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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-02-01

---Logopened Wed Feb 01 00:00:58 2012
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00:06<Guest1184>hey
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00:07<Guest1184>hola
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02:15<Eddi|zuHause>austrian steam engines are a huge mess...
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02:17*Rhamphoryncus swears at tropic refurbishment for finally giving him the highest speed box car.. but splitting it into 3 types, one of which being slower than the others and thus dictating the speed of his entire line
02:19<Rhamphoryncus>Clearly such things require a very different style of play, one I have not discovered yet
02:20<Elukka>i think it requires accepting that sometimes trains have to stop at signals :P
02:20<Elukka>it would be nice if trains knew to slow down when needed so they wouldn't have to come to a complete stop
02:20<Rhamphoryncus>I have a high volume trunk line. They *need* to be in harmony to move effectively
02:23<Rhamphoryncus>I was thinking that. Check the speed of the train in the block ahead (actual speed, not max speed), distance to our signal, etc, and slow down a bit
02:24<Rhamphoryncus>Path signals need some concept of caravaning too, so they'll use that and stick to their line normally, but switch to the other lane when it's nice and open
02:24<Rhamphoryncus>Or a way to put speed rules on lanes :P
02:27<Rhamphoryncus>Actually, multiple rail types could do that. Expensive high-speed rail could get a mild penalty for slow-speed vehicles
02:32<Elukka>well, they already know to pick an empty line between two equal choices (except that one has a train somewhere down the line)
02:32<Elukka>there was the speed signs patch a long time ago... i think it died
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02:37<Rhamphoryncus>Picking an empty line with path signals doesn't work. They switch lines *far* too often. I do have a priority merge by abusing presignals, but I need to redesign it to move them faster
02:46<@planetmaker>don't build line switches. Just build your hubs that each lane can go each other on branches
02:49<Rhamphoryncus>So transfer at stations? Or don't transfer, just pass through?
02:49<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i think we need to split the early austrian railway into several, just "kkStB" doesn't cut it
02:49<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i'm thinking StEG, KFNB and SB for starters
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02:57<Rhamphoryncus>Interesting idea.. rather than a rolling merge do a stopping merge. I could also just have a 6-wide waiting area. The point is to suck up the backlog in an efficient way, rather than letting it propagate back through the line
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02:59<Eddi|zuHause>Rhamphoryncus: i think the openttdcoop people called that a "tight packer"
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03:21<dihedral>greetings
03:28<Rhamphoryncus>Heh. Just did a manual autorefit
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03:36<Elukka>i am so happy cargodist binaries are again available
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04:13<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, sure it's needed? And... what are those new abbreviations?
04:15<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: the problem is that the development in austria is kinda reverse to the development in germany. the first railways were state-owned and later privatize
04:15<Eddi|zuHause>so around 1900 you get lots of similar engine types
04:16<Eddi|zuHause>the abbreviations are: SB: Südbahn, StEG: Staats-Eisenbahn Gesellschaft and KFNB: Kaiser Ferdinand Nordbahn (i think)
04:17<Eddi|zuHause>where it's my impression that those are the three biggest
04:18<Eddi|zuHause>possibly also the ÖNWB (österreichische Nordwestbahn)
04:19<Eddi|zuHause>where the north and northwest of austria actually means modern czechia :)
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04:43<@planetmaker>I see. Well. I'm not familiar with the evolution of railways in that area really. If the diversity or amount of engines justifies a split - why not. On the other hand one could make a unified core (as now) and just allow three different expansion settings for that
04:43<Rhamphoryncus>I found a use for break vans!
04:44<Rhamphoryncus>When a UFO lands nearby.. you buy one, 'cuz they're free, and leave it in the depot. This avoids having to fix orders that involve said depot.
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04:46<Eddi|zuHause>doesn't really matter whether it's free. as long as it's stopped, you don't pay anything and get the full price back (afaik)
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04:53<Rhamphoryncus>It doesn't depreciate when stopped?
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05:25<Elukka>http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/Railway/IMG_3475.jpg
05:25<Elukka>trainsssss
05:25<kais58>
05:26<Elukka>the painting in the background looks a tad out of place...
