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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-01-27

---Logopened Fri Jan 27 00:00:48 2012
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00:14<SirWaddles>Hi
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00:56<Asteconn>Dia daoibh a chairde!
00:58<Asteconn>I have a gameplay question
00:58<Asteconn>What's the best method to maximise returns on train passenger transport?
00:59<Asteconn>I mean, I can almost always run a profit, if sometimes that profit is only just above breaking even
00:59<Asteconn>But I'd like to maximise my returns and such
01:04*Asteconn nudges the channel
01:15<Rhamphoryncus>Go fast
01:16<Rhamphoryncus>Mostly I find passengers dissatisfying. I usually only provide service to pacify the town, not to get a profit
01:18<Rhamphoryncus>Although atm I'm using aviator set with 1/1 speed and turning a decent profit. Unless I broke it by not setting it to 1/1 until after I started (it has a warning about really wanting 1/1 speed)
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01:23<Asteconn>1/1 speed?
01:24<Asteconn>I do enjoy providing passenger train transport actually
01:24<Asteconn>Sometimes I get §100000+ yearly (no inflation) profits for some trains, but I have no idea how I accomplish this.
01:24<Asteconn>Aside from, as you suggest, going quickly.
01:25<Asteconn>But then again, I get some trains running at 100mph returning 60k+ profits sometimes, and others running at 165mph with profits of only a couple of thousand.
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01:26<Rhamphoryncus>Are they full both ways?
01:26<Asteconn>Sometimes
01:26<Rhamphoryncus>There's actually an optimal distance for a given speed
01:26<Asteconn>Oh?
01:27<Asteconn>Well - that doesn't surprise me too much, but please, do tell :D
01:27<Rhamphoryncus>Not sure if it's covered here: http://wiki.openttd.org/Game_Mechanics
01:28<Rhamphoryncus>http://wiki.openttd.org/Game_Mechanics#Delivery_payment_rates
01:29<Rhamphoryncus>Oh, an optimal *time* in transit. From that you want the furthest distance possible
01:29<Asteconn>Yeah
01:30<Asteconn>A friend of mine I play online with often, he builds airports and sends concordes from one end of the map to the other, makes a fortune doing so xD
01:30<Rhamphoryncus>I love doing that :)
01:32<Asteconn>xD
01:35<Asteconn>I play for the trains though. I have a feeling that I'm a closet gricer or something xD
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01:44<Asteconn>Another pertinent question then - how best to fill my trains up, but still keeping a decent service frequency?
01:46<Eddi|zuHause>make sure your next train arrives around the time the first one gets full
01:47<Rhamphoryncus>If you look earlier in that page you'll see a list of factors for station rating. The ones you can have consistently are high vehicle speed, low days since last pickup (sitting on full load works), amount of cargo waiting, and having a statue
01:48<andythenorth>mako or chameleon?
01:48<andythenorth>place your vote
01:49<Rhamphoryncus>andythenorth: chameleons are for training...
01:50<Rhamphoryncus>Asteconn: So if your train does 321 km/h, has less than 7.5 days between pickups, leaves less than 100 in the station at any time, and there's a statue, in theory you should get 100%
01:50<Asteconn>Indeed
01:50<Eddi|zuHause>i think there's a maximum for the speed, beyond that it's ignored
01:51<Asteconn>Does a train waiting at a station as a result of timetabling count?
01:51<Eddi|zuHause>yes
01:52<Asteconn>Recently I've started to set all of my passenger trains to wait at the station for a bit
01:52<Asteconn>usually 250 ticks
01:52<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: is all CETS templating cpp?
01:52<andythenorth>do you use any python templating
01:53<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the properties are in python
01:53<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: and the graphics are ... complex
01:53<andythenorth>can you name a file with examples?
01:54<andythenorth>I want to check I'm not re-solving something you solved already
01:54<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the properties are handled in write.py
01:54<andythenorth>ta
01:54<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the graphics are handled in tree.py
01:54<andythenorth>you're using % mostly?
01:54<Eddi|zuHause>yes
01:55<andythenorth>I've tried the $ templating
01:55<andythenorth>I like it
01:55<andythenorth>but including one template into another is clunky
01:56<Eddi|zuHause>not sure what you mean
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01:56<andythenorth>this doesn't build anything real but: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/976/
01:57<andythenorth>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/977/
01:57<andythenorth>currently it's a horrible mix of cpp and $ templates. I'm replacing the cpp
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01:58<Eddi|zuHause>aha, never seen that
01:58<Eddi|zuHause>yes. it'd make sense to get rid of the CPP then
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01:58<Eddi|zuHause>besides #include, i use very little CPP
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02:00<Eddi|zuHause>for the vehicle-identifiers and for "named constants" (which nml unfortunately doesn't support)
02:00<Eddi|zuHause>and some magic for the vehicle slicing
02:01<andythenorth>I'm going to test chameleon http://chameleon.repoze.org/docs/latest/
02:01<andythenorth>ignore the html/xml note - it's fine to work with plain text, not nodes
02:02<Eddi|zuHause>"for truck_id in trucks: truck = trucks[truck_id]" <- i'd use "for idtruck_, truck in trucks.iiteritems()"
02:02<Eddi|zuHause>bäh
02:02<andythenorth>yes that would be better indeed
02:02<Eddi|zuHause>truck_id
02:02<andythenorth>my for loops are unsophisticated
02:02<andythenorth>I only recently discovered enumerate
02:03<Eddi|zuHause>yup, handy tool :)
02:03<andythenorth>there are n+1 templating modules for python
02:03<Rhamphoryncus>Huh. While passengers are best at 70 days, for mail it's best at 90
02:03<andythenorth>python templating just smells write for nml - to me at least
02:04<andythenorth>I'm going to rewrite BANDIT without any cpp
02:04<andythenorth>I'm also surprised how fast python is locally
02:04<Eddi|zuHause>Rhamphoryncus: 70 days, or 70*2.5 days?
