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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-02-03

---Logopened Fri Feb 03 00:00:08 2012
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01:53<Eddi|zuHause><Rubidium> Alberth: in TTD it was 2**31 (you can have negative money as well) <-- but it would apply the currency multiplicator correctly, so it would be 2**31£, 2**32$ or 2**33DM
01:57<Eddi|zuHause>(and then wrap around into negative if you get more profit)
01:57<Eddi|zuHause>(i had that once, used the "build long tunnel" cheat to get back to positive money)
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02:37<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: sadly enough we lost that feature of correctly applying the currency multiplier when near/at the money limit
02:38<Eddi|zuHause>need 128bit ints :p
02:39*andythenorth needs more sleep
02:39<andythenorth>why are you people up?
02:39<andythenorth>you seem to go to bed later than me, and you're often here when I get up
02:39<andythenorth>do you sleep?
02:39<Eddi|zuHause>actually, we could fake this by applying the multiplicator on the string instead
02:39<Eddi|zuHause>sleep is overrated
02:39<Elukka>i don't believe eddi sleeps
02:41<andythenorth>maybe his brain is in two halves
02:41<andythenorth>one half sleeps, the other wakes
02:41<andythenorth>then they switch
02:41<andythenorth>or maybe they're asynchronous
02:43<Eddi|zuHause>all i know is that the cat is electrostatically loaded...
02:48<@planetmaker>does it also sometimes chat for you? ;-)
02:48*andythenorth has to work
02:48<andythenorth>would someone finish my python tutorial while I'm away
02:48<andythenorth>thanks :P
02:49<Elukka>so he is possibly a dolphin
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02:49*andythenorth from somewhere import someone
02:50<andythenorth>stuff = []
02:50<Eddi|zuHause>from __future__ import finished_tutorial
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03:05<Elukka>speaking of sleeping with half the brain, i'm reminded of a thing...
03:05<Elukka>there's a surgical procedure that involves removing half the brain
03:05<Elukka>sometimes there's a more or less full recovery
03:05<Elukka>you can take off half the brain and it'll still work the same
03:08<andythenorth>not quite the same
03:08<andythenorth>work yes
03:08<andythenorth>there are functions that aren't replicated in both hemispheres
03:08<Elukka>well, it varies, but you'd think they'd be severely mentally disabled afterwards
03:09<andythenorth>there's a large literature on how brain injury can have specific interesting effects
03:09<andythenorth>search "phineas gage"
03:09<Elukka>"One case, demonstrated by Smith & Sugar, 1975; A. Smith 1987, demonstrated that one patient with this procedure had completed college, attended graduate school and scored above average on intelligence tests. Studies have found no significant long-term effects on memory, personality, or humor after the procedure,[2] and minimal changes in cognitive function overall.[3]"
03:09<Elukka>not everyone is as lucky, of course
03:11*andythenorth from __somewhere__ import car_keys
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03:25<dihedral>good morning
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04:00<Eddi|zuHause>nmlc: An internal error has occurred:
04:00<Eddi|zuHause>Error: (IndexError) "string index out of range".
04:00<Eddi|zuHause>that doesn't sound right
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04:11<Eddi|zuHause>hm... and devzone fails showing previews...
04:13<Eddi|zuHause>sorry, this report is totally ill-formatted
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06:25<Rhamphoryncus>Huh, that's why reverse scroll doesn't seem right: the mouse cursor doesn't go with it
06:25<Rhamphoryncus>It sticks with your window
06:35<@peter1138>guess what
06:35<@peter1138>i had a patch for that once
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06:47<Rhamphoryncus>peter1138: didn't fly? :/
06:47<MNIM>heh. I guess the military vehicle had little damage at all?
06:52<@peter1138>yeah, it made scrolling hard when you had windows open
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07:33<Rhamphoryncus>peter1138: oh, I'd just want it to be a visual thing.
07:34<@peter1138>when the cursor moves, it'll move into a different window from the main viewport
07:34<@peter1138>then it stops scrolling
07:38<Rhamphoryncus>I'd want it to show the cursor moving, but still treat it as where you started
07:38<Rhamphoryncus>Until you release the button
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08:24<cmircea>After playing around with the OpenTTD port in the Android Market, I doubt a port to these devices would be recommended with the current UI.
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08:25<cmircea>It's kind of a pain to do anything.
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08:37<Rhamphoryncus>cmircea: you must have decent resolution. On mine it's impossible.
