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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-01-31

---Logopened Tue Jan 31 00:01:00 2012
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00:59<@Rubidium>whsck: with -ddesync the desync logs are written directly to save/autosave/commands-out.log
01:01<Rhamphoryncus>heya Rubidium
01:11<whsck>Okay, I'll just add it to my bug report but i think its been closed
01:12<@Rubidium>if it's FS#5030, then yes that has been closed
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01:13<@Rubidium>as it's a duplicate of another bug that has been fixed last thursday
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01:40<Rhamphoryncus>Isn't that always the case? :)
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01:54<whsck>Which report did you say was close 0800?
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02:07<whsck>Was FS#5030 that was closed ~ Requested it to be open though
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02:20<Rhamphoryncus>Rubidium: Have you looked at my patch?
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02:26<Rhamphoryncus>A question for the more experienced players: will selecting slower engines, so that they're all the same speed (and not whatever their wagons allow), produce less congestion?
02:28<Rhamphoryncus>otoh, it'd reduce my station ratings
02:34<Eddi|zuHause>if you're crazy enough, you can make a fully timetabled network :)
02:37<Rhamphoryncus>I'd have to make a spreadsheet, pause the game, and apply a start date to every single vehicle
02:37<Eddi|zuHause>suggestion: when autofilling a timetable, record not only the time but also the distance and average speed. then when editing one, recalculate one of the other two to keep it consistent
02:38<Elukka>is there any way to use autofilled timetables without continually micromanaging every train?
02:38<Rhamphoryncus>my plan for a timetable is to calculate a rolling average of the minimum timing, then present it to the user so they can use it when tweaking
02:38<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: timetables are seriously underdeveloped
02:38<Rhamphoryncus>Elukka: not currently. I'm working on yet another patch.
02:38<Elukka>i see
02:39<Elukka>i'd like something that kept trains (and while we're at it, road vehicles) from all bunching up at one end of the line
02:39<Rhamphoryncus>Yup. Two goals: stop clumping and make it fun
02:39<Elukka>but dealing manually with timetables is a bit much
02:40<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: that is possible currently, but quite extensive to set up and may easily break
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02:41<Rhamphoryncus>More aspects to my plan are to automatically swap timings when one vehicle arrives before another as well as having an easier way of respacing the vehicles when you add or remove one
02:42<Eddi|zuHause>Rhamphoryncus: swapping should be easy, since you have an ordered linked list
02:42<Rhamphoryncus>The latter might be part of a broader "route management" window. Have to see how amenable the devs are to my ideas.
02:42<Rhamphoryncus>Eddi|zuHause: conceptually trivial. Turns out navigating the code is the biggest hurdle
02:42<Eddi|zuHause>just make sure the next_shared/prev_shared are in the order of the start dates
02:43<Rhamphoryncus>My previous plan was to make next_shared/prev_shared cyclic, but that breaks saving/loading which accesses them directly (rather than through NextShared/PreviousShared
02:44<Rhamphoryncus>Next issue I've found is timetable_start seems to have nothing to do with maintaining the timing. Rather, lateness_counter does it.
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02:44<Eddi|zuHause>Rhamphoryncus: you should be able to achieve that without changing next_shared
02:44<Eddi|zuHause>just make NextShared return the first item if it's the last
02:45<Rhamphoryncus>That'd break everything else that uses it :)
02:45<Rhamphoryncus>I'm just going to embed that logic in the function that does the swapping. Not too much trouble really.
02:46<Eddi|zuHause>cyclic links are non-trivially to handle, if you have existing code ;)
02:46<Rhamphoryncus>The real problem atm is lateness_counter. I haven't gotten my head around what exact logic to apply to it.
02:48<Eddi|zuHause>if (arrive at first station) lateness_counter += other_start_date-my_start_date;
02:48<Eddi|zuHause>or something
02:48<Rhamphoryncus>That's the end result
02:48<Rhamphoryncus>But first I need to figure out if I am ahead of them :)
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02:50<Eddi|zuHause>hm. yeah. there's a formula for that, but it's really too early :)
02:50<Rhamphoryncus>two cases to handle: previous vehicle is heading to my station and previous vehicle is loading at the previous station. (Any further back and I would have swapped when I arrived at the previous station.)
02:53<Eddi|zuHause>i would only handle this if it already left the previous station
02:54<Rhamphoryncus>I don't think that's right but I can't tell you why ;)
02:54<Rhamphoryncus>However, I should definitely do heading to my station first, worry about the other case later.
02:55<Eddi|zuHause>Rhamphoryncus: imho this swapping check should be run every time a vehicle arrives at the first station
02:56<Rhamphoryncus>afaik there is no first station once the schedule is going
02:56<Rhamphoryncus>And that would be much less responsive if a vehicle breaks down and is overtaken by another
02:57<Eddi|zuHause>Rhamphoryncus: but that might make vehicles use timetable-windows when it's not supposed to
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03:14*andythenorth had dreams of trees
03:17<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: trees are new for me. Is it basically a directed link graph, starting at a single node and arriving at [result] ?
03:17<Rhamphoryncus>were they growing out of your ear?
03:18<Eddi|zuHause>yes, trees are directed graphs.
