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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-01-24

---Logopened Tue Jan 24 00:00:34 2012
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03:27<dihedral>good morning
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06:32<chester>hi all, who can explain what is the difference between secondary and tertiary industries? there are no explanations in wiki as for primary
06:33<chester>now tertiary consists of toy shop (accerts only), printing works and factory (accepts and produces)
06:36<andythenorth>chain is primary -> secondary -> tertiary
06:36<andythenorth>so forest -> paper mill -> printing works
06:36<andythenorth>or coal mine -> steel mill -> factory
06:36<andythenorth>primary = produces with no inputs
06:37<andythenorth>secondary = produces from primary delivered cargo
06:37<andythenorth>tertiary = produces from secondary delivered cargo
06:38<chester>ah now i c, first i though that tertiary is accepting non-producing ones
06:38<andythenorth>may or may not produce
06:39<andythenorth>the real world definition of tertiary is something like 'produces services, not products'
06:39<andythenorth>but that is not so relevant here :)
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06:41<chester>im gonna put couple of words to with this
06:41<spongie>Hello. I have problems when playing online, sometimes before i have time to set a password, some anonymous player will join my company, borrow cash and steal all the money. Is there a way to remove a player from the company?
06:42<chester>server admin can
06:43<SpComb>doesn't the game have a default company password now?
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06:45<spongie>dunno. this has happened more than once anyway.
06:46<chester>you should enter the server as spectator, then create a company
06:46<chester>this leave little time to join and steal
06:47<chester>or if you have slow connection he has planty of time to do this
06:48<chester>spectator-create-fast simple password-your password
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07:03<SpComb>as in, I recall seeing some button to set a default password that's used when creating a new company
07:06<chester>back to the future?
07:08<chester>iv found an option in openttd.cfg
07:10<chester>but dont have any button ingame
07:11<@planetmaker>spongie, set a default password for your company. Then you don't have to do that manually
07:11<chester>sponge: check this
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08:57<spongie>planetmaker: good point
08:57<spongie>it's also the second time now when some bored player terraform around my stuff and buy the land to shut my operations down
08:59<spongie>the same guy build railtracks on roads and put a train there for permablock
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11:25<Jupix>diar diary, today I got greenlighted by one senior lecturer to write my bachelor's thesis on the subject of openttd :P
11:26<Jupix>though I'm now gonna have to appear before a think tank of a few other senior lecturers / UAS brass and they can still shoot it down if they so decide
11:27<@blathijs>Jupix: Awesome! Any specific question you'll be looking at?
11:28<Jupix>almost certainly
11:28<Jupix>which one, is not sure yet
11:28<Jupix>but it's almost certainly some aspect of 32bit gfxdev
11:29<Jupix>so either licensing, or project lifecycle, or open-source development as a business case, or something like that..
11:30<@planetmaker>as a business case might be... a bit difficult with OpenTTD as example ;-)
11:30<@blathijs>Jupix: For what Bachelor?
11:30<Jupix>business administration with emphasis on business law
11:31<@planetmaker>wrt licensing "fun" OpenTTD and its extensions on the other hand is a very fruitful test case
11:31<Jupix>planetmaker: I thought about that argument on my way home. it's actually not as crazy as it sounds. we've got most aspects of business life covered, just the profit is missing
11:31<@planetmaker>can you explain?
11:32<__ln__>Jupix: how about "Planting Trees as a Strategy for Gaining Popularity Among the Consumers of the Locally Relevant City Inhabitants"?
11:32<Jupix>we have people who make the machine work, we have something that loosely fits the description of an organization, with its own culture, we've got infrastructure, and we have a product and a core competence
11:33<Jupix>__ln__: :D
11:34<+michi_cc>If you look at it less "business-ish", profit doesn't have to mean money, but can also be intangible things like common good.
11:37<SpComb>profit = common good earned - common evil generated? :)
11:38<Jupix>common evil as in people playing openttd @ work? :D
11:40<@Rubidium>no, evil as in playing it while doing your thesis presentation ;)
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12:22<@planetmaker>Jupix, you still have the wrong real-life scales in the document :-(
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12:29<Jupix>planetmaker: but... I specifically added a reminder that scale changes on an item to item basis
12:30<@planetmaker>"Releases may or may not be immediately accompanied by sources and
12:30<@planetmaker>licensing information." Right. That's absolutely incompatible with GPL. Release and provide source. Or violate license
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12:30<@Rubidium>planetmaker: not really
12:30<@Rubidium>you can release without the source
12:31<@Rubidium>you just need to send the source code when someone asks for it
12:31<@planetmaker>yeah. But not without licensing information, Rubidium
12:31<@Rubidium>well, if it has no license then you basically can't use it
12:32<@planetmaker>Jupix, and it misses IMHO the only really important point: making clear there's one license and only one license which the project works with
12:32<@planetmaker>it talks again about this and that and compatible and so on.
12:32<Jupix>note the difference between the 32bit project and the base set replacement project
12:32<@planetmaker>I didn't
12:33<Jupix>the former includes newgrf's etc which I can't tell everyone to start licensing under GPL
12:33<Jupix>the latter is GPL or compatible only and requires sources as a mandate
12:33<Jupix>which p.15 is pretty clear about, correct?
12:36<@planetmaker>what's that talk then about which I quoted?
12:36<Jupix>incidentally p.15 is where the part you're most interested in begins. content before that is something i suggest for everything including 32bpp newgrfs
12:36<Jupix>all 32bit graphics, including stuff like the spainset, etc...
12:37<Jupix>the GPL stuff, the "opengfx 32bit" for lack of a better word is from p.15 onwards
12:37<Jupix>it's only a subset of the whole
12:37<@planetmaker>I guess this distinction should be made absolutely clear. And IMHO NewGRFs can be left out completely. Probably should
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12:38<Jupix>I'd like to keep it in there for consistency and clarity mainly
12:38<@planetmaker>it can be easily missed, especially through the lengthy definition of terms and words which rival about the documents I receive from space administrations
12:39<Jupix>how about paragraph 1 of chapter 5?
12:39<Jupix>does it leave room for confusion?
12:39<@planetmaker>it talks about undefined things
12:40<Jupix>such as?
12:40<@planetmaker>Naming of zoom levels. I'd call the zoom levels by what they really are: 1x 2x and 4x
12:40<@planetmaker>where 1x is TTD default
12:41<@planetmaker>oh, you mean the one preceeding chapter 5.1?
12:42<@planetmaker>Well. IMHO there's little point to talk about NewGRFs
12:43<Jupix>I just kinda disagree I guess ;) I'd like stuff like the spainset to go as much by the same visual and release standards as possible .. although I obviously can't force those into the mould
12:43<@planetmaker>it adds nothing to the point. It distracts from the project's purpose.
12:43<@planetmaker>I don't say it's not good. But NewGRFs can do what they want anyway. They're well advised to follow the base set.
12:44<@planetmaker>But including them in these specs is a digression which dilutes the contents and purpose of the paper as a whole
12:44<Jupix>I understand
12:44<Jupix>I don't agree completely but I do understand . I'm thinking right now ...
12:47<Jupix>I am kinda heavily leaning towards keeping it as-is, because there are heavy arguments towards making it so, such as getting all that stuff released using the same delivery method ... the issue of clarity as far as making that policy overwhelm the reader is a problem that can be fixed at the wiki phase I believe ... it might not be worth another rewrite of the spec to just reorder it or break it down into base set rules and general a
12:47<Jupix>do you agree this is something that could be worked when the stuff is on wiki ?
12:48<Jupix>after all there are few rules that are imposed on newgrfs per se...
