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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-01-25

---Logopened Wed Jan 25 00:00:41 2012
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01:11<@Rubidium>Jupix: did you actually see http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=989890#p989890 ? Me being worried about the size and such, next post basically saying "I don't care, I'm just doing what I want to do"
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02:00<shoehorn>are there any devs around?
02:06<@planetmaker>@topic get -3
02:06<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: Don't ask to ask, just ask
02:06<@planetmaker>moin
02:06<Mazur>Hi, Planny.
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03:55<dihedral>good morning
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08:35<Jupix>Rubidium: it's his prototype, you shouldn't take it so seriously, nor label the whole of 32bpp under what he does
08:36<Jupix>people experiment with stuff, doesn't mean they expect others to adapt their ways to that experiment
08:40<Jupix>but! it's good that you posted there
08:43<lugo>ehm, what's the limit in size for forum attachments? nothing in the faq?
08:44<lugo>"hallo erstmal"
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09:12<@planetmaker>lugo, iirc around 5 or 6 MByte. But don't take my word on it.
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09:18<Jupix>planetmaker: http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=154916 - your comments on chapter 7.5?
09:20<@planetmaker>I'll have a look tonight
09:21<Jupix>ok
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09:41<+michi_cc>Jupix: I would avoid calling the zoom levels z0, z1 and z2 where possible, as that nomenclature is bound to fail as soon as there is e.g. a x8 or a x1.5 or whatever, and doesn't cover zoom-out either.
09:42<@Rubidium>I think o2, o4, o8, i2, i4 are what peter1138 thought of
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09:47<Jupix>that's a really quick rename if/when there is ez sprite loading, for now it's a lot less confusing to stick with the existing naming convention that works with geektoo's patch
09:48<Jupix>again I fail at inline editing
09:49<Jupix>I meant to say when there is ez sprite loading in trunk and there is a naming convention for those sprites
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11:56<@planetmaker>Jupix: and what are those "512 x 512 pixels" you talk in section 7.5 about?
11:56<@planetmaker>A tile in OpenTTD is never square and never has equal extend. And if you count pixels on a diagonal line... how do you count them?
11:56<@planetmaker>Especially if it's not 45° wrt the screen but... like 30°?
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12:19<__ln__>"Kassel, the only East German city in the west"
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12:25<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: that isn't really funny if you have no context
12:28<__ln__>no particular context was expressed by the person who said that
12:29<__ln__>so i typed it here to find out if anyone knows why :)
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12:45<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: well, you can make such a statement about any city
12:45<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: and after you've made up the statement out of thin air, you make up a statistic that founds it...
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12:47<__ln__>soon enough that statement will be found with a google search in openttd logs, which consequently proves the statement.
12:48<@planetmaker>Jupix: to give you an idea of what _I_ think the paper should look like: http://wiki.openttd.org/About_32bpp
12:48<@planetmaker>note the many omissions I made
12:48<__ln__>this was the only context: http://www.zur-marbachshoehe.de/
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12:49<@planetmaker>hm... that was intended to be under my own user pages there...
12:50<@planetmaker>http://wiki.openttd.org/Planetmaker/About_32bpp <-- there
12:54*appe delivers poop on random doorstep.
13:01<cypher>I hate the regional investigator! He's a complete jackass!
13:18<xiong>__ln__, Perhaps you should insert the statement into Wikipedia, citing openttd. Then it will become a Known Fact.
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13:22<@peter1138>hmm
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13:23<@peter1138>Jupix, tar format for 32bpp might not even remain ;p
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13:23<Jupix>oh, I expect it to go away
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13:25<@peter1138>what do you anticipate in its place?
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13:26<Jupix>base set and newgrf's on top of it
13:27<@Terkhen>hello
13:29<Jupix>planetmaker: I like the "what this project is not" part
13:29<@planetmaker>@logs
13:29<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: http://irclogs.qmsk.net/channels/openttd
13:31<Eddi|zuHause>Jupix: not-goals are a very important part of a design process
13:31<Jupix>I think in a couple days I'll be withdrawing my proposal and having to think whether to work a new pretty drastically new one
13:31<Jupix>s/new/different
13:32<Jupix>the vote is heavily against
13:32<@planetmaker>it's mixing different things
13:32<@planetmaker>- graphics guidelines
13:32<@planetmaker>- project organisation
13:32<@planetmaker>- 32bpp implementation in a (broken) patch
13:33<@planetmaker>- future OpenTTD implementation and speculative details for that
13:33<@planetmaker>- dictionary of terms
13:33<@planetmaker>- basesets vs. newgrfs
13:34<Aygar>There is a bug in the doxygen documentation generation of the source; under what category should I file the bug report?
