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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-02-10

---Logopened Fri Feb 10 00:00:31 2012
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02:47<andythenorth>mornint()
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03:06*andythenorth ponders
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03:12<andythenorth>truck weight = length * constant * multiplier (set on per vehicle)
03:12<andythenorth>^ bit fricking magical no?
03:12<andythenorth>bit 'fiddle magic numbers to get the result I want' ?
03:13<dihedral>if length = 1m and 1m = 100KG * multiplier
03:13<andythenorth>yup
03:13<dihedral>i shall specify a multiplier of 0 for my ufo-truck-road-flyer-thingy
03:13<andythenorth>:)
03:16*andythenorth ponders varying the weight by type of truck body
03:16<andythenorth>flat deck is lighter than refrigerated trailer
03:16<andythenorth>but meh
03:17<andythenorth>too fine grained :P
03:26<andythenorth>hmm
03:26<andythenorth>length * constant * truck type
03:26<andythenorth>will do
03:34<@planetmaker>truck weight = length * truck_specific_constant * introduction_year / base_costs
03:34<@planetmaker>or simplified to truck_weight = truck_specific_constant
03:35<@planetmaker>if you have a per-vehicle factor you can skip all calculation and set weight directly
03:35<@planetmaker>All else is just making it magically complex without adding clarity
03:35<@peter1138>separate trailers! train-like depot!
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03:38<andythenorth>planetmaker: +1 on the badness of magic
03:38<andythenorth>if I have to set magic multipliers, might as well just set weight :P
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03:44<andythenorth>"There is no problem that cannot be made worse with another layer of indirection"
03:48<@planetmaker>andythenorth: in case of doubt you want to get a guide value by a formula. And fill in the actually used weight by hand directly which includes implicitly a "magic" andy-factor wrt the table-value based on your judgement what would fit
03:48<@planetmaker>thus: use a guide. But not a formula
03:52<andythenorth>or I make it entirely derived, which I'm testing
03:52<andythenorth>but not some mix of manually set / derived
03:52<andythenorth>that would be horrible
03:53<@planetmaker>exactly :-)
03:53<andythenorth>I've mixed set / derived for run cost, I'm not sure it's wise
03:53<andythenorth>maybe I should remove that and just set run cost directly
03:54<andythenorth>but then...what is the direct value for run cost? :o
03:55<@planetmaker>the property value
03:56*andythenorth does ponder
03:59*Rhamphoryncus wonders if delayed departure due to sudden extra loading breaks timetables too
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06:01<__ln__>https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/428318_363905890304143_183457778348956_1362409_1249050976_n.jpg
06:09<andythenorth>bah
06:09*andythenorth has 100 emails to read and reply to
06:10*andythenorth likes work, but mostly when it involves making the internet
06:10<andythenorth>not when it involves email
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07:13<@peter1138>is your penis a porpoise?
07:14<andythenorth>is yours?
07:16<@peter1138>not today
07:16<MNIM>why, it is on saturdays?
07:18-!-mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-39-107.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd
07:30<Stimrol_>hello, I had my openttd server hacked yesterday. Someone came in and joined all the password protected companies and destroyed them. I thought this was not possible. How can I prevent this?
07:31<Ammler>Stimrol_: did you restart the server before?
07:32<Stimrol_>I have searched google for answer but nothing there.
07:32<Ammler>company passwords do not survive a reload
07:32<Stimrol_>No, there was a user I know logged in while this was happening and he said that all the companies where still with passwords
07:33<MNIM>...why would one hack an ottd server? :S
07:33<@peter1138>"destroyed" in what way?
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07:33<Ammler>MNIM: does not really matter, does it?
07:33<Stimrol_>Even his company was taken over and everything removed and the landscape destroyed to spend the money
07:34*MNIM blarghs at griefers everywhere
07:34<Stimrol_>mnim you do it because you can i suspect
07:34<@peter1138>autoclean can remove companies
07:34<@peter1138>and if someone knows your rcon password, they can switch companies too
07:34<MNIM>apparently.
