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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-02-12

---Logopened Sun Feb 12 00:00:43 2012
00:00<TheStick>...any possibility I could get a pinch of assistance...?
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00:01<supermop>hmm
00:02<TheStick>(Running a CRUX distro, btw.)
00:02<supermop>i dont know anything about it, but i'd suggest posting in the forum, and waiting until morning
00:02<supermop>or seeing if someone has written something about it in the development subforum
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00:03<TheStick>...but, then... if it's a syntax error thing, then wouldn't that be a bug...?
00:03<supermop>um
00:03<supermop>i actually dont know really any programming so i am nut sure
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00:35<Rhamphoryncus>TheStick: methinks you'd be better off installing a different distro
00:35<TheStick>:s
00:35<TheStick>Is there anything that can run console-only...?
00:36<Rhamphoryncus>Lots?
00:36<Rhamphoryncus>There's swaths of linux servers quietly powering the world
00:36<Rhamphoryncus>And probably ever major distro has a server version
00:37<TheStick>...course, I picked CRUX since it (supposedly) has a small memroy footprint, leaving more for Minecraft...
00:37<Arafangion>Ha.
00:37<TheStick>I've only got 0.75 MiB to work with...;
00:37<TheStick>Old box.
00:38<Arafangion>TheStick: You're not getting linux on that, then.
00:38<Rhamphoryncus>of ram? Not even a meg?
00:38<Rhamphoryncus>Well you CAN, but it won't be any easy, major distro
00:38<TheStick>>.<
00:38<TheStick>0.75 Gib.
00:38<TheStick>*GiB
00:38<Arafangion>Rhamphoryncus: Not sure you could, even, with tomsrtbt.
00:38<Rhamphoryncus>that's not so bad
00:38<TheStick>Screwed that one up.
00:40<Rhamphoryncus>tomsrtbt is designed for small disks, not small ram
00:41<Arafangion>Rhamphoryncus: Even so, it's a 2.0.x kernel.
00:41<Rhamphoryncus>It's old
00:41<Arafangion>Rhamphoryncus: And the whole kernel has to be put into RAM.
00:42<Rhamphoryncus>TheStick: Either way I know debian or ubuntu server versions would run in that
00:42<Rhamphoryncus>I'd be far more concerned about openttd itself than linux
00:42<TheStick>...right...
00:43<Rhamphoryncus>Not having X, gnome/kde, a graphical browser, or any of that makes a HUGE difference
00:43<TheStick>...anyways, I found a syntax error with the Makefile...;
00:46<Rhamphoryncus>this article claims linux needs around 2 MB: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECos
00:46<TheStick>...and around how much would OpenTTD want...?
00:47<Arafangion>TheStick: Considerably more. :)
00:47<Arafangion>Also, linux needs more than 2MB as well.
00:48<TheStick>What I mean is...
00:48<TheStick>...would I be able to run OpenTTD with 0.75 GiB of RAM?
00:48<Arafangion>Sure.
00:49<Arafangion>Referring to RAM as "0.75 GiB of RAM" is an exceededly odd way of saying it, mind you.
00:49<TheStick>...
00:49<TheStick>Just trying to be specific...;
00:52<Arafangion>TheStick: Do keep in mind that measuring RAM precisely is more involved than you realise.
00:52<TheStick>... :/
00:52*Arafangion heads off!
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02:43<Rhamphoryncus>Hmm, I think I've put together a robust timetabling algorithm. Anybody interested in the details?
02:52<andythenorth>moin
02:55<Rhamphoryncus>ahoy
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04:20<@Alberth>hi hi
04:21<Rhamphoryncus>Ahoy
04:21<andythenorth>moin Alberth
04:21<Rhamphoryncus>Can anybody give me some quick pointers on how to save/load a byte array? Technically I could get away with 2 or 3 bits for each value
04:23<Rhamphoryncus>Hmm, SL_ARR looks promising
04:23<TinoDidriksen>Then you can define that you're using 3 per value and just write that out.
04:24<TinoDidriksen>But it's a lot of code to pack the bits. Much easier to just dump a byte array to a stream.
04:25<Rhamphoryncus>Yeah, perfectly easy for me to treat it as nibbles
04:25<Rhamphoryncus>Or.. a uint32 array and 3-bits 10 times
04:26<TinoDidriksen>That's going to be some fiddling code to work with...
04:27<TinoDidriksen>I'd go with nibbles if space is that needed.
04:27<Rhamphoryncus>Nah, I'll just throw together a macro to do bitshifting for get/set
04:27<TinoDidriksen>Macro, ew... inline template, ftw.
