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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-02-18

---Logopened Sat Feb 18 00:00:52 2012
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01:11*andythenorth hmms
01:11<andythenorth>also
01:11<andythenorth>morning
01:13<@Rubidium>'allo 'allo
01:14<andythenorth>is it really bad manners to include far too many pngs?
01:14<andythenorth>i.e. to do different coloured cargos in the spritesheet, instead of using recolour sprites?
01:15<@Rubidium>too many as in many many many, but mostly needed... or many many many, but onlya few needed
01:15<andythenorth>as in 'could be done with recolour sprites' :)
01:15<andythenorth>but recolour sprites don't interest me
01:16<andythenorth>having my pixel generator just write out another png in correct colour interests me
01:16<@Rubidium>that shouldn't be a big problem I'd say; after all recolour sprites add magic voodoo
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01:19<andythenorth>I was thinking about whoever pays the bandwidth :)
01:21<andythenorth>:o PIL is writing out insanely large png files
01:21<andythenorth>86KB on disk for one spritesheet
01:21<andythenorth>photoshop compresses it 2.2KB (4KB on disk due to minimum block size)
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01:22<andythenorth>with no loss and no removal of palette
01:25*andythenorth discovers PIL optimize=1 option
01:26<andythenorth>~5.4KB is PIL's best effort
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01:32<@Rubidium>but you'd generate the spritesheets during compilation, right? ;)
01:33<andythenorth>yup
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01:33<andythenorth>as needed
01:33<andythenorth>I could batch them through photoshop to reduce size
01:33<@Rubidium>but then it's not about bandwidth
01:33<andythenorth>Rubidium: do recolour sprites have performance implications for ottd?
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01:34<@Rubidium>I think they do
01:35<@Rubidium>although there might also be performance implications of many sprites when the spritecache fills, although with the current cache size that's not something that's very likely I think
01:35<andythenorth>it's probably swings / roundabouts
01:36<andythenorth>so filesize doesn't seem to be a concern for newgrfs afaik
01:36<andythenorth>and what I'm doing is no worse than many sets do anyway
01:36<andythenorth>e.g. HEQS I drew sprites for every supported bulk cargo type
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03:33<@Terkhen>good morning
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03:37<andythenorth>hola Terkhen
03:37<@Alberth>moin Terkhen, andythenorth
03:37<andythenorth>Alberth: moin
03:38<@Alberth>nice, more than two loading stages :)
03:38<andythenorth>yup
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03:38<andythenorth>but I have a design question :)
03:38*andythenorth just needs to make a commit
03:39<andythenorth>Alberth: I'm experimenting with moving the sequence definitions to separate files
03:39<andythenorth>one per vehicle type (gestalt)
03:39<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/bandit/repository/show/misc/test_pixel_generator
03:39<andythenorth>but I've also used an object to hold the sequence (suggested by Rhamorphycus)
03:40<andythenorth>this causes me a headache with imports
03:40<andythenorth>I'm certain there's a better way...
03:41<andythenorth>currently I would have to define this stubby P object in every gestalt file, which is silly
03:41<@Alberth>yeah, imports are not designed to be done temporary
03:42<andythenorth>I could move the config stuff to config files, but that seems inefficient for this case
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03:43<andythenorth>I could do without the stubby P object, but it seems nice in principle
03:44<@Alberth>say you have 2 gestalts, what do you want to do?
03:44<@Alberth>as in, what's the output?
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03:45<@Alberth>2 files?
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03:45*andythenorth ponders
03:45<@Alberth>or do you have say 3 vehicles of each gestalt?
03:45<andythenorth>so gestalts might be: tanker, tipper, flatbed
03:46<andythenorth>and I might generate one of each for 5/8, 6/8, 7/8, 8/8 long
03:46<andythenorth>(also loading states, but that's a detail)
03:46<andythenorth>and the final pngs might all just be single row, but that's also a detail
03:47<andythenorth>I should probably figure out a design before coding :
03:47<andythenorth>:o
03:47<andythenorth>but sometimes code tells me what the design wanted to be :)
03:48<@Alberth>one way is to import all and store the gestalts in a dict, so you can select it easily
03:48<andythenorth>ok
03:49<andythenorth>how might I define these stubby P objects in just one place, instead of in every gestalt file?
03:49<@Alberth>the disadvantage is that you have to keep a list of available gestalts, but if you don't add/remove them often, that's not a problem
03:49<andythenorth>that would be fine
03:49<andythenorth>I need the list anyway
03:49<@Alberth>define it separately, and import it in every gestalt file
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03:50<andythenorth>ok
03:50<andythenorth>that means I'd need to add to the module search path in every gestalt file?
03:51<andythenorth>or can they inherit from importing module?
03:51<@Alberth>just make a proper package
03:51*andythenorth is reading python docs on packages...
03:52<@Alberth>ie add an empty __init__.py in each sub-directory, and import from the root of the package
03:52<@Alberth>(and move the main script outside the package :p )
03:53<andythenorth>ah. that's why there are so many __init__.py files in the python projects I work on :)
03:53<@Alberth>often the main script is not much more than from package import main; main.run()
03:53<andythenorth>the package should be the gestalts? Or the gestalts + generator?
03:54*andythenorth -> toddler poo incident
03:54<andythenorth>brb
03:55<@Alberth>I'd make the pixel_test_generator top-level. The files in misc look like 'commands' rather than 'library functions'
03:56<@Alberth>basically, the script that you run should be in the same directory as the top-level package directory
03:56<@Alberth>that way you don't have to do magic with python paths
03:59<andythenorth>poo incident resolved
03:59<andythenorth>+1 on where top-level should be
04:00*andythenorth will now be reading more about packages
04:00*andythenorth ponders
04:01<andythenorth>might there be any noticeable difference between encoding lots of small pngs or few large pngs?
04:01<andythenorth>file I/O _might_ be a factor I'm thinking
04:01<andythenorth>for compile time
04:01<andythenorth>but maybe file I/O is insanely fast now?
04:02<@Alberth>most systems have a large disk-cache
04:02<@Alberth>if you have enough memory, that is. So from the 2nd time, you are basically working from memory
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04:02<@Alberth>I would expect pixel plotting to be more costly
04:03<andythenorth>I was wondering about nmlc / grfcodec times too
04:03<andythenorth>I don't mind if compiling all pngs is slow, it's an occasional task
04:03<andythenorth>and I could optimise it to only compile what's needed (with command line args or such)
04:04<@Alberth>yeah, but the profile showed it's actually expression reduction in nml that's slow rather than pushing pixels
04:04<andythenorth>profiling ftw :)
04:05<@Alberth>I normally make sure code scales nicely, and then stop worrying about performance
04:06<@Alberth>it is pretty impossible to guess what will cause problems, or even if you will ancounter them
04:06<@Alberth>*encounter
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04:07<@Alberth>you may want to make sure that you have a simple relation between input and output files, and be able to generate only a part
04:07<@Alberth>that way, you can use a Makefile easily
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04:32<andythenorth>python package appears to work now
04:32<andythenorth>quote from the tutorial I used: "have each and every script manually manipulate the PYTHONPATH so that
04:32<andythenorth>when the user calls that script, it adds its parent folder to the
04:32<andythenorth>PYTHONPATH before importing what it needs. Messy and ugly.
04:32<andythenorth>"
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04:42<SpComb>andythenorth: running your packages scripts while developing?
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04:49<andythenorth>kind of
04:50<andythenorth>not from the shell though
04:50<andythenorth>as module imports
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05:12<andythenorth>Alberth: a single input to this generator is (probably) a png file containing floor plan(s) of given length
05:12<andythenorth>and to build the entire set, I would pass a list of pngs somehow
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05:13<andythenorth>input pngs can be assumed to be in a single directory
05:14<andythenorth>I would need to know the length somehow, for file naming convention purposes
05:17<andythenorth>I have the config file for BANDIT....which contains this information
05:18<andythenorth>hmm...I'd prefer not to tightly couple the pixel generator and the build script
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05:24<@Alberth>one form could be to make a python file with the configuration data, then import some module from the package, and call mymoduke.doit(config_data)
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05:50<andythenorth>it might be better if the pixel generator knows almost nothing about filenames etc
05:51<andythenorth>and just takes the name of the input png, and appends the gestalt id to it
05:51<andythenorth>e.g. trailer_7_8.png becomes trailer_7_8_tanker.png trailer_7_8_flatbed.png etc
05:52<@Alberth>makes sense
05:52<andythenorth>so the generator is deliberately very stupid in that respect
05:52<andythenorth>I don't want config files with n-dimensional complexity :P
05:52<andythenorth>dimensions would be: vehicle id, gestalt, load sprites :P
05:53<andythenorth>also colour options :o
05:53<andythenorth>so maybe I have one config file for the generator, which sets the available gestalts and any variations they provide, like colour
05:54<andythenorth>and use the BANDIT config file to make calls to the generator on demand
05:54<@Alberth>you can also make a configuration class that understands the relations
05:54<andythenorth>any chance of an example? :)
05:54<@Alberth>not really :(
05:55<@Alberth>but then you could move the filename manipulation above out of the generator, for example
05:55<andythenorth>sounds like interfaces and adapters
05:55<andythenorth>mymodule.quak()
05:56<@Alberth>no doubt it is not a new problem :)
05:56<andythenorth>http://bluebream.zope.org/doc/1.0/manual/componentarchitecture.html
05:57<andythenorth>^ somewhat overkill :P
05:57<frosch123>you have module that supports quaking? nice :)
05:57<@Alberth>well, have fun with it, I have enough general frameworks at work already :p
05:58<andythenorth>I won't be using that. That's work
05:58<andythenorth>and other people do that bit
05:58<andythenorth>I do vaguely useless things, like write their paycheque once a month and tidy away the dangerous wires and things
05:58<andythenorth>frosch123: all python modules support quak() :P
05:59<andythenorth>it even handles the ambiguity between english quak (duck) and your quak (frog)
05:59<andythenorth>hmm
06:00<andythenorth>so the generator could just handle sequencing the sprites, and returning them as a bitmap in memory or such
06:00<andythenorth>something else could write them to disk
06:00<andythenorth>might be over-engineering at this stage?