08:37<cmircea>1280x720 is quite decent frankly.
08:38<cmircea>That's not the point. In a tablet the UI is large enough.
08:39<cmircea>The issue is mostly with the mouse-designed UI. Kinda hard to hold down and select (not to mention the port doesn't implement that), scrolling would be impossible, navigating the menus is a pain, the device buttons don't do anything.
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08:39<cmircea>There are not easy to fix issues.
08:40<cmircea>Unless someone else is interested I'd have to scrap this idea for about a year, since I won't have much time for now.
08:42<Rhamphoryncus>Mine's 320x240, heh
08:42<Rhamphoryncus>cmircea: I'd like to redesign the entire UI but I'm not doing it any time soon. I'm starting with scheduling ;)
08:42<cmircea>That's murder.
08:43<Rhamphoryncus>yes, yes it is
08:43<Rhamphoryncus>but the phone was free
08:43<cmircea>Yeah well my GNex wasn't exactly cheap :P
08:44<Rhamphoryncus>comparing ours is painful to look at:
08:45<cmircea>Rhamphoryncus, 12 times more pixels.
08:46<cmircea>That says it all.
08:47<cmircea>I'd be more than happy to do an Android port. It wouldn't be that difficult, most of the libraries probably compile directly; maybe SDL but there's already a port. Android not working well with Visual Studio is an annoyance, but meh, Eclipse isn't that hard to use.
08:47<cmircea>But I don't have much time to work on the UI.
08:47<Rhamphoryncus>Yours is a tablet though?
08:47<cmircea>No, it's a phone, 4.65"
08:47<cmircea>Things are a wee bit small on OTTD, but bearable.
08:47<cmircea>Still not playable.
08:54<cmircea>I'm setting up a github repo
08:55<cmircea>Though I likely won't do much.
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09:27<andythenorth>wrong animal :P
09:28<andythenorth>Belugas: today is forest police station day, if Amazon deliver on time....
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09:44<@Belugas>i bet that since kiddo is born, you find even more reasons to complete your collection ^_^
09:47<@Belugas>mh... that's bad... my kid is not as interested in guitar as i am. in fact, not at all...
09:47<@Belugas>so i cannot do the same trickery :(
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09:58<andythenorth>Belugas: maybe he likes cameras? :)
10:00<@Belugas>yeah he does. but so does my wife.
10:00<@Belugas>which means...
10:00<@Belugas>that the little prince is already equipped :)
10:01<@Belugas>i told her once... "i'll give him my 1000D, i'll buy a 7D instead"
10:01<@Belugas>she did not like the idea
10:01<@Belugas>"What is he going to do with it, plus you don't need that much of a camera"
10:01<@Belugas>no... BUT I WANT IT!
10:03<Ammler>why is opentitle.dat installed to baseset?
10:04<Ammler>or openttd.32.bmp
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10:06<@Rubidium>because we got rid of data, and they're definitely not a NewGRF
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10:12<Ammler>hmm, also a little type, it should be baseset_s_
10:13<Ammler>typo* :-)
10:14<@Rubidium>like it's langs, srcs, newgrfs, ais, ailibraries, contents_download?
10:18<Ammler>or scripts
10:18<Ammler>but indeed
10:19<Ammler>heffer: has Fedora an alternative for Recommends I am not aware of?
10:19<@planetmaker>Belugas, ;-)
10:20<@planetmaker>speaking of cameras :-P
10:20<@planetmaker>exposure time 1/1000s ;-)
10:22<@Belugas>it's beautiful :D
10:22<@planetmaker>the camera was a bit non-standard...
10:23<@planetmaker>and is was **** cold yesterday
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10:23<@Belugas>now i am disappointed. I tough it was youur new lens :(
10:23<@Belugas>i know you cold not shoot that close with your slr :)
10:23<@planetmaker>well... the "lens" had 8" diameter here :-P
10:25<@planetmaker>we tried to find out whether we can see a star fading out of view (time-resolved) when it becomes hidden by the moon
10:25<@planetmaker>I guess it might work
10:25<Ammler>Rubidium: is this change somehow docuemnted for distro/packagers or we need to grep the source?
10:25<@planetmaker>which means... trip to Italy in April :-P
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10:27<@Belugas>cool :)
10:27<cmircea>Does OTTD run with SDL 1.3?