04:28<Rhamphoryncus>heh. Not that proficient in C++
04:28<andythenorth>what's wrong with macros? :)
04:29<andythenorth>genuine question
04:29<Rhamphoryncus>A C macro is purely a textual substition
04:29<Rhamphoryncus>substitution*
04:29<TinoDidriksen>They're unsafe. inline templates are type checked at compile time; macros can be abused.
04:29<Rhamphoryncus>So you can have something like this: #define FOO &#(*#}J{ #*$#(
04:30<TinoDidriksen>Same reason you should prefer const globals instead of #define constants.
04:30<andythenorth>k
04:30<Rhamphoryncus>constants aren't nearly as bad.. but I can still see a const global being better
04:39<@Terkhen>good morning
04:39<andythenorth>hola Terkhen
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04:42<Rhamphoryncus>TinoDidriksen: so.. could you actually give me a hint?
04:43<TinoDidriksen>Sounded like you had it under control in your own way...
04:43<Rhamphoryncus>I'm using grep and browsing, trying to learn saveload
04:44<Rhamphoryncus>I'm sure it does arrays, I've even found one or two mentions, but I haven't found an example yet
04:46<@Terkhen>Rhamphoryncus: I suggest checking trunk revisions that made changes to saveload to get an idea of how it works
04:46<Rhamphoryncus>hrm
04:46<@Terkhen>it is a bit confusing :)
04:47<Rhamphoryncus>That's an understatement
04:51<@Terkhen>I understood it briefly while creating the persistent storage pool codechanges, now I barely remember it :P
04:51*Rhamphoryncus finds openttd.svg and finds out that it contains.. vectorized pixel art.
04:57<andythenorth>:)
05:01*andythenorth wonders if nmlc -> nfo -> grfcodec -> grf is faster than nmlc -> grf ?
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05:03<Rhamphoryncus>Hmm.. SlArray.. Load_ORDL, Save_ORDL. More promising stuff.
05:05<@Terkhen>andythenorth: probably not
05:06<@Rubidium>Terkhen: it actually might be
05:06<@Rubidium>nml tries both compression formats, grfcodec only the specified one
05:07<@Terkhen>oh, I see
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05:09*andythenorth wonders how to test
05:09<@Terkhen>time make
05:11<Rhamphoryncus>what does SLE stand for? Save load encoding? Save load entry?
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05:15<@Alberth>and do that several times, to eliminate disk caching effects
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05:15<@Rubidium>or use a ramdisk and disable swap
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05:19<andythenorth>meh
05:19<andythenorth>grfcodec will barf on my directory structure :|
05:19*andythenorth temporarily hacks that
05:20<@Alberth>always nice, programs that enforce a particular directory structure :p
05:21<@Terkhen>:)
05:22<andythenorth>woah
05:22<andythenorth>ok, averages, rounding down because it's not that significant:
05:23<andythenorth>nmlc -> grf: 13s
05:23<andythenorth>nmlc -> nfo: 4s
05:23<andythenorth>grfcodec -> grf: 0.3s (oops, can't round that down) :O
05:24*andythenorth wonders how to edit makefile to change this :)
05:24<andythenorth>silly old grfcodec wants my nfo in sprites/
05:24<andythenorth>but that's not tragic
05:25*andythenorth still hasn't figured out makefile editing yet
05:25<andythenorth>and I'm not replacing it with python - makefile has three years work and all those targets and edge cases taken care of...
05:26*andythenorth ponders shell script
05:26<andythenorth>ho
05:26<andythenorth>maybe I just tell the makefile it's an nfo project :)
05:27<@Terkhen>yeah, that should work
05:27<@Terkhen>s/should/might/
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05:32<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23932 /trunk/ (17 files in 7 dirs): -Codechange: split the NewGRF text window into its own source files
05:34<andythenorth>hmm
05:34<andythenorth>bash alias works for me
05:34<andythenorth>alias makebandit='nmlc bandit.nml --nfo=sprites/bandit.nfo && grfcodec -e bandit.grf && mv bandit.grf /Users/andy/Documents/OpenTTD/data'
05:34<andythenorth>leave the makefile alone
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05:35<andythenorth>don't break what I can't fix :)
05:35<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23933 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt newgrf_gui.cpp): -Codechange: make the text file window strings more generic (LordAro)
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05:36<@Alberth>andythenorth: I often put such sequences in a real script file, less likely to get lost :)
05:36*andythenorth never read the manual on how to do that
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05:38<@Alberth>andythenorth: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1098/
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05:41<@Alberth>put that in a file (makebandit or so), chmod u+x makebandit and run it with ./makebandit
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05:42<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23934 /trunk/src/lang/ (43 files in 2 dirs): -Update: other language files w.r.t. the previous change
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05:46<andythenorth>Alberth: thanks
05:47<andythenorth>5s, not 13s
05:47<andythenorth>8s less frustration :)
05:51<@Alberth>you're working around the natural barrier which is designed to keep newgrfs small :p
05:51<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23935 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_config.cpp textfile_gui.cpp textfile_gui.h): -Codechange: generalise GetTextfile
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05:54<Zuu>In one network timeout string the computer of a user is blamed that it takes too long to join. In another the user is blamed because he/she took too long to download the map. I can understand that we blame a user to be too slow to type the password, but shouldn't his/her computer be blamed for slow download speed rather than the user him/herself?