07:34<Stimrol_>they where not removed, and I could see the changes in the landscape
07:35<@peter1138>MNIM, griefing and trolling are a popular internet pasttime
07:35<Ammler>true, maybe he knew the rcon pw
07:35<@planetmaker>still. With the rcon pw known one can move oneself to any company
07:35<Stimrol_>rcon password is blank
07:35<MNIM>in all my life, I still don't understand people who wantonly waste time just to make someone angry.
07:35<@planetmaker>it's a good password then ;-)
07:36<@planetmaker>I'd say the fault is then that no password was set for rcon
07:36<Ammler>planetmaker: no, that would be a bug
07:36<Stimrol_>don't you need another port to connect to rcon and is not rcon disabled if it has blank password?
07:36<@planetmaker>it should indeed. Not sure it is
07:36<Ammler>we don't set rcon pw on our server either
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07:37<Ammler>hehe, maybe we should check it :-)
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07:38<Stimrol_>:) yes maybe we should, I was under the impression that if it was blank it worked like ubuntu root password, nobody knows that password if it has not been set
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07:38<@planetmaker>well. Maybe you can easily check?
07:39<MNIM>uhh, how does one *not* set a root password? :S
07:39<Stimrol_>rcon pass and admin pass are blank on my server
07:39<MNIM>I mean, you can disable your root account, but you still need a root password.
07:40<Stimrol_>ubuntu users use sudo to access root, and you can also do sudo root and then need no password.
07:40<Stimrol_>except your own password
07:41<Stimrol_>maybe I am doing mistake to have admin_password and rcon_password blank
07:41<Stimrol_>nick Stimrol
07:41-!-Stimrol_ is now known as Stimrol
07:41<Stimrol>:)
07:42<andythenorth>this is possibly interesting http://vimeo.com/9270320
07:42<Ammler>Stimrol: we can at least confirm that empty pw still does disable rcon
07:43<Stimrol>thanks, I thought so but never checked :)
07:44<Sacro>MNIM: you put in an invalid hash in /etc/shadow
07:44<Ammler>Stimrol: can't you ask the "Hacker" how he did it?
07:44<Stimrol>My friend who was on the server said this user came in and knew what he was doing, he joined the companies removed everything they built and changed the landscape a lot to finish their money
07:44<MNIM>isn't that much like building a burglary proof house and then encasing the door in molten steel? :S
07:45<@peter1138>probably the companies weren't password protected. most likely explanation
07:46<Ammler>and your friend simply wasn't aware of
07:46<Stimrol>I would like to :), but one problem there is no log (i have not found any) and what happened had cleared my screen (was not in the buffer any more)
07:46<Ammler>do not trust him ;-)
07:46<@peter1138>aware of what?
07:46<Ammler>that the companies aren't passworded
07:46<@planetmaker>then my best bet is ^^
07:47<@peter1138>you should learn to finish your sentences, ammler :p
07:47<Stimrol>that is a slight possibility that he was wrong about that, but I dopt it because it was like four companies all destroyed
07:47<Ammler>well, I was continuing yours :-P
07:47<Stimrol>hehe
07:47<@planetmaker>your best protection is a) having an admin around or responding to admin requests and b) logging at least who joined
07:47<@planetmaker>and banning the IPs, if needed
07:48<Stimrol>is there a way to have a log that logs who comes in and so, openttd --help does not show me that option
07:48<Ammler>we piple console output to a file
07:49<@planetmaker>./openttd -D | tee -a game.log
07:50<@peter1138>when did he check the companies were passworded?
07:50<@peter1138>the attacker could easily just have set one
07:52<Stimrol>most likly they where with passwords because it was like 1960 and I start the server 1900 and I had not resetted the map
07:52<Stimrol>when I came and saw this, then the users where trying to rebuild their companies, so no passwords where changed
07:53<@planetmaker>oh, if you're inside a company you don't notice a PW change
07:53<Stimrol>Yes now I am sure they had password, because I remember joining one with pass
07:53<@planetmaker>and companies only have PWs set, if the users have PWs
07:54<Stimrol>there was only one loged in while this happened, so another user logged in afterward and his pass had not been changed
07:57<Stimrol>but thanks people, maybe I will sometime find out how this was done and how to prevent it
08:05<Ammler>don't forget to bugreport
08:09<Stimrol>yes, if I find something
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09:09<@Belugas>hello
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09:25<andythenorth>lo Belugas sir
09:25<andythenorth>is sir French?
