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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-01-26

---Logopened Thu Jan 26 00:00:45 2012
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02:12-!-planetmaker changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.1.5, 1.2.0-beta3 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, ever | English only
02:13<@planetmaker>moin
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06:22<andythenorth>morning
06:44<Eddi|zuHause>good err... night
06:44<Eddi|zuHause>:p
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07:23<andythenorth>I need some advice wrt correct thing to do with FIRS
07:24<andythenorth>(1) hand over the project to a new maintainer (2) abandon it (3) fork the project from 0.6.4 (4) something else
07:32<Ammler>4
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07:38<andythenorth>Ammler: any ideas?
07:38<andythenorth>I'm stuck
07:39<Ammler>andythenorth: I miss context :-) you do not want to use nml?
07:40<andythenorth>nml is fine
07:40<dihedral>why not do 3 AND 4?
07:40<Ammler>what else is different in 0.6 then?
07:41<dihedral>fork the project for another maintainer and continue your own path in your own time
07:41<dihedral>or - grab another maintainer to continue where you are stuck, with 2 minds instead of one
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07:42<andythenorth>but I figured out I can't maintain the project
07:42<andythenorth>I don't understand the code base
07:42<andythenorth>I'm dependent on other people to fix bugs, also same for writing new code
07:42<andythenorth>I can't even get graphics into industries
07:42<andythenorth>the responsible thing to do would be to hand over the project
07:42<Ammler>aren't you right now basically the only dev for FIRS, so how can you get in trouble with someone else?
07:43<andythenorth>Ammler: 0.6.4 is the last nfo release
07:43<andythenorth>so I'd branch from there and continue with nfo
07:44<Ammler>so nml isn't fine :'-(
07:45<andythenorth>nfo / nml both fine
07:45<andythenorth>it's more that I wrote the codebase for the nfo version
07:45<andythenorth>and it's mostly commented etc
07:46<andythenorth>I'm no good at working with other people's code it seems :(
07:47<andythenorth>although I didn't write the code for CHIPS, and that's fine
07:48<Ammler>well, if you continue on the nfo code, you basically trash the nml converting
07:48<Ammler>as nobody else will continue there
07:50<@planetmaker>wow
07:50<@planetmaker>I won't argue. So tired
07:52*andythenorth doesn't want to argue. I just want to do the correct thing
07:52<@planetmaker>but I guess I just stop to care
07:52<andythenorth>usually I just do what I want then say sorry later
07:53<andythenorth>but that can be bad :(
07:54<Ammler>continue on the nfo code while others made the nml convering is stupid, sorry
07:54<@planetmaker>I still think very much you didn't even try to code a single industry without any templating
07:54<@planetmaker>which is the first step. But you want to skip steps 1 to 6 in learning NML and start with step 7
07:55<@planetmaker>I coded the whole of swedish rails without templates
07:55<Ammler>I guess, you basically need to forget about nfo, which you invested much time in learning it, which is understandable
07:55<@planetmaker>later I introduced a few small ones.
07:56<@planetmaker>for what it's worth, but I'll need to be honest: I surely would be offended, if you continued FIRS in nfo. Even if I don't want to be
07:56<andythenorth>yeah, I don't want to do that
07:56<andythenorth>I wonder if I should try and find a new maintainer
07:57<andythenorth>seems the most honest thing to do
07:57<Ammler>it's not about the maintainer
07:57<Ammler>it's you, who is needed
07:57<@planetmaker>if you come to the conclusion you don't want nml. Then doing it nfo is the right way
07:58<@planetmaker>While I like FIRS to the degree I like contributing code (after all I spend weeks of coding on it already), I don't feel like I want to be the maintainer
07:59<@planetmaker>my current time budget simply doesn't allow that. Esp. given my other projects
07:59<Ammler>how would another maintainer solve the issue?
08:00<Ammler>I guess, what you want is another coder :-)
08:03<@planetmaker>andythenorth: did you try so far to make a single industry? No templates? Just pure NML in one file?
