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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-02-08

---Logopened Wed Feb 08 00:00:17 2012
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04:26*andythenorth has half a day off
04:26<andythenorth>what will I code?
04:28<murr4y>you will... create pacman in coffescript
04:29<andythenorth>pacman in newgrf + AI might be interesting
04:29<andythenorth>newgrf + AI + nogo
04:31*andythenorth will probably do BANDIT instead
04:31<andythenorth>maybe truck purchase cost and run cost can be calculated
04:35<andythenorth>how many levels of indirection are too many? :P
04:36<andythenorth>truck cost coefficient -> truck cost derived from weight, length, speed, hp etc -> running cost factor in nfo -> base cost -> game difficulty settings -> result
04:43<andythenorth>dealing with things that vary by consist length just got a lot easier
04:43<andythenorth>e.g. truck where more trailers = more weight, higher run cost
04:43<andythenorth>I can just chain method calls from the template
04:44<andythenorth>e.g. return ${vehicle.get_run_cost(trailers=1)}
04:44<andythenorth>that method would chain to self.get_weight(trailers=trailers)
04:44<andythenorth>returning a result
04:44<andythenorth>anyway /me bbl
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05:39<@peter1138>what, no complete 32bpp ez set yet?
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06:30<@Rubidium>peter1138: yeah, all the effort we put in to get 32bpp ez support in trunk and they still are not using it...
06:30<@Rubidium>next they'll say that you need an ancient version of OpenTTD to get 32bpp ez support
06:36<Ammler>planetmaker: should include 32bpp to opengfx :-P
06:37<@Rubidium>then $someone must at 32bpp support to nml
06:37<@Rubidium>there's already a patch for grf container version 2 floating around somewhere
06:38<Ammler>hmm, I thought that is in long ago or just ez?
06:38<@Rubidium>the old method got axed
06:38<@Rubidium>(in OpenTTD)
06:38<@Rubidium>as it's horridly slow
06:39<@peter1138>nml's not patched? heh
06:40<@Rubidium>not for storing 32bpp sprites in the GRF
06:43<Ammler>are there already 32bpp grfs on bananas?
06:44<@Rubidium>I doubt it
06:45<@peter1138>does/will bananas handle handing out stripped grfs?
06:45<@Rubidium>no/when somebody codes that
07:23<@planetmaker>changing bananas to strip the EZ sprites IMHO has less priority than making such (New)GRFs in the first place
07:23<@planetmaker>and Ammler : yes, it should include those
07:24<@planetmaker>When NML supports it
07:24<@planetmaker>it should also support EZ 8bpp
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07:33<@planetmaker>Ammler, I'd very welcome to get collections of usable blender files which could be used for this end
07:34<@planetmaker>some buildings certainly might apply
07:38<Ammler>planetmaker: currently I would like to get opengfx/nml working for 8bpp :-)
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07:39<Ammler>someone any clue what those sprites are?
07:40<@planetmaker>river mouths
07:40<Ammler>yes, are you able to point me to the source?
07:40<@planetmaker>looks like ogfx+extra
07:40<V453000>oh rivers :)
07:40<@planetmaker>sprites/nml/extra/rivers.pnml or so
07:41<Ammler>new is by nml/pytnon 2.7, the others are randomly different
07:41<Ammler>planetmaker: or so :-P
07:41<Ammler>but any clue, why there are such sprites?
07:42<@planetmaker>the garbled ones?
07:42<@planetmaker>no idea whatsoever
07:42<Ammler>those aren't in the official release
07:42<@planetmaker>they're generated by gimp
07:42<@planetmaker>maybe that fails?
07:42<@planetmaker>yes, iirc they are
07:42<Ammler>gimp and without gimp produces the same result
07:43<@planetmaker>very strange
07:43<@planetmaker>you should be able to treat rivers.pnml basically as a separate grf, if you add a header
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07:43<@planetmaker>thus you'd have a small test case. Relatively small.
07:43<@planetmaker>It might still be 1k sprites
07:44<Ammler>yes, that does also not help me find those sprites
07:44<Ammler>what we know is that those images aren't part of the source, right?
07:45<Ammler>so they are generated by nml, but why?
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07:46<@planetmaker>NML cannot generate images
07:47<@planetmaker>but of course it writes the grf, thus extracts it from the pngs
07:47<@planetmaker>it's worth looking which (source pngs) end up garbled
07:47<Ammler>yes, but how would you find those?
07:48<@planetmaker>compile the pnml to nfo and lookup the sprite number
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07:48<@planetmaker>nmlc --nfo blub.nfo rivers.pnml
07:48<Ammler>I have the sprite number
07:48<@planetmaker>yes. But then you know which
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07:48<@planetmaker>but it looks to me like temperate river mouths
07:49<@planetmaker>not sure whether there are empty sprites
07:49<@planetmaker>like only transparent. Worth looking into
07:49<Ammler>well, the release skips those sprites
07:49<Ammler>as you see on new, those are 0,0
07:50<@planetmaker>hm, yes
07:51<@planetmaker>you're comparing default branch and 0.4 branch?