05:54<Zuu>STR_NETWORK_ERROR_TIMEOUT_MAP <-- string that could be changed from user to computer.
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05:56<Rhamphoryncus>Zuu: I agree. I'd go with "Client took too long to download the map"
05:58<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23936 /trunk/src/ (7 files in 6 dirs): -Feature [FS#5047]: readme/licence/changelog viewer for AI and game scripts (LordAro)
06:00<Zuu>Nice
06:00<@Rubidium>Zuu: http://rbijker.net/openttd/zuu.diff ?
06:01<Zuu>Yep that is what I had in mind.
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06:02<Zuu>You could of course starting to say that his ISP is to slow etc. but that is taking things too far as the slowness of download can't easily be told what the cause is.
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06:07<Wolf01>hello
06:10<andythenorth>Alberth: CETS compile time is ~4 mins :D
06:11<@Alberth>good for making some coffee :)
06:11<@Alberth>hello W01
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06:20<@Rubidium>with grf container version 2 you might do some tricks to prevent nml from re-encoding the graphics each time. Then it might become significantly faster, although dep checking will be a nightmare
06:21<andythenorth>dep checks seem to be a headache
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06:28<andythenorth>anyone ever written procedural graphics generator?
06:28*andythenorth is reluctant to draw
06:28<andythenorth>anyone / anyone here /s
06:29<@Alberth>all renderer programs?
06:30<andythenorth>this would be pure 2d bitmap composition
06:30<andythenorth>x,y,z
06:30<Rhamphoryncus>andythenorth: I can't help but think that's a bad idea
06:30<andythenorth>with alpha / mask / genlock support
06:30<andythenorth>drawing is boring
06:30<andythenorth>writing code is interesting
06:31<Rhamphoryncus>True
06:31<Rhamphoryncus>But you're not going to end up with much variety doing that
06:31<andythenorth>if I draw truck components, does anyone want to lay them out according to simple rules?
06:31*andythenorth considers amazon mechanical turk
06:31<Rhamphoryncus>You'll be like the face configurator thing
06:32<andythenorth>trucks are pretty vanilla
06:32<andythenorth>http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=153701
06:33<Rhamphoryncus>Mix-and-match trailers I could see
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06:34<Rhamphoryncus>How many distinct cabs do you actually see on there?
06:34<andythenorth>there are 4 or so
06:35<andythenorth>the actual graphics will need maybe 12 distinct cab styles
06:35<andythenorth>they're on a standard grid of 4px units
06:36<andythenorth>so composing them would be possible - in theory
06:36<Rhamphoryncus>Ignoring the wheels then yeah, it's 4
06:36<andythenorth>wheels can be comped on top
06:36<Rhamphoryncus>You'd honestly spend more time programming than you would doing it in gimp
06:36<Rhamphoryncus>and you'd get a better result in gimp
06:37<andythenorth>the sad time comes when I improve a truck cab
06:37<andythenorth>then have to copy it into n photoshop files
06:37<andythenorth>maintaining graphics is a PITA
06:38<andythenorth>I could actually do this with Adobe's Flash IDE
06:38<andythenorth>which supports symbols that can be comped
06:38<andythenorth>and easy procedural positioning of sprites
06:38<andythenorth>and png output
06:38<Rhamphoryncus>hrm
06:38<andythenorth>but the flash IDE sucks
06:38<andythenorth>that's my old life
06:38<andythenorth>hmm
06:38<andythenorth>After Effects can do comps of symbols too
06:39<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23937 /trunk/src/lang/english.txt: -Change: improve the wording of some of the timeout related "error" messages
06:41<andythenorth>ho
06:41<andythenorth>photoshop smart objects
06:42<andythenorth>instances of symbols
06:51<andythenorth>meh
06:51<andythenorth>that's not very future proof
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07:39*andythenorth figures out a better way to handle calculating run cost etc
07:40<andythenorth>if no value is set, calculate the value
07:40<andythenorth>if a value is set, use the value
07:40<andythenorth>no magic happens to a value that is manually set
07:40<andythenorth>hence magic xOR no-magic
07:40<andythenorth>sanity prevails
07:40<Rhamphoryncus>Sanity is a rare commodity ;)
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09:12<andythenorth>defining a function that's only called once per class...