03:18<Rhamphoryncus>acyclic too
03:18<Eddi|zuHause>there are also undirected trees
03:18<andythenorth>can brances re-converge in your parse tree?
03:19<Eddi|zuHause>then it's not a tree anymore
03:19<andythenorth>in that case I have an optimisation for you
03:19<andythenorth>compile-time visualiser, drawing actual trees in ascii to std-out
03:19<andythenorth>definitely will make CETS more awesome
03:19<Rhamphoryncus>... optimization?
03:20<andythenorth>it will draw a forest while you wait for CETS to compile
03:20<andythenorth>it's a technique from 80s games to cover slow things
03:20<andythenorth>like waiting for tapes to load ;)
03:21<andythenorth>instead of making x faster, adjust people's perception that x is slow :)
03:21<andythenorth>also it's pointless eye candy, therefore worth doing
03:21<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: but since it's nmlc that is slow, i would need t start that in a separate thread
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03:22<andythenorth>maybe run two python processes, parsing the same input, with different output?
03:22<andythenorth>I think it's important...
03:22<Eddi|zuHause>did you get it to run, actually?
03:23<andythenorth>not yet
03:23<Eddi|zuHause>and did you try the modification to
03:23<andythenorth> entry[u"values"] = entry # self-reference
03:24<andythenorth>doesn't work
03:24<Eddi|zuHause>and if you remove that line?
03:24<andythenorth>let's see
03:24<andythenorth>same issue
03:24<andythenorth>I suspect the key that is an empty string personally
03:24<Eddi|zuHause>if "it works", then you should get a line like "function requires X arguments, Y given"
03:25<andythenorth>I still have TypeError: unique() keywords must be strings
03:25<Eddi|zuHause>but even an empty string is a string
03:26<Eddi|zuHause>no idea where the empty string comes from, though
03:28<andythenorth>I tested if len(name) > 0
03:28<andythenorth>makes no difference
03:29<Eddi|zuHause>can you try editing src/table/CETS_Tracking_Table.tsv, in the second line, after "Refit Cost" thre's an empty space, write something there between the two tabs
03:30<andythenorth>I was attempting to add a try: except: to raise the key
03:31<Rhamphoryncus>feature request: if one side of a presignal is going to behave like a normal signal (because there's no exits for it to check), draw that side as a normal signal
03:31<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: ok, I added 'foo', I know get
03:31<andythenorth>UnicodeDecodeError: 'utf8' codec can't decode bytes in position 11-13: invalid data
03:32<andythenorth>let me check excel didn't introduce that though
03:33<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds like something you introduced on saving
03:33<andythenorth>yup, that was excel
03:33<andythenorth>reverted that
03:33<Eddi|zuHause>change to say "windows-1252"
03:33<Eddi|zuHause>on the tracking table
03:33<Eddi|zuHause>or something
03:33<Eddi|zuHause>or just use a normal editor
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03:36<andythenorth>I used a normal editor
03:37<andythenorth>still fails on key(s)
03:37*andythenorth is doing horrible print statements
03:37<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: this is bizarre...
03:38<andythenorth>if I call key = str(key)
03:38<andythenorth>I get KeyError: "(u'DR', u'212')"
03:38<Eddi|zuHause>key is a tuple
03:38<Eddi|zuHause>and that's unrelated to the error
03:39<Eddi|zuHause>the error is during the "**" processing
03:39<Eddi|zuHause>which means the dict is passed as keyword-args
03:39<Eddi|zuHause>but can you try this:
03:40<Eddi|zuHause>in, in the tables.titles = ... line
03:40<Eddi|zuHause>write "map(str, ...)"
03:40<Eddi|zuHause>and the following for-line as well
03:41<Eddi|zuHause>... is "" stuff
03:42<andythenorth>? tables.titles ='\n').split('\t') # second line contains column titles
03:42<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that line
03:43<andythenorth>wrap the rhs in map(
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03:43<Eddi|zuHause>and do the same in the next line
03:43<Eddi|zuHause>enumerate(map(str, ...))
03:47<andythenorth>tra la la
03:47<Rhamphoryncus>Hum, 87% of my trains can travel at 135 km/h. The remaining 13% travel at 104 or 120 km/h. Methods I need to segregate them.
03:47*andythenorth thinks it would be much nicer to watch CETS compile if it drew trees
03:48<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: so did that work?
03:48<andythenorth>I will know when nmlc has finished :P
03:48<andythenorth>should I make some tea while I wait?
03:48<Eddi|zuHause>takes about 3 minutes here
03:49<andythenorth>it's printing lots of length warnings :)
03:49<andythenorth>that prop just changed
03:49<Eddi|zuHause>yes, lots of vehicles have missing stats in the table
03:49<andythenorth>it's the deprecation warning - 'shorten_vehicle' changed to 'length'
03:49<Eddi|zuHause>but the python did not throw any errors anymore?