07:51<@planetmaker>I don't think (nor hope) so
07:51<@planetmaker>so where does 'release' come into it?
07:52<Ammler>I compare grf made with python 2.7
07:52<Ammler>to grf made with python 2.6
07:52<@planetmaker>good. py2.6 = old and py2.7 = new, right?
07:52<@planetmaker>both from the opengfx 0.4 branch, same revision
07:52<Ammler>devzone uses py2.7
07:53<Ammler>yes, same source
07:53<Ammler> <-- compare 3133 with other sets
07:54<Ammler>(might need some time to load)
07:54<@planetmaker>let's test (here) with py 2.5
07:54<Ammler>then compare the md5sum
07:54<Ammler>then run grf2html
07:55<Ammler>you will have those strange random sprites
07:55<Ammler>but only on set2
07:56<Ammler>it is like you use broken images there and newer python ignores it
07:56<@planetmaker>this machine is quite slow. So expect results in 30 minutes+ :-)
07:56<Ammler>you can safely disable gimp
07:57<Ammler>planetmaker: I just wonder, shouldn't it be easy to find set2 easy in the nml code?
07:57<@planetmaker>yes... did you look at the nml?
07:58<@planetmaker>then you'd quickly find the rivermouths block
07:58<@planetmaker>for temperate climate
08:00<V453000>compiling opengfx takes 30 minutes?
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08:01<@planetmaker>if you create each and every image from the gimp source files it may. Depending on speed of your computer
08:01<Ammler>set_rivermouth_snow <-- set2 right?
08:01<V453000>wow :)
08:01<Ammler>and gimp does not allow running parallel threads
08:02<Ammler>so it indeed takes much longer to build opengfx than openttd :-)
08:02<@planetmaker>Ammler, from the gfx it looks like it really should be rivermouths_temperate - and not the snowy one
08:02<@planetmaker>might be re-ordered by nml
08:03<Ammler>planetmaker: so the first one in thes ource?
08:03<@planetmaker>I'd think so
08:03<@planetmaker>compare with the png :-)
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08:04<Ammler>[ 241, 1, 64, 23, -31, 0, "sprites/png/terrain/waterfeatures/rivermouth_temperate_ne.gimp.png"] <-- so the first bad one
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08:08<Ammler>first view, it doesn't look bad
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08:08<Ammler>all gimp pngs in that folder are at least 8bit indexed
08:08<@planetmaker>looks like a normal png
08:08<@planetmaker>those probably aren't even generated by gimp. Not sure though
08:09<Ammler>well, they end with gimp.png, shouldn't they then?
08:09<@planetmaker>hm, indeed :-)
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08:11<@planetmaker>hm. weired.
08:11<Ammler>nmlc: "input", line 13: Encountered unknown template identifier: tmpl_level_ground_file <-- not that easy to build just the rivers nml
08:11<@planetmaker>it should rather use rivermouth_temperate_XX.gimp.png
08:12<@planetmaker>just copy - paste that template file then
08:12<Ammler>well, I have no clue, how that would help
08:12<@planetmaker>makes for a smaller grf to build
08:12<@planetmaker>and one could then cut-out those sets which are the same
08:13<@planetmaker>thus target the point it fails more closely
08:13<@planetmaker>like you could slash away the climate switch
08:13<@planetmaker>and only make temperate rivers then
08:14<@planetmaker>ha, gimp is done creating pngs for ogfx1_base.grf :-)
08:14<Ammler>you don't need gimp for this check
08:15<@planetmaker>yes, still I want to build OpenGFX on python 2.5 to check
08:15<@planetmaker>and thus I need to run make completely
08:16<@planetmaker>Ammler, which NML version did you use to obtain the respective results?
08:18<@planetmaker>ok. Hm. I build this one now with 0.2.x head
08:19<Ammler>is that different?
08:20<Ammler>there you can click on the build status "succeeded or failed" and get the full build log
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08:21<Ammler>there is also a package openttd-opengfx-without-gimp
08:22<@planetmaker>btw, Ammler, that I see that page: Could you change the description for OpenGFX
08:23<@planetmaker>It's a "graphics baseset for OpenTTD"
08:23<@planetmaker>And not a replacement :-)
08:26<@planetmaker>also it does not supply all required base set files. It has no sound. But NoSound is integral part of OpenTTD, so a missing won't be noticed
08:26<@planetmaker>anyway, are you around tonight, Ammler ?
08:26<Ammler>oh well, I do but this discription is not really public..., there is uses the desc from the spec
08:26<Ammler>planetmaker: yes, I am
08:26<@planetmaker>I'd like to postpone further investigation till then
08:26<@planetmaker>work work and RL ;-)
08:27<@planetmaker>well, still. Official or not. The desc there sounds quite wrong to me :-)
08:27<Ammler>OpenGFX is an open source graphics base set designed to be used by OpenTTD.
