| --- | Log | opened Tue Jan 24 00:00:34 2012 |
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| 03:27 | <dihedral> | good morning |
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| 05:28 | <welshdragon> | mornong |
| 05:28 | <welshdragon> | *morning |
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| 06:32 | <chester> | hi all, who can explain what is the difference between secondary and tertiary industries? there are no explanations in wiki as for primary |
| 06:33 | <chester> | now tertiary consists of toy shop (accerts only), printing works and factory (accepts and produces) |
| 06:36 | <andythenorth> | chain is primary -> secondary -> tertiary |
| 06:36 | <andythenorth> | so forest -> paper mill -> printing works |
| 06:36 | <andythenorth> | or coal mine -> steel mill -> factory |
| 06:36 | <andythenorth> | primary = produces with no inputs |
| 06:37 | <andythenorth> | secondary = produces from primary delivered cargo |
| 06:37 | <andythenorth> | tertiary = produces from secondary delivered cargo |
| 06:38 | <chester> | ah now i c, first i though that tertiary is accepting non-producing ones |
| 06:38 | <andythenorth> | may or may not produce |
| 06:39 | <andythenorth> | the real world definition of tertiary is something like 'produces services, not products' |
| 06:39 | <andythenorth> | but that is not so relevant here :) |
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| 06:41 | <chester> | im gonna put couple of words to with this |
| 06:41 | <spongie> | Hello. I have problems when playing online, sometimes before i have time to set a password, some anonymous player will join my company, borrow cash and steal all the money. Is there a way to remove a player from the company? |
| 06:42 | <chester> | server admin can |
| 06:43 | <SpComb> | doesn't the game have a default company password now? |
| 06:45 | <chester> | 123? |
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| 06:45 | <spongie> | dunno. this has happened more than once anyway. |
| 06:46 | <chester> | you should enter the server as spectator, then create a company |
| 06:46 | <chester> | this leave little time to join and steal |
| 06:47 | <chester> | or if you have slow connection he has planty of time to do this |
| 06:48 | <chester> | spectator-create-fast simple password-your password |
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| 07:03 | <SpComb> | as in, I recall seeing some button to set a default password that's used when creating a new company |
| 07:06 | <chester> | back to the future? |
| 07:08 | <chester> | iv found an option in openttd.cfg |
| 07:10 | <chester> | but dont have any button ingame |
| 07:11 | <@planetmaker> | spongie, set a default password for your company. Then you don't have to do that manually |
| 07:11 | <chester> | sponge: check this http://wiki.openttd.org/Openttd.cfg#.5Bnetwork.5D |
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| 08:38 | <appe> | poop. |
| 08:42 | <dihedral> | wipe. |
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| 08:57 | <spongie> | planetmaker: good point |
| 08:57 | <spongie> | it's also the second time now when some bored player terraform around my stuff and buy the land to shut my operations down |
| 08:59 | <spongie> | the same guy build railtracks on roads and put a train there for permablock |
| 09:07 | <@Belugas> | hello |
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| 11:25 | <Jupix> | diar diary, today I got greenlighted by one senior lecturer to write my bachelor's thesis on the subject of openttd :P |
| 11:25 | <Jupix> | dear* |
| 11:26 | <Jupix> | though I'm now gonna have to appear before a think tank of a few other senior lecturers / UAS brass and they can still shoot it down if they so decide |
| 11:27 | <@blathijs> | Jupix: Awesome! Any specific question you'll be looking at? |
| 11:28 | <Jupix> | almost certainly |
| 11:28 | <Jupix> | which one, is not sure yet |
| 11:28 | <Jupix> | but it's almost certainly some aspect of 32bit gfxdev |
| 11:29 | <Jupix> | so either licensing, or project lifecycle, or open-source development as a business case, or something like that.. |
| 11:30 | <@planetmaker> | as a business case might be... a bit difficult with OpenTTD as example ;-) |
| 11:30 | <@blathijs> | Jupix: For what Bachelor? |
| 11:30 | <Jupix> | business administration with emphasis on business law |
| 11:31 | <@planetmaker> | wrt licensing "fun" OpenTTD and its extensions on the other hand is a very fruitful test case |
| 11:31 | <Jupix> | planetmaker: I thought about that argument on my way home. it's actually not as crazy as it sounds. we've got most aspects of business life covered, just the profit is missing |
| 11:31 | <@planetmaker> | can you explain? |
| 11:32 | <__ln__> | Jupix: how about "Planting Trees as a Strategy for Gaining Popularity Among the Consumers of the Locally Relevant City Inhabitants"? |
| 11:32 | <Jupix> | we have people who make the machine work, we have something that loosely fits the description of an organization, with its own culture, we've got infrastructure, and we have a product and a core competence |
| 11:33 | <Jupix> | __ln__: :D |
| 11:34 | <+michi_cc> | If you look at it less "business-ish", profit doesn't have to mean money, but can also be intangible things like common good. |
| 11:35 | <Jupix> | absolutely |
| 11:37 | <SpComb> | profit = common good earned - common evil generated? :) |
| 11:38 | <Jupix> | common evil as in people playing openttd @ work? :D |
| 11:40 | <@Rubidium> | no, evil as in playing it while doing your thesis presentation ;) |
| 11:41 | <Jupix> | hah |
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| 12:22 | <@planetmaker> | Jupix, you still have the wrong real-life scales in the document :-( |
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| 12:29 | <Jupix> | planetmaker: but... I specifically added a reminder that scale changes on an item to item basis |
| 12:30 | <@planetmaker> | "Releases may or may not be immediately accompanied by sources and |
| 12:30 | <@planetmaker> | licensing information." Right. That's absolutely incompatible with GPL. Release and provide source. Or violate license |
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| 12:30 | <@Rubidium> | planetmaker: not really |
| 12:30 | <@Rubidium> | you can release without the source |
| 12:31 | <@Rubidium> | you just need to send the source code when someone asks for it |
| 12:31 | <@planetmaker> | yeah. But not without licensing information, Rubidium |
| 12:31 | <@Rubidium> | well, if it has no license then you basically can't use it |
| 12:32 | <@planetmaker> | Jupix, and it misses IMHO the only really important point: making clear there's one license and only one license which the project works with |
| 12:32 | <@planetmaker> | it talks again about this and that and compatible and so on. |
| 12:32 | <Jupix> | note the difference between the 32bit project and the base set replacement project |
| 12:32 | <@planetmaker> | I didn't |
| 12:33 | <Jupix> | the former includes newgrf's etc which I can't tell everyone to start licensing under GPL |
| 12:33 | <Jupix> | the latter is GPL or compatible only and requires sources as a mandate |
| 12:33 | <Jupix> | which p.15 is pretty clear about, correct? |
| 12:36 | <@planetmaker> | what's that talk then about which I quoted? |
| 12:36 | <Jupix> | incidentally p.15 is where the part you're most interested in begins. content before that is something i suggest for everything including 32bpp newgrfs |
| 12:36 | <Jupix> | all 32bit graphics, including stuff like the spainset, etc... |
| 12:37 | <Jupix> | the GPL stuff, the "opengfx 32bit" for lack of a better word is from p.15 onwards |
| 12:37 | <Jupix> | it's only a subset of the whole |
| 12:37 | <@planetmaker> | I guess this distinction should be made absolutely clear. And IMHO NewGRFs can be left out completely. Probably should |
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| 12:38 | <Jupix> | I'd like to keep it in there for consistency and clarity mainly |
| 12:38 | <@planetmaker> | it can be easily missed, especially through the lengthy definition of terms and words which rival about the documents I receive from space administrations |
| 12:38 | <Jupix> | hmm |
| 12:39 | <Jupix> | how about paragraph 1 of chapter 5? |
| 12:39 | <Jupix> | does it leave room for confusion? |
| 12:39 | <@planetmaker> | it talks about undefined things |
| 12:40 | <Jupix> | such as? |
| 12:40 | <@planetmaker> | Naming of zoom levels. I'd call the zoom levels by what they really are: 1x 2x and 4x |
| 12:40 | <@planetmaker> | where 1x is TTD default |
| 12:41 | <@planetmaker> | oh, you mean the one preceeding chapter 5.1? |
| 12:42 | <Jupix> | yes |
| 12:42 | <@planetmaker> | Well. IMHO there's little point to talk about NewGRFs |
| 12:43 | <Jupix> | I just kinda disagree I guess ;) I'd like stuff like the spainset to go as much by the same visual and release standards as possible .. although I obviously can't force those into the mould |
| 12:43 | <@planetmaker> | it adds nothing to the point. It distracts from the project's purpose. |
| 12:43 | <@planetmaker> | I don't say it's not good. But NewGRFs can do what they want anyway. They're well advised to follow the base set. |
| 12:44 | <@planetmaker> | But including them in these specs is a digression which dilutes the contents and purpose of the paper as a whole |
| 12:44 | <Jupix> | I understand |
| 12:44 | <Jupix> | I don't agree completely but I do understand . I'm thinking right now ... |