13:34<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23849 /trunk/src/order_cmd.cpp:
13:34<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Fix [FS#5008]: when the network is lagging, you try to copy a vehicle's order
13:34<CIA-1>OpenTTD: but accidentally create a station order and then copy the vehicle's order
13:34<CIA-1>OpenTTD: (before the first command is executed) one could trigger an assertion from the
13:34<CIA-1>OpenTTD: pool. Simplify the ancient code and make it more fool proof, even though it
13:34<CIA-1>OpenTTD: could stop copying a vehicle's orders slightly earlier than it would now... but
13:34<@planetmaker>- oh, and a history section
13:34<CIA-1>OpenTTD: who has come near that limit and really needed that many orders?
13:34<Jupix>planetmaker: your point?
13:35<@planetmaker>it's a vote on a somewhat fuzzy vision. Mixed with some more or less technical details where some matter and some don't
13:35<@planetmaker>the point is: not a good thing to vote on as a whole
13:36<@Rubidium>but the vote doesn't tell why they are against it, right?
13:36<@planetmaker>some might need discussion or agreement. Some just need be followed by the person who actually codes the thing
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13:36<@Rubidium>maybe they are against it because it doesn't contain "curved corners"?
13:37<@planetmaker>And IMHO the goal "32bpp blender files with GPL license" needs not a vote really.
13:37<Jupix>Rubidium: some people posted what they thought was wrong, and some of those I tried to fix. whether those were the "no" votes I don't know
13:38<Jupix>planetmaker: it's the vision of the people mentioned in the first chapters ... whether it's fuzzy or not, I'd say no, you say yes, so I don't know
13:39<Jupix>planetmaker: I think it's all relevant and there's a lot of confusion in all those things you listed, so that's why they're touched upon
13:39<@planetmaker>the vision may not be fuzzy. But it's not... what you can vote on
13:39<@planetmaker>or shouldn't
13:39<@Rubidium>I'm not sure whether everything should be "drawn" as blenders. I can easily imaging that drawing the rail by hand is easier
13:39<Jupix>Rubidium: that's taken into account
13:39<@planetmaker>how?
13:39<@planetmaker>where?
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13:40<Jupix>in the de facto "official" process :D
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13:40<Jupix>so nowhere, since my proposal didn't pass
13:41<Jupix>IIRC the ground tiles were all photoshop
13:41<Jupix>the sources not being blender models or such is taken into account in the definition of sources
13:42<Jupix>though the definition of sources is in that spec which didn't pass
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13:44<Jupix>I'm a bit burnt out from working the latest 4 revisions. as far as I'm concerned all of it is probably going on a back burner for a while and someone else can do what they want
13:45<Jupix>you could just instate your proposal immediately since you have dev status :P
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r23850 /trunk/src/lang/ (french.txt polish.txt portuguese.txt):
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: french - 28 changes by OliTTD
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: polish - 3 changes by wojteks86
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: portuguese - 55 changes by JayCity
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13:50<@planetmaker>Jupix: where does that change anything? And... what I wrote is imho the essence of what you wrote. So nothing new. Just cut down to what _I_ think is the important core
13:50<@planetmaker>without any distractions and side tracks
13:51<@Alberth>evening pm
13:51<Jupix>do you agree with its content?
13:52<Jupix>I'm in a lag nightmare
13:52<Jupix>...
13:52<@planetmaker>I agree to what I extracted from it ;-)
13:52<Jupix>yes I mean the content of what you put on the wiki
13:53<@planetmaker>That's why I wrote it.