09:26<@Belugas>good question
09:26<@Belugas>hello to you too, andythenorth
09:26<@Belugas>i think so
09:27<@Belugas>sir, been french..
09:27<andythenorth>hrm
09:27<@Belugas>just that t's extremely rare that you call someone "sir" in french :)
09:27<andythenorth>sir = monsieur
09:27*andythenorth remembers french :P
09:27<andythenorth>monsieur Belugas !
09:27*andythenorth back to work
09:28<andythenorth>filling out security audits
09:28<andythenorth>such larks
09:28<@Belugas>well, if you are talking to me, please upper case the M of Monsieur. I'm not just anybody, me!
09:28<@Belugas>hem...
09:28<@Belugas>joking...
09:29<andythenorth>do you have a backup generator? How much fuel does it hold?
09:30<andythenorth>how often is it refuelled?
09:30<andythenorth>hrrm
09:30<@planetmaker>hello BELUGAS!
09:30<@planetmaker>(enough caps :-P ? )
09:30<andythenorth>MOAR CAPS
09:30<@planetmaker>how often is the fuel for the caps lock key refueled?
09:31<andythenorth>often
09:32<andythenorth>"please state the frequency"
09:32<andythenorth>grr
09:33<andythenorth>"we do not own the co-lo, we have a contract with 99.9% uptime guarantee and guaranteeing physical security"
09:33<andythenorth>why can't I just put that? :P
09:33*andythenorth is example of legalistic, blame passing culture :P
09:33<@Belugas>Mister planetmaker, ya salute ya!
09:36*andythenorth wonders if he can spend rest of day converting FISH to pynml
09:36<andythenorth>what would the boss say?
09:37<@Belugas>as long as he doe snot see what you're doing, nothing!
09:38<andythenorth>he watches me all day
09:38<andythenorth>all the time I am awake, he can see me
09:38<@planetmaker>is he sitting in your chair?
09:38<andythenorth>if I'm sitting there, he is sitting there :(
09:38<andythenorth>anyone else work for themselves?
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09:44<@Belugas>not me, for sure!
09:45<@Belugas>that's one of the [problems I had devving from work. Pascal and C++ do not have excatly the same "shape", so it's quite easy you're not doing work@work...
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12:01*andythenorth ponders
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13:39<frosch123>what? was the forum offline all day? why is there no new posts in suggestions or problems forum?
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13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r23921 /trunk/src/lang/ (english_AU.txt estonian.txt french.txt latvian.txt):
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: english_AU - 5 changes by tomas4g
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: estonian - 55 changes by Jaanus
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: french - 13 changes by OliTTD
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: latvian - 1 changes by Parastais
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14:00<@Alberth>all questions were clear to all :p
14:05<@Terkhen>hello
14:05<@Alberth>hello Terkhen
14:09<andythenorth>frosch123: maybe the world ended, but we didn't notice?
14:09-!-HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6A6F3.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
14:09<andythenorth>also...no replies to my python+nml thread :o
14:09<andythenorth>definitely, the world ended
14:09<@Alberth>perhaps the internet died
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14:11*Alberth makes some tea
14:12<frosch123>evening fellow zombies .)
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14:16*andythenorth wonders if he should code BROS
14:16<andythenorth>possibly that would lead to bad comments
14:16<andythenorth>mostly by me
14:17<supermop>do it before anyone has a chance to say anything
14:22<@Terkhen>andythenorth: code the spain set :)
14:23<Ammler>spain set has 32bpp sprites too :-)
14:26<andythenorth>Terkhen: is no-one coding the spain set already?