10:27*andythenorth searches for moon picture taken on 500mm mirror lens and 2 stacked 2x converters
10:27<andythenorth>but can't find it
10:27<andythenorth>was good for cheap equipment
10:28<@planetmaker>did you try, cmircea ?
10:28<@Belugas>planetmaker, the blurr around the right edges are due to the atmosphere? must not come from the movement, not at that speed
10:28<@planetmaker>andythenorth, it's about the same focal length then. This is 2.3m
10:28<cmircea>planetmaker, not really, no.
10:28<andythenorth>the quality on mine was rather less :)
10:28<@planetmaker>Belugas, it's a bit image-treated... 10 images stacked and slightly sharpened
10:29<cmircea>planetmaker, was hoping someone already did.
10:29<@planetmaker>I might have overdone it a bit
10:29<@Belugas>hha... ok
10:29<@planetmaker>and... it was quite cloudy already. That probably caused most of the blur
10:29<@Belugas>i'd say the later rather than the former
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10:29<@Belugas>mmmh... mb, get out off my fingers!
10:30<Ammler>ah, that diff is too big :-)
10:30<@planetmaker>what do you mean, Belugas ?
10:32<@Belugas>mb has a tendancy to speak with "former, later" quite oftenly. And I think i'm contaminated
10:33<Ammler>we really should sometime also cleanup the mess with dedicated
10:33<@Belugas>never mind... too much coffee on my system... plus, blame peter1138 for putting DeathMole on my ears!
10:35<@planetmaker>he must have read QC
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11:02<@planetmaker> <-- Belugas. Read the comment of the artist below the strip ;-)
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11:04<@Belugas>must have indeed :)
11:05<@Belugas>we're both fans of Deathmole (well... i believe he is) for some times now :)
11:05<@planetmaker>I haven't actually listened to it yet. But they offer samples... maybe later today :-)
11:08<@Belugas>whole songs. warning... a bit heavy metal
11:08<@Belugas>i know somewhere, you can find some other songs, when deathmole was free music
11:08<@planetmaker>I can live with that ;-) Would fit with Blind Guardian etc ;-)
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11:22<__ln__>meanwhile in finland:
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11:27<@planetmaker>looks cold ;-)
11:28*andythenorth might drive home and write python tutorials
11:28<andythenorth>and build lego police stations
11:28<andythenorth>glamourous life
11:29<Elukka>it's cold as hell right now
11:30<@planetmaker>yesterday was said to be the coldest day of this winter for here
11:30<@planetmaker>like -20 ... -5°C
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11:33<@Belugas>that looks like Quebec!
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11:33<@Belugas>what a cool video :)
11:33<@Belugas>i wonder... is the driver the one holding the camera?
11:33<@Belugas>if so... anoher reason to ban those devices
11:35<@planetmaker>it looks the person on the right does
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11:48<@Belugas>mmh... anyone know if mysql has generators available?
11:50<@Belugas>aaaahh.. never mind... the guy had the pk as autoincrement
11:52<@Belugas>and here it snows, once more
11:57<@Rubidium>Belugas: I doubt the consequences are as bad as they are here ;)
11:57<@Rubidium>(for traffic that is)
12:00<@Rubidium>although I was wondering why a train running two times an hour with a journey length of ~90 minutes can have a delay of 180 minutes
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12:06<@Belugas>indeed, not as bad. we are quite used to the white stuff now :)
12:07<@Belugas>as for the trains, maybe they had a stuck car/truck/whatever n the rails?
12:09<@Rubidium>Belugas: rather jammed switches
12:10<@Rubidium>it would probably have been faster to walk the 7.5 km home today
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12:20<@planetmaker> <-- I give up
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13:05<frosch123>Belugas: i would be happy if it would snow here; then it would not be as cold :)
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13:30<@Belugas>granted, frosch123 :)
13:30<@Alberth>hi Sir B
13:30<@Belugas>i've heard indeed that good old Europ is having a walk in the cold side
13:30<@Belugas>sir Alberth!
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13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r23877 /trunk/src/lang/ (french.txt lithuanian.txt):
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: french - 52 changes by OliTTD
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: lithuanian - 4 changes by Stabilitronas
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14:05<Rhamphoryncus>ahoy andy
14:07<Rhamphoryncus>I'm having fun. Comparing vehicle departure times and getting 371. They're on full day increments.
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14:07<Eddi|zuHause>'t was about time there was an actual winter here...