| 12:47 | <Jupix> | I am kinda heavily leaning towards keeping it as-is, because there are heavy arguments towards making it so, such as getting all that stuff released using the same delivery method ... the issue of clarity as far as making that policy overwhelm the reader is a problem that can be fixed at the wiki phase I believe ... it might not be worth another rewrite of the spec to just reorder it or break it down into base set rules and general a |
| 12:47 | <Jupix> | do you agree this is something that could be worked when the stuff is on wiki ? |
| 12:48 | <Jupix> | after all there are few rules that are imposed on newgrfs per se... |
| 12:50 | <@planetmaker> | I think it's bad style to pose for "public vote" (by whom) a summary package which even we two barely can overview as a whole |
| 12:50 | <@planetmaker> | you'll get the answers. They'll be all "fine, let's go". But... to what avail? |
| 12:50 | <@planetmaker> | They'll be given without sound knowledge of the implications bare the technical aspects and limitations |
| 12:51 | <@planetmaker> | Thus especially for this reason I'd advocate to break it down to easily digestible units which can individually be discussed than broad summary things to "vote on" |
| 12:52 | <@planetmaker> | But it's your thing. I mentioned also previously the issue with the scales. Obviously to no avail. Thus... I don't feel like lengthy arguing tbh. |
| 12:52 | <@Belugas> | strange... just realized that VOTE and VETO are anagrams... |
| 12:53 | <@planetmaker> | IMHO the whole thing to "put in stone" is a tad early. |
| 12:53 | <@planetmaker> | I'd suggest a few graphics guide lines for the objects and sprites. |
| 12:53 | <Jupix> | this layout of the spec has been viewable and commentable since march 2010, and no one complained about it but you, planetmaker, not even youself until now that we're into its 7th revision :P |
| 12:53 | <@planetmaker> | I'd skip the technical part on zoom levels as that's so far undefined |
| 12:54 | <@planetmaker> | Jupix, considered the the possibility of "no need for specs beyond 'graphics are to be in ttd style'"? |
| 12:54 | <Jupix> | and I did "fix" the issue you had with the scale bit, but obviously not to your satisfaction, which you also didn't write down in the thread I posted in the 32bit forum |
| 12:55 | <Jupix> | well, I think the spec speaks pretty fine for why there is need for such a thing |
| 12:55 | <@planetmaker> | Bad luck then that I didn't find the "right" thread? |
| 12:55 | <Jupix> | you posted in it! |
| 12:56 | <@planetmaker> | I'm sure I mentioned the graphics scale more than once. But well. |
| 12:56 | <@planetmaker> | Take the input as you get it. Do with it what you like |
| 12:56 | <Jupix> | http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=58216 |
| 12:57 | <Jupix> | you mentioned nothing about the scale fix not being to your satisfaction |
| 12:57 | <@planetmaker> | so do I always have to repeat myself? |
| 12:57 | <@planetmaker> | as you obviously even remember? |
| 12:58 | <Jupix> | is it repetition, if the information was not posted in the first place? |
| 12:58 | <@Terkhen> | hello |
| 12:58 | <@planetmaker> | anyway. This discussion of who said what when where is fruitless and besides every point |
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| 13:00 | <Jupix> | well, like I said, this has been planned and available for about 2 years now. I think we're past "what's the point" |
| 13:00 | <Jupix> | I just had to post it, since I thought it was done and fixed, and no one commented further |
| 13:00 | <@planetmaker> | http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/971/ <-- just to help your memory. I told you. Quote from our communication |
| 13:01 | <Jupix> | would you like me to paste the revision before that communication, and the revised version? |
| 13:02 | <@planetmaker> | no need. The graphics scale is given at least in the one we see now. |
| 13:02 | <@planetmaker> | which is the point I talked about ;-) |
| 13:03 | <Jupix> | are you blind to the bolded bit below it? |
| 13:03 | <@planetmaker> | so you make graphs which give a scale and in the text you deny the scale given in the graphs? Sounds... not good. People read images |
| 13:03 | <@planetmaker> | That's what sticks |
| 13:05 | <Jupix> | uh, well yes, that paper is written with the assumption that a man interested in issue X will read the bit concerning it in its entirety, including text |
| 13:06 | <Jupix> | since it's pretty low on useless words anyway |
| 13:06 | <Jupix> | if you just glance through half of it, sure you'll probably be confused |
| 13:06 | <Jupix> | I think that goes for any spec |
| 13:06 | <@planetmaker> | The first thing under "7.5 Scale" is "In z0, one square equals 12.5 x 12.5 meters, and 512 x 512 pixels" |
| 13:06 | <@planetmaker> | It's highlighted by being separated from the text |
| 13:07 | <@planetmaker> | The big image below, gives exactly that again |
| 13:08 | <Jupix> | the bolded bit overrules that for airplanes and ships etc |
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| 13:08 | <Jupix> | it's just putting into words what should be obvious to an artist |
| 13:08 | <@planetmaker> | And the text then says "can be scaled down to a size that makes sense in the context". Then the whole scale makes no sense. Thus the specs are highly ambiguous. |
| 13:09 | <@planetmaker> | And the main impression which it gives is "use this exact scale unless absolutely not possible" |
| 13:09 | <Jupix> | scale *has* to be ambiguous by the very definition of our game engine, right? |
| 13:09 | <@planetmaker> | exactly. And that's why it should just be removed from there. Especially any figures which relate pixels to metres |
| 13:09 | <@planetmaker> | It's nothing which a set should even try to rectify |
| 13:10 | <Jupix> | why remove it when it is a useful guideline? |
| 13:10 | <@planetmaker> | Just remove the first paragraph and both images from that subchapter and then it will befine |
| 13:10 | <@planetmaker> | it's not a useful guide. |
| 13:10 | <@planetmaker> | It's a misguidance |
| 13:10 | <@planetmaker> | for exactly the reason: it does not apply. |
| 13:11 | <@planetmaker> | It doesn't apply for a train |
| 13:11 | <@planetmaker> | It doesn't apply for a building |
| 13:11 | <@planetmaker> | It doesn't apply for an industry |
| 13:11 | <@planetmaker> | it doesn't apply for a tree |
| 13:11 | <@planetmaker> | etc |
| 13:12 | <@planetmaker> | The simple words "use the same proportions and scalings as found in the existing base sets" is much much clearer and much much less ambiguous |
| 13:13 | <Rhamphoryncus> | Pity that conditional load orders for the current station don't equate to "load to this amount" |
| 13:13 | <Jupix> | planetmaker: your above 6 lines or so are the first ones with some real information :D |
| 13:13 | <Jupix> | it changes a lot |
| 13:14 | <@planetmaker> | That's what I said before: it applies to _no_ _single_ game item. Except maybe road vehicles |
| 13:14 | <Jupix> | because until now that scale was factual to me for trains, trees, rv's, etc, because it was conceived by someone who'd done it all, meaning Ben R. |
| 13:14 | <@planetmaker> | But even there the height is wrong |
| 13:15 | <@planetmaker> | as a bus is also just one height level. And they're much higher than 2m |
| 13:15 | <@planetmaker> | and a bus is longer than 6m |
| 13:15 | <@planetmaker> | thus a normal cab is then at the right scale. Maybe |
| 13:15 | <Eddi|zuHause> | [24.01.2012 17:28] <Jupix> but it's almost certainly some aspect of 32bit gfxdev <-- you mean "what causes such an interesting project to be an utter failure"? |
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| 13:16 | <Jupix> | not that no |
| 13:16 | <Jupix> | it's not an utter failure either :D |
| 13:17 | <Eddi|zuHause> | imho it is... |
| 13:17 | <Jupix> | it's funny you should even make such a claim :D |
| 13:17 | <Jupix> | shows some true ignorance in its purest form |
| 13:17 | <Eddi|zuHause> | just barely above the BROS set |
| 13:18 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Jupix: if you look besides the awesome graphics, exactly _nothing_ of value has been produced |
| 13:18 | <Jupix> | that's a lie |
| 13:18 | <Jupix> | and since the product of the project is awesome graphics, I don't get why you would "look besides" those |
| 13:20 | <@planetmaker> | well, "nice graphics" is somewhat the point of the project, not, Eddi|zuHause ? |
| 13:20 | <Eddi|zuHause> | no, a "product" is something that is practically usable. i.e. in 32bpp-context a download that can be put into the game |
| 13:20 | <Jupix> | what part of that does not exist, right now? |
| 13:22 | <Jupix> | also, do you think it moves the project along to diss it in public with lies, like this? |
| 13:22 | <Jupix> | and why would you want it to *not* have the best probability of sucess? |
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| 13:26 | <Wolf01> | hello |
| 13:28 | * | planetmaker is off to sports |
| 13:28 | <Jupix> | have fun |
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| 13:31 | <@Rubidium> | Jupix: there is at least a lack of recent "32bpp-ez sprite" supporting binaries |
| 13:31 | <Jupix> | true :( |
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| 13:32 | <Jupix> | that problem might be solved with ez sprite loading in trunk ;) |
| 13:33 | <@Rubidium> | the problem is that the sprite loading is very slow at the moment |
| 13:33 | <@Rubidium> | at least for the 32bpp that has to look for multiple files, etc |
| 13:33 | <@Rubidium> | especially in the way that currently happens |
| 13:34 | <Jupix> | got any suggestions how to fix that? |
