones
17:55<@Alberth>ok, I am off to bed, good night
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18:49<Sacro>http://kvartirakrasivo.ru/404/index.php
18:49*Sacro dances
18:56<Elukka>erm.
18:56<Elukka>Alberth, Nat_: electric engines are regularly used in cold areas, furthermore they are the most powerful kind of engine
18:57<Hirundo>Electrifying thousands of km of track isn't worth the benefit, though
18:58<Elukka>it's been done in most of europe
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19:11<Elukka>http://cdn.c.photoshelter.com/img-get/I00002d14uDUVkVU/s/850/0065-Sion-Snow-storm-Railway-1995.jpg
19:11<Eddi|zuHause>electrification has mostly to do with population density
19:12<Eddi|zuHause>the longer the track is in relation to usage, the less sense it makes to electrify it
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19:27<Wolf01>'night
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19:56<Nat_>sorry for late reply, but that's how i use it
19:56<Nat_>electrify short streatches
19:56<Nat_>also, Cargodest is AMAZING
19:56<Nat_>it makes passinger trains worthwhile
19:57<Nat_>I am like over capacity
19:57<Nat_>and not sure how to expand.
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20:20<Nat_>stations can't overlap can they?
20:20<Nat_>like you can't build station bridges
20:20<Nat_>or tunnels
20:20<Nat_>because that would be really handy
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20:37<Nat_>is there any plans for subways?
20:39<Eddi|zuHause>lots of plans...
20:39<Eddi|zuHause>no solutions
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20:41<Nat_>so the only viable way to build iner city transit is cheating then
20:41<Nat_>:C
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20:46<Nat_>also, no offense to the one who sugested the sweeden set, it's not very good
20:47<Nat_>I mean if you are a sweedish train nerd it's probably cool, but from a game perspective it leaves a lot of niches unfilled, and puts too much detail into others
20:48<Nat_>it's engines don't seem to do anything specifly well.
20:48<Nat_>and it allways feels like an improvisation
20:48<Nat_>I wish I could remove it without breaking my savegame
20:48<Nat_>if I were to sell all my trains, could I remove the GRF without breaking anything?
20:48<Nat_>and then buy new ones?
20:55<Nat_>answer is yes
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21:19<Eddi|zuHause>answer is depends...
21:23<Nat_>it worked for me
21:24<Nat_>I assume the game would have crashed if I removed the grf with trains in existance
21:25<Eddi|zuHause>probably
21:27<Nat_>man cargodest might be unbalanced
21:28<Nat_>Passinger routes expand exponentially with how many destinations are available, pretty soon you have a billion people waiting in the station
21:28<Nat_>and it just keeps on expanding the more possible destinations there are.
21:29<Nat_>which is all nice and all, but it gets kind of unrealistic when you have more passingers than frieght.
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21:30<Nat_>Hello Hellow
21:30<Hellow>Hello. :P
21:36<Eddi|zuHause>that's why people demand "reduce passengers" patches
21:37<Eddi|zuHause>you can also tweak cargodist to make people prefer shorter routes
21:38<Nat_>Heh, I'd rather see an "Increase cargo" patch :P
21:39<Nat_>Hmm, my food processing plant is accepting grain and livestock BUT is not producing anything :C
21:39<Nat_>what's up?
21:39<Eddi|zuHause>your wagons not refitted to food?
21:39<Eddi|zuHause>no available destinations for food?
21:40<Nat_>no i got food wagons, it's the plant is saying zero tons produced (0% transported)
21:40<Nat_>and there is a destination and train for it
21:40<Nat_>the train would be earning no money but it's sharing with the train that takes grain and stock to the plant
21:41<Nat_>makes it longer than nessary, but it carries cargo both ways in theroy
21:41<Nat_>but in practice no food is being produced
21:41<Nat_>oh that's strange
21:41<Nat_>my oil refinery does that too sometimes
21:41<Nat_>but not always
21:41<Nat_>it says no goods produced
21:42<Nat_>BUT in that case there ARE goods waiting at the station
21:42<Nat_>and getting transported
21:42<Eddi|zuHause>remember that it's the _last_ month's production
21:43<Eddi|zuHause>so if you did not bring anything then, it'll show 0 processed
21:45<Nat_>that should not matter because it's been getting constant supply for almost the whole game
21:45<Nat_>there is no way this station should not be producing goods
21:46<Nat_>it is just a black hole
21:46<Nat_>actualy that might explain what is up with the oil refinery
21:46<Nat_>yes it does
21:46<Nat_>the oil refinery gets supplied less often
21:46<Nat_>because it relys on tankers
21:47<Nat_>at the begining of the month it says zero
21:47<Nat_>but after it gets supplied it says 350
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22:14<Nat_>do roads have upkeep?
22:14<Nat_>because I like to turn off towns building roads so I can place them for them
22:14<Nat_>aka not retardedly
22:14<Nat_>but do I have to pay upkeep on these charity roads?
22:15<Eddi|zuHause>there's a setting for upkeep costs
22:15<Nat_>where?
22:15<Eddi|zuHause>should be called "infrastructure maintenance" or so
22:16<Nat_>hmm that seems to be turned off
22:16<Nat_>good
22:16<Nat_>still not sure where my money is going
22:16<Nat_>maybe my stations are just too big
22:16<Nat_>OR my airports
22:16<Nat_>which right now only carry gold
22:18<Nat_>and a single load at that
22:18<Nat_>which is the best airplane for cargo?
22:29<Nat_>Uh oh!
22:29<Nat_>apparently they don't manufacture trains anymore in 2016
22:29<Nat_>and I can't afford to replace my entire network with Monorails
22:29<Nat_>:C
22:30<Nat_>CHEAT TIME!
22:30<Nat_>or maybe just time to retire.
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22:53<Nat_>how do you make newgrfs?
22:58<Eddi|zuHause>you write them?
22:58<Eddi|zuHause>probably should read the NML tutorial
22:58<Nat_>yeah, is there any tutorial or anything?
22:59*Nat_ sniped
22:59<Nat_>where can I find that turorial?
22:59<Nat_>I used to make a few trains for simutrans, is open TTD the same/similar resolution?
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23:44<Eddi|zuHause>probably not
---Logclosed Sat Jan 21 00:00:54 2012