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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-02-15

---Logopened Wed Feb 15 00:00:47 2012
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00:25<tk>is openttd not libre? my distro provides opengfx and opengsx and seperate packages
00:25<tk>does it not use these libre packages by default?
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00:38<Epi>anyone know... if it's a stright line how I can work out the max distance for best profit using hovercraft?
00:39<supermop>trial an error?
00:40<Epi>been doing that atm, takes a while. ah well
00:43<supermop>i am not sure if there is a good way to calculate it on paper
00:45<DabuYu>there's the operating profit graph for passengers
00:46<DabuYu>hard to get the real values from that - but you can use that, and map the operating costs of the hovercraft
00:46<DabuYu>i think
00:46<DabuYu>but why to do all that effort, just play the game :)
00:46<supermop>well see if you can get the speed of the hovercraft in tiles per day
00:47<supermop>then take the passenger payment decay graph
00:48<DabuYu>(is this an idea to create an in-game optimal distance graph per unit?)
00:48<supermop>and at each day mark on the x axis muliply the payment y by number of tiles the boat would have traveled by that day
00:48<Epi>that would be cool, although i lack any said knoledge xD
00:48<DabuYu>me too :)
00:48<supermop>and at the tallest point, thats the best place
00:48<Epi>i might aim for the tiles crossed per day (it's not that great, i think 6ish with the hovercraft) and passanger decay graph
00:48<DabuYu>but it should be possible
00:49<Epi>my friend hates them, which is why i love them xD
00:49<supermop>if you can get an actual function for the decay rate it woud be easier
00:58<@Rubidium>tk: opensfx (sound) is less free than the other packages. It's also easily possible to play the game with Transport Tycoon Deluxe's graphics, sounds and music. So having a 'soft' dependency on the graphics isn't a bad thing
01:01<@Rubidium>also the sounds, graphics and music are platform independent and have their own release schedules, so they can be (and are) released at other times and other intervals than OpenTTD itself
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01:09<Epi>mm another issue i found is my hovercraft gets paid 5k one way, 10k the other way. so strange (both same load of full passangers
01:09<xiong>Epi, is it possible that your pax do not all originate at the terminals of the hovercraft line?
01:10<xiong>Also, are you quite sure that the time on route is the same in both directions? Timetable it and see.
01:11<Epi>ah! that would explain it, i have been moving one dock further out slowly. the passangers are from the origional town
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01:15<Epi>slowly moving the dock further out lets you make the ship goto said dock without using a bouy
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01:55<ET>hey all
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01:57<ET>I seem to have run into a problem with FIRS industry replacement. I have a forest connected to a sawmill connected to a lumber yard. I have a single train which refits after dropping off the wood. the problem is that if I drop off 120 wood, I only seem to pick up about 25 lumber. I am waiting 10 days at the sawmill... any ideas?
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03:53<andythenorth>also au revoir :)
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05:49<V453000>hello, I have a question - is there a way to make a industries "funding only" map in the scenario editor? Or is the only way create map with funding only -> make it a sav->scn -> scenario with funding only
05:51<Ammler>do you still need to rename a save to load it with scenario editor?
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05:54<V453000>at leas I think so
05:54<V453000>yes you do
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06:02<Ammler>FRs on bugs.o.o are indeed useless :-)
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07:11<CIA-1>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r23949 /trunk/src/lang/ (english.txt english_US.txt): -Fix (r23947): Wrong positional parameter for timetable string.
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07:20<andythenorth>could we make vehicle expiry date a little more deterministic?
07:20<andythenorth>one option would be a cb
07:20<andythenorth>maybe accompanied by a new grf-wide var to check availability of one or more vehicles
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07:47*andythenorth ponders
07:47<andythenorth>¿ special spriteset syntax that lets nml do compile-time compositing of pngs?
07:47<andythenorth>using the offsets, bounding box etc
07:48*andythenorth wonders if PIL can be taught about alpha masks
07:49<andythenorth>oh dear
07:49<andythenorth>this is something I could try for myself :o
07:51<andythenorth>if run-time compositing for vehicles is a bad idea....compile time might be ok
07:51<andythenorth>whether it's TMWFTLB is another question
07:51<andythenorth>but photoshop twiddling is dull
07:51<andythenorth>code is fun
07:56<dihedral>hihihi - i was getting tons of requests to one of my servers ip addresses, for i have no idea what, so i wrote a rewrite rule to send all requests to a single php script. the php script outputs a 404 response header and adds the source ip to be dropped in the firewall :-D
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08:01<andythenorth>cargo colouring could be done at compile time
08:01<andythenorth>probably make the compile *much* slower
08:01<andythenorth>ho ho ho
08:01<andythenorth>PIL has a putpixel() method
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08:02*andythenorth smells procedural generation
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08:08<andythenorth>anyone written a graphics shader before?