14:27<@Terkhen>maquinista is coding it, but busy with RL IIRC
14:27<@Terkhen>so I'll have to be patient :P
14:28<andythenorth>is it nml or nfo?
14:28<@Alberth>or find more coders ;)
14:28<@Terkhen>decompiled nfo :D
14:28<@Terkhen>with no repo
14:29<supermop>give me a week more drawing and you can code a monorail set for me
14:29<andythenorth>Terkhen: convert it to nml
14:30<@Terkhen>I'll wait a few more months
14:30<@Terkhen>it's not like I can play now anyways
14:31<andythenorth>bah
14:31<andythenorth>how do I compile with nml?
14:31<andythenorth>pure nmlc, no makefile
14:31<@Alberth>nmlc foo.nml
14:32<andythenorth>tada
14:32<andythenorth>so no switches needed :P
14:32<@Alberth>you can see the options by using nmlc -h, but it does not have many
14:33*andythenorth was overcomplicating it
14:34<@Alberth>you forgot the --i-need-more-options option?
14:35<andythenorth>--null :P
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14:53<andythenorth>bye bye Guest2167
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15:46<Wolf01>hello
15:48<@Terkhen>hi Wolf01
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18:03<@Terkhen>good night
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18:21<frosch123>night
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18:45<Wolf01>'night
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19:20<Rhamphoryncus>Hah, I found a use for near/middle/far loading positions. Conditional orders. The train just needs to move slightly before it'll consider stopping again. Just make sure the station is a tile longer than the train and you can have it do load-if-available at the near, check the load count, move to the far, unload the partial load, and be off.
19:21<Rhamphoryncus>You can do near/middle/far (but I can't see a use for it). I even got 2 stops to work (but not 3) when the depot said it was a 4.0 tile train in a 4 tile platform, but the newgrf was very slightly smaller than that
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19:43<Rhamphoryncus>Thought of a use for having all 3: first is ordinary load with no wait. Second is an ordinary load but with a wait time. Third is full load or transfer
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20:36<Nat_as>I have a question, When making a scenerio, how do you turn desert back into grass?
20:36<Nat_as>is it perminant?
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21:07<Rhamphoryncus>Nat_as: secret tooltip is secret
21:07<Rhamphoryncus>("Define desert area. Hold Ctrl to remove it")
21:16<Nat_as>it also seems to unflood areas
21:18<Rhamphoryncus>I noticed that
21:18<Rhamphoryncus>Demolishing works for that too
21:19<Rhamphoryncus>And.. if you select the canal button (not river?!) and hold ctrl you can put down ocean
21:25<Nat_as>cool
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21:52<Nat_as>ugh, even when you can turn deserts into jungle, you still get maps that are mostly flat jungle
21:58<Rhamphoryncus>hmm? Are you talking about the map gen settings?
21:59<Nat_as>yeah, I can't seem to get a setting that is anything but mostly desert
21:59<Nat_as>even though I set mountains,
21:59<Nat_as>I'm trying to make a jungle, and all I get is deserts, so I might as well be working by hand.
21:59<Nat_as>it's frustrating.
22:00<Rhamphoryncus>turn variety distribution to none
22:01<Nat_as>oh here we go
22:01<Nat_as>thinks
22:01<Rhamphoryncus>Unfortunately it's a case of the new stuff being worse than the old stuff :/
22:01<Nat_as>would be cool if there was an terrain generator that takes into account erosion and rain shadows like in DF
22:02<Nat_as>well rain shadows would only matter in tropical maps
22:02<Rhamphoryncus>Heh, the "wouldn't it be cool" list for openttd is endless
22:02<Nat_as>is there a "unified biome" on that list?
22:02<Rhamphoryncus>The one in my head, yes
22:02<Nat_as>one map with all terrain types merging into each other?
22:03<Rhamphoryncus>I just need to be appointed Supreme Dictator and it'll happen *g*
22:03*Nat_as votes for Rhamphoryncus
22:04<Rhamphoryncus>Heh. Now go run a campaign for me so other people vote as well ;)
22:04<Nat_as>dosn't simutrans have that?