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14:09<Rhamphoryncus>Vehicles are updated one at a time, so at any given point you'll have some that are 1 tick in to the future
14:09<MNIM>Eddi|zuHause: agreed.
14:10<MNIM>FINALLY I get to use that mountainbike for what I intended to use it for. :D
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14:31*andythenorth ponders writing more tutorial
14:32<andythenorth>but as everyone knows, pondering isn't doing :P
14:33<@Alberth>but a bit of pondering before doing may cause big jumps forward :p
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14:38<andythenorth>I need a test subject :P
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14:47<andythenorth>I mean a person :)
14:51<itp>A test subject for what?
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14:53<andythenorth>templating NML with python
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15:02*andythenorth sets trivial challenge
15:08<@Alberth>did you make any WT3 document?
15:08<@Alberth>last weekend I was traveling, and wrote a bit of REST structure of a WT3 site
15:10<Ammler>andythenorth: there is a python make replacement
15:11<@Alberth>only one?
15:17<Ammler>"a" doesn't mean that, does it? :-)
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15:23<andythenorth>Ammler: is it AAP per chance?
15:23<Ammler>I have no clue, I already told anything about I know
15:24<andythenorth>I wonder if make is a solved problem
15:24<andythenorth>planetmaker has it pretty well under control no?
15:24<Ammler>why do you see make as "a problem"?
15:25<andythenorth>it's a phrase ;)
15:25<Ammler>one issue with it could be the lack of support on windows, but that might be for everything
15:25<andythenorth>'solved problem' = let's not worry about this, it works
15:26<Ammler>only very experienced devs here are able to build devzone projects on windows
15:26<Ammler>maybe 2
15:27<Ammler>hmm, rather none, I guess everyone now runs linux vms for it :-)
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15:29<andythenorth>I didn't realise it was so hard :o
15:32<andythenorth>Ammler: for the build step, I think I could do a simple grf like BANDIT in pure python
15:32<andythenorth>including docs
15:32<andythenorth>but making different targets, including src bundles etc
15:32<andythenorth>and moving to install location: not
15:33<@Rubidium>andythenorth: why can't you?
15:33<Ammler>well, the whole dependency stuff
15:33<andythenorth>Rubidium: 'I' is the important part :P
15:33<@Rubidium>andythenorth: yes, you're the one! ;)
15:33<@Rubidium>you can do it ;)
15:34<andythenorth>I'm not a good tool maker
15:34<andythenorth>and there are >3 years of knowledge in the current makefile, for which I am only a dumb user :P
15:34<andythenorth>I think what I *can* do is write a python wsgi app that lets users 'configure' a grf in a web browser locally, then build it
15:34<andythenorth>which might be an interesting approach
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15:39<Ammler>what would a user configure?
15:40<andythenorth>for a truck grf, they could configure values of: all vehicle attributes; names; number of trailers; 'upload' pngs
15:40<andythenorth>for a bus newgrf similar
15:40<andythenorth>trains, I'm not sure
15:40<andythenorth>maybe it's the solution to the BROS car crash :P
15:40<andythenorth>it would be akin to grf maker, in some ways
15:41<andythenorth>no ability to add complex varaction 2 stuff etc
15:42<andythenorth>industry newgrf: not possible, too complicated
15:47<+michi_cc>Ammler: Building devzone projects on windows is as easy as installing cygwin is.
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15:48<andythenorth>Ammler: basically stuff you see here is all BANDIT configuration:
15:49<Ammler>michi_cc: then there is one, I guessed 2 :-)
15:49<Ammler>I am able to install cygwin, but I am not able to build a devzone project
15:49<+michi_cc>Even works with gimp and everything.
15:50<andythenorth>Ammler: I edit a truck with this form :)
15:50<andythenorth>'s in Zope which is...umm...overkill :P
15:51<Ammler>andythenorth: that looks like cets
15:51<andythenorth>similar idea. different backend
15:51<andythenorth>basically object database versus row-based database
15:52<andythenorth>I am hoping I can pickle objects directly from web form(s) to configure the grf, then read them directly out for building the grf
15:52<Ammler>andythenorth: I am not sure, where you profit from object based database
15:52<andythenorth>familiarity for me
15:52<andythenorth>is all
15:53<andythenorth>potato / potato in the end result
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16:00<andythenorth>buy menu text might be an interesting challenge
16:00<andythenorth>I need to use either a custom string, or a shared string
16:01<andythenorth>my database has no provision for that
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16:05<andythenorth>'lo Terkhen
16:09*andythenorth explores
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16:16<andythenorth>paver looks interesting
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16:26<@Terkhen>why is CPP "wrong"?