12:50<@planetmaker>I think it's bad style to pose for "public vote" (by whom) a summary package which even we two barely can overview as a whole
12:50<@planetmaker>you'll get the answers. They'll be all "fine, let's go". But... to what avail?
12:50<@planetmaker>They'll be given without sound knowledge of the implications bare the technical aspects and limitations
12:51<@planetmaker>Thus especially for this reason I'd advocate to break it down to easily digestible units which can individually be discussed than broad summary things to "vote on"
12:52<@planetmaker>But it's your thing. I mentioned also previously the issue with the scales. Obviously to no avail. Thus... I don't feel like lengthy arguing tbh.
12:52<@Belugas>strange... just realized that VOTE and VETO are anagrams...
12:53<@planetmaker>IMHO the whole thing to "put in stone" is a tad early.
12:53<@planetmaker>I'd suggest a few graphics guide lines for the objects and sprites.
12:53<Jupix>this layout of the spec has been viewable and commentable since march 2010, and no one complained about it but you, planetmaker, not even youself until now that we're into its 7th revision :P
12:53<@planetmaker>I'd skip the technical part on zoom levels as that's so far undefined
12:54<@planetmaker>Jupix, considered the the possibility of "no need for specs beyond 'graphics are to be in ttd style'"?
12:54<Jupix>and I did "fix" the issue you had with the scale bit, but obviously not to your satisfaction, which you also didn't write down in the thread I posted in the 32bit forum
12:55<Jupix>well, I think the spec speaks pretty fine for why there is need for such a thing
12:55<@planetmaker>Bad luck then that I didn't find the "right" thread?
12:55<Jupix>you posted in it!
12:56<@planetmaker>I'm sure I mentioned the graphics scale more than once. But well.
12:56<@planetmaker>Take the input as you get it. Do with it what you like
12:57<Jupix>you mentioned nothing about the scale fix not being to your satisfaction
12:57<@planetmaker>so do I always have to repeat myself?
12:57<@planetmaker>as you obviously even remember?
12:58<Jupix>is it repetition, if the information was not posted in the first place?
12:58<@planetmaker>anyway. This discussion of who said what when where is fruitless and besides every point
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13:00<Jupix>well, like I said, this has been planned and available for about 2 years now. I think we're past "what's the point"
13:00<Jupix>I just had to post it, since I thought it was done and fixed, and no one commented further
13:00<@planetmaker> <-- just to help your memory. I told you. Quote from our communication
13:01<Jupix>would you like me to paste the revision before that communication, and the revised version?
13:02<@planetmaker>no need. The graphics scale is given at least in the one we see now.
13:02<@planetmaker>which is the point I talked about ;-)
13:03<Jupix>are you blind to the bolded bit below it?
13:03<@planetmaker>so you make graphs which give a scale and in the text you deny the scale given in the graphs? Sounds... not good. People read images
13:03<@planetmaker>That's what sticks
13:05<Jupix>uh, well yes, that paper is written with the assumption that a man interested in issue X will read the bit concerning it in its entirety, including text
13:06<Jupix>since it's pretty low on useless words anyway
13:06<Jupix>if you just glance through half of it, sure you'll probably be confused
13:06<Jupix>I think that goes for any spec
13:06<@planetmaker>The first thing under "7.5 Scale" is "In z0, one square equals 12.5 x 12.5 meters, and 512 x 512 pixels"
13:06<@planetmaker>It's highlighted by being separated from the text
13:07<@planetmaker>The big image below, gives exactly that again
13:08<Jupix>the bolded bit overrules that for airplanes and ships etc
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13:08<Jupix>it's just putting into words what should be obvious to an artist
13:08<@planetmaker>And the text then says "can be scaled down to a size that makes sense in the context". Then the whole scale makes no sense. Thus the specs are highly ambiguous.
13:09<@planetmaker>And the main impression which it gives is "use this exact scale unless absolutely not possible"
13:09<Jupix>scale *has* to be ambiguous by the very definition of our game engine, right?
13:09<@planetmaker>exactly. And that's why it should just be removed from there. Especially any figures which relate pixels to metres
13:09<@planetmaker>It's nothing which a set should even try to rectify
13:10<Jupix>why remove it when it is a useful guideline?
13:10<@planetmaker>Just remove the first paragraph and both images from that subchapter and then it will befine
13:10<@planetmaker>it's not a useful guide.
13:10<@planetmaker>It's a misguidance
13:10<@planetmaker>for exactly the reason: it does not apply.
13:11<@planetmaker>It doesn't apply for a train
13:11<@planetmaker>It doesn't apply for a building
13:11<@planetmaker>It doesn't apply for an industry
13:11<@planetmaker>it doesn't apply for a tree
13:12<@planetmaker>The simple words "use the same proportions and scalings as found in the existing base sets" is much much clearer and much much less ambiguous
13:13<Rhamphoryncus>Pity that conditional load orders for the current station don't equate to "load to this amount"
13:13<Jupix>planetmaker: your above 6 lines or so are the first ones with some real information :D
13:13<Jupix>it changes a lot
13:14<@planetmaker>That's what I said before: it applies to _no_ _single_ game item. Except maybe road vehicles
13:14<Jupix>because until now that scale was factual to me for trains, trees, rv's, etc, because it was conceived by someone who'd done it all, meaning Ben R.
13:14<@planetmaker>But even there the height is wrong
13:15<@planetmaker>as a bus is also just one height level. And they're much higher than 2m
13:15<@planetmaker>and a bus is longer than 6m
13:15<@planetmaker>thus a normal cab is then at the right scale. Maybe
13:15<Eddi|zuHause>[24.01.2012 17:28] <Jupix> but it's almost certainly some aspect of 32bit gfxdev <-- you mean "what causes such an interesting project to be an utter failure"?
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13:16<Jupix>not that no
13:16<Jupix>it's not an utter failure either :D
13:17<Eddi|zuHause>imho it is...
13:17<Jupix>it's funny you should even make such a claim :D
13:17<Jupix>shows some true ignorance in its purest form
13:17<Eddi|zuHause>just barely above the BROS set
13:18<Eddi|zuHause>Jupix: if you look besides the awesome graphics, exactly _nothing_ of value has been produced
13:18<Jupix>that's a lie
13:18<Jupix>and since the product of the project is awesome graphics, I don't get why you would "look besides" those
13:20<@planetmaker>well, "nice graphics" is somewhat the point of the project, not, Eddi|zuHause ?
13:20<Eddi|zuHause>no, a "product" is something that is practically usable. i.e. in 32bpp-context a download that can be put into the game
13:20<Jupix>what part of that does not exist, right now?
13:22<Jupix>also, do you think it moves the project along to diss it in public with lies, like this?
13:22<Jupix>and why would you want it to *not* have the best probability of sucess?
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13:28*planetmaker is off to sports
13:28<Jupix>have fun
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13:31<@Rubidium>Jupix: there is at least a lack of recent "32bpp-ez sprite" supporting binaries
13:31<Jupix>true :(
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13:32<Jupix>that problem might be solved with ez sprite loading in trunk ;)
13:33<@Rubidium>the problem is that the sprite loading is very slow at the moment
13:33<@Rubidium>at least for the 32bpp that has to look for multiple files, etc
13:33<@Rubidium>especially in the way that currently happens
13:34<Jupix>got any suggestions how to fix that?
13:34<Eddi|zuHause>Jupix: another aspect is the amount of "work" already done compared to e.g. the 8bpp replacement (opengfx)
13:35<Jupix>Eddi|zuHause: the amount of "work" done in 32 bits right now is *vast*
13:35<Eddi|zuHause>Jupix: not in comparison with the amount of "work" that needs to be done
13:35<@Rubidium>Jupix: there is an idea that puts in just in the GRF
13:35<+michi_cc>Jupix: GRF container version 2 which will store all sprites (32bpp and/or more zoom levels) directly inside the GRF file.
