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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-02-17

---Logopened Fri Feb 17 00:00:51 2012
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03:12<dihedral>good morning
03:12<dihedral>Rubidium, thanks :-)
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04:11<appe>morning
04:21<@peter1138>anyone au fait with c#, threads and locking?
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05:30<planetmaker>ha, finally, the Bundespräsident resigned.
05:30<Eddi|zuHause>took him long enough...
05:30<planetmaker>yep. at least 6 weeks too long
05:31<planetmaker>oh, welcome back, Eddi|zuHause :-)
05:31<Eddi|zuHause>at least 2 full months...
05:31*MNIM congratulates Eddi|zuHause.
05:32<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: what for?
05:32<planetmaker>^
05:32<MNIM>well, for the loss of your bundesprasident. (excuse my lack of umlaut. not using US-int)
05:33<Eddi|zuHause>it's more planetmaker's president than mine :p
05:33<planetmaker>oh, he was never mine
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05:33<Eddi|zuHause>well, but he was from niedersachsen :p
05:34<planetmaker>Can't say I voted for him there either ;-)
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05:34<planetmaker>I kinda always had the impression that he plays in the Robert Koch liga
05:36<Eddi|zuHause>well, now that there are two pirates in the Bundesversammlung, there's a chance they will nominate Georg Schramm (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chBjNF9aBN8) :p
05:37<planetmaker>hehe
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05:38<andythenorth>mornink
05:39<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.wahlrecht.de/lexikon/bundesversammlung.html <- members of the "electorate council" of the president
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05:46<Eddi|zuHause>my estimate is that the government won't risk another "close" election and instead pushes for a "common" candidate over all "democratic" parties
05:47<Eddi|zuHause>by the numbers on that page, the government would only have a 2-4 vote (absolute) majority
05:47<Eddi|zuHause>and they had problems the last time with a ~40 vote majority
05:48<Eddi|zuHause>"democratic parties" is conservative code for "not the left" :p
05:50<planetmaker>nor the ultra-right
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05:50<Eddi|zuHause>yes. but there's a difference between 3 votes an 125 votes...
05:51<planetmaker>@calc 125/3
05:51<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 41.6666666667
05:51<planetmaker>about a factor of 42 :-P
05:53<TrueBrain>Pi = 3 = 2 = 1, so meh, its nothing
05:54<planetmaker>but only for small pi
05:56<Eddi|zuHause>well, you can make pi smaller by eating some
05:58<planetmaker>TrueBrain, the validity of the statement "1 = nothing" highly depends on the operation ;-)
05:58<TrueBrain>1 = nothing is just silly
05:58<TrueBrain>we are not in the business of making nothing :)
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06:29<Eddi|zuHause>the most obscure suggestion i heard today: "they should make sarkozy the german president, because merkel likes him so much, and his reelection in france is questionable" :p
06:34<MNIM>hahaha
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06:49<Eddi|zuHause>hm... operator priority/semantics: wth does a line like this do? Command & c = *current_cmds.top().cmd;
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07:20<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: Both operators . and () have the same higher precedence than operator *, and . () are left-to-right associative.
07:20<Eddi|zuHause>so * is applied at the end?
07:20<+michi_cc>If the compiler works according to the precedence rules, yes :)
07:22<+michi_cc>This is the same reason why you can't dereference a 'std::vector<struct A *>::iterator i' by doing *i->aa, but have to do (*i)->a.
07:23<Eddi|zuHause>sure. if you know the priorities, this is probably all very logical :)
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10:06<Ammler>someone able to use the 64bit linux nightlies?
10:10<Ammler>is it useful to count the time for password input for joining too?
10:14<dihedral>you want me to test?
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10:16<Ammler>I am on it right now :-)
10:16<dihedral>ok
10:17<Ammler>join ps and wait too long for pw input
10:17<Ammler>then the server crashes
10:17<Ammler>ah, you mean the 64bit binary?
10:17<Ammler>that would be neat, indeed
10:18<Ammler>hmm, this time, server stays up
10:18<Ammler>anyway, why is the input time also part of the joining time?
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10:28<krinn>hi
10:28<@Rubidium>Ammler: because there can only be so many conections, and it's pretty easy to write something that connects N times, goes through all the steps to get the request for the password and then nothing but starving the server
10:28<krinn>TrueBrain, i found my AI error, i've put the infos on the bugreport
10:29<krinn>it's a bad recursive call, the VM/openttd goes oom and crash
10:29<Rhamphoryncus>Rubidium: which you can do regardless
10:29<Rhamphoryncus>And given how tight the map download timeout is to begin with it'd make sense to at least have a separate timeout for password entry
10:30<@Rubidium>Rhamphoryncus: what makes you think they are related?
10:30<Ammler>well, we can rise the timeout
10:30<Rhamphoryncus>Rubidium: that was my impression. I could be wrong of course.
10:30<Ammler>Rubidium: they are just tested
10:31<Rhamphoryncus>And I've hit the password timeout because I checked the IRC channel for it after it asked me for the PW. It's obviously a very short timeout
10:31<@Rubidium>IIRC it's 30 seconds per password
10:34<dihedral>would it then not make sense to require passing the password in the join packet?
10:34<Ammler>ok, they aren't, but that changed somehow too the last year, right?
10:34<dihedral>it is alreayd known that the passwords (server and/or company) are needed
10:34<Ammler>and it isn't 30 secs
10:34<Rhamphoryncus>dihedral: indeed. The server could say "connection refused; password needed" and the client could behave to the user just the same as before
10:35<Ammler>I am sure, I had a lot more time to input the password before
10:35<dihedral>the client would behave the same way, just postponing sending the join packet until the user has entered both passwords
10:35<@Rubidium>Ammler: you had infinite time, which makes starving the server easy
10:36<@Rubidium>and someone actually did starve a server so it was more than time to do something about it
10:36<Ammler>so, if I get the input password mask nobody else was able to join that time?