09:12<andythenorth>...seems tidy, but actually makes for worse code?
09:13<andythenorth>more pointless indirection, harder to read
09:13<andythenorth>??
09:14<Rhamphoryncus>not necessarily
09:14<Zuu>If you can abstract away some code by puting it in a function with a good descriptive name, the code that calls the function could become easier to read.
09:14<Rhamphoryncus>It's a question of abstraction
09:14<andythenorth>I'll paste
09:14<Rhamphoryncus>Potentially MUCH easier to read
09:15<andythenorth>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1099/
09:15<andythenorth>l40 - 45
09:15<andythenorth>could be set_graphics_file
09:15<andythenorth>similar to modify_capacities_fifth_wheel_trucks
09:15<andythenorth>seems over-engineered to use functions for these though
09:16<andythenorth>even though I personally find it much easier to read
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09:16<Rhamphoryncus>yeah.. it's only a small dent but I think I'd do it too
09:16<Zuu>140? the paste doesn't contain that many lines.
09:16<andythenorth>l 40
09:16<Zuu>oh
09:17<andythenorth>when setting props, I don't really want to read "if foo, blah, else: other blah"
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09:17<andythenorth>I hate if-else blocks in the middle of otherwise simple code
09:17<Zuu>Sounds like you have good arguments for defining a function.
09:18<andythenorth>except....violates the 'do it once, do it long hand'
09:18<andythenorth>'do it twice, write a function'
09:18<andythenorth>meh
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09:35*andythenorth did the functions anyway :)
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09:39<Rhamphoryncus>:)
09:40<Rhamphoryncus>what's this "do it once, do it long hand" you speak of?
09:40<Rhamphoryncus>IMO, it's a myth. Functions are NOT to prevent duplicate code. They're to provide abstraction
09:40<Rhamphoryncus>goto is to prevent duplicate code ;)
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09:45<@Rubidium>abstractions prevent duplicate code
09:46<Rhamphoryncus>Abstractions can reduce code size. Duplicate code is a consequence, not a cause
09:47<andythenorth>functions move your code away
09:47<andythenorth>that can be bad when you're trying to figure out 'wtf?'
09:47<andythenorth>function in another file calling another function in another file is a PITA
09:47<Rhamphoryncus>Can be. Abstraction isn't a silver bullet
09:47<andythenorth>lots of project-grep = dull
09:48<andythenorth>ideally all the code you need *right now* fits in the viewport
09:48<Rhamphoryncus>I agree
09:48<andythenorth>if it doesn't fit in the viewport, reduce the scope of your feature :)
09:48*andythenorth has a 13" screen
09:48<andythenorth>other people I work with have 22" dual screen
09:48<Rhamphoryncus>But the reality is I use grep as my IDE ;)
09:49<andythenorth>viewport may be a flawed measurement :)
09:49<andythenorth>ho. a new truck graphic
09:49*andythenorth has started actually...drawing
09:49<Rhamphoryncus>What ho!
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09:54*andythenorth ponders curling bandit.cfg from web
09:58<andythenorth>bah
09:58<andythenorth>slows down building
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11:54<andythenorth>quiet
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12:04*Rhamphoryncus lurks behind andythenorth
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12:29<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r23938 /trunk/src/script/script_scanner.hpp: -Codechange: declare ScriptScanner::Initialize() and make it abstract, make the other overloaded Initialize() protected
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12:56<andythenorth>is it exam season?
12:56<andythenorth>can't be the weather luring people out doors
12:56<andythenorth>maybe the european interwebs has iced over
12:57<@Rubidium>andythenorth: well, the weather is quite nice for ice skating
12:58<@Rubidium>though the last week's weather was very unpredictable (according to the once running the trains)
12:59<andythenorth>anybody want to reimplement eGRVTS in nml? I think it's about 1 day's work + 1 day finding mistakes :P
13:00<@Rubidium>i.e. 70-80% of the time the sun could shine last week it did shine, no rain, relatively stable temperatures...