13:36<Jupix>Eddi|zuHause: your solution to that is to undermine what's been done already?
13:36<@Rubidium>Jupix: agreed, the amount of work done for 32 bits graphics is vast, however... not all are consistent and many if not all think that 32bpp graphics entails things that are outside of the scope of changing the number of colours per pixel
13:37<@Rubidium>like shadows on/over other tiles, grass over other tiles, longer vehicles, curved corners, ...
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13:37<Jupix>the consistency I'm trying to improve as best as in my almost non-existent power
13:37<mib_mf7f6w>watch splitfirelive gamestream(playing league of legends) - Support by just watching !
13:37<mib_mf7f6w>watch splitfirelive gamestream(playing league of legends) - Support by just watching !
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13:38<Jupix>the "artists's wet dreams" as I like to call the rest of what you wrote are something that is not holding the sprite conversion progress back, I think
13:39<@Rubidium>no, but many sprites are drawn using those assumptions
13:39<+michi_cc>Jupix: A lot of the sprites aren't usable IMNSHO. Either because of things that stick out to the sides (grass, shadows etc), because of inconsistencies between similar sprites, overreliance on the ez-patch recolour algorithm or because they are plain ugly (sorry, but I think those squashed rail vehicles do not look good).
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13:42<Jupix>Rubidium: that is a problem of the artist in question, IMO... most of them know better and if they do it still, should be aware that they can't be used if they bug out in the unpatched binary
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13:43<Jupix>michi_cc: bugs are bugs. opinions as far as appearance are opinions.
13:43<andythenorth>why not skip 32bpp and implement 3d?
13:43<Jupix>you should be careful what you judge "unusable", methinks...
13:44-!-mode/#openttd [+o glx] by DorpsGek
13:44-!-mode/#openttd [+b mib_*!*@*] by glx
13:44-!-mode/#openttd [-o glx] by DorpsGek
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r23846 /trunk/src/lang/ (belarusian.txt finnish.txt french.txt):
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: belarusian - 3 changes by KorneySan
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: finnish - 3 changes by jpx_
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: french - 22 changes by OliTTD
13:45<Jupix>I find it interesting that you (all) have these opinions and think this and that are wrong, should be improved, won't do, are utter fail, or embarassing. yet I don't remember any of you posting any of it in the forums recently ... why is this? if you did post, and no one bothered to work a fix, why do you think that is?
13:46<Jupix>it's kinda sad that the only one really vocally interested in the code side of 32bits is geektoo, it would appear
13:47<@Rubidium>well, TrueBrain was some years ago. He then implemented 32bpp and nobody used it
13:48<@Rubidium>having said that, I have posted long ago... but comments got ignored because "the code must be changed so the graphics work the way I draw them"
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13:48<@Rubidium>e.g. the trains being drawn too long
13:48<@Rubidium>and after a while you simply don't really care anymore
13:49<Jupix>do you believe, were you to implement the functionality in geektoo's patch in trunk right now, and make it easier for the player to play in 32bpp, no one would use it?
13:49<Jupix>as for those artist opinions. I
13:50<@Rubidium>the problem is not having the people wanting to use 32bpp graphics
13:50<Jupix>I feel sad for the discussion that was apparently lost. you could've set them straight
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13:51<@Rubidium>the problem is more with there being a "desync" in the perception of the changes that are going to be done to the code between the artists and the (trunk) developers
13:52<Jupix>I'd be glad to fix that if you could throw me a pm and detail that desync in a bit more detail
13:52<Jupix>it's clearly an information issue
13:53<Jupix>perhaps on both sides because for the current actives I don't think anyone expects the devs to implement anything besides ez sprite loading and ingame change of blitter
13:54<@Rubidium>AllTaken has drawn beautiful switches and bridges, but they're "useless" because the code doesn't work that way, and we want to keep the TTD style. Not create a complete new game with a few hints of the TTD economy
13:55<Jupix>he hasn't been drawing as long as I've been around, and I've been around since 2008 or something...
13:55<@Rubidium>well, no need for a pm. The desync is simply that the developers think: replace sprites and possibly improve the recolouring a bit, *all* other stuff is not what 32bpp is about. For the artists all the other stuff is what 32bpp is about, not the actual sprite replacement
13:57<Jupix>yep ... I recall seeing that file at least 3, probably closer to 5 years ago
13:57<Jupix>no one expects that to be implemented today, tomorrow or 2 years from now, no one also draws stuff that wild
13:57<@Rubidium> <- that could actually be coded with a newgrf airport (once that code is complete)
13:58<@Rubidium>Jupix: but those drawings were from 2005. Ever since the artists started with 32bpp graphics that was their idea
13:58<@Rubidium>(the curved tracks and such)
13:59<Jupix>an idea of a couple artists, not the project!
13:59<@Rubidium>but that artist *was* the project
13:59<Jupix>no more
13:59<@Alberth>so, how many sprites exist today that work in trunk?
14:00<@Rubidium>true, but all those graphics and history is what people see scrolling through the threads. They expect that and start drawing like that. The bits of comment that the few developers give are text and are more easily missed than stunning looking graphics
14:02<Jupix>Rubidium: 1. I think the basic premise of that argument is untrue. everywhere we say we are implementing openttd in 32 bits, not all the curved tracks jazz, not yet. and 2. you need to be more vocal as devs and really set the record straight, if you think people in there are wrong
14:02<Jupix>you can't just disappear out of conversations and think you've made your point
14:03<@Alberth>Jupix: that would be a full time job, as 32bpp is not the only sub-project
14:03<@Alberth>if the project owner does not care, why should we ?
14:03<Jupix>who is the project owner?
14:04<@Rubidium>Jupix: but after months telling your bank that you moved house and they still haven't fixed their administration you just go to another bank, right?
14:04<@Rubidium>at least I do
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14:05<Jupix>Rubidium: I honestly don't understand
14:05<@Alberth>telling the same thing over and over again without getting your point across tends to be very frustrating
14:05<@Alberth>so after a while you stop doing that
14:06*andythenorth proposes deleting the 32bpp forums
14:06<andythenorth>might help
14:06<andythenorth>it's pure tumbleweed afaict
14:06<@Rubidium>you can keep telling people over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over that something is wrong, but eventually you reach a moment where it is "too much" and you just "zone" out
14:06<@Alberth>andythenorth: nah, they will just create a new one, probably all over the place :)
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14:07<andythenorth>Alberth: maybe it's done right this time though?
14:07<andythenorth>and maybe we have less 'they'? :)
14:07<andythenorth>as long as it's 'they' not 'we' it's not happening
14:07<@Alberth>looking at recent "help I don't get 32bpp running" spam I am not too optimistic :p
14:08<andythenorth>personally I don't give 2 craps about 32bpp
14:08<andythenorth> but if support is needed for improving the process it might be worth providing
14:08<Jupix>Rubidium: this is so unbelievably frustrating to me because I'm trying to prevent that exact kind of information blackout
14:08<Jupix>Alberth: sadly that is an issue with something altogether than standardizing sprites
14:09<Jupix>altogether different*
14:10<@Alberth>yep, it's a different issue. But it adds to the confusion
14:10<Jupix>the 32bit game is difficult to set up. that's why there is that spam. I've tried to do my best to write guides and tutorials and encourage others to do the same, but in the end there's only so much you can do before it stops being an information problem and starts being a technical implementation problem that we don't have the person to correct
14:10<@Rubidium>andythenorth: without a 32bpp blitter you probably wouldn't even have OpenTTD on your computer
14:13<Jupix>there are problems with the graphics creation bit, sure. but there are also problems that are not within the 32bit contributors power to fix, such as the whole thing being so difficult to set up from scratch, and the devs abandoning it as a project (you don't need to convince me that it was for a good reason at some point, I get it)
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14:14<Jupix>I think it's difficult to justify anyone crisizing me or the project for the latter part
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14:15<Jupix>also, the "they" and "us" issue. that really saddens me. are we really such outcasts?