08:04<@planetmaker>I think only when that is mastered, and that's not really that difficult, then you should judge
08:04<@planetmaker>But really, learn it stepwise. You didn't become an nfo templating master by trying to write the firs 0.6.4 code from the start
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09:22<@Belugas>hello
09:27<andythenorth>o/ Belugas
09:29<@Belugas>sir andythenorth :)
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11:13<LordAro>afternoons
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11:52<spongie>Hi guys! I always have at least one train at the station loading up, yet I don't get above 80%, how come?
11:53<Eddi|zuHause>look at the "game mechanics" page on the wiki
11:53<Eddi|zuHause>it explains how station rating works
11:53<Eddi|zuHause>basically: "always a train waiting" gives you ca. 67%. the rest must be obtained by other means
11:54<spongie>oh what other means hehe?
11:54<spongie>bribes?
11:56<spongie>argh, that table is too much to handle
11:57<Eddi|zuHause>vehicle speed, statue, advertising, ...
12:04<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: any idea why a patch like this would put the makefile in an infinite loop, running the generate script over and over again? www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/generate.diff
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12:08<Mazur>First comments, sugestions, helpful tips invited on this Work In Progress: http://5ed04965.cm-7-1b.dynamic.ziggo.nl/pics/FIRS.png
12:09<SpComb>not enough cowbell
12:11<Mazur>Oh, everybidy's at dinner.
12:12<Mazur>Ooer, a typo!
12:12<Mazur>That should have been: everybiddy, of course.
12:14<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I looped the makefile the other day, can't remember how though :o
12:14<andythenorth>it was editing the same type of code as your paste though
12:15<Eddi|zuHause>Mazur: a little more structure would be nice
12:17<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I went back over my terminal history for clues but didn't find anything, sorry :(
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12:20<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: iirc it was a simple typo when I looped the makefile
12:21<andythenorth>but my memory ain't great ;)
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12:21<andythenorth>bbl
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12:24<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23854 /trunk/src/ (core/random_func.cpp core/random_func.hpp debug.cpp debug.h): -Codechange: make it easier to put random debug stuff into the random log
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12:42<spongie>it says the n% transported is < 100% even though I have a train waiting. "n% transported" is the station rating? im pretty sure I can transport anything that is produced or transferred.
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12:48<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23855 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#5007]: out of bounds read for slowdown parameter caused desync when railtype >= 4, vehicles were fast, and the original acceleration model was used
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12:51<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: Did you try delcaring "generate" as .PHONY? Still shouldn't produce an infinite loop I guess.
12:51<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: never heard of that
12:52<+michi_cc>http://www.gnu.org/software/make/manual/html_node/Phony-Targets.html#Phony-Targets
12:52<+michi_cc>Maybe "A phony target should not be a prerequisite of a real target file; if it is, its recipe will be run every time make goes to update that file." is relevant here.
12:55<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds like the opposite of what i want
12:57<+michi_cc>Maybe let "src/engines.gnml" be the rule that does the work and give it as a prerequsite to the other two targets.
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12:59<Eddi|zuHause>devzone weirdness: why didn't it throw the r555 error on push?
13:00<Mazur>Eddi|zuHause, how do you mean that, "more structure"? More separated? More with similar industries near eachother? DIfferent colours so it's clearer?
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13:00<Eddi|zuHause>Mazur: yes.
13:01<Eddi|zuHause>Mazur: i thought of grouping it in circles and sectors
13:01<Eddi|zuHause>circles: inner: town, middle: secondary, outer:primary
13:01<Eddi|zuHause>sectors: agriculture, construction, manufacturing, chemical/energy
13:01<Mazur>You're leaving out tertiary and quartery.
13:01<andythenorth>it's a hard problem
13:01<Eddi|zuHause>there's no such thing as quartery
13:01<andythenorth>http://hawkdawg.com/img/rrt/rt3/1024_Industry_Chart.jpg
13:02<Eddi|zuHause>and tertiary == town
13:02<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: that doesn't really stack up for FIRS
13:02<Mazur>Indeed.
13:02<Eddi|zuHause>where "town" includes the shop, hotel, etc.