03:50<andythenorth>python cat says lol
03:50<andythenorth>and it finished compiling
03:50<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: ah, some updated nml feature
03:51<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: that should be an easy fix, but i'm not really bothered right now
03:51<andythenorth>well that was exciting
03:51<andythenorth>easily the most complex python I've ever tried to read
03:52<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: read the output in files like src/pruss/EG531.pnml
03:52<Eddi|zuHause>or 538? don't remember the number
03:52<Eddi|zuHause>one of those, anyway
03:52<andythenorth> found it
03:54<Eddi|zuHause>so... i figure your python has problem with unicode-strings in kwargs
03:54<andythenorth>unicode in python often leads to sadness
03:54*andythenorth will bbl
03:55<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: that should very clearly be a mac-python bug
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04:16<Rhamphoryncus>Is it possible to change the limit on airports per town?
04:18<Eddi|zuHause>enable noise control
04:18<Rhamphoryncus>Does that increase it or reduce it?
04:19<Rhamphoryncus>I'm playing with very few towns so this airport isn't near the town, but still triggers the limit
04:19<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: people say that this unicode thing should be working in 2.7 but not on 2.6 and earlier
04:20<Eddi|zuHause>Rhamphoryncus: in general, it reduces for smaller towns, and may increase for bigger towns
04:20<Rhamphoryncus>ahh okay
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04:26<MNIM>ugh. You know what I really hate?
04:26<MNIM>when you've built a whole network, and then you find out that passenger cars ain't working :S
04:27<Rhamphoryncus>Didn't work. Had to move over 9 tiles in one axis. Kinda odd.
04:27<Rhamphoryncus>MNIM: how do passenger cars not work?
04:27<MNIM>I can't build any
04:28<MNIM>most likely caused by changing GRFs in the scenario.
04:28<Rhamphoryncus>ugh. Crashed plane, 2.5 million liters of backlogged oil gone :/
04:31<Eddi|zuHause>Rhamphoryncus: pro tip: run an advertising campaign to get the rating up
04:31<Rhamphoryncus>oh yeah, thanks
04:32<Rhamphoryncus>artificial deflation meet artificial inflation! :)
04:32<Eddi|zuHause>note that this only works near the town center
04:37<Rhamphoryncus>It's not really, but I'm doing it anyway
04:38<Eddi|zuHause>i think it was 15 tiles for small and 25 tiles for large advertising campaign
04:38<Eddi|zuHause>or similar
04:43<Rhamphoryncus>Either way I'm back up to 85%
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05:26<whsck> Hi, I had a bug report that was closed, while I was gathering the information required, Just wandering how to get it open again?
05:30<@blathijs>whsck: What's the bug number?
05:31<Eddi|zuHause>whsck: have you tried updating to the latest nightly instead?
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05:57<DDR>Pardon, but can anyone help me set up a game which starts in the 1700s?
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05:58<DDR>Horse-and-buggies seem to have disappeared.
05:58<TinoDidriksen>You mean, before locomotives were invented?
06:00<DDR>I'd like to start out with some horses, a couple AI players, and then after a while start up with the trains. 'course, I'd like to have ships as well, but I'd be happy if I could buy *anything* way back when.
06:02<Rhamphoryncus>DDR: you need the right newgrf for that
06:02<DDR>What newgrf is that?
06:02<DDR>I don't know it's name. :(
06:03<Rhamphoryncus>I don't remember, but right now I'm running with tropic refurbishment, egrvts, HEQS, and aviators. You should download them all and try them one by one in a quick one-off to see if it works
06:03<TinoDidriksen>So, wagonways and wooden railroads? Neat.
06:03<Rhamphoryncus>but I'd start with HEQS and egrvts ;)
06:04<andythenorth>HEQS has nothing until about 1870 btw
06:04<DDR>I tried with Tropic Refurbishment, at least, but I haven't tried those others.
06:04<DDR>I might be able to live with 1870.
06:04<Rhamphoryncus>TinoDidriksen: sort of. There's horse-drawn trams, but it the tracks aren't any different
06:05<Rhamphoryncus>then it's egrvts. andythenorth *might* know something about HEQS, hehe
06:05<Rhamphoryncus>I've done some games starting at 1900 and I'm pretty sure I've seen stuff available from 1700
06:05<@Rubidium>whsck: from the savegame I was able to determine what the cause of the desync was, and the savegame+command log you've given after that confirms that I was right. The cause of the desync is the same as FS#5007, so I closed FS#5030 as duplicate.
06:06<DDR>If I ever try my hand at modding OpenTTD, which I might now due to certain developments, I'll try making a Year-0 grf.
06:06<DDR>It'll probably take a few months to play through a whole game, but eyyy, could be good as a one-off.
06:06<@Rubidium>Rhamphoryncus: I've seen it, but that's about it
06:07<Rhamphoryncus>Rubidium: alright
06:07<DDR>One of the things I'll have to do is figure out some way to eliminate unupkept road and whatnot.
06:09<DDR>Or transfer ownership to the company which uses it most.
06:09<DDR>Cities and industries should be more mobile.
06:10<DDR>Climate change would be nice. Hm.
06:10<DDR>Bonus points if I can relate it to the amount of engines used. :P
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06:16<whsck>How do I find the bug report of FS#5007
06:18<@Rubidium>whsck: that bug is already fixed, but there's a search box in the top right of the bug tracker
06:18<whsck>Just wandering so I know how to fix it maybe?~
06:18<@Rubidium>and it's linked from FS#5030's close message
06:19<@Rubidium>whsck: update openttd is the only real solution
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06:21<@Rubidium>as fixing it only server side will make it even more likely that people desync
06:35<@peter1138>i want a plush pintsize
06:48<andythenorth>I want a jabberwocky
06:48<andythenorth>and a ninky nonk
06:48<andythenorth>and a python
06:49<Elukka>a python is very achievable
06:50<Elukka>look at this thing. awwww...