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05:34<Ammler>heffer: how does fedora solve the license issue with opensfx?
05:35<Ammler>I got requests to submit openttd to the standard repos
05:36<Ammler>but there opensfx wouldn't be allowed
05:36<Ammler>(suse)
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06:16<@planetmaker>Ammler, providing OpenSFX is not necessary really... important is really only OpenGFX as base graphics to make the game start at all
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06:44<Eddi|zuHause>dear cat. you are now standing right in front of my screen. would you please bother to move away from there?
06:46<Arafangion>Eddi|zuHause: Why should it? ;)
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08:44<Rhamphoryncus>"I'll just replace these old oilwell trams with some trains. Sure, they'll cost a lot more, but they'll amuse me, and I'm sure they'll so outstrip demand that I can do amusing but inefficient layout!"
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08:45<Rhamphoryncus>said wells have been operating for quite some time and are at 2.4 million litres/month x_x
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09:23*andythenorth found a very sane way to do globals in python templating
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09:30<tensai_cirno>morning
09:30<tensai_cirno>oh, evening
09:30<tensai_cirno>is there developer channel?
09:31<tensai_cirno>I'm playing around with alpha-stage port of OpenTTD for Blackberry PlayBook tablet
09:36<@Rubidium>there's no specific openttd port/patch developer channel; most of that just happens in here
09:37<tensai_cirno>Rubidium, okay. Looks like I figured out my little hurdle.
09:48-!-TheBrick [~chatzilla@g187024.upc-g.chello.nl] has joined #openttd
09:48<TheBrick>hello there
09:49<@Rubidium>hi
09:49<TheBrick>I've got about 20 hours to spend contributing to this project. got anything to do for me?
09:50<TheBrick>I've got basic programming skills
09:50<@Belugas>hello
09:50<TheBrick>hey
09:50<TheBrick>or is there a todo list somewhere that I can take a look at?
09:51<@Rubidium>the "to do" items are all pretty complex
09:51<@Rubidium>though... do you have Mac OS X?
09:51<TheBrick>nope windows, sorry
09:51<TheBrick>I could fetch a virtual machine maybe
09:52<TheBrick>if there's brainless grinding work to be done, I'd be happy to do it
09:53<@Rubidium>the only brainless stuff to do is fixing some of all the warnings/errors Doxygen generates
09:53<@Rubidium>i.e. document/fix documentation
09:54<TheBrick>could I spend 20 hours on that and make significant headway?
09:55<@Rubidium>I guess you could write a significant amount of documentation, though start with the simple stuff unless you want to figure out how the complex functions really work
09:56<@Rubidium>the advantage is that you can usually stop somewhere midway with documentation and it's not unfinished, just some stuff isn't documented yet
09:56<@Rubidium>whereas trying to write some feature or fix a bug within 20 hours might be take too much to get it to completion within that time
09:56<TheBrick>sounds like a job. is it separate documentation, or do I have to put comments into the code?
09:57<TheBrick>fixing bugs is something I could likely do
09:57<TheBrick>I'm just not very familiar with C++'s specific features and depths of hell
10:01<TinoDidriksen>What is the need for OS X stuff?
10:01<andythenorth>OS X has lots of open bugs
10:02<andythenorth>enough that dropping OS X support has been considered
10:03<TinoDidriksen>Nobody has OS X to work on it?
10:03<andythenorth>http://bugs.openttd.org/index.php?string=%5BOSX%5D
10:04<andythenorth>meanwhile, for those who claim they can code but not draw: http://blog.benstrong.com/2010/11/learning-to-draw-and-blog.html
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10:07<andythenorth>'some people' have OS X
10:07<andythenorth>some of those people don't fix bugs
10:07<+glx>TinoDidriksen: the main problem is you have to redo everything when a new OSX version is out
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10:10<TinoDidriksen>Why? There's no project files for Mac?
10:12<+glx>big parts of API get deprecated when a new version is out
10:12<TinoDidriksen>Oh OS X version..