08:09<andythenorth>no point in me reinventing wheel
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08:22*andythenorth is very bad at maths, so will probably do it wrong
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10:18<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23950 /trunk/src/goal.cpp: -Fix (r23731) [FS#5063]: never show GSGoal::Question() to spectators. Accidently INVALID_COMPANY == COMPANY_SPECTATOR
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12:16<Rhamphoryncus>Hmm, that'll definitely need cleanup. I've got a function with i, j, k, and l temporaries. :)
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12:20<frosch123> <- i think whoever translated that into german trolled his client
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12:22<Rhamphoryncus>frosch123: a volunteer translator for minecraft put racist messages in one :(
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12:23<frosch123>ohoh, maybe it was automatically translated from chinese... and the dictionary used circumscroptions for words which have no definite translation
12:24<frosch123>Rhamphoryncus: can always happen, but then you can just ban people
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12:25<Rhamphoryncus>frosch123: yeah, but it waited until they got complaints
12:25<Rhamphoryncus>Might have been with a prerelease version though
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12:48<nicfer>hi everyone
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13:32<andythenorth>how interesting
13:33*andythenorth just created a raw image with PIL
13:33<andythenorth>it's useless :P
13:33<andythenorth>but that's a new trick
13:34<@Terkhen>can you teach it to draw good trucks?
13:35<andythenorth>I'm contemplating that
13:35<andythenorth>I'm pretty certain I can teach it to comp load sprites onto trucks
13:35<andythenorth>e.g. so I draw a flat trailer of length x
13:35<andythenorth>and it comps on loads for steel, wood, tractors, crates etc
13:36<andythenorth>I think I can teach it to recolour things as well
13:38<andythenorth>I'm also certain I could teach it to draw flat trailers
13:38<andythenorth>and tank trailers
13:39<andythenorth>other types - might be more work defining the procedures than I save by automating it
13:39<andythenorth>there's some threshold of complexity where defining rules for automation gets hard
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13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r23951 /trunk/src/lang/ (6 files): (log message trimmed)
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: dutch - 10 changes by habell
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: german - 6 changes by NG, planetmaker
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: italian - 6 changes by lorenzodv
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: latvian - 9 changes by Parastais
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: lithuanian - 33 changes by Stabilitronas
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13:59*andythenorth has ideas
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14:08<andythenorth>I can seed pixels from a basic floorplate
14:09<andythenorth>using magic colours probably
14:09<andythenorth>it's then quite trivial to say 'if pixel is hue xx: draw 4 pixels in y direction, using pattern aaba' or whatever
14:10<andythenorth>this will be completely adequate for trailers
14:11<andythenorth>it's kind of like extruding splines
14:11<supermop>this sounds far more complicated than drawing it yourself
14:11<andythenorth>supermop: it's more fun this way
14:11<andythenorth>want to draw some trucks?
14:11<andythenorth>I will accept donations
14:11<andythenorth>but if the alternative is me drawing, I'd rather learn something new and interesting
14:11<supermop>a few
14:12<supermop>if i can draw the murdered out renault from that episode of top gear
14:12<andythenorth>you could draw a magnum for the euro version of BANDIT
14:12<andythenorth>although I'm not working on that atm
14:13<andythenorth>and at BANDIT scale, trucks mostly look alike
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14:13<supermop>'refit to matte black vinyl'
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14:15<supermop>ive made progress on my EZ hitachi style monorails
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14:15<supermop>it would have made more sense to trace renders though
14:15<andythenorth>sorry :P
14:16<andythenorth>sorry :P
14:16<andythenorth>oh dear
14:17*andythenorth discovers the PIL ImageDraw module
14:17<supermop>they looks nice and ugly so far
14:17<andythenorth>this is no good
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14:17<supermop>but muddy at regular 1x zoom
14:18<andythenorth>PIL already has drawing support for lines, polygons, fills etc :(
14:18<andythenorth>where's the fun in that :|
14:18<supermop>what is pil?
14:18<supermop>more of your python business?