06:50<Elukka>think it's a boa though if memory serves
06:50<andythenorth>snakes are cool
06:51<andythenorth>surprisingly warm
06:51<Noldo>badger badger badger
06:52<Elukka>well, they're about as warm as the environment...
06:53<andythenorth>ambient snake
06:53<Elukka>sounds like a genre
06:53<Elukka>lizards are the same
06:55<Elukka>the kitchen table is pretty much his turf now
06:55<Elukka>the best chillin' place
06:55<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: people say they successfully executed code like mine on python 2.6.7, but some 2.6 even on linux have been seen affected by the problem
06:56<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: in general i'd advise you to update python anyway, but i've commited the str() workaround to CETS
06:56<andythenorth>updating python is possible
06:56<andythenorth>but not now - stuff sometimes breaks
06:57<Elukka>updated python to boa
06:57<Eddi|zuHause>well, if you update to a later 2.6.bugfix release should not affect program's behaviours
06:59<whsck>Am I not up to date with Open TTD then? Is that why i'm desyncing?
07:02<Rhamphoryncus>whsck: He said it's a bug that was fixed last week. So yes, the version you have has the bug, but everybody else you're playing with might have it too; they just didn't trigger it.
07:03<whsck>Ok thank you very much
07:04<whsck>So we'll have to download the stable version or is there a patch for 1.2.0-beta3?
07:05<@planetmaker>whsck, the current stable is older than the testing release of 1.2.0-beta3
07:05<@planetmaker>Only nightly versions are newer. And only those are patched
07:05<Elukka>you have to download a nightly
07:06<@planetmaker>Thus either you play with a nightly (all of you will have to get the same version) or you'll have to wait for 1.2.0-beta4
07:06<whsck>Where can I download a nightly?
07:06<@planetmaker>take a guess.
07:06<@planetmaker>Look at the website
07:06<whsck>thought so :)
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07:11<V453000>the CETS is seriously intending to have 600+ engines? :D
07:12<Eddi|zuHause>not at the same time, if you make your parameter selection careful :)
07:13<V453000>still wondering who is going to draw that many :D
07:13<Elu>yyeaaaaah that's a bit of an issue
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07:13<V453000>oh and it is even in the 12? angles :D
07:13<V453000>or 16?
07:14<Eddi|zuHause>yes. 12 for symmetric, 24 for asymmetric
07:15<Mazur>Or make it once in 3D and capture 12/24 angles of view.
07:16<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: you need to write a pixel generator :P
07:19<Eddi|zuHause>it's difficult enough to mend my mental images into code, but into pixels i pretty much always failed...
07:19<Eddi|zuHause>the closest i got to drawing sensible vehicles is the green template boxes :)
07:19<andythenorth>if you can visualise the output of that generator in your might surprise yourself
07:20<andythenorth>zephryis wrote procedural house generator
07:20<andythenorth>I wonder if you could generate the intermediate angles you require
07:20<andythenorth>from the / or - views
07:20<andythenorth>they won't be seen that frequently, they could bear being lower-quality
07:21<andythenorth>it's probably 'just' a matrix transform
07:21<Eddi|zuHause>that has all kinds of issues with antialiasing and hinting
07:21<andythenorth>don't anti-alias
07:21<Eddi|zuHause>but oberhümer does something like that
07:22<andythenorth>or draw the set as flat texture maps and UV map them onto boxes
07:22<Eddi|zuHause>yes, you can't antialias
07:22<Eddi|zuHause>but that may make some relevant pixels disappear
07:22<andythenorth>manual cleanup after the fact
07:23<Eddi|zuHause>like the pantograph of the EG511
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07:25<Elukka>i still haven't managed a method of making the intermediate views with anything beyond just drawing them
07:27<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: while you're here: recolouring the closed wagon to something white-ish for the refrigerated wagon?
07:27<Elukka>hmm, sure
07:27<Elukka>i should also finish the stake wagon
07:27<Elukka>and do all the rest of them...
07:29<Elukka>this is what happens when you spend too much time staring at a sprite of a certain wagon...
07:34<Eddi|zuHause>and then we need slightly shorter versions for the earlier generation
07:34<Eddi|zuHause>and slightly longer versions for the later generation
07:34<Elukka>1 lu shorter i assume
07:34<Elukka>that's going to take some fiddling
07:35<Eddi|zuHause>i'll make you a table with the exact lengths
07:35<Elukka>i think the longer ones should be a different sprite altogether, at least i can't think of any later wagons with the same shape
07:36<Eddi|zuHause>what you currently draw are the 1910-ish versions, there's mostly similar 1870-ish and 1930-ish versions
07:36<Eddi|zuHause>the 1950-ish DB versions may need something new
07:37<Eddi|zuHause>and then there are 1970-ish versions that are slightly faster, but mostly look the same
07:37<andythenorth>you should do this:
07:37<andythenorth>- make a wagon LH end
07:38<andythenorth>- make a wagon RH end
07:38<andythenorth>- make 4px intermediate sections
07:38<andythenorth>- make 4px door sections
07:38<andythenorth>same for coaches
07:38<andythenorth>you do all angles for the components then just build
07:39<andythenorth>a lot of computational approaches seem to focus on starting from scratch for the whole result, instead of just assembling pre-made modules
07:39<andythenorth>robots are good at putting modules together...