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13:03<andythenorth>my understanding of tertiary is the layer of second-secondaries
13:03<andythenorth>this varies from wikipedia's understanding :P
13:03*Mazur agrees.
13:03<Eddi|zuHause>you can have several secondary industries in a chain
13:04<Eddi|zuHause>what i mean with "secondary" is "industries that both produce and accept cargo [other than supplies]"
13:04<Eddi|zuHause>Mazur: and i'd leave out the passengers
13:04*andythenorth has been too grouchy recently and is going away for a bit
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13:09<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: devzone doesn't have grfcodec?
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13:12<@Terkhen>hello
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13:13<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: you want distro package, release or nightly?
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13:14<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: i need grfcodec in CETS build
13:14<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: CETS r556 fails with "command not found"
13:14<Ammler>in your case, it might be easiest to add a requires file
13:14<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: how do i do that?
13:15<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: and i have a feeling "build on push" is ignored lately
13:16<Ammler>echo -e "nml\ngrfcodec" > .devzone/build/requires
13:21<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: last "build on push" is from almost 3 days ago
13:21<Eddi|zuHause>there were several pushes inbetween
13:25<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: hmm, the last build was stock, I retriggered
13:27<Eddi|zuHause>no idea what happened there, that always worked before
13:28*Belugas is happy. he does not have to process US taxes anymore!
13:29<@Belugas>Those guys are pure genious when it comes to bring in the most devilish tax policy yu can imagine!
13:29<@Belugas>so now, we're call ing a service that does it all for us, one shot kiss goodbye :)
13:31<Eddi|zuHause>i never understood US taxes
13:31<Eddi|zuHause>in europe, all retail prices must be given including tax
13:31<Eddi|zuHause>and on the final summary it must be written which part is taxes
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13:36<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: i have a feeling by adding the "requires" file it ignores all previous requirements (coming from the "type" file, i presume)
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13:37<@Belugas>they have a5 levels of "possible" tax authorities, with tresholds, variable rates (some chages are even possible within same city different zip codes)
13:38<@Belugas>TOTAL ANARCHY!
13:38<chester>where
13:38<Eddi|zuHause>in germany they have two levels of taxes, one for food and one for other stuff... and this is constant over whole of germany
13:40<ccfreak2k>Eddi|zuHause, basically
13:40<xiong>An Advanced Setting allows sending money to other companies. I have it ON. How do I actually send money now?
13:40<ccfreak2k>there's federal taxes, and state taxes, and county taxes.
13:40<ccfreak2k>Going between cities could yield different totals.
13:41<@Belugas>yup
13:42<@Rubidium>you're talking about VAT, right?
13:42<@Belugas>yup
13:42<chester>usa has no vat
13:42<@Belugas>or rather... VATs
13:42<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: since Belugas is in the cash register business, i thought that was implied
13:42<@Belugas>Value Added Tax, which means: tax added at the tilt
13:43<@Rubidium>then we got three (0%, 6% and 19%)
13:43<xiong>US cities, counties and states impose sales tax; not quite the same thing but similar.
13:43<Eddi|zuHause>what has 0% VAT?
13:43<@Belugas>some of those taxes are added on top of others
13:43<Eddi|zuHause>the levels are 7% (food) and 19% (luxury) in germany
13:44<@Belugas>exemptions are sometimes encoded as 0%, which is a nice hack
13:44<Eddi|zuHause>where not all food is actually in the food category
13:44<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: buying prescribed medicin, some banking stuff
13:44<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: International airplane tickets for example.
13:45<@Rubidium>yeah, rabbit feed is 6%, guinea pig feed is 19% ;)
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r23856 /trunk/src/lang/ (french.txt german.txt latvian.txt slovak.txt welsh.txt):
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: french - 21 changes by OliTTD
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: german - 3 changes by planetmaker
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: latvian - 4 changes by Parastais
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: slovak - 19 changes by dafree
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: welsh - 4 changes by kazzie
13:45<Eddi|zuHause>to make things worse, there's also some non-food in the food category
13:46<@Belugas>yeah to the craziness!
13:46<Eddi|zuHause>like, staying at a hotel (wtf?!?)