| 13:34 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Jupix: another aspect is the amount of "work" already done compared to e.g. the 8bpp replacement (opengfx) |
| 13:35 | <Jupix> | Eddi|zuHause: the amount of "work" done in 32 bits right now is *vast* |
| 13:35 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Jupix: not in comparison with the amount of "work" that needs to be done |
| 13:35 | <@Rubidium> | Jupix: there is an idea that puts in just in the GRF |
| 13:35 | <andythenorth> | efening |
| 13:35 | <+michi_cc> | Jupix: GRF container version 2 which will store all sprites (32bpp and/or more zoom levels) directly inside the GRF file. |
| 13:36 | <Jupix> | Eddi|zuHause: your solution to that is to undermine what's been done already? |
| 13:36 | <@Rubidium> | Jupix: agreed, the amount of work done for 32 bits graphics is vast, however... not all are consistent and many if not all think that 32bpp graphics entails things that are outside of the scope of changing the number of colours per pixel |
| 13:37 | <@Rubidium> | like shadows on/over other tiles, grass over other tiles, longer vehicles, curved corners, ... |
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| 13:37 | <Jupix> | the consistency I'm trying to improve as best as in my almost non-existent power |
| 13:37 | <mib_mf7f6w> | watch splitfirelive gamestream(playing league of legends) www.twitch.tv/splitfirelive - Support by just watching ! |
| 13:37 | <mib_mf7f6w> | watch splitfirelive gamestream(playing league of legends) www.twitch.tv/splitfirelive - Support by just watching ! |
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| 13:38 | <Jupix> | the "artists's wet dreams" as I like to call the rest of what you wrote are something that is not holding the sprite conversion progress back, I think |
| 13:39 | <@Rubidium> | no, but many sprites are drawn using those assumptions |
| 13:39 | <+michi_cc> | Jupix: A lot of the sprites aren't usable IMNSHO. Either because of things that stick out to the sides (grass, shadows etc), because of inconsistencies between similar sprites, overreliance on the ez-patch recolour algorithm or because they are plain ugly (sorry, but I think those squashed rail vehicles do not look good). |
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| 13:42 | <Jupix> | Rubidium: that is a problem of the artist in question, IMO... most of them know better and if they do it still, should be aware that they can't be used if they bug out in the unpatched binary |
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| 13:42 | -!- | mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ |
| 13:43 | <Jupix> | michi_cc: bugs are bugs. opinions as far as appearance are opinions. |
| 13:43 | <andythenorth> | why not skip 32bpp and implement 3d? |
| 13:43 | <Jupix> | you should be careful what you judge "unusable", methinks... |
| 13:44 | -!- | mode/#openttd [+o glx] by DorpsGek |
| 13:44 | -!- | mode/#openttd [+b mib_*!*@*] by glx |
| 13:44 | -!- | mode/#openttd [-o glx] by DorpsGek |
| 13:45 | <CIA-1> | OpenTTD: translators * r23846 /trunk/src/lang/ (belarusian.txt finnish.txt french.txt): |
| 13:45 | <CIA-1> | OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: |
| 13:45 | <CIA-1> | OpenTTD: belarusian - 3 changes by KorneySan |
| 13:45 | <CIA-1> | OpenTTD: finnish - 3 changes by jpx_ |
| 13:45 | <CIA-1> | OpenTTD: french - 22 changes by OliTTD |
| 13:45 | <Jupix> | I find it interesting that you (all) have these opinions and think this and that are wrong, should be improved, won't do, are utter fail, or embarassing. yet I don't remember any of you posting any of it in the forums recently ... why is this? if you did post, and no one bothered to work a fix, why do you think that is? |
| 13:46 | <Jupix> | it's kinda sad that the only one really vocally interested in the code side of 32bits is geektoo, it would appear |
| 13:47 | <@Rubidium> | well, TrueBrain was some years ago. He then implemented 32bpp and nobody used it |
| 13:48 | <@Rubidium> | having said that, I have posted long ago... but comments got ignored because "the code must be changed so the graphics work the way I draw them" |
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| 13:48 | <@Rubidium> | e.g. the trains being drawn too long |
| 13:48 | <@Rubidium> | and after a while you simply don't really care anymore |
| 13:49 | <Jupix> | do you believe, were you to implement the functionality in geektoo's patch in trunk right now, and make it easier for the player to play in 32bpp, no one would use it? |
| 13:49 | <Jupix> | as for those artist opinions. I |
| 13:49 | <Jupix> | ... |
| 13:50 | <@Rubidium> | the problem is not having the people wanting to use 32bpp graphics |
| 13:50 | <Jupix> | I feel sad for the discussion that was apparently lost. you could've set them straight |
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| 13:51 | <@Rubidium> | the problem is more with there being a "desync" in the perception of the changes that are going to be done to the code between the artists and the (trunk) developers |
| 13:52 | <Jupix> | I'd be glad to fix that if you could throw me a pm and detail that desync in a bit more detail |
| 13:52 | <Jupix> | it's clearly an information issue |
| 13:53 | <Jupix> | perhaps on both sides because for the current actives I don't think anyone expects the devs to implement anything besides ez sprite loading and ingame change of blitter |
| 13:54 | <@Rubidium> | AllTaken has drawn beautiful switches and bridges, but they're "useless" because the code doesn't work that way, and we want to keep the TTD style. Not create a complete new game with a few hints of the TTD economy |
| 13:55 | <Jupix> | he hasn't been drawing as long as I've been around, and I've been around since 2008 or something... |
| 13:55 | <@Rubidium> | well, no need for a pm. The desync is simply that the developers think: replace sprites and possibly improve the recolouring a bit, *all* other stuff is not what 32bpp is about. For the artists all the other stuff is what 32bpp is about, not the actual sprite replacement |
| 13:56 | <@Rubidium> | Jupix: http://doug.mudpuddle.co.nz/gallery/main.php/d/358-2/newtracks.jpg |
| 13:57 | <Jupix> | yep ... I recall seeing that file at least 3, probably closer to 5 years ago |
| 13:57 | <Jupix> | no one expects that to be implemented today, tomorrow or 2 years from now, no one also draws stuff that wild |
| 13:57 | <@Rubidium> | http://doug.mudpuddle.co.nz/gallery/main.php/d/376-2/airport1.jpg <- that could actually be coded with a newgrf airport (once that code is complete) |
| 13:58 | <@Rubidium> | Jupix: but those drawings were from 2005. Ever since the artists started with 32bpp graphics that was their idea |
| 13:58 | <@Rubidium> | (the curved tracks and such) |
| 13:59 | <Jupix> | an idea of a couple artists, not the project! |
| 13:59 | <@Rubidium> | but that artist *was* the project |
| 13:59 | <Jupix> | no more |
| 13:59 | <@Alberth> | so, how many sprites exist today that work in trunk? |
| 14:00 | <Jupix> | Alberth: http://jupix.info/openttd/gfxdev-tools/progress/ |
| 14:00 | <@Rubidium> | true, but all those graphics and history is what people see scrolling through the threads. They expect that and start drawing like that. The bits of comment that the few developers give are text and are more easily missed than stunning looking graphics |
| 14:02 | <Jupix> | Rubidium: 1. I think the basic premise of that argument is untrue. everywhere we say we are implementing openttd in 32 bits, not all the curved tracks jazz, not yet. and 2. you need to be more vocal as devs and really set the record straight, if you think people in there are wrong |
| 14:02 | <Jupix> | you can't just disappear out of conversations and think you've made your point |
| 14:03 | <@Alberth> | Jupix: that would be a full time job, as 32bpp is not the only sub-project |
| 14:03 | <@Alberth> | if the project owner does not care, why should we ? |
| 14:03 | <Jupix> | who is the project owner? |
| 14:04 | <@Rubidium> | Jupix: but after months telling your bank that you moved house and they still haven't fixed their administration you just go to another bank, right? |
| 14:04 | <@Rubidium> | at least I do |
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| 14:05 | <Jupix> | Rubidium: I honestly don't understand |
| 14:05 | <@Alberth> | telling the same thing over and over again without getting your point across tends to be very frustrating |
| 14:05 | <@Alberth> | so after a while you stop doing that |
| 14:06 | * | andythenorth proposes deleting the 32bpp forums |
| 14:06 | <andythenorth> | might help |
| 14:06 | <andythenorth> | it's pure tumbleweed afaict |
| 14:06 | <@Rubidium> | you can keep telling people over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over that something is wrong, but eventually you reach a moment where it is "too much" and you just "zone" out |
| 14:06 | <@Alberth> | andythenorth: nah, they will just create a new one, probably all over the place :) |
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| 14:07 | <andythenorth> | Alberth: maybe it's done right this time though? |
| 14:07 | <andythenorth> | and maybe we have less 'they'? :) |
| 14:07 | <andythenorth> | as long as it's 'they' not 'we' it's not happening |
| 14:07 | <@Alberth> | looking at recent "help I don't get 32bpp running" spam I am not too optimistic :p |
| 14:08 | <andythenorth> | personally I don't give 2 craps about 32bpp |
| 14:08 | <andythenorth> | but if support is needed for improving the process it might be worth providing |