06:01<frosch123>job offer: OpenTTD is looking for a restless warrior, who copies silly bug reports (like FS#5071) to known-bugs.txt. You will be able to gain a lot of insanity in this job.
06:01<andythenorth>curl url | regex > append to file?
06:01<MNIM>What else does it get you, besides insanity?
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06:02<frosch123>you can have unidirectional communcation with a lot of people
06:02<frosch123>maybe that feels better than communicating with /dev/null
06:05<@Alberth>andythenorth: doing one thing at the same time makes the software nicely modular and flexible
06:05<andythenorth>Alberth is that +1 or -1 in favour of separating pixel sequencing from file writing? :)
06:06<@Alberth>+1
06:06<andythenorth>k
06:07<andythenorth>what I need to do (I think) is open a config file, or pass a config class which: defines a list of output targets (filename), and for each output, which gestalt and options to use
06:07<andythenorth>options could be define within the gestalt perhaps
06:08<andythenorth>I think it makes more sense to specify desired output and how to achieve it
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06:08<andythenorth>rather than specify input and have lots of rules in the generator
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06:13<andythenorth>hmm
06:14<andythenorth>should the gestalts be in the generator package?
06:14<andythenorth>or should they be passed to it as objects?
06:16*andythenorth is hitting limits of coding ability :P
06:16<andythenorth>I am not a good architect of implementations :P
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06:19<SpComb>andythenorth: just hack at it until it works \o/
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06:19<andythenorth>hack at it until $someone else fixes it is my usual approach ;)
06:19<SpComb>but seriously, config files aren't really that great in Python
06:19<SpComb>stdlib just has ConfigParser and it smells
06:20<@Alberth>since the generator needs a gestalt object, you either pass a name or an object. In the former case it's easier to specify, in the latter case it is easier to make a custom gestalt
06:20<SpComb>andythenorth: but important to note re Python; `import` is strictly for code, never for data
06:20<andythenorth>SpComb: tell nml that ;)
06:20<andythenorth>I might want custom gestalts
06:21<andythenorth>also yes - importing the gestalts seems wrong
06:21<@Alberth>configuration object :)
06:21<andythenorth>hmm...I'll still end up importing gestalts from disk somewhere :o
06:21<Zuu>Hmm, noone has published a water body pathfinder as NoGo library.
06:22<@Alberth>that's not a problem imho, constants can be seen as code imho
06:22<@Alberth>Zuu: path finding at sea is very hard to do efficiently
06:23<Zuu>In this case Djikstras would be fine as I only want to check if the user has built a canal between two tiles or not.
06:23<@Alberth>lol :)
06:24<SpComb>andythenorth: one option is to have the gestalts import the common code
06:24<SpComb>works better that way
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06:24<andythenorth>ha yes
06:24<andythenorth>of course :)
06:24*andythenorth didn't think of that
06:25<Zuu>Alberth: not very hard to implement, was just hoping to save myself some work by using existing code. :-)
06:25<andythenorth>that would be much better
06:25<andythenorth>that's like providing each gestalt with a render() method
06:25<andythenorth>which also works much better when there is variation between the gestalts
06:26<andythenorth>so each gestalt is a first class object
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06:36*andythenorth ponders
06:36<andythenorth>I can chain imports so each gestalt only has to import one thing to get all the common stuff it needs?
06:36<andythenorth>or is that bad?
06:37<andythenorth>it's just importing a package right?
06:37<andythenorth>then the package imports all modules that are deps for the package?
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06:38<andythenorth>so (example), I might have a vehicle_generator package
06:39<andythenorth>which provides a utility for sequencing pixels, and a utility for compositing multiple images
06:39<andythenorth>and I can just import vehicle_generator package?
06:40<@Alberth>just import the single function that does 'it' ?
06:41<andythenorth>'it' might vary for each gestalt...
06:41<andythenorth>I think this is all fine
06:41*andythenorth will try coding it
06:41<@Alberth>you can also make a base class for gestalts that does 'it' in a general sense
06:41<@Alberth>and then make derived gestalt classes that do some things differently
06:41<andythenorth>yup
06:42<andythenorth>I think I just accidentally reinvented factory pattern :P
06:42<andythenorth>nvm
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06:57<Wolf01>hello
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07:13*andythenorth ponders procedurally generating buildings
07:14<andythenorth>not complex structures
07:14<andythenorth>but office blocks and such
07:14<andythenorth>OpenGFX renewal? :P
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07:23<@Rubidium>andythenorth: for grfcodec you get the best performance if they are in a single file, and they would be read strictly from top-to-bottom. If the 'next' sprite starts only a single pixel higher it needs to reread the whole file up to that location
07:25<@Rubidium>it might be that small/short sprite files are beneficial or nml as it seems to be (re)opening the image file every time
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07:27<andythenorth>Rubidium: thanks
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07:28<@Rubidium>maybe preventing reopening each time might give a significant performance boost for NML?
07:28<@Rubidium>(but I don't know what the time consuming part of NML is so this is pure speculation!)
07:29<@Alberth>(22:38:03) Eddi | zuHause: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/profile_cumulative.txt <-- profile of nml for CETS
07:30<@Alberth>it seems expression simplification eats lots of cpu seconds
07:30*Rubidium can't connect to that server
07:32*dihedral neither
07:32<@Alberth>http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/profile_cumulative.txt I could for some reason, perhaps the browser cached it?
07:33<Rhamphoryncus>nope, works for me too
07:33*MNIM blarghs at the lack of diagonal bridges.
07:34<MNIM>making a three-way station is hard when you want a minimal 90degree turn length of at least five.
07:34<Rhamphoryncus>MNIM: #178 on the things that suck list ;)
07:34<@Alberth>MNIM: only lay diagonal tracks :)
07:35<MNIM>Well, I can't do that. the station is located at the stem of a T-shaped intersection.
07:35<@Rubidium>Alberth: it seems to miss writing the GRF
07:36<MNIM>I could make it without bridges, of course, but Im trying to avoid the evil X-es.
07:37<@Rubidium>it spends 13 seconds in parsing the nml though
07:37<Rhamphoryncus>MNIM: the general trick is to put the turns in, then make have the straight track use bridges
07:37<MNIM>Well yeah, that
07:37<MNIM>*;s what Im trying.
07:38<MNIM>the trouble is that the only layout I can think of right now has two diagonals crossing each other.
07:38<MNIM>Hmmmh. I can compact the station lexit area a bit, perhaps that'll give me enough space for an arch avoiding this.
07:38<@Rubidium>and this profile might be somewhat ill ordered for determining the real time consuming code
07:40<@Rubidium>on the other hand, maybe it isn't the code that's slow but some algorithm that's chosen "incorrectly"
07:41<@Alberth>http://users.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/profile_time.txt does this one work?
07:41<@Rubidium>17 million base_expression inits seems a bit much to me
07:41<@Alberth>CETS is a bit insanely large :)
07:41<@Rubidium>can't connect to that one either
07:41<@Alberth> http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/profile_time.txt
07:41<@Rubidium>Alberth: it may be large, but... millions of constructor calls might be a bit too much
07:43<MNIM>Oh hey, would you look at that.
07:43<@Alberth>every expression node is an object, so have a million very soon
07:43<MNIM>I think Ive got one that works now.
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07:43<andythenorth>hmm
07:44<andythenorth>building generator would need to be procedural in two ways
07:44<andythenorth>pixel sequences would need nesting
07:45<@Rubidium>Alberth: am I safe to assume that a + b is three nodes?
07:45<@Alberth>yes
07:45<@Alberth>and perhaps even more, depending on how the position information is stored
07:45<@Rubidium>so cets.nml would be at least 16 MiB to have a+b+c+d+e.... to create enough nodes
07:46<@Alberth>iirc, it's a separate object, so you'd have 6 objects then
07:46<@Rubidium>okay, you might create nodes during reduction that replace others. So assume half of them are created... still at least 8 MiB cets.nml
07:47*MNIM pokes fileden.
07:47<@Alberth>every expression getting copied at least once would be a quite safe assumption
07:48<@Rubidium>looking at cets.nml there can't that many expressions
07:48<@Alberth>although they should be getting smaller, as nml tries to compute the constant value
07:49<@Alberth>I don't know what is happening inside nml in detail unfortunately
07:49<@Rubidium>175k lines with something possibly useful on them
07:50<@Alberth>doesn't sound very large
07:51<@Rubidium>and it doesn't look like there are on average more than 5 expression nodes
07:51<@Rubidium>and then I could misc_flags: 0;
07:51<@Rubidium>as two nodes
07:52<andythenorth>procedural building: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/2472/building.png
07:52<andythenorth>that's about 10 mins work max
07:52<@Alberth>probably 3 as well, as you need something to hold each case together
07:52<andythenorth>I'll add windows later
07:53<@Alberth>the people will appreciate that :)
07:53<@Rubidium>Alberth: my point is that I've got the feeling the number of expression nodes is off by an order of magnitude
07:55<@Rubidium>hmm
07:55<@Rubidium>it's even the init of ConstantNumeric
07:58<@Rubidium>there are ~800k digits in the file, so by reduction you can in theory create a single digit. Even then you'd be creating at most 800k intermediate nodes, which means 1.6M not 16M
07:58<@Alberth>everything is an expression afaik, even expressions reduced to a constant
07:58<@Rubidium> 16644431 20.191 0.000 33.590 0.000 base_expression.py:121(__init__)
07:59<@Rubidium>that means the init at line 121, right?