16:26<@Terkhen>besides being confusing and not really created for nml templating :)
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16:28<andythenorth>Terkhen: it's good for includes and constant substitution
16:28<andythenorth>what do you think of it as a solution?
16:32<@Terkhen>it already works and it does its job :P
16:33<@Terkhen>it's quite possible that a better solution exists, but it involves changes to both the existing makefile framework and templates already created
16:34<andythenorth>the makefile change appears to be simple afaict
16:35<andythenorth>I'm only looking at python alternatives because others seem to want one
16:35<andythenorth>and I'm too tired to write code :P
16:35<@Rubidium>then code write ;)
16:35<@Rubidium>oh no, somebody aready coded write
16:35<andythenorth>wode crite
16:35<andythenorth>more likely
16:36<andythenorth>I only started python templating because I didn't like writing out multiple duplicate CPP defines
16:36<andythenorth>so I templated those :P
16:37<andythenorth>then it....grewed
16:37<andythenorth>now afaict there is no CPP in BANDIT
16:37<@Terkhen>if the makefile changes are simple then it's probably worth the effort to try a supposed better solution with a new project that requires templates, and then consider if adapting existing project to the new method is desirable
16:37<andythenorth>Terkhen: checkout the BANDIT repo ;)
16:38<andythenorth>I haven't advocated changing FIRS so far
16:38<@Terkhen>sorry, I have no dev environment here :)
16:39<andythenorth>build script is here:
16:39<andythenorth>truck template here:
16:40<andythenorth>I think it can be improved - alberth might help me
16:41<andythenorth>most of all it's fun to code with
16:41<andythenorth>each vehicle is a first class python object, which means a lot of interesting things can be done very quickly
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16:49*Terkhen has no idea of python
16:49<andythenorth>just assume it's code :)
16:50<andythenorth>if andythenorth can do it, it's not very hard code
16:50<@Terkhen>def get_total_consist_capacity(self): <-- I'm not used to understand that kind of code :P
16:50<andythenorth>dunno why self has to be set as param
16:51<@Rubidium>to tell it's an instance function instead of a static function?
16:51*andythenorth guesses it needs it for namespace reasons. let's see
16:52<andythenorth>"... the self variable represents the instance of the object itself. Most object-oriented languages pass this as a hidden parameter to the methods defined on an object; Python does not. You have to declare it explicitly."
16:52<@Rubidium>so it's exactly what I said
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16:53<andythenorth>it's a convention apparently
16:53<andythenorth>could be any other string
16:54<andythenorth>string / identifier /s
16:54*andythenorth is learning more python this 7 days than in last 7 years of using it :P
16:54<@Rubidium>then I propose _ as identifier
16:54<andythenorth>I think that would have interesting side effects?
16:56<@Rubidium>it's often used as "don't care" paramater in functional programming languages
16:56-!-Devroush [] has quit []
16:56<@Rubidium>and I ought to write paramater correctly next time
16:57<andythenorth>it appears to work
16:57<andythenorth>I didn't check if it works correctly though
17:01<Rhamphoryncus>Python doesn't care about the name of self. It just has to be the first argument
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17:02<andythenorth>does it even have to be first?
17:02<andythenorth>seems if I write def foo(_)
17:02<andythenorth>or def foo(bar, _)
17:03<valhallasw>conventions states it's 'self' for instance fns and 'cls' for static functions
17:03<Rhamphoryncus>The main advantage of explicit self is it's obvious "self.x = 11" assigns an attribute, not a local. To a much less degree this applies to reading out attributes too. Of course that doesn't make it necessary to put in the argument list
17:03*valhallasw hates reading C++/C#-code that doesn't use this->var
17:03<Rhamphoryncus>andythenorth: the latter would have bar as self
17:03<andythenorth>as long as I use _.stuff in __initi__ then all seems to be well
17:03<andythenorth>__init__ /s
17:04*SmatZ shares valhallasw's opinion
17:04<Rhamphoryncus>valhallasw: python has both static methods and class methods. static methods aren't passed any instance (they're just ordinary functions, but with a wrapper to prevent method binding), while it's class methods that use cls
17:05<Rhamphoryncus>andythenorth: not possible. Wanna put your example on a pastebin?