| 14:08 | <Jupix> | Rubidium: this is so unbelievably frustrating to me because I'm trying to prevent that exact kind of information blackout |
| 14:08 | <Jupix> | Alberth: sadly that is an issue with something altogether than standardizing sprites |
| 14:09 | <Jupix> | altogether different* |
| 14:10 | <@Alberth> | yep, it's a different issue. But it adds to the confusion |
| 14:10 | <Jupix> | the 32bit game is difficult to set up. that's why there is that spam. I've tried to do my best to write guides and tutorials and encourage others to do the same, but in the end there's only so much you can do before it stops being an information problem and starts being a technical implementation problem that we don't have the person to correct |
| 14:10 | <@Rubidium> | andythenorth: without a 32bpp blitter you probably wouldn't even have OpenTTD on your computer |
| 14:13 | <Jupix> | there are problems with the graphics creation bit, sure. but there are also problems that are not within the 32bit contributors power to fix, such as the whole thing being so difficult to set up from scratch, and the devs abandoning it as a project (you don't need to convince me that it was for a good reason at some point, I get it) |
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| 14:14 | <Jupix> | I think it's difficult to justify anyone crisizing me or the project for the latter part |
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| 14:15 | <Jupix> | also, the "they" and "us" issue. that really saddens me. are we really such outcasts? |
| 14:15 | <Rhamphoryncus> | Jupix: If there is any project owner or leader it's not something I, as an outsider, can see |
| 14:15 | <Rhamphoryncus> | Which is a common problem for open source games |
| 14:15 | <Jupix> | yep. that's the point. there is none |
| 14:15 | <Jupix> | no developer has taken it as his pet |
| 14:15 | <Jupix> | recently.. |
| 14:16 | <Jupix> | there's also been no competent contributor who could've made it to developerness |
| 14:16 | <Jupix> | which is sad |
| 14:16 | <Rhamphoryncus> | I have the time and the skill to do major patches. I have itches to scratch. But I don't bother because I can't expect my patches to be applied (or seriously discussed, preferably before I put the effort it.) |
| 14:16 | <@Alberth> | Jupix: why do you need a developer? |
| 14:16 | <@Alberth> | can you not make normal zoom 32bpp? |
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| 14:17 | <@Alberth> | evenink frosch123 |
| 14:17 | <@Rubidium> | Jupix: it's a massive chicken-egg problem |
| 14:18 | <@Rubidium> | it's the same thing opengfx had to conquer |
| 14:18 | <Jupix> | Alberth: we can make normal zoom 32bits, of course we can. what devs are needed for is twofold: 1. to solve the programminng issues and make the end-user experience as good as it can be, and 2. to serve as a motivation, to show that the thing has support |
| 14:19 | <frosch123> | moin albert :) |
| 14:19 | <@Rubidium> | they started to work and had a way of showing the sprites. Once it started to get over a critical point it became interesting for the developers to invest some time in making it loaded easily |
| 14:19 | <@Rubidium> | then once it was loaded easily opengfx got a spurt completing the rest of the sprites |
| 14:20 | <Jupix> | would you not say we are moving in the same direction? |
| 14:20 | <Jupix> | we may not be there yet ... but we're moving |
| 14:21 | <@Rubidium> | yeah |
| 14:21 | <Jupix> | the only thing I can do my best for is to get "our" act together as best I can, and hope we make enough progress that the technical side will get love as well |
| 14:21 | <@Rubidium> | but you don't really have an artist "in the lead", i.e. doing a lot of work pulling other into it |
| 14:22 | <Jupix> | I know. that's very sad |
| 14:22 | <Rhamphoryncus> | Something like getsatisfaction (but free) could be very effective for proposing ideas, if the head developer put enough regular effort it to discuss and approve ideas |
| 14:23 | <@Alberth> | Jupix: programming issues for trunk? |
| 14:23 | <Jupix> | Ben R. used to be a huge force behind 32 bits but he's currently on an overseas assignment @ work. yes, we don't have a powerhouse like Zephyris at opengfx. I'm hoping someone like him will turn up at 32 bits. perhaps even he, himself since he did his work in 32 bits I think, and then converted to 8 bits |
| 14:24 | <CIA-1> | OpenTTD: rubidium * r23847 /trunk/src/road_cmd.cpp: -Fix: when removing road or tram from a tram+road stop, the owner of the road stop's cache was updated instead of the owner of the removed infrastructure |
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| 14:24 | <andythenorth> | the chicken egg problem would be solved if someone like me started making 32bpp (EZ?) sets |
| 14:24 | <andythenorth> | ? |
| 14:24 | <Jupix> | Alberth: programmning issues *out of* trunk would be preferable ;) |
| 14:24 | <Jupix> | andythenorth: it would help |
| 14:25 | <Jupix> | it wouldn't guarantee instant success |
| 14:25 | <@Alberth> | Jupix: usually waiting for someone to come along is a bad strategy; people will only come/contribute when there something is happening/existing |
| 14:25 | <Jupix> | I've already stated today that as it stands there *is* something happening and existing within 32 bits |
| 14:25 | <@Rubidium> | Rhamphoryncus: ideas are easy to propose. However, finding the right way to implement that idea is something totally different. The idea of path signals is very simple, yet it required several attempts before having something workable |
| 14:26 | <@Rubidium> | so even when the idea is approved, it doesn't mean that a particuar implementation of that idea is going to get approved |
| 14:26 | <Jupix> | Alberth: also - what do you suggest? I go and hire someone? |
| 14:26 | <Jupix> | or someone else does so? |
| 14:27 | <Jupix> | or perhaps you suggest we should, as a community of artists, admit defeat and abandon the project? |
| 14:27 | <@Alberth> | Just start yourself is my usual answer, but I don't know if you did that already |
| 14:28 | <Rhamphoryncus> | Rubidium: yup. What I was thinking is a particular implementation could be approved for experimentation, meaning it's worth implementing, then it can be further evaluated when done |
| 14:30 | <Jupix> | Alberth: sadly, my talents are not in making graphics. if they were you can be damn sure I would be drawing. I've done something else to the best of my ability. in fact I think I've done a lot considering I'm at the same level as any other player |
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| 14:30 | <@Rubidium> | Rhamphoryncus: but then you've implemented it already, right? Problem is that you're only discovering many of the preconditions while doing the actual implementation which requires changing the implementation |
| 14:30 | <@Rubidium> | many things that are currently in trunk have gone through multiple iterations. Either in trunk, or before they got implemented |
| 14:30 | <Rhamphoryncus> | Rubidium: there's a lot that can be planned before attempting the real work |
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| 14:31 | <@Rubidium> | e.g. noai is the third (or maybe even fourth) generation AI solution |
| 14:31 | <Rhamphoryncus> | Such as scheduling. I've come up with a decent way to do it, but I don't want to deal with GUI or saving issues if it's not gonna be used |
| 14:32 | <Rhamphoryncus> | Yeah, but with AI it's clear you WANT a better AI. The general idea is accepted |
| 14:33 | <@Rubidium> | we want better scheduling |
| 14:33 | <@Rubidium> | general idea is approved ;) |
| 14:33 | <Rhamphoryncus> | heh |
| 14:34 | <andythenorth> | Jupix: without a pikka or a michael blunck or a purno or a danmack or a sanchimaru or a snail or a zephyris etc, it's not going anywhere |
| 14:34 | <andythenorth> | is my bet |
| 14:35 | <andythenorth> | projects need at least one person who contributes in excess to the others |
| 14:35 | <Rhamphoryncus> | Yeah, so the current system is I have to learn who has commit rights and can accept major patches, then ask them directly if it's worth doing. |
| 14:36 | <andythenorth> | 'community' projects universally fail in my experience |
| 14:36 | <Jupix> | andythenorth: I can only try and make it so that that person finds it compelling to start drawing |
| 14:36 | <andythenorth> | projects with communities tend to succeed |
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| 14:36 | <andythenorth> | Jupix: +1 |
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| 14:37 | <andythenorth> | 32bpp is beset with issues |
| 14:37 | <andythenorth> | such as - what is it? |
| 14:37 | * | andythenorth doesn't understand it |
| 14:37 | <Jupix> | read the paper |
| 14:39 | <Rhamphoryncus> | There's.. a paper? I wouldn't expect have expected that much design to be necessary just to bump the colour depth |
| 14:40 | * | andythenorth reads |
| 14:40 | <Jupix> | there may exist an issue with bad karma or something at this point. so no matter how well I document stuff, no matter how many sprites get drawn or how easy it is to set the game up, some people just won't care because once in the past there were problems that were important to that particular person |
| 14:40 | <andythenorth> | the paper is fine |
| 14:40 | <andythenorth> | what is 32bpp though? |
| 14:40 | <andythenorth> | it's confusing |
| 14:40 | <andythenorth> | it's cgi graphics? |
| 14:40 | <andythenorth> | is my understanding |
| 14:41 | <andythenorth> | and bigger |
| 14:41 | <Jupix> | it's an ecosystem of sprite drawing in lotsa colors and rez, for openttd |
| 14:41 | <andythenorth> | with cgi? |