07:59<@Rubidium>that's the init of ConstantNumeric
07:59<@Alberth>or a derived class, but that may not exist
08:00<@Rubidium>I can't find a derived class
08:00<@Alberth>yeah, but something weird is going on, I agree
08:01<@Rubidium>i.e. a line with both class and ConstantNumeric that is not the definition of ConstantNumeric itself
08:02<@Alberth>constantnumeric doesn't sound like a useful baseclass either
08:02<@Rubidium>@calc 17288417 - 16644431
08:02<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: 643986
08:02<@Rubidium>so 650k non-ConstantNumeric Expressions
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08:06<@Alberth>'zoffset' : {'value': expression.ConstantNumeric(0), 'validator': self._validate_bounding_box}, <-- they are also used in constants
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08:18<andythenorth>ho
08:18*andythenorth has ideas
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08:26<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/2473/procedural_buildings.png
08:27<andythenorth>planetmaker: ^ opengfx renewal? :P
08:30<frosch123>can you also generate extra zoom graphics? :p
08:31<frosch123>well, zi4 to zo8
08:31<andythenorth>frosch123: can you scale 1 dimensional sequences?
08:31<andythenorth>you can figure out an interpolation rule for neighbouring pixels
08:32<andythenorth>based on contrast perhaps
08:32*andythenorth is no good at maths, but you should be able to transform these pixel sequences
08:32<andythenorth>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1121/
08:33<V453000>you sure it isnt better to just draw it? :D
08:34<andythenorth>frosch123: to get 4x zoom, for each point in list, copy into 4 points in a new list
08:35<andythenorth>if colour of this point == colour of next point, the 4 new points will have same colour
08:35<frosch123>you mean keep the same colours, just make the edges longer
08:35<andythenorth>if colour of this point != next point -> some rule
08:35<andythenorth>yup
08:35<andythenorth>but you could smooth
08:36<andythenorth>are EZ full 32bpp?
08:36<andythenorth>smoothing with an 256 colour palette would be an arse tbh
08:37<Rhamphoryncus>andythenorth: it hurts my head that your approach is working well
08:37<andythenorth>why?
08:37<andythenorth>life is just patterns
08:37<andythenorth>architechture is just patterns
08:37<andythenorth> vehicles are just patterns
08:37<andythenorth>:)
08:38<Rhamphoryncus>But it *should* be about the nuance. The subtle details that don't conform to the pattern
08:38*andythenorth did technical drawing in school - it helps you think about how 3D objects can be reduced to projections, nets and meshes
08:38<andythenorth>Rhamphoryncus: its 8bpp pixel art :)
08:38<Rhamphoryncus>The roof is really important there
08:40<Rhamphoryncus>the 8bpp is what makes it so hard. You can't actually be subtle
08:43*andythenorth just pretends it's lego
08:45<@planetmaker>andythenorth: replacing the houses by something less noisy is something I'd quite fancy
08:45<andythenorth>houses are harder :)
08:45<@planetmaker>wrt zoom levels: both 8bpp and 32bpp should get zoom versions
08:46<@Alberth>and while you are at it, in all 4 orientations :p
08:46<andythenorth>ho
08:46<andythenorth>in that case we should finish the generator as a standalone python package :)
08:46<andythenorth>we > me
08:47<andythenorth>oh dear
08:47*andythenorth just had an idea
08:48<@planetmaker>andythenorth: you know zephyris procedural building generator?
08:48<andythenorth>yes
08:48<@planetmaker>ok
08:48<andythenorth>he never made it shade
08:49<andythenorth>he got the raster part done :)
08:49<andythenorth>not the shader
08:51<andythenorth>anyone guess what this results in? :D http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/2474/floor_plan.png
08:52<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/2475/stepped_building.png
08:52<Rhamphoryncus>nice
08:53<Rhamphoryncus>mid roof looks a little off. In particular it doesn't continue to the back side.
08:53<andythenorth>no
08:53<andythenorth>I made a boo boo
08:54<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/2476/a_test_building.png
08:54<andythenorth>fixed it
08:55<Rhamphoryncus>hrm. Better, but still not quite right
08:56<Rhamphoryncus>I probably wouldn't notice in a full city though
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08:59<andythenorth>you could always overpaint it ;)
09:01<andythenorth>prefer the building in brown? change one constant...
09:01<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/2477/building_brown.png
09:02<MNIM>was that you, andy, who makes FIRS?
09:02<Rhamphoryncus>hehe
09:02<andythenorth>MNIM: not just me
09:02<andythenorth>many others too
09:03<MNIM>Well, anyway, I suppose you can help me then.
09:03<MNIM>For some reason I can't fund a recycling plant in-game (while I can fund others)
09:03<MNIM>the 'fund' button is greyed out.
09:03<Rhamphoryncus>hrm. Those are 32bpp, not 8bit?
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09:03<andythenorth>Rhamphoryncus: 8 bit
09:04<Rhamphoryncus>gimp loads it as 32bpp
09:04<andythenorth>MNIM: what year of game?
09:04<andythenorth>Rhamphoryncus: ah
09:04<andythenorth>yes
09:04<andythenorth>the originals are 8bpp
09:04<andythenorth>I'm pasting screenshots zoomed in
09:04<Rhamphoryncus>ahhh
09:04<MNIM>Oh. it's year-dependent?
09:04<MNIM>oh, kay, that probably solves my problem.
09:05<MNIM>playing 1915 right now.
09:05<andythenorth>MNIM: 1997
09:05<andythenorth>http://www.tt-foundry.com/sets/FIRS/schema/industries?economy=point_7_release
09:05<MNIM>Ah. guess I won't be planting a recycling plant nest to my steel mill any time soon then.
09:06<Rhamphoryncus>good news! My overpainting looks like shit :D
09:06<Eddi|zuHause>[18.02.2012 13:28] <Rubidium> maybe preventing reopening each time might give a significant performance boost for NML? <-- my profile was created with --nfo output, so no image processing at all
09:06<andythenorth>Rhamphoryncus: no proof without a link ;(
09:07<andythenorth>;)
09:08<Eddi|zuHause><Rubidium> looking at cets.nml there can't that many expressions <-- i think the template evaluation is quite problematic, it's fairly large expressions that are repeated many times
09:08<Rhamphoryncus>andythenorth: try making the top building 1 pixel narrower on each side
09:09<Rhamphoryncus>That approach works okay
09:09<Rhamphoryncus>What didn't work was tweaking the rear roofline to look like that, but without shrinking the building
09:11<Eddi|zuHause>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/cets/repository/entry/src/templates/gfx_templates.pnml <-- here
09:12<Eddi|zuHause>probably could be improved by caching some partial results
09:13<Zuu>Doh, having both american and british spelling of the same variable is not a good idea :-)
09:14<Eddi|zuHause>talking about my code?
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09:15<andythenorth>Zuu: colour?
09:15<andythenorth>:P
09:15<Rhamphoryncus>I'll stick with the canadian spelling, thanks *g*
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09:24<Zuu>andythenorth: nope, "neighbours"
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09:25<andythenorth>:)
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09:27<andythenorth>procedurally generate ships?
09:27*andythenorth brrs
09:28<+michi_cc>procedurally generated procedures :p
09:28<andythenorth>michi_cc: that's CETS
09:28<+michi_cc>Now that we have an NML generator and a pixel generator, we just need a spreadsheet generator (input: wikipedia category, output: filled spreadsheet)
09:30*Zuu just released yet another GS library. :-) (not announced on forums yet)
09:30<Zuu>But there is a good readme included with it.
09:31<Zuu>Doh.. you can't view GS Library readmes ingame... :-)
09:33<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: that would be cool, i'd just feed it "list of swiss engines" and it spiders through it :p
09:36<andythenorth>now all we need is an openttd generator
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10:13<appe>morning people
10:15<@Alberth>moin
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10:53*andythenorth ponders
10:53<andythenorth>also...hi supermop
10:55<supermop>hi
10:55<supermop>hows it going?
10:55<andythenorth>supermop: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=996068#p996068
10:56<supermop>haha buildings too?
10:56<supermop>you are quite mad
10:56<supermop>can you teach it to be metabolist
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10:57<andythenorth>supermop: yes it could do metabolist
10:57<andythenorth>let's see
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11:18<supermop>it is sort of small for a tall building - even at tto scale
11:20<andythenorth>that's resolvable ;)
11:20<andythenorth>meanwhile
11:20<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/2478/metabolist.png
11:20<andythenorth>metabolist isn't the easiest to do this way, but it would be possible
11:20<andythenorth>it doesn't look much right now
11:21<supermop>hmmm
11:21<andythenorth>I think you'd spend quite a while setting up the block patterns
11:21<@Rubidium>andythenorth: yes, the colours are wrong. The rest looks quite nice. Just go a little higher
11:21<Zuu>Hmm, why is it that GS can't even depend on GS libraries on banans?