10:36<@Rubidium>no, someone else can join
10:37<@Rubidium>*but* if I open 255 OpenTTDs and let them join and let them wait while I do not enter a password, then nobody can join
10:37<@Rubidium>as amount of players and such is checked *before* the password
10:37<dihedral>Ammler, enable per IP max connections in iptables :-P
10:38<@Rubidium>ofcourse I don't need to open OpenTTD for that, just need to write a small script that does that
10:38<Ammler>ah ok, well the crash at first time was something else, I wouldn't have rised this question without :-)
10:38<dihedral>and then xargs it ^^
10:38<FLHerne>Ammler: I have 64 bit Linux, what needs testing in the nightly?
10:39<Ammler>do you use the generic nightlies from openttd?
10:39<FLHerne>Not normally, but I can get them...
10:40<Ammler>yes, those do not work here, can you confirm? :-)
10:40<FLHerne>Will try
10:40<@Rubidium>Ammler: SDL 2?
10:40<krinn>you mean nightly linux openttd doesn't compile or run ?
10:40<Ammler>1.2.14
10:41<Ammler>krinn: no, the generic nightlies from openttd.org do not work here
10:41<Ammler>if I build self, I have working bins
10:41<dihedral>i can start the copy i just downloaded - 'does not work here' might have to be more detailed ;-)
10:42<krinn>Ammler, oh you mean the binaries so ?
10:42<Ammler>yes, how else do you get 64bit from openttd.org?
10:42<Ammler>what*
10:42<@Rubidium>it works for me
10:42<Ammler>:-P
10:43<krinn>well, openttd.org provide source, and you can build it 64bits, that's why i ask binaries ones or not
10:43<Ammler>well, it does not complain about mising lib or so like before
10:43<dihedral>krinn, the source is not 64bit ;-)
10:43<Ammler>krinn: yeah, sorry
10:44<@Rubidium>Ammler: I guess it's caused by some library that you updated locally
10:44<@Rubidium>no clue which one though
10:44<Ammler>bash: ./openttd: cannot execute binary file
10:44<@Rubidium>maybe freetype?
10:44<Ammler>that's the whole output
10:45<@Rubidium>and what does ldd and file say?
10:45<dihedral>strace ./openttd ?
10:45<krinn>chmod +x :)
10:45<FLHerne>Seems to work - starts, generates map, plays...
10:45<Ammler> not a dynamic executable
10:45<FLHerne>Kubuntu 11.10, x86_64
10:46<dihedral>Ammler, sure you got the 64bit version?
10:46<krinn>linux will also tell you that if you try running a 32bits binary with a 64bits kernel without 32bits support
10:46<Ammler>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1114/
10:46<dihedral>krinn, ubuntu will tell you that
10:47<Ammler>dihedral: the path does hopefully confirm that ;-)
10:48<Ammler>someone non ubuntu here?
10:48<krinn>me, but 32bits
10:48*Rubidium
10:48<FLHerne>Me, but PPC
10:48<dihedral>i am too
10:48<dihedral>fc currently
10:48<@Rubidium>are you really running a 64 bits operating system?
10:48<krinn>did you try "file openttd" ?
10:49<Ammler>Rubidium: :-D
10:49<dihedral>Rubidium, hihi
10:49<Ammler>he
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10:50<dihedral>:-O
10:50<dihedral>Ammler!
10:50<dihedral>i hope not!
10:50<Ammler>installing SDL-devel and try to build
10:50<Ammler>this is a very young system :-)
10:50<dihedral>Ammler, uname -a?
10:51<Ammler>but yes, it is 64bit
10:51<Ammler>hmm
10:51<Ammler>maybe not
10:51<krinn>just do file openttd it will tell you the loader need on it
10:51<Ammler>could it be, I used the wrong suse image last time I installed :-D
10:51<krinn>openttd: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.18, BuildID[sha1]=0x5a963baca627e5e01417294914812963f32a8266, stripped
10:51<krinn> (that's the 1.1.5 amd build) i don't know where u get the nightly
10:52<Ammler>omg
10:52<dihedral>lol
10:52<Ammler>let us come back to the password timeout issue :-P
10:53<krinn>:)
10:53<dihedral>Ammler: you are more amusing than my worst clients :-P
10:53<dihedral>i do not believe this :-P
10:54<Ammler>well, when do you check arch of a installed system, when you are used to use 64bit there?
10:54<dihedral>is it YOUR computer?
10:54<FLHerne>What is the password timeout issue? If I know, I can come back to it :-)
10:54<Ammler>ah, let us speak about timeout
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10:54<dihedral>lol
10:55<Ammler>this 64bit issue was just because I wanted to test the timeout
10:55*Rubidium times out
10:56<Ammler>hmm, I might just stay with 32bit, should not hurt
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10:56<Ammler>oh, it does, memory is gone too :-)
10:57<krinn>enable pae
10:57<dihedral>reinstall :-P
10:57<Ammler>what a stupid idea it was to install from that live image
10:57<dihedral>:-D
10:57<Ammler>seems like it just copied the content
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11:06*andythenorth ponders procedurally generating stuff
11:07<andythenorth>like the work I'm supposed to be doing
11:07<andythenorth>for i in day.hours(): do_stuff
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12:18<@Terkhen>hello
12:21<andythenorth>hola Terkhen
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13:38<Matulla>hi all what happens in a city when i press generate new homes
13:38<Matulla>can i press this more then once a year
13:38<@Alberth>in the SE ?