13:46<chester>i heard of a man who eat planes
13:47<Eddi|zuHause>eating at the hotel restaurant, however, is non-food
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13:48<xiong>No search reveals any explanation of sending money. Wiki, forum, SE, all come up dry.
13:49<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: "nml\ngrfcodec" <-- I didn't forget nml ;-)
13:49<Eddi|zuHause>xiong: can send money from the client list
13:49<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: yes. but since when do i follow advise? :)
13:50<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: it seemed illogical to have to give nml twice
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13:51<supermop>hello!
13:51<supermop>i have an obnoxious idea!
13:51<supermop>has refitting locomotives been properly sorted out yet?
13:51<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: there are other ways but this seems easiest in your case
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13:52<supermop>or do they still need a cargo?
13:52<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: they still need a cargo, but you can set capacity to 0
13:52<supermop>ok thats not ideal but would work
13:52<Eddi|zuHause>so you don't need a special cargo, just can pick an existing one
13:53<supermop>can different refits have different running costs?
13:53<Eddi|zuHause>yes
13:53<supermop>ok great
13:53<supermop>and different introduction dates?
13:53<Eddi|zuHause>yes
13:53<supermop>nice!
13:54<supermop>and the big if:
13:54<supermop>can a locomotive influence the decay rate of it's carriages?
13:54<frosch123>what decay rate?
13:54<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: the VAT seems to be different in Büsingen and Helgoland though ;)
13:54<supermop>cargo
13:54<Eddi|zuHause>that should be the other way round: the carriages check the locomotive
13:55<supermop>i cant think of any other way to model desirability than decay rate
13:55<frosch123>ah, you can if you define the wagons yourself. i.e. the locomotive cannot change the wagons, but the wagons can change their rating depending on the locomotive
13:56<supermop>but lets say a streamlined locomotive is prettier than the same engine stripped of its exterior
13:56<frosch123>you don't see the engine when sitting inside the train :p
13:56<supermop>there is no way yet for 'prettiness' not increase station rating or cargo payments
13:56<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: the easiest way i can imagine is to use the user-bitmask for that
13:56<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: and reading that in cb36 for the decay rate of the wagon
13:56<supermop>but you could abuse passenger decay rate
13:57<frosch123>but you can increase the running cost without streamlined stuff
13:57<supermop>to simulate the public liking the shiny new train
13:57<supermop>well i was think that but
13:57<supermop>streamlining increases fuel efficiency, so reduces running costs,
13:58<Eddi|zuHause>you can have a low-speed running cost and a high-speed running cost
13:58<supermop>but it makes maintenance more difficult, so it should also increase running cost
13:58<supermop>i figured it would be more simple to fake a 'desirability' of the train
13:59<supermop>so you could have generic steam train, introduced 1920 running cost x, decay rate y
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14:00<supermop>5 years later, streamlined refit becomes available
14:00<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: anyway, how can a build be "stuck" for 3 days? shouldn't you have like a timeout?
14:00<supermop>running cost more or less equal to x, or a bit higher, decay rate 0.8y
14:01<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: yes, we "should" :-P
14:01<frosch123>supermop: mind that you cannot autoreplace between refits
14:01<frosch123>so, upgrades are no easy business for the player
14:02<supermop>then austerity refit say 15 -20 years later (avoid wartime naming), with running cost 0.7x, decay rate 1.5y
14:02<frosch123>if they are done via refitting
14:02<supermop>well the player decides whether he wants to overhaul his stock to the fancy new fairings or keep the old ones
14:02<Elukka>if you refit a locoomotive to a cargo with a capacity of 0, will it still break 'full load all' commands?