07:39<andythenorth>they're crappy at creative tasks...
07:39<Elukka>well, the current sprite is representative of the G10 and probably a bunch of other models
07:39<Elukka>but don't later wagons usually have round roofs
07:39<andythenorth>that's an optimisation. later :P
07:39<andythenorth>it's about 0.5px different at this scale
07:39<Elukka>plus a brakeman's cab at frame level, and oppeln type has different wheel placement...
07:40<Eddi|zuHause>minor details :)
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07:40<andythenorth>make them from components :P
07:40<andythenorth>Most of the trucks and trailers in BANDIT will be done that way
07:40<Elukka>andy, robots are good at putting modules together but i am no good at making robots :P
07:40<andythenorth>but I'm not smart enough to write code to assemble them, so I'll do it in photoshop by hand
07:40<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause is good at making robots
07:41<andythenorth>it's just feeding a recipe to something that composites images
07:42<Elukka>so you just do modular sprite parts and move them around until it looks like a thing
07:52<Elukka>it's a good thing i already have brakeman's cabs on a separate layer so they're easy to copypaste to another wagon
07:52<Elukka>or remove altogether
07:52<Elukka>they are a lot of pain for a small detail since they make the wagon asymmetric
07:52<Elukka>possibly that's why i haven't seem them in any other grf before :P
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08:09<Eddi|zuHause>DBSet has brakers cab at the last wagon
08:09<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, preliminary vehicle length list:
08:10<Eddi|zuHause>numbers in parentheses are optional for now
08:10<Eddi|zuHause>the * means this is currently in the set, but wrong length
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08:16<Eddi|zuHause>there may be some oddities in there that need to be ironed out in a review
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09:14<andythenorth>Elukka: anything asymmetric gives you 2x the number of sprites :(
09:15<andythenorth>all RVs and ships are asymmetric :(
09:15<andythenorth>you train people have it easy :P
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11:17<Eddi|zuHause>hm... the autoreplace button in the depot could show an error message "no suitible autoreplace rule found"
11:18<andythenorth>autoreplace is a bit magical / untrustworthy right now
11:18<andythenorth>took me years to figure out that button btw
11:18<andythenorth>much pressing of it with no result :P
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11:41<Rhamphoryncus>I used it once. It's a manual autoreplace.. kinda pointless.
11:52<Eddi|zuHause>i always use it
11:52<Eddi|zuHause>the easiest way to make sure only the vehicles you want to get replaced
11:53<Rhamphoryncus>Grouping them isn't easier?
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12:01<Eddi|zuHause>depends on the situation
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13:08<xiong>I've long used path signals. Now I'm running chillpack which has a patch to signal bridges (and I suppose, tunnels). But these are block signals. I find trains wait at the previous path signal while blocks are open.
13:09<xiong>I understand why this is so, I guess. The train is waiting to reserve a path to the next path signal, after the bridge entirely. Is that right? If so, how to fix this?
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13:19<xiong>Hello, Terkhen.
13:19<xiong>Apparently not tunnels. But bridges certainly.
13:26<lugo>xiong: place one block signal in front of and behind any tunnels/bridges which have signals
13:26<xiong>lugo, I'll try that.
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13:34<xiong>Now I'll have to load up that line so the trains follow more closely, see how that goes. Thanks.
13:34<xiong>lugo++ # right on
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13:42<xiong>Yes, that's the solution.
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r23873 /trunk/src/lang/ (6 files): (log message trimmed)
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: simplified_chinese - 1 changes by chenwt0315
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: croatian - 1 changes by VoyagerOne
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: french - 71 changes by OliTTD
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: latvian - 65 changes by Parastais
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: lithuanian - 7 changes by Stabilitronas
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14:17*andythenorth ponders converting FISH to nml
14:24<@Alberth>becoming a nml addict ? :)
14:24<andythenorth>it's compelling
14:24<andythenorth>nml + templating language of your choice
14:25<andythenorth>mako and genshi looked good
14:26*andythenorth is familiar with chameleon so likes it
14:26<andythenorth>is global_constants a good pattern?