13:39<Matulla>in desert
13:39<@Alberth>SE = the scenario editor
13:39<Matulla>no in the running game
13:39<Eddi|zuHause>Matulla: it speeds up city growth and ignores the water/food requirement for some time
13:39<Eddi|zuHause>Matulla: it is usually not helpful to do this more than once
13:40<@Alberth>it's a good way to spend your money :p
13:40<Matulla>ok thanks
13:40<Matulla>i got now money enoph after 30 game years
13:40<Eddi|zuHause>Matulla: you can usually see when the effect wears off when the pavements change
13:41<Eddi|zuHause>they should have railways in widelands... :p
13:41<Matulla>i never saw a pavements yet i need to zoom in
13:42<Matulla>sometimes there are post appearing if i press advertise
13:43<Matulla>is there more effect at transportation higher then 90%
13:44<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: trains moving back and forth :)
13:44<Matulla>or the same as 80
13:44<@Alberth>Matulla: there is a wiki page about such stuff: http://wiki.openttd.org/Game_mechanics
13:45<Eddi|zuHause>Matulla: station rating of 90% means you get 90% of the cargo produced nearby
13:45<Matulla>and is this a bug when the message comes up production down at a 91% deliver rate
13:45<Matulla>Eddi|zuHause: not the station rate the plant rate
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r23961 /trunk/src/lang/ (8 files): (log message trimmed)
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: belarusian - 6 changes by KorneySan, Wowanxm
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: catalan - 16 changes by arnau
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: croatian - 6 changes by VoyagerOne
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: dutch - 2 changes by Parody
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: finnish - 1 changes by jpx_
13:48<Matulla>is this a must to get a company town
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13:49<Eddi|zuHause>a what?
13:49<Matulla>the place where the company is homed
13:50<Eddi|zuHause>you can build that from your company window
13:50<Eddi|zuHause>click the face icon in the menu bar
13:50<Matulla>do i need to put this on i know that there is somthing but i never did that
13:50<Eddi|zuHause>you don't need one
13:50<Matulla>ok
13:50<Eddi|zuHause>it just looks pretty, and produces some passengers
13:54<@Alberth>hmm, it is not even used in the town rating :)
13:54<Matulla>bribe O.o
13:55<Matulla>Thanks i will fil up all the tiles (almost) of my map
13:56<Matulla>last question can a bigger airport only be build on the smaler one place
13:56<Matulla>with same station name
13:56<@Alberth>size has nothing to do with it
13:58<@Alberth>it needs to be "close enough" to the old station, that's all
13:58<Matulla>i tryed to get a bigger one on the othe end of the town by removing the smaler on e and it did not work maybe thrue to not enoph points to the town athoryty
13:58<Matulla>it gave me a other station name and now i trevel by train to the airport
13:59<@Alberth>'the other end of the town' sounds too far away
13:59<Matulla>no 6 tiles
14:00<Matulla>ok no factor just a guess
14:00<@Alberth>the old station name gets lost if you wait too long with building a new station
14:00<Matulla>if you got planes in the air you cant wait to long
14:01<@Alberth>yeah, it's always a lot of stress to get the airport replaced
14:01<Matulla>thanks
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14:13<@Alberth>woow, 130M for widelands :)
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14:15<andythenorth>efening
14:15<@Alberth>hi andy
14:18*andythenorth unusually agrees 100% with oberhumer
14:18<andythenorth>but nvm
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14:26<andythenorth>the answer is not on FB or BBC news
14:26<andythenorth>is there more internets I should look on?
14:33<@Alberth>depends on the question
14:34<andythenorth>'entertain me?'
14:34<andythenorth>:P
14:34-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fc519.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd
14:34<andythenorth>quak quak quak
14:35<frosch123>moin :)
14:35<andythenorth>hmm
14:35<@Alberth>oh, download a random game, and try to figure out how to play it
14:35<andythenorth>I should have made that procedural
14:35<@Alberth>hi frosch123
14:35<andythenorth>{ 'frosch123' : ['quak','quak','quak']}
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14:36<Linnefer>heya
14:36<@Alberth>hi
14:36<Zuu>Hello
14:36<Linnefer>I have a question concerning instalation of openTTD without TTD
14:37<@Alberth>it works
14:37<Linnefer>where do the open gfx etc belong?
14:37<frosch123>check the readme
14:37<frosch123>depends on your os and the version of ottd
14:37<frosch123>the readme is linked on the download page
14:37<@Alberth>http://vcs.openttd.org/svn/browser/trunk/readme.txt#L163
14:37<Linnefer>windows...
14:37<@Alberth>I had it book marked :)
14:38<frosch123>^^ that's for 1.2.0 only
14:38<@Alberth>hmm, good point
14:38<frosch123>1.1 has a different location
14:38<Linnefer>I have 1.1.5if I read that right
14:39<frosch123>then you need to put it into the "data" folder instead of the "baseset" folder (compared to 1.2)
14:39<@Alberth>http://vcs.openttd.org/svn/browser/tags/1.1.0/readme.txt#L162 yes, it's one line up :)
14:40<Linnefer>just all the open gfx/music/sounds to that?
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14:40<@Alberth>moin Wolf01
14:40<Wolf01>hello
14:42<Linnefer>ok, thanks!
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15:19<Zuu>The title game vote is hard this year. Many good contributions.
15:22<@planetmaker>agreed. I'm quite happy about that
15:22<@planetmaker>but I haven't made up my mind so far either
15:23<Zuu>I have made my list of 3 now but have changed their order a few times.
15:23<Zuu>You are brave that take votes by user names and not entry numbers.
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15:33<frosch123>did fred submit this year?
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15:43<andythenorth>procedural with load sprites ;) http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=155873
15:44<@Alberth>dict(('andythenorth' : 'the approach works out very nicely, I must say'.split()))
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15:45<@Alberth>hmm, s/:/,/ of course :(
15:45<andythenorth>it's quite simple so far
15:45<andythenorth>I could add more detail to lighting / shading with almost no work
15:45<@Alberth>yeah, quite surprisingly
15:45<andythenorth>what's interesting is whether I need more floor plans for different truck types
15:45<andythenorth>might be simplest
15:46<@Alberth>I was wondering whether you'd need a line drawing routine, but apparently not
15:48<@Rubidium>frosch123: doesn't seem like he did :(
15:50<frosch123>i wonder whether someone resubmitted a save from the previous years .p
15:52<@Alberth>look at the game logs :)
15:52<Eddi|zuHause>the images from the previous years are archived?