14:02<Elukka>(ie, the train will wait forever for a cargo that can't be loaded)
14:02<frosch123>supermop: but he would have to replace every single engine manually
14:03<frosch123>no autoreplace
14:03<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: also the player won't get informed of the new refit/upgrade options via news message
14:03<supermop>hmm
14:04<Eddi|zuHause>which is both something i hellishly hate about av8
14:04<andythenorth>autoreplace / renew and subtype tricks don't play nicely
14:04<supermop>it seems like it would still be better than selling your streamlined trains to buy new trains meant to simulate the old streamlined trains with their fairings stripped off
14:05<andythenorth>supermop: I think you're applying 'logic'
14:05<supermop>anyway i did preface this by saying it was an obnoxious suggestion
14:05<andythenorth>whereas you might be better applying 'we are where we are' :)
14:05<supermop>heh
14:05<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: in CETS we update the livery based on last service date, but without any gameplay effect
14:06<supermop>but i like to micromanage my fleet, cascading crappy trains down to freight or branch lines
14:06<supermop>so maybe i'm the only audience for this idea
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14:07<supermop>and parking my really old trains in a yard outside a depot
14:07<andythenorth>or you play the wrong game :)
14:07<Eddi|zuHause>"micromanagement" is generally a bad idea. the game needs to provide means for "macromanagement"
14:07<Elukka>Eddi|zuHause: there's a bit of a flaw with that.. if you don't play with servicing/breakdowns, liveries will never be updated
14:07<Elukka>i dunno if there's a better option though
14:08<supermop>also take those 3 refits i mentioned
14:08<supermop>lets call them ginzu a4 mk i, mk ii, and mk iii
14:08<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: one idea was that the running cost could be increased if not servicing
14:08<Elukka>i stopped playing with servicing when i realized trains suck at finding paths to depots
14:08<Elukka>that was a while ago though
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14:09<Elukka>it always messed up all my trains when they'd try to find a depot
14:09<supermop>maybe a set has those as three separate locomotives instead
14:09<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: another idea was to offer a switch to update the livery "immediately"/"on service"/"never"
14:09<Elukka>i think that's the best idea
14:09<supermop>with the hidden option to refit a mk i to mk ii spec
14:10<supermop>that way if you buy a mk i one year before the mkii comes out, it's not immediately obsolete or superceded
14:11<Eddi|zuHause>where "never" actually means "depends on build date"
14:11<Eddi|zuHause>(so some later liveries might be unavailable)
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14:19<Wolf01>hello
14:19<__ln__>ciao
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14:39<@SmatZ>http://www.dpreview.com/news/2012/01/25/Imitated_Image_Copyright_Case ... I don't want to live in this world anymore
14:39<@SmatZ>also, ACTA signed by EU countries today
14:40<__ln__>great news
14:43<@SmatZ>http://www.explosm.net/comics/2684/ anyone chinese here, who would translate that for me? :)
14:43<@SmatZ>xiong ? :-)
14:43<xiong>Sorry, SmatZ; I'm not Chinese.
14:44<@SmatZ>no problem xiong, sorry for not knowing what nationality you are
14:44<__ln__>you are not required to be Chinese, it's enough to read Chinese
14:44<Eddi|zuHause>SmatZ: the question is wrong. should be "anyone know chinese"?
14:45<@SmatZ>yes, I know the question was wrong
14:45<@SmatZ>but anyone who knows chinese could say "I am not chinese, but I can translate it for you"
14:45<@SmatZ>but yes, I should have asked better :)
14:45<@SmatZ>Eddi|zuHause: do you know chinese, by any chance? :)
14:45<xiong>Sorry, SmatZ; I can't translate Chinese.
14:46<xiong>Yes, I should have replied better.
14:46<@SmatZ>thank you xiong; it's not your fault my question was not exact :)
14:46<xiong>Your question was clear. Sorry I can't help.
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14:47<xiong>Does anyone have the least idea how to send money to another company? Or is this one of those purely theoretical features?
14:47<@SmatZ>xiong: you can send money to player
14:47<@SmatZ>in multiplayer
14:47<@SmatZ>(I don't know why it's designed that way)
14:47<xiong>Okay. How?
14:47<@SmatZ>just open the Client list (in-game)
14:48<@SmatZ>select the client, and choose "send money"
14:48<@SmatZ>(press LMB on the client, keep it pressed, and choose "send money")
14:49<@SmatZ>or "give money", I think
14:49<xiong>Where might this Client list be?