14:18<andythenorth>python imaging library
14:19<supermop>i see
14:19<andythenorth>it can draw pixels
14:19<supermop>is python a marketable language?
14:19<andythenorth>in what sense?
14:19<supermop>more and more it seems us old fashioned real world designers and architects should know some code
14:20<supermop>for when our industries collapse and we have to fall back on real jobs
14:20<andythenorth>lots of engineers know a small amount certainly
14:20<andythenorth>and biological scientists seem to know an insane amount on average
14:20<andythenorth>architecture remains one of the highest paid professions btw
14:20*andythenorth nearly did architecture
14:20<supermop>not for me
14:21<andythenorth>not for all
14:21<andythenorth>I guess average earnings are skewed by the calatravas and fosters
14:21<supermop>my friends are making around 50-55 in the city, best place in the country to do it
14:21<supermop>whereas people whe know who work with money make 70-80
14:22<supermop>and some lucky jerks are near 100
14:22<supermop>for a 27 or 28 year old that is quite comfortable
14:22<supermop>im stuck around 40 atm
14:23<supermop>but im taking a tangent in furniture
14:23<supermop>engineers in the city make money closer to finance guys than to architects
14:24<supermop>anyway thats all depressing to think about
14:25<supermop>if i wanted to learn something, would you suggest python over others?
14:25<andythenorth>python is fun most of all :)
14:25<supermop>i think my brother knows some and writes scripts for GIS with it
14:26<supermop>(little brother is an engineer)
14:26<andythenorth>and yes, the civil engineering course I did > 50% went into finance, only 25% into engineering
14:26<andythenorth>I quit and did other stuff too ;)
14:26<supermop>my brother stuck with hydrology
14:26<supermop>my dad has a phd in civil
14:27<supermop>but after about 6 years of work moved into management instead
14:28<andythenorth>supermop: try a python tutorial :)
14:29<supermop>did that for grasshopper and it helped
14:29<supermop>is C better for helping with ottd?
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14:37<andythenorth>supermop: can't comment on C++ vs python - I've failed to learn much C++ ;)
14:38<andythenorth>I can read most lines of ottd code, or at least guess
14:38<andythenorth>but that doesn't help me understand the bigger picture ;)
14:40<supermop>how does one add stuff to nml? is nml a thing that people patch?
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14:42<supermop>like for it to support bridges, someone has to write a patch to make that happen?
14:43<Hirundo>there are already (partial) patches for that lying around
14:43<supermop>do people want to improve bridges in ottd first?
14:43<Hirundo>what do you mean by that?
14:44<supermop>(bridgeheads, custom sprite layouts etc)
14:44<andythenorth>that would need ottd patched
14:44<supermop>yeah, are they waiting to add bridges to nml until that happens?
14:44<Hirundo>not really
14:45<Hirundo>basically it's a combination of a) bridges are not used that much and b) bridges require special constructs / code (for the sprite property)
14:46<Hirundo>There has been some discussion, see
14:48<supermop>i am not sure which is more important to me - the ability to have bridges with more than 6 unique tiles, or the ability to code a bridge in nml
14:48<Hirundo>If you want to get something done, providing patches generally helps, though in this case the low-hanging fruit is already picked
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14:49<Hirundo>Alternatively, a use case (I need nml feature X to write grf Y, and look I already have these cool looking sprites) helps a lot, too
14:51<Hirundo>supermop: Do you have a proposal for action123 for bridges?
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14:54<supermop>what is that?
14:54<supermop>i have ideas for things i'd like to be able to do
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14:54<supermop>and things i do in nfo take me forever
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14:56<Hirundo>supermop: Make an overview of what properties / variables / callbacks you'd like to add
14:58<Zuu>The new speed limit feature by michi_cc made me think about a wild idea. Partial order lists.
14:58<supermop>i love the speed limit thing
14:58<supermop>have wanted that for ages
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14:59<Zuu>And if you assign a partial order list to a waypoint, all vehicles that goes to that waypoint will execute that partial order after visiting the waypoint.
15:00<Zuu>To create a few common partial order lists that you can reuse.
15:00<Chav`>Hey all
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15:01<Zuu>Though it is maybe just a wild idea with some inspiration from Vissim.
15:01<@Alberth>all hey!
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15:03<@Alberth>sounds very weird :)
15:06<supermop>is it better to have all bridges be able to be used for all types of transit, or to have specific types of bridges exclusive to certain types of infrastructure?