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17:05<Rhamphoryncus>valhallasw: I think openttd is spoiling me ;)
17:06<valhallasw>Rhamphoryncus: ah, you're right, I never knew that (I meant a class method, and called it 'static method' from a C#-perspective)
17:07<Rhamphoryncus>That's why I chimed in. A few other languages treat them as the same thing. If you can access the class through lexical scoping then they are the same thing
17:07<Rhamphoryncus>Which you CAN do in python, but class methods are passed the subclass, while the lexical scope would be the base class
17:09<andythenorth>Rhamphoryncus: I defer to you :)
17:09<@Rubidium>"class method" is a very confusing name, so please don't use it ;)
17:10<@Rubidium>in some languages it's the static method, in others it's the object/instance method
17:11<Rhamphoryncus>I was going to respond, but I've gotten lost in my head trying to remember the specifics of how classes are created
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17:12*andythenorth ponders actual...newgrf and stuff
17:12<Rhamphoryncus>And the descriptor protocol and how it's used for normal methods and class methods
17:12<andythenorth>BANDIT trucks have 0-3 trailers
17:12<andythenorth>I need some buy menu text about that
17:12<andythenorth>some trucks have no trailers (so they can route to drive-in stops)
17:12<Rhamphoryncus>(If anybody wants to learn metaclasses. I'll shoot you in the leg and we'll both go home better off.)
17:13<Rhamphoryncus>err, if you want to learn metaclasses *come to me*
17:13*valhallasw runs away
17:13<valhallasw>my proxy class is creepy enough
17:13<valhallasw>__getattribute__ hell
17:13<andythenorth>trucks with trailers are refittable to different numbers of trailers
17:13<andythenorth>so how much info is needed about this in buy menu?
17:14<valhallasw>Rhamphoryncus: object.__getattribute__(ProxyBase, '__getattribute__')(self, method)(*args, **kwargs) < beat that.
17:14<andythenorth>HEQS trams (similar) state things like "refittable to: 80t in four wagons, 180t in nine wagons, 300t in 15 wagons"
17:15<Rhamphoryncus>valhallasw: I forked CPython to totally redesign how threading worked. Consider yourself schooled.
17:16<andythenorth>maybe that's repeatable
17:16<andythenorth>I have to actually put buy menu strings in the lang file
17:16<andythenorth>I can't just compose them directly :P
17:16<andythenorth>same amount of code, different plan needed :P
17:17<Rhamphoryncus>In 20 years openttd's internationalization code will become self-aware.
17:18<andythenorth>I would settle for someone else doing the i18n on this project
17:19<andythenorth>assuming that anyone wants to translate it at all
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17:22<andythenorth>oh how interestink
17:22*andythenorth ponders a way to concatenate strings in NML without doing it properly with text stack
17:23<andythenorth>string(foo_string + bar_string) fails :)
17:23<andythenorth>for reasons I can guess
17:25<andythenorth>solve it in python, write an excessive number of strings :P
17:25<andythenorth>might be bad for future translations :(
17:27<@Rubidium>andythenorth: just write a wrapper that generates the right code for the operator ;)
17:29<@Terkhen>andythenorth: if your templating work becomes complex enough, it might be better to direct said work to implement templating in nml itself
17:29<@Terkhen>that would be the best solution :9
17:30<@Rubidium>only the third iteration ;)
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17:30<andythenorth>that's probably horribly plausible :P
17:30<andythenorth>I discussed that a bit with Yexo. It's not really desirable
17:30<@Rubidium>then you got most (pre)conditions clear
17:31<andythenorth>using external python templating is pretty trivial anyway
17:32<andythenorth>I can imagine a syntax for it in NML, but it might add unwanted complexity
17:32<andythenorth>NML is pretty nice as it stands
17:32<@Terkhen>then code a "precompiler" for nml :)
17:34<andythenorth>that is more plausible
17:34<andythenorth>BANDIT is pretty much a generic truck compiler already
17:34<andythenorth>assuming you agree with my design choices for trucks :P
17:34<andythenorth>generic / specific /s
17:34<andythenorth>we can have competing precompilers ;P
17:34<andythenorth>I think that a truly generic precompiler would have so much scaffolding and so many options that it would be hard to use
17:35<andythenorth>whereas writing a custom one per set is the work of half a day
17:35*andythenorth has lived through the web form generator wars
17:35<@Terkhen>I would like a generic one that allows the equivalent of "includes", "macros" and "defines"
17:36<@Terkhen>without all the CPP hassle
17:36<andythenorth>I have that
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17:36<andythenorth>it's just traded CPP hassle for python hassle ;P
17:36<@Terkhen>since I understand CPP and not python, I don't see the point :)
17:37<andythenorth>indeed ;)
17:37<andythenorth>although you weren't born knowing CPP
17:37<andythenorth>unless you are very unique
17:37<@Terkhen>yeah, but I already did the effort of learning it :P
17:37<@Terkhen>that code looks more readable, though
17:38<andythenorth>it's just more fun to have a templating language that has object(s) in scope
17:38<andythenorth>so you can call methods on them for example
17:38<andythenorth>and to have iterators
17:39<andythenorth>and also it's nice not to have groundhog day every time you ask a question, e.g.