11:22<andythenorth>supermop: from a quick google, metabolist looks highly procedural :P
11:22<andythenorth>the tricky bit is getting the shading right
11:23<supermop>yeah
11:23<Zuu>The tutorial GS want to depend on SuperLib and TileLabels.
11:23<andythenorth>if I was going to write a metabolist generator (I'm not) I'd do it a little more specifically
11:23<andythenorth>this generator just draws patterns of pixels
11:23<@Rubidium>Zuu: might be useful to highlight (SROTS/Lord) TrueBrain for that
11:23<andythenorth>I'd pre-define the blocks that seem to be the basic building unit
11:24<supermop>well capsule tower might be a good test for that - draw shaft or variable height, stick random boxes on the sides
11:24<supermop>*of
11:24<andythenorth>then I'd sequence chains of blocks
11:24<Zuu>Rubidium: Good point
11:24<andythenorth>the method I've got is good for vehicles - the sequences are only a few px
11:24<@Rubidium>andythenorth: http://mz.openttdcoop.org/opengfx/trg1r/data/sprite1472.png looks a bit like that sprite (just needs more colour)
11:25<andythenorth>for buildings, it might be better to define 'window', 'wallsection', 'metabolistblock' etc
11:25<supermop>yep - the capsule tower
11:25<Zuu>TrueBrain: Could you make it so that GameScripts can depend on GameScript libraries and scenarios. It would also be nice if scenarios can depend on game scripts. Hopefully OpenTTD don't get mad at cyclic dependencies :-)
11:25<supermop>tto was responsible for me looking into metabolist architecture in the first place, back in the mid 90s
11:25<TrueBrain>make a bug report in the website secion Zuu
11:25<TrueBrain>I might not forget it then ...
11:25<TrueBrain>:D
11:26<Zuu>I think there is one already, but I'll check.
11:26<andythenorth>supermop: there are only two block styles in the capsule building
11:26-!-Devroush [~dennis@178-119-153-135.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:26<supermop>nope, at least 4
11:26<andythenorth>and they're just drawn z pixels above the floor, at x, y
11:26<supermop>(i snuck inside it once)
11:26<andythenorth>in the TTD sprite?
11:26*andythenorth means the TTD sprite ;)
11:26<supermop>haha
11:26<andythenorth>I don't count the colours, colours are trivial
11:27-!-Devroush [~dennis@178-119-153-135.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd
11:27<andythenorth>given the blocks, that sprite could be sequences
11:27<supermop>well in real life you have those with the door on the end or on the side, and also with the window on the end or on the side
11:27<supermop>so 4 total
11:30<andythenorth>this method I have in mind isn't much different from compositing a building tile from multiple sprites
11:30<andythenorth>just at compile time
11:30<andythenorth>and using directly sequenced pixels, rather than drawing them...
11:30<andythenorth>(which sounds insane, but somehow isn't)
11:32<Zuu>Hmm, I don't find the website section when creating a new task on FlySpray.
11:33<Zuu>Does it have a separate flyspray URL?
11:33<Zuu>TrueBrain: ?
11:33<@Rubidium>it's a separate project
11:33<@Rubidium>there is a dropdown/combobox in the top left corner
11:33<@Rubidium>with a button switch next to it
11:33<@Rubidium>select the website there
11:35-!-FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd
11:37<Zuu>Thanks. Done @ http://bugs.openttd.org/task/5073
11:40<Rhamphoryncus>andythenorth: it IS insane, but sometimes insanity works :D
11:40<andythenorth>only valid for highly regular shapes
11:41<andythenorth>;)
11:42-!-Steve^ [~steve@host-78-149-167-114.as13285.net] has joined #openttd
11:42<Steve^>Is there anyway to make catchment areas bigger for train stations? Other than artificially expanding the station into towns with bus stations
11:45<andythenorth>artificially expand them with station tiles from a station set
11:45<andythenorth>using distant-join (ctrl-click to build)
11:45<andythenorth>;)
11:45*andythenorth can recommend station sets, but is not a reliable witness
11:46-!-bryjen [~bryjen@75.81.252.118] has joined #openttd
11:46<Steve^>oh, distant join!?
11:47<Steve^>!! Ctrl is the magic key
11:47<andythenorth>http://wiki.openttd.org/Distant-join_stations
11:47<Steve^>I've been manually building adjacent stations
11:47<andythenorth>using a station newgrf will make it prettier
11:47<Steve^>I knew It'd be a good idea to ask in here :)
11:50<andythenorth>Steve^: shameless advertising.... http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=984442#p984442
11:51<Steve^>:D
12:04<appe>hm
12:05<appe>is there any grf that enables me to stimulate the standard industries more?
12:05<appe>for instance, make mines produce a bit more
12:05<appe>would make my day a bit brighter.
12:06<Zuu>Sounds like a feature request for a new OpenGFX+ Industries parameter.
12:06<appe>really?
12:06<Zuu>(unless there is one already)
12:07<appe>http://i.imgur.com/cCFtC.png
12:07<appe>for instance..
12:07<appe>would be neat to be able to bring sufficient needs to stimulate the industry production in a matter like this (in the picture).
12:07<appe>for instance, workers, tools or such.
12:08<appe>doesnt FIRS have something similar?
12:08-!-Elukka [~Elukka@78-27-90-14.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd
12:08<Eddi|zuHause>yes, "mining supplies"
12:08<Zuu>Oh, sorry, I though you wanted to just multiply the production levels by say 1.25 generally for industries.
12:08<appe>Eddi|zuHause: ah, i see.
12:08<Eddi|zuHause>or rather "engineering supplies"
12:08<appe>Eddi|zuHause: ..and vehicles!
12:08<Eddi|zuHause>that was ECS
12:09<appe>Eddi|zuHause: something like that would be neat to use applied to the standard industry models.
12:09<appe>do we have something like that?
12:09<Eddi|zuHause>appe: make a suggestion for FIRS economies
12:10<andythenorth>appe: you'd need a source industry for the supplies...
12:11<andythenorth>one that's in default set, in all climates
12:12<appe>i see.
12:12<appe>well
12:12<Eddi|zuHause>make factory/sawmill/refinery output a second cargo, and input those to oil wells/mines/forests (cyclic)
12:12<Steve^>I don't see where infrastructure costs appear in the end of year finances
12:12<appe>Eddi|zuHause: that sounds resonable.
12:13<Steve^>my infrastructure is greater than my property maintenance
12:13<Eddi|zuHause>so you get a chain mine->factory->oil well->refinery->forest->sawmill->mine or something
12:13<appe>yes
12:13<appe>exactly
12:14<Eddi|zuHause>as an incentive to supply all branches of the economy
12:14<appe>a system like that would make small maps more and more fun
12:14<appe>ill say, at least.
12:15<appe>since development into smaller and smaller scales will be possible
12:17<andythenorth>that's a standalone grf imo
12:17<andythenorth>it's just modify existing industry behaviour
12:17<andythenorth>it's a mini-set, the only graphic needed is a cargo icon for the supply cargo
12:18-!-glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:8023:c6c8:b61d:b73] has joined #openttd
12:18-!-mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ
12:18<appe>yes
12:19<andythenorth>you need to learn nml in that case :)
12:20<appe>hehe
12:20<appe>thats why i have you!
12:23<andythenorth>uh uh
12:23*andythenorth has stopped writing code
12:23<andythenorth>like Eddi|zuHause
12:26<andythenorth>we have code to write the code
12:26<andythenorth>"P
12:27-!-mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-98-237.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd
12:28<appe>haha
12:29<andythenorth>hmm
12:29*andythenorth now has a load of test pixel generator code in the BANDIT repo
12:29*andythenorth wonders whether to move this to a standalone project
12:32-!-HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6C360.versanet.de] has joined #openttd
12:34<Zuu>Hmm, I got about twice as many downloads of the Tutorial GameScript as the scenario for version 6. And with version 7, there is already more GS downloads than scenario downloads.
12:34<Zuu>This dispite the fact that you need to have a hidden setting active in OpenTTD in order to being able to even load the GS without the scenario.
12:38<Eddi|zuHause>maybe person A gives person B the scenario, but person B must still download the script?
12:39-!-HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@i59F6C4A7.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:39<Zuu>I noticed though that I had forgoten to put a big warning in the GS that you need the scenario too on bananas. Probably why the difference was so big.
12:40<Zuu>There was a big warning in the scenario, but not in the GS. Now both have big warning messages. :-)
12:42<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23963 /trunk/src/openttd.cpp: -Fix [FS#5072]: do not look for missing sprites twice during startup
12:45-!-Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has joined #openttd
12:46<Zuu>Eddi|zuHause: I guess that is also a possible scenario.
12:46<@Rubidium>or... I need an AI... don't know which one, select everyone from the content list in the ai menu
12:47-!-supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: supermop]
12:48<@Rubidium>you could fudge the supported version so it doesn't show up in the list unless the scenario puts a dependency on it
12:48<Rhamphoryncus>Rubidium: got my timetable patch working :) Other than one latent issue with passengers continuously extending the loading process
12:48<@Rubidium>although it might (in theory at least) be possible to set a dependency on the scenario from the game script
12:49<@Rubidium>yes, the conductors are *very* gracious to late comers
12:50<Eddi|zuHause>Rhamphoryncus: i though we solved that some time ago in trunk
12:50<Eddi|zuHause>+t
12:50<Zuu>The Tutorial GS is only visible in the GS list for GS/AI-developers (don't remember if there is a separate setting for GS). The method to put a wrong OpenTTD version requirement would need FS#5073 to be fixed first so that the scenario can depend on the GS.