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02:04<Rhamphoryncus>70. What's the 2.5 for?
02:05<Eddi|zuHause>cargo is "aged" every 185 ticks, which equals 2.5 days
02:05<Eddi|zuHause>so when the code says "cargo_age == 70", then it's 70*2.5 days
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02:06<Rhamphoryncus>The wiki page talks about days. 0.4%/day probably means the code is actually 1%/2.5 days
02:06<Eddi|zuHause>possible, but the wiki may be inconsistent
02:07<andythenorth>Templating should be dumb http://pydanny.blogspot.com/2010/12/stupid-template-languages.html
02:09*Rhamphoryncus switches gnuplot to histogram with a 2.5 step size
02:10<Rhamphoryncus>Hrm. Technically that's still not right. It should be a saw pattern, going up smoothly, then dropping down every 2.5 days
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02:18<Rhamphoryncus>Looks to be a variance of about... 0.2% :)
02:20<Rhamphoryncus>And the peak for passengers seems to be 37.7439. Sorry, that's a factor, not a percent
02:22<Eddi|zuHause>note that newgrfs may nowadays adjust the aging speed, so some newgrfs may provide "long distance" coaches, which screw up your careful calculations
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02:24<SpComb>andythenorth: or nml could include its own variable expansion, include mechanisms, ... :)
02:26<Eddi|zuHause>the most important thing missing is constants and include
02:27<Eddi|zuHause>the second biggest is local identifier scope
02:27<Eddi|zuHause>i.e. extending "templates" to more than just realsprites
02:29<SpComb>but on the other hand those things are hard to get right
02:29<SpComb>I've been playing with puppet's DSL a lot now, and the language is sometimes fairly silly
02:29<SpComb>in that, you end up doing stupid stuff like inline_template("... <%= .. %> ...") to implement your "business logic" at times
02:30<SpComb>because the DSL itself doesn't have anything like looping constructs for processing arrays, whereas the templates can use arbitrary ruby code
02:30<andythenorth>SpComb: right now, I like that nml doesn't enforce a templating language :)
02:31<andythenorth>it would be useful for new authors if it provided one, but lack of opinion about which suits me right now
02:31<SpComb>andythenorth: so everybody using nml uses a different templating language, making it harder to share code across projects?
02:31<andythenorth>code sharing is over-rated anyway
02:31<SpComb>yarly
02:32<andythenorth>if nml does provide templating, we'd have to decide which ;)
02:32<andythenorth>so might as well try some first
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02:32<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: it was the local scope that started me thinking about $
02:32<SpComb>or stop thinking of it as "templating" and more like "structured language"
02:32<SpComb>"NML modules"
02:33<SpComb>namespaces!
02:33<andythenorth>FIRS is full of variadic macros, which if you analyse them are simply defining an identifier which should be local
02:33<andythenorth>THIS_ID(tile) etc
02:33<andythenorth>after you've seen that 50 times in one file, you realise it could just (literally) be written as $
02:33<andythenorth>it contains zero information
02:34<andythenorth>if you were smart enough you could get rid of it entirely in things like industry layouts, and just use implicit assumption
02:34<SpComb>I've never actually seen any NML code, so I'm just talking :)
02:34<andythenorth>tilelayout tilelayout_fertiliser_plant_3 {
02:34<andythenorth> 0, 1: THIS_ID(tile);
02:34<andythenorth>}
02:34<andythenorth>might as well be written
02:34<andythenorth>tilelayout tilelayout_fertiliser_plant_3 {
02:34<andythenorth> 0, 1; }
02:34<SpComb>but writing python code to generate your NML code doesn't sound right either
02:35<andythenorth>I don't like the generator I've written
02:35<andythenorth>generators are explosive
02:35<andythenorth>dumb templating of code is awesome
02:35<SpComb>"dumb" templating involves some "smart" code to control the templating
02:36<SpComb>at which point half of your set is written as python code and you never see any NML
02:36<andythenorth>nml is 'just' output
02:36<andythenorth>:)
02:36<SpComb>it doesn't have to be
02:37<SpComb>it's already one level of meta (it generates grfcodec input?) - adding another level of meta on top of the meta.. hmm :)
02:37<andythenorth>SpComb: seems fine to me :)
02:38<andythenorth>database -> controller -> template -> xhtml + css -> rendered by browser -> jquery madness -> final result
02:38<andythenorth>is my daily world
02:38<andythenorth>config data -> build set -> nml -> compile seems ok to me
02:39<SpComb>set *code* + data -> nml
02:39<andythenorth>hmm
02:39<SpComb>is where it goes wrong, imo
02:40<andythenorth>I agree, but what to do about it?
02:40<SpComb>dunno, but if you wanted everyone to use NML, it'd be nice to see people... writing NML
02:40<SpComb>-> make NML smarter
02:41<SpComb>but maybe this is the point where I should just keep quiet, because I don't know anything about NML
02:42<andythenorth>:)
02:42<andythenorth>you'll only end up having to write code if you keep talking :)
02:44<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: the point is not to force people writing nml. in the end, it's much easier to just put values into a table
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02:45<andythenorth>SpComb: currently my pipeline for BANDIT (it's amusingly convoluted I know) is:
02:46<andythenorth>vehicle data in object database on the web -> python cms -> python page templates rendering html with <pre> tag -> copy + paste to filesystem -> python generator script -> c pre-processor defines, includes and #if -> nml -> result
02:46<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause has google docs -> tsv -> python generator -> c pre-processor defines -> nml -> result
02:46<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: do you curl the data from google, or manually copy and paste?