14:15<Rhamphoryncus>Jupix: If there is any project owner or leader it's not something I, as an outsider, can see
14:15<Rhamphoryncus>Which is a common problem for open source games
14:15<Jupix>yep. that's the point. there is none
14:15<Jupix>no developer has taken it as his pet
14:16<Jupix>there's also been no competent contributor who could've made it to developerness
14:16<Jupix>which is sad
14:16<Rhamphoryncus>I have the time and the skill to do major patches. I have itches to scratch. But I don't bother because I can't expect my patches to be applied (or seriously discussed, preferably before I put the effort it.)
14:16<@Alberth>Jupix: why do you need a developer?
14:16<@Alberth>can you not make normal zoom 32bpp?
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14:17<@Alberth>evenink frosch123
14:17<@Rubidium>Jupix: it's a massive chicken-egg problem
14:18<@Rubidium>it's the same thing opengfx had to conquer
14:18<Jupix>Alberth: we can make normal zoom 32bits, of course we can. what devs are needed for is twofold: 1. to solve the programminng issues and make the end-user experience as good as it can be, and 2. to serve as a motivation, to show that the thing has support
14:19<frosch123>moin albert :)
14:19<@Rubidium>they started to work and had a way of showing the sprites. Once it started to get over a critical point it became interesting for the developers to invest some time in making it loaded easily
14:19<@Rubidium>then once it was loaded easily opengfx got a spurt completing the rest of the sprites
14:20<Jupix>would you not say we are moving in the same direction?
14:20<Jupix>we may not be there yet ... but we're moving
14:21<Jupix>the only thing I can do my best for is to get "our" act together as best I can, and hope we make enough progress that the technical side will get love as well
14:21<@Rubidium>but you don't really have an artist "in the lead", i.e. doing a lot of work pulling other into it
14:22<Jupix>I know. that's very sad
14:22<Rhamphoryncus>Something like getsatisfaction (but free) could be very effective for proposing ideas, if the head developer put enough regular effort it to discuss and approve ideas
14:23<@Alberth>Jupix: programming issues for trunk?
14:23<Jupix>Ben R. used to be a huge force behind 32 bits but he's currently on an overseas assignment @ work. yes, we don't have a powerhouse like Zephyris at opengfx. I'm hoping someone like him will turn up at 32 bits. perhaps even he, himself since he did his work in 32 bits I think, and then converted to 8 bits
14:24<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23847 /trunk/src/road_cmd.cpp: -Fix: when removing road or tram from a tram+road stop, the owner of the road stop's cache was updated instead of the owner of the removed infrastructure
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14:24<andythenorth>the chicken egg problem would be solved if someone like me started making 32bpp (EZ?) sets
14:24<Jupix>Alberth: programmning issues *out of* trunk would be preferable ;)
14:24<Jupix>andythenorth: it would help
14:25<Jupix>it wouldn't guarantee instant success
14:25<@Alberth>Jupix: usually waiting for someone to come along is a bad strategy; people will only come/contribute when there something is happening/existing
14:25<Jupix>I've already stated today that as it stands there *is* something happening and existing within 32 bits
14:25<@Rubidium>Rhamphoryncus: ideas are easy to propose. However, finding the right way to implement that idea is something totally different. The idea of path signals is very simple, yet it required several attempts before having something workable
14:26<@Rubidium>so even when the idea is approved, it doesn't mean that a particuar implementation of that idea is going to get approved
14:26<Jupix>Alberth: also - what do you suggest? I go and hire someone?
14:26<Jupix>or someone else does so?
14:27<Jupix>or perhaps you suggest we should, as a community of artists, admit defeat and abandon the project?
14:27<@Alberth>Just start yourself is my usual answer, but I don't know if you did that already
14:28<Rhamphoryncus>Rubidium: yup. What I was thinking is a particular implementation could be approved for experimentation, meaning it's worth implementing, then it can be further evaluated when done
14:30<Jupix>Alberth: sadly, my talents are not in making graphics. if they were you can be damn sure I would be drawing. I've done something else to the best of my ability. in fact I think I've done a lot considering I'm at the same level as any other player
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14:30<@Rubidium>Rhamphoryncus: but then you've implemented it already, right? Problem is that you're only discovering many of the preconditions while doing the actual implementation which requires changing the implementation
14:30<@Rubidium>many things that are currently in trunk have gone through multiple iterations. Either in trunk, or before they got implemented
14:30<Rhamphoryncus>Rubidium: there's a lot that can be planned before attempting the real work
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14:31<@Rubidium>e.g. noai is the third (or maybe even fourth) generation AI solution
14:31<Rhamphoryncus>Such as scheduling. I've come up with a decent way to do it, but I don't want to deal with GUI or saving issues if it's not gonna be used
14:32<Rhamphoryncus>Yeah, but with AI it's clear you WANT a better AI. The general idea is accepted
14:33<@Rubidium>we want better scheduling
14:33<@Rubidium>general idea is approved ;)
14:34<andythenorth>Jupix: without a pikka or a michael blunck or a purno or a danmack or a sanchimaru or a snail or a zephyris etc, it's not going anywhere
14:34<andythenorth>is my bet
14:35<andythenorth>projects need at least one person who contributes in excess to the others
14:35<Rhamphoryncus>Yeah, so the current system is I have to learn who has commit rights and can accept major patches, then ask them directly if it's worth doing.
14:36<andythenorth>'community' projects universally fail in my experience
14:36<Jupix>andythenorth: I can only try and make it so that that person finds it compelling to start drawing
14:36<andythenorth>projects with communities tend to succeed
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14:36<andythenorth>Jupix: +1
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14:37<andythenorth>32bpp is beset with issues
14:37<andythenorth>such as - what is it?
14:37*andythenorth doesn't understand it
14:37<Jupix>read the paper
14:39<Rhamphoryncus>There's.. a paper? I wouldn't expect have expected that much design to be necessary just to bump the colour depth
14:40*andythenorth reads
14:40<Jupix>there may exist an issue with bad karma or something at this point. so no matter how well I document stuff, no matter how many sprites get drawn or how easy it is to set the game up, some people just won't care because once in the past there were problems that were important to that particular person
14:40<andythenorth>the paper is fine
14:40<andythenorth>what is 32bpp though?
14:40<andythenorth>it's confusing
14:40<andythenorth>it's cgi graphics?
14:40<andythenorth>is my understanding
14:41<andythenorth>and bigger
14:41<Jupix>it's an ecosystem of sprite drawing in lotsa colors and rez, for openttd
14:41<andythenorth>with cgi?
14:41<andythenorth>i.e rendered
14:41<andythenorth>not drawn
14:41<andythenorth>and bigger?
14:41<Jupix>as in pixels?
14:41<andythenorth>not 64px tiles
14:41<andythenorth>(for buildings etc)
14:41<@Alberth>Jupix: the only good reason to do something is because you want to do something. Not because you are any good at it
14:42<Jupix>andythenorth: the aim is to support all of it
14:42<@Belugas>wise man, Alberth :)
14:42*andythenorth mostly applies that rule
14:42<@Alberth>Belugas: I am good at make-believe :p
14:42<andythenorth>but being good makes winning easier
14:42<@Belugas>lol :D
14:42*andythenorth likes winning best
14:43<Jupix>Alberth: I don't get on my two feet and jump out into space. even if I want to. because I know I can't. more to the point, if I were to start out in artistry, I know I would fail, because I don't have the eye for it
14:43<andythenorth>Jupix: so what's the overarching goal of 32bpp?