14:50<__ln__>http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Finn+suspected+of+years+of+espionage+for+Stasi/1135270267893
14:51<@SmatZ>xiong: http://devs.openttd.org/~smatz/xxx.png
14:52<@SmatZ>xiong: http://devs.openttd.org/~smatz/xxx2.png
14:54<xiong>I'm sorry if I'm being obtuse. I don't know what you're doing to open the Client list in the first place.
14:54<@SmatZ>xiong: I open the Client list by pressing LMB on the "face" icon in the main toolbar (as seen in http://devs.openttd.org/~smatz/xxx.png )
14:55<xiong>Ah. The face icon. Thank you. And only in multiplayer.
14:56<xiong>So I've backed myself into a corner by starting in single player.
14:56<frosch123>in single player you have to go via cheats
14:56<frosch123>add 10M to the other, subtract 10M from you
14:57<xiong>I don't understand why there's a distinction between the two modes. What's the difference between playing single and running a multiplayer game without anybody else invited?
14:58<xiong>BTW, I feel I have to say, No, I'm not purely antisocial. My schedule is just irregular and offbeat. I've tried online games and either it messes up my sleep and work... or I mess up the game.
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15:01<frosch123>some things are technically not possible to do in multiplayer. so, to make it fair we forbid some stuff in singleplayer, too :p
15:04<Eddi|zuHause>tbh, i never understood the "feature" that makes you give money to clients, not companies
15:04<Eddi|zuHause>it always sounds like a hack has gone horribly wrong
15:04<@SmatZ>Eddi|zuHause: patches to change that are welcome
15:05<@SmatZ>and yes, moving the "give money" button to the Company Information screen has been discussed a few times ;)
15:05<@SmatZ>but nobody has ever implemented it
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15:06<frosch123>i always thought it is because you know the players you chat with, but you do not know the random company names of them
15:06<frosch123>and judging company colour from nick names can be hard for some colours
15:06<@SmatZ>the player can tell you the company name
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15:07<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: maybe, but still you can't give money to "yourself" in a "one-player" multiplayer game
15:08<@SmatZ>I would welcome the ability to give money to AIs
15:08<@SmatZ>or AIs give money to me
15:08<@SmatZ>:)
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15:09<Eddi|zuHause>maybe it should be totally reworked, so you can transfer money by buying shares
15:11<@SmatZ>I think OpenTTD is about building & transport, it's not an economy simulator
15:12<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but we have a share system, and it's pretty useless. also we have a give money system that is pretty useless. by combining the two, it may become something useful
15:14<Eddi|zuHause>also by tieing it to shares, you can impose limits
15:14<@SmatZ>or something even more useless :)
15:14*SmatZ is thinking
15:15<Eddi|zuHause>like you can't buy more than 49% shares
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15:15<@SmatZ>I am not sure that is really needed
15:16<@SmatZ>eg. a system of "I will borrow 1M from you in the exchange of 10% of my income in the next 10 years" doesn't seem to fit into openttd
15:17<@SmatZ>but maybe it would e fine...
15:17<@SmatZ>I don't know
15:17<@SmatZ>in #openttdcoop, there are never problems with money
15:17<Eddi|zuHause>SmatZ: it would also be a possibility to replace the money-borrowing mechanism with selling shares
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15:18<Rhamphoryncus>There already is a system for borrowing money. It's a loan. From the bank.
15:18<Eddi|zuHause>so "max loan" would be equivalent to "49% shareholder value"
15:18<@SmatZ>:)
15:19<Eddi|zuHause>which means it will properly scale throughout the game
15:19<@SmatZ>it could scale even over 49%
15:19<Eddi|zuHause>and it's not "repay loan after 2 years, and then forget about it"
15:19<Eddi|zuHause>SmatZ: that has some implications over company control
15:20<Eddi|zuHause>SmatZ: not sure if that should be modelled
15:20<@SmatZ>and when more than 50% of shares is sold, players for that company could control the other company, but not vice versa
15:20<xiong>Anybody who thinks it's too easy to earn money; try chillpack with 7 AIs. After 18 years, yes, I'm way ahead and money isn't a problem. But the first decade is a bit tougher.