02:47<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the exporting from google is done manually
02:47<Eddi|zuHause>file -> save as -> text (tsv)
02:47<andythenorth>didn't want to use the API?
02:48<SpComb>huh, sounds arcane
02:48<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: a) didn't bother, and b) doing that automatically may result in incomplete/temporary stuff bleeding in
02:48<SpComb>why not nml -> tsv -> google docs/whatever? :)
02:49<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: ???
02:49<SpComb>or is this a case of "artists must be able to add new vehicles directly via click click"?
02:49<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: this is a case of "i want to avoid copy-pasting 600 times
02:50<andythenorth>SpComb: in my case I can't be bothered to learn to parse tsv, I know how to get data out of an object database
02:51<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: this is what the table looks like: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkXAVZqXTFQxdHM3UlpWM1hPZWpfeTlkdnZsMldjSkE&hl=de#gid=0
02:51<andythenorth>I want to decouple data from how the data is structured
02:51<andythenorth>i.e. not fooling with formatting and crap for data structures
02:51<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: now imagine i'm adding a new column, like recently the vehicle running cost
02:52<andythenorth>you just add a column and put the figures in
02:52<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: if it weren't a table, i would have to edit like 600 files
02:52<andythenorth>manually
02:52<SpComb>magic
02:53<SpComb>simple solution: add google docs online import capability directly to openttd, you just add a http:// url instead of a .grf file!
02:53<Eddi|zuHause>that's just crazytalk
02:53<andythenorth>I'm halfway there :P
03:02<andythenorth>SpComb: so any ideas how to make nml smarter? :D
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03:10<SpComb>nope
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03:13<Rhamphoryncus>Ouch. It'd only take me around 3-4 years to recoup the cost of scrapping my short-hop train and replacing it with an industrial tram
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03:18<andythenorth>hmm
03:19<andythenorth>I should just declare a python class truck
03:19<andythenorth>then extend it
03:19<andythenorth>then render it
03:19<andythenorth>maybe
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04:05<andythenorth>class truck
04:05<andythenorth>fifth_wheel_truck inherits truck
04:05<andythenorth>class trailer
04:05<andythenorth>etc
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04:41<dihedral>hello
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09:12<@Belugas>hello
09:13*Belugas is going to stay at the door of best Buy tomorrow, waiting of them to open. Transformer Prime should be avaialbe
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09:20<andythenorth>dedication
09:26<@Belugas>no...
09:26<@Belugas>obsession
09:26<Eddi|zuHause>this is getting creepy
09:29<@Belugas>...
09:30<@Belugas>damned you Eddi|zuHause... now, I have to find where is Creeping Death
09:30<@Belugas>Metallica that id
09:30<@Belugas>-d+s
09:32*andythenorth wants to stop doing current job and start writing python templates for nml
09:32<andythenorth>current job is writing python templates :P
09:34<@Belugas>it's the subject that is boring, i'd say :)
09:36<andythenorth>nah it's fun
09:36<andythenorth>we just sold more stuff
09:36<andythenorth>but nml is bugging me :P
09:37<@peter1138>herpaderp
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09:44<@Belugas>yuo mean... tempting you?
09:44<@Belugas>obsessing you?
09:44<@Belugas>calling you?
09:45<andythenorth>dedicating me?
09:45<andythenorth>:P
09:45<@Belugas>hem... yes?
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09:47*Hirundo ponders inline python in NML
09:48<andythenorth>Hirundo: +1
09:49<andythenorth>or - have no opinion on a templating engine
09:49<andythenorth>but don't block any
09:49<andythenorth>FWIW I'm going to try rewriting BANDIT (again) with chameleon templating
09:49<andythenorth>because I know it and it's robust and not too clever
09:50<Eddi|zuHause>hm... weirdness: a gamescript-debug window popped up during game start, and now it's blocked by the main toolbar, i can't close or move it
09:50<andythenorth>Hirundo: I had pretty good results yesterday testing pythons built in Template module $ replacement
09:50<andythenorth>anyway, bbl
09:50*andythenorth has to go brief lawyers
09:50<andythenorth>very dull
09:50<andythenorth>wonder if I'll get biscuits?
09:50<@peter1138>BIKKITS
09:51<andythenorth>Hirundo: http://chameleon.repoze.org/docs/latest/ <- ignore the comments about html/xml, it's useful without those
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09:51<Hirundo>andythenorth: what about something like .. item template foo(param1, param2) .... item bar extends foo(42, 31)
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10:01<@planetmaker>Hirundo, templates for items? Sounds.... tasty
10:01<@peter1138>ah... the yes album
10:01<@planetmaker>and for switches, please ;-)
10:02<@planetmaker>probably even more important
10:04<Hirundo>I agree switch blocks blocks can be tiresome to write, but I'm not sure if switch templates are the best solution
10:05<@Terkhen>hello :)
10:05<Hirundo>switch in itself is a too nfo-ish construct IMHO
10:05<Hirundo>too limited, requires too many quirks to get things done with
10:08<@planetmaker>hm. if's basically a case construct in other languages. Not sure it's nfo-ish
10:09<Hirundo>Imagine writing C++/whatever with nothing but switch-statements to work with
10:09<@planetmaker>of course it could be replaced by a real function-like thing ^^
10:09<Hirundo>Indeed :-)
10:09<@planetmaker>like then in the callback block: default: graphics_switch
10:10<@planetmaker>and there if (year < 1990) return image1; case (position) { 0: return image2; 1: return image3; return image4; }
10:10<@planetmaker>feasible. But... much harder to parse, I guess
10:10<@planetmaker>or rather harder to validate
10:12<Hirundo>if graphics_switch is a function that accepts parameters, you have a lot of templating power
10:12<@planetmaker>but a template function like function yearswitch(img1,img2, img3) { case (year) { 0 .. 1990: return img1; 1991..2000: return img2; return img3; } }
10:12<@planetmaker>would be nice
10:12<Hirundo>exactly
10:12<@planetmaker>:-)
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10:36<Eddi|zuHause>hm.. the ET831/ET87 sparks from the wrong place...