13:01*Rubidium wonders how long it takes until the first real 32bpp or ez NewGRF is released
13:02<andythenorth>won't be me
13:02<andythenorth>eGRVTS would be a good candidate, zeph has EZ sprites for a number of vehicles
13:02<andythenorth>I have a truck set [nearly] framework
13:03<andythenorth>which I am itching to test on some other hapless coder
13:03<andythenorth>as that will uncover strangeness in my thinking
13:04<andythenorth>compiles in ~7s
13:04<andythenorth>:D
13:14<Hirundo>Is there a way to extract all info (at least action0) from eGRVTS into some tracking table?
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13:16<Hirundo>Then the conversion to NML would be quite doable, but manually setting a few dozen properties for more than a few dozen vehicles would feel like a fabulous waste of time
13:17<Hirundo>and then there's still a lot of sprites and loading stages, articulation, etc to fix
13:18<andythenorth>Hirundo: zeph was pretty good about templating his sprites
13:18<andythenorth>eGRVTS is very...modular
13:18<Hirundo>sprites yes, but acc. his statements he writes his NFO in plain hex
13:19<andythenorth>if $someone could parse the nfo into a sane data structure...I could write the other side to parse it into a python config file
13:20<andythenorth>we might never write any nml at all :o
13:20<andythenorth>dict per vehicle would be favourite, or JSON or similar
13:20<andythenorth>or straight into config file
13:20<andythenorth>yes
13:21<andythenorth>that's why I haven't maintenance-patched it for various bugs
13:21<andythenorth>I am not going to spend time with my finger on the screen counting bytes
13:21<Hirundo>I'm looking into grf2html output now
13:21<andythenorth>FIRS nfo->nml conversion script was pretty robust
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13:24<andythenorth>could parse the dom of the grf2html output
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13:30<andythenorth>Hirundo: my target config format would be this: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/bandit/repository/entry/src/BANDIT.cfg
13:30<andythenorth>I'm quite interested in learning to write python config files as well as read them
13:30<andythenorth>so I would be happy to figure that out
13:31<Hirundo>as far as i can see, the nfo is quite easy
13:31<Hirundo>there's no action 6/7/9/D
13:31<Hirundo>only actions 0-4, 8 and one action 11 (sound)
13:34<andythenorth>plausible conversion then
13:34<Hirundo>varaction2 are mostly for articulation only
13:35<Hirundo>the few graphics switches I could find are for trailers, which seem to share IDs
13:35<andythenorth>yes
13:35<andythenorth>I kind of know the eGRVTS codebase, as we copied it for HEQS
13:35<andythenorth>zeph coded v1 of HEQS
13:35<andythenorth>then I took over
13:35<andythenorth>I commented it ;P
13:36<andythenorth>and added formatting :P
13:36<andythenorth>took a while :)
13:37<andythenorth>I don't share trailer IDs anymore
13:37<andythenorth>we have plenty spare ;)
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13:39<Hirundo>249 vehids total
13:39<Hirundo>of which 31 trailers
13:39<Hirundo>No wonder, I tended to get lost in the P-list
13:39<andythenorth>I wouldn't mind manually redoing all the properties
13:40<andythenorth>tedious, but not hard
13:41*Hirundo would mind tediousness
13:41<andythenorth>but I really don't want to sort out the pngs + realsprites
13:41<andythenorth>I hate doing that
13:41<andythenorth>i.e. rebuilding the templated offsets etc
13:42<andythenorth>BANDIT codebase uses the NML template system btw
13:42<andythenorth>for spritesets
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13:43<Hirundo>you could ask zeph, if he has any useful template info for the sprites
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13:44<Hirundo>then some python / PIL script should work
13:44<andythenorth>I could also ask him if he minds the conversion :)
13:44<andythenorth>if he likes nfo, this might annoy him
13:45<Hirundo>sounds like a good thing (tm)
13:45<andythenorth>could be the first grfcontainer2 grf though?
13:45<andythenorth>or the first with EZ anyway
13:45<Hirundo>which reminds me
13:45<Hirundo>I should be working on NML
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r23939 /trunk/src/lang/ (8 files): (log message trimmed)
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: croatian - 4 changes by VoyagerOne
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: english_US - 4 changes by Rubidium
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: finnish - 2 changes by jpx_
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: german - 1 changes by NG
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: italian - 1 changes by lorenzodv
13:46<Hirundo>instead of discussing, which tends to *not* produce working grfs out of thin air
13:46<Hirundo>Fixing NML doesn't either, but might help ;-)
13:46*andythenorth finds monologue necessary prelude to coding ;)
13:46<andythenorth>dialogue is even better
13:52<andythenorth>bbl
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13:59<Elukka>http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=152599
13:59<Elukka>what station set is that on the left?
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14:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r23940 /trunk/src/ (3 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: remove superfluous semicolons
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15:32<Hirundo>Yexo: Doing #3571 could cause grf breakage in some corner cases, is that acceptable?