14:27<andythenorth>I added it for BANDIT, then noticed nml has same
14:27<andythenorth>(basically a .py file for global vars and such)
14:27<@Alberth>I don't have that many global constants, normally
14:28<@Alberth>and normally 0 global vars :p
14:28<andythenorth>it's for stuff like 'list of cargo classes for fast vehicles' etc
14:29<@Alberth>constants is fine, and with many or large constants it is a sane method to get them out of the way
14:29*andythenorth is mostly concerned with making it easy for other people to hack on
14:29<andythenorth>if I code BANDIT sanely, anyone can hack truck sets on top of it
14:30<andythenorth>it could literally become a web app to make truck newgrfs
14:30<andythenorth>upload pngs, define properties, compile
14:30-!-Wolf01 [] has joined #openttd
14:30<@Alberth>we'll get flooded with trucks! :D
14:30<@Alberth>efenink Wolf01
14:31<andythenorth>I kind of like ALLCAPS for constants, but that conflates with nml built-ins
14:31<andythenorth>maybe just prefix global_
14:32<andythenorth>good point
14:32<andythenorth>pep-8 says CAPS for constants (I think(
14:33-!-Nite [] has joined #openttd
14:33<@Alberth>hi Nite
14:33<Nite>i always get disconnected from servers on ottd1.5
14:34<Nite>the console says: "your computer took too long to join"
14:34<@Alberth>I wrote something FAQ-ish about that :)
14:34<@Alberth>server owner needs to think about this, always tricky :(
14:35<Nite>cant find faq on ... hmmm
14:37<@Alberth> -> manual -> FAQ (last entry at the 'gameplay' text part at the top)
14:37<@Alberth>(-> MP FAQ )
14:37<Nite>ok ty vm
14:37<@Alberth>so indeed, there is no FAQ at :p
14:38<andythenorth>my project has /src where the build script is
14:38<andythenorth>and /sprites/nml where the templates are
14:38<andythenorth>does belong in /src or /sprites/nml ?
14:38<andythenorth>or is this bike-shedding the issue?
14:39<@Alberth>yeah, I fail to understand why source code is below 'sprites' too :)
14:39<andythenorth>I'm not sure how to best set this up
14:39<andythenorth>I also have /scripts :P
14:39<andythenorth>but I don't need to use that
14:39<@Alberth>but /sprites/nml, I think, as it is part of the project, rather than the generic build script stuff
14:40<Nite>sry but the last entry in gamplay faq is "How to get computer opponents (AIs) in my game?"
14:40<andythenorth>I also have where the big dict defining trucks is
14:40<andythenorth>src or sprites/nml for that?
14:40*andythenorth only cares on behalf of others - I'll know anyway
14:40<@Alberth>Nite: MP FAQ (multiplayer/network/whatever it is called)
14:41<@Alberth>andythenorth: keep all project sources at one place would be my advice
14:41<andythenorth>I could just put everything in /src, then put the single generated nml file into sprites/nml
14:41<andythenorth>which is maybe better?
14:42<@Alberth>if you use the layout of our planet builder, that's under sprites/nml afaik
14:42*andythenorth is probably bikeshedding
14:42<Nite>if you mean "People get disconnected while joining, how to fix that?" that doesent help me because i get connected properly
14:42<Nite>then after some time disconnect
14:43<Nite>- did the standard setting of ticks you may lag behing change on 1.5?
14:44*Alberth does not know, I never play MP, so have no idea about those settings
14:44<Nite>- did "max lag time" default changed in 1.5
14:44<Nite>btw: this happens on every server
14:44<@Alberth>what part of "does not know" is not understood?
14:45<Nite>i understood you do not know it! alberth
14:46<@Alberth>(20:39:11) Nite: the console says: "your computer took too long to join" <-- I don't call that connected, but maybe that's just me?
14:47<@Alberth>not sure what else to call it :(
14:47<Nite>look iam connected and can wathc teh game running for less then a minute
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14:48<@Alberth>so likely, while you downloaded the map, the game moved on, you are trying to upload the other changes, but it takes too long, so you get dropped due to having too much lag
14:49<@Alberth>euhm *download even :)
14:50<Nite>the thing is that i never hat this problems before 1.5
14:51<Nite>since 1.5 i cannot connect properly fully or whatever
14:52<Nite>i will look what my stopwatch says
14:54<Nite>ok one and a half minute - then "computer took to long to yoin"
14:57<Nite>i blame it on my connection and the 1.5 version might be just coincidence
14:58<Nite>the one and half minute sems relatively ecact
14:58<Nite>every time
14:59<@Alberth>did you check the changelog to see whether such settings were changed in 1.1.5?
15:00<@Alberth>well, computers are very good at giving the same result every time, no matter how often you compute the same thing :p
15:01<@Alberth>but I would not surprised at all if all server owners just updated and started the new version without reading/considering the changes
15:02<Nite>afaik computers are not good at anything at all ... no mather
15:03<Nite>changelog says: Make default timeouts for certain network states lower and configurable
15:03<Nite>does it mean the computer network or the virtual rail network ??
15:06<Nite>its pretty quiet here
15:06<Hirundo>computer network
15:06<@Alberth>the Internets
15:06<Nite>- is it getting quiet around ottd in general?
15:07<Hirundo>basically, you could shutdown a server from remote by downloading a map infinitely slowly
15:07<@Alberth>it quite often quiet here; people are busy playing or doing other stuff
15:08<Nite>but, but i downloaded the map already, superfast, iam connected and playing but only for 1 min 30
15:08<Nite>maybe some bits and bytes dont check that iam connected
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15:11<Nite>anyway ... must be my connection, might have hiccups
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15:16<andythenorth>Nite: quietness is cyclical
15:16<andythenorth>recently there was a big burst of development
15:16<andythenorth>now lots of people are busy stuff
15:17*andythenorth monologues here in inverse proportion to writing actual code :P
15:17<andythenorth>although when designing, andythenorth monologues here a lot
15:18*andythenorth ponders
15:18<Nite>ah yeah life stuff
15:19<Nite>like getting money buying things
15:20<Nite>well i se it as a sign that i should do something else then play ottd
15:20<Nite>first i will head to a more lively chatroom
15:20<@Alberth>most people here don't play much :)
15:21<andythenorth>hmm...there are a few cases where c pre-processor constants are much more elegant than providing same in python
15:21<Nite>i was always on the playerside only in ottd
15:21<andythenorth>using multiple templating methods is confusing though, right?
