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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-02-14

---Logopened Tue Feb 14 00:00:45 2012
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05:38<Rhamphoryncus>... huh. OrderList::IsCompleteTimetable returns true if there are no orders, letting timetable_duration be 0
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06:15<benspartan>Hi there
06:16<benspartan>Is the 1.1.3 version is still available somewhere?
06:17<benspartan>I can't manage to find it
06:17<@planetmaker>but why would you want that old version?
06:17<@planetmaker>IF you play 1.1 branch, I'd severly recommend 1.1.5 at least
06:18<benspartan>nice, i thought i would have to recompile it
06:18<benspartan>I know
06:18<benspartan>but ther server i usually play on is still on 1.1.3
06:19<@planetmaker>he's doing something wrong then
06:19<benspartan>the admin is a ghost is fact
06:19<@planetmaker>especially server owners should be interested in running the latest stable release, especially in this case
06:19<@planetmaker>As the fixes between 1.1.4 and 1.1.5 harden the server and make it less vulnerable to attacks
06:20<benspartan>I think he's not playing anymore
06:20<@planetmaker>you might want to consider other servers then :-)
06:20<benspartan>he just keeps the server up
06:23<benspartan>I like this one because maps are not huge, there is comptetion, a goal (8-9BGP) and nice people
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08:14<xiong>Hi, I'm trying to understand why the center tile of a 3x3 block so often refuses to build, even under steady and long encouragement. Source seems to indicate that road access can be as far as a tile away; and I've seen buildings on the outskirts like that.
08:15<xiong>But even building a short, one-tile road section into the middle of a 3x3 block is not always enough to provoke it to build; while cutting the block down to a 2x3 usually *is* enough. What's going on?
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08:16<xiong>I also notice that buildings seem to come in alongside new roads but not at the ends of them -- sometimes but less likely. True?
08:17<V453000>andythenorth: do petrol pumps/general stores die if they are ignored?
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08:26<Rhamphoryncus>xiong: town growth is.. funky
08:26<xiong>Boy, it sure is!
08:27<Rhamphoryncus>It basically starts at the center, crawls outward in a random pattern, then eventually stops and does something
08:27<xiong>I don't know why Game Mechanics is silent on it.
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08:29<xiong>I'm fairly certain that I can produce more or less consistent results by building the extra road across the edge of a 3x3 block. The trouble comes when there isn't such an edge vacant. I'm reluctant to doze three buildings (or even one) to encourage the center tile to build.
08:31<xiong>I'm even more peeved when I get the center to build, remove the extra road; the three newly vacant tiles build, too -- so all is well. And then, for some peculiar reason, the center building drops out -- perhaps four houses are replaced by a stadium, which later is replaced by... three houses. I feel I'm doing it wrong.
08:31<xiong>I don't like the so-called 2x2 grid at all.
08:34<Rhamphoryncus>2x2 grid with a center tile?
08:36<Rhamphoryncus>2x2 doesn't have center tiles
08:36<xiong>I mean, I prefer the so-called 3x3. I don't want to resort to 2x2 because I can't fill the centers of the 3x3 blocks.
08:37<Rhamphoryncus>all the 3x3 I see use the center tile
08:37<xiong>A 3x3 block is actually a 4x4 grid. Four is a good number. A 2x2 block is a 3x3 grid. Three is not such a great number. Besides, it's just too much road for the amount of town.
08:38<Rhamphoryncus>It has a building
08:38<xiong>Wait a minute; I may not have spoken clearly. Screenshot to the rescue... wait one.
08:44<Rhamphoryncus>hmm, so a lot of your 3x3 blocks have empty centres
08:45<xiong>Classic; illustrates all cases. Three blocks at town center have no building in center square. I've checked; they're not parks.
08:45<Rhamphoryncus>What version are you using?
08:45<xiong>Um, this is chillpack, hex version number, very hard to type. But I've seen just the same with vanilla nightlies.
08:46<xiong>Anyway, chillpack doesn't advertise any monkey business with town building.
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08:47<Rhamphoryncus>What's the version on the vanilla nightly? Just to be thorough
08:47<xiong>Note that in some blocks I've forced the center tile to build with that extra road. You can see the south-most block has just now built its center and I've removed the extra road.
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08:49<Rhamphoryncus>Also, take the vanilla nightly, open up scenario editor, place some 3x3 towns, then expand them and see what happens
08:50<xiong>Found it. Looks like 1.1.0-beta5 (2011-02-04).