15:54<@Rubidium>yes, though not further back that 1.0 :(
15:56<@Rubidium>is SCO still not bankrupt? :(
15:56<andythenorth>Alberth: it's a dumb sort of line routine
15:56<andythenorth>:)
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15:58<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: we didn't have title game contests before 1.0
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16:08<andythenorth>Alberth: if you're looking for a project, I still have to figure out how to render each set of angles, then write them out to the correct location in a new file ;)
16:09<andythenorth>1 input file = lots of rows of sprites for different load states, body styles
16:10<Eddi|zuHause>there's not much point of a generator if you have to input the same number of images that you get out
16:13<andythenorth>+1
16:13<andythenorth>that would be more of a transformer :P
16:14<andythenorth>it's akin to building ikea furniture from a flat pack :P
16:14<@Terkhen>why do you need an image generator?
16:14<@Alberth>that's a negative generator, if all goes well. It goes from many to 1 piece :)
16:14<@Alberth>Terkhen: people are lazy :)
16:15<@Terkhen>I reckon that the effort that the generator would take would be better spent in creating images
16:15<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: the idea was "truck trailers mostly look alike, just have different length"
16:15<andythenorth>Terkhen: would you like to draw for BANDIT? :)
16:15<@Terkhen>nope, as I usually say, I couldn't draw to save my life
16:16<andythenorth>you can draw these trailers
16:16<andythenorth>they're just a regular pattern, with tweaks for lighting
16:16<andythenorth>I considered paying someone on amazon turk to do it :P
16:17<@Alberth>what's this "render each set of angles, then write them out to the correct location in a new file" ?
16:18<@Alberth>don't you do that already?
16:19<andythenorth>I render out one result at the moment
16:19<andythenorth>i.e. one row
16:19<andythenorth>the load sprites I posted are copy-paste after tweaking a value :P
16:19<andythenorth>which might be as effective as any other route, time-wise :P
16:20<@Alberth>you're cheating! :p
16:20<andythenorth>current code is here: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1116/
16:20<andythenorth>moving pixels around with PIL isn't hard by the looks of it, I just need to read the docs
16:20<andythenorth>I think my code might benefit from review btw ;)
16:21<Eddi|zuHause>why do you need multiple rows in a file?
16:21<Eddi|zuHause>can just as well have multiple files
16:22<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: good point
16:22<andythenorth>naming conventions ftw....
16:22<andythenorth>is there any compile time overhead to opening more pngs?
16:23<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: btw whilst you were on...holiday....I switched bandit compile to nmlc -> nfo -> grfcodec
16:23<andythenorth>compiles in ~50% of the time compared to nmlc -> grf
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>yes
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>same thing i did
16:23<andythenorth>I also wrote a (dev only) shell script to build, skippinyg all dep checks
16:23<andythenorth>which is faster
16:24<andythenorth>I'm not ditching the makefile though
16:24<andythenorth>I also started curling the bandit config from my website, which is....slow
16:25<@Alberth>nml is slow in the graphics conversion, isn't it?
16:25<andythenorth>I don't know how to profile, but that seems a fair bet
16:25<@Alberth>I was wondering whether you could cache that
16:25<Eddi|zuHause>nml is slow - period
16:25<@Terkhen>andythenorth: "time make" worked for me
16:25<@Terkhen>but yeah, nml is slower
16:26<@Alberth>Terkhen: 'profile' is about finding out what part is slow :)
16:26<@Terkhen>oh, that
16:26<@Terkhen>:P
16:27<@Terkhen>maybe it is the "working with a language instead of with a bunch of bytes" part
16:27<andythenorth>I could patch nml src to print out elapsed times
16:27<andythenorth>if I understand the pipeline better....
16:27<andythenorth>but you don't want me doing that, I make wrong conclusions too often
16:27<@Terkhen>python must have some gprof equivalent
16:27<@Alberth>it has
16:28<Eddi|zuHause>i had the command a few weeks ago...
16:28<andythenorth>for BANDIT and FIRS the times are ok
16:28<andythenorth>for CETS...not
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16:31<andythenorth>cProfile?
16:31<andythenorth>http://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonSpeed/PerformanceTips
16:31*andythenorth wonders what's slow
16:32<Eddi|zuHause>"python -m cProfile -s time ../nml/nmlc -o cets.nfo cets.nml > profile2.txt"
16:32<Eddi|zuHause>www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/profile_time.txt
16:32<Eddi|zuHause>www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/profile_time.txt
16:32<Eddi|zuHause>www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/profile_cumulative.txt
16:32*andythenorth wonders if it's the kind of slowness that's amenable to cython or such
16:32<Eddi|zuHause>the latter with "-s cumulative"
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16:34<Rhamphoryncus>ergh, reduce?
16:35<Rhamphoryncus>reduce is almost always wrong
16:36<andythenorth>reduce as in map:reduce?
16:36<Rhamphoryncus>yes
16:36<Rhamphoryncus>I should clarify: in python reduce is almost always wrong
16:36<andythenorth>distributing tasks to worker threads?
16:37<Rhamphoryncus>no, the reduce() builtin
16:37<Eddi|zuHause>you're probably thinking something completely different
16:37*andythenorth thinks so too
16:37<Rhamphoryncus>Can't tell just from the profile output
16:39<Eddi|zuHause>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nml/repository/entry/nml/expression/binop.py <- code
16:39<Rhamphoryncus>thanks
16:40<Rhamphoryncus>So it's a method with the same name as a builtin. Nope, I no longer feel like I was wrong. It's poor style that's to blame for my mistake.
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>didn't even know there's a "reduce" builtin
16:41<Rhamphoryncus>It's taken out of the builtin namespace in python3
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16:42<Rhamphoryncus>The thing about reduce is that, except for certain cases, the runtime is quadratic
16:42<Eddi|zuHause>ah, so reduce is actually fold...
16:45<@Alberth>andythenorth: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1117/ ?