15:33<Hirundo>'corner cases' being AFAIK only grfs with vehicles that have capacity but are not refittable
15:34<Hirundo>see http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/3571 <- planetmaker ?
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15:48<amews_aj>Hi, After upgrading 1.1.3 -> 1.1.5, the fonts are all weird. Tried resetting cfg file, but still fonts have changed. Wrong size, nonbold etc. Is this on purpose, or is something wrong?
15:50<@SmatZ>does that happen when you switch the game to English?
15:50<amews_aj>let me check
15:50<@SmatZ>what could have changed, is that the translation in 1.1.5 now includes some characters that are not included in the base font
15:51<@SmatZ>so it can't be used
15:51<amews_aj>where do I change language?
15:52<@SmatZ>in the Game Options
15:52<@SmatZ>(not Advanced Settings)
15:52<amews_aj>that fixed it.
15:52<amews_aj>Can't I force a the old look on the translated version ?
15:53<@Rubidium>maybe an update of OpenGFX helps
15:54<amews_aj>Rubidium, when installing 1.1.5 I chose to download opengfx
15:54<amews_aj>shouldn't that cause it to be updated?
15:55<amews_aj>opengfx 0.4.2
15:55<@SmatZ>in trunk, Danish looks fine... but it might be because of FS#5055
15:55<@SmatZ>which added letters like "OE"
15:56<@Rubidium>SmatZ: only to the original
15:56<amews_aj>I think the letter "Ø" was included in translations of previous versions as well
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15:57<@Rubidium>amews_aj: is 1.1.4 okay?
15:57<amews_aj>haven't tried it
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15:58<amews_aj>Rubidium, should I?
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15:59<@planetmaker>Hirundo: the question is: what's a good default cargo type?
16:00<@planetmaker>or should that rather be done explicitly by the player? IMHO yes
16:00<@planetmaker>then probably as a separate "property"
16:00<@planetmaker>though that's... difficult. It'll have to be a list property
16:00<@Rubidium>amews_aj: not needed, no different langauge updates there
16:00<@Rubidium>amews_aj: does 1.1.3 (with opengfx 0.4.2) still show the bold characters?
16:00<Hirundo>planetmaker: why? you can specify only one, right?
16:00<amews_aj>Well I just did, same thing
16:00<amews_aj>Rubidium, trying that next
16:01<@planetmaker>Hirundo: yes-ish. But what if that cargo doesn't exist?
16:01<andythenorth>climates...
16:02<Hirundo>planetmaker: then it picks first refittable, if possible using the order in the CTT
16:02<@SmatZ>hmm 1.1 looks fine for me @ Danish
16:02<Hirundo>unless the vehicle is not refittable at all, in which case the default cargo is the only cargo and refitting is not possible (like the default vehs)
16:02<@Rubidium>SmatZ: which opengfx are you using?
16:02<amews_aj>Rubidium, no, 1.1.3 is also bad now
16:03<__ln__>Danish shouldn't be using any unusual characters (non-Latin-1) so it's a bit weird.
16:03<@SmatZ>Rubidium: ok, not with OpenGFX
16:04<@SmatZ>it looks fine with original graphics, but not with opengfx ...
16:04<@SmatZ>0.4.2
16:04<amews_aj>so what to do to solve it? Bugfix? Something I can do temporarily ?
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16:04<@Rubidium>amews_aj: did you ever use the graphics of Transport Tycoon Deluxe?
16:05<amews_aj>I don't have the game, and using it without a copy of the game would not be legal I suppose
16:06<@Rubidium>amews_aj: section 9 of the readme has a short bit about how to override the font
16:06<@Rubidium>planetmaker: amews_aj "wants" to report a regression in OpenGFX w.r.t. glyphs gone missing for Danish in OpenTTD 1.1.x
16:06<amews_aj>Rubidium, I did that, but I cannot find the default fonts
16:07<@Rubidium>amews_aj: the "default" font is in opengfx, but when characters (glyphs) are missing it asks the operating system for the best font
16:07<@planetmaker>hm ?
16:08<amews_aj>Rubidium, so I can't get the "default" font back by manual override? It's not a standard font ?
16:08<@Rubidium>planetmaker: opengfx 0.4.2, Danish translation: in OpenTTD 1.1.x misses glyphs, in 1.2.x is does miss glyphs
16:09<@Rubidium>amews_aj: exactly
16:09<amews_aj>:(
16:09<@planetmaker>in both versions? hm
16:09<amews_aj>Rubidium, Would it work downgrading opengfx, or only if I downgrade to openttd 1.1.3 as well?