12:50<Rhamphoryncus>oh, the passenger bit?
12:53<Zuu>But that might then actually be quite clean then. Users only seeing the scenario which is what they would interact with.
12:54<@Rubidium>Zuu: try content download now (the AI one first, or the one from play scenario)
12:54<@Rubidium>though for full effect you need to remove them from OpenTTD's 'search path'
12:55<Eddi|zuHause>@openttd commit 20506
12:55<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: Commit by michi_cc :: r20506 /trunk/src (economy.cpp vehicle_base.h) (2010-08-15 22:37:30 UTC)
12:55<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: -Change: Vehicles will now stop loading after a load cycle that loaded less than possible, unless it's a full load order. This should improve behaviour with gradual loading and cargo continuously trickling in.
12:55<Eddi|zuHause>Rhamphoryncus: i think that was the revision
12:55<Zuu>The one form AI/GS-window now shows the scenario and selects it if I click the Tutorial GS.
12:56<Rhamphoryncus>Eddi|zuHause: alright, I'll take a look
12:56<Zuu>The dependancy works also the other way around.
12:57<@Rubidium>evil, ain't it? ;)
12:57<Zuu>I don't have them according to bananas (probably because I don't develop in content_download)
12:57<Zuu>Rubidium: hehe :-)
12:57<@Rubidium>the scenario?
12:57<@Rubidium>or the GS?
12:58<@Rubidium>for the scenario the server attached a 'unique' id (needed for updates)
12:58<Zuu>I have both in Documents\OpenTTD\game\Tutorial
12:58<@Rubidium>for the GS the server might replace newlines
12:59<Zuu>Both are unchecked in the banans list.
12:59<Zuu>The scenario is not even in the search path.
12:59<@Rubidium>yep, missing unique ID for scenario and windows -> unix newlines for GS
13:00<Zuu>But that isn't really an issue. It only affects me. :-)
13:01<Zuu>So will you keep the dependancies as you set them or was this just an experiment? Eg. should/can I remove the warnings in the descriptions on bananas?
13:02<Zuu>Still, ideally *someone* need to make a patch for bananas to allow me to set the dependency myself for updates.
13:03<@Rubidium>I can keep the deps
13:04<Zuu>Though, given that I will probably receive string updates and perhaps make a new update soon, you don't want to get into the database and set it manually each time. So perhas remove it and people will not know that you can do it. ;-)
13:08<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 26.8/3
13:08<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 8.93333333333
13:11<@Rubidium>Zuu: if you don't update too often it shouldn't be a (big) problem to add this to the database
13:15<appe>what kind of sorcery is this
13:15<andythenorth>hmm
13:15<appe>started openttd with chrome running in the background
13:15<andythenorth>the pixel generator has *no* guarding against exceeding the blue box etc :)
13:15<appe>the clip was showed ontop of the game
13:15<andythenorth>I don't think I'll add any either
13:15<appe>but not the rest of the site?
13:15<appe>:E
13:16<andythenorth>appe: flash bug
13:16<appe>not related to the game, i guess?
13:16<andythenorth>not
13:16<appe>it only happends with openttd, thati s.
13:16<appe>that is*
13:16<andythenorth>hmm
13:16<appe>ah
13:16<appe>never min
13:16<appe>+d.
13:17<appe>why do i have to correct 50% of everything i say.
13:17<appe>:(
13:17-!-supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #openttd
13:19-!-|Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd
13:21<supermop>what did i miss?
13:21<supermop>generative helicopters?
13:27<Zuu>Rubidium: Thanks, then I'll remove the dependancy warning.
13:29<@Rubidium>are you going to upload both the GS and a scenario each time?
13:29<Zuu>Though, that might overwrite your manual changes.
13:29<Zuu>Yes
13:29<@Rubidium>okay, then there's no need to note the current IDs somewhere
13:30*Rubidium might be able to remove the warning as well
13:30-!-Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:30<Zuu>The scenario reference a specific version of the GS. And the GS that is uploaded is set to only load savegames of that particular version.
13:30<andythenorth>hmm
13:31<@Rubidium>there... warning gone
13:31<Zuu>Thank you
13:31<andythenorth>Alberth: I'm not 100% sure how to package the generator into a simple standalone utiity
13:32<andythenorth>utility /s
13:32<andythenorth>it only needs one method currently
13:32<andythenorth>it accepts: 1 spritesheet (PIL image object), a mapping of colours to sequences, a mapping of sequence definitions
13:32-!-Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has joined #openttd
13:32<andythenorth>it returns: 1 PIL image object
13:33<xiong>I started to build a scenario and now I want to upgrade a NewGRF to a current version; I have installed the newer version. I don't seem to be able to alter the set of NewGRFs associated with the scenario, let alone in the middle of a running game.
13:33*andythenorth recalls python has some method like __main__ which can be called on a class
13:33<andythenorth>but that might be the wrong route
13:34<@Alberth>xiong: correct
13:35<xiong>I take it this is not fixable, Alberth.
13:35<@Alberth>a mapping of colours to sequences, ugh
13:35<andythenorth>in one respect what I actually want to do is extend the methods available on the spritesheet, so I can call im.generate_pixels(colour_keys, pixel_sequences)
13:35<andythenorth>but that's extending PIL
13:36<Rhamphoryncus>Rubidium: fixed it, thanks. Regression due to my patch.
13:36<xiong>BTW, I'm playing 1.2.0-beta4 now. Kudos; it's a real improvement.
13:37<@Alberth>andythenorth: give it an extra image with the sequences?
13:37<andythenorth>I considered that
13:37<andythenorth>it's quite neat for sequences that only vary in y direction
13:37-!-|Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO]
13:37<andythenorth>it falls apart for sequences where x varies
13:37<@Alberth>what's 'a mapping of sequence definitions'
13:38<andythenorth>not sure yet
13:38<@Rubidium>Zuu: *massive* bug ;) I disobeyed the tutorial and clicked on the hangar for the order. It told me to remove the order and make an airport order (which I did), and now the bug... the window saying that isn't closed automatically even if it has the "Close" button implying it would be closed automatically
13:38<andythenorth>Alberth: here's a current gestalt file - but I'm reversing the approach
13:38<andythenorth>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1122/
13:38<andythenorth>so the gestalts will call pixel generator, rather than vice versa
13:39<@Alberth>that call is missing there?
13:40<andythenorth>doesn't exist yet
13:40*andythenorth is now doing 'design before code' :o
13:40<andythenorth>insane
13:40<@Rubidium>Zuu: also the aircraft tutorial doesn't seem to be the first chapter even those the final one says it is
13:41<andythenorth>maybe I should just pitch into code
13:41<Zuu>Rubidium: Oh, I should add that that is only valid for messages displayed by the MessageWindowStep class ;-)
13:41<@Alberth>so what does the input look like, except for the image?
13:41<Zuu>Or better for the user, it is not valid for warning or question type messages :-)
13:41<andythenorth>currently looks like the paste
13:41<andythenorth>there will be more
13:41<@Alberth>ah, ok
13:42<Rhamphoryncus>andythenorth: you can.. code before design?
13:42<andythenorth>apparently
13:42<@Alberth>Rhamphoryncus: that's easy :)
13:42<andythenorth>I have also employed lots of people who think the same :P
13:42<andythenorth>not always with good results
13:42<Zuu>Though, I might make it close the warning message when you accomplished the task
13:42*andythenorth has spent ~£30k learning about 'design before code[sometimes]'
13:42<Rhamphoryncus>It's a foreign concept to me. I could spend a week designing and redesigning before writing a single line.
13:43<andythenorth>code can be expensive if you don't design it first :P
13:43<@Alberth>andythenorth: the input looks complicated enough to me to not try pusing it in some standard text format
13:44<andythenorth>Alberth: on my current thinking, I don't see how the gestalts can be anything except a mix of config and code
13:44<@Alberth>so that leaves you either a .py file as main entry point, or a custom parser
13:44<andythenorth>I think each gestalt file is quite sophisticated
13:44<andythenorth>much like the nfo or nml for a vehicle can be quite sophisticated :P
13:44<andythenorth>I don't like it much, but it's cleaner than writing spaghetti code with 10 bazillion 'if' conditions
13:44-!-LordPixaII [~pixa@79-68-96-191.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:45<andythenorth>and a 5-level deep chain modifying constants
13:45-!-Pixa [~pixa@79-68-106-122.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #openttd
13:45<@Alberth>you can keep the data separately by importing it from your main scripy
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r23964 /trunk/src/lang/ (8 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: belarusian - 2 changes by Wowanxm
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: german - 6 changes by NG
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: hungarian - 14 changes by IPG
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: lithuanian - 54 changes by Stabilitronas
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: portuguese - 4 changes by JayCity
13:45<appe>are we talking fullerenes?
13:45<appe>oh, code.
13:45<appe>never mind.
13:46<@Alberth>the usual on-topic talk :)
13:46<andythenorth>Alberth: I'll bash at some code once baby #1 is out of the bath and baby #2 is asleep :P
13:46<@Alberth>ok :)
13:47<@Alberth>but a .py as main script seems like the simplest approach to me atm
13:48<Zuu>Rubidium: The last message says "you have now completed your first transport route in OpenTTD.". There navigation chapter will probably not teach any transport routes. Though you could now take the ship chapter first and then the aircraft chapter, but then you have already been warned that you are not taking them in the order that the tutorial is designed for.