22:04<Rhamphoryncus>no clue
22:05<Rhamphoryncus>But it makes a good point: openttd's greatest strength (and greatest weakness) is its history
22:06<Nat_as>yes I have said this often.
22:07<Nat_as>Simutrans is ugly and has a weak interface because it is a new game made by people who are not artists or designers, However it has all sorts of advanced features because it's easy to add shit too it.
22:07<Nat_as>SImutrans is nice looking and has an intuitive UI because it is 18 years old. But is also tied down to legacy code and makes adding new features difficult.
22:08<Rhamphoryncus>s/simutrans/openttd/
22:08<Nat_as>UGH yeah I derped
22:08<Nat_as>Anyways, I will however say that New art for OTTD is almost universaly better than new art for simutrans
22:08<Rhamphoryncus>It had an intuitive UI 18 years ago. Many of the new features are not intuitive
22:08<Nat_as>and I have no idea why
22:09<Nat_as>also some graphical features of OTTD blow simutrans out of the water
22:09<Nat_as>like how passinger trains can change the sprite of there cars.
22:09<Nat_as>in some newgrifs
22:09<Nat_as>and how some cargo cars are randomized
22:09<Nat_as>that looks really awesome and you can't do that in simutrans
22:09<Nat_as>(at least when I worked on it)
22:09<Rhamphoryncus>Unfortunately a lot of the new art for for openttd is in a different style. Looking at a city set right now :/
22:10<Rhamphoryncus>Yeah, that is an awesome feature
22:10<Rhamphoryncus>Specialized stations and ones that display waiting cargo
22:11<Nat_as>I tired making a doublestack train for Simutrans, but there is only two states for cars, loaded and emptey
22:11<Nat_as>I could not make half full cars, or cars with randomized containers
22:11<Nat_as>I just made them company color
22:11<Nat_as>which is unrealistic and boring looking.
22:11<Rhamphoryncus>Yeah, but all this could be done way better in openttd too
22:13<Rhamphoryncus>Colouring is very inconsistent
22:13<Nat_as>show me the city art Rhamphoryncus
22:13<Nat_as>it can't be as bad as Simutrans 128 set
22:13<Nat_as>a horrific waste of pixels if i ever saw one myself
22:13<Rhamphoryncus>some sets let you pick between colour schemes, or maybe they support the secondary colour too, but not always
22:14<Nat_as>I would like to see a consistant pack for simutrans
22:14<Nat_as>with a list of trains that is balanced and good looking
22:14<Nat_as>2cc trains looks good, but it has more than I need probably and requires the new tracks
22:15<Nat_as>which is way to complex
22:15<Rhamphoryncus>I have a ton of stuff installed and I don't know which one does it :/
22:15<Nat_as>in simutrans the graphics are made by programers and in OTTD they are made by raill nerds.
22:16<Rhamphoryncus>yeah, massive balance issues I've found
22:16<Nat_as>historicaly accurate trains are nice, but I always imagine my game as like a fantasy world with it's own trains
22:16<Nat_as>I'd rather have generic trains that work from a gameplay perspective than accurate trains
22:16<Nat_as>also, why are some cars bigger or smaller?
22:16<Nat_as>cars should be .5 square increments
22:17<Rhamphoryncus>And for some reason nearly all the good engines are PAX only (in the newgrfs), but most that you build are for freight
22:17<Nat_as>some engines might be more than one car long, but it should always be multiples of .5
22:17<Rhamphoryncus>I like the variety actually
22:17<Rhamphoryncus>Refitting is annoying of course, but I blame that on the refit interface, not the cars
22:17<Nat_as>there is a difference between variety and spending hours trying to find the right train
22:17<Nat_as>and ending up only using 2 of them.
22:18<Nat_as>oh yeah, it would be cool if you could have cars (and planes actualy) hold more than one cargo at once
22:18<Nat_as>like i use the AV8 C130 to haul livestock/grain one way, and food/goods the other
22:19<Nat_as>I need 2 airplanes constantly refitting themselves each time.