08:27<Ammler>OpenGFX provides a set of free and open source base graphics, and aims to
08:27<Ammler>ensure the best possible out-of-the-box experience with OpenTTD.
08:27<Ammler>that is in the spec
08:28<@planetmaker>maybe we should replace the "desgined to be used by" with a "for"
08:30<Ammler>no clue, where I have that from, readme?
08:30<Ammler>It's for sure not my own invention :-)
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08:43<@planetmaker>no, it's my invention
08:43<@planetmaker>or rather we discussed it some time (year?) ago
08:43<Ammler>the summaries and descriptions might need some review anyway
08:43<@planetmaker>for sure there's a bug tracker issue about it
08:44<@planetmaker>most likely closed since then, though
08:44<Ammler>since opengfx are the default graphics for openttd ;-)
08:49<Ammler>planetmaker: <-- this are the packages, which I will submit to the suse factory (standard repo), please review the specs there for Summary and Description
08:50<Ammler>or if you find something else, just tell
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08:54<@planetmaker>0c351293517a91ed76ebef1239e3c10d ogfxe_extra.grf with python 2.5.2
08:54<Ammler>yes, different
08:54<Ammler>but pure white is something new
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08:57<Ammler>yes, same here
08:57<Ammler>no pure white
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08:58<Ammler> <-- the patch I run
08:58<@planetmaker>anyway, the resulting grf has also the garbled real sprites
08:58<swissfan91>afternoon all :)
08:59<Ammler>my fan :-)
09:00<swissfan91>anyone got any ideas of any landscape objects that would fit in an alpine landscape?
09:01<andythenorth>trees :P
09:01<@planetmaker>hiking hut
09:01<andythenorth>snow groomer
09:01<@planetmaker>summit cross
09:01<andythenorth>animated avalance
09:01<andythenorth>avalanche /s
09:02<Ammler>cablecar is a railtype :-)
09:02<@planetmaker>outlook tower
09:02<andythenorth>sheep fold
09:02<@planetmaker>picknick place
09:03<swissfan91>trees - I'm not skilled enough for. Hiking hut - Yes!. Snow groomer - already part of TARS pistes. goats - Yes!. cable car - already part of TARS Mountain Lifts. Summit cross - Yes!. Avalanche - o_o.
09:03<@planetmaker>glacier rift
09:03<swissfan91>outlook tower - possibly. sheep fold - part of TARS industry. picnic place - yes.
09:05<swissfan91>i presume it is possible to change river sprites to appear completely iced over when above the snowline?
09:05<@planetmaker>oh, and a restaurant as new object to be placed on hills etc
09:05<swissfan91>restaurant - TARS pistes/TARS town objects
09:05<Ammler>planetmaker: also If I found the bad sprites, what should I do then?
09:06<@planetmaker>well. it's feasible. But I'd not do that as it will give weired results
09:06<@planetmaker>Ammler, not sure :-)
09:06<@planetmaker>find out why it's bad
09:06<swissfan91>weird? how so?
09:06<@planetmaker>swissfan91, boats can still go there, so it should remain shippable
09:06<@planetmaker>thus: mostly ice free rivers
09:06<@planetmaker>I DO have river sprites with icy edges and also snow transition in OpenGFX
09:07<Ammler>apline has no frozen rivers
09:07<@planetmaker>one could add a few ice pieces floating around there for the full snow version
09:07<Ammler>at least not that I am aware of
09:07<@planetmaker>but... rivers in the alps aren't frozen
09:07<swissfan91>I was thinking if they were fully iced, then glaciers could be drawn easier
09:07<@planetmaker>they're too steep and too rapid
09:07<@planetmaker>wrong approach, swissfan91
09:07<@planetmaker>glaciers = objects
09:07<@planetmaker>rivers = rivers
09:08<swissfan91>hmmmm, yes.
09:08<swissfan91>I agree with the floating ice pieces idea. that would look nice.
09:08<swissfan91>perhaps having a large area with glacier newobjects placed on, and then that funnelling into an icy river
09:08<Ammler>and make the glacier shrink during time :-)
09:09<Ammler>glacier have half size compared to 50 years back?
09:09<swissfan91>that would take some very clever coding, no?
09:10<Ammler>:-) no clue
09:10<swissfan91>I think my first thing to change - when I have time - will be to add snow/rock transitions.
09:11<Ammler>you could ask SAC for help :-P
09:12<swissfan91>i'm hoping to release a teaser version of TARS objects very soon.
09:12<swissfan91>which I hope will ignite some interest.
09:13*andythenorth ponders
09:14<andythenorth>variable running costs - according to load amount?
09:17<@planetmaker>no game play effect
09:17<@planetmaker>i.e.: work not well spend IMHO
09:18<swissfan91>does OTTD have a wind direction?
09:18<andythenorth>variable running costs - less while not moving?