15:07<andythenorth>all types
15:07<Zuu>Maybe the assignment to waypoint should rather be that you can define a partial order list for how to travel between two waypoints. So if a order list uses A -> Wp1 -> Wp2 -> B, you could have a partial order list defining an exact routing between Wp1 and Wp2 with speed limits. Only problem is that the waypoints you use to change speed limits need to not be counted towards partial order list selection. ...
15:07<supermop>if a monorail bridge is the same price as a steel rail bridge, that eliminates one of the only real advantages of monorails
15:08<supermop>(imagine the quintessential elevated monorail on concrete pillars)
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15:08<Hirundo>both infrastructure-specific and generic bridges should be possible, methinks
15:08<supermop>also a two-lane road on a rail tressel looks silly
15:10<andythenorth>supermop: I have no particular preference - 'all types' just seems easier ;)
15:10<supermop>but then a big suspension bridge, like the manhattan bridge, can an should be able to carry rail or road on any of its decks
15:10<supermop>and that raises an idea about converting bridges
15:10<andythenorth>so bridges gain a list of route types
15:10<andythenorth>oh - converting was one reason I think they should be all types
15:10<supermop>not just between rail types, but from rail to road
15:10<andythenorth>otherwise big headache
15:11<Hirundo>rail<>road is very tricky
15:11<Snail_>Multiple-deck bridges in OTTD?
15:11<andythenorth>Hirundo: GS? :)
15:11<supermop>(as in brooklyn and manhattan bridges) where some of the rail and tram decks were converted to road
15:11<Hirundo>could be done, needs additional coding in ottd though
15:12<Snail_>The brooklyn bridge is a one-deck bridge ;)
15:12<Hirundo>as far as I can tell (looking at ottd source now), all newgrf rail types use the rail bridges
15:12<Hirundo>normal rail that is, not mono/mglv
15:12<supermop>the passenger deck is elevated about the two road decks
15:12<Snail_>Unless you count the pedestrian section, of course
15:13<supermop>road decks are separate between north and south
15:13<supermop>with call back you can do multiple decks as adjacent bridges detecting each other and changing graphics to look joined up
15:13<Snail_>Yep but the elevated part is only accessible by pedestrians and bicycles
15:13<supermop>but you dont save any money
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15:14<supermop>(can do meaning could do if that was added to ottd)
15:17<Snail_>The concept of changing graphics if two bridges are adjacent could also be possible for tunnels, if thf custom tunnel portals get implemented
15:22<Hirundo>frosch123: ctt_include_mask / ctt_exclude_mask is never reset, so you can only set bits, not clear them. Is that intentional?
15:23<andythenorth>ho ho ho
15:23*andythenorth is reading pixels
15:23<frosch123>no idea :)
15:23<frosch123>railtype compatibility also behaves like that
15:23<frosch123>everything else resets stuff upon reassignment though
15:25<Hirundo>It means that if engine pool is off, cargos excluded this way can never be included by later grfs
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15:28<Nat_AS>is there anyway to make industries free?
15:28<Nat_AS>I forgot to turn on the manual industry newgrif and all the specificly placed factories in the scenerio I was playing expired
15:29<Nat_AS>I want to rebuild them, but I don't want to use the moneyadd cheat
15:29<Nat_AS>and can't afford 2mil
15:29<@Alberth>play a bit longer :)
15:29<Nat_AS>not sure how I'd make that much money without factories
15:30<@Alberth>but no, you cannot build them for free
15:30<@Alberth>what's the point of asking 2mil for it otherwise :p
15:30<Nat_AS>I have a nice oil and food chain (although half my farms vanished JUST as I was connecting to them) but I don't think I can expand without a factory to diliver to
15:30<Nat_AS>and the only factory is on an ISLAND
15:31<@Alberth>you can transport passengers and mail :)
15:31<Rhamphoryncus>woops! Went afk while testing my timetabling fix and my town of 1000 grew to 7500 :D
15:31*andythenorth embarks on insane project
15:31<Nat_AS>seriously, scenerio devs ought to include manual industries always
15:31*Alberth likes the insane project
15:31<Nat_AS>fuck, industries not vanishing ought to be a toggle
15:31<andythenorth>Alberth: you don't know what it is yet :P
15:32<Hirundo>procedural graphics generation?