15:22<@Alberth>at least it's "interesting" :)
15:22<@Alberth>but yeah, it does not seem very useful to me to have several templating mechanisms
15:23<Nite>i consider taking my socond big transporttycoon pause
15:23<Nite>the first one lasted over a decade
15:25<Nite>almost exactly a decade
15:26<Nite>cya 2022 ;-)
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15:48<frosch123>someone knows when citydomination v6 spawns goals?
16:02-!-Hirundo [] has joined #openttd
16:03<frosch123>where is zuu when you need him :)
16:05<frosch123>i believe citydomination fails in singleplayer
16:05<frosch123>the scripts only notices companies if they are created newly. but in singleplayer the playercompany is started before the gs
16:05<frosch123>so only ais get goals :s
16:09<@Alberth>play as dummy AI :p
16:10<andythenorth>global constants are much easier in cpp than python
16:10<andythenorth>no scops
16:11<andythenorth>scopes /s
16:13*Hirundo expects a counter-rant on how cpp's everything-in-one-namespace can lead to subtle bugs
16:15*andythenorth wonders whether to apply duct tape principle
16:15<andythenorth>or 'one way to do it'
16:16<andythenorth>I can solve this with python, I'm just too lazy to write everytime I want it :P
16:16<andythenorth>and to pass globals = globals to the template :P
16:21<@Alberth>you write globals at top-level, right?
16:21<@Alberth>ie BND_VALUE = 38
16:21<@Alberth>from globals import * dumps all of them in your name space :p
16:23<@Alberth>Hirundo: they are not subtle at all :p
16:23<@Alberth>anyways, good night all
16:23<Hirundo>depending on your ifdef-chain, bugs may appear on Wednesdays only etc
16:24-!-Shadowthehedgehog16 [] has joined #openttd
16:24<Shadowthehedgehog16>Have any of you guys seen Plastikman???
16:25-!-Shadowthehedgehog16 [] has quit []
16:26<andythenorth>Alberth: afaik, they don't appear in the template namespace unless I pass them
16:26<@Terkhen>good night Alberth
16:27<Wolf01>good night too
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16:31<@planetmaker>andythenorth: in the nml projects there's no folder sprites/...
16:31<@planetmaker>unless you custom-define the paths differently
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16:32<andythenorth>maybe I added my own
16:32<@planetmaker>(for "my" nml project framework)
16:32<@planetmaker>yes, you did
16:32<andythenorth>I'm happy to take advice on folder structure :)
16:32<@planetmaker>because you wanted to keep it the same as nfo
16:32<andythenorth>oh yes
16:32<andythenorth>my brain found that easier :P
16:33<@planetmaker>my idea for folder layout is: build scripts (makefile and similar) for the grf go into scripts/
16:33<@planetmaker>and source files into src/
16:33<@planetmaker>and if you want the graphics into gfx/ or src/gfx. I'm not sure what I like better
16:34<@planetmaker>probably src/gfx is better
16:34<andythenorth>template files in /src ?
16:35<@planetmaker>they're source. sure
16:35<@planetmaker>create whatever subfolders you need within src
16:35<andythenorth>src/templates I guess then
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16:55<@Terkhen>good night
16:56<nase>is hier jemand auch aus deutschland?
16:58<@Rubidium>I've been in Germany (and am not in it right now) does that mean I'm from it as well?
16:59<nase>have the new version is a frwge openttd
16:59<Ammler>nase: there is no German sepaking IRC channel, if you ask for that
16:59-!-Shadowthehedgeog99 [] has joined #openttd
16:59<Shadowthehedgeog99>Is Plastikman here yet. 'cause I need to talk to him.
17:00<@Rubidium>@seen Plastikman
17:00<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: I have not seen Plastikman.
17:00<@Rubidium>Shadowthehedgeog99: he has never been here
17:00-!-nase [] has quit [Quit: ajax IRC Client]
17:01<Shadowthehedgeog99>Man. This is crap 'cause I've sent the donation to him.
17:01<@Rubidium>but Plastikman is locomotion, right?
17:01<@Rubidium>so this might not be the right place for finding people working on locomotion related things
17:01<Shadowthehedgeog99>Oh. where can I find him???
17:02<Shadowthehedgeog99>'cause some numnut banned me in there.
17:02<@Rubidium>I have no idea
17:02<Shadowthehedgeog99>They were bullying me around/
17:02<Ammler>you can't buy "unban" :-)
17:03<Shadowthehedgeog99>Where can I find it???
17:03<Shadowthehedgeog99>Tell me
17:03-!-GoneWacko [~gonewacko@] has joined #openttd
17:03-!-GoneWacko is "Stijn Gijsen" on #openttd @+#tycoon #bitlbee
17:03<GoneWacko>What are you offering?