09:18<@planetmaker>look at the small airport or the coal powerplant, swissfan91
09:19<andythenorth>ottd has two wind directions afaik
09:19<swissfan91>ah yes.
09:23<Ammler>how boring would it be with one only
09:23<Elukka>wind direction is like the least important thing
09:23<Elukka>wind goes more than one way in real life :P
09:24<Ammler>but maybe a good idea to have same wind direction per object
09:26<Ammler>hmm, where goes smoke of a standing stream?
09:27<Ammler>rather diesel maybe :-)
09:27<swissfan91>true, but then you could argue that light direction changes in real life.
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09:27<swissfan91>i only asked in case there was one standard direction that people used when drawing.
09:27<Ammler>well, there you have the issue that train is in motion,
09:27<@planetmaker>most orient wind on the power plant
09:28<Ammler>swissfan91: I hope you ask so you can draw it to another direction :-P
09:29<swissfan91>i'm only making a quick flagpole so TARS landscapes has something in it for the teaser :P
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09:34<swissfan91>that's a quick attempt at it
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09:37<@planetmaker>bah, I know (again) why I hate imageshacks
09:37<@planetmaker>slow. works poorly. overloaded with ads.
09:37<@planetmaker>and I still don't see the image
09:38<@planetmaker>even after I disabled adblock+ for that page
09:38<swissfan91>oh, that's odd.
09:38<@planetmaker>I call that usual
09:39<Ammler>blocker scripts suck anyway
09:39<swissfan91>odd in that I see it fine when I click it.
09:41<TinoDidriksen>Works fine for me with NoScript and AdBlock+
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09:44<Ammler>planetmaker: I think, as gimp isn't the issue, it should rather be a png which isn't from gimp
09:47<Ammler>hmm, and waterfeatures.png is decoded png :-(
09:49<Ammler>spriteset(set_rivermouth_temperate, "") <-- couldn't you "hardcode" the set number?
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09:52<andythenorth>Ammler: planetmaker what problem are you solving?
09:52<@planetmaker>different grf on different python. Most problematic are some garbled real sprites
09:53<Ammler>and of course, since nml doc is on same wiki with nfo, search is useless :-)
09:53<@planetmaker>on some pythons
09:53<andythenorth>have you narrowed down which pythons?
09:53<@planetmaker>< 2.7
09:53<andythenorth>I have 2.6.1, want me to test?
09:53<@planetmaker>yes. Build ogfxe_extra from OpenGFX
09:53<andythenorth>it's likely PIL, or a dep (like the png library if that's separate)
09:54<andythenorth>but I guess you know that :P
09:54<@planetmaker>run grf2html and look at the real sprites ^^
09:54<andythenorth>I'll checkout and such
09:54<andythenorth>is this in the OpenGFX repo?
09:54<@planetmaker>mind, build the 0.4 branch of OpenGFX. Which wants NML 0.2.x
09:55<@planetmaker>thus I first need to "up" my NML to the 0.2 branch ;-)
09:55<Ammler>planetmaker: is it different with ogfx default?
09:55<andythenorth>I'll have to up NML
09:55<@planetmaker>Ammler, I didn't test
09:56<@planetmaker>Ammler, but the sprite numbers would be different at least since I could cut quite a bit which is backward compatibility to OpenTTD <= 1.1
09:56<andythenorth>is there a target for building ogfxe_extra?
09:57<@planetmaker>there's not. Unless you could try "make ogfxe_extra.grf"
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09:57<@planetmaker>not sure it will barf or not
09:57<andythenorth>might work
09:57<Ammler>same issue with default
09:57<Ammler>just there it is sprite 3032
09:57<andythenorth>I just call nmlc on something?
09:58<Ammler>andythenorth: you don't need to use older nml or ogfx
09:58<Ammler>the issue is everywhere :-(
09:58<andythenorth>well let me test now I'm on 0.2 and 0.4
09:58<Ammler>planetmaker: what nml does ogfx default use?
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10:00*andythenorth wonders which switches nml needs
10:00<andythenorth>to build a grf
10:03<andythenorth>nmlc --grf=ogfxe_extra.nml ?
10:04<Ammler>--grf and -nml?
10:05<andythenorth>it's funny, I can't find an example in docs or tutorial
10:05<Ammler>nmlc example.grf
10:05<andythenorth>must be there
10:05<Ammler>ah no
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10:05<Ammler>nmlc example.nml
10:06<Ammler>but use make
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10:06<andythenorth>make: *** No rule to make target `Makefile.dep', needed by `ogfxe_extra.grf'. Stop.
10:07*peter1138 yawns
10:07<@planetmaker>Ammler, nml trunk
10:08<Ammler>maybe you need at least once to run make without target
10:08<@peter1138>has jupix twigged yet?
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10:08<@planetmaker>andythenorth, probably you'll need simply run make w/o any frills
10:08<Ammler>or is that missing dep script?