13:54<@planetmaker>it's not nicely written. just in 10 minutes or so
13:54<@planetmaker>so it will have it's rough edges
13:55<frosch123>planetmaker: maybe add a sentence to "scale", that scale may not even be consistent within the same object
13:55<frosch123>i.e. horizontal scale vs. vertical scale
13:55<@planetmaker>good point. Though I meant that, it should be explicit
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13:57<@planetmaker>like now, frosch123?
13:58<@peter1138>pom te pom
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14:00<frosch123>:)
14:01<Jupix>planetmaker: my IRC shell is basically unusable right now due to lag, but I'm just gonna say you should set whatever you have there as "official" due to your developerness and because few else seem to care to do it
14:01<Jupix>stuff like how it's laid out is secondary to the content
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14:05<Jupix>it appears very different to what I had and I can't read it completely at this mo to find out what content there is from my proposal. if it's similar, good, because I thought the content of mine was for the best, if it's different, so be it
14:06<Jupix>I'll read it word by word tomorrow or friday
14:07<@planetmaker>I really think we want the same thing. The only difference might be that we have a slightly different view how to go there
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14:08<andythenorth>efening
14:08<@planetmaker>hi andythenorth
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14:08<andythenorth>what is today's discussion / argument / monologue?
14:09<cypher>Just wondering if there's any production limit on industries... http://i40.tinypic.com/x58181.png
14:09<@Alberth>there is
14:10<@Alberth>andythenorth: you usually take care of the 'monologue' part :p
14:10<cypher>Alberth : and what that production limit may be exactly?
14:11<@Alberth>around 27,000
14:11<@planetmaker>255*8 or *9
14:11<@planetmaker>depends on month
14:12<andythenorth>Jupix: I'm gonna have to ask you for those TPS reports
14:12<cypher>planetmaker 255*9? Look at the screenshot...
14:12<cypher>Alberth : what happens if the industry should produce more and hits the limit?
14:12<@Alberth>cypher: scaled by the unit of production
14:13<@planetmaker>cypher: and what about the screenshot? What shall I notice?
14:13<cypher>10K production, which in my opinion is a bit more than 255*9. I'm just wondering what would happen.
14:13<@Alberth>cypher: no idea, I never got further than a few 1,000 uints
14:13<cypher>:(
14:14<@Alberth>but the system just won't transfer cargo any faster
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14:14<@planetmaker>cypher: yes. It's a secondary industry. There more is feasible
14:14<@planetmaker>maybe not more than 2**16
14:14<cypher>Oh.
14:14<@Alberth>so likely it is not accepted or it is stockpiled
14:14<@planetmaker>I'd have to look at the code to be sure
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14:15<@planetmaker>Alberth: it's a default industry... so all is accepted
14:15<@Alberth>ok, so it goes up in smoke then :)
14:15<@planetmaker>and immediately processed
14:15<@planetmaker>I hope the sawmill doesn't produce too much smoke, though ;-)
14:15<cypher>Alberth : it will transfer faster. There is no stockpiling that can't be solved by buying a few gazillion ships ships.
14:15<@Alberth>planetmaker: until you bring more than the limit
14:15<cypher>planetmaker : what? :D
14:16<@Alberth>afaik something like 255 units every tick or so
14:16<@planetmaker>cypher: let me find you a game with saw mills...
14:16<@planetmaker>@calc 255*8
14:16<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 2040
14:16<cypher>So you're concerned about the amount of smoke from the sawmill, but didn't even notice that riddiculous pile of ships in the top left corner.
14:17<@Alberth>planetmaker: multiplied by the unit of cargo perhaps?
14:17<@planetmaker>no. the unit of wood is 1
14:17<@planetmaker>and of goods at most 2
14:17<@planetmaker>but might be 1, too
14:17<@planetmaker>but it's production upon delivery
14:17<frosch123>iirc for secondary industries the max production is also affected by the number of tiles the industry has
14:17<@Alberth>diamonds seem to be units of 16?
14:17<@planetmaker>thus... it might simply not be limited
14:17<frosch123>(something completely weird actually)
14:18<cypher>frosch123 : is there any docs about how exactly this works?
14:18<@Alberth>print the source code :)
14:18<andythenorth>@calc 55536 * 9
14:18<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 499824
14:18<andythenorth>@calc 65536 * 9
14:18<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 589824
14:18<frosch123>255 units * number of tiles * 9
14:18<frosch123>per month
14:19<andythenorth>wtf?