| 14:41 | <andythenorth> | i.e rendered |
| 14:41 | <andythenorth> | not drawn |
| 14:41 | <Jupix> | yes |
| 14:41 | <andythenorth> | and bigger? |
| 14:41 | <Jupix> | as in pixels? |
| 14:41 | <andythenorth> | not 64px tiles |
| 14:41 | <andythenorth> | (for buildings etc) |
| 14:41 | <@Alberth> | Jupix: the only good reason to do something is because you want to do something. Not because you are any good at it |
| 14:42 | <Jupix> | andythenorth: the aim is to support all of it |
| 14:42 | <@Belugas> | wise man, Alberth :) |
| 14:42 | * | andythenorth mostly applies that rule |
| 14:42 | <@Alberth> | Belugas: I am good at make-believe :p |
| 14:42 | <andythenorth> | but being good makes winning easier |
| 14:42 | <@Belugas> | lol :D |
| 14:42 | * | andythenorth likes winning best |
| 14:42 | <andythenorth> | :P |
| 14:43 | <Jupix> | Alberth: I don't get on my two feet and jump out into space. even if I want to. because I know I can't. more to the point, if I were to start out in artistry, I know I would fail, because I don't have the eye for it |
| 14:43 | <andythenorth> | Jupix: so what's the overarching goal of 32bpp? |
| 14:43 | <andythenorth> | and if it's cgi, why not use free models? |
| 14:43 | <@Rubidium> | andythenorth: whom's goal? ;) |
| 14:44 | <andythenorth> | it seems the project is trvial, just find free models and render them? |
| 14:44 | <Jupix> | there are many goals |
| 14:44 | <andythenorth> | Rubidium: Jupix's goal |
| 14:44 | <Jupix> | some more distant than others |
| 14:44 | <@Alberth> | that is many - 1 too many |
| 14:44 | <andythenorth> | pick one |
| 14:44 | <andythenorth> | or primary, secondary, tertiary |
| 14:45 | <Jupix> | oh, my personal goal, my vision, is to have the game installer ask if the player wants our set to be installed, and if he so chooses, it gets done, and works outta box |
| 14:45 | <@Alberth> | Jupix: you cannot define 3d models? it's just a bunch of coordinates. Note that I did not say you have to be any good |
| 14:45 | <andythenorth> | and it looks like? |
| 14:46 | <Jupix> | andythenorth: huh? |
| 14:46 | <andythenorth> | i.e. style |
| 14:46 | <andythenorth> | is it rendered? |
| 14:46 | <andythenorth> | is it bigger? |
| 14:46 | <Jupix> | Alberth: I don't think I have to debate what constitutes art with you :p |
| 14:46 | <andythenorth> | does it have consistent palette |
| 14:46 | <andythenorth> | does it have consistent style for models? |
| 14:47 | <andythenorth> | for example, if you replaced toyland with lego-style stuff, you would have: |
| 14:47 | <andythenorth> | - consistent style |
| 14:47 | <andythenorth> | - consistent dimensions and shapes for models |
| 14:47 | <andythenorth> | - consistent palette (limit it) |
| 14:47 | <andythenorth> | which would become achievable |
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| 14:48 | <Jupix> | why ask me all these things when they are, in essence, answered in the 24-or-so page long paper you claim you read in 1 minute? |
| 14:48 | <andythenorth> | fair point |
| 14:49 | <Jupix> | also, did Zephyris etc. who started work on opengfx, know exactly how it turned out before they started work on it? |
| 14:49 | <@Terkhen> | andy likes to ask questions :P |
| 14:50 | <andythenorth> | Jupix: zephyris might be your best bet incidentally |
| 14:50 | <andythenorth> | he's prolific and likes cgi |
| 14:50 | <andythenorth> | but he's busy :( |
| 14:50 | <andythenorth> | with life |
| 14:50 | <Jupix> | I know |
| 14:50 | <Jupix> | it's been suggested |
| 14:50 | <Jupix> | haven't bothered him with it so far |
| 14:51 | <andythenorth> | the paper looks fine to me |
| 14:52 | <andythenorth> | if it was me trying to do this.... |
| 14:52 | <andythenorth> | I would |
| 14:52 | <andythenorth> | - get a project on the openttdcoop devzone |
| 14:52 | <andythenorth> | - convert the pdf to html |
| 14:52 | <andythenorth> | - start learning blender |
| 14:52 | <andythenorth> | - make whatever I could |
| 14:52 | <andythenorth> | - bug the devs to make 32bpp unconfusing |
| 14:52 | <andythenorth> | (it confuses me) |
| 14:52 | <andythenorth> | sometimes devs do the right thing |
| 14:53 | <andythenorth> | and sometimes they are blind to VERY IMPORTANT ISSUES |
| 14:53 | <andythenorth> | like newgrf control of smoke for ships : |
| 14:53 | <andythenorth> | :P |
| 14:53 | <andythenorth> | to name an example |
| 14:53 | <Rhamphoryncus> | Art and coding should be separate projects. Coding only requires placeholder graphics so you know it works. |
| 14:53 | <andythenorth> | that's a nice theory |
| 14:54 | <andythenorth> | I've tried it both sides |
| 14:54 | <andythenorth> | art | code separate works |
| 14:54 | <andythenorth> | art + code works |
| 14:54 | <andythenorth> | art + code produces a more cohesive result |
| 14:55 | <andythenorth> | but bizarrely, I think you get *more* reworking that way |
| 14:55 | * | Rhamphoryncus nods |
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| 14:55 | <andythenorth> | Jupix: looks to me like you're doing nearly everything right, apart from use of pdf etc which are minor |
| 14:56 | <andythenorth> | your unsolvable is lack of artist(s) |
| 14:56 | <andythenorth> | you have to pay, persuade, get lucky, or do it yourself |
| 14:56 | <Jupix> | get over the pdf, it says in the thread it was released in and I think in the pdf itself that if people find it fine it goes on the wiki |
| 14:57 | <andythenorth> | :) |
| 14:57 | <Jupix> | other than that, you're of course right |
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| 14:58 | <Jupix> | I'm hoping to achieve the center 2 |
| 14:58 | <andythenorth> | oh god |
| 14:58 | <andythenorth> | FIRS is nearly 3 |
| 14:58 | <Jogio> | good evening |
| 14:58 | <andythenorth> | Jan 27th 2009 |
| 14:58 | <andythenorth> | when will the fricking thing be done? :P |
| 15:00 | <@Alberth> | the main project owner is somewhat reluctant to declare the project finished perhaps? :p |
| 15:01 | <andythenorth> | the main project owner is ducking some issues |
| 15:01 | <andythenorth> | Jupix: FWIW, I had no idea about hex when I started coding newgrfs |
| 15:01 | <andythenorth> | and people here will confirm I have no eye for code :P |
| 15:04 | <Jupix> | you probably wouldn't believe how much time and energy I sink into the stuff I already do as far as administration. I'm not saying learning blender and how to model good-looking graphics would be too time-consuming, I'm saying, currently for me it would be simply impossible, given the time constraint of 24 hours per day |
| 15:04 | <andythenorth> | Jupix: do you have any children? |
| 15:04 | <Jupix> | thank god no, otherwise I wouldn't probably even be contributing :D |
| 15:05 | <Jupix> | minutes and hours are also only a part of it. defending the thing like this takes an emotional toll. it's funny how much drama an open-source project can generate. it's worse than relationships |
| 15:05 | <andythenorth> | I don't think you're defending here |
| 15:05 | <andythenorth> | I think you're advocating |
| 15:05 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
| 15:05 | * | andythenorth stumbles across this http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=763417#p763417 |
| 15:05 | <Jupix> | when devs and artists don't see eye to eye and I have to stand in the middle, I kinda get the worst of both parties, and none of the good stuff. except in the end if there is a product |
| 15:05 | <andythenorth> | which is better than the sucky cargo piles I drew in CHIPS |
| 15:06 | <andythenorth> | Jupix: that debate is easy |
| 15:06 | <andythenorth> | artists don't have commit rights |
| 15:06 | <andythenorth> | and as a group, they have a lousy track record getting anything done |
| 15:06 | <andythenorth> | the power relation is quite simple |
| 15:06 | <Jupix> | the power relation is pretty difficult when the ones in power abandon and deny power :) |
| 15:07 | <Rhamphoryncus> | With great power comes.. |
| 15:07 | <andythenorth> | I don't see them opening the repo or telling you to fork the project ;) |
| 15:07 | <@Alberth> | well, we cannot stop you from forking the project :p |
| 15:07 | <Jupix> | well, fortunately, I haven't been kicked out like that. I guess I've done something right then |
| 15:07 | <andythenorth> | you're just getting their usual level of meh :P |
| 15:08 | <andythenorth> | they don't even bother replying to most of my stuff now |
| 15:08 | <andythenorth> | so you at least get attention ;) |
| 15:08 | <Jupix> | oh, I love attention |
| 15:08 | <Jupix> | :) |
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| 15:08 | <@Alberth> | andythenorth: animated stockpiles? |
| 15:09 | <andythenorth> | well CHIPS shows varying cargo according to amount waiting |
| 15:09 | <Jupix> | anyway.. forking is out of the question. we've always been a community within a community, and I'm sad if I have to think of it as "them" instead of "us" |
| 15:09 | <Jupix> | it just wouldn't be the same |
| 15:09 | <@Alberth> | I also believe forking is not useful |
| 15:10 | <andythenorth> | it wouldn't work |
| 15:10 | <Jupix> | more than not useful I think it would be desctructive in more ways than one |
| 15:10 | <andythenorth> | there's no-one popped up who could maintain a fork for starters |
| 15:10 | <Jupix> | yep |
| 15:10 | <andythenorth> | it's immaterial - I only mentioned it because no-one has said 'why don't you fork?' |
| 15:10 | <@Alberth> | a true fork moves in a different direction, otherwise you just have a patchpack |
| 15:11 | <andythenorth> | which is another way of saying 'go away' |