10:12<TinoDidriksen>Right
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10:17<tensai_cirno>http://i.imgur.com/FXsYB.jpg
10:17<tensai_cirno>it works :D
10:18<@planetmaker>TinoDidriksen, for OSX you should (also) be familiar with Objective C(++) and the specific OSX APIs
10:18<TinoDidriksen>...or just use Qt
10:19<@planetmaker>lol?
10:19<@planetmaker>how's that a solution?
10:19<@planetmaker>one could at the same time - and simpler - demand to use SDL
10:20<@planetmaker>and spend time in making that work nicer on OSX
10:20<@planetmaker>but all that won't help really. Or at least not quickly
10:20<@planetmaker>one of the main issues is that OSX is quite hard to virtualize
10:20<@planetmaker>thus you cannot well create test environments.
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10:20<@planetmaker>And that the API deprecates quickly
10:21<@planetmaker>thus you're forced to re-write stuff which works fine on version X, but ceases to compile on version X+2
10:21<TinoDidriksen>Qt's QGraphicsView could do the graphics OpenGL accelerated, and Qt on OS X has a very nifty deploy script that bundles all required libs into a .dmg. No need to fiddle with platform specific APIs.
10:21<@planetmaker>good. Then fiddling with apple apis is replaced by fiddling with qt apis
10:22<@planetmaker>what is gained then?
10:22<@planetmaker>Given that qt is used nowhere?
10:23<@planetmaker>and usually given that native APIs tend to be faster?
10:23<tensai_cirno>Which OS-level API's are used? Threading, files, network stack.
10:23<tensai_cirno>SDL used for graphics, sound and input
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10:23<@planetmaker>SDL is not used on osx
10:23<tensai_cirno>e
10:23<tensai_cirno>why?
10:24<+glx>because it often fails maybe
10:24<@planetmaker>it's osx support is worse than the native api
10:24<__ln__>because it has various bugs of its own.
10:24<TheBrick>http://bugs.openttd.org/task/3939?project=1&order=tasktype&sort=asc&pagenum=5 this seems like something I could do. is this request still applicable?
10:24<@planetmaker>and the osx SDL version is kinda buggy
10:25<TinoDidriksen>Well, making a Qt project would mean one project that would work on WinXP+, Linux, OS X. I might take a stab at that in 2-3 months time...going to invest in a real Mac instead of my current VirtualBox one that I use for building my Qt apps.
10:25<+glx>sdl is not used for windows port either
10:26<@planetmaker>TinoDidriksen, adding a Qt backend certainly is a project on its own. Maybe it's worth it. But maybe also not
10:26<@planetmaker>I'm not sure how well it really supports the platform specifics
10:27<tensai_cirno>Could anyone point me, where code for save/load dialogs located? Application crashes, when I'm trying to leave sandbox.
10:27<TinoDidriksen>So far, all the Qt stuff I've done as "just worked" on all platforms.
10:28<tensai_cirno>TinoDidriksen, there are lots of platforms, where Qt doesn't work
10:28<+glx>tensai_cirno: should be in a _gui.cpp file
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10:28<tensai_cirno>including toasters powered by NetBSD
10:31<@planetmaker>tensai_cirno, what is used on OSX is ApplicationServices, CoreServices, Cocoa (for video, input and music), QuickDraw (optional video)
10:31<tensai_cirno>planetmaker, ouch
10:32<tensai_cirno>i guess it's pretty hard to maintain
10:32<@planetmaker>thus the usual frameworks which *should* be used on OSX
10:32<@planetmaker>but ... they change :S
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10:33<@planetmaker>and worse, there's quite some reports which I can't reproduce as they seem to depend on certain hardware arrangements
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10:35<+glx>like blitters planetmaker ?
10:35<@planetmaker>that's tricky terrain, yes
10:36<@planetmaker>and it's not like I'm going to buy several macs just for test purposes ;-)
10:40<@planetmaker>http://bugs.openttd.org/index.php?string=osx&project=1 <-- and it needs mostly adoption for osx 10.7 (Lion)
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10:41<spongie>Hi guys. Is there an image or info on the optimal 2 track balancer. I have two tracks in the same direction, so far all the "sollutions" online present different problem.