10:08<@planetmaker>Ammler, probably that's missing the dep. yes
10:09<Ammler>planetmaker: according to devzone, the issue exists on ogfx nightly too
10:12<Ammler>I used 0.4 because that is what I have on the obs and run on different distros
10:19*andythenorth has lost grf2html
10:19<Ammler>java tool
10:20<Ammler>you should be able to run the one from tt-forums
10:20<andythenorth>you've verified this exists without gr2html?
10:20<andythenorth>could be grf2html in that case
10:20<Ammler>with py2.7, those sprites are empty 0,0
10:20<andythenorth>unlikely to be grf2html of course
10:20<Ammler>with < 2.7 those are the ugly random sprites
10:21<Ammler>the md5sum is different
10:21<andythenorth>is the extra stuff a 'normal' grf or base set?
10:21*andythenorth is trying to test in game
10:22<Ammler>it's opengfx
10:22<andythenorth>I'll get grf2html
10:22<Ammler>if you change the grfid, I guess, you could add it as newgrf
10:23<Ammler>I wonder, nobody misses those sprites yet
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10:24<andythenorth>compile required
10:25<Ammler>andythenorth: we do not need confirmation, we know there is an issue
10:25<Ammler>we need to know, how to fix it :-)
10:26<andythenorth>it's likely PIL, but that is quite a big assumption
10:26<Ammler>I would bet a lot against :-P
10:26<andythenorth>I can't verify that I have the issue locally
10:27*andythenorth has idea
10:27<Ammler>andythenorth: run md5sum
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10:27<Ammler>and compare with the release
10:29<Ammler>working pil is 1.1.7
10:29<Ammler>could that be?
10:30<Ammler>centos6 has 1.1.6
10:30<Ammler>looks like the version is bound to python?
10:30<Ammler>python 2.7 and pil 1.1.7, python 2.6 and pil 1.1.6?
10:31<Ammler>I have no older distro with working nml here
10:31<Ammler>but pm tested with 2.5, planetmaker what pil do you have?
10:33*Ammler still waits for andythenorth enlighten idea :-)
10:33*andythenorth is still trying to verify issue
10:33<Ammler>use the java from tt-forums
10:33<andythenorth>where is md5 sum for release of 0.4 branch of ogfxe_extra.grf?
10:34<andythenorth>grf2html has no mac release
10:34<andythenorth>and won't compile
10:34<andythenorth>it's crashing under WINE
10:34<andythenorth>that's 0.4.1?
10:34<andythenorth>I should build 0.4.1 branch?
10:34<Ammler>yes, as the filename shold tell
10:34<andythenorth>I built 0.4
10:34<Ammler>well, did you test with nightly?
10:35*andythenorth switches
10:35<Ammler>there is no switch in hg :-P
10:35<andythenorth>there is hg up though :P
10:35<Ammler>andythenorth: you need to built a version you can compare with devzone
10:35<Ammler>it would also fail with nightlies
10:36<andythenorth>so tip will do?
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10:36<Ammler>if tip is r905
10:38<Ammler>the issue is also that there isn't a single md5sum for the old distros, it has random sums
10:39<Ammler>so we are kinda lucky, the newer distro (openSUSE_Tumbleweed in this case) does skip those ugly sprites
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10:39<Ammler>so it does at least on openSUSE and Fedora build the same
10:39<Ammler>and the LTS distros fail
10:41<Ammler>but every failed distro has another md5sum
10:48<andythenorth>md5s don't match for some items in r905
10:51*andythenorth has PIL 1.1.7 with python 2.6.1
10:51<andythenorth>but why opengfx?
10:51<andythenorth>why not FIRS or other sets?
10:52<andythenorth>is it a predictable set of images being corrupted?
10:53<@planetmaker>that's the questions which need answers
10:54<Ammler>andythenorth: I see at least 4 sprites with grf2html
10:54*andythenorth wonders why some of the src pngs are 299.999 DPI
10:54<andythenorth>instead of 72 DPI
10:55<Ammler>you find some issues on the river sprites?
10:55<andythenorth>I'm looking
10:55<Ammler>why does DPI matter?
10:55<andythenorth>probably doesn't
10:57<andythenorth>it's certainly not necessary to have ~300 DPI pngs though
10:57<Ammler>how can a png care about DPI at all?
10:57<andythenorth>I'm not sure it does
10:57<andythenorth>might just be photoshop being odd
10:58<andythenorth>or metadata in the png
10:58<andythenorth>I doubt it's significant anyway
10:58<@Rubidium>for openttd/grfcodec dpi doesn't matter at all
10:59<Ammler>well, you are the artist, you used the words "~300 DPI pngs"
10:59<Ammler>that doesn't make sense to me :-)
10:59<@Rubidium>it's a somewhat stupid conversion scale
10:59<@Rubidium>though basically everything ignores it
11:00<Ammler>yes, it could matter for printing or screens
11:00<Ammler>maybe it is a metadata to tell how you should print it?