16:09<@Rubidium>planetmaker: in 1.2.x it does NOT miss glyphs ;)
16:09<@planetmaker>ah, ok
16:09<@planetmaker>that I wondered
16:09<@Rubidium>amews_aj: you could downgrade opengfx
16:10<amews_aj>ok
16:10<@planetmaker>it might as well be that I made the checks to strict.
16:10<@Rubidium>but you need to manually find the older version
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16:10<amews_aj>Rubidium, not on a build server ?
16:10<@Rubidium>of opengfx
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16:10<@planetmaker>amews_aj:: Do you know which OpenGFX you used before?
16:10<amews_aj>unfortunately, no
16:10<@planetmaker>which version?
16:10*andythenorth -> bed
16:10<@Rubidium>amews_aj: yes, but using the 1.1.3 installer will not get the older opengfx
16:11<amews_aj>the one that was installed when openttd 1.1.3 was out
16:11<@Rubidium>planetmaker: I'm assuming it's monospace related
16:11<@planetmaker>well... I specifically rewrote that part already once ;-)
16:11<@Rubidium>amews_aj: you need http://www.openttd.org/en/download-opengfx/0.3.7 I think
16:11<@planetmaker>and have a special section for monospace
16:12<@planetmaker>which simply is not included for openttd 1.1.x
16:12<amews_aj>Rubidium, Ok. Maybe I'll just go with english UI at the moment.
16:12<@planetmaker>amews_aj: in order to fix: which strings do not work anymore?
16:12<amews_aj>planetmaker, well all of them. The strings are there, but with wrong font
16:12<@planetmaker>I *need* something to pinpoint in order to address this bug
16:13<@planetmaker>what is "wrong" font?
16:13<amews_aj>Don't know what font it is... Want a screenshot?
16:13<@planetmaker>can you show me (screenshot)?
16:13<@planetmaker>post them to imagebin.com
16:13<@planetmaker>imagebin.org
16:13<@planetmaker>sorry
16:16<amews_aj>http://imagebin.org/198586 Don't mind it says 1.1.3 - it's the same with 1.1.5
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16:17<@planetmaker>and... that's how it should or should not look?
16:17<@planetmaker>(It's not the game-supplied font)
16:17<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r23941 /trunk/ (7 files in 5 dirs): -Add: support for clang
16:17<amews_aj>should not
16:17<@Rubidium>planetmaker: that's showing the opengfx font isn't chosen
16:17<@Rubidium>whereas in 1.2.0 it is chosen
16:18<@Rubidium>and according to amews_aj the opengfx font was chosen in an earlier version of opengfx as well
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16:19<@Rubidium>but I'll try bisecting
16:19<@Rubidium>812 good, tip bad
16:21<amews_aj>Rubidium, planetmaker, Can a bugfix be expected anytime soon ?
16:22<@SmatZ>amews_aj: 1.2.0-beta4 should work for you ;)
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16:22<amews_aj>SmatZ, But I cannot play on a lot of servers with 1.2.0
16:22<@Rubidium>amews_aj: depends on what you think is soon
16:22<@planetmaker>:-)
16:23<@Rubidium>if soon is in astrological or paleotological time scales, then yes
16:23<@planetmaker>amews_aj: with 1.2.0 you cannot play on any :-P
16:23<amews_aj>Of course :) But any guesses? (I won't complain if it isn't correct)
16:24<@SmatZ>#openttdcoop.stable allows you to play beta4 ;)
16:24<@planetmaker>amews_aj: you'll probably have to estimate my time budget
16:24<@planetmaker>Even I myself fail at that
16:24<@SmatZ>:(
16:24<@Rubidium>darn it... opengfx doesn't compile anymore with my image boundary patch :(
16:24<amews_aj>heh :D
16:25<@planetmaker>there will be one before April
16:25<amews_aj>I am a developer myself. Is it an easy fix that I will be able to do myself ?
16:26<@planetmaker>the difficult thing here probably is building OpenGFX. And knowing the NewGRF language
16:26<@Rubidium>depends on what the bug is
16:26<amews_aj>oh, it's a custom language?
16:26<@planetmaker>Technically it's probably not that complicated. But what Rubidium says
16:26<@planetmaker>It first needs to be found where it is
16:26<amews_aj>Rubidium, just sounded like you thought to know what caused the bug ?