| 15:12 | <Jupix> | ultimately, 99% of people doing 32bpp stuff wants what's best for openttd |
| 15:12 | <Jupix> | that's why no one's even suggested it |
| 15:12 | <Jupix> | within that subcommunity |
| 15:12 | <frosch123> | Jupix: did anyone ever measure the original 8bpp graphics for dimensions? |
| 15:12 | <Jupix> | dimensions as in...? |
| 15:13 | <Jupix> | metres? |
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| 15:13 | <@Alberth> | pixels would be my guess |
| 15:13 | <frosch123> | all 32bpp specs up to now always claimed those 12.5 meters per tile. independent how big that number is, i doubt ottd graphics are equally scaled in all directions |
| 15:14 | <Jupix> | well, we kinda had that discussion earlier |
| 15:14 | <Jupix> | that part of the spec comes almost verbatim from Ben R. |
| 15:14 | <frosch123> | i think in ottd all stuff is lower in height than in the horizontal directions |
| 15:14 | <Jupix> | he did a lot of research when he drew big sets of 32bpp stuff |
| 15:14 | <frosch123> | also, i see a lot of shadows in the images |
| 15:15 | <frosch123> | shadows are very problematic for the graphics engine which ottd has and will likely keep forever |
| 15:15 | <andythenorth> | unless you implement 3d :P |
| 15:15 | <frosch123> | so, a higher sun with as few shadow as possible would be more healthy |
| 15:15 | <Jupix> | hard to comment for me as I'm not a tech guy |
| 15:16 | <Jupix> | parts like that were Ben's and Eric's specialty |
| 15:16 | <Jupix> | now they're both away |
| 15:16 | <Jupix> | I have to make do with what info I have |
| 15:16 | <andythenorth> | just move the light higher in the rig |
| 15:16 | <andythenorth> | shadows need to stay within the tile boundary |
| 15:16 | <andythenorth> | does 32bpp support variable alpha? |
| 15:17 | <frosch123> | andythenorth: yes |
| 15:17 | <andythenorth> | isn't that a performance suck? |
| 15:17 | <Rhamphoryncus> | Rubidium: I assume I should allow my stuff and the old timetabling to coexist? |
| 15:17 | <frosch123> | andythenorth: yes, if there is much transparency |
| 15:17 | <andythenorth> | thought so |
| 15:18 | <frosch123> | 32bpp is a lot slower if you enable transparency |
| 15:18 | * | andythenorth is unconvinced by shadows |
| 15:18 | <Jupix> | andythenorth: I'd prefer you make a thread about that change in the 32bit forum and then we implement the change in the spec together after a concensus is reached |
| 15:18 | <frosch123> | (transparency is drawn using alpha in 32bpp) |
| 15:18 | <andythenorth> | fuck consensus :P |
| 15:18 | <andythenorth> | just dictate |
| 15:18 | <andythenorth> | :) |
| 15:18 | <Mazur> | andythenorth, never seen Babylon 5? |
| 15:18 | <andythenorth> | ho |
| 15:18 | <andythenorth> | ye |
| 15:18 | <Jupix> | andythenorth: sadly, I'm not in a position to dictate :) |
| 15:18 | <andythenorth> | rendered on an amiga |
| 15:18 | <andythenorth> | by dick van dyke's company iirc |
| 15:18 | <andythenorth> | how odd |
| 15:19 | <andythenorth> | Jupix: why not? |
| 15:19 | <andythenorth> | no minions? |
| 15:19 | * | andythenorth would suggest using advanced varaction 2 with the shadows as a separate layer |
| 15:19 | <andythenorth> | if done carefuly, it's fiddly but viable |
| 15:20 | <andythenorth> | then it's a global switch to turn them on and off |
| 15:20 | <andythenorth> | or does 33bpp just replace 8bpp sprites direcly? |
| 15:20 | <andythenorth> | or what? |
| 15:20 | <andythenorth> | I'm always baffled when it's discussed |
| 15:20 | <andythenorth> | people are making 32bpp newgrfs right? |
| 15:21 | <Jupix> | andythenorth: in a community-driven project I think rules like that have to gain respect by concensus if they're not already de facto. who's gonna respect a decision I make and document arbitrarily? it needs to be looked at and decided it's the best way, graphically and technically. only then will artists respect it, I think |
| 15:21 | <andythenorth> | that's why community projects suck |
| 15:21 | <andythenorth> | and they all fail |
| 15:22 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
| 15:22 | <andythenorth> | maybe 2CC set didn't |
| 15:22 | <Jupix> | I think there are examples to the contrary :) |
| 15:23 | <Jupix> | anyway |
| 15:23 | <andythenorth> | the only one I know of is 2CC set :) |
| 15:23 | <Jupix> | 32bit graphics tars replace sprites, yes |
| 15:23 | <andythenorth> | if you'd started making sprites 2 years ago, you'd be ~25% done? |
| 15:23 | <andythenorth> | instead of 0% done :) |
| 15:23 | <andythenorth> | then you'd be the clear project lead and everyone would have to listen to you, or replace you by being better :P |
| 15:24 | <Jupix> | anyone can replace my right now by being better |
| 15:24 | <andythenorth> | :) |
| 15:24 | <Jupix> | also, why would I want to be clear project lead? I don't have the time or the expertise |
| 15:24 | <andythenorth> | still 0% done though? |
| 15:24 | <Jupix> | well, 0% is an outright lie |
| 15:25 | <andythenorth> | what's shipped? |
| 15:25 | <Jupix> | the same amount what would've been shipped at 25% = no finished product |
| 15:25 | <Jupix> | your argument sounds like you will only be satisfied by 100% |
| 15:25 | <Jupix> | which is pretty difficult to defend against |
| 15:25 | <Elukka> | i'm not sure what you're doing but the best thing is probably to get some of it done |
| 15:26 | <Elukka> | everyone has ideas, a small fraction has stuff in game |
| 15:26 | <@Alberth> | and worse, people change direction constantly, it seems |
| 15:26 | <andythenorth> | Jupix: it is very irresponsible of me to keep asking you questions |
| 15:26 | <andythenorth> | it stops you learning blender :) |
| 15:27 | <Jupix> | tried it once. almost ripped my hair out :) |
| 15:27 | <Jupix> | also tried google sketchup which I believe zephyris used to some extent. didn't get past an empty slate |
| 15:27 | <andythenorth> | ok |
| 15:27 | <andythenorth> | I can't help further then |
| 15:27 | <andythenorth> | good luck |
| 15:28 | <andythenorth> | I would ask orudge to archive the 32bpp forums though, I think they damage any chance of success |
| 15:28 | <andythenorth> | I go in there about once a month and run away |
| 15:28 | <andythenorth> | it's a cluster fuck of idiots |
| 15:28 | <Jupix> | ... |
| 15:28 | <Jupix> | thx for the opinion |
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| 15:29 | <Jupix> | I might try to sell that as a project tagline. "clusterfuck of idiots" |
| 15:29 | <Jupix> | might lessen the drama |
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| 15:30 | <Jupix> | though interestingly, the drama is almost exclusively on this IRC channel. the forums are pretty enjoyable to browse and partake in. it's when I come here that I get the worse disses :D |
| 15:30 | <andythenorth> | :) |
| 15:31 | <Jupix> | also you might wanna pay that forum a visit briefly, because it got overhauled in the last month |
| 15:32 | <Jupix> | new stickies etc |
| 15:32 | <Jupix> | same idiots still though |
| 15:32 | <Jupix> | including me |
| 15:33 | <Rhamphoryncus> | Jupix: just need to get them to start breeding. He'll learn respect when he's overrun by the hordes ;) |
| 15:34 | <andythenorth> | Jupix: I find it all kind of sad |
| 15:34 | <andythenorth> | your doc is nice |
| 15:34 | <andythenorth> | afaik you've started collecting sprites and such |
| 15:34 | <andythenorth> | and you have the will to pursue this |
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| 15:35 | <andythenorth> | you can't even render a cube in sketchup or blender? |
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| 15:35 | * | andythenorth started drawing cubes |
| 15:36 | <andythenorth> | cubes become buildings |
| 15:37 | <Jupix> | well, I might give it another shot when the semester is over, just for the hell of it :D |
| 15:37 | <andythenorth> | in blender or whatever (never used blender) |
| 15:37 | <andythenorth> | I'd do: |
| 15:37 | <andythenorth> | cube -> cuboid |
| 15:37 | <andythenorth> | add triangle = roof |
| 15:37 | <andythenorth> | add cylinder, scale = chimney |
| 15:37 | <andythenorth> | hit whatever the 'render' icon looks like |
| 15:37 | <andythenorth> | post on the forum for bragging rights |
| 15:38 | <andythenorth> | although... |
| 15:38 | * | andythenorth is the 'just click buttons until something happens' type of person |
| 15:38 | <andythenorth> | as some here will have suffered through |
| 15:38 | <Jupix> | I'm more the "do it right the first time around" kind but I've been known to make mistakes on that |
| 15:39 | * | andythenorth should not be allowed to run a nuclear power plant |
| 15:39 | <andythenorth> | ever |
| 15:40 | <Elukka> | <Jupix> also tried google sketchup which I believe zephyris used to some extent. didn't get past an empty slate |
| 15:40 | <Elukka> | sketchup is pretty easy |
| 15:40 | <@peter1138> | cubicles? |
| 15:40 | <Elukka> | because it actually gives a shit about user friendliness |
| 15:40 | <Elukka> | unlike blender |
| 15:40 | <Elukka> | well i guess blender tries, they probably just don't have any good UI guys |
| 15:41 | <Jupix> | yeah that's why I tried it. heard it was intended for "every man's 3d modeler" for google earth. made sense to me so gave it a shot |
| 15:42 | <Jupix> | it might even have improved since then |
| 15:42 | <Jupix> | trouble is I don't think we have rendering presets for sketchup |
| 15:42 | <Jupix> | don't even know if that's possible |
| 15:43 | <Jupix> | it might be necessary to model in sketcup and render in blender |
| 15:46 | <Jupix> | or, you know, just make my own preset, the time issue is currently more pressing :P |