11:01<@Rubidium>and even there it's rarely used
11:01<@Rubidium>either you want it full page, or fit something, but rarely it's the dpi from the image
11:01<@Rubidium>dpi is really a bogus value
11:02<Ammler>and doesn't mac and pc screens have different DPI? 72 and 96?
11:02<Ammler>but that might be gone with hd
11:02<@Rubidium>or the dpi of a digital photo should be enormously high given the number of pixels per inch in the ccd
11:03<@Rubidium>my monitor is near 200 dpi, an old monitor not. Yet... every website I visit doesn't care
11:03<@Rubidium>all sizes of images are in pixels
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11:03<Ammler>ah, maybe that was something about fonts
11:06<Ammler>planetmaker: I wonder, if nobody complains about missing sprites in the new opengfx, we might simply remove those 4 sprites, maybe those aren't needed?
11:06<Ammler>doesn't grf have some directions, which aren't supported in openttd?
11:07<andythenorth>wrt DPI, it's more that I wondered if it's a tell-tale from a particular program
11:07<andythenorth>which might also be outputting pngs that PIL doesn't like
11:07<andythenorth>but I don't like this kind of guesswork
11:08<andythenorth>I could try batching all the pngs with photoshop, but I have no way to test for corruption
11:08<Ammler>andythenorth: did you find pngs in rivers with different DPI?
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11:08<Ammler>could you paste a list?
11:08<andythenorth>I'll check the others now
11:09<Ammler>well, you need at least 2 to have difference :-P
11:09<andythenorth>other pngs in the project have ~72 and ~96 DPI
11:09<Ammler>and waterfeatures.png has?
11:10<andythenorth>waterfeatures/riverrapids.png same
11:10<andythenorth>there are a lot of files to check there :P
11:10<Ammler>could you change it and provide a patch?
11:11<Ammler>let me check, if I see DPI in gimp
11:11<@Rubidium>Ammler: in the resize window
11:11<andythenorth>it's more likely that its related to the png output from the program used than the specific DPI
11:11<andythenorth>unless 299.999 hits some edge case in PIL :P
11:15<andythenorth>Ammler: I attached a couple of files to
11:15<andythenorth>dunno if it helps
11:15<andythenorth>worth at least eliminating this guess though
11:15<Ammler>I changed it to 72
11:15<Ammler>and building again, let's see :-)
11:15<andythenorth>no difference?
11:15<andythenorth>oh....time to make tea :)
11:16<Ammler>still 0,0
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11:17<Ammler>so if that matters, it's at least not waterfeatures.png
11:17<Ammler>but why should it matter just for one specific file :-)
11:17<andythenorth>could be GIMP
11:17<Ammler>well, yes
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11:18<Ammler>gimp builds the same pngs on every distro
11:19<Ammler>so how could it work just for 4 not?
11:19*andythenorth is not good at this science
11:19<@Rubidium>Ammler: you confirmed the md5sum matched?
11:20<Ammler>Rubidium: we run hg st on devzone
11:20<Ammler>it would complain, if devzone builds other png as planetmaker uploaded
11:21<@Rubidium>so you also build the 4 failing distros on the devzone?
11:21<Ammler>hg st 1>> ../%{name}/%{name}-%{version}-build.err.log 2>>../%{name}/%{name}-%{version}-build.err.log
11:21<Ammler>[[ $(hg st -m) ]] && exit
11:22<Ammler>Rubidium: no, but pm builds on very acient os
11:22<Ammler>and he confirmed it fails on his os too
11:22<@Rubidium>but also with the same (ancient) gimp as is running on the 4 distros where things fail?
11:22<Ammler>it doesn't make difference there
11:23<Ammler>with or without gimp
11:23<andythenorth>what are the varying elements?
11:23<andythenorth>we have no evidence of corruption elsewhere from different python versions
11:23<@planetmaker>ehm... python 2.5 with gimp 2.4 is not *that* outdated
11:23<andythenorth>unless we find evidence in other grfs, it's reasonable to assume something is screwy with the input
11:23<andythenorth>as that is main point of variation
11:24<@planetmaker>andythenorth, other grfs are not thoroughly tested in that respect
11:24<@planetmaker>I guess it'd never show, as they're only built by the devzone and maybe the author
11:24<Ammler>I have same issue with opengfx build on systems without gimp
11:24<@planetmaker>but not by the opensuse CF for every distro there
11:24<@Rubidium>planetmaker: true, it's only OpenTTD 0.5-ish
11:25<andythenorth>afaict, there's not much variation in PIL versions?
11:25<@planetmaker>hu, Rubidium ?
11:25<@planetmaker>the age of them, you mean?
11:25<@Rubidium>planetmaker: yes
11:26<@Rubidium>GIMP 2.4 is october 2007, Python 2.5 is September 2006
11:26<Ammler>if gimp would be the issue, then it should fail on factory too, shoulndn't it?