10:42<@planetmaker>define "optimal"
10:42<spongie>when I use pre signals i have the problem that a train might start moving towards the switch and then get blocked by a speedy train on the other track
10:42<@planetmaker>I dare say there is no 'optimal' as the "best" solution depends on the circumstances and the definition of "best"
10:43<spongie>when I use path signals they mysteriously halt the trains sometimes even though a clear path is obviously available.
10:43<spongie>almost as if it takes time to calculate the reservation
10:43<@planetmaker>http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/Main_Page <--- did you look through that wiki or the related blog?
10:43<spongie>indeed.
10:45<spongie>both the coop site and the regular openttd wiki examples of this result in this behavior since both are using either pre signals or path signals
10:47<spongie>planetmaker: what would you consider the best solution?
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10:50<TheBrick>sorry to bother you people, but I would like an opinion from a developer about this issue: http://bugs.openttd.org/task/3939?project=1&order=tasktype&sort=asc&pagenum=5 it sounds like something I could do, unless it's dangerous code to work on, or if it's not applicable anymore
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10:51<TheBrick>I'm mostly interested in the sorting issues
10:54<TheBrick>or if there's a place in the forums for these kind of topics, I'd be happily referred to that
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11:03<Polsie>I have a question
11:04<Polsie>i've downloaded the patch for big maps...
11:04<__ln__>that's not a question, that's a statement.
11:04<Polsie>but were must i place that patch? or how do I run that one?
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11:06<polsie>so have anyone a solution?
11:07<polsie>because i can't solve it
11:07<@Rubidium>polsie: see http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=21678
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11:10<polsie>I didn't understand it al...
11:12<Elukka>it's probably the fourth post you should look at
11:12<Elukka>though i remember trying that one time and it didn't work for whatever reason...
11:17<@planetmaker>spongie, as said: there's no general answer. It really depends on the exact circumstances. I'd build a good system with prios where side lines merge and maybe a shift-mainline system
11:18<@planetmaker>TheBrick, it's a bit difficult. Not all info are available prior to join. But a solution making use of the existing info should not re-invent the wheel but use the existing sorting framework
11:19<TheBrick>alright. I'm familiar with sorting algorithms, so it sounds like a good idea to try?
11:21<@planetmaker>TheBrick, there are other parts which might be nice to fix. Like if you use the OpenGFX+ BigGUI NewGRF you'll notice that there are several places where the sprite size is not properly taken care of in the GUI
11:22<@planetmaker>like the x close button on the top left of some windows
11:22<@planetmaker>or the <- or -> arrows in some places
11:24<TheBrick>alright, is there a buglist entry for this?
11:25<@planetmaker>not sure
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11:28<TheBrick>if there is, I cannot find it. could you do me a favor and open one for this issue? That makes it clear cut for me and a nice place for discussion
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11:30<@planetmaker>how does it make it clearer? :-)
11:30<@planetmaker>and yes, one can also just open reports with patches attached
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11:33<spongie>planetmaker: its the shift mainline thingy im wondering about
11:34<@planetmaker>spongie, it will make sure that the lines are used absolutely unbalanced :-)
11:35<spongie>ok. basically, I have an extra track in the same direction as the mainline and im looking to take some load of the first track
11:36<spongie>my mainlines are usually LLRR
11:36<spongie>and although it sorts of balances with either the pbs or pre signal solutions, theres still a fair amount of erronous shifting and blocking
11:37<TheBrick>I'll see what I can do, planetmaker, but I'm unfamiliar with everything here (project, game, codebase, forums, etc) so I'm looking for directions on how to get started with all this. I have to reference my work here, so an existing bug that I work on sounds like the best approach
11:41<spongie>ok
11:41<spongie>oops
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11:47<Eddi|zuHause>i solved the mac port issues: http://pics.nase-bohren.de/play-games-on-mac.jpg
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11:59<@planetmaker>TheBrick, alternatively you could of course try to improve an AI or write a nice goal script for OpenTTD
11:59<@planetmaker>Or write for example a bot logging the commands via the admin port
11:59<andythenorth>isn't this the solution to OS X issues? http://www.apple.com/support/bootcamp/