14:19<Rhamphoryncus>Huh. Why is a day 74 ticks rather than 72?
14:19*andythenorth missed that bit of the original industry code :o
14:19<@Alberth>Rhamphoryncus: we borrowed 2
14:19<Rhamphoryncus>Alberth: huh?
14:19<@Alberth>@calc 27000 / (9*255)
14:19<@DorpsGek>Alberth: 11.7647058824
14:19<@planetmaker>cypher: check out this savegame: http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/PublicServer:Archive_-_Games_171_-_180#gameid_176
14:19<frosch123>@calc 65536 / 74
14:19<@DorpsGek>frosch123: 885.621621622
14:20<@Alberth>@calc 27000 / 74
14:20<@DorpsGek>Alberth: 364.864864865
14:20<@planetmaker>there's a max. And we needed 6 sawmills to reach 100k
14:20<@planetmaker>but they were sufficient ;-)
14:20<frosch123>the limit is TransportIndustryGoods
14:21<cypher>planetmaker : missing files, and they won't autodownload :(
14:22<@planetmaker>yes... http://www.openttdcoop.org/wiki/GRF <-- it uses some old NewGRFs
14:26<@Rubidium>@base 10 16 885
14:26<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: 375
14:26<@Rubidium>@base 10 16 74
14:26<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: 4A
14:26<@Rubidium>he probably lived on 4A ;)
14:26<cypher>planetmaker : this is the most riddiculous thing i have ever seen in OpenTTD.
14:26<@planetmaker>:-)
14:27<@planetmaker>goal: transport 100k goods. We made it ;-)
14:27<cypher>I mean... is that still a game? :D
14:27<@planetmaker>well, yes, it's fun :-)
14:28<@planetmaker>we have there also other games... like game #200 or 201 are... a bit extreme, too
14:28<@planetmaker>#openttdcoop Records: Clients: 26 | Trains: 2666 (PSG#219) - 2522 (PZG#5) - ( 3000 (PSG#180) logic net) | Single cargo type output: 200,169 (PZG#13) | World Pop: 6,150,671 (PSG#201)
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14:30<@Alberth>cypher: that's what openttdcoop does, build extreme setups and other weird things. You should read their website :)
14:31<@planetmaker>:-P
14:31<cypher>Alberth : I'm not sure that I want to :-D
14:31<@planetmaker>You can (maybe) get back your sanity at the exit :-P
14:32<@Alberth>they have quite useful techniques for doing things in a network, like handling priority at a junction
14:32<@planetmaker>But in reality we just love to build together big train networks. Thus we agree on a common plan. And then build it
14:32<@planetmaker>And yes, we might use some advanced techniques. Which could also sometimes pass as cheating the path finder ;-)
14:33<@Alberth>or make large terminus stations with good performance
14:35<@planetmaker>yeah. That's... a tricky thing. A nice challenge :-)
14:36<@planetmaker>My personally favourite game style is a regional setup: one, two handful of regions with their local networks. They bring passengers to a hub central to each region. They then connected by a high-capacity intercity network
14:36<@planetmaker>makes good building for many. Different people can build different styles of local networks
14:36<@planetmaker>But it's still all one big picture :-)
14:37<@planetmaker>And it allows to compare different building techniques nicely how they perform under (heavy) load
14:37<Eddi|zuHause>hm... trying to encode the turning states in the sprite is difficult...
14:37<Rhamphoryncus>Alberth: I don't understand 27000 related to. In fact, it appears that nothing would even notice if I changed DAY_TICKS to 24. The only possible problem is I'd have to change the 885 multiplier in newgrf.cpp, and they could conceivably be dependant on it being a multiple of 885.
14:37<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: animation frame?
14:37<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: no.
14:38<cypher>planetmaker : just saw game 201. One thing is that it almost crashed my computer.
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14:39<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: assume two wood wagons, one is already turned, the other is not. if the wood spans two wagons, both wagons must be coded as one sprite
14:39<cypher>Second thing is, I now conclude that you guys are weird.
14:39<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: sounds like fun :) :P
14:40<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: another example is the early prussian electrics, which consist of three very short parts, which would be difficult as single parts
14:40<andythenorth>did I mention that I think you're insane?