16:45<Rhamphoryncus>looks like reduce is just a recursive evaluator?
16:47<@Alberth>or simplifier, I think
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16:48<Eddi|zuHause>Rhamphoryncus: not all values of the expression are actually constants, so "evaluation" is probably the wrong word
16:48<Rhamphoryncus>partial evaluation?
16:49<Rhamphoryncus>Or are they variables that it retrieves the current value from?
16:49<andythenorth>Alberth: I wondered if I could knock out some of the structures
16:49<andythenorth>seems a bit over-complicated right now
16:49<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23962 /trunk/src/3rdparty/squirrel/squirrel/sqvm.h: -Fix [FS#5068]: [Script] Infinite recursion within a script wasn't caught properly, so they could cause crashes of OpenTTD instead of the AI
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16:50<@Alberth>andythenorth: you seem to like disctionaries a lot
16:50<Rhamphoryncus>sets are the new dictionaries ;)
16:50<andythenorth>I prefer explicitly named values
16:51<andythenorth>I don't like code that's some_list[27]
16:51<andythenorth>or whatever :)
16:51<andythenorth>l49-50 is much better
16:51<andythenorth>as is l37-38
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16:52<andythenorth>thanks :)
16:53<@Alberth>except it's some_tuple[..] :)
16:54<Eddi|zuHause>Rhamphoryncus: expressions are trees, reduce transforms one expression-tree into a (potentially smaller) expression-tree
16:55<Rhamphoryncus>If it's a tuple then take a look at namedtuple
16:55<@Alberth>I found your sequences quite interesting: bulk_load_1 = ([(0, 2), 4],) I'd write bulk_load_1 = [((0, 2), 4)]
16:55<andythenorth>it's a naughty design choice - I just wanted the nested brackets to be easy to see :P
16:55<@Alberth>Rhamphoryncus: I was wondering about those too, but I couldn't pinpoint the name
16:55<Rhamphoryncus>Eddi|zuHause: still sounds like evaluation
16:56<Rhamphoryncus>reducing the tree.. by evaluating it.
16:56<andythenorth>alberth in the sequences - I wondered if I needed to do (x,y) as a tuple at all
16:56<Eddi|zuHause>Rhamphoryncus: like it will reduce "1+3" to 4, but "1+a" will stay "1+a" if a is not a compile-time constant
16:56<Rhamphoryncus>that in particular is constant folding
16:57<Eddi|zuHause>yes.
16:57<Rhamphoryncus>and constant propagation
16:57<andythenorth>hmm namedTuple - fields accessible by name
16:57<@Alberth>it's not strictly needed, and here you don't gain much, except keeping coordinates more separate from the colour.
16:57<andythenorth>I nearly wrote a stubby object to do that
16:57<andythenorth>seemed like over-engineering at this stage
16:58<Rhamphoryncus>namedtuple is basically for trivial classes
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16:58<@Alberth>I like the (x,y) pairs
16:59<Rhamphoryncus>(x,y) is usually too trivial even for namedtuple. Usually.
16:59*andythenorth will stick with named pairs
16:59<Eddi|zuHause>Rhamphoryncus: it also does some optimizations like preparing the expression for the shift/mask fields of nfo
16:59<Rhamphoryncus>For graphics rendering it could easily grow a set of helper methods that put it beyond namedtuple
16:59<andythenorth>Alberth: do you have a paste of the code? I can't get it to apply as a diff....
17:01<@Alberth>I didn't, but I created one :) http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1118/
17:02<@Alberth>if colour != 255 and colour != 0 and colour != 15: if colour not in (0, 15, 255):
17:02<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.istgeorgschrammschonimamt.de/
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17:03<andythenorth>Alberth: :D http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/2460/ho.png
17:03<andythenorth>I can probably figure it out though
17:03<andythenorth>might just be upside down
17:04<andythenorth>Alberth: -dy ;)
17:04<Rhamphoryncus>Eddi|zuHause: at least a translation would help
17:05<andythenorth>fixed
17:05<@Alberth>ok :)
17:05<andythenorth>now a ridiculously short amount of code considering what the results are :)
17:06<@Alberth>that's good; long python code is either very complex or it is wrong :)
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the beauty of (code) generators: they're usually very short
17:06<@Alberth>lol :)
17:07<@Alberth>at work I am writing one, and I counted 10700 lines of Java today, and it's not even working yet :)
17:07<@Alberth>oh, excuding the language definition classes, as they are generated by EMF :)
17:07<Eddi|zuHause>Rhamphoryncus: it's probably useless to simply translate this, if you don't get the context :)
17:08<andythenorth>Alberth my biggest puzzle is how to write the configuration files
17:08<andythenorth>or just put them inline
17:08<andythenorth>this is just one trailer type
17:08<andythenorth>I need about 5, plus recolor options
17:09<Rhamphoryncus>andythenorth: start with inline. Add a config file later only if you need it
17:09<andythenorth>I've had it rigorously drummed into me to separate code and content :P
17:09<Rhamphoryncus>But.. it'd help if your config is a single object passed around, rather than a series of globals inspected all over the place
17:09<Rhamphoryncus>Separate them structurally but leave them in the same file
17:10<@Alberth>make a config class?
17:10<@Alberth>or a dict
17:10<andythenorth>then instance it?
17:10<andythenorth>Alberth: didn't you just murder my dicts :D
17:10<andythenorth>?