22:19<Rhamphoryncus>Yeah, that is annoying
22:19<Nat_as>the best way to get cargo air to be profitable is have them carry cargo both ways, but that can be hard to arrange.
22:19<Rhamphoryncus>Refit should be free in some cases, with what you load based on the order, not what the vehicle is refitted too
22:20<Nat_as>for cargo aircraft it should not even be nessary
22:20<Nat_as>Airplanes are suposed to be flexible but expensive.
22:20<Nat_as>that's the tradeoff.
22:20<Nat_as>they can move anything anywhere, but it wont always be worth it.
22:21<Rhamphoryncus>Well, if you could specify in the load order what to pick up then you could have generic capacities and more specific ones
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22:22<Nat_as>all cargo should be measured in tons rather than units
22:22<Nat_as>for easy-ness
22:22<Rhamphoryncus>PAX+mail, pure mail, or goods could be 3 different sets. The goods could allow oil at reduced capacity (bladders) or be refit to only oil at slightly higher capacity
22:22<Nat_as>well mail would be units
22:22<Nat_as>Mail and passengers ought to use a diffrent handling system than cargo.
22:23<Rhamphoryncus>If it was listed better it wouldn't matter. As it is when you buy it only lists the default and you have to buy and refit to know the real value.
22:23<Nat_as>yeah, generalized vs specialised.
22:23<Nat_as>like maybe container cargo could include goods, and anything else
22:24<Nat_as>anything that can carry goods, can also carry anything else at a reduced rate.
22:24<Rhamphoryncus>yeah
22:24<Nat_as>bottles of oil, cages of livestock, bins of grain.
22:25<Nat_as>IIRC simutrans actualy has container goods, liquid goods, and long goods.
22:25<Nat_as>and I think one for coal and ore
22:25<Rhamphoryncus>But that can be a component of the refit options. Rather than choices of [pax+mail, mail, goods, oil] it's [pax+mail, [mail, goods, oil], oil]
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22:25<Nat_as>one thing that is strange is the way they hack repainting vhechiles into refit.
22:26<Nat_as>blach cant spell
22:26<Belsyny>hi, can anyone teach me how to create a multiplayer game step by step
22:26<Belsyny>my friend and I want to play it through internet
22:26<Nat_as>damn gotta go walk the dog, back in a bit.
22:27<Rhamphoryncus>btw, I think the reason the town art style doesn't match is the game is still only 8-bit. They don't have the colours they need
22:27<Belsyny>but we seem not able to see the server name on our list whenever either one of us create a new game
22:27<Nat_as>can I see the town art style?
22:27<Rhamphoryncus>Nat_as: I haven't found a pic
22:27<Nat_as>because simutrans' art problem is that they trace 3d models and ariel photography instead of getting actual artists to do it.
22:28<Nat_as>silly programers
22:28<Rhamphoryncus>Belsyny: Do you have it set to advertise?
22:29-!-Belsyny [3c357865@ircip1.mibbit.com] has quit []
22:29<Rhamphoryncus>Belsyny: Although connectingly directly to your IP is probably a little bet.. nevermind
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22:49<supermop>does kamnet ever visit this channel?
22:56<Rhamphoryncus>Nat_as: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=40234
22:57<Nat_as>That's not that bad
22:57<Nat_as>it's nice pixel art, the pallet is just offensive.
22:57<Nat_as>which yeah, is a hard limitation.
22:57<Rhamphoryncus>yeah
22:57<Rhamphoryncus>I do think it's possible to do better within the palette. It involves a lot of manual dithering to look like there's extra detail
22:58<Nat_as>yes
22:58<Rhamphoryncus>And mixing in some traditional colours
22:58<Nat_as>as long as you follow a consistant set of rules.
22:59<Nat_as>and don't try to scan ariel photos.
23:01<Rhamphoryncus>Well not me. I'd do MUCH worse ;)
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23:32<Nat_as>how many trains are nessary in a good set?
23:32<Nat_as>at a time, not counting when trains expire.
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23:35<Nat_as>what are the important niches?