08:50*Rhamphoryncus mumbles about "latest" not being a valid version, ever ;)
08:50<xiong>Yah, dunno, I hadn't thought in terms of serious diagnostics and experiments here.
08:51<xiong>I assumed at first, without thinking, that center tiles did not build because they had no road access -- open and shut.
08:51<Rhamphoryncus>Go grab the latest (heh) 1.2.0 beta:
08:51<xiong>I'm still assuming this is all normal.
08:52<Rhamphoryncus>I'm betting 1.2.0 added tweaked logic for 3x3 towns so it would fill in the centres
08:52<Rhamphoryncus>Or any of 1.1.1 through 1.1.5
08:52<xiong>Are you saying this is *not* normal? Are you blaming chillpack or, more likely, the vanilla base for whatever I've got?
08:53<Rhamphoryncus>I'm blaming your old version
08:53<xiong>I just thought I was doing it wrong.
08:53<Rhamphoryncus>It works fine for me
08:54<xiong>I never played real heavily with the vanilla version I have installed; I went to chillpack quickly. Did most of my old playing with nightlies.
08:54<Rhamphoryncus>But I would suggest one trick to try: rather than a road straight at the center tile you could go in, then turn. Make it a bend so it doesn't assume that road will get grown further
08:54<xiong>Ah yes. Thought of that. Note the block to the west of town center.
08:55<xiong>There, the "access road" is only a half-tile in, with a full-tile "T". So the center tile doesn't face an uncompleted dead end.
08:56<Rhamphoryncus>ahh right
08:56<xiong>I've also tried simple half-tile dead ends. Doesn't seem to matter. What does work is two or more adjacent tiles. I notice that block corners seem to build preferentially and theorize that quantity of adjacent tiles counts.
08:57<xiong>To the southwest I've got another "T" dead-end. Hasn't built. Nothing works as well as a road straight across.
08:58<Rhamphoryncus>Hrm. Looks like chillpak isn't currently developed
08:58<xiong>I guess if I care about this as much as I seem, I really should break out the most recent vanilla release, build some very specific demo towns, and work them scientifically. Store raw data, all of that.
08:58<Rhamphoryncus>It's based on an older version.. and he accidentally broke savegame compatibility with trunk
08:58<xiong>But the point of playing the game is to amuse myself, not make more work.
08:59<Rhamphoryncus>I'd recommend you live with it for now, but for your next game grab 1.2 (or whatever the latest beta is)
09:02<xiong>Yes, there's wisdom in that suggestion. But I really like some of chillpack's patches.
09:02<xiong>I'm not sure how eager I am to roll my own patchpack.
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09:19<Nite>thanks for the 120beta4
09:20<Rhamphoryncus>My pleasure. Not that I had anything to do with it.
09:21<Nite>i wasn't able to connect properly in 1.1.5 so instead of talking to all the server hostings to change their settings of strange timeout parameters or something
09:21<Nite>i paused playing ottd (no 1.1.5 for me :-( )
09:21<Nite>1.2.0 works as fluid as ever for me
09:22<Nite>keep it taht way!
09:22<xiong>Thanks for talking about it, Rhamphoryncus. I'm now considering this not so much of a gameplay issue and more of a software issue.
09:22<Rhamphoryncus>xiong: *nods*
09:23<Nite>the extra zoom levels are a nice touch too (i set it to 2x in) will help with some signal constellations
09:23<xiong>At the least, it might be worthwhile to set up some serious test games and at least be able to write some sort of current documentation, with facts to back it up.
09:24<xiong>1.2.0 has extra zoom?
09:24<Rhamphoryncus>xiong: yup
09:24<xiong>Does that mean the 32bpp project has been folded into trunk?
09:25<Rhamphoryncus>Well, I don't think so anyway
09:26<Rhamphoryncus>There is some sort of 32bpp renderer, but it's significantly slower, and I don't know if you can actually use 32bpp graphics.. or maybe it just doesn't come with them. No idea really.
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09:28<xiong>Are the signals any more readable?
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09:33<Nite>"Make default timeouts for certain network states lower and configurable [CVE-2012-0049] [FS#4955] (r23764)" ruined version 1.1.5 for me
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09:34<Nite>it loks like this is already back to as it was before in 1.2.0 anybeta
09:34<Rhamphoryncus>Nite: I was discussing that earlier
09:34<Nite>telling every host to configure his timeouts would be too much hassle
09:35<Rhamphoryncus>It needs a system that doesn't block play while someone is connecting
09:35<Nite>what was the outcome of the discussion? Rhamphoryncus
09:36<Nite>youmean pause play?