14:41<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I think you're insane
14:41<@planetmaker>cypher: both may well be true ;-)
14:41<andythenorth>there, done
14:41<Eddi|zuHause>did i mention that i think i'm insane?
14:41<Rhamphoryncus>I'm definitely insane
14:43<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause, Rhamphoryncus: as insane as thinking you are a bot?
14:43<Rhamphoryncus>Who says I'm not?
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>DorpsGek: almost :)
14:44*Rhamphoryncus hums boten anna
14:44<@DorpsGek>Rhamphoryncus: i can smell bots
14:44<Rhamphoryncus>How's my odour? Am I pungent enough?
14:49<Eddi|zuHause>HA... IT HAPPENED. german government party CDU uses Megaupload to justify a SOPA-like law
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15:02<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: if only governments supported a SOHA-like law (stop online hypocracy act)
15:03<@Rubidium>e.g. be punished for saying a particular application is totally ruining your profit, while (still) distributing said application for many years
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15:19<@Belugas>hoo... BestBuy has a flyer announcing Asus Tranformer Prime
15:21<frosch123>hmm, am i too young or to old to not know what that is?
15:21<@planetmaker>probably you live on the wrong continent. I've no clue either. But then... our age is not grossly different ;-)
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15:23<@Rubidium>isn't that just some new computer or so?
15:25<andythenorth>when will newgrf smoke be done?
15:25<frosch123>when you add fire to it
15:26<andythenorth>frosch123: you had a spec
15:26<andythenorth>somewhere
15:26<andythenorth>why don't you rummage for it>
15:26<andythenorth>?
15:27<XeryusTC>https://secure.avaaz.org/en/eu_save_the_internet/ <- i´ll just leave that here
15:27<frosch123>i don't think i had a spec for smoke :)
15:27<andythenorth>gah
15:27<andythenorth>avaz
15:27*andythenorth rummages
15:27<andythenorth>http://bugs.openttd.org/task/4263
15:27<andythenorth>'spec' is approximate term
15:28<andythenorth>I think it died because (as happens) it became over complicated
15:28<andythenorth>e.g. 'need' for newgrf effect vehicles, 'need' to replace industry smoke with this etc
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15:29<frosch123>andythenorth: newgrf smoke vehicles were already planned 7 years ago :p
15:29<Eddi|zuHause>can't be that hard...
15:29<andythenorth>so was world peace :)
15:30<andythenorth>newgrf smoke vehicles are overkill
15:30<andythenorth>maybe Eddi|zuHause could use them to draw logs for vehicles though
15:30<frosch123>the specs still state that livery overriding an engine with itself can be used to specify helicopter rotos and later visual effects :p
15:30<andythenorth>they *will* be abused :P
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15:31<andythenorth>how about something simpler?
15:31<Eddi|zuHause>could be used for sails
15:31<andythenorth>could be used to composite sprites for vehicles like ships
15:31<andythenorth>providing cargo sprites for example
15:31<andythenorth>single-tick animation cycle
15:31<andythenorth>not a good idea
15:32<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: but the wind always comes from the same direction, so you van draw sails statically
15:32<@Alberth>*can
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15:33<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: but then you need to repeat the sail animation for each loading stage and cargo
15:34<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: same argument could be used to make rotors "static"
15:34<andythenorth>hmm
15:34<andythenorth>I could fix ship smoke by drawing it into the sprites
15:34<andythenorth>probably more likely to succeed
15:34<andythenorth>let's see
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15:37<andythenorth>6 smoke sprites
15:38<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: that'll fail on turning
15:38<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I can handle that
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15:38<andythenorth>@calc 6 * 4
15:38<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 24
15:38<andythenorth>how many speed states should I provide?
15:38<andythenorth>slow / fast?
15:39<andythenorth>slow / medium / fast?
15:39<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: how do you want to ensure the already-emitted smoke stays in place when the ship turns?
15:39<andythenorth>draw it
15:39<andythenorth>store the previous angle
15:39-!-cmircea [~cmircea@79.117.181.188] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:39<andythenorth>no
15:40<andythenorth>255 animation frames available?
15:40<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: and moving when the ship accelerates?
