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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-02-06

---Logopened Mon Feb 06 00:00:23 2012
---Daychanged Mon Feb 06 2012
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00:28<DDR>So, I got a bit over a hundred years into my 400-year game, and then it hit me... building rails through this /mess/ of roads is going to be but a pain. :P
00:29<DDR>And, vam, the fun went out of it. :P
00:29<DDR>So close.
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04:18<dihedral>hello
04:51<@planetmaker>hm, new GSOC is announced http://google-opensource.blogspot.com/2012/02/google-summer-of-code-2012-is-on.html
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05:23<andythenorth>moin
05:24<andythenorth>my solution to generating cargo switches, including option to make a random choice of graphics: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1077/
05:25<andythenorth>I _could_ also now generate the cargo table, although that might be overkill
05:25<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: why do so many of your random_switches return results for 1 twice? <-- any particular example?
05:27<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: file that under 'andythenorth failed to understand the spec'
05:28<Eddi|zuHause>ah, you mean like "1: target"
05:28<andythenorth>yup
05:28<andythenorth>I get it now
05:28<andythenorth>I missed a whole paragraph of docs somehow :o
05:28<Eddi|zuHause>that's like "probability 1/n"
05:29*andythenorth is not good at probabilities :P
05:30<Eddi|zuHause>if you have a switch like "random:(3:3rd_class,2:2nd_class,2:1st_class)" then you have slightly more 3rd class than others
05:34<andythenorth>I don't know why probability is counter-intuitive
05:34<andythenorth>the maths is simple
05:34<andythenorth>in a binary situation, if you have 1 in 100 chance of case A, then you must have a 99/100 chance of case B
05:35<andythenorth>yet probability bamboozles lots of people
05:35<andythenorth>me included
05:35<andythenorth>something in some brains just doesn't grok it
05:36<@planetmaker>andythenorth: think differently, not in %
05:36<@planetmaker>think in fractions
05:36<@planetmaker>the total is the sum of the single numbers
05:36<andythenorth>of course :)
05:36<@planetmaker>thus the single probability is n/N where n is the single number and N = sum n_i
05:36<@planetmaker>what's dificult there?
05:37<@planetmaker>you understand a house accepting 3/8, too?
05:37<andythenorth>yes
05:37<andythenorth>the maths *is* simple
05:37<@planetmaker>nothing different there then in a random switch
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05:37<andythenorth>what puzzles me is why so many people have trouble with this simple maths
05:37<andythenorth>I don't have trouble making change
05:37<andythenorth>buy something for 75p, hand over £1, 25p change
05:37<andythenorth>same maths
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05:38<andythenorth>I can see no sensible explanation for why it's not obvious :O
05:38<@planetmaker>I have a box of 3 black, 2 red and 2 green marbles. what's the chance for black?
05:38<andythenorth>3/7
05:38<@planetmaker>3/7 :-)
05:38<@planetmaker>yeah
05:38<@planetmaker>that's how random switches work
05:39<@planetmaker>and no, we don't have to consider with or without putting back the marble. It's only selecting one :-)
05:39<andythenorth>if you gave me a list and pulled one value at random, I could tell you that the chance of any value is 1/len(list)
05:40<andythenorth>and if a value is repeated on that, I could do the maths on that too
05:40<andythenorth>mm
05:40<andythenorth>anyway - work...
05:40<@planetmaker>and the latter is what we have :-)
05:40<andythenorth>I think if I hadn't overlooked a paragraph of docs, I might have found it easier :P
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05:40<andythenorth>it's explained clearly enough
05:41*andythenorth -> making interwebs
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06:01<@peter1138>CAN I SEE YOU LASERS?
06:02<@peter1138>+R
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06:04<Elukka>are they immersed in a a thick enough gas or fluid
06:04<Elukka>and what is their wavelength
06:07<@planetmaker>peter1138: of course. once with each eye :-P
06:07<@planetmaker>(yes, I know where your quote comes from ;-) )
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06:31<Eddi|zuHause>oha... the "tour de dope" strikes again...
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07:41<Eddi|zuHause>i'll be away for a week or two...
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09:01<__ln__>does this look like a guy who won the presidential election the night before the photo was taken: http://i.imgur.com/Zl1SQ.jpg
09:06-!-Elu is now known as Elukka
09:07<Elukka>no but the point of that photo is probably to look like he's a NORMAL WORKING MAN JUST LIKE YOU
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09:59<@Belugas>hello
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10:21<supermop>hello
10:24<supermop>hey andythenorth, are you around?
10:24<supermop>what is a good way to draw pixels on a mac?