15:20<@SmatZ>it wouldn't be hard code-wise
15:20<Eddi|zuHause>selling >50% shares may mean "i want to sell my company"
15:21<@SmatZ>(well, swapping the company you are playing at would need a GUI)
15:21<@SmatZ>still...
15:21<xiong>Isn't shuffling money between multiple zerg companies specifically frowned upon on most servers?
15:22<@SmatZ>xiong: you can't give someone money you have borrowed from the bank
15:23<@SmatZ>so it's not like "start a new company, give all money to company X, let that company bankrupt"
15:23<xiong>I hope you mean, you can't send money when you're in debt.
15:23<@SmatZ>yes
15:23<@SmatZ>when your bank ballance is 1.2M, and you have 1M borrowed from the bank, you can give someone at most 0.2M
15:24<xiong>But you might roll up a nice wad using underhanded tactics and skim off the profit to another company before you get busted out by server admin.
15:25<Wolf01>'night
15:25<@SmatZ>nn Wolf01
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15:26<@SmatZ>xiong: the admin might kick/ban the IP you are connected from
15:26<@SmatZ>so you are kicked from the server from both companies
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15:26<xiong>Yes. That's why hardworking zergers switch IPs.
15:27<xiong>OT: We had considerable issues with that sort of cheat when playing Diplomacy.
15:27<@SmatZ>would anyone do that just to cheat in openttd?
15:27<xiong>Dunno. Good question.
15:28<xiong>I gather most of the OTTD multiplay is cooperative so cheating really makes no sense.
15:28<frosch123>i am not so sure about that
15:29<frosch123>those goal servers do not look so cooperative, but rather cheat as much as allowed
15:30<Eddi|zuHause>my (limited) experience with multiplayer is that it's mostly "stay out of each others way", with the occasional "flatten the whole map" sprinkled in
15:32<frosch123>players do the latter also in single player
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15:37<supermop>hello
15:39<__ln__>hallo
15:39<@SmatZ>holla
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15:43<supermop>can one code stations in nml yet?
15:48<@Terkhen>to my knowledge, no
15:48<supermop>ok
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15:59<supermop_>nice we got a little 4g hotspot to take on site visits
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16:19<andythenorth>Yexo: does $ have any significance in nml currently?
16:21<supermop>maybe you should pay yexo some $ to get the features you want in nml?
16:21<V453000>:D
16:22<@Rubidium>I guess you're better off offering €
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16:27<supermop>i'd say yen would be a bit more desirable at the moment
16:28<@Rubidium>why? That's been weak for decades
16:28<supermop>its very strong at the moment
16:29<supermop>a dollar buys 77 yen today versus 120 in 2005
16:30<andythenorth>hmm
16:30*andythenorth has just invented python templating
16:30<andythenorth>only it already exists
16:30<__ln__>but does that tell more about the yen or the dollar?
16:30<andythenorth>this is fortunate, because my implementation might suck
16:31<supermop>yen actually, everyone spent 2011 using it as their safe bet due to worries over the euro
16:31<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: fancy trying to see if python templating can replace more cpp?
16:31<andythenorth>http://docs.python.org/release/2.5.2/lib/node40.html
16:31<andythenorth>not sure I understand how to use it yet
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16:40<Rhamphoryncus>andythenorth: wait, how many languages is openttd using now?
16:41<andythenorth>hmm
16:41<andythenorth>this could work - for simple nml cases at least
16:42<@Rubidium>Rhamphoryncus: around 70
16:42<Rhamphoryncus>.... *programming* languages :P
16:42<andythenorth>variadic cpp macros work, but they stink
16:43<andythenorth>they look nothing like the string replacement / templating sane people use
16:43<andythenorth>${something}_better
16:44<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: [18:04:00] planetmaker: any idea why a patch like this would put the makefile in an infinite loop, running the generate script over and over again? www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/generate.diff <-- you have a circular dep. Where you touch the files with the gen script which depends on the files
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16:44<Rhamphoryncus>Gimme another 20 years and I may have a better language for you ;)
16:45<@Rubidium>then ~10
16:45<Rhamphoryncus>Rubidium: oi
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16:46<@planetmaker>22:37 Eddi|zuHause: [19:09:19] planetmaker: devzone doesn't have grfcodec? <-- it does. But by default it knows NML and NFO projects. Thus it uses one or the other template. You can use a custom requirement thing so it has also grfcodec
16:47<@Rubidium>C, C++, Objective-C, sed, awk, bash, vbs, squirrel, sh, Makefile
16:47<@Rubidium>oh, nfo
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16:47<frosch123>also strgen and settingsgen :p
16:48<frosch123>and projectfilegen?