13:48<Zuu> s/There navigation/The navigation/
13:49<@Rubidium>STR_AIRPLANES_1_4_5_DONE :You have now completed the first chapter of this tutorial.
13:49<andythenorth>Alberth: this may not make sense with explanation...but it's my current spec
13:49<andythenorth>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1123/
13:49<@Rubidium>STR_AIRPLANES_1_1_1_INTRO :Aircraft - Building an Airport{}{}In this first chapter
13:50<Zuu>Oh, my bad, I didn't reach the end of the chapter :-)
13:50<Zuu>Only the summary heading...
13:51-!-LordPixaII [~pixa@85.210.69.28] has joined #openttd
13:52<andythenorth>a gestalt = a vehicle type, providing all colour variations, load variations etc
13:53<supermop>hmmm i wonder if i can get away with playing go at work?
13:53-!-Pixa [~pixa@79-68-106-122.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:54<appe>hm
13:54<andythenorth>supermop: learn to generate buildings instead ;) That *is* work...
13:54<appe>where does glass go in the ECS grf?
13:54<andythenorth>for you at least ;)
13:54<appe>a town based industry?
13:56<Eddi|zuHause>the car factory?
13:56<Eddi|zuHause>click the glass industry, there you can see the industry chains
13:56*Rubidium can at least get away with "playing" with train network models at work ;)
13:56<appe>yes, its empty
13:56<xiong>YAPF now recommended for ships? I seem to recall Original used to be recommended; YAPF didn't work so well with ships. Anybody know anything about this?
13:56<appe>oh god.
13:57<Eddi|zuHause>i should probably stop trying to be helpful to xiong...
13:58<valhallasw>xiong: I would suggest to use the CNPF: Chuck doesn't find paths - the world just shapes so that the straight path is the right one.
13:59*xiong hopes valhallasw is joking but checks anyhow
14:00<xiong>Okay, valhallasw, good one. Ha ha.
14:01<supermop>andythenorth: right now my job is furniture, doing anything architecture related makes it look like I am getting ready to leave to go back to that.
14:01<Noldo>I haven't heard of any progress on the ship PF since someone did a patch that did area based search
14:01<valhallasw>(I don't actually have an answer. As far as I can remember, the problem with YAPF for ships was CPU usage (because there are many possible paths). If it just works for you, and your computer doesn't grind to a halt, you're probably fine.)
14:02<xiong>http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/Openttd.cfg --> ship_use_yapf = false
14:03<xiong>But the Advanced Settings GUI now says 'YAPF (Recommended)'.
14:04<xiong>Not an urgent question for me now. I'm playing an all-land, all flat test map. :(
14:04<xiong>But inquiring minds want to know.
14:04<@Alberth>but you've made it very clear you don't want help, to me at least
14:06<andythenorth>supermop: oops :o
14:06<xiong>Rhamphoryncus++
14:06<andythenorth>procedural furniture? :P
14:06<Rhamphoryncus>xiong: hmm?
14:06<supermop>actually
14:06<xiong>Design before code.
14:06<supermop>i was trying to get us to do that last year
14:06<supermop>it was over my head but i was the one who mentioned it
14:07<Rhamphoryncus>xiong: ah
14:07<supermop>the way we work would be really well suited to it
14:07<supermop>and automatically generate shop drawings and renderings for architects based on what we plan in our tool
14:08<andythenorth>that's not done already?
14:08<andythenorth>is your tool 2d or 3d?
14:08<Rhamphoryncus>for those who are interested here is my current timetable patch: https://bitbucket.org/rhamph/openttd-rhamph/changesets/tip/branch%28%22route%22%29
14:08<supermop>we produce axonimetrics and elevations only
14:09<supermop>it is sort of 3d in as much as tt is
14:09<supermop>its a java based tool we wrote ourselves
14:09<Rhamphoryncus>still much to clean up though, and whatever gui changes are necessary
14:09<supermop>with all sorts of problems
14:09<andythenorth>interestink
14:09<supermop>but it is still industry leading
14:10<supermop>(says something about the industry)
14:10<supermop>(we are way out ahead on that just because we thought it would be neat to have a tool at all)
14:10<andythenorth>anyone suggest a name for the pixel generator? I need to move it to it's own package
14:11<@Rubidium>andythenorth: Pixa
14:11<andythenorth>YAPG ?
14:11<supermop>PIGS
14:11<Rhamphoryncus>andyspixelfactory
14:11<supermop>Procedurally iterated Graphics system
14:11<@Rubidium>or.. LordPixaII as it's full name and Pixa as it's short name. That way you have tab completion in here ;)
14:12<andythenorth>pixa will do nicely
14:12<@Rubidium>s/'//
14:12<LordPixaII>Wait what?
14:15<Zuu>Rubidium: Do you use one of those railway simulation models or a more generic model like Visum/Emme?
14:16<@Rubidium>Zuu: none of them
14:17<Zuu>At my work there is a merklin railway track with a train on it in the reception. :-)
14:18*Rubidium has no clue what kind of track there is on our office, though it's just a few pieces of straight track with some trains on them
14:21<Zuu>Is it that what you were aiming at when stated that you got to play with railway models at work?
14:24<@Rubidium>no
14:26<supermop>yes!
14:26-!-Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:26<supermop>my valentine is now working!
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14:26<andythenorth>Alberth: a lot of the stuff in this paste is just so I can test the module without calling it from another script (main.py) http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1124/
14:26<andythenorth>is there a good way to handle that?
14:26<andythenorth>is it even a valid aim?
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14:26<@Rubidium>my company does (all kinds of) rail measurements, and we need to report on the customer's model of their railway network
14:27<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: if __name__ == "__main__":?
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14:27*andythenorth docs...
14:27<Zuu>okay, interesting to read
14:27<@Rubidium>but ofcourse all customers have a different model, and thus we have a generic model and all kinds of code to go between models
14:27<Rhamphoryncus>Eddi: standard python convention
14:27<Rhamphoryncus>damnit, gotta read better
14:28<Zuu>Of course, why would there be a standard? :-)
14:29<@Rubidium>because WGS84 sucks ;)
14:29<@Rubidium>but that's where the petroleum industry comes into play
14:29<Zuu>In Sweden there is generally only two different geo coordinate systems (none of them is WGS84)
14:32<@Rubidium>Zuu: RT38 and RT90?
14:32<Zuu>RT90 and Sweref
14:32<Zuu>RT30 I never herd of.
14:33<Zuu>And then there is about 8-10 variants of RT90 :-)
14:34<Zuu>RT38*
14:34<@Rubidium>so EPSG:4976 ;)
14:35<@Rubidium>or EPSG:4124
14:35<Zuu>If you say so.. :-)
14:36<@Rubidium>it's the ID the petroleum guys gave it
14:36<@Rubidium>and they have a massive database of all kinds of projections
14:36<@Rubidium>making it pretty easy to go from one projection to another
14:36<Zuu>I sometimes get lost in the projections list in our GIS software.
14:37<@Alberth>andythenorth: I'll clean it up a bit
14:37<@Rubidium>spatial reference only knows ~8000 of them ;)
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14:49<@Alberth>andythenorth: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1125/ I broke it into two pieces :)
14:50<andythenorth>he
14:50<andythenorth>I created and then deleted a generate method :)
14:50<andythenorth>similar to that
14:51<@Alberth>oh, you can yield :)
14:51*andythenorth copies the paste...
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14:53<@Alberth>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1126/ lines 8 and 19 have changed (and you lost lines 11 and 22 of paste 1125)
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15:00*andythenorth -> code
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15:03<andythenorth>ho ho
15:03<andythenorth>works
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15:16<andythenorth>hmm
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15:16<andythenorth>so I want some kind of module for handling gestalts
15:16<andythenorth>which each gestalt file then imports
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15:17<@Alberth>import them all , and put them in a dict?
15:18<andythenorth>could do
15:18<andythenorth>the gestalts will get more complicated
15:18<andythenorth>they need to run multiple render passes or composite images
15:18<andythenorth>specfic to each gestalt
15:19*andythenorth hmms a bit
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15:19<andythenorth>maybe time to try some more actual shapes
15:19<andythenorth>to see what else is needed
15:19<@Alberth>gestalt.generate(input_name, output_name)
15:20<andythenorth>something like that yes
15:20<andythenorth>output name is actually by convention
15:20<andythenorth>I just want to call gestalt.generate from my main.py
15:20<andythenorth>probably for each vehicle in BANDIT config, or for one vehicle at a time (with command line args)
15:21<andythenorth>gestalts is a package now with __init__.py
15:21<andythenorth>what happens if I put code in the __init__.py?
15:22<Xaroth>you can put stuff in __init__.py
15:23<Xaroth>if you put stuff in bla/__init__.py you can import it 'from bla import <something>' instead of 'from bla.something import something'
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15:25<andythenorth>oic
15:25<andythenorth>I import pixa.py (the generator code) to the gestalt file
15:25<andythenorth>then I call render on the generator :)
15:25<andythenorth>generator? gestalt :P
15:27<andythenorth>so a gestalt now has these 2 imports: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1127/
15:28<andythenorth>can I consolidate those somehow to a single import?
15:28<andythenorth>import gestalt ? or such
15:29<@planetmaker>import * from XY
15:29<@planetmaker>maybe?