10:24<andythenorth>hola
10:24<andythenorth>photostrop
10:25<supermop>i'm at work and it is slow
10:25<supermop>hmm the big computer does has ps i think
10:25<andythenorth>there are swatches available for dos and windows palette
10:25<andythenorth>you can reliably export layered RGB to an indexed png
10:25<andythenorth>I've used both CS and CS5 for this
10:26<andythenorth>if not photoshop, dunno. Maybe gimp
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10:29<Elukka>photoshop is kinda stupid in that it doesn't let you have layers in indexed images
10:29<supermop>i use ps at home anyway so i will just work on a .psd that i can email back to myself
10:29<Elukka>i use a palette so i only select colors that exist in the openttd palette and then convert to indexed when i'm done
10:29<Elukka>but it'd be useful to have a layered, indexed image
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10:30<andythenorth>Elukka: you wouldn't gain that much
10:30<andythenorth>but yes
10:31<andythenorth>it would mean turning off (or modifying) all layer effects like blending and such
10:34<supermop>how big is the full extra zoom?
10:34<supermop>twice as big as normal?
10:35<V453000>4x max
10:35<supermop>so to re draw a train for full zoom I should scale by 400% and then trace it?
10:36<supermop>I was doing that with ogfx stations last night, but only at 200%
10:39<V453000>I guess ... I just draw in 100% and not bother about any zoom levels
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10:40<Elukka>i think i'd draw the 4x sprite, then just scale it down to get the 2x one
10:41<Elukka>i haven't tried though so i dunno if it works well enough
10:41<supermop>that what i want to do
10:42<Elukka>scaling it down further to 1x might provide a good basis for the sprite but at that scale one pixel being misplaced makes the whole thing look wrong so it'd take a lot of fixing
10:45<supermop>well you could retrace
10:46<supermop>currently i am scaling up regular sprites to trace, but eventually it would make sense to go the other way
10:51<supermop>anyway it would be fun to draw a monorail set
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10:51<supermop>loosely based on alweg/hitachi monorails
10:51<supermop>i sort of hate everything monorails stand for, which makes me more fascinated with them
10:53<supermop>for example, i often see them as a mid century boondoggle, sold on a sense of pseudo-futurism, that diverted attention from more important transit planning
10:53<supermop>but at the same time it is fun to buy into the wonder of what could have been, and look at what some cities have actually done with a fairly limited set of hardware
10:55<supermop>that being said, and alweg set, starting in 1959-60 with Disney and seattle units, and continuing to modern times with units based on the Tama monorail could be neat
10:56<supermop>so that one can play with monorails not as a step upgrade between steel rail and maglev in the near future, but as an alternative to heavy rail for passenger transit in urban areas, parallel to the rail network
10:57<supermop>anyway thats what i'lll draw in my downtime at work today
10:57<supermop>hold me to it
10:58<Elukka>okay
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10:59<supermop>heh
10:59<supermop>sorry for the diatribe
11:01<Elukka>zeerust.
11:01<Elukka>monorails are very zeerust
11:01<Elukka>http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Zeerust
11:01<supermop>yep
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11:03<Rhamphoryncus>Best explanation of it I've heard
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11:04<V453000>interesting. Is there an opposite?
11:04<V453000>My trains keep having that :D
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11:06<supermop>but that is the funny thing about monorails
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11:07<supermop>here in the US they are if anything the hight of retro-futurist kitsch,
11:08<supermop>which works to their advantage in their most prominent US installations: Disneyland, Disney World, and Seattle juxtaposed to the Space Needle
11:09<supermop>they seem just enough removed from real life practicalities (and common perceptions of mass transit) to be perfect in a tourist wonderland
11:09<Elukka>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d1/A_maglev_train_coming_out%2C_Pudong_International_Airport%2C_Shanghai.jpg
11:09<Elukka>i guess this is technically still monorail
11:10<supermop>but at the same time, there are on the other side of the world serious - and successful - commuter monorail systems
11:11<supermop>In Tokyo, Osaka, Kuala Lumpur etc
11:12<+michi_cc>Elukka: It might even be enough to not draw any 2x sprite at all and simple let OpenTTD handle it. If you don't have too many details the simple throw-every-second-pixel-away scaling might be okay.
11:13<Elukka>i guess
11:14<supermop>the strategy being to draw 1x and 4x sprites, and let ottd figure out the rest?
11:14<Elukka>i'd consider doing extra zoom level sprites if cets didn't already have so many sprite angles to draw
11:16<+michi_cc>Draw 2x with not too many extra details and hope 1x still looks good?
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11:54<frosch123>he, i did not expect eddi would reply to fs#5043 :p
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12:29<supermop>can't find a good monorail project from the 70s
12:31<Rhamphoryncus>IMO, monorails should be a tram variant. I don't see that working right any time soon though
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12:32<Rhamphoryncus>And I don't see why an elevated monorails would be better than elevated trams
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12:33<LordAro>good evening
12:36<Rhamphoryncus>yo
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12:39<supermop>why a tram variant?