23:38<Rhamphoryncus>Hard to say. All my past experience has been with just 1
23:39<Nat_as>I try lots of diffrent sets
23:39<Rhamphoryncus>It is nice to have regular improvements, so if your set went from 1900 to 2100 and that was every 10 years.. do the math ;)
23:39<Nat_as>i mean how many at a time
23:40<Nat_as>because you can't use all the trains at once
23:40<Rhamphoryncus>The problem is the game discourages diversity
23:40<Nat_as>yes
23:40<Rhamphoryncus>Networks flow better when identical
23:40<Nat_as>but niches exist
23:40<Nat_as>fast trains for passingers, powerfull trains for cargo
23:40<Nat_as>some trains need to be big, others small
23:40<Nat_as>and also Metros are an intresting idea
23:40<Nat_as>trains that load faster but are slow
23:41<Rhamphoryncus>passenger service needs timetabling, which is currently pointless
23:41<Nat_as>really handy in cities.
23:41<Nat_as>well Metro trains exist, and are cool.
23:41<Nat_as>also passingers pay less if you take too long
23:41<Rhamphoryncus>Trains don't "need" to be big or small. Works better if they're all the same
23:42<Nat_as>what if you need to move more or less cargo?
23:42<Nat_as>making trains too big means you waste maintenance money and horse power.
23:42<Rhamphoryncus>The station rating mechanics require you to have a train waiting continuously, but a full load order in a city will only work at one end
23:42<Nat_as>oh
23:43<Rhamphoryncus>Use full load. Add more trains as needed.
23:43<Nat_as>what is the ideal train lenght?
23:43<Nat_as>I have played with 4 6 and even 8+
23:43<Nat_as>(in the last case I could not add more platforms so I just extended them)
23:44<Rhamphoryncus>Longer fits more into the track space (proportionately less gaps), but needs very large turns. Short can do tight turns
23:44<Nat_as>also short is easier to fit into cities.
23:44<Rhamphoryncus>But keep the multiple-engine feature in mind. 1 engine+5 wagons accelerates the same as 3 engines+15 wagons
23:45<Nat_as>yes
23:45<Nat_as>some sets however have metro style trains where every car gives power, and load faster than normal
23:45<Nat_as>but are slower to make up
23:46<Nat_as>really handy for moving passengers inside a city.
23:46<Nat_as>or between two close cities.
23:47<Rhamphoryncus>That's a lot more realistic. That's how maglevs should be
23:47<Nat_as>well magleves are fast
23:47<Rhamphoryncus>The real maglevs have propulsion in every wagon
23:48<Nat_as>yeah
23:48<Nat_as>I was talking more about the loading speeds feature though
23:48<Rhamphoryncus>You said slower to make up? You mean to build?
23:48<Nat_as>slower to move
23:48<Rhamphoryncus>ahhh
23:48<Nat_as>low max speed
23:48<Rhamphoryncus>Try the vacuum tube newgrf. It's fun ;)
23:49<Nat_as>how does it work>
23:49<Rhamphoryncus>It's a maglev in a vacuum tube
23:50<Rhamphoryncus>No air resistance
23:50<Nat_as>that's it?
23:50<Nat_as>oh, just a maglev with crazy max speed?
23:50<Rhamphoryncus>and acceleration
23:50<Rhamphoryncus>Although the acceleration is silly IMO
23:50<Nat_as>I thought it was pneumatic subway.
23:50<Rhamphoryncus>no heh
23:51<Rhamphoryncus>They do 3000 or 4000 km/h
23:51<Nat_as>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beach_Pneumatic_Transit
23:51<Nat_as>this existed
23:52<Rhamphoryncus>Interesting
23:52<Rhamphoryncus>But not terribly effective
23:52<Nat_as>yeah
23:53<Nat_as>it's silly
23:57<Nat_as>the way the default maglev tracks look, it looks more like quantum levitation than actual maglev.
23:59<Nat_as>http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/10/quantum-levitation/
---Logclosed Sat Feb 11 00:00:30 2012