14:43<andythenorth>and if it's cgi, why not use free models?
14:43<@Rubidium>andythenorth: whom's goal? ;)
14:44<andythenorth>it seems the project is trvial, just find free models and render them?
14:44<Jupix>there are many goals
14:44<andythenorth>Rubidium: Jupix's goal
14:44<Jupix>some more distant than others
14:44<@Alberth>that is many - 1 too many
14:44<andythenorth>pick one
14:44<andythenorth>or primary, secondary, tertiary
14:45<Jupix>oh, my personal goal, my vision, is to have the game installer ask if the player wants our set to be installed, and if he so chooses, it gets done, and works outta box
14:45<@Alberth>Jupix: you cannot define 3d models? it's just a bunch of coordinates. Note that I did not say you have to be any good
14:45<andythenorth>and it looks like?
14:46<Jupix>andythenorth: huh?
14:46<andythenorth>i.e. style
14:46<andythenorth>is it rendered?
14:46<andythenorth>is it bigger?
14:46<Jupix>Alberth: I don't think I have to debate what constitutes art with you :p
14:46<andythenorth>does it have consistent palette
14:46<andythenorth>does it have consistent style for models?
14:47<andythenorth>for example, if you replaced toyland with lego-style stuff, you would have:
14:47<andythenorth>- consistent style
14:47<andythenorth>- consistent dimensions and shapes for models
14:47<andythenorth>- consistent palette (limit it)
14:47<andythenorth>which would become achievable
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14:48<Jupix>why ask me all these things when they are, in essence, answered in the 24-or-so page long paper you claim you read in 1 minute?
14:48<andythenorth>fair point
14:49<Jupix>also, did Zephyris etc. who started work on opengfx, know exactly how it turned out before they started work on it?
14:49<@Terkhen>andy likes to ask questions :P
14:50<andythenorth>Jupix: zephyris might be your best bet incidentally
14:50<andythenorth>he's prolific and likes cgi
14:50<andythenorth>but he's busy :(
14:50<andythenorth>with life
14:50<Jupix>I know
14:50<Jupix>it's been suggested
14:50<Jupix>haven't bothered him with it so far
14:51<andythenorth>the paper looks fine to me
14:52<andythenorth>if it was me trying to do this....
14:52<andythenorth>I would
14:52<andythenorth>- get a project on the openttdcoop devzone
14:52<andythenorth>- convert the pdf to html
14:52<andythenorth>- start learning blender
14:52<andythenorth>- make whatever I could
14:52<andythenorth>- bug the devs to make 32bpp unconfusing
14:52<andythenorth>(it confuses me)
14:52<andythenorth>sometimes devs do the right thing
14:53<andythenorth>and sometimes they are blind to VERY IMPORTANT ISSUES
14:53<andythenorth>like newgrf control of smoke for ships :
14:53<andythenorth>to name an example
14:53<Rhamphoryncus>Art and coding should be separate projects. Coding only requires placeholder graphics so you know it works.
14:53<andythenorth>that's a nice theory
14:54<andythenorth>I've tried it both sides
14:54<andythenorth>art | code separate works
14:54<andythenorth>art + code works
14:54<andythenorth>art + code produces a more cohesive result
14:55<andythenorth>but bizarrely, I think you get *more* reworking that way
14:55*Rhamphoryncus nods
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14:55<andythenorth>Jupix: looks to me like you're doing nearly everything right, apart from use of pdf etc which are minor
14:56<andythenorth>your unsolvable is lack of artist(s)
14:56<andythenorth>you have to pay, persuade, get lucky, or do it yourself
14:56<Jupix>get over the pdf, it says in the thread it was released in and I think in the pdf itself that if people find it fine it goes on the wiki
14:57<Jupix>other than that, you're of course right
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14:58<Jupix>I'm hoping to achieve the center 2
14:58<andythenorth>oh god
14:58<andythenorth>FIRS is nearly 3
14:58<Jogio>good evening
14:58<andythenorth>Jan 27th 2009
14:58<andythenorth>when will the fricking thing be done? :P
15:00<@Alberth>the main project owner is somewhat reluctant to declare the project finished perhaps? :p
15:01<andythenorth>the main project owner is ducking some issues
15:01<andythenorth>Jupix: FWIW, I had no idea about hex when I started coding newgrfs
15:01<andythenorth>and people here will confirm I have no eye for code :P
15:04<Jupix>you probably wouldn't believe how much time and energy I sink into the stuff I already do as far as administration. I'm not saying learning blender and how to model good-looking graphics would be too time-consuming, I'm saying, currently for me it would be simply impossible, given the time constraint of 24 hours per day
15:04<andythenorth>Jupix: do you have any children?
15:04<Jupix>thank god no, otherwise I wouldn't probably even be contributing :D
15:05<Jupix>minutes and hours are also only a part of it. defending the thing like this takes an emotional toll. it's funny how much drama an open-source project can generate. it's worse than relationships
15:05<andythenorth>I don't think you're defending here
15:05<andythenorth>I think you're advocating
15:05*andythenorth stumbles across this
15:05<Jupix>when devs and artists don't see eye to eye and I have to stand in the middle, I kinda get the worst of both parties, and none of the good stuff. except in the end if there is a product
15:05<andythenorth>which is better than the sucky cargo piles I drew in CHIPS
15:06<andythenorth>Jupix: that debate is easy
15:06<andythenorth>artists don't have commit rights
15:06<andythenorth>and as a group, they have a lousy track record getting anything done
15:06<andythenorth>the power relation is quite simple
15:06<Jupix>the power relation is pretty difficult when the ones in power abandon and deny power :)
15:07<Rhamphoryncus>With great power comes..
15:07<andythenorth>I don't see them opening the repo or telling you to fork the project ;)
15:07<@Alberth>well, we cannot stop you from forking the project :p
15:07<Jupix>well, fortunately, I haven't been kicked out like that. I guess I've done something right then
15:07<andythenorth>you're just getting their usual level of meh :P
15:08<andythenorth>they don't even bother replying to most of my stuff now
15:08<andythenorth>so you at least get attention ;)
15:08<Jupix>oh, I love attention
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15:08<@Alberth>andythenorth: animated stockpiles?
15:09<andythenorth>well CHIPS shows varying cargo according to amount waiting
15:09<Jupix>anyway.. forking is out of the question. we've always been a community within a community, and I'm sad if I have to think of it as "them" instead of "us"
15:09<Jupix>it just wouldn't be the same
15:09<@Alberth>I also believe forking is not useful
15:10<andythenorth>it wouldn't work
15:10<Jupix>more than not useful I think it would be desctructive in more ways than one
15:10<andythenorth>there's no-one popped up who could maintain a fork for starters
15:10<andythenorth>it's immaterial - I only mentioned it because no-one has said 'why don't you fork?'
15:10<@Alberth>a true fork moves in a different direction, otherwise you just have a patchpack
15:11<andythenorth>which is another way of saying 'go away'
15:12<Jupix>ultimately, 99% of people doing 32bpp stuff wants what's best for openttd
15:12<Jupix>that's why no one's even suggested it
15:12<Jupix>within that subcommunity
15:12<frosch123>Jupix: did anyone ever measure the original 8bpp graphics for dimensions?
15:12<Jupix>dimensions as in...?