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11:59<@planetmaker>those might be projects which are possibly easier contained and don't require you to dig that deeply into OpenTTD's vast source code base
12:00<@planetmaker>AIs and goal scripts are written in squirrel, OpenTTD provides a more or less extensive API. And there are libraries available
12:01<@planetmaker>For such logging script you might use whatever you like. There exist libraries to access the admin port in both python and java
12:01<dihedral>here
12:01<@planetmaker>To my knowledge at least. Other non-published stuff might exist
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12:04<TheBrick>thanks for the info, planetmaker. are you familiar with an AI that could use some work? AI is one of my favorite subjects, and I know a lot of the basics (probability, all kinds of search algorithms, machine learning)
12:05<@planetmaker>Well... Most AI luckily are GPL-licensed, so one can start with any. "Need" work is relative... I'd suggest to talk to Zuu. He's quite much into writing AI and scripts and libraries for them
12:06<@planetmaker>Hi might also give you more detailed ideas and might welcome contributions to one of his AIs
12:06<@planetmaker>You find a number of AI projects here: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/aidev
12:07<@planetmaker>Hm, though Zuu's might not yet be there :-)
12:08<TheBrick>is he online on IRC here somewhere?
12:08<TheBrick>I don't see his name
12:08<@planetmaker>then he's currently not online
12:08<TheBrick>is he online often?
12:08<@planetmaker>relatively regularily, yes
12:08<@planetmaker>European evening hours
12:08<TheBrick>alright good. I hope to talk to him tonight
12:09<@planetmaker>if / when you're registered to tt-forums.net, you could write him a message there
12:09<TheBrick>good idea
12:10<@planetmaker>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/superlib <-- his library for AIs
12:10<@planetmaker>which also gives you the names of his AIs
12:10<@planetmaker>in the description
12:10<@planetmaker>And as it's a scripting language... downloading the AI will give you their source, too
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12:14<TheBrick>I can't download the SuperLib repository for some reason
12:14<TheBrick>Error: OPTIONS of 'http://hg.openttdcoop.org/superlib': 200 Script output follows (http://hg.openttdcoop.org)
12:14<TheBrick>sigh I'm such a noob at this
12:15<TheBrick>trying to checkout the svn base
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12:20<Anteu>http://rakenews.com Free $ from poker!
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12:26<TheBrick>planetmaker: looks like someone is working on the BigGUI sprite issues as we speak http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=50095&start=20
12:26<TheBrick>wait
12:27<TheBrick>that's you, haha
12:27<@planetmaker>:-P
12:28<TheBrick>I'll be back after dinner and see if I can fix these things
12:28<TheBrick>bye for now, and thanks.
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12:29<@planetmaker>you're welcome
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13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r23874 /trunk/src/lang/ (french.txt lithuanian.txt):
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: french - 1 changes by Snail_
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: lithuanian - 11 changes by Stabilitronas
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13:54<frosch123>he, citydomination is not even by zuu :o
13:55<frosch123>why did i search for zuu yesterday? :p
13:58<@Alberth>the one and only king of the squirrel scripts? ;)
13:58<frosch123>yeah, i just assumed that any script must be by him :)
13:59<frosch123>then i was confused that someone else replied to my bug report :p
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14:09<@Alberth>hi andy
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14:12<tensai_cirno>by the way
14:12<tensai_cirno>right mouse button used only for scrolling map?
14:12<Chris_Booth>Hi!
14:12<tensai_cirno>i want to implement scrolling with double-finger gesture
14:13<frosch123>rmb can also be used to show tooltips
14:13<frosch123>the depotview also has a speical ctrl+right click tooltip
14:13<frosch123>minimap is also scrolled using rmb
14:13<tensai_cirno>tooltips for what?
14:13<frosch123>those thingies which pop up after some seconds
14:14<frosch123>instead of the delay than can also be shown via rmb
14:14<frosch123>there is an advancted setting for that
14:14<frosch123>tooltips via rmb is the traditional ttd method
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14:14<frosch123>delay is more modern
14:15<andythenorth>evening
14:15<frosch123>but i think in the train depot the rmb tooltip always works, since it is not suitable to do that kind of tooltip via an hoover delay
14:15<tensai_cirno>usual tooltips could be sacrificed.