17:10<Eddi|zuHause>make a dict
17:11<Eddi|zuHause>that's what i usually do
17:11<@Alberth>andythenorth: dicts of 2-3 entries :p
17:11<Rhamphoryncus>instance it, yes. Do *not* use singletons for state. They're stupid, nonsensical things :P
17:11<@Alberth>used at one place :)
17:12<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: read them from the tracking table
17:12<@Alberth>well, I am off to bed; everybody have a safe flight home, and see you all tomorrow somewhen hopefully
17:12<andythenorth>Alberth: thanks ;)
17:12<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: that might be a nightmare :o
17:12<andythenorth>I did consider drawing them into a png
17:12<andythenorth>then having PIL just read them :P
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17:14*andythenorth favours passing a dict around maybe
17:14<andythenorth>or...instance objects, and call the render method directly on the object
17:14<andythenorth>might be better
17:14<andythenorth>then I can stick objects in a list, render all, writing each one to a png
17:14<andythenorth>tidy tidy tidy
17:15<andythenorth>Elukka: you keeping up with this? :)
17:15<andythenorth>you might seriously consider generated sprites for regular-shaped wagons / coaches
17:16<Elukka>i'm following, whatever i can understand :P
17:16<Elukka>i would seriously consider anything that might make it easier
17:16<andythenorth>I made a test coach yesterday, it was ~10 mins work http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/2456/a_test_trailer.png
17:16<andythenorth>it's not great yet
17:16<andythenorth>but it might get you primitives that are easy to then improve
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17:20<andythenorth>Rhamphoryncus: so I'd want to init objects with stuff like this: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1119/
17:20<andythenorth>good way to do that?
17:20<andythenorth>passing it all in from the constructor call seems ugly
17:20<Rhamphoryncus>You want a similar syntax?
17:20<andythenorth>needs to be easy to read/write is all ;)
17:20<andythenorth>(the data does need to be different per instance)
17:21<andythenorth>I don't like this syntax tbh:
17:21<andythenorth>body_outer = ([(0, 0), body_colour], [(0, 1), cc_colour], [(0, 2), body_colour], [(0, 3), body_colour], [(0, 4), 13])
17:21<andythenorth>it's clunky
17:21<Elukka>andy, cool
17:21<Elukka>is it possible to make more angles with it?
17:21<andythenorth>absolutely
17:22<andythenorth>Elukka: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=995982#p995982
17:22<Rhamphoryncus>Is it always (int, int), constant?
17:23<Elukka>i mean as in the myriad extra angles of CETS :D
17:23<andythenorth>Rhamphoryncus: (int, int), constant or (int, int), int
17:23<andythenorth>the constants can be local to the object instance
17:23<andythenorth>Elukka: it can do any angles you draw a floor plan for
17:23<andythenorth>there is *no* clever maths
17:23<Elukka>sweet
17:24<Rhamphoryncus>ah. Hrm. Well, I will say this is a hard thing to do well.
17:24<andythenorth>elukka when it finds a pixel of colour n, it draws more pixels offset by (some values)
17:24<andythenorth>and whatever colour(s) you want
17:24<andythenorth>I did try randomising pixel colours from a list to add variety, but it sucked
17:24<Rhamphoryncus>You could replace [(0, 0), body_colour] with P(0, 0, body_colour)
17:25<andythenorth>Rhamphoryncus: I could pass a dict to the object
17:25<Rhamphoryncus>huh?
17:25<andythenorth>but then I don't gain much from the object
17:25<andythenorth>:P
17:25<andythenorth>the hardest part of this is the human-> code interface :)
17:26<Rhamphoryncus>P(0, 0, body_colour) reduces the parenthesis/etc, which makes it less noisy
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17:27<Rhamphoryncus>body_outer = [P(0, 0, body_colour), P(0, 1, cc_colour), P(0, 2, body_colour), P(0, 3, body_colour), P(0, 4, 13)]
17:27<Rhamphoryncus>A list is more appropriate (that's homogenous data, not heterogeneous) and is a different character from P()
17:28<andythenorth>the P thing is good for readability
17:28<andythenorth>although it would have tripped me up if this was someone else's code ;)
17:29<Rhamphoryncus>You could also replace body_colour and cc_colour with BODY and CC. Perhaps even make them singletons (the constant sort!) that are replaced with the configured value later
17:30<andythenorth>so I make a singleton by...?
17:31<andythenorth>singletons are unique in which namespace(s)?
17:31*andythenorth asks dumb newbie questions
17:31<Rhamphoryncus>A "global" in python is just an attribute of that module. Exact same as everything else in that module.
17:31<andythenorth>k
17:32<Rhamphoryncus>the easiest way here is "BODY = object()", then use "if x is BODY: x = ..."
17:34<andythenorth>Rhamphoryncus: any idea how to find docs on P for parentheses?
17:34<andythenorth>all I can find with google is regex stuff
17:35<Rhamphoryncus>umm, P isn't anything. It's just an arbitrary class name I picked :)
17:35<Rhamphoryncus>you could used namedtuple to create it
17:35<andythenorth>ah ha :)
17:35<andythenorth>I thought it was a built in trick
17:35<andythenorth>ok
17:45<andythenorth>ho
17:45<andythenorth>I could just write:
17:46<andythenorth>body_outer = 0,0,BODY,0,1,BODY,0,2,14,0,3,14,0,4,ROOF
17:46<andythenorth>not hugely readable :P
17:49<dihedral>Zuu, are you interested in creating a NoGo lib for the json communication with the admin port?
17:50<Zuu>My first though is why?
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17:50<andythenorth>Rhamphoryncus: this might be dumb, but can I import a module into an object's namespace?
17:50<Nat_as>Why are there no bidirectional path signals?
17:50<Rhamphoryncus>No, but you can import in a method. Just use "import foo" as normal
17:50<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> there is *no* clever maths <-- that's probably what's wrong with it :p
17:50<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: feel free to contribute :)
17:50<Zuu>And the second, what do you relly want to do?
17:51<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: procedural lighting, base on figuring out the angle....?
17:51<Zuu>Sorry if I sound negative.. :-)
17:51<Rhamphoryncus>importing a module in python is idempotent. The first time it gets stashed in sys.modules and every time after gets a reference to the same object
17:51<Rhamphoryncus>(unless there's a pathing issue and it imports as two separate modules.. which does happen occasionally..)
17:51<frosch123>night
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17:52<andythenorth>if I import a module that defines BODY, then later import another module that also defines BODY, will BODY be over-written?