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10:42<JYHAD>JYHAD
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10:53<Eddi|zuHause>Gesundheit.
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12:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23857 /trunk/known-bugs.txt: -Document [FS#4997]: some SDL misbehaviour
12:46<Mazur>Back.
12:47<@Rubidium>side
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12:49<Eddi|zuHause># backe, backe Kuchen, der Bäcker hat gerufen
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14:03<Eddi|zuHause>crazy feature request: allow vehicles to be length 0
14:04<andythenorth>why?
14:05<Eddi|zuHause>fewer headaches when refitting for different amount of wagons
14:05<andythenorth>exactly
14:06<Eddi|zuHause>e.g. the A2/ETA177 has two end parts of length 7, and an optional middle part of length 7
14:06<Eddi|zuHause>length 7 vehicles are currently implemented as 2/3/2
14:07<Eddi|zuHause>so i have an articulated vehicle of 9 parts, 2/3/2+2/3/2+2/3/2
14:07-!-HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6D52B.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
14:08<Eddi|zuHause>it would be way easier to code this as 2/3/2+0/0/0+2/3/2 instead of 2/1/1+1/1/1+2/3/2, and reworking the var 61/62 checks
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14:10<Eddi|zuHause>there might be guards to disallow <1 length for the front vehicle
14:11<Eddi|zuHause>which might otherwise make the vehicle inaccessible in the depot
14:13<Eddi|zuHause>there can't possibly be non-spam behind a topic "Research - History - Politics - Licenses - AI - Econimics"
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14:15<@Alberth>request a lock of the topic :)
14:16<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: but to report it, i first have to open it
14:17<@Alberth>actually it is non-spam, just the usual "I want to expand the game to <topic> areas"
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14:17<@planetmaker>I think I approved the posting ;-)
14:18<@planetmaker>approved as in "allowed it to show in the forums"
14:18<@planetmaker>not the contents ;-)
14:18<@Alberth>yeah, but it won't go anywhere :)
14:19<@planetmaker>it's the suggestions forum after all
14:19-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fd400.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd
14:19<@planetmaker>and obviously he never tried ECS or FIRS. Hasn't heart about bribing. Never heart of goal scripts ;-)
14:19<@Alberth>sure, not a problem to post suggestions there, even if they are completely useless :)
14:20<@Alberth>or infra-structure costs :p
14:20<@planetmaker>yeah :-)
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14:20<@Alberth>Although I must admit I haven't used them either ;)
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14:22<@planetmaker>oh, and he isn't aware that it's also up to him to make a better train AI ;-)
14:22<@planetmaker>Though IMHO the most daring statement is "More micromanaging will make players cherish (...)"
14:22<@planetmaker>I'll not subscribe to that ;-)
14:22<@Alberth>I pondered to post about that, but in the end could not be bothered to hit 'reply'
14:22<@planetmaker>hehe. You neither?
14:23<@Alberth>I am sure someone will tell him about AI's :)
14:24<@planetmaker>:-)
14:24<@Alberth>maybe tomorrow or Sunday, if nobody did, and I am terribly bored :)
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14:29<@Alberth>I am somewhat pondering about adding warnings for the user about things he might miss
14:29<@Alberth>For example, not being able to build anything for X months
14:29<@Alberth>Not being able to transport some type of cargo
14:30<@planetmaker>how do you mean?
14:30<@Alberth>Forgetting to refit, so he attempts to load non-existing cargo at some station
14:30<@planetmaker>you mean a kind of mentor which checks the sanitiy of actions?
14:30<@Alberth>well, I load FIRS but default vehicles -> I cannot transport EMNS
14:30<@planetmaker>ah, newgrf sanity
14:30<@planetmaker>yes
14:31<@planetmaker>That will need sandbox testing in the newgrf dialogue
14:31<@planetmaker>and that makes much sense
14:31<@planetmaker>I think frosch123 has some probably more details ideas there...
14:32<andythenorth>Alberth: sounds like grf-topia?
14:32<@Alberth>at the moment, I am doing these things in-game
14:32<@Alberth>andythenorth: it does?