17:39<@Terkhen>string1 ## string2 IIRC
17:39*andythenorth "I have a CPP question"
17:39<andythenorth>someone: "you're using the wrong tool"
17:39<andythenorth>repeat ad infinitum :P
17:40<andythenorth>got tiresome
17:40<andythenorth>Terkhen: try concatenating two variadic macros
17:40<andythenorth>I have the solution somewhere
17:40<@Terkhen>if there is not a right tool, how can you have a wrong one?
17:40*Terkhen never needed to do such complicated stuff
17:41<andythenorth>identifiers for articulated vehicle parts
17:42<andythenorth>means composing two variadic macros together
17:42<andythenorth>or finding alternatives
17:42<andythenorth>I achieved both :)
17:42<@Terkhen>oh, right, articulated vehicles
17:42<@Terkhen>those are quite confusing
17:43<andythenorth>eventually I had nice solutions using simple CPP, CPP variadic macros, CPP written out by python, then all python
17:43<andythenorth>all were fine
17:45<andythenorth>also I needed to do stuff like buy_menu_capacity = sum(truck, trailer_1, trailer_2) etc
17:45<andythenorth>easy in python
17:46<andythenorth>Terkhen: also, how is your job?
17:46<@Terkhen>fine, still learning what we are supposed to do
17:46<@Terkhen>but this part is interesting :)
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17:48<@Terkhen>IIRC nml can handle the + operator in most places
17:48<andythenorth>which is good :)
17:49<andythenorth>but the consist variables are mostly not available in purchase menu
17:49<andythenorth>and nml can't expose item properties in any way to expressions except via newgrf vars
17:50<@Terkhen>hmm... my nml is quite rusty, but I remember using variables
17:50<andythenorth>if it could do something like ${item.capacity} when compiling...then it would be interesting
17:50<andythenorth>and if it could have arbitrary properties on an item...
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17:50<@Terkhen>OO nml? :P
17:51<andythenorth>that's what I've approximated :)
17:51<@Terkhen>that would be nice
17:51<andythenorth>it's only one parsing step away from possibility
17:52<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause could probably figure it out
17:52<@Terkhen>allowing to access properties of already defined items
17:52<andythenorth>item properties is equivalent to dict syntax anyway
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17:53<andythenorth>why is it?
17:54<andythenorth>it's same syntax as python dict, except for using ';' as delimiter instead of ','
17:55<andythenorth>parsing it would probably be trivial
17:57*andythenorth needs to sleep
17:57<andythenorth>good night
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18:00<@Terkhen>yeah, sleeping sounds good
18:00<@Terkhen>good night
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18:07<Rhamphoryncus>Hmm, I do believe I need to implement a sort on the shared vehicle list when it gets loaded. Let's see how bad of an algorithm I can choose :D
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18:31<+michi_cc>Rhamphoryncus: If you (re)calculate something on load take very good care that the result will deterministically match what the server has at the same time. If not, you're on direct route to a desyncer.
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18:43<Rhamphoryncus>Yeah, I was thinking about that
18:46<+michi_cc>You probably don't do that, but as a general note: *Never* sort by memory address.
18:48<@planetmaker>by square of it? :-P
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22:17<Rhamphoryncus>michi_cc: My primary thing would be schedule offsets, but I was considering falling back to unitnumber if the offset was somehow the same. However, that should ONLY be for importing old save games; active games should always maintain it perfectly sorted.
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---Logclosed Sat Feb 04 00:00:22 2012