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16:49<Rhamphoryncus>x_x
16:49<@Rubidium>those aren't that general purpose
16:50<@Rubidium>in the first ten you could probably write a Turing machine, the latter four probably not
16:50<Rhamphoryncus>most of those I expected. objective-c and vbs?
16:50<@Rubidium>objective-c = osx
16:50<@Rubidium>vbs = version determination / project file regeneration on Windows
16:51*Rhamphoryncus nods
16:51<Steve^>Is there a changelog for releases?
16:51<Rhamphoryncus>All reasonable and justified. Still makes quite the list.
16:51<frosch123>Steve^: there is a changelog next to every download
16:51<@Rubidium>Steve^: from which download is the changelog missing?
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16:52<frosch123>there is of course also a summary on the wiki
16:52<Steve^>Ah yes, I see it
16:52<Steve^>frosch123: that sounds more like what I want
16:52<Steve^>I basically want to know what's been going on since I last played
16:52<frosch123>search for "release history" or so
16:53<frosch123>it lists major new features and links to the manual in most cases
16:53<Steve^>perfect, thanks
16:53<andythenorth>this has no context without the input file...but it works: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/974/
16:54<andythenorth>this is the input file, which still contains a lot of cpp, but also some ${} templating http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/975/
16:54<andythenorth>'python pre-processor' :)
16:54<andythenorth>ppp
16:54<andythenorth>p^3
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16:56<andythenorth>hmm
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16:56*andythenorth wonders if cpp defines are still relevant
16:56<andythenorth>I kind of like them
16:56<andythenorth>a lot
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16:59<andythenorth>hmm
17:00<andythenorth>which is more readable?
17:00<andythenorth>${truck_id}_switch_cargo_subtype
17:00<andythenorth>or
17:00<andythenorth>${truck_id_switch_cargo_subtype}
17:00<andythenorth>the second example would require a concatenation elsewhere
17:01<andythenorth>and couples the template and all the calls to the template more horribly
17:01<andythenorth>the first example is clunkier, but better decoupled
17:10<andythenorth>hmm
17:10<andythenorth>cpp #if is still useful
17:10<andythenorth>although I dislike it
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17:20*andythenorth wonders if cpp evaluates #if 1 == 2 as false
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17:31<andythenorth>hmm
17:32<andythenorth>string replacement is fine
17:32<andythenorth>but it's limited without macros or includes
17:32*andythenorth -> bed
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17:38<@Terkhen>good night
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17:39<andythenorth>python templates can be chained, but it's clunk and requires a function definition afaict
17:39<andythenorth>clunk / clunky /s
17:39<andythenorth>maybe not
17:42<andythenorth>meh
17:42<andythenorth>too easy to accidentally write a generator
17:42<andythenorth>generators are evil
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17:44<SpComb>generators are the awesomeest
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18:50<Mazur>I think it is done, the first version of the FIRS chart: http://5ed04965.cm-7-1b.dynamic.ziggo.nl/pics/FIRS.png
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19:14<Rhamphoryncus>tropic refurbishment set.. has a train that can do 300 km/h.. but no cars that'll do that x_x
19:19<Rhamphoryncus>Heh. Long vehicles has a semi. Should be nice.. but they're not articulated and they're still treated as tiny so they overlap
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19:44<Rhamphoryncus>Hah, generated a subtropic map with a 110 tile sea gap down the middle. There is a spot with an island where you could do a 45 and 70 tile bridge though
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23:52<Rhamphoryncus>Turns out water is worth a lot more if you deliver it to a water tower rather than a factory outside of town x_x
---Logclosed Fri Jan 27 00:00:48 2012