15:32<Nat_AS>>Scenerio dev places industries in specific places for intresting gameplay
15:32<@Alberth>unfortunately, NewGRF is fully in control of industry closure, there is nothing the openttd program can do about it
15:32<Nat_AS>>Game decides to distroy industrys and place them in illogical places
15:32<@Alberth>andythenorth: <-- is my guess
15:33<@Alberth>no, newgrf industry decides, and the program just follows
15:33<andythenorth>Alberth: I invented a third method for that project
15:33<Nat_AS>hmm, is there a Grif that can make industries free?
15:33<@Alberth>the newgrf spec makes it impossible to have control from the program
15:34<@Alberth>no idea, but you are not able to add it to your running game :p
15:34<@Alberth>andythenorth: nice :)
15:34<Nat_AS>yes I can :P
15:34<Nat_AS>and I did
15:34<Nat_AS>(turn on scenario developer.)
15:35<Nat_AS>I sometimes swap out entire sets of newgrifs in the middle of the game
15:35<Nat_AS>however you can't do this if you have anything from the old grif in existance
15:35<Nat_AS>or it will crash I think
15:35<Nat_AS>but if you are carefull it can work.
15:35<V453000>sometimes it doesnt :)
15:36<@Alberth>things like vehicles are also part of the game data even if you cannot buy them yet
15:36<@Alberth>and industries that only 'exist' in the future :)
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15:39<@Alberth>moin mr W
15:41<Nat_AS>I can't find an oil car in the tropic set
15:41<@Alberth>Nat_AS: and "does not crash" is not the same as "works". Usually some data is corrupted that will not cause trouble until much later
15:42*Nat_AS shrugs
15:42<Nat_AS>who is in charge of the tropic refurbishment set?
15:42<@Alberth>that could be a consequence of your newgrf changes :p
15:43<Nat_AS>how? I have not messed with train newgrifs
15:43<Nat_AS>just industries
15:43<@Alberth>indstries define cargo
15:44<@Alberth>so unless you have trains that do not transport cargo......
15:45<@Alberth>better test it in a clean environment first before reporting anything
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15:46<Nat_AS>you might be right
15:47<Nat_AS>just make a new game with just the tropic set and no other newgrifs in the same date
15:47<@Alberth>in your mind you have a picture how it works, but your picture may be very wrong
15:47<Nat_AS>I guess so
15:50<@Alberth>it's normal behavior of the brain, and very hard to suppress as source
15:50<Nat_AS>editing the scenerio with the manual industry newgrif added at the same date also has the proper cars
15:50<Nat_AS>so it seems to be safe to add it then
15:51<@Alberth>you don't know, there are an awful lot of bits in a megabyte of data
15:51<Nat_AS>I guess this solves both problems
15:51<Nat_AS>restart from the begining
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15:53<Nat_AS>I learned a lot about station design from this map
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15:55<Nat_AS>and that it
15:55<Nat_AS>it's almost always easier to start with industry
15:55<Nat_AS>find a convenient one and use it to fund more complex ventures.
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15:56<Nat_AS>AND, always buy the train with the lowest running cost that is strong enough to move the cargo
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15:59*Alberth usually buys the train with the highest reliability
15:59<Nat_AS>also, trams are better than trucks
15:59<Nat_AS>well reliability is important too
15:59<@Alberth>I always forget to include a newgrf for them :)
16:00<andythenorth>hoho ho
16:00<Nat_AS>but it can be hard to earn a profit if your train with a million HP is eating all the income with it's maintnance bills.
16:00*andythenorth is nearly drawing trucks with code
16:00<Nat_AS>cargo trams are like trucks without pathfindingissues
16:00<@Alberth>I always play with the default set, which is not that expensive :)
16:00<Nat_AS>although articulated trucks are awesome
16:00<Nat_AS>esp the tractor ones.
16:00<@Rubidium>andythenorth: if only you could be coding with draw ;)
16:00<Nat_AS>they look so cool.
16:01<Nat_AS>Rubidium: I fucking wish
16:01<Nat_AS>I think artists would be better programers than programers if there was a programing language that could parse art into code.
16:01<@Alberth>andythenorth: using a visual programming language?
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16:02<Nat_AS>that way games with good art would also have good code
16:02<Zuu>Nat_AS: Trams in OpenTTD are however very prone to lockups if you have a tiny error in your tram tracks in city center where you can't easily resolve a track leading into a building.