15:40<andythenorth>change the distance the smoke sprite is drawn at
15:40<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: this is the point where i tell you that you're insane?
15:40<andythenorth>how many angle-specific sprites do I need?
15:40<andythenorth>8?
15:40<andythenorth>hmm
15:40<andythenorth>what if the ship turns, then turns again?
15:41<andythenorth>that's a harder case
15:41<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: there's NO way that this will ever work
15:41<andythenorth>what choice is there?
15:41<andythenorth>(1) do nothing :)
15:42<andythenorth>(2) do this :)
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: have you considered just emitting smoke from one chimney?
15:42<andythenorth>yes
15:42<andythenorth>it fails
15:42<andythenorth>no z index
15:42<andythenorth>is at least one of the problems
15:42<andythenorth>the code can handle a z index btw, I tested
15:43<Eddi|zuHause>so why not fix that first?
15:43<andythenorth>because it was decided already that ad-hoc fixes won't be used for this
15:43<andythenorth>a full newgrf-effect-vehicles spec is needed
15:43<andythenorth>to avoid potential future cruft
15:44<Eddi|zuHause>sure, a spec, but that doesn't mean that all of it has to be implemented at once
15:44<andythenorth>e.g. the case was let's not build hysterical raisins
15:45<andythenorth>are you sure It won't work in pure sprites?
15:45<andythenorth>I'm not doing load sprites in FISH
15:45<andythenorth>so I have 4 sprites for ships moving, 8 angles, 6 smoke sprites, and 8 'ship turned' angles to encode
15:46<andythenorth>@calc 4*8*6*8
15:46<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 1536
15:46<andythenorth>if GIMP scripting could be figured out, it might be possible to automate that
15:46<andythenorth>@1536 / 8
15:46<andythenorth>@calc 1536 /8
15:46<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 192
15:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23851 /trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp: -Fix: infrastructure cache could get out of sync when overbuilding a drive through road stop
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15:47<andythenorth>I currently have 12 sprite rows per ship
15:47<andythenorth>192 isn't that many more
15:47<andythenorth>I can probably write a code generator or templating to handle the nfo
15:48<Eddi|zuHause>thanks, i'll have nightmares about this now...
15:48<andythenorth>if you solve logs, you could patch HEQS logging trucks :P
15:52<andythenorth>if gimp scripting can be figured out, we could avoid touching the smoke code at all
15:52<andythenorth>hmm
15:52<andythenorth>or PIL
15:52<@planetmaker>gimp scripting is not terribly difficult
15:53<@planetmaker>let's say... I use it
15:53<@planetmaker>to export the proper sprites
15:53<andythenorth>if the vehicle + all cargos are in one png, we could simply duplicate the png for each animation frame needed
15:53<andythenorth>we need to feed it the co-ordinates to place smoke at for each angle of the vehicle
15:53<andythenorth>so we'd have vehicle_smoke_frame_1.png, vehicle_smoke_frame_2.png etc
15:54<@planetmaker>just make a separate layer where the smoke is adjusted relative to the vehicle
15:54<andythenorth>I'd want to script it
15:54<@planetmaker>and then it's a solved problem
15:54<andythenorth>doing it by hand is a bit insane
15:54<andythenorth>and scripting it makes it available to all sets
15:54<andythenorth>it would be better to solve this in code
15:54<@planetmaker>no. Only those which use the exact template
15:55<@planetmaker>and then they could just as well use the same 4 layers of slightly shifted smoke
15:55<@planetmaker>and those smoke layers could be overlayed onto each vehicle, of course
15:55<andythenorth>hmm
15:56<andythenorth>we could open multiple files and merge them
15:56<@planetmaker>though I think that's a very bad solution to do it that way
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15:56<@planetmaker>like adding smoke vehicle-side
15:56<andythenorth>it's viable though
15:57<andythenorth>is it worth it?
15:57<andythenorth>I wouldn't find it fun to do tbh
15:58<Rhamphoryncus>Is there an easy way to print out a destination name for debugging?