17:52<Rhamphoryncus>No, they're separate
17:52<andythenorth>(that would be desirable in this case, usually not)
17:54<Rhamphoryncus>If you use "from foo import BODY" then you'll have a local variable to the same object as foo.BODY. Modifying that object will affect both (they're the same object), but if you reassign such as "BODY = BODY + 1" it'll only replace the local variable
17:54<Rhamphoryncus>I did suggest having BODY be a singleton. There'd be no reason to redefine it somewhere else.
17:54<andythenorth>it will need redefining per recolour ;)
17:55<andythenorth>but that's later....
17:55<Rhamphoryncus>Have P() do "if x is BODY: x = config.body_colour"
18:00*andythenorth needs to write def P: :P
18:02<+michi_cc>Nat_as: Because they don't make sense. A signal can't be a safe waiting point for two trains at once. What you might want instead is the configuration shown on http://wiki.openttd.org/Advanced_path_signal_layouts#Prioritised_single_track_layout
18:04<Nat_as>oh
18:04<Nat_as>I can place normal path signals facing inward in stations?
18:05<Nat_as>damn that makes my layout much better
18:05<Nat_as>I was using bidirectonal plain signals the whole time
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18:05<Nat_as>maybe now I wont get gridlock
18:06<Rhamphoryncus>def P: # :P fed
18:12<Nat_as>why do all these layout examples have xbox huge rail yards.
18:13<Nat_as>I don't like it when the junctions are more than twice as large as the stations.
18:13<Nat_as>also I never build single track
18:13<Nat_as>double or quad track Ro-ro drive through all day evrry day
18:15<andythenorth>Rhamphoryncus: I'm going to file this python under 'problem for tomorrow' ;)
18:15<Rhamphoryncus>heh
18:15<andythenorth>but I'll keep the suggestions in mind
18:15<Rhamphoryncus>Nat_as: volume :)
18:16<Rhamphoryncus>Also, many are from openttdcoop, which does nothing small
18:16<andythenorth>quite often I wake up with the answer to a code problem
18:16<Rhamphoryncus>Nat_as: got a specific example in mind? There might be another reason
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18:17<Nat_as>I just had a gridlock in one of my ro-ro stations that ended in a catistrophic crash when I tried to un-jam it
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18:20<Rhamphoryncus>I think we've all done that
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18:24<dihedral>Zuu: to unify the communication options between bots and NoGo scripts ;-)
18:25<dihedral>make a "standard"
18:25<dihedral>else each NoGo script will need it's own bot on the other end handling data (in case it should make use of the json part)
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18:27<Zuu>I haven't looked at the admin port before. Have you looked at the NoGo admin port API? It says something there about json. http://nogo.openttd.org/api/trunk/classGSAdmin.html
18:28<Zuu>And here is the event that a NoGo can listen to: http://nogo.openttd.org/api/trunk/classGSEventAdminPort.html
18:28<Nat_as>i wish signals existed at the boarders between tiles instead of on tiles
18:28<Zuu>It appears that the API doesn't parse the json string back to a table. That is probably the missing link in what you like to do.
18:28<Nat_as>would make layouts much simpler.
18:32<Zuu>dihedral: Or do you aim to also standardize some sort of protocol ontop of the json layer?
18:33<Xaroth>no need to make a protocol on top of that
18:34<Xaroth>1 bit is the descriptor of what you send, the rest is the data attached to that, done
18:34<Zuu>Hmm, actually GSEventAdminPort::GetObject might return a table or something else in usual Squirrel data types.
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18:57<Wolf01>'night
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19:27<Nat_as>is there a way to get trains to maintenance at any convenient depot
19:27<Nat_as>I like the mantance if needed button, but it's kind of awquard to have to specify depots
19:27<Nat_as>esp if you want them to each use diffrent ones to avoid congestion.
19:32<Rhamphoryncus>click the dropdown arrow and select maintain (or depot?)
19:32<Nat_as>where?
19:32<Nat_as>I know about the maintain/refit optin
19:33<Nat_as>but is there a way to tell it to just pick a depot by itself when needed?
19:33<Nat_as>like how it finds a depot when you give it a goto depot order
19:33<Nat_as>only by itself
19:33<Rhamphoryncus>hit the down triangle beside "go to", select "go to nearest depot", then highlight that order, then hit "maintain"
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19:34<@Terkhen>good night
19:34<Rhamphoryncus>Note that maintain means "maintain if needed" as opposed to always getting maintenance. The default for that order is always getting maintenance
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19:35<Rhamphoryncus>Also note that it picks a specific depot as soon as it starts the order, so if you have a lot of trains getting maintenance you should use a conditional order and joined waypoints instead
19:37<Nat_as>yes
19:37<Nat_as>I understand that
19:37<Nat_as>I want to to find a depot automaticly when it needs to maintain
19:38<Nat_as>instead of Checking every time it passes this depot
19:38<Rhamphoryncus>The default finds one when it needs one, but won't if there isn't one close by.. which is why it does that
19:39<Rhamphoryncus>What you can do is insert maintain-at orders after each stop
19:39<Nat_as>no nono
19:39<Nat_as>that's WHAT I DO NOW
19:39<Nat_as>I want an alternitive to that
19:39<Rhamphoryncus>I don't understand the problem then
19:39<Nat_as>because that means I have to click each depot at each stop
19:40<Nat_as>and even if I build two depots per stop, trains will still try to use the same one
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19:40<Nat_as>I want it to look for a depot itself
19:40<Rhamphoryncus><Rhamphoryncus> Also note that it picks a specific depot as soon as it starts the order, so if you have a lot of trains getting maintenance you should use a conditional order and joined waypoints instead
19:40<Rhamphoryncus>That's what I was referring to
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19:40<Nat_as>or possibly combine depots so it understands to pick the one that is clear.
19:40<Rhamphoryncus>load balancing of depots
19:41<Rhamphoryncus>You can't join depots but you can combine waypoints (ctrl-click when building)
19:41<Eddi|zuHause>use waypoints?