16:02<Nat_AS>and visa versa
16:02<@Alberth>Nat_AS: that exists :)
16:02<Nat_AS>yes, but because you place the track yourself, you don't have to worry about truck pathfinding
16:03<@Rubidium>Alberth: I don't think labview is suitable for OpenTTD-ish things
16:03<Nat_AS>which seems to want to make right turns just because they can
16:03<@Alberth>Rubidium: that's not a visual programming language, it's just pretending to be one :)
16:04<andythenorth>Alberth: I used visual programming languages before. I hated them
16:04<andythenorth>I was...younger
16:04<Nat_AS>that's an inneficant programing language
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16:04<andythenorth>right now I'm just having 'adventures with PIL'
16:04<Nat_AS>that uses bitmaps instead of text strigs
16:04<@Rubidium>andythenorth: okay, then Visual Basic ;)
16:04<andythenorth>I never saw the benefit in visual programming
16:05<Nat_AS>suposed to be easier
16:05<andythenorth>it's like cooking soup underwater
16:05<Nat_AS>IDK though
16:05<@Rubidium>andythenorth: less typos for dyslexic people
16:05<@Alberth>never played with VB :)
16:05<@Rubidium>and more spaghetti
16:05<Nat_AS>ha nice metaphor.
16:05<@Alberth>I once saw a c++ program where you could draw a box, and it would compute the volume of it :p
16:05<Nat_AS>a GUI Newgrif complier would be nice to have
16:06<@Rubidium>I especially like the "example" labview code on the net... jpg
16:06<Nat_AS>feed it PNGs and type values into boxes,
16:06<Prof_Frink>VB is easier than V0.
16:06<Nat_AS>and it will churn out .grfs
16:06<Nat_AS>maybe even edit the sprites in the same program
16:06<@Alberth>Nat_AS: that's called grfmaker
16:06-!-Chris_Booth [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:06<Nat_AS>it exists?
16:07-!-Chris_Booth_ is now known as Chris_Booth
16:07<andythenorth>Nat_AS: like the BANDIT-building CMS I made?
16:07<andythenorth>it's only for me, due to security issues
16:07<@Alberth>I am told it does, it doesn't run at my system so I never tried it
16:08<Nat_AS>but a polished one,maybe even built into OTTD would be cool
16:08*andythenorth needs a palette with numbers on it
16:08<Nat_AS>or at least a standalone app that has the same style GUI
16:09<@Alberth>paint on it would be more useful perhaps :)
16:09<Nat_AS>the paint functonality would probably be for checking and adjusting alignment
16:10<Nat_AS>but you could also in theroy draw the whole thing in it if you really hate paint.
16:11<@Alberth>andythenorth: does this look ok? (not sure it is the right palette)
16:11<Nat_AS>it would have ISO lines and croshairs for alignment checking.
16:12<Nat_AS>a program for isometric pixel art would be nice to have period
16:12<andythenorth>Alberth: I'd have to check it matches the palette I have :)
16:12<andythenorth>I can actually just get PIL to print out ids
16:12<Nat_AS>with lines that snap to the exact 2:1 grid lines
16:12<Nat_AS>and easy layers
16:12<Nat_AS>most graphics programs with layers suck at pixel art
16:13<@Alberth>andythenorth: just make your own palette with numbers with PIL :)
16:13<Nat_AS>and MS paint only has one layer (why it does not have that basic feature even today baffles me)
16:14<@Alberth>layers is not a basic feature for the average win* user
16:14<Nat_AS>Hurrrr M$
16:16<Nat_AS>right now I sometimes play aroundin SAI, but that is in no way for pixel art
16:16<Nat_AS>or anything that's not freehand painting
16:16<Nat_AS>it does not even have rulers
16:16<Nat_AS>I'd like to see a program that makes isometric grid rulers
16:17<@Rubidium>after all, paint is to write a letter ;)
16:17<@Rubidium>and word is to draw (vector-ish) images
16:17<Nat_AS>do people do that?
16:18<@Rubidium>you'd be amazed
16:19<@Rubidium>the preferred format for sending images by someone on my work is actually in an excel file
16:19<@Rubidium>(and sadly enough I'm serious about that)
16:19<Nat_AS>why not powerpoint
16:19<Nat_AS>bitches love powerpoint
16:19<andythenorth>Nat_AS: I just use photoshop
16:20<@Rubidium>Nat_AS: because powerpoint thinks for you and starts resizing the shit out of stuff
16:20<Nat_AS>photoshop is expensive, Gimp has an awquard GUI, and Sai is freehand only
16:20<@Rubidium>and then things aren't the same size between slides anymore and that annoys me
16:20<Nat_AS>and all of them are overkill for pixel art
16:21<Nat_AS>you have to turn a million things off just to get a single pixel instead of a brush
16:21*andythenorth has one bugbear about python: it refuses && for logical ANDY
16:21<andythenorth>logical ANDY?