14:32<andythenorth>¿ quak
14:32<@planetmaker>what it needs is: testing each vehicle type (train, road, water, air) whether it can transport all cargos
14:32<frosch123>http://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/NewGRF_Configuration_in_Utopia <- :p
14:32<@planetmaker>maybe air can be skipped
14:33<frosch123>we need to decouple newgrf.cpp from the rest of ottd
14:33<Eddi|zuHause>"lower-saxony: state attorney says: you may call the president a liar"
14:33<@Alberth>I was pondering to do it as part of world generation
14:33<frosch123>so you can process a newgrf configuration without affecting pools or other gamestates :)
14:33<@planetmaker>Alberth, yes... though then it's too late
14:33<@Alberth>ah, that's how it is grf-utopia :p
14:34<@planetmaker>imho the grf config dialogue needs a box like "sanity check"
14:34<@planetmaker>but where exactly that check is called is very minor to making it feasible in the first place ;-)
14:34<@Alberth>it reports "you are insane" <OK> with me :p
14:34<@planetmaker>^^ :-P
14:35<frosch123>the only step i did for now was restructuring the temporary variables during newgrf load
14:35<frosch123>i.e. the stuff which is now in _cur
14:36<frosch123>another first step would be to display "your newgrf configuration has conflicts" if the number of newgrfs is > 20
14:36<@Alberth>I am blissfully unaware of what _cur contains :p
14:36<frosch123>Alberth: it's even commented :p
14:36<frosch123>GrfProcessingState
14:36<@Alberth>ok, so it may be penetrable for me too :)
14:37<Eddi|zuHause>possibly it should be completely decoupled from global variables
14:37<@Alberth>(20:40:48) frosch123: another first step would be to display "your newgrf configuration has conflicts" if the number of newgrfs is > 20 <-- much easier solution, just reduce the limit to 19 :D
14:37<frosch123>basically i want an interface between newgrf.cpp and the outside world :p
14:37<Eddi|zuHause>so you create like an object NewGRFContext()
14:37<@Alberth>sounds like a good step indeed
14:40<@Alberth>and a whole lot more complexity :p
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14:42<frosch123>alternatively we can execute openttd again as childprocess and pass the newgrf config via commandline :p
14:44<@Alberth>good, cmdline at windows still limited at 128 characters? :)
14:45<Eddi|zuHause>wasn't it 256?
14:45<frosch123>well, we can also use stdin and stdout
14:45<@Alberth>could be, it has been > 10 years I last used Win*
14:45<frosch123>if we compile win binaries as console applications
14:45<frosch123>255 would sound like a nice dos number
14:46<Eddi|zuHause>it's probably >15 years since i tried long command lines the last time
14:46<Eddi|zuHause>i DID hit the limit in DOS back then
14:48<frosch123>i also hit in on linux
14:49<frosch123>sometimes rm * does not work, if there are too many files in the directiory
14:49<frosch123>e.g. /tmp
14:49<frosch123>bash has a limit of 32k arguments or so
14:51<Eddi|zuHause>looks like the DOS limit is 127
14:58<Eddi|zuHause>my DOS 5.0 manual says: "Sie können beliebig viele Befehle in eine einzige Zeile eingeben, vorausgesetzt, daß die Gesamtzeilenlänge 128 nicht überschreitet."
14:59<Eddi|zuHause>apparently, you could separate several commands by pressing ctrl+t
15:00<frosch123>sounds like dos :p
15:01<frosch123>1) implement a shell that can execute binaries
15:01<frosch123>2) allow adding arguments to commands using / to separate the command and the arguments (no space)
15:02<frosch123>3) add directories to your filesystem and use \ because / is already used for command/argument separation
15:02<@Alberth>in particular since /was already used for unix :)
15:03<frosch123>it's all the fault of us date format
15:03<@Belugas>good for him :) One of the devs in here just gave resignation. He's going for a better job. Happy for him, sad for us. he's been here for 10 years. I've trained him, worked with him and had great time doing so
15:04<frosch123>if they would not use such a silly character like / for date separation, it would be not such a popular key on the us keyboard
15:04<Eddi|zuHause>how do you explain the usage of ~ in win95 then? :)
15:04<frosch123>and as such it would not have been used for arguments, or searching in various viewers or crappy - yet popular - editors
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15:05<@Alberth>Belugas: openttd dev resigning? :o
15:05<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: oh, i forgot to mention
15:06<@Alberth>usually they just leave :)
15:06<frosch123>dos used a normal character to prefix filenames in the filesystem if the files were deleted
15:06<frosch123>i think it was a "." (cannot remember)
15:06<frosch123>later they wanted to use the character in filenames, so they added another speical symbol to represent the "." (or whatever it was)
15:07<Eddi|zuHause>hm, don't remember that
15:07<Eddi|zuHause>i always believed it was a <0x20 character
15:07<frosch123>it's really impressive how dos is screwed up, though they only copied features from unix and wang, while trying to make it simpler; but still adding the stuff later
15:08<frosch123>dpmi is another great story :p
15:08<Eddi|zuHause>oh dpmi caused great fun
15:08<frosch123>dpmi 0.9 was a pre-release which needed shipping early. it contained several low level functions which should not be accessible for normal applications
15:09<@Belugas>naaa work@work resigning, Alberth
15:09<Eddi|zuHause>with buggy loaders in commercial games
15:09<frosch123>1.0 then removed those functions. but since applications were already using them, it was dropped and 0.9 remained active
15:17<frosch123>ok, wiki prooves me wrong. it was not the "." character which marked deleted files
15:17<frosch123>but some >80h character; so it also became important when extending filenames beyond ascii
15:17<frosch123>"0x05 means, the character is actually 0xE5" :p
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15:18<Eddi|zuHause>err, right :p
15:19<Eddi|zuHause>it was somewhat different in Novell DOS, there you could restore files with the complete name, instead of guessing what the first character was
15:19<frosch123>yeah, novell dos reps. drdos was a lot better
15:19<@SmatZ>[21:09:19] <frosch123> 1.0 then removed those functions. but since applications were already using them, it was dropped and 0.9 remained active
15:20<@SmatZ>^^^ interesting knowledge, I was never aware of that
15:20<frosch123>all drivers and such had a lot smaller memory footprint
15:20<@SmatZ>I thought it just never reachedthe "stable" state
15:20<frosch123>sad was though that lots of games screwed up when they could not find mscdex
15:20<frosch123>so somewhen i copied nwcdex to mscdex :p
15:20<Eddi|zuHause>hehe :)
15:21<Eddi|zuHause>i never properly got my CD drive to work...