09:36<Rhamphoryncus>I can't recall heh
09:36<Nite>i can live with the short pauses
09:36<Rhamphoryncus>And yes
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09:36<Rhamphoryncus>problem is the pauses aren't necessarily short
09:36<Rhamphoryncus>That's why the timeout is small
09:37<Nite>having cookies or chips on the desk solves the problem of the connecting player pause perfectly well !
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09:37<Nite>for me teh connecting timeout was ok
09:37<TWerkhoven2>im sure you can turn pause-while-connecting can be turned off, but that may prevent slower computers from joining if the game gets too big
09:37<Nite>but ingame i always got disconnected
09:37<TWerkhoven2>as they may not be able to catch up
09:38<+michi_cc>Rhamphoryncus: The 32bpp renderer is exactly the same renderer the ez patch used (only that they added a horribly complicated and slow recolouring that was calculated for every pixel). And since some time now you can supply extra zoom sprites in both 8bpp and 32bpp, somebody just has to draw them (I wouldn't count on the 32bpp project with their glacial speed).
09:38<Rhamphoryncus>michi_cc: ahh, I see
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09:38<Nite>again: i could connect to game noramlly, i get disconnected in the first minutes of actually playing in 1.1.5
09:39<Nite>but i swept 1.1.5 off the drive already and put my hope in 1.2.0 (the beta works smooth)
09:40<Nite>maybee it will clear up in future what caused it ...
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09:47<Nite>when does the "auto refit" button get nongreyedout ??
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09:48<Nite>Oh and, rivers are great addition
09:49<Nite>"flat" bridges come in mind
09:53<Nite>the changelog does not say that network timeout settings are back to old, but 1.2.0 still works for me ... hmmmmm ... whatever ...
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10:01<+michi_cc>Nite: When you use a vehicle NewGRF with support for it.
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10:09<Nite>the maintainance on off switch does what?
10:09<Nite>... have 2 go cya
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10:13<Ammler>hetzner has a lot of network issues :0-(
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11:05<CargoBoy>hi all :)
11:06<CargoBoy>i have a question
11:06<CargoBoy>about oil transport
11:06<CargoBoy>i am trying to set up an oli service
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11:06<CargoBoy>that starts with a rail transport
11:06<CargoBoy>and finish with a road transport
11:07<CargoBoy>but my train station seems that do not accept oil
11:07<CargoBoy>how i have to do?
11:08<@Belugas>because a train station as such does not accept anything
11:08<CargoBoy>so what i have to do?
11:09<@Belugas>if you want your station to accept oil, you have to install it very close to a rafinery
11:09<CargoBoy>my train station includes a cargo stop
11:09<CargoBoy>so i cant tranship oil between trains and cargoes?
11:10<CargoBoy>(sorry 4 my bad english)
11:11<@Belugas>oil is transported from rigs and wells to this :
11:11<@Belugas>this produces goods
11:11<@Belugas>put your station as close as possible to it
11:11<@Belugas>after a while, the reginery will produce goods
11:12<CargoBoy>ok, i understand
11:12<@Belugas>pick them up and send them to the towns, if you have towns accepting goods :)
11:12<CargoBoy>ok :)
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11:12<CargoBoy>i hoped in combined transport :(
11:13<CargoBoy>to save some $$$
11:13<Elukka>you can have a vehicle drop the oil off on a station that doesn't accept it and have another vehicle pick it up and transport it to the refinery
11:13<Elukka>say, have a ship bring it to a dock and trains to transport it to the refinery
11:13<Elukka>you have to use the transfer order
11:14<CargoBoy>this is what i want to do
11:14<CargoBoy>drop oil in the train station
11:14<@Belugas>you can do that too, but bear in mind that the cargo dropped at the station will "vanish" slowly
11:14<CargoBoy>and take it with a road transport
11:14<Elukka>yeah that's doable
11:15<Elukka>in the orders menu click transfer on the station where you want to it to drop off the oil
11:15<CargoBoy>i'll try this
11:16<CargoBoy>this is the thing that i missed
11:16<CargoBoy>many thanks ;)
11:17<CargoBoy>see you soon my friends :)
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12:03<CIA-1>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r23945 /trunk/src/ (strings.cpp strings_func.h): -Fix: Better rounding when converting internal speed to displayed speed.