11:27<Ammler>and if gimp would be the issue, the DevZone would complain about pm's pngs
11:27<@Rubidium>depends on whether you mean gimp in general, or a particular subset of gimp instances
11:27<@Rubidium>but if rebuilding the pngs doesn't change them, then it's not the rebuilding that's the problem
11:27<@Rubidium>what happens when you emit nfo and build that with grfcodec?
11:28<@Rubidium>same corruption or not?
11:28<@Rubidium>if it's not corrupted, then there's something in the graphics code, otherwise there might be something wrong in the code that determines the location of the sprite
11:29<@Rubidium>alternatively you could disable cropping and see whether that yields corrupted grfs
11:29<Ammler>well, the fact that it starts at sprite above 3000 excluded some generic thing, doesn't?
11:29<MNIM>for some reason I read 'disable groping' and 'corrupted girls' in Rubidium's last line.
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11:30<Ammler>we already excluded cropping irrc
11:30*Rubidium advices a visit to the optician to MNIM
11:31<Ammler>but cropping is also something which should cause issue below sprite 3000
11:32<Ammler>I mean, it is fantastic, i can exactly say, which sprite causes the issue but have no clue how to find it in the source
11:33<@Rubidium>emit the nfo
11:33<MNIM>more like a visit to the shrink
11:33<Ammler>yep, that is how I know the sprite
11:33<@Rubidium>look up the sprite there, then you have a file image name
11:33<MNIM>my mind is getting all freudian-like
11:34<Ammler>planetmaker: we need target %.nfo :-)
11:35<andythenorth>Ammler: what happens if you isolate these sprites in a new test grf?
11:35<andythenorth>or swap the contents of the pngs for new contents?
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11:36<Ammler>andythenorth: I do not know, which png :-)
11:37<@Rubidium>anyhow, 3000 doesn't seem like a sensible magic number in any way to cause problems
11:37<andythenorth>you have the sprite numbers?
11:37<Ammler>Rubidium: it's 3033 or so
11:37<@Rubidium>and you have the nfo nml creates?
11:37<Ammler>yes, I am on that now
11:37<@Rubidium>which revision of opengfx?
11:37<@Rubidium>find sprite 3033
11:38<@Rubidium>of extra, right?
11:38<Ammler>sprites/png/terrain/waterfeatures/rivermouth_tropical_ne.gimp.png 241 97 01 23 64 -31 0
11:38<Ammler>hmm, not 0 0
11:40<Ammler>andythenorth: could you check that file?
11:40<@Rubidium>that's pretty out-of-bounds
11:40<Ammler>out of bounds?
11:41<@Rubidium>sprites/png/terrain/waterfeatures/rivermouth_tropical_ne.gimp.png: Error: Sprite y extends beyond end of the spritesheet.
11:41<@Rubidium>Spritesheet has 49 lines, sprite wants 97..119
11:42<@planetmaker>ho hm
11:42<@Rubidium>you understand the above output of grfcodec?
11:43<@Rubidium>so you just found two bugs ;)
11:47<Ammler>but where the hell are those errors on devzone?
11:47<Ammler>does nmlc not see it?
11:48<@Rubidium>that's the second bug ;)
11:49<Ammler>now it would be interesting, why old distro handle it differently
11:49<@planetmaker>that's then probably a python thing
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11:49<Ammler>without -c, on newer it is a blue box
11:49<Ammler>on older it is that random whatever
11:49<@planetmaker>which makes a sanity check possibly in PIL not doing an out-of-bounds reads, clamping values to the graphics size
11:50<@Rubidium>sounds like undefined behaviour
11:50<Ammler>that explains, why we had the issue also without -c
11:51<@Rubidium>IMO nmlc should check whether the rectangle it wants to get is within the bounds of the image, if not: show a warning instead of silently continueing
11:51<Ammler>planetmaker: why did it need so long until someone told me, I should make a nfo with nmlc :-P
11:52<andythenorth>unusual problem?
11:52<andythenorth>we're not used to hunting down these issues?
11:52<Ammler>well, but finding a sprite in the nml source isn't that uncommon, is it?=
11:53<@planetmaker>is it?
11:53<Ammler>and this seems a reasonable way
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11:53<Ammler>planetmaker: and you were wrong with your guess, that it is temperate :-P
11:53<@Rubidium>it's basically the obvious way
11:54<@Rubidium>which is why I assumed you already done it in the many hours of backlog ;)
11:54<bernardh>Hey, just wanted to say OpenTTD seems awesome and I have no idea why I've never heard of it before! n_n-b
11:54<Ammler>I made the nfo with grfcodec
11:54<Ammler>to find the difference on the grfs
11:55<bernardh>And that my solution to playing in fullscreen and being able to read documentation on Linux is to run it in another X display. xD
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11:56<Ammler>bernardh: and you run it in fullscreen because?
11:56<bernardh>Ammler, I like to use all of my display.
11:57<Ammler>hmm, isn't it possible to switch window when openttd is in fullscreen?
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11:58<bernardh>Ammler, maybe with a strange window manager, or a patch to X11 that prevents keyboard grab. But xinit is easier.