16:21<andythenorth>logical AND :P
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16:22<@Rubidium>andythenorth: just run it through a preprocessor that replaces && with and
16:22<andythenorth>oic :P
16:22<andythenorth>or patch python?
16:23<@Rubidium>that'd be the easy way out
16:23<Nat_AS>why don't more scenerios start before 1950?
16:23<Nat_AS>that's like cutting out half the game
16:23<@Rubidium>I'd suggest writing a CPU in VHDL that catches that corner case in hardware and replaces it with the appropriate code ;)
16:23<CIA-1>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r23952 /trunk/ (11 files in 4 dirs): -Feature: [NewGRF] Customisable tunnel portals for rail types (sprites by Snail).
16:24<@Rubidium>because before 1950 many vehicle (types) are not necessarily available
16:24<Nat_AS>needs to be more legacy types
16:25<Nat_AS>well the grifs I play with do have shit like horsedrawn carrages
16:25<Nat_AS>I think when I restart my game, I'm gonna set the start date to 1900
16:26<supermop>want to draw sprites at work
16:26<Nat_AS>then when high tech maglev shit comes out, I will be able to afrord them
16:26<supermop>but coworkers are around so can't use the big imac with PS
16:26<@Rubidium>in theory you can set it to ~0, just takes a long time before you're finding any newgrf that supports vehicles for that era
16:26<supermop>and there is not ms paint type thing on this macbook
16:26<Nat_AS>New vehicle type, SLAVES
16:27<Nat_AS>no running cost
16:27<Nat_AS>but really slow
16:27<Nat_AS>too bad you can't make towns and industries change with time (can you?)
16:27<Nat_AS>I want to make an antiquity grif now.
16:28<Nat_AS>with slave carried litters, runners carrying mail, caravans for cargo
16:28<Nat_AS>maybe Spice and silk cargo types.
16:29*Alberth thought Spice was only available at Dune
16:30<Nat_AS>Frankensense and Mir
16:30<Nat_AS>also, Irakis map
16:30<Nat_AS>to replace toyland
16:31<@Alberth>but I like toyland!
16:31<Nat_AS>better idea to replace toyland is internet map type
16:31<Nat_AS>towns are socal networks
16:32<Nat_AS>cargos are Clicks, Likes, lulz, ect
16:32<Nat_AS>trains are based on memes
16:32*Nat_AS just wants to see a longcat express
16:32<@Terkhen>good luck drawing / coding that
16:32<andythenorth>V453000 ^
16:33<@Alberth>there was a tron-like idea recently where those would fit in very good imho
16:33<V453000>I already heard that from him andy dont worry :p
16:33<Nat_AS>Yeah, I'd imagine the map would look like tron
16:33<Nat_AS>and the tracks would be light beams
16:33<andythenorth>Alberth: '9' in my image is pink. whereas in my palette and yours it's grey :)
16:33<@Rubidium>tron is long gone
16:34*andythenorth may have to adventure in palettes
16:34<Nat_AS>OH, the trains would start out as tron style things in the 80s, but slowly morph into modern internet memes in the 2000s
16:34<Nat_AS>game cannot be played prior to the 70s-80s
16:35<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r23953 /trunk/src/town_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#5062]: When the population of a town changes the town view might even have to change size due to different cargo requirements.
16:35<@Alberth>you'd miss out all the disco colours !
16:35<Nat_AS>gotta go
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16:39<CIA-1>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r23954 /trunk/config.lib: -Fix (r23952): Update required grfcodec version.
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16:55*andythenorth basically draws the floor plan in construction colours. Each colour maps to a sequence of other colours, which are drawn in the y direction
16:56<Hirundo>next step: a floor plan generator? ;-)
16:56<andythenorth>I considered trying to do 3D transforms and things for each angle needed
16:57<andythenorth>but this way is easy. I just draw the plan for each angle + length needed ;)
16:57<andythenorth>tanker trailers will be...interesting
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16:59<supermop>draw the meridian of the tank, have it then draw down and up for you?