14:15<tensai_cirno>rmb+click on trains in train depot?
14:16<tensai_cirno>yep, I see
14:16<tensai_cirno>first time noticed them
14:17<tensai_cirno>Well, playbook can detect up to 4 fingers, I think I'll work around that somehow :)
14:17<frosch123>even ctrl+rmb+click
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15:02<V453000>hi, when I need to load a newGRF on a dedicated server, how do I download the content which is missing for that savegame?
15:02<V453000>so that the server loads it correctly
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15:03<@planetmaker>V453000, via rcon
15:03<Chris_Booth>V453000: you have to make sure that the newgrf is on the server
15:03<@planetmaker>but on our servers use !content and it should do the rest for you
15:03<V453000>yeah but it isnt the current content
15:03<V453000>there is an older version of a bananas newgrf
15:06<@planetmaker>which NewGRF (incl. md5sum) do you miss?
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15:10<V453000>I am already sending those grfs to them
15:10<V453000>but for exaple basecosts 3.2 is in the save, but on bananas is 3.2.1 as latest
15:13*andythenorth starts a not-quite-a-guide
15:13<andythenorth>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=993667#p993667
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15:23<V453000>[2012-02-01 21:18:06] dbg: [net] Loading game failed, so a new (random) game will be started! [2012-02-01 21:18:07] dbg: [net] Generating map, please wait... this could be caused only by incorrect version right?
15:23<V453000>I am sure I have the version correctly
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15:29<Chris_Booth>might be you are loading an unsafe grf config
15:29<Chris_Booth>or have grf errors
15:32<@Terkhen>hello
15:32<andythenorth>hola Terkhen
15:33<andythenorth>que tal?
15:34<@Terkhen>fine, I just finished moving to a new room :)
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15:46<__ln__>i'm not sure it's an entirely positive thing that there are only three HDD manufacturers left in the world...
15:46<TheBrick>partly positive is a greater demand for SSD => cheaper SSDs
15:51<valhallasw>TheBrick: in general higher demand leads to more expensive products
15:51<valhallasw>however, a high demand will also stimulate competition
15:51<TheBrick>I mean there is a high demand for low priced SSDs
15:52<TheBrick>so yes, competition for low prices
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16:16<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: is it fair to say your generator is a pure code generator?
16:16<andythenorth>rather than some horrible frankenstein of code generator + substitution-templating
16:16<andythenorth>I'm overlooking the CPP, just referring to the python
16:19<andythenorth>I want to draw a line somewhere that says "either choose simple templating, or learn how compilers work, but don't mix them, it's hell"
16:20<andythenorth>(in a templating guide)
16:21<frosch123>oh, "grf" is short for "graf dracula"?
16:31<andythenorth>did I make any mistakes yet? http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=58390
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16:31<andythenorth>otherwise I move onto the more interesting bit. that's all pre-amble
16:31*andythenorth fears lack of sleep = tpyos
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16:59<@Terkhen>good night
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17:09<cypher>I just thought of a way to compute matrix determinant with On^64 complexity. May I get my Nobel prize please?
17:10<andythenorth>does it compile nml faster?
17:10<__ln__>since when is ordo notation used without parentheses?
17:10*andythenorth wonders
17:11<andythenorth>is there any harm in duplicating about 95% of the code in a newgrf several times?
17:11<andythenorth>it might be a brute force way to do things like FIRS economies
17:11<cypher>__ln__ : since I'm inventing things.
17:12<cypher>andythenorth : Probably not.
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17:12<andythenorth>it's probably a huge waste of file size anyway
17:13<andythenorth>and nmlc would barf on duplicate identifiers, so they'd have to be made unique
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17:14<cypher>I still thing it's a good idea. Think about it. For 4x4 matrix it's 340282366920938463463374607431768211456 operations, so for 2048*2048 TTD map, it's probably somewhat more.