19:41<Eddi|zuHause>"if needs servicing, goto waypoint => goto nearest depot"
19:41<Rhamphoryncus>So what you do is have it go to the waypoint, but make sure the waypoints are balanced (combo signals or whatever), then each waypoint has a depot after it
19:42<Nat_as>huh?
19:42<Nat_as>what do waypoints have to do with depots?
19:42<Rhamphoryncus>You cannot join depots. You can join waypoints
19:43<Rhamphoryncus>Use the waypoints to split the trains on to different tracks, and have them only look for a depot after the waypoint
19:43<Nat_as>but you have to tell them to visit the depot
19:43<Nat_as>I don't want to have to click on a depot
19:44<Nat_as>if I wanted to manualy assign trains to depots I would just do that
19:44<Eddi|zuHause>no, you can tell them to visit "a" depot
19:44<Nat_as>how?
19:44<Nat_as>that's an option?
19:44<Nat_as>(this is what I was asking in the first place)
19:44<Eddi|zuHause>by choosnig "find nearest depot"
19:44<Rhamphoryncus>What's a good image dump? I'll put up an example
19:51-!-Illegal_Alien [~Illegal_A@77.163.150.18] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
19:55<Nat_as>Dropbox
19:56<Nat_as>http://db.tt/JRv6j59 if you sign up from this link we both get extra free space
19:56<Rhamphoryncus>hmm, yes, no. Signing up makes it a bad image dump.
19:56<Nat_as>it's really usefull though
19:56<Rhamphoryncus>Don't care. It's still bad.
19:56<Nat_as>I use it to host all my pictures and documents
19:57<Nat_as>no content or bandwidth restrictions. Free 2gb
19:57<Nat_as>sorry 4gb
19:57<Nat_as>and it syncs files between two computers
19:57<Nat_as>(or 3 in my case)
19:58<Rhamphoryncus>Still bad.
19:58<Rhamphoryncus>http://imgur.com/GKKVk
19:58<Nat_as>ohh
19:58<Nat_as>so many hidden menus
19:58<Rhamphoryncus>yes :(
19:59<Nat_as>it would be cool if there were more ways to sort trains in the buy list
19:59<Nat_as>like if there was a sub menu inside of running cost so you could sort by running cost and reliability
20:00<Nat_as>power/running cost is nice, but more bivariable sorts would be cool.
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20:14<Nat_as>which is better, building a short feeder line or extending the station catchment area?
20:17<Rhamphoryncus>Mechanically? Extending, 100%
20:17<Nat_as>http://dl.dropbox.com/u/24299180/Hamilton%20%26%20Co.%2C%2029th%20May%201987.png and is this a good idea to increase the amount of trains that can be loading/unloading at once, or an accident waiting to happen?
20:17<Rhamphoryncus>fun.. can go either way
20:18<Nat_as>I call it the super terminus.
20:18<Rhamphoryncus>A single passthrough? The amount that can enter/exit at any time will still be very limited
20:19<Rhamphoryncus>And.. if all 4 of the rear platforms are occupied then 1 train could block the access to them
20:19<Rhamphoryncus>Technically they might go through the forward platforms in that case. It's hard to tell though.
20:21<Nat_as>yes I could double the passthrough
20:21<Rhamphoryncus>If you really want to extend lengthwise like that I'd suggest disconnecting the front platforms so that pass-through is the only way, remove the inward signal so a train won't wait there, and stick a waypoint in for trains you expect to sit for a while
20:21<Nat_as>well this IS an unloading station
20:21<Nat_as>trains don't wait here long
20:21<Nat_as>unlike farm stations which typicaly have at least one train loading at all times
20:22<Rhamphoryncus>Also, be aware of why trains are sitting for a while. If they're loading goods then there's a potential for them to block the track in and not let the unload trains come
20:22<Nat_as>then I am limited to how many trains I dare let sit at the station
20:22<Nat_as>yeah
20:22<Rhamphoryncus>Pure unloading? Goods are picked up from trucks?
20:23<Nat_as>oh some goods
20:23<Nat_as>forgot that
20:23<Rhamphoryncus>heh
20:23<Nat_as>I don't have many goods/food cars though
20:23<Nat_as>just one or two cars mixed into other trains mostly
20:23<Rhamphoryncus>If you take out that signal and stick a waypoint there then the depot *might* act like an overflow
20:24<Nat_as>in the beginning i actually mixed them with passengers, and still do on some smaller lines
20:24<Nat_as>but now i have dedicated express trains
20:24<Rhamphoryncus>But also be aware that once a train enters the depot it will be able to path out to the front platforms, which it will happily do
20:25<Nat_as>I wish it was easier to mix cargos
20:25<Nat_as>I have to make a dedicated food boxcar at the end of a miaze train
20:26<Nat_as>I could set to refit, but that would mean a million tons of food getting shiped to some tiny farm town
20:26<Rhamphoryncus>If you really wanted it robust I'd remove the front unloading platforms and rebuild them as a separate station. Make sure that's *always* an unloading station.
20:26<Nat_as>no partal refet
20:26<Nat_as>or mixed cargo in cars.
20:26<Rhamphoryncus>Yeah, that's a pain
20:27<Nat_as> also aircraft can only cary one type of cargo at once
20:28<Rhamphoryncus>As for throughput on dropoff trains.. often it's the entry that's the limiting factor, and in particular the tendency to path across to a different platform and block any other train from entering/exiting at the same time
20:28<Rhamphoryncus>Which is why roro is popular. Minimum of 1 entry and 1 exit at a time
20:29<Nat_as>hmm i might be able to lower stress if I route my express trains to the oil refinery station (just of screen)
20:29<Rhamphoryncus>Mind you, that junction at the top right can't be terribly high throughput either
20:29<Nat_as>it's also the airport but has less passinger catchment
20:30<Nat_as>although that shouldn't be an issue since this is cargo dist
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---Logclosed Sat Feb 18 00:00:52 2012