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15:13<@Alberth>pixels would be my guess
15:13<frosch123>all 32bpp specs up to now always claimed those 12.5 meters per tile. independent how big that number is, i doubt ottd graphics are equally scaled in all directions
15:14<Jupix>well, we kinda had that discussion earlier
15:14<Jupix>that part of the spec comes almost verbatim from Ben R.
15:14<frosch123>i think in ottd all stuff is lower in height than in the horizontal directions
15:14<Jupix>he did a lot of research when he drew big sets of 32bpp stuff
15:14<frosch123>also, i see a lot of shadows in the images
15:15<frosch123>shadows are very problematic for the graphics engine which ottd has and will likely keep forever
15:15<andythenorth>unless you implement 3d :P
15:15<frosch123>so, a higher sun with as few shadow as possible would be more healthy
15:15<Jupix>hard to comment for me as I'm not a tech guy
15:16<Jupix>parts like that were Ben's and Eric's specialty
15:16<Jupix>now they're both away
15:16<Jupix>I have to make do with what info I have
15:16<andythenorth>just move the light higher in the rig
15:16<andythenorth>shadows need to stay within the tile boundary
15:16<andythenorth>does 32bpp support variable alpha?
15:17<frosch123>andythenorth: yes
15:17<andythenorth>isn't that a performance suck?
15:17<Rhamphoryncus>Rubidium: I assume I should allow my stuff and the old timetabling to coexist?
15:17<frosch123>andythenorth: yes, if there is much transparency
15:17<andythenorth>thought so
15:18<frosch123>32bpp is a lot slower if you enable transparency
15:18*andythenorth is unconvinced by shadows
15:18<Jupix>andythenorth: I'd prefer you make a thread about that change in the 32bit forum and then we implement the change in the spec together after a concensus is reached
15:18<frosch123>(transparency is drawn using alpha in 32bpp)
15:18<andythenorth>fuck consensus :P
15:18<andythenorth>just dictate
15:18<Mazur>andythenorth, never seen Babylon 5?
15:18<Jupix>andythenorth: sadly, I'm not in a position to dictate :)
15:18<andythenorth>rendered on an amiga
15:18<andythenorth>by dick van dyke's company iirc
15:18<andythenorth>how odd
15:19<andythenorth>Jupix: why not?
15:19<andythenorth>no minions?
15:19*andythenorth would suggest using advanced varaction 2 with the shadows as a separate layer
15:19<andythenorth>if done carefuly, it's fiddly but viable
15:20<andythenorth>then it's a global switch to turn them on and off
15:20<andythenorth>or does 33bpp just replace 8bpp sprites direcly?
15:20<andythenorth>or what?
15:20<andythenorth>I'm always baffled when it's discussed
15:20<andythenorth>people are making 32bpp newgrfs right?
15:21<Jupix>andythenorth: in a community-driven project I think rules like that have to gain respect by concensus if they're not already de facto. who's gonna respect a decision I make and document arbitrarily? it needs to be looked at and decided it's the best way, graphically and technically. only then will artists respect it, I think
15:21<andythenorth>that's why community projects suck
15:21<andythenorth>and they all fail
15:22<andythenorth>maybe 2CC set didn't
15:22<Jupix>I think there are examples to the contrary :)
15:23<andythenorth>the only one I know of is 2CC set :)
15:23<Jupix>32bit graphics tars replace sprites, yes
15:23<andythenorth>if you'd started making sprites 2 years ago, you'd be ~25% done?
15:23<andythenorth>instead of 0% done :)
15:23<andythenorth>then you'd be the clear project lead and everyone would have to listen to you, or replace you by being better :P
15:24<Jupix>anyone can replace my right now by being better
15:24<Jupix>also, why would I want to be clear project lead? I don't have the time or the expertise
15:24<andythenorth>still 0% done though?
15:24<Jupix>well, 0% is an outright lie
15:25<andythenorth>what's shipped?
15:25<Jupix>the same amount what would've been shipped at 25% = no finished product
15:25<Jupix>your argument sounds like you will only be satisfied by 100%
15:25<Jupix>which is pretty difficult to defend against
15:25<Elukka>i'm not sure what you're doing but the best thing is probably to get some of it done
15:26<Elukka>everyone has ideas, a small fraction has stuff in game
15:26<@Alberth>and worse, people change direction constantly, it seems
15:26<andythenorth>Jupix: it is very irresponsible of me to keep asking you questions
15:26<andythenorth>it stops you learning blender :)
15:27<Jupix>tried it once. almost ripped my hair out :)
15:27<Jupix>also tried google sketchup which I believe zephyris used to some extent. didn't get past an empty slate
15:27<andythenorth>I can't help further then
15:27<andythenorth>good luck
15:28<andythenorth>I would ask orudge to archive the 32bpp forums though, I think they damage any chance of success
15:28<andythenorth>I go in there about once a month and run away
15:28<andythenorth>it's a cluster fuck of idiots
15:28<Jupix>thx for the opinion
15:28-!-Zuu [] has joined #openttd
15:29<Jupix>I might try to sell that as a project tagline. "clusterfuck of idiots"
15:29<Jupix>might lessen the drama
15:29-!-Markavian` [] has joined #openttd
15:30<Jupix>though interestingly, the drama is almost exclusively on this IRC channel. the forums are pretty enjoyable to browse and partake in. it's when I come here that I get the worse disses :D
15:31<Jupix>also you might wanna pay that forum a visit briefly, because it got overhauled in the last month
15:32<Jupix>new stickies etc
15:32<Jupix>same idiots still though
15:32<Jupix>including me
15:33<Rhamphoryncus>Jupix: just need to get them to start breeding. He'll learn respect when he's overrun by the hordes ;)
15:34<andythenorth>Jupix: I find it all kind of sad
15:34<andythenorth>your doc is nice
15:34<andythenorth>afaik you've started collecting sprites and such
15:34<andythenorth>and you have the will to pursue this
15:35-!-Knogle [] has quit []
15:35<andythenorth>you can't even render a cube in sketchup or blender?
15:35-!-Markavian [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:35*andythenorth started drawing cubes
15:36<andythenorth>cubes become buildings
15:37<Jupix>well, I might give it another shot when the semester is over, just for the hell of it :D
15:37<andythenorth>in blender or whatever (never used blender)
15:37<andythenorth>I'd do:
15:37<andythenorth>cube -> cuboid
15:37<andythenorth>add triangle = roof
15:37<andythenorth>add cylinder, scale = chimney
15:37<andythenorth>hit whatever the 'render' icon looks like
15:37<andythenorth>post on the forum for bragging rights
15:38*andythenorth is the 'just click buttons until something happens' type of person
15:38<andythenorth>as some here will have suffered through
15:38<Jupix>I'm more the "do it right the first time around" kind but I've been known to make mistakes on that
15:39*andythenorth should not be allowed to run a nuclear power plant
15:40<Elukka> <Jupix> also tried google sketchup which I believe zephyris used to some extent. didn't get past an empty slate
15:40<Elukka>sketchup is pretty easy
15:40<Elukka>because it actually gives a shit about user friendliness
15:40<Elukka>unlike blender
15:40<Elukka>well i guess blender tries, they probably just don't have any good UI guys
15:41<Jupix>yeah that's why I tried it. heard it was intended for "every man's 3d modeler" for google earth. made sense to me so gave it a shot
15:42<Jupix>it might even have improved since then
15:42<Jupix>trouble is I don't think we have rendering presets for sketchup
15:42<Jupix>don't even know if that's possible
15:43<Jupix>it might be necessary to model in sketcup and render in blender
15:46<Jupix>or, you know, just make my own preset, the time issue is currently more pressing :P
15:47<Mazur>Does anyone have a colour palette with (just) the colours of the industry chain/minimap colour?