15:21<frosch123>SmatZ: the dos release cycles were so long, that is was common that applications worked around bugs, and then relied on the buggy behaviour; so it was not possible to fix the original bug without breaking stuff... which would then be considered a bug :p
15:22<Eddi|zuHause>my tower was so screwed up, you had to lay it down because the 5 1/4" slots were vertical
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15:22<Eddi|zuHause>and i already had 2 HDDs, so i would have to disconnect one
15:22<frosch123>well, "release cycle" is maybe the wrong word. i mean you did not update your os regulary, but kept it on the machine when bought
15:22<Eddi|zuHause>and i never figured out how to use the CD port on the sound card
15:23<frosch123>oh yeah, i think my first sound card had like 3 different connectors for various non-atapi cdroms :p
15:24<Eddi|zuHause>yup
15:24<Eddi|zuHause>but none of them worked with the drive
15:24<Eddi|zuHause>or it needed special drivers which i didn't have
15:24<frosch123>hmm, actually let's see whether the ralph brown intlist is still maintained :)
15:25<Eddi|zuHause>and there was no internet to get drivers
15:25<+michi_cc>I wonder just who came up with the idea to add cdroms to sound cards and not proper storage adapters.
15:25<frosch123>no idea either, i would assume they were only used for audio
15:26<frosch123>in the early days there were such weird things like video or image cds
15:26<frosch123>everyone invented his own format to burn on cds :p
15:26<+michi_cc>It's not as if PCs didn't already had one or more of the different floppy and hdd connectors.
15:26<Eddi|zuHause>there's a separate audio connector
15:27<+michi_cc>Yeah, my first cd drive still had play/stop and skip buttons on the front.
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15:28<Eddi|zuHause>it had even TRIPLE SPEED!
15:30<frosch123>then you had one before me
15:30<frosch123>i already had quad speed :p
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15:40<@Alberth>michi_cc: but thsoe floppy/hdd things were parallel, not serial
15:51<Eddi|zuHause>MAN ... the edit history of google docs is FUCKING USELESS!
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15:55<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: google docs is a half-done solution
15:55<andythenorth>or half-assed
15:55<andythenorth>I can't decide yet which
15:55<andythenorth>but excel kicks it's ass in so many respects
15:55<andythenorth>it's / its /s
15:57<@planetmaker>on the coast of being bloated ;-)
16:01<Rhamphoryncus>Google docs has the advantage of being online. Mostly easy to share with people. That's all it has though.
16:02<@planetmaker>yes. It also has IMHO the better interface than the online version of excel
16:02<Rhamphoryncus>there's.. an online excel?
16:03<@planetmaker>IIRC I once saw one... I don't recall the URL
16:05<@planetmaker>https://skydrive.live.com <-- Rhamphoryncus
16:06<@planetmaker>it needs login and stuff, though
16:06<@planetmaker>though one can share links similar like google docs
16:06-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@host101-141-dynamic.31-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd
16:06<@planetmaker>w/o login
16:07<Wolf01>hello
16:07*Rhamphoryncus nods
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16:14<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23858 /trunk/ (7 files in 2 dirs): -Change [FS#5003]: some updates and improvements of the base font (PaulC)
16:16<andythenorth>ho ho ho
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>ah, so "skydrive" is a microsoft product...
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>that explains the extensive "product placement"
16:20<Rhamphoryncus>"it sounds cool and it's kinda.. cloud-ish.." -- Microsoft marketer picking the name
16:21<Eddi|zuHause>do we have roman numerals in the ¹²³ fashion in openttd?
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>particularly an I
16:22<@Rubidium>not Roman
16:22<@Rubidium>except...
16:22<@Rubidium>is there an unicode codepoint for it?
16:23<@Rubidium>ah... there is
16:23<@Rubidium>just not in superscript
16:24<@Rubidium>you could (simply) add the glyphs you need in your NewGRF
16:24-!-TGYoshi_ [~TGYoshi@86.81.146.146] has quit [Quit: Popidopidopido]
16:24<Eddi|zuHause>we could offer a {SUPERSCRIPT} tag and write it in small font
16:25<Rhamphoryncus>ahaha, Qalculate has a RNG in it.. and since the calculator is symbol the random number is irrational :D
16:25<@Rubidium>or just make the glyphs you provide superscripty ;)
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>there's only a superscript i
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>not a superscript I
16:27<Eddi|zuHause>have an example that adds a glyph in a newgrf?
16:28<@Rubidium>/trunk/media/extra_grf/chars.nfo
16:29<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: got three options already here: ᴵ ᴵ ᶦ
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>where?
16:31<@Rubidium>http://lmgtfy.com/?q=unicode+superscript&l=1
16:34<@Rubidium>don't forget to scroll down to the "other superscript and subscript characters" section
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>i don't find these in kcharselect
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>but honestly, their search kinda sucks
16:35<andythenorth>ho ho ho
16:37<__ln__>merry christmas, andythenorth
16:41<frosch123>1D35 seems to be one of those
16:41<Eddi|zuHause>hm, so U+1D35 could be the "right one"
16:41<frosch123>:p
16:43<Eddi|zuHause>and U+2C7D for V
16:56<andythenorth>oh oh oh
16:57<andythenorth>hm hm hm
17:00*andythenorth is sad
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17:01<andythenorth>anyone got a favourite python templating module that can handle repeats
17:01<andythenorth>but not mako
17:01<andythenorth>?