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17:10<dihedral>good evening
17:12<xiong>Is there any way at all for user to assign hotkeys?
17:14<andythenorth>supermop: good idea
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17:17<andythenorth>oh dear
17:17<andythenorth>where's frosch?
17:19<andythenorth>Rubidium: I have just worked out how to do the (quite simple joke) of encoding nfo in a bitmap then reading it with PIL
17:19<andythenorth>what I can't figure out is how to tie XML into this joke
17:19<valhallasw>andythenorth: import xmlrpclib
17:20<valhallasw>and create a SOAP web service
17:21<valhallasw>or maybe create enterprise integration with SAP! At least, I guess they use XML. Maybe they intermix it with COBOL?
17:21<andythenorth>I could arbitrarily limit the size of the input png
17:21<andythenorth>then force the use of XML to tie a stream of pngs together
17:22<andythenorth>that might be an amusing limitation
17:23<andythenorth>also I propose to encode using 4px squares (2x2), to make it 'easier' to draw
17:23<andythenorth>which will need error checking to see if all pixels in a square are same :D
17:23<andythenorth>when is April 1st this year?
17:24<valhallasw>in about 6 weeks
17:26<Mazur>I believe for a change they've put it directly after March 31st?
17:26<Mazur>I don't know why.
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17:30*andythenorth stops plotting april fool stupidity
17:30<andythenorth>procedural truck body drawing just kind of works
17:30*andythenorth hmm
17:31<andythenorth>lighting for different angles - would I use transforms, or just manually code different sequences?
17:33<andythenorth>eddi would know :P
17:37<supermop>just made an ad-hoc tyvek wallet
17:37<supermop>out of a used envelope
17:38<andythenorth>how handy
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17:40<supermop>my real wallet was quite worn and ratty and i havent been able to decide between buying a fancy new one or making one out of leather myself (would take more hours than the fancy one costs)
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17:41<supermop>and felt bad about throwing away the envelope as it was still in near new shape
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17:54*andythenorth -> bed
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18:28<@Terkhen>good night
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18:59<Nat_as>you guys
18:59<Nat_as>made me late for class
19:00<__ln__>nobody has classes at midnight
19:00<Nat_as>it's 4pm for me
19:00<Nat_as>and it was 1:30 when I had my class
19:01<Nat_as>man, "Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, ever | English only" are the best rules Ever
19:03<planetmaker>you'll laugh how often they're necessary to be pointed out ;-)
19:06<Nat_as>I believe you.
19:06<Nat_as>more than Believe the using MS paint to write letters
19:06<Nat_as>man, I have to start the WHOLE MAP AGGAIN
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19:13<Nat_as>am I the only one who always turns off "Towns can build roads"?
19:17<Nat_as>because fuck town
19:23<DabuYu>Nat_as: that means that towns don't grow otherwise, if you don't maintain it themselves?
19:23-!-Zuu [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:23<DabuYu>towns do should grow in a better way (like prefering square grids) than they do now :)
19:23<Nat_as>I build roads for them
19:23<Nat_as>around my stations
19:23<DabuYu>oh i sometimes do that too, but there's so many towns around the map
19:24<Nat_as>growing towns is like growing bonsai.
19:24<Nat_as>well only the towns connected to your network matter
19:24<DabuYu>of course
19:27<Nat_as>also depeding on the map, they are also the only ones that grow
19:31<Nat_as>I don't think perfect squares are important, but it should try to make some effort at forming city blocks
19:31<Nat_as>and not going crazy
19:31<Nat_as>maybe a list of acceptable shapes
19:32<Nat_as>roads should not be next to each other, and should also try to avoid gaps wider than 4x4 because then nothing will be built inside the hole
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20:39<Nat_as>hail lord pixall
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21:33<Nat_as>do stations have to be continuious for a tram to unload in it?
21:33<Nat_as>does it have to cover the entire lenght?
21:33<Nat_as>for the longer cargo trams
21:33<Nat_as>and long trucks in general I guess.
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22:51<DabuYu>Nat_as: late reply, but no, it's not necessary - but the unloading process goes faster when it's the right length (at least for trains it does)
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23:36<Nat_as>do prices of tunnels ever change?
23:36<Nat_as>like become cheaper?
23:36<Nat_as>as time progresses?
23:36<Nat_as>because I don't remember them this expensive.
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---Logclosed Thu Feb 16 00:00:50 2012