12:40<supermop>a monorail trail should not get stuck in traffic?
12:42<Rhamphoryncus>Those tourist monorails are very light
12:42<supermop>but not all monorails are tourist-based
12:43<supermop>and currently rails allow many more different types and possibilities than road types
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12:45<Elukka>http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/Art%20and%20stuff/propulsion.png
12:45<Elukka>yay spaceships
12:45<Elukka>well it still needs the ship it's just the engine and stuff now
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13:32<__ln__>how to find the Laplace transform of integral[0,t] sin(2u)cos(t-u)du ? it's a convolution, yes, but what to do with the 2u?
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13:33<LordAro>so, um, patch review? wink, wink, nudge, nudge ;)
13:33<@planetmaker>if you don't like the 2u use the addition theorems to change it to other sin and cos terms
13:34<__ln__>thanks, i'll look into that
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r23904 /trunk/src/lang/ (8 files): (log message trimmed)
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: croatian - 4 changes by VoyagerOne
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: german - 4 changes by NG
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: italian - 2 changes by lorenzodv
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: norwegian_bokmal - 2 changes by mantaray
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: polish - 4 changes by wojteks86
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14:11<supermop>at full extra zoom,
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14:11<supermop>how many pixels are the left and right corners of a tile?
14:11<supermop>1 or 4?
14:12<andythenorth>4
14:12<andythenorth>if I understand your question
14:12<supermop>so redrawing a sprite for ez, i leave a sort of saw-tooth like tile edge?
14:13<supermop>with a 4:8 slope
14:13<frosch123>if it shall be compatible with other landscape sets, yes
14:13<supermop>or do i smooth it down to 1:2
14:13<frosch123>(including industry sets, house sets, ... i.e. everything with its own ground tiles)
14:13<@planetmaker>both would work... but the "default is the big zig-zag.
14:14<supermop>ok
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14:14<@Rubidium>huh?
14:14<@Rubidium>big zig-zag?
14:14<@planetmaker>steps for the tile borders
14:14<@Rubidium>why?
14:14<supermop>that make sense for a tile edge, but a train could have smoother 1:2 edges?
14:14<@planetmaker>yes
14:15<@Rubidium>why do you want the edges that zig-zaggy?
14:15<@planetmaker>Rubidium, I don't.
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14:15<frosch123>Rubidium: so they connect to other tiles?
14:15<@planetmaker>But what looks a 1x sprite zoomed-out like?
14:15<@planetmaker>*zoomed-in
14:15<@Rubidium>frosch123: so... draw all of them
14:15<@planetmaker>tbh, yes, it *should* be done
14:15<frosch123>as i said. if you disallow all house and industry sets ever released, you can change the slope
14:16<@planetmaker>frosch123, not really the slope, but the granularity
14:16<frosch123>otherwise everything with groundtiles from other grfs will glitch
14:16<supermop>wouldnt you just have a blurry overlap?
14:16<supermop>that doesnt sound bad to me
14:16<frosch123>you can try to make the zig-zag overlap
14:16<supermop>my main worry is at the left and right corners
14:17<frosch123>no idea whether that would work :)
14:17<supermop>where at regular zoom you have a 1:2 rectangle
14:17<supermop>but at full zoom it is 4:8?
14:18<supermop>this means the tile is now an even number of pixels tall instead of odd
14:18<frosch123>supermop: even the default tiles overlap at the edges
14:18<supermop>won't that cause problems?
14:19<supermop>how many pixels is the loading gauge at regular zoom (ie how much gap between platforms)
14:21*andythenorth wonders if someone will EZ FIRS
14:21<supermop>looking for sprites of stations to scrape off of forums to measure...
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14:25<supermop>looks like isr high platforms ar 7 pixels wide
14:26<supermop>and most seem to be 3 tall
14:28<supermop>seems a bit shallow
14:30<frosch123>andythenorth: print the graphics on a ballon and blow
14:31<frosch123>(also illustrates if you take extra zoom too far)
14:32<andythenorth>frosch123: photoshop has an option for that
14:32*andythenorth is slightly serious
14:33<frosch123>sounds like firs for toyland
14:33<frosch123>industry construction and destruction
14:33<@planetmaker>andythenorth, it would make sense to a certain extend
14:36<supermop>an '8/8' vehicle is half a tile right?
14:37<supermop>and they are typically '3/8' wide?
14:37<andythenorth>frosch123: planetmaker http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/2394/furniture_factory.png
14:37<andythenorth>nearest neighbour interpolation
14:37<andythenorth>same as what the game is doing :P
14:37<supermop>would 4/8 wide x 6/8 long look too chubby?