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16:03<andythenorth>hm
16:04*andythenorth tests
16:04<andythenorth>the smoke will move with the vehicle
16:04<andythenorth>this is sub-optimal
16:04<Eddi|zuHause>Rhamphoryncus: string handling is definitely "not easy"
16:04<andythenorth>I'll need bigger sprites
16:05<andythenorth>that means new templates
16:05<andythenorth>and also...FISH already flickers because the sprites extend beyond bounding box
16:05<Rhamphoryncus>Eddi|zuHause: plenty of l10n stuff I could understand, but the station name itself? Once generated it should be fixed (and the user can edit it arbitrarily). So where is it?
16:05<Eddi|zuHause>Rhamphoryncus: no. it doesn't work this way
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>Rhamphoryncus: the station name is consisting of parts, which are reconstructed every time it is displayed
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>Rhamphoryncus: that way it can react e.g. on town name changes
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>Rhamphoryncus: only if the user actually edits it, it is stored
16:07<Rhamphoryncus>Ahh. So I need to go do a trivial edit to make it easy
16:08<Eddi|zuHause>Rhamphoryncus: i'd say you should rather copy-paste the station sign code
16:08<Rhamphoryncus>... for a debug printf?
16:08<Eddi|zuHause>yes
16:09<Rhamphoryncus>So I should start rolling my own debugging lib
16:10<@Rubidium>SetDParam(0, stationid); char buffer[512]; GetString(buffer, STR_STATION_NAME, lastof(buffer); printf("%s\n", buffer);
16:10<@Rubidium>no need to copy code; that's only making it harder/more difficult
16:11<Rhamphoryncus>That's still a bit obtuse, but it's survivable
16:13<@Rubidium>oh... why do I now want to play some Mike Oldfield?
16:14<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: suggestion: remove the dep call completely, and replace it with a "find -iname '*.png'"
16:14<@Rubidium>well, the strings aren't meant to be printed to the console, so it's not optimised for that workflow
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16:23<andythenorth>sna
16:23<andythenorth>meh
16:24<andythenorth>good night
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16:40<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: that then assumes that all pngs are automatically needed
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: that's a better approximation than waiting 2 minutes for an exact result
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: alternatively, i can make the generator script create the dep file
16:42<@planetmaker>one could also just not use a dep check at all
16:46<andythenorth>dep check was added for a reason
16:46<andythenorth>I forget it though
16:48<Aygar>Is the last tile in the map tile array always MP_VOID?
16:50<@Yexo>all tiles at the south-east and south-west border are MP_VOID
16:50<@Yexo>if you play with custom map borders all tiles at the north-east and north-west borders are also MP_VOID
16:50<@Rubidium>what is always in this context? I remember TTDPatch savegames messing with some of the void types
16:51<frosch123>yeah, ttdp stores data on those tiles
16:51<frosch123>but i guess not in the tiletype, but in the other bits
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16:51<@Rubidium>so the tiles might not always be exactly the same as the MP_VOID tiles generated by a new game
16:52<@Belugas>Best Buy is a store, and Asus Transformer Prime is an android tablet, pretty cool from what we can gather :)
16:52<@Belugas>and not, it's not a north amercian stuff, it's mondial
16:53<@Belugas>and yes, i have a big case of lagging :)
16:54<Eddi|zuHause>"ten minutes before work ends"?
17:01<Aygar>If the last tile in the map tile array never has its tile_loop_proc() run could that be a problem?
17:02<frosch123>i remember a fs task about that... was that your patch?
17:02<Aygar>nope
17:03<Aygar>just thinking about alternate ways to make it work.