| 15:47 | <Mazur> | Does anyone have a colour palette with (just) the colours of the industry chain/minimap colour? |
| 15:47 | * | Mazur is attempting to make a chain map for FIRS. |
| 15:48 | <Mazur> | With the same colours used in OTTD. |
| 15:48 | <@Alberth> | grabbing a screenshot of the minimap legend would be the simplest perhaps |
| 15:48 | <Eddi|zuHause> | @calc 2147483648/616514480 |
| 15:48 | <@DorpsGek> | Eddi|zuHause: 3.48326554796 |
| 15:49 | <Eddi|zuHause> | weird number |
| 15:49 | <Eddi|zuHause> | @calc 2147483648/3.5 |
| 15:49 | <@DorpsGek> | Eddi|zuHause: 613566756.571 |
| 15:49 | <andythenorth> | Mazur: they're in a file in the repo |
| 15:49 | * | andythenorth looks |
| 15:49 | <@Alberth> | about 21.4 / 6.1 :) |
| 15:50 | <Eddi|zuHause> | @base 10 16 617923888 |
| 15:50 | <@DorpsGek> | Eddi|zuHause: 24D4C530 |
| 15:50 | <Eddi|zuHause> | @base 10 16 616514480 |
| 15:50 | <@DorpsGek> | Eddi|zuHause: 24BF43B0 |
| 15:52 | <andythenorth> | Mazur: correcting they're no longer in a file in the repo |
| 15:52 | <andythenorth> | sorry |
| 15:52 | <andythenorth> | you can find an old nfo version |
| 15:53 | <andythenorth> | http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/entry/sprites/nfo/colours.pnfo |
| 15:53 | <andythenorth> | not sure if anything's changed since the migration |
| 15:55 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
| 15:55 | <andythenorth> | nobody believes this until it happens to them, but until you have kids you really have no idea what "I have no time means" |
| 15:56 | <andythenorth> | unless you have sick family to care for or such |
| 15:56 | <andythenorth> | Belugas: true or false? ^^ |
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| 15:56 | <@Belugas> | he? |
| 15:56 | * | Belugas reads |
| 15:56 | * | Alberth believes andy |
| 15:57 | <@Belugas> | lol |
| 15:57 | <@Belugas> | yeah :) |
| 15:57 | <@Belugas> | and add a mom who is scared to death as soon as kiddo sneeze ;) |
| 15:57 | * | andythenorth has a sick newborn and a sick toddler right now :P |
| 15:57 | <Chris_Booth[ph]> | Belugas: It's mum |
| 16:01 | <@Belugas> | Thanks Chris_Booth[ph] |
| 16:01 | <@Belugas> | andythenorth, my sympathy. and my moral support too :) |
| 16:01 | <Chris_Booth[ph]> | Unless we are American and killing the English language |
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| 16:01 | <andythenorth> | or Indian |
| 16:02 | <andythenorth> | or Canadian |
| 16:02 | <andythenorth> | killing the English language? |
| 16:02 | * | andythenorth recommends Chris_Booth[ph] goes away |
| 16:03 | * | Chris_Booth[ph] doesn't listen |
| 16:04 | <Chris_Booth[ph]> | It's called English not Indian, American or Canadian |
| 16:05 | <Chris_Booth[ph]> | People who borrow it should use it properly |
| 16:05 | <andythenorth> | what about people who have it imposed upon them by colonisation? |
| 16:05 | <andythenorth> | so Belugas' kid has a mum? |
| 16:05 | <andythenorth> | or a mom? |
| 16:06 | <Chris_Booth[ph]> | Every kind has a mum |
| 16:06 | <andythenorth> | kind is german |
| 16:06 | <andythenorth> | don't kill the language |
| 16:06 | <Chris_Booth[ph]> | That wasn't me that was my iPhone |
| 16:06 | <Chris_Booth[ph]> | and stupid autocorrect |
| 16:07 | <andythenorth> | can we autcorrect Chris_Booth[ph] ? |
| 16:07 | <andythenorth> | maybe with /kick or such? |
| 16:07 | <Chris_Booth[ph]> | That wouldn't be very nice would it andythenorth |
| 16:08 | <andythenorth> | neither is correcting Belugas incorrectly |
| 16:08 | <andythenorth> | title doesn't say UK English |
| 16:08 | <@Alberth> | andy: sir B is very capable of defending himself :p |
| 16:09 | <Chris_Booth[ph]> | No it doesn't andy, but guess where English comes from? |
| 16:09 | <@Alberth> | America! |
| 16:10 | <@Rubidium> | Chris_Booth[ph]: amongst others the Netherlands and France ;) |
| 16:10 | <@Alberth> | or Canada :P |
| 16:10 | <andythenorth> | India |
| 16:10 | <andythenorth> | some arabic |
| 16:11 | <andythenorth> | some greek and latin |
| 16:11 | <andythenorth> | quite a lot of germanic |
| 16:11 | <andythenorth> | and some tiresome 'incorrect' borrowing of french in the 18th or 19th century |
| 16:11 | <andythenorth> | and some norse |
| 16:12 | <andythenorth> | and also some jamaican |
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| 16:19 | * | andythenorth wonders how sketchup works |
| 16:20 | <@Alberth> | red and slow? (like the stuff without 's') |
| 16:21 | <@Belugas> | [16:06] <Chris_Booth[ph]> That wasn't me that was my iPhone <-- ho.. nice... and I though you were intelligent... |
| 16:23 | <andythenorth> | needs a fricking admin password to install |
| 16:23 | <andythenorth> | lame |
| 16:24 | <supermop> | so i've been actually playing the game lately |
| 16:25 | <andythenorth> | sketchup has a crappy interface |
| 16:26 | <supermop> | use rhino |
| 16:26 | <andythenorth> | oh I see |
| 16:26 | <andythenorth> | it's polygons and extrude |
| 16:26 | <andythenorth> | ok |
| 16:26 | <andythenorth> | bored now |
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| 16:30 | <andythenorth> | what? |
| 16:30 | <andythenorth> | auto boolean? |
| 16:30 | <andythenorth> | madness |
| 16:30 | * | andythenorth quits sketchup |
| 16:31 | <Elukka> | it has its flaws and isn't very capable |
| 16:31 | <Elukka> | i think it's the only 3D modeler that cares one bit about friendliness to new users though |
| 16:32 | <Elukka> | the rest are all 'oh yeah this is really great if you invest three months into learning it' |
| 16:33 | * | Alberth has only used povray, where you define everything with hard-core 3D coordinates, rotations, and translations :) |
| 16:36 | <Elukka> | yeah that's about the very opposite of user friendly :p |
| 16:37 | <@Alberth> | depends on what you consider to be your users :p |
| 16:37 | <@Alberth> | but it'd be interesting to try another one as well to see how it works |
| 16:39 | <@Alberth> | Elukka: the problem with UI is that either it is easy, but you can't get it to do complicated things, or the UI is complicated for new users, but very powerful for advanced users |
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| 16:39 | <Elukka> | if you have good UI design it can be both easy for new users and powerful for advanced users |
| 16:40 | * | Alberth doesn't buy that |
| 16:40 | <@Alberth> | it means you have lots of customizations, which means no uniformity, which means difficult to grasp for new users |
| 16:41 | <@Alberth> | or you have lots of knobs and buttons where the newbie just gets lost |
| 16:41 | <Elukka> | the most obvious way is to have a basic toolset that doesn't include 50 obscure functions |
| 16:41 | <Elukka> | that have utterly meaningless names unless you have knowledge of them beforehand |
| 16:42 | <@Alberth> | but you do have them, so different people have different UI experiences, which are not easy to transfer between users |
| 16:44 | <Elukka> | if you were to design an ui that you didn't even try to make accessible because oh it's impossible anyway, then i'd say you were a bad ui designer ;P |
| 16:46 | <@Alberth> | for people that understand the 50 obscure functions, it is very usable, I think. |
| 16:47 | <Elukka> | don't you want new users? |
| 16:47 | <Elukka> | a bad ui doesn't mean it's impossible to use |
| 16:47 | <Elukka> | everything is somewhat usable |
| 16:47 | <Elukka> | it's still a bad ui though and it's less usable and less people will use it |
| 16:48 | <@Alberth> | you are perhaps not amongst that group, but that's a different issue |
| 16:48 | <@Alberth> | just like I cannot find my way in gimp. |
| 16:48 | <@Alberth> | that's not gimp's fault, it is because I don't use it enough, and I have not read the manual |
| 16:49 | <Elukka> | it is partially gimp's fault |
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| 16:50 | <@Alberth> | but there are a zillion bitmap editing programs in the "easier" market share. gimp aims for the more professional area |
| 16:52 | <@Alberth> | users that feel limited with the easier tools will eventually switch to the more powerful tools. Those users don't mind the effort to learn |
| 16:53 | <@Alberth> | since it makes them more productive |
| 16:54 | <Elukka> | more tools does not mean the basics of the program have to be more difficult to grasp |
| 16:54 | <Elukka> | have the basic tools |
| 16:54 | <Elukka> | make a "advanced tools" tickbox which adds more tools to the mix |
| 16:56 | <@Alberth> | Hmm, nasty. Finish one function only to discover you're missing three more functions :p |
| 16:57 | <@planetmaker> | good evening |
| 16:57 | <@Alberth> | good night to all :) |
| 16:57 | <Elukka> | if you already knew how to work it you'd have advanced tools turned on from the start |
| 16:58 | <Elukka> | if you don't, well, because the basic tools are logically and intuitively arranged and named, you'll figure the advanced ones out eventually |
| 16:58 | <@planetmaker> | 21:22 andythenorth: maybe 2CC set didn't <-- 2ccTS was not really community either. It had a strong lead by DJN and maybe earlier Purno |
| 16:58 | <@planetmaker> | thus coding and graphics |
| 16:58 | <@Terkhen> | good night |
| 16:58 | <@planetmaker> | it has and had a strong community to support it around this. |
| 16:59 | <@planetmaker> | But it basically re-inforces your statement that a project leads a strong lead of a person who actually *works* on it (code and graphics) |
| 16:59 | <@planetmaker> | And... as OpenGFX has no graphics person anymore... that's the whole reason I started to learn gimp |
| 16:59 | <@planetmaker> | That's why I actually invested the time to make the river sprites |