17:02<@Rubidium>cobra?
17:02<Eddi|zuHause>regexp :p
17:02<@Rubidium>monty?
17:03*andythenorth suspects mako is the correct solution for nml templating
17:03<andythenorth>but I don't know it
17:04<andythenorth>and it looks dangerously powerful
17:09<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r23859 /trunk/src/order_cmd.cpp: -Fix: Inserting conditional orders for ships checked the wrong orders wrt. maximum distance.
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17:17<andythenorth>nml doesn't care about extra newlines in switch blocks?
17:17<@Alberth>it's a context-free parser, so it shouldn't
17:17<andythenorth>can I rely on that persisting?
17:18<andythenorth>it will make butt-ugly code, but it's a limitation of the templater I'm using
17:18<@Alberth>ply is not likely to go away anytime soon :)
17:18<andythenorth>I can have extra newlines
17:18<andythenorth>or loc > 80 char long in some cases
17:18<andythenorth>xor
17:19<@Alberth>ply doesn't mind either/both
17:19<andythenorth>great
17:19<andythenorth>smells like the wrong templater to me though :P
17:19<andythenorth>although I can't see how others would handle it differently
17:19<Eddi|zuHause>CPP inserts plenty of newlines
17:19<andythenorth>if I write newlines in a template, I'd usually need them respected
17:19<andythenorth>just occasionally it would be useful to not
17:20<Eddi|zuHause>any #if/#ifdef will result in lots of empty lines if the condition is not met
17:20<@Alberth>that's the mess with templates; they tend to use the same newline character both for output and for template formatting :p
17:20<andythenorth>indeed
17:21<andythenorth>and not doing that just litters template with magic characters
17:21<Eddi|zuHause>just escape the newlines :)
17:21<@Alberth>which lead to ditching all those template stuff at work, for me
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17:21<andythenorth>Alberth: yesterday I got some nice results with python's default Template class and $ ${} substiution
17:21<andythenorth>which means no deps
17:22<andythenorth>but today I have been trying chameleon because I know it
17:22<@Alberth>unfortunately, I use Java at work :)
17:22<andythenorth>ho
17:22<Eddi|zuHause>Java, the master of all bloatware, doesn't have a useful template library?
17:22*Rhamphoryncus doesn't see how a trainer mech would help with templating ;)
17:23<frosch123>aren't templates part of jave 6?
17:23<frosch123>*java
17:24<frosch123>(resp. 2.6 if you use the traditional numbering)
17:24<Wolf01>"I used to be a captain like you, but then I took a lifeboat in the knee."
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17:24<andythenorth>hmm
17:24<andythenorth>chameleon might be overkill
17:24*andythenorth shows restraint, unusually
17:25<andythenorth>but it means can do stuff like ${foo_string.upper()} or whatever
17:25<andythenorth>and also repeat lines trivially
17:26<andythenorth>cookie for first person to tell me result of this: <tal:test repeat="test_repeat (1,2,3)"> ${repeat.test_repeat.number}</tal:test>
17:27<andythenorth>it's a slightly dumb example
17:27<@Alberth>frosch123: I don't know, the stuff I tried was supposed to be good for converting models (a collection of objects) to text. However, the manual stated that if you used it for eg Java, you better used the Java formatter afterwards.... which makes you wonder how you'd make such a formatter in Java :p
17:28<@Alberth>s/eg/eg generating/
17:28<andythenorth>less dumb: <tal:test repeat="test_repeat ('cat', 'mouse', 'dog')"> ${test_repeat}</tal:test>
17:29<@Alberth>good night all
17:30<andythenorth>bye Alberth
17:31<andythenorth>ho ho ho
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18:00<Wolf01>'night
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18:00<frosch123>night
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18:05<andythenorth>ho ho ha
18:05*andythenorth adventures in templates
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18:07<Eddi|zuHause>anyone ever wrote an adventure in sed?
18:07<Eddi|zuHause>i've seen sokoban in sed
18:08<andythenorth>Template("${go}", "north")
18:08*andythenorth wonders if it's total overkill to create each vehicle as a python object
18:08<andythenorth>but it's kind of neat
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18:11<andythenorth>I could almost as well stick dicts in a list though
18:14<Mazur>Making this chart does special things to one's mind. I'm seeing Main Grills, where I make hamburgers, Diary Farms where teenage girls secretively write, and Adorable Farms.
18:14<andythenorth>you need a better font ;D
18:15<@planetmaker>lol
18:15<Mazur>There are more of those. :-)
18:15<__ln__>http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/spanish-airline-spanair-runs-out-of-funds-to-cease-operating/2012/01/27/gIQApt2zVQ_story.html
18:15<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i'm having dicts in a dict
18:16<andythenorth>safer
18:16*andythenorth will now rewrite BANDIT for the n(?)th time
18:16<andythenorth>this is fun
18:17<andythenorth>nml saves so much time it can be wasted on ever-better templating
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18:27<Mazur>Btw, did you guys choose these particular colours for the chain widgets?
18:27<Mazur>And the small map, of course.
18:28<@planetmaker>which particular colour?
18:29<@planetmaker>you mean for the individual cargos and industries?
18:29<andythenorth>I chose them
18:29<@planetmaker>they were iirc chosen such that it remains somewhat distinguishable on the minimap
18:29<@planetmaker>but ^^
18:29<andythenorth>minimap comes in multiple colours also
18:30<andythenorth>hmm
18:30<Mazur>Because some colours get used a lot, offwhite 5 times, I think, and yellow or near yellow, I forget which, 4 times.