17:03<Shadowthehedgeog99>Oh u saying I can't???
17:04<Shadowthehedgeog99>People whatever u do. don't let him ban me.
17:04<GoneWacko>aww :(
17:04<Shadowthehedgeog99>Yes!!! In your face
17:05-!-TGYoshi [~TGYoshi@] has quit [Quit: Popidopidopido]
17:05<Shadowthehedgeog99>What's wrong???
17:05-!-Neon [] has quit [Quit: Python is way too complicated... I prefer doing it quickly in C.]
17:06<Ammler>hehe, you are lucky, I am no op here :-P
17:06<Shadowthehedgeog99>Ur talking to me???
17:06-!-Chris_Booth [] has joined #openttd
17:06<@planetmaker>English only
17:06<Shadowthehedgeog99>I'm just a fan of Plastikman.
17:07<@Rubidium>well, he's not here, never has been here and probably never will be here
17:07<@Rubidium>but that you should already know
17:08-!-lobster [~lobster@] has joined #openttd
17:08<Shadowthehedgeog99>Man. I wish I could talk to him for my life
17:08<Ammler>does #tycoon still exist?
17:08<@orudge>Ammler: why wouldn't it?
17:08<lobster>you're infected too
17:08<@orudge>#tycoon has proudly existed since 2003 or so
17:08<@orudge>maybe 2002
17:08<Shadowthehedgeog99>I really want to be his friend.
17:08<@orudge>There was a #transtyc somewhere in 2002-ish
17:09<@planetmaker>Shadowthehedgeog99: then write him instead of whining here
17:09<Prof_Frink>and #irritatingtycoons at some point.
17:09<Shadowthehedgeog99>Hey orudge. I sent a donation for you.
17:09<Prof_Frink>And... the Other Channel.
17:09<lobster>and the lobsterlair
17:10<Shadowthehedgeog99>oh God not again.
17:10<Prof_Frink>Oh yes, oh yes!
17:10-!-Shadowthehedgeog98 [] has joined #openttd
17:10-!-Shadowthehedgeog99 [] has quit [Quit: ajax IRC Client]
17:11<Shadowthehedgeog98>Sorry. I was using the other username.
17:11<Shadowthehedgeog98>I tried something.
17:11<@orudge>Shadowthehedgeog98: when?
17:11<Shadowthehedgeog98>Like last week.
17:12<@orudge>If you sent a donation for AMI Trains, then you should have access to download the donationware pack
17:12<Shadowthehedgeog98>I meant the donation.
17:12<@orudge>If for some reason you don't, please let me know your username on AMI and I can check it
17:12<Shadowthehedgeog98>I was waiting for ur email to send me the newer donationware pack
17:12<Shadowthehedgeog98>I'll send it to u.
17:12<@orudge>I just host AMI Trains, I am not responsible for the content itself
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17:13<@orudge>I'm not sure if there is a 2012 donationware pack yet, you'd have to ask Plastikman probably
17:14<Shadowthehedgeog98>That what I was trying to talk to him but most people are saying he's not online.
17:14<@orudge>send him a PM on the forums
17:14<Shadowthehedgeog98>What's a PM???
17:14<@orudge>press the little 'pm' button next to his username
17:14<@orudge>it's a private message
17:14<@planetmaker>a packaged form of myself :-P
17:14<@orudge>I'm pretty sure that everybody who has sent donations has been added to the file group, anyway
17:17<Shadowthehedgeog98>Well since I'm not a member of, I guess you can send me an email for him.
17:17<@orudge>I can't, no, I don't have time
17:17<@orudge>You can easily sign up :)
17:17<Shadowthehedgeog98>I'm not sure about forums.
17:18<lobster>because they bully you?
17:18<@planetmaker>I'm not sure about people who need other people to ask yet other people for them for yet other things
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17:21<Shadowthehedgeog99>If GoneWacko bans me again I will kick him to death.
17:21<GoneWacko>now that's just not very nice
17:21<Shadowthehedgeog99>Yeah the why did u ban me???
17:22<Prof_Frink>Because he's a big fat meanie.
17:22<Shadowthehedgeog99>I know
17:22<Shadowthehedgeog99>But don't let him ban me ok.
17:22<Prof_Frink>The GoneWacko hath no power here.
17:22<@planetmaker>can you please discuss your locomotion issues somewhere where they're on-topic?
17:22<@planetmaker>I might become a big fat meanie otherwise
17:22<Shadowthehedgeog99>Yeah that's righ!!!
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17:40<TrueBrain>that concludes the daily drama
17:41<TrueBrain>you okay?
17:41<Chris_Booth>thought I would just add some drama
17:41<Chris_Booth>didn't work very well though
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18:25<andythenorth>the solution I have for global constants is just *not* better than the c pre-processor way
18:26<andythenorth>instead of NUM_TRUCK_TYPE_FIFTH_WHEEL
18:26<andythenorth>although it is at least mostly explicit where it's getting the value from
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18:46<andythenorth>good night
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18:56<cypher>This is what I call a fuckload of iron ore.
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23:19<xiong>For "Show time in minutes rather than days" is this purely visual or is there an effect on play? Is this a simple substitution of 1 minute for 1 day?
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---Logclosed Wed Feb 01 00:00:57 2012