12:04<CIA-1>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r23946 /trunk/src/ (order_type.h timetable_cmd.cpp timetable_gui.cpp): -Codechange: Pass a proper enum instead of a bit flag to CmdChangeTimetable for indicating what to change.
12:04<CIA-1>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r23947 /trunk/src/ (15 files in 6 dirs): -Feature: Timetabled maximum travel speeds for non-flying vehicles.
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12:50<Yacudzer>hi all... could someone help with cyclotrons??
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13:39<dihedral>yexo - you hurt my feelings ... you needed to be reminded of the admin port :-(
13:40<@SmatZ>CAN'T BE!
13:40<@SmatZ>hello :P
13:42<dihedral>a dih-what? where?
13:43<@SmatZ> : It works! :)
13:44<dihedral>oh yep :-D
13:44<dihedral>my fav last web setup was
13:45<dihedral>an online music library in flash on my own server :-)
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r23948 /trunk/src/lang/ (6 files): (log message trimmed)
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: belarusian - 31 changes by Wowanxm
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: english_US - 6 changes by Rubidium
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: finnish - 5 changes by jpx_
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: italian - 3 changes by lorenzodv
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: lithuanian - 6 changes by Stabilitronas
13:46<dihedral>i'll be back tonight ... i think :-P else tomorrow ;-)
13:46<@SmatZ>are you enjoying the Valentine's day evening? :)
13:47<dihedral>i do not think we are going to do anything other than relax
13:47<@Alberth>that's a good day to celebrate valentine's day :)
13:47<dihedral>my gf is a florist, and had to work late for all the blokes needing to buy something today ^^
13:49<dihedral>well - i need to get a move on, else she aint gonna love me for being late - and that would be the end of a relaxed evening :-P
13:49<@SmatZ>bye bye dih :)
13:49<@Alberth>bye, enjoy your evening :)
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14:49*Belugas yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyaaaaawns
14:50<frosch123>he, you can read my mind
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15:20<supermop>hi andy!
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15:46*andythenorth ponders
15:46<andythenorth>HEQS -> pynml?
15:47<supermop>what does that mean?
15:50<__ln__>must be british english
15:53<andythenorth>means, should I convert HEQS code to python + nml?
15:53<andythenorth>from nfo
15:53<supermop>is it easy or at least interesting to do?
15:53<andythenorth>it's fun
15:53<andythenorth>but offers no gameplay benefit
15:54<andythenorth>it's bad engineering
15:54<andythenorth>it might be good entertainment
15:54<supermop>and are there future changes to heqs that will be helped by it?
15:54<andythenorth>refit vehicles to varying numbers of trailers
15:54<andythenorth>which is planned
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15:56<andythenorth>it would force me to decide whether to subclass objects or keep using squirrely 'if' statements
15:57<andythenorth>e.g. 'tractor' might be a subclass of 'vehicle'
15:57<andythenorth>or there might be lots of code like 'if type == tractor: stuff; elif type=='bulldozer': stuff; else: stuff
15:58<andythenorth>also it means I can avoid drawing BANDIT
16:01*Hirundo objects, prefers bandit instead
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16:18*andythenorth doesn't convert HEQS :P
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16:33<andythenorth>good night
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16:48<Zuu>How would you make a 5 (or 6) answer question with the GameScript dialogs which can at most have 3 buttons?
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16:49<Hirundo>For a really fun UI, use the 4th dimension (aka time) ;-)
16:49<Zuu>Perhaps like a wizard with (prev), Start, Next.
16:50<Hirundo>ie click this button after 1 sec for answer A, 2 sec for answer B, etc
16:50<Zuu>Where start picks the scenario.
16:50<Hirundo>though your suggestion seems more appropriate :-)
16:50<Zuu>Especially as there are no generic buttons for making a tree selection.
16:50<Hirundo>It's a scenario picker?
16:51<Zuu>Eg. click 1 for chapter 1 or 2, click 2 for chapter 3 and 4, ... and then a second question below that one.
16:51<Zuu>Its a chapter selection dialog.
16:51<Zuu>For the tutorial.
16:51<Hirundo>then <prev start next> makes sense
16:52<Hirundo>you can also add a few short descriptions of what they learn in that chapter
16:52<Zuu>yep thats a bonus with this approach.
16:53<Hirundo>such mental preparation can be useful, also it might help if you don't remember exactly at which point you quit last time
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---Logclosed Wed Feb 15 00:00:47 2012