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18:30<andythenorth>yup
18:31<andythenorth>colours that work in town are very limited
18:31<Mazur>It would be preferable, I think, to have distinct individual colours.
18:31*Mazur nods.
18:31<andythenorth>there are limits
18:32<Mazur>I nose.
18:32<andythenorth>~49 industries
18:32<Mazur>I nose, very mch so.
18:32<andythenorth>;)
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18:33<Mazur>Having just made boxes for all of them.
18:33<andythenorth>:D
18:33<Mazur>And shoving them every which way.
18:33<Mazur>I can ount the diverse cargoes as well.
18:33*andythenorth wonders if python args for a call can be done with list comprehension on a dict
18:33<Mazur>31
18:34<andythenorth>i = x for ????
18:34*Mazur nose no OO programming.
18:34<andythenorth>i = dict[i] for i in dict?
18:34<andythenorth>nah
18:35<andythenorth>nonsense
18:35<Mazur>Someone will have made a dict_lookup()
18:35<andythenorth>python encourages writing out explicit args for calls
18:36<@Yexo>andythenorth: dict.items() or something like that
18:36*andythenorth looks
18:37<andythenorth>should work
18:37<@Yexo>dict.keys() or dict.values() if you only want the keys or the values
18:37<@Yexo>not sure what you want to achieve though
18:38<Mazur>How many sugar beats to the minute are there in a sugar rush?
18:38<andythenorth>got a template that gets vars as args
18:38<andythenorth>template(foo='bar', ham='eggs') etc
18:38<andythenorth>I could get all the args from a dict
18:39<andythenorth>or I could not bother
18:39<andythenorth>it's not important, just fooling around
18:39<@Yexo>def myfunc(*args, **kwargs):
18:39<@Yexo>kwargs is a dict with all keywords arguments
18:39<andythenorth>how handy
18:40<andythenorth>the interesting thing is that I think there are >1 viable routes for python templating nml
18:40<@Yexo>if you want to pass those to another function you could do it manually or use: otherfunc(**dict)
18:40<andythenorth>I'm going to eliminate cpp from BANDIT
18:41<andythenorth>the only difficult thing so far is deciding how much code generation is acceptable
18:41<andythenorth>and how much to just have *lots* of nml switches written out longhand
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18:42<andythenorth>I should have results by Monday maybe
18:43<andythenorth>delay is due to baby duties, not difficulty of problem
18:44<Mazur>Apropos nothing: http://5ed04965.cm-7-1b.dynamic.ziggo.nl/pics/FIRS_chart-0.2.0.png
18:44*Mazur did not know babies had duties?
18:45<Mazur>How muhc is the import tax?
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18:45<andythenorth>your entire life's worth
18:45<andythenorth>hi Snail_
18:45*Mazur is on fire!
18:45<Snail_>hi andy
18:46*Mazur is funnier than a turd on a roller-coaster.
18:46<@planetmaker>Mazur: why are bauxite and iron ore mine switched?
18:46<Mazur>Are they?
18:46<@planetmaker>and forest and sawmill should be left of biorefinery
18:47<@planetmaker>Mazur: not in colour or so. But placement
18:47<@planetmaker>they should be switched for dis-entanglement
18:48<Mazur>Look again.....
18:48<Mazur>;-)
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18:48<andythenorth>http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-16747208
18:50<Mazur>... which is why I chose this toll to make the initial chart.,
18:50<Mazur>tool
18:51<andythenorth>is there a python equivalent of #include?
18:51<Mazur>4 seconds and it's fixed.
18:51<andythenorth>import seems overkill
18:51<andythenorth>eval(file.read())
18:51<andythenorth>!danger!
18:55<Rhamphoryncus>from foo import *
18:55<andythenorth>ok
18:55<Rhamphoryncus>Generally discouraged, yet quietly done anyway in various circumstances
18:56<andythenorth>I want to use dicts that are in external files
18:56<andythenorth>e.g. they're data structures that should be separate from code
18:57<Rhamphoryncus>There are other methods, depending on what exactly you're doing. setattr() loop on the module object, direct insertion into the globals dict (if you were using exec())
18:59*Mazur worlks, Glass Works, Iron Works, Brick Works.
18:59<andythenorth>looks like importing a dict just works
18:59<andythenorth>too simple
19:00<andythenorth>now all I need is a quick way to __init__ a class populating values (args) from a dict
19:01<andythenorth>keys are know
19:01<andythenorth>know / known
19:01<andythenorth>I guess I just write it out
19:01<andythenorth>foo = passed_dict['foo']
19:02<Rhamphoryncus>Do I have this right? 100 km/h is ~3.6 tiles/day?
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19:07<andythenorth>hmm
19:07<andythenorth>how do I instantiate a python class with an arbitrary name?
19:07<andythenorth>i.e x = myClass() gives me an object named x
19:07<andythenorth>but I need x to be a variable
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19:10<Rhamphoryncus>same
19:10<Rhamphoryncus>myClass already is a variable
19:10<Rhamphoryncus>oh wait, misread you
19:10<Rhamphoryncus>creating locals like that is generally a Really Bad Idea. What's the context?
19:12<+michi_cc>Rhamphoryncus: Should be right. 128 km/h-ish (1 km/h-ish == 1.6 mph) equals one tile every 16 ticks.
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19:14<Rhamphoryncus>Well I've gone and immortalized it on the wiki.
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19:43<@Terkhen>good night
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23:18<Rhamphoryncus>So many face palms in this game. Forgetting to refit a vehicle. Forgetting to tell them to transfer. Forgetting to tell the plane to leave the hangar...
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---Logclosed Sat Jan 28 00:00:49 2012