14:38<supermop>looks fine to me andy
14:38<@SmatZ>would that fit nicely into tunnels?
14:38<frosch123>supermop: http://users.tt-forums.net/pikka/wiki/index.php?title=Sprite_templates
14:38<@planetmaker>yes. But why would you provide that in FIRS then, andythenorth ?
14:38<andythenorth>exactamly
14:39<@planetmaker>You could start to draw 4x sprites, though ;-)
14:39<andythenorth>I could yes
14:39<andythenorth>but I think life is short
14:39<frosch123>you only have to click 16x as often
14:40<Elukka>tablets!
14:40<@planetmaker>hm... xerox microscopy?
14:40<frosch123>anyway. isn't zoom in so you can see all the details? so why add smaller details? :p
14:41<@planetmaker>put on copy machine, set to max. zoom and copy. Repeat until you can see atoms :-P
14:41<@planetmaker>haha, frosch123 :-)
14:41<@planetmaker>1:1 RL scale :-P
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14:42<@planetmaker>you can then examine the screws of the cars and trains
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14:45<supermop>ok lunch interrupts
14:45<Wolf01>evenink
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15:11<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23905 /trunk/os/windows/installer/install.nsi: -Fix [FS#5045]: OpenMSX got downloaded to and extracted in the wrong (non-existent) folder
15:11<supermop>hmm
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15:12<supermop>it seems that even a very wide train (4/8) still would have large gaps between it and the platform edge
15:12<supermop>should I make the train wider, or the platforms wider?
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15:13<supermop>at regular zoom you don't notice it, but it looks silly at ez
15:14<@Rubidium>I'd say the platform
15:14<@Rubidium>as the train will look chubby pretty quickly
15:14<frosch123>yeah, ez guys already make the vehicles to high
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15:14<supermop>i like chubby trains personally
15:15<@planetmaker>they're good for toyland :-)
15:15<supermop>rather than realistic proportions
15:15<supermop>they look cute and characatured
15:15<@planetmaker>well. TTD is not realistic either. But trains are not exactly chubby
15:16<supermop>but I can only change one at a time, either make a train set or a station set
15:16<supermop>and stations aren't supported yet in nml
15:16<@planetmaker>Don't let that be a reason to set wrong standards
15:16<@planetmaker>starting wrong makes for a sad future
15:17<supermop>well changing either platforms or gauge, either one would no longer be standard
15:18<supermop>bigger platforms and you can no longer use other platform sets, although the other train sets are narrow enough that they would be fine
15:19<supermop>bigger trains might fit well in existing station sets but look silly next to other trains
15:19<supermop>basically, a tile is 16 units to a side,
15:20<supermop>currently 3 of those are train, and a total of 7-8 are platform
15:20<supermop>so you are left with 5-6 units of gap
15:21<supermop>sigh
15:22<supermop>4 unit wide platforms work well for building station tiles modularly
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15:23<supermop>well ill work to standards for now
15:24<supermop>if i really hate it ill have to make all new everything anyway
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15:33<Rhamphoryncus>I thought it was funny when I saw a 6 horse carriage with 0 hp. No, it really does have no power x_x
15:35*andythenorth does ponder
15:36*andythenorth does write the internets
15:36<MNIM>yeah, that needs fixing :d
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15:36<andythenorth>should I fix this? http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/3650
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15:43<MNIM>leave it.
15:43<MNIM>the second option is a guaranteed problem, the third option...
15:44<MNIM>well, if eddi says it's a can of worms, it probably is.
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15:47<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23906 /trunk/src/network/network_gui.cpp: -Codechange: replace magic numbers with named constants (adf88)
15:51<andythenorth>I should probably UPPER_CASE most string ids, with some ugly UPPER_lower mix :P
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16:28<andythenorth>does ottd concatenate any mixed case string identifiers?
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16:34<supermop>man i have no idea what that means
16:35<supermop>my little monorail is coming along though
16:35<supermop>real work keeps popping up though...
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16:36<@Rubidium>andythenorth: we're not concatenating at all
16:36<andythenorth>k
16:37<andythenorth>I don't have a nice way to avoid it
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16:38<andythenorth>guess I should just live with mixed case
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16:50<@Terkhen>good night
16:50<Zuu>good evening
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16:53<frosch123>night
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17:08<Wolf01>'night
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17:13<andythenorth>good night
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20:46<Rhamphoryncus>Are UKRS trains supposed to be so expensive to maintain? Set to medium running cost a 2-8-0 for me is 70k/year, whereas a dutch NS6300 is only 12k/year. I initially assumed the dutch one was just really cheap, but with the 2-8-0 I can't even hit the running cost, nevermind all the other costs
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---Logclosed Tue Feb 07 00:00:54 2012