16:27<@Rubidium>my statement was in the order of: "last time this car was in the garage you did mess with the motor management, so the malfunction of the motor might have to do with that"
16:27<amews_aj>hehe :D
16:28<@Rubidium>and bisecting isn't going as I hoped
16:28<@Rubidium>hit already two non-working revs
16:28<@planetmaker>meh
16:28<amews_aj>Oh well, english is fine. Is there any release plan for 1.2.0 yet? I mean, maybe it's not worth looking for the bug in 1.1.5 now ?
16:28<@Rubidium>852 is good
16:29<@Rubidium>amews_aj: it's not a bug in OpenTTD
16:29<@Rubidium>it's a bug in OpenGFX, which is a separate project with a separate release schedule
16:29<@Yexo>amews_aj: there is no official release plan, but look at the release dates for 1.1 and 1.0 to get some idea
16:29<amews_aj>Rubidium, well no, but it's a combination. Works with 1.2.0 you said
16:30<@Rubidium>then ~7-ish weeks if nothing major comes up
16:30<@SmatZ>also... what has changed between 1.1.1 and 1.1.5, so the text is so misplaced now? http://devs.openttd.org/~smatz/screenshot_111.png vs. http://devs.openttd.org/~smatz/screenshot_115.png
16:31<@planetmaker>That looks disgusting, SmatZ :-(
16:31<@Rubidium>SmatZ: look at fontcache.cpp
16:31<@Rubidium>I've got the feeling the font is bad though
16:31<amews_aj>I noticed the "X"'s on the windows are misplaced as well here
16:32<amews_aj>but maybe just due to wrong font
16:32<@Rubidium>SmatZ: I guess it's r23038
16:33<@SmatZ>@fs 23038
16:33<@DorpsGek>SmatZ: http://bugs.openttd.org/task/23038
16:33<@SmatZ>errr.....
16:33<@SmatZ>@commit 23038
16:33<@DorpsGek>SmatZ: Commit by peter1138 :: r23038 trunk/src/fontcache.cpp (2011-10-18 17:57:42 UTC)
16:33<@DorpsGek>SmatZ: -Fix: Check that the selected font size is valid the font face in use and choose the nearest size to that selected if not. Font metrics should then just work.
16:34<@Rubidium>870 bad
16:35<@SmatZ>Rubidium: indeed, reverting r23038 on 1.1 fixes the misalignment
16:36<@Rubidium>for that font
16:39<@Rubidium>planetmaker: I suspect 858 (1139-1150)
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16:40<@planetmaker>Thanks for testing, Rubi. I'll check it this week
16:41<@Rubidium>though when bisection is done I'll know if it's really that revision
16:41<@planetmaker>I created an issue for OpenGFX: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/3690#change-9607
16:45<@Rubidium>856 good
16:47<@Rubidium>it might be that 1.2.0 is smarter about missing glyphs
16:47<@Rubidium>858 bad
16:47<@planetmaker>IIRC we took out a few special glyphs from the checks
16:49<@Rubidium>nope... doesn't seem to be smater
16:49<@Rubidium>857 good
16:51<@Rubidium>oh...
16:53<@Rubidium>r23582 'fixes' it in trunk
16:54<@Rubidium>so whatever characters were removed due to that in opengfx should remain in the branch for 1.1.x and earlier
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17:03<@Rubidium>amews_aj: my initial guess about the bug in opengfx was wrong and I fear a proper review to fix the complete bug requires quite some checking. So I doubt it'll be a quick fix
17:03<amews_aj>ok
17:05<@Rubidium>nevertheless replacing opengfx with 0.3.7 should be a good short term fix
17:06<amews_aj>There are no important bugfixes that I will miss then ?
17:07<@Rubidium>depends what you perceive to be important
17:07<amews_aj>Guess I'll just take a look at the changelog
17:08<@Rubidium>it's mostly minor graphics issues and improved graphics you'll be missing out
17:10<Wolf01>'night
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17:26<frosch123>night
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18:02<@Terkhen>good night
18:08<@planetmaker>good night here, too
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18:18<Nat_AS>is there any newgrifs that add a tourism industry?
18:19<Nat_AS>factories that just have a high passenger rating and maybe a bit of goods/food/mail
18:19<Nat_AS>like static towns
18:24<Hirundo>ECS has 'tourists' as a separate cargo
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18:25<Nat_AS>well that's silly
18:26<Nat_AS>I could understand them as a separate subcategory of passengers. But requiring them to use different cars is silly.
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18:29<Nat_AS>it would be cool if the game recognized different classes of passenger.
18:29<Nat_AS>and maybe different classes of goods.
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18:29<Nat_AS>they could be stored in the same cars, BUT go to different destinations.
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20:20<Nat_AS>why are there no two sided path signals?
20:20<Nat_AS>:?
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---Logclosed Mon Feb 13 00:00:41 2012