11:58<Ammler>well you might waste resources which you need in the game ;-)
11:59<bernardh>Heh. The default blitter was pretty slow at 1920x1080, but 32bpp-optimized seems fine. :D
12:00*andythenorth ponders
12:00<andythenorth>is it useful for a grf to list all vehicles in the docs?
12:00<andythenorth>or does that spoil the surprise?
12:01<@Rubidium>bernardh: sadly enough it's not the blitter that's slow but probably your GPU (phyisical or driver) not having hardware acceleration anymore for paletted images
12:03<bernardh>Rubidium, sad face. It's a GTS 450 with 1024 megs of VRAM with the proprietary drivers, which seems sufficient for most things. Not this, apparently. =D
12:03<bernardh>Maybe it's just the opening menu thingie.
12:03<bernardh>I didn't try a game with the default, as the mouse wasn't even moving smoothly.
12:03<@Rubidium>the newer the hardware, the worse the support for 8bpp paletted images
12:04<bernardh>Rubidium, ahhh.
12:05*bernardh googles paletted textures furiously
12:05<bernardh>I didn't even know you could do that without shaders. Nifty.
12:06<@Rubidium>it's ancient
12:06<bernardh>NES-esque. :P
12:07<bernardh>Rubidium, like I said. I'm simultaneously pleased that you can do that and disappointed that it's being phased out.
12:10<@planetmaker>18:00 andythenorth: is it useful for a grf to list all vehicles in the docs? <-- IMHO yes
12:15<andythenorth>planetmaker: txt or html with images?
12:15<@planetmaker>readme.txt, so users can also see it ingame :-)
12:15<@planetmaker>And get possibly additional info on history etc
12:15<@planetmaker>Would fit very well there
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12:22<andythenorth>planetmaker: something like this, but maybe on one line, with consistent spacing?
12:23<@planetmaker>Yes, possibly
12:23<andythenorth>code is pretty simple :)
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12:31<andythenorth>better? less info? more?
12:32<andythenorth>alignment I can fix later
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13:11<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r23917 /trunk/src/newgrf_cargo.cpp: -Fix (r11252,, r23914, r23915): Also use the CTT for refitmasks for version 6 GRFs. I.e. fix the cursed GetCargoTranslation() function for the fourth time.
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13:12<frosch123>not sure whether i counted right :p
13:13<@Rubidium>then use toomanieth time ;)
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13:16<frosch123>interestingly the bugs never mattered as the function was never called with usebit = true before r23915
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13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r23918 /trunk/src/lang/ (french.txt hungarian.txt):
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: french - 19 changes by OliTTD
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: hungarian - 4 changes by IPG
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14:17*andythenorth contemplates what run cost algorithm should be
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14:19<andythenorth>best proxy for fuel cost is HP?
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16:59*andythenorth pops up
16:59<andythenorth>seriously, 63.75t weight is not enough for RVs
16:59<andythenorth>trains have up to 1279t
16:59<andythenorth>but trains don't have to put the entire consist weight on the lead vehicle
16:59<andythenorth>"just saying" ;)
16:59*andythenorth - pops down
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17:37<FLHerne>When starting Chill's Patchpack, I get this error:
17:37<FLHerne>dbg: [misc] [squirrel] Failed to compile '/home/francis/.openttd/content_download/ai/AIAI-iota3.tar/aiai-iota3/info.nut'
17:37<FLHerne>Your script made an error: the index 'CONFIG_DEVELOPER' does not exist#
17:38<FLHerne>Would this be because of the AI being newer than the nightly that the patchpack's based off
17:39<@planetmaker>or just not announcing its compatibility properly
17:40<FLHerne>Any workarounds to that? The version of AIAI with railways looks quite good on the forums
17:41<@planetmaker>delete the AI locally
17:41<@planetmaker>but you can just ignore it, too
17:42<@planetmaker>after all it works well with other openttd versions as far as I know
17:42<FLHerne>Well, it doesn't stop TTD running, but using the AI would be nice
17:42<FLHerne>Oh well
17:43<FLHerne>I can always use a different one :D
17:43<@planetmaker>Well. It's just a message which tells you that that AI won't work with that openttd version you use
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17:50<swissfan91>what is the definitive number of snow transitions that tiles can show?
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18:47<bernardh>Hi there! I can't get the music to work (Linux, PulseAudio). I have timidity installed and running, the .gm files from the original (I also tried with OpenMSX and the Joplin anthology). I'm running with the flag -m extmidi, timidity can play all the music. I've tried running both openttd and timidity with padsp, and all the sounds work besides.
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18:50<bernardh>I'll try the generic binaries on the site, see if they behave differently.
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18:53<bernardh>Yeah, that works fine. I'll see about getting a bug filed against the Arch package.
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19:09<bernardh>Okay, now it's working everywhere. Only thing I changed was wiping out .openttd. Strange. Oh well, music! :D
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---Logclosed Thu Feb 09 00:00:26 2012