15:34<@Alberth>why do you want to reduce the #imports in a gestalt?
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15:37<andythenorth>Alberth: reduce duplication
15:37<andythenorth>not sure I can though
15:37<andythenorth>this is a bit like adding objects in a web app I think
15:37<andythenorth>you want page_1 to behave differently to page_2
15:38<andythenorth>but both use various utilities
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15:38<dragonhorseboy>any of you perhaps know if ottd can be compiled without any sound files on linux?
15:38<andythenorth>you have to import modules, define local constants, and write logic
15:38<andythenorth>dragonhorseboy: that wasn't an answer to your question ;)
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15:39<dragonhorseboy>lol andy, I already figured that out :p
15:39<@Alberth>dragonhorseboy: there is a 'nosound' package
15:40<@Rubidium>Alberth: that's not even needed
15:40<MNIM>Heh. It takes a LONG time to traverse a 1024x1024 map at 99kmh.
15:40<@Rubidium>OpenTTD starts perfectly fine without opensfx or the original sample.cat
15:40<@Alberth>but for compilation, you don't need sound files at all :)
15:40<MNIM>Some of my freight trains take two years for a single return trip.
15:41<@Rubidium>actually... nosound and nomusic are part of the openttd installation
15:41<andythenorth>hmm
15:41*andythenorth has written some awfully circular code
15:41<andythenorth>seems to work
15:41<andythenorth>file under 'fix later'
15:42<dragonhorseboy>alberth thanks, just wondering about why it was needing a 100+MB dependancy just for audio alone ... so guess I'll see about compiling from source and see how that goes
15:43<@Rubidium>what needs that dependency?
15:43<__ln__>*dependency
15:43<dragonhorseboy>ottd.i686 itself obviously
15:43*Rubidium wonders which packager did depend on a music player
15:43<dragonhorseboy>heh sorry ln...never could spell that word sometimes
15:44*andythenorth does 'yay'
15:44<@Rubidium>any sane OpenTTD packager would recommend or suggest openmsx + music player, but shouldn't depend on it
15:45<@Alberth>'sane' and 'packager' in one sentence :o
15:45<dragonhorseboy>rubidium well the packager is the os' not openttd's so :-)
15:46<@Rubidium>the packager did package OpenTTD right, so he's OpenTTD's packager (for a particular OS/distribution)
15:47<dragonhorseboy>heh yeah thats fair enough
15:48<@Alberth>dragonhorseboy: it's a dependency invented by the package creator, openttd itself can live without, or just with nosound just as well
15:49<dragonhorseboy>yeah alberth...thats why I thought that it might be plausible to just compile it from source instead....looking that way by now :)
15:49<dragonhorseboy>at least thankful for the opengfx so I don't have to try figure how to copy these files over to that laptop heh
15:50<@Rubidium>the compile dependencies are probably quite a lot as well
15:52<dragonhorseboy>actually rubidium...not really..its just the typical make/gcc/zlib things that are usually already installed anyway :)
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15:53<@Alberth>dragonhorseboy: you need a lot of libraries too :)
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15:56<LordAro>evenings
15:56<dragonhorseboy>hey lordaro
15:57<dragonhorseboy>alberth just a silly question as its been some time since I last played it myself...I assume openttd has train path reserving and programmable signals?
15:57<@planetmaker>yes and no
16:00<dragonhorseboy>hmm...how come no or its just that someone simply decided to not bother work on it yet?
16:01<@Alberth>many people consider current signals too complicated already
16:01<dragonhorseboy>alberth hmm...I see
16:02<dragonhorseboy>alberth for me (in ttdxp mind you) I always have light long lines and rather than bothering with go-to-waypoint or holding loops I just use the signals themself to manage trains by types
16:02<dragonhorseboy>but thats my own style after all I guess
16:03<@Alberth>wouldn't railtype help here?
16:04<dragonhorseboy>railtype?
16:04<andythenorth>Alberth: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1128/
16:04<andythenorth>kind of works, but I want to redefine value of BULK_CARGO when passing it
16:04<andythenorth>but the lists I'm passing don't see the redefinition
16:05<andythenorth>should I def the list in a method, then call that?
16:05<@Alberth>I think the main problem with using signals is that people bolt all kinds of functionality to it, and it becomes one big blob of complicated functionality
16:06<dragonhorseboy>alberth heh well I'll be honest with you..there's no need for more complications than just simply traintype or pathset ones.. that can't be many signals in the first place
16:06<dragonhorseboy>but what do I know of other players
16:06<@Alberth>andythenorth: yes
16:06<dragonhorseboy>whats railtype tho?
16:07<@planetmaker>play a game with NuTracks
16:07<@planetmaker>and possibly the 2ccTrainset. Then you know
16:07<@Alberth>basically, you have more variations than normal, electric, mono, maglev tracks
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16:09<@Alberth>andythenorth: the value it originally contains is copied into the literal, so any change of the name later is not seen
16:09<andythenorth>makes sense
16:09<@Alberth>thus make a function that creates a list literal with the right value on demand
16:11<dragonhorseboy>unless I'm missing something nutracks might be just useless for mixed traffic lines since everything would be laid to the same E125 type
16:11<dragonhorseboy>thanks tho
16:12<andythenorth>hmm
16:12<andythenorth>the list literal is included in a dict
16:12<@Alberth>could be, I never played with railtypes, I just know it exists
16:12<andythenorth>I might need to def the dict as well :o
16:13<@Alberth>makes sense :)
16:13<dragonhorseboy>alberth mm its ok anyway
16:15<@Alberth>hmm, not enough money to lay tracks :p
16:16<dragonhorseboy>alberth I do sometimes do quite basic things with programmable signals only because I'm trying to emulate real life dispatching without any actual signal towers you know
16:16<dragonhorseboy>one example I still do from time to time goes like this...
16:18<dragonhorseboy>first route early on takes a hard way through the mountain due to little money ... eventually railroad prospects but the old route starts to remain a headache with stregthened short trains...
16:19<dragonhorseboy>finally spend a big chunk of budget on a longer route that makes much easier uphill work...and set new junction signals that any short freights can slog up the old line while everything else are diverted
16:25<dragonhorseboy>can be amusing to see an express E16 chasing a coal E75 up to till the junction where the E16 then literally passes the E75 even although it had a longer path
16:25*dragonhorseboy always plays with dbsetxl in temperate yeah
16:26*andythenorth hmms
16:26<andythenorth>Alberth: I have some kind of object caching issue :o
16:26<andythenorth>I think
16:26<andythenorth>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1129/
16:26*Alberth always plays with the opengfx vehicles & industries, except today, as opengfx industries does not like toyland :(
16:28<andythenorth>I have two colours: 4 and 77; if I print out the value of the P objects being passed to the render module, I see 4 for the first call, then 77 for the second call
16:28<Rhamphoryncus>andythenorth: generate() in the paste before was assigning to a local named BULK_CARGO. You need a "global BULK_CARGO" statement if you want to assign to a global
16:28<andythenorth>but the spritesheet is drawn with 4 in both cases
16:28<andythenorth>Rhamphoryncus: I've scrapped the globals ;)
16:29<Rhamphoryncus>yeah, figured it was worth explaining anyway
16:29<Rhamphoryncus>it tends to get people
16:29<dragonhorseboy>alberth heh if I had to play with original limited selection of vehicles I would had rather ended up with a hundred asiastars all over the place which makes no sense :p
16:29<andythenorth>ah
16:29<andythenorth>spritesheet is probably modified :o
16:29<andythenorth>ho
16:29<dragonhorseboy>alberth I used to try FIRS on and off a bit before...this was while it was still more or less in progress yet
16:30<andythenorth>yes, the spritesheet is being modified
16:30<andythenorth>I need to tell PIL how to copy it
16:30<andythenorth>or I need to reload it from disk, which seems...inefficient
16:30<dragonhorseboy>don't like either ukrsi due to stock-against-chain problem ... and ecs is just a bit too wieldy especially with the chemical chains being a bit weird
16:30<Rhamphoryncus>aside: lowercase module names are recommended.
16:31*andythenorth solves issue :D
16:31<dragonhorseboy>alberth and by stock-against-chain I meant like eg the steel mill refusing to accept the amount of ore I left even although this equival amount of steel is actually needed for a processing plant which refuses to produce food without steel in first place
16:31<@Alberth>andythenorth: I was already wondering how that code could break :)
16:31<Rhamphoryncus>mostly for consistency, but also to minimize trouble on case-insensitive filesystems
16:32<dragonhorseboy>don't have this issue with FIRS which is a bit easier on my thing with running mixed trains at times
16:32<dragonhorseboy>andythenorth I imagine :p
16:32<andythenorth>dragonhorseboy: I also run mixed trains ;) So there is some bias in the design of FIRS
16:33<dragonhorseboy>heh
16:33<andythenorth>ok andythenorth now has a not-insane pixel generator
16:33<andythenorth>a bit more work and it's kind of done for v1
16:33<dragonhorseboy>andythenorth its hard to find real freight trains that are not 100% solid on one single cargo type right? :)
16:33<@Alberth>dragonhorseboy: I tried ECS a two-three times, and got fed up with the stockpiling behavior very quickly, so I switched to FIRS (or default industries). Never tried ukrsi
16:33<Rhamphoryncus>andythenorth: so, planning v2 yet? ;)
16:33<Rhamphoryncus><--- not helping
16:33<dragonhorseboy>even these long trains of containers in north america actually still can have one or two tanker cars in the consist too...go figure
16:33<andythenorth>dragonhorseboy: http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=manifest+freight&oe=UTF-8&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=MhlAT72PF9Sj8gPC2KCpCA&biw=1255&bih=668&sei=NBlAT-9lx87xA7-m4cgK
16:35<dragonhorseboy>anyway need to go....only meant to come in for a short time to ask about compiling :p
16:35<dragonhorseboy>might be back tomorrow tho :)
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16:49<@planetmaker>seems like a valid bug, Alberth
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16:49<@planetmaker>and looks ugly :-(
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16:54<Eddi|zuHause>hm... the StEG doesn't have any sane express engines
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17:02<@Alberth>the rivers make the land much more enjoyable
17:02<Eddi|zuHause>aye, the rivers are awesome
17:03<@Alberth>no longer can you put long straight tracks down without thinking :)
17:05<@Alberth>planetmaker: why does opengfx+industries throw a fatal error for toyland?