15:47*Mazur is attempting to make a chain map for FIRS.
15:48<Mazur>With the same colours used in OTTD.
15:48<@Alberth>grabbing a screenshot of the minimap legend would be the simplest perhaps
15:48<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 2147483648/616514480
15:48<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 3.48326554796
15:49<Eddi|zuHause>weird number
15:49<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 2147483648/3.5
15:49<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 613566756.571
15:49<andythenorth>Mazur: they're in a file in the repo
15:49*andythenorth looks
15:49<@Alberth>about 21.4 / 6.1 :)
15:50<Eddi|zuHause>@base 10 16 617923888
15:50<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 24D4C530
15:50<Eddi|zuHause>@base 10 16 616514480
15:50<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 24BF43B0
15:52<andythenorth>Mazur: correcting they're no longer in a file in the repo
15:52<andythenorth>you can find an old nfo version
15:53<andythenorth>not sure if anything's changed since the migration
15:55<andythenorth>nobody believes this until it happens to them, but until you have kids you really have no idea what "I have no time means"
15:56<andythenorth>unless you have sick family to care for or such
15:56<andythenorth>Belugas: true or false? ^^
15:56-!-Chris_Booth[ph] [] has joined #openttd
15:56*Belugas reads
15:56*Alberth believes andy
15:57<@Belugas>yeah :)
15:57<@Belugas>and add a mom who is scared to death as soon as kiddo sneeze ;)
15:57*andythenorth has a sick newborn and a sick toddler right now :P
15:57<Chris_Booth[ph]>Belugas: It's mum
16:01<@Belugas>Thanks Chris_Booth[ph]
16:01<@Belugas>andythenorth, my sympathy. and my moral support too :)
16:01<Chris_Booth[ph]>Unless we are American and killing the English language
16:01-!-roboboy [] has joined #openttd
16:01<andythenorth>or Indian
16:02<andythenorth>or Canadian
16:02<andythenorth>killing the English language?
16:02*andythenorth recommends Chris_Booth[ph] goes away
16:03*Chris_Booth[ph] doesn't listen
16:04<Chris_Booth[ph]>It's called English not Indian, American or Canadian
16:05<Chris_Booth[ph]>People who borrow it should use it properly
16:05<andythenorth>what about people who have it imposed upon them by colonisation?
16:05<andythenorth>so Belugas' kid has a mum?
16:05<andythenorth>or a mom?
16:06<Chris_Booth[ph]>Every kind has a mum
16:06<andythenorth>kind is german
16:06<andythenorth>don't kill the language
16:06<Chris_Booth[ph]>That wasn't me that was my iPhone
16:06<Chris_Booth[ph]>and stupid autocorrect
16:07<andythenorth>can we autcorrect Chris_Booth[ph] ?
16:07<andythenorth>maybe with /kick or such?
16:07<Chris_Booth[ph]>That wouldn't be very nice would it andythenorth
16:08<andythenorth>neither is correcting Belugas incorrectly
16:08<andythenorth>title doesn't say UK English
16:08<@Alberth>andy: sir B is very capable of defending himself :p
16:09<Chris_Booth[ph]>No it doesn't andy, but guess where English comes from?
16:10<@Rubidium>Chris_Booth[ph]: amongst others the Netherlands and France ;)
16:10<@Alberth>or Canada :P
16:10<andythenorth>some arabic
16:11<andythenorth>some greek and latin
16:11<andythenorth>quite a lot of germanic
16:11<andythenorth>and some tiresome 'incorrect' borrowing of french in the 18th or 19th century
16:11<andythenorth>and some norse
16:12<andythenorth>and also some jamaican
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16:19*andythenorth wonders how sketchup works
16:20<@Alberth>red and slow? (like the stuff without 's')
16:21<@Belugas>[16:06] <Chris_Booth[ph]> That wasn't me that was my iPhone <-- ho.. nice... and I though you were intelligent...
16:23<andythenorth>needs a fricking admin password to install
16:24<supermop>so i've been actually playing the game lately
16:25<andythenorth>sketchup has a crappy interface
16:26<supermop>use rhino
16:26<andythenorth>oh I see
16:26<andythenorth>it's polygons and extrude
16:26<andythenorth>bored now
16:27-!-Chris_Booth[ph] [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:30<andythenorth>auto boolean?
16:30*andythenorth quits sketchup
16:31<Elukka>it has its flaws and isn't very capable
16:31<Elukka>i think it's the only 3D modeler that cares one bit about friendliness to new users though
16:32<Elukka>the rest are all 'oh yeah this is really great if you invest three months into learning it'
16:33*Alberth has only used povray, where you define everything with hard-core 3D coordinates, rotations, and translations :)
16:36<Elukka>yeah that's about the very opposite of user friendly :p
16:37<@Alberth>depends on what you consider to be your users :p
16:37<@Alberth>but it'd be interesting to try another one as well to see how it works
16:39<@Alberth>Elukka: the problem with UI is that either it is easy, but you can't get it to do complicated things, or the UI is complicated for new users, but very powerful for advanced users
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16:39<Elukka>if you have good UI design it can be both easy for new users and powerful for advanced users
16:40*Alberth doesn't buy that
16:40<@Alberth>it means you have lots of customizations, which means no uniformity, which means difficult to grasp for new users
16:41<@Alberth>or you have lots of knobs and buttons where the newbie just gets lost
16:41<Elukka>the most obvious way is to have a basic toolset that doesn't include 50 obscure functions
16:41<Elukka>that have utterly meaningless names unless you have knowledge of them beforehand
16:42<@Alberth>but you do have them, so different people have different UI experiences, which are not easy to transfer between users
16:44<Elukka>if you were to design an ui that you didn't even try to make accessible because oh it's impossible anyway, then i'd say you were a bad ui designer ;P
16:46<@Alberth>for people that understand the 50 obscure functions, it is very usable, I think.
16:47<Elukka>don't you want new users?
16:47<Elukka>a bad ui doesn't mean it's impossible to use
16:47<Elukka>everything is somewhat usable
16:47<Elukka>it's still a bad ui though and it's less usable and less people will use it
16:48<@Alberth>you are perhaps not amongst that group, but that's a different issue
16:48<@Alberth>just like I cannot find my way in gimp.
16:48<@Alberth>that's not gimp's fault, it is because I don't use it enough, and I have not read the manual
16:49<Elukka>it is partially gimp's fault
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16:50<@Alberth>but there are a zillion bitmap editing programs in the "easier" market share. gimp aims for the more professional area
16:52<@Alberth>users that feel limited with the easier tools will eventually switch to the more powerful tools. Those users don't mind the effort to learn
16:53<@Alberth>since it makes them more productive
16:54<Elukka>more tools does not mean the basics of the program have to be more difficult to grasp
16:54<Elukka>have the basic tools
16:54<Elukka>make a "advanced tools" tickbox which adds more tools to the mix
16:56<@Alberth>Hmm, nasty. Finish one function only to discover you're missing three more functions :p
16:57<@planetmaker>good evening
16:57<@Alberth>good night to all :)
16:57<Elukka>if you already knew how to work it you'd have advanced tools turned on from the start
16:58<Elukka>if you don't, well, because the basic tools are logically and intuitively arranged and named, you'll figure the advanced ones out eventually
16:58<@planetmaker>21:22 andythenorth: maybe 2CC set didn't <-- 2ccTS was not really community either. It had a strong lead by DJN and maybe earlier Purno
16:58<@planetmaker>thus coding and graphics
16:58<@Terkhen>good night
16:58<@planetmaker>it has and had a strong community to support it around this.