17:14<cypher>*think
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17:16<TheBrick>I'd say that's an impressive feat
17:16<TheBrick>coming up with such an order of complexity
17:16<TheBrick>are you sure it would actually work?
17:17<frosch123>hmm, i think i only learned to compute them with n!, but wiki says there are n^3 algorithms
17:18<cypher>TheBrick : I'm almost positive.
17:18<TheBrick>do a test run :P
17:19<cypher>I only thought of it while studying for linear algebra exam, I didn't actually write it. See, I have a cheap HP laptop and no fire alarm whatsoever...
17:19<frosch123>oh, apparently i never learned how to compute a determinant effectively... it's so obvious when i read it...
17:20<cypher>frosch123 : how uneffectively did you do it? Was it anywhere near say... n^5?
17:21<cypher>I think i'm gonna turn that into a competition.
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17:21<frosch123>no idea how to do it in n^5. i can only do it in n! or n^3
17:21<frosch123>if you limit the band width, it becomes linear though
17:21<TheBrick>just do bogosort with 128 bit numbers
17:22<cypher>Anyways, I'll rather plug myself off.
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17:22<@Rubidium>isn't O(n!) > O(n^c)
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17:23<@planetmaker>it is
17:23<frosch123>O(n!) > O(c^n) > O(n^c)
17:23<frosch123>except for certain small values of c :)
17:24<@Rubidium>you mean c <= 1?
17:24<frosch123>yip :p
17:26<TheBrick>bogosort is O(infinite), isn't it? so I'd win
17:27<frosch123>ottd 1.2-beta3 uses bogosort :)
17:27<@Rubidium>just do heapsort with choochoo comparator
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18:18<andythenorth>good night
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18:27<Rhamphoryncus>TheBrick: bogosort is only O(∞) worst case. Average case isn't quite as bad.
18:28<TheBrick>ah yeah
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18:28<TheBrick>while (); is that on average though
18:28<__ln__>worst case is not denoted by O()
18:29<TheBrick>well, type me an omega
18:29<__ln__>Ω or ω?
18:30<TheBrick>eh, well I'm not fluent in this shit anymore, it's been quite a whie
18:30<TheBrick>which one is the right one?
18:30<__ln__>i don't remember
18:30<TheBrick>theta was average case
18:30<TheBrick>what bound is O then?
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18:31<TheBrick>I thought it was worst case
18:31<TheBrick>time to look that shit up
18:32<TheBrick>where's wikipedia for the mathematically declined?
18:33<TheBrick>well whatever
18:34<Rhamphoryncus>We're programmers, we don't need to use it "correctly". It's like the english language: we stole the word for ourselves.
18:34<__ln__>i'll check the Book... to see if it possibly is the worst case
18:35<TheBrick>I think I get it again though. O is worst case, omega is best case, theta is when both have equal complexities
18:35<TheBrick>that's probably the undergraduate level understanding of it
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18:36<TheBrick>omega is apparently not that clear cut
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18:42<__ln__>i have the definition right here
18:43<__ln__>O(g(n)) = { f(n) : there exist positive constants c and n0 such that 0 <= f(n) <= cg(n) for all n >= n0 }.
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18:44<TheBrick>this is not the time for maths
18:44<TheBrick>it's time for... sleep
18:45<__ln__>O() is an asymptotic upper bound, the Book says. Ω is asymptotic lower bound.
18:45<TheBrick>so it's worse than the worst case?
18:45<TheBrick>if you consider infinities not to exist
18:46<__ln__>worse than worse sounds bad
18:47<TheBrick>well if you're an optimist; it's never quite as bad as it says
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22:09<Eddi|zuHause>did the forum just die?
22:09<NullByte>not from my perspective
22:10<Eddi|zuHause>hm. works again
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22:45<Eddi|zuHause>if 8 "distance"-hours equals 1 "travel"-hour, what average speed does this make?
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22:54<Eddi|zuHause>hm, if you assume 2 "distance"-hours = 1 mile, and 1 mile = 7500m (german "metric" mile), then this yields 30km/h
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---Logclosed Thu Feb 02 00:01:04 2012