| 17:00 | <@planetmaker> | to beautify the factory, the food plant... |
| 17:00 | <@planetmaker> | these little things |
| 17:00 | <@planetmaker> | I'm not a great artists. But there's no-one whom this set can rely on continuously as artist. Anymore :-( |
| 17:00 | <@Alberth> | with good results, imho :) |
| 17:01 | <@planetmaker> | :-) |
| 17:01 | <@planetmaker> | it's amazing how much time it eats though |
| 17:01 | <@planetmaker> | Taught me something ;-) |
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| 17:02 | <@planetmaker> | And andy, Zephyris and irwe were not bad examples to look at. And andy's advice was very valuable, too |
| 17:02 | <@Alberth> | for me, the beauty is mostly that it is small, no zillion engines to chose from |
| 17:03 | <@Alberth> | planetmaker: that's why you post stuff, and that's how you learn, and get better :p |
| 17:03 | <@planetmaker> | yeah... I recently got offered sprites for early wagons. |
| 17:04 | <@planetmaker> | which is nice :-) |
| 17:04 | <Rhamphoryncus> | Is there a hard maximum on units lower than 2**16? |
| 17:04 | <@planetmaker> | 64000 |
| 17:04 | <@planetmaker> | exactly |
| 17:04 | <@planetmaker> | it's a const in the code |
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| 17:05 | <@planetmaker> | Apropos, Alberth: We now can have GUI in 1.5x zoom |
| 17:05 | <@planetmaker> | oh |
| 17:05 | <Rhamphoryncus> | I'm looking at math of units*(oldticks+newticks)/ticks, which means a temporary of 65 bits |
| 17:05 | <Rhamphoryncus> | planetmaker: thanks |
| 17:05 | <@planetmaker> | Rhamphoryncus: the 64k does not apply to ticks... |
| 17:05 | <@planetmaker> | I thought you meant vehicle count |
| 17:06 | <Rhamphoryncus> | planetmaker: ticks are 16 bits each. Adding two gives me 17 bits. Multiplying by units (which is 16 bits) gives me 33. Doh, said 65 above, meant 33. |
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| 17:07 | <@planetmaker> | hm... I might err. There might even be 2**20 bits reserved for vehicles (as in every single wagon etc) |
| 17:08 | <Rhamphoryncus> | Not a worry. My unit count is vehicles in the schedule, so those won't be included. |
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| 17:09 | <Wolf01> | 'night |
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| 17:10 | <Rhamphoryncus> | I just need to use a uint64 on my temporary. I could do funky stuff on the ticks to reduce them to 15 bits, but that'd limit the timetable duration to just over a year (down from 2.5 years). Not a comfortable margin. |
| 17:11 | <Eddi|zuHause> | ever heard of casting? |
| 17:12 | <Rhamphoryncus> | Them thar thing I'll use to have a uint64 temporary? :P |
| 17:12 | * | Belugas casts a spell of invisibililty on self |
| 17:12 | <@Belugas> | pooooof |
| 17:12 | <Rhamphoryncus> | Belugas: I attempt to disbelieve! |
| 17:12 | <@DorpsGek> | Hoo... I don't see Belugas anymore |
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| 17:17 | <andythenorth> | planetmaker: wrt 'community' sets... |
| 17:17 | <@planetmaker> | yes? |
| 17:17 | <andythenorth> | they're a bit like people who build lego sets |
| 17:17 | <andythenorth> | it's a 'community' because they're all engaged in the same activity |
| 17:17 | <andythenorth> | using similar set of parts |
| 17:17 | <@planetmaker> | yes |
| 17:17 | <andythenorth> | but it's not really a project |
| 17:18 | <@planetmaker> | well... it can be a project. |
| 17:18 | <@planetmaker> | After all OpenTTD itself is also a "community project" |
| 17:18 | <Rhamphoryncus> | Uh oh. I think I'm getting too casual with my pseudocode when I start ending lines with periods |
| 17:18 | <andythenorth> | nah |
| 17:18 | <andythenorth> | it's a project with a community |
| 17:18 | <@planetmaker> | And the same is true for OpenGFX, and also in a way sets like ECS, FIRS, etc |
| 17:19 | <@planetmaker> | yes, it depends on how you define "community project", I guess |
| 17:19 | <andythenorth> | indeed |
| 17:19 | <andythenorth> | I usually see it associated with 'fail' |
| 17:19 | <@planetmaker> | but what you cannot do is outsource responsibility |
| 17:19 | <andythenorth> | the lego analogy probably works, but I'd need to refine it :P |
| 17:21 | <@planetmaker> | someone, noone and everyone's project: someone wanted to do something, everybody wanted a say in it and nobody the responsibility to actually do and decide something |
| 17:21 | <@planetmaker> | that is fail |
| 17:21 | <@Yexo> | if you set up a community project as a project that should be done by a community you're bound to fail. A project done by one (or a few people) with a community behind it as support will be fine |
| 17:23 | <@planetmaker> | and that will even be better off than a one-person project |
| 17:23 | <@planetmaker> | often. As some *work* can be outsourced. But not the responsibility |
| 17:25 | <@Yexo> | eventually the responsibility can be shared between multiple people, but never over the complete community |
| 17:25 | <@planetmaker> | yes, sure |
| 17:25 | <andythenorth> | responsibility has to vest |
| 17:25 | <@planetmaker> | it can also be passed on |
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| 17:30 | <CIA-1> | OpenTTD: frosch * r23848 /trunk/src/vehicle_cmd.cpp: -Fix: Even if A == B, A can make more sense than B. |
| 17:31 | <andythenorth> | sounds like first year philosophy lecture ^ |
| 17:31 | <andythenorth> | philosophy is probably just compsci in disguise no? |
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| 17:34 | <andythenorth> | Jupix: I rescind my advice about just getting started with Sketchup |
| 17:34 | <andythenorth> | it's a PITA |
| 17:35 | * | andythenorth is too lazy to persevere |
| 17:39 | <andythenorth> | but also -> bed |
| 17:39 | <andythenorth> | goodnight |
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| 17:39 | <@Rubidium> | good idea andy ;) |
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| 18:07 | <cypher> | Hi. Is it possible to change server settings during multiplayer? I'm thinking station spread... |
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| 18:10 | <cypher> | Nobody? :( |
| 18:11 | <Eddi|zuHause> | cypher: lots of settings cannot be changed, others can |
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| 18:12 | <cypher> | Eddi|zuHause : and which one is this? When I save that game, load it on my localhost and then chage the station spread, it works (locally). When we stop the server and change the station spread, it doesn't work. Could it be done somehow? |
| 18:12 | <Eddi|zuHause> | how should i know? |
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| 18:13 | <cypher> | Well I thought since you started answering... |
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| 18:13 | <Eddi|zuHause> | you can, obviously, upload your locally changed game to the server |
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| 18:13 | <cypher> | That I will try. |
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| 21:02 | <Eddi|zuHause> | we *really* need to increase the default timeouts |
| 21:06 | <Eddi|zuHause> | also, we need a "connection timed out" error message |
| 21:08 | <Asteconn> | 480 is pretty generous in my view |
| 21:08 | <Asteconn> | Also - in the UKRS - what do brake vans do? Or are they just eyecandy? |
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| 21:11 | <Eddi|zuHause> | afaik early trains need them, if they reach a certain length |
| 21:15 | <Asteconn> | Ah righty |
| 21:15 | <Asteconn> | You wouldn't happen to know what length would you? |
| 21:15 | <Eddi|zuHause> | no |
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| 21:16 | <Asteconn> | Righto |
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| 21:23 | <Asteconn> | Is it usually this quiet in here? o.ô Or is everyone just idling because they're playing TTD? =3 |
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| 21:30 | <Eddi|zuHause> | it is usually that quiet at 3:30 AM |
| 21:34 | <Asteconn> | Most of the populace European? |
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| 21:57 | <Asteconn> | What are everyone's preferred GRFs then? |
| 22:03 | <Rhamphoryncus> | Only one I use consistently is trams |
| 22:03 | <Rhamphoryncus> | And there's several of those. Dunno which ones are the good ones ;) |
| 22:04 | <kais58> | my server runs OpenGFX+ |
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| 22:07 | <Asteconn> | I've never managed to get OpenGFX+ to work actually |
| 22:07 | <Asteconn> | Question marks everywhere D: |
| 22:10 | <Asteconn> | As I cannot remember off hand, does UKRS include any 3rd rail stuff? |
| 22:16 | <Asteconn> | And another odd question: why are some of my trains of the same sort in slightly different liveries? |
| 22:17 | <Asteconn> | I have 4 Brush type 4s sporting 2 different paint jobs |
| 22:19 | <Rhamphoryncus> | Some newgrf sets randomly select different appearances |
| 22:19 | <Rhamphoryncus> | I've only noticed it for horse-drawn buses, but I'm sure it could be done for other vehicles |
| 22:21 | <Asteconn> | Ahhh righty! Awesome |
| 22:29 | <Rhamphoryncus> | Is there any existing/cheap way to tell if a vehicle is at a station loading/waiting on the timetable? I'm hesitant to loop over all the vehicles every time I do an update (potentially once a tick, for a very busy route) |
| 22:34 | <Rhamphoryncus> | I could keep a running count, but then I'd have to track down all the ways a vehicle can change what it's doing.. |
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| --- | Log | closed Wed Jan 25 00:00:41 2012 |