16:59<@planetmaker>But it basically re-inforces your statement that a project leads a strong lead of a person who actually *works* on it (code and graphics)
16:59<@planetmaker>And... as OpenGFX has no graphics person anymore... that's the whole reason I started to learn gimp
16:59<@planetmaker>That's why I actually invested the time to make the river sprites
17:00<@planetmaker>to beautify the factory, the food plant...
17:00<@planetmaker>these little things
17:00<@planetmaker>I'm not a great artists. But there's no-one whom this set can rely on continuously as artist. Anymore :-(
17:00<@Alberth>with good results, imho :)
17:01<@planetmaker>it's amazing how much time it eats though
17:01<@planetmaker>Taught me something ;-)
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17:02<@planetmaker>And andy, Zephyris and irwe were not bad examples to look at. And andy's advice was very valuable, too
17:02<@Alberth>for me, the beauty is mostly that it is small, no zillion engines to chose from
17:03<@Alberth>planetmaker: that's why you post stuff, and that's how you learn, and get better :p
17:03<@planetmaker>yeah... I recently got offered sprites for early wagons.
17:04<@planetmaker>which is nice :-)
17:04<Rhamphoryncus>Is there a hard maximum on units lower than 2**16?
17:04<@planetmaker>it's a const in the code
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17:05<@planetmaker>Apropos, Alberth: We now can have GUI in 1.5x zoom
17:05<Rhamphoryncus>I'm looking at math of units*(oldticks+newticks)/ticks, which means a temporary of 65 bits
17:05<Rhamphoryncus>planetmaker: thanks
17:05<@planetmaker>Rhamphoryncus: the 64k does not apply to ticks...
17:05<@planetmaker>I thought you meant vehicle count
17:06<Rhamphoryncus>planetmaker: ticks are 16 bits each. Adding two gives me 17 bits. Multiplying by units (which is 16 bits) gives me 33. Doh, said 65 above, meant 33.
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17:07<@planetmaker>hm... I might err. There might even be 2**20 bits reserved for vehicles (as in every single wagon etc)
17:08<Rhamphoryncus>Not a worry. My unit count is vehicles in the schedule, so those won't be included.
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17:10<Rhamphoryncus>I just need to use a uint64 on my temporary. I could do funky stuff on the ticks to reduce them to 15 bits, but that'd limit the timetable duration to just over a year (down from 2.5 years). Not a comfortable margin.
17:11<Eddi|zuHause>ever heard of casting?
17:12<Rhamphoryncus>Them thar thing I'll use to have a uint64 temporary? :P
17:12*Belugas casts a spell of invisibililty on self
17:12<Rhamphoryncus>Belugas: I attempt to disbelieve!
17:12<@DorpsGek>Hoo... I don't see Belugas anymore
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17:17<andythenorth>planetmaker: wrt 'community' sets...
17:17<andythenorth>they're a bit like people who build lego sets
17:17<andythenorth>it's a 'community' because they're all engaged in the same activity
17:17<andythenorth>using similar set of parts
17:17<andythenorth>but it's not really a project
17:18<@planetmaker>well... it can be a project.
17:18<@planetmaker>After all OpenTTD itself is also a "community project"
17:18<Rhamphoryncus>Uh oh. I think I'm getting too casual with my pseudocode when I start ending lines with periods
17:18<andythenorth>it's a project with a community
17:18<@planetmaker>And the same is true for OpenGFX, and also in a way sets like ECS, FIRS, etc
17:19<@planetmaker>yes, it depends on how you define "community project", I guess
17:19<andythenorth>I usually see it associated with 'fail'
17:19<@planetmaker>but what you cannot do is outsource responsibility
17:19<andythenorth>the lego analogy probably works, but I'd need to refine it :P
17:21<@planetmaker>someone, noone and everyone's project: someone wanted to do something, everybody wanted a say in it and nobody the responsibility to actually do and decide something
17:21<@planetmaker>that is fail
17:21<@Yexo>if you set up a community project as a project that should be done by a community you're bound to fail. A project done by one (or a few people) with a community behind it as support will be fine
17:23<@planetmaker>and that will even be better off than a one-person project
17:23<@planetmaker>often. As some *work* can be outsourced. But not the responsibility
17:25<@Yexo>eventually the responsibility can be shared between multiple people, but never over the complete community
17:25<@planetmaker>yes, sure
17:25<andythenorth>responsibility has to vest
17:25<@planetmaker>it can also be passed on
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17:30<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r23848 /trunk/src/vehicle_cmd.cpp: -Fix: Even if A == B, A can make more sense than B.
17:31<andythenorth>sounds like first year philosophy lecture ^
17:31<andythenorth>philosophy is probably just compsci in disguise no?
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17:34<andythenorth>Jupix: I rescind my advice about just getting started with Sketchup
17:34<andythenorth>it's a PITA
17:35*andythenorth is too lazy to persevere
17:39<andythenorth>but also -> bed
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17:39<@Rubidium>good idea andy ;)
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18:07<cypher>Hi. Is it possible to change server settings during multiplayer? I'm thinking station spread...
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18:10<cypher>Nobody? :(
18:11<Eddi|zuHause>cypher: lots of settings cannot be changed, others can
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18:12<cypher>Eddi|zuHause : and which one is this? When I save that game, load it on my localhost and then chage the station spread, it works (locally). When we stop the server and change the station spread, it doesn't work. Could it be done somehow?
18:12<Eddi|zuHause>how should i know?
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18:13<cypher>Well I thought since you started answering...
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18:13<Eddi|zuHause>you can, obviously, upload your locally changed game to the server
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18:13<cypher>That I will try.
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21:02<Eddi|zuHause>we *really* need to increase the default timeouts
21:06<Eddi|zuHause>also, we need a "connection timed out" error message
21:08<Asteconn>480 is pretty generous in my view
21:08<Asteconn>Also - in the UKRS - what do brake vans do? Or are they just eyecandy?
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21:11<Eddi|zuHause>afaik early trains need them, if they reach a certain length
21:15<Asteconn>Ah righty
21:15<Asteconn>You wouldn't happen to know what length would you?
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21:23<Asteconn>Is it usually this quiet in here? o.ô Or is everyone just idling because they're playing TTD? =3
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21:30<Eddi|zuHause>it is usually that quiet at 3:30 AM
21:34<Asteconn>Most of the populace European?
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21:57<Asteconn>What are everyone's preferred GRFs then?
22:03<Rhamphoryncus>Only one I use consistently is trams
22:03<Rhamphoryncus>And there's several of those. Dunno which ones are the good ones ;)
22:04<kais58>my server runs OpenGFX+
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22:07<Asteconn>I've never managed to get OpenGFX+ to work actually
22:07<Asteconn>Question marks everywhere D:
22:10<Asteconn>As I cannot remember off hand, does UKRS include any 3rd rail stuff?
22:16<Asteconn>And another odd question: why are some of my trains of the same sort in slightly different liveries?
22:17<Asteconn>I have 4 Brush type 4s sporting 2 different paint jobs
22:19<Rhamphoryncus>Some newgrf sets randomly select different appearances
22:19<Rhamphoryncus>I've only noticed it for horse-drawn buses, but I'm sure it could be done for other vehicles
22:21<Asteconn>Ahhh righty! Awesome
22:29<Rhamphoryncus>Is there any existing/cheap way to tell if a vehicle is at a station loading/waiting on the timetable? I'm hesitant to loop over all the vehicles every time I do an update (potentially once a tick, for a very busy route)
22:34<Rhamphoryncus>I could keep a running count, but then I'd have to track down all the ways a vehicle can change what it's doing..
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---Logclosed Wed Jan 25 00:00:41 2012