17:03<frosch123>well, then.. there is a fs task about making the tileloop's pattern less noticeable. it just misses the last tile on the map :p
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17:04<frosch123>the most imporant part about this is, that every tile needs to be processed every 256 ticks
17:04<frosch123>not more often and not less often
17:04<frosch123>the order is not important though
17:05<frosch123>(but obviously the order must stay constant, if the frequence for a single tile must be 1/(256 ticks))
17:07<Aygar>frosch123: okay, thanks for the info
17:09<@Yexo>create a list with all valid TileIndexes on game start. Shuffle that list. Run tileloop on 1/256 part of that list every tick
17:09<@Yexo>really random order every game :)
17:09<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23852 /trunk/Doxyfile: -Fix [FS#5011]: doxygen went haywire on FINAL token
17:09<frosch123>random might look weird :p
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17:10<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23853 /trunk/src/ (3 files in 3 dirs): -Fix: several incorrect @files
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17:15<Eddi|zuHause>well, we just need something like the 1/x function in GF(map_size)
17:15<Eddi|zuHause>where GF is the galois-field
17:19<Eddi|zuHause>it's "random" in the sense that it does not have a clear pattern, and it's "not random" in the sense that it has no repetitions
17:20<Eddi|zuHause>and it always exists, because map_size is a power of two
17:21<andythenorth>ho ho
17:22<andythenorth>which will be done first? CETS or BANDIT? :D
17:23*andythenorth has no artist currently
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17:23<Eddi|zuHause>we have two artist, but they're kinda "not fast enough"
17:26*andythenorth has to hope for DanMacK to get enthused
17:27<andythenorth>hmm
17:27<andythenorth>purchase cost by formula
17:27<andythenorth>how interestink
17:27<andythenorth>truck costs are remarkably boring
17:28<Eddi|zuHause>in CETS i do something like cost = weight*power^(1/4)
17:28<andythenorth>yeah, FISH has algorithms similart
17:29<andythenorth>number crew * tonnage * (river || sea) etc
17:29<andythenorth>foo * blah
17:29<andythenorth>trucks might be vehicle life * weight * blah
17:29<andythenorth>number axles?
17:29<andythenorth>hp?
17:30<andythenorth>cab type (sleeper = more)
17:30<Eddi|zuHause>don't include stuff that isn't modelled anyway
17:30<andythenorth>you mean stuff without a game prop?
17:31<Eddi|zuHause>stuff that has no gameplay effect
17:31*andythenorth will disagree most politely with that :)
17:31<andythenorth>cost has a gameplay effect in it's own right ;)
17:33<Eddi|zuHause>CETS compile time: real 7m15.717s user 7m8.896s sys 0m5.610s
17:33<Eddi|zuHause>with custom dep check: real 4m48.278s user 4m42.811s sys 0m4.486s
17:33<Eddi|zuHause>with custom dep check, nfo output via grfcodec: real 2m50.047s user 2m45.567s sys 0m3.750s
17:35<andythenorth>BANDIT 11s
17:36<andythenorth>hmm
17:36<andythenorth>I thought removing a dir of 40 files might speed it up
17:36<andythenorth>no difference at all :o
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17:40<andythenorth>bye
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17:42<@planetmaker>good night
17:43<@Terkhen>good night
17:44<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i'm committing makefile changes now, any suggestions on how to make them in a way they "survive" a makefile update?
17:44<@planetmaker>change Makefile.in
17:44<@planetmaker>otherwise: no
17:45<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: well, i have to remove lines from Makefile.nml
17:45<Eddi|zuHause>or can i just "override" them from Makefile.in?
17:47<@planetmaker>I guess that doesn't work
17:47<Eddi|zuHause>well, i just pushed my changes
17:47<@planetmaker>I suggest to just change it in place and not care about compatibility
17:47<Eddi|zuHause>if you have ideas...
17:47<@planetmaker>I have the idea to sleep now ;-) But I said that already :-P
17:48<Eddi|zuHause>you can take a look later :)
17:48<@planetmaker>but some speedup there is overdue. So yes
17:48<@planetmaker>eventually I will
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18:02<frosch123>night
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18:13<@Belugas>[16:54] <Eddi|zuHause> "ten minutes before work ends"? <-- sadly, no... still "here"
18:13<@Belugas>i think i'll go home... to tired to think
18:13<@Belugas>night all
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18:20<Eddi|zuHause>so...
18:20<Eddi|zuHause>python -m cProfile -s time ../nml/nmlc -o cets.nfo cets.nml > profile2.txt
18:20<Eddi|zuHause>says that it spends 45 seconds in binop.py:reduce
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18:24<Eddi|zuHause>probably "-s cumulative" is more interesting
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18:28<Eddi|zuHause>www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/profile_time.txt
18:28<Eddi|zuHause>www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/profile_cumulative.txt
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20:35<Asteconn>Dia doaibh a chairde!
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20:45<Rhamphoryncus>Rubidium: patch is coming along. Not 100% happy with my approach though.
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---Logclosed Thu Jan 26 00:00:44 2012