17:05<andythenorth>rivers need diagonals
17:05<andythenorth>and >2 tiles
17:05*andythenorth makes rod for own back
17:06<supermop>rivers and oceans should be able to have similar types of edges
17:06<@planetmaker>/* This NewGRF currently does not work properly in toyland
17:06<@planetmaker> * climate. Disable it in that case
17:06<@planetmaker>Alberth: ^^
17:07<@planetmaker>mostly it has to do with cargo definitions afair
17:07<@Alberth>ok, known issue it seems :)
17:07<@planetmaker>Rather "not designed (yet) for toyland"
17:08<@planetmaker>the check could probably be disabled... with a strong warning that graphical glitches are for the user to worry about
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17:09<@planetmaker>Alberth: mostly it's a case of "we don't want to deal with those bug reports" :-P
17:09<@planetmaker>do you need it for toyland2mars?
17:10<@planetmaker>I'll add an exception there then
17:10<@Alberth>no, I play plain toyland :)
17:11<@planetmaker>OpenGFX+ Industries has no single toyland industry yet
17:11<@Alberth>I expect so, otherwise it would be REALLY strange :)
17:11<@planetmaker>I agree though, finally it should also support toyland. But that shares nothing with the existing industries, so it's a bit more work.
17:12<@planetmaker>Or one accepts that they always look out-of-place also wrt ground tiles
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17:12<@Alberth>but a fatal error is so strong
17:12<@planetmaker>just error?
17:12<@Alberth>just a silent 'do nothing' would be nicer.
17:12<@planetmaker>hm
17:13<Eddi|zuHause>you can simply disable the grf, in NFO terms "skip to end of file"
17:13<@Alberth>or error 'we don't do anything'
17:13<@planetmaker>Yes, that's possibly a good point. Let's change that
17:13<@Alberth>as a kind of reminder (which might get tedious, but perhaps better than getting reports 'it does not work' ?
17:15<@planetmaker>Alberth: but it poses the question then: "why do the NewGRF parameter not work in toyland" when the user there selected like wood chain, farm chain and iron ore chain
17:16<@planetmaker>after all, the point is (also) to select those industries which you'd like
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17:17<andythenorth>Alberth: "it lives"
17:17<andythenorth>I've cleaned up the generator files and committed to BANDIT
17:17<andythenorth>there's some clunky code in the gestalt
17:18*andythenorth refuses to use %s for string concatenation :P
17:19<@Alberth>planetmaker: good point
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17:20<@Alberth>andythenorth: good idea, I removed one "%s\n%s" from the ConfigParser module once, as it took ages to load a big file.
17:20<@Alberth>andythenorth: and nice that it 'lives' :D
17:21*andythenorth generates grain sprites
17:21<andythenorth>that was ~2s work for me
17:21<@Alberth>does it do plastic fountains too ?
17:22<andythenorth>could generate some :P
17:23<@Alberth>good night all
17:23<andythenorth>bye Alberth
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17:25<xiong>Is it possible for town to demolish my road and build on that tile? I think I've observed this but it's hard to tell.
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17:26<xiong>I've turned off "remove absurd road elements" and towns are not allowed to build roads at all. Don't know if this relates.
17:26<andythenorth>not if you own the road
17:26<andythenorth>if it happens to road you own, it's a bug
17:27<xiong>Even if I leave "remove absurd road elements" on?
17:27<andythenorth>might happen, but if it does, it's a bug
17:27<andythenorth>;)
17:27<xiong>These are short little access roads I'm throwing in to force the center of 3x3 blocks to build. They very rarely build without such directly adjacent access.
17:28<@planetmaker>it's possible on half-road tiles
17:29<xiong>Aha! As I suspected, planetmaker.
17:29*andythenorth eats words
17:29<andythenorth>mm tasty
17:29<xiong>Does "remove absurd road elements" affect this either way?
17:30*andythenorth bed
17:30<andythenorth>bye
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17:31<xiong>A full tile road, straight in from the edge, presents the dead end to the center tile; and I'm fairly sure dead ends of that sort -- full tile dead ends -- inhibit construction. Not absolutely, but somewhat.
17:32<xiong>So for maximum effect, in some places I've been running half a tile to the center, with a T cross. This seems to encourage growth more than the full tile straight in. In some cases, I've just done a half tile.
17:32<xiong>Those must be the ones that I'm losing to town.
17:36<Rhamphoryncus>xiong: oh, it just occurred to me: town growth operates based on randomly picking a path from the center of town. A T could provide multiple paths in.
17:37<xiong>Well, that's interesting, Rhamphoryncus.
17:38<xiong>For each build, the grid is *walked* from town center to a vacant tile!?
17:38<Rhamphoryncus>yup
17:38<xiong>I do really think the center of 3x3 blocks should build on their own. Rarely, they do.
17:39<Rhamphoryncus>As I said last time we discussed this: they do for me. It must be fixed in trunk
17:39<xiong>I'm disturbed by some backsliding I'm seeing: downtown tiles that long ago built their centers but now have gone to grass.
17:40<xiong>I upgraded to 1.2.0-beta4 and my building set is TTRS 3.13. I don't even know if the town set should affect it.
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17:40<Rhamphoryncus>Go into the scenario editor and experiment
17:41<xiong>Um, what advantage in the scenario editor?
17:41<Rhamphoryncus>you can place a town and tell it to expand
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17:41<Rhamphoryncus>Of course it's also conceivable that it behaves different there
17:41<xiong>Same algorithm? I mean, I've got an authentic game on now.
17:42<Rhamphoryncus>I assume it's the same, but I might be wrong
17:42<xiong>I let the town grow to about 20K pop without tinkering with the road system. Very few centers built -- 3 out of 16 downtown blocks.
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17:47<Stimrol_>Is there any way to stop this, i already have adjacant station=off ---> http://imgur.com/m0YAI
17:47*xiong looks
17:48<xiong>What are you trying to stop, Stimrol_?
17:49<Stimrol_>that you can have this as the same station
17:49<xiong>Um, do you want to build two logical stations? Or prohibit one logical station?
17:49<Stimrol_>this is in a way cheat because like this you can get for example wood from two forest
17:50<xiong>Different players see it differently. I like to play with disjoint stations. We're all different.
17:50<Rhamphoryncus>Stimrol_: the only practical way to stop it is have a small maximum station size
17:51<Stimrol_>it is 12 now, default
17:51<Stimrol_>so you mean have highest like seven
17:51<Rhamphoryncus>Yup. Or 4 and really suffer ;)
17:52<xiong>If you want to prohibit disjoint stations, set distant_join_stations = false
17:52<Stimrol_>does not work I have it like that
17:52<xiong>But it will still be possible to form a disjoint station; you can "walk" it out.
17:52<Rhamphoryncus>distant join doesn't stop you from having disjoint stations. It only makes them awkward to build because you have to walk them out. Which is lame.
17:52<Stimrol_>you build and connect each one then you delete the station inbetween
17:52<xiong>Yah.
17:53<Stimrol_>yes
17:53<xiong>But then, what are you doing, Stimrol_? Playing alone or setting up a server?
17:53<Stimrol_>server
17:53<xiong>Either way, I think you can just make it a rule, if you please: No disjoint stations allowed.
17:54<xiong>I tend to prefer ingame enforcement of rules. But in this case, it's tough.
17:54<Stimrol_>yes, I was hoping there was a fix for this. Because if you can do something you will do it even it not allowed
17:54<Stimrol_>I just have to have it like this, but thanks anyway :)
17:54<xiong>Dunno. I like to run around with people who don't fight.
17:54<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i'm thinking with going with splitting early austrian engines into two: "Northern" (StEG+kkStB) and "southern" (SB)
17:56<xiong>I'd go along with Rhamphoryncus, Stimrol_; set max station spread to 8. Do you really care if stations are disjoint? 8 tiles is roughly catchment area; so it's "walkable".
17:57<Stimrol_>I like it hard :)
17:57<Stimrol_>hehe
17:57<xiong>Or, equally realistically, the distance a crew can be expected to haul cargo with industry-owned vehicles.
17:57<Rhamphoryncus>Need smaller catchment areas, hehe
17:57<Rhamphoryncus>Drop it down to, say, 2.
17:58<xiong>Nobody builds a railhead right up to the tree to be felled.
17:59<Rhamphoryncus>You can use truck depots with transfer orders
18:00<xiong>Here's what you can do if you're a real tough guy, Stimrol_: Build antennas completely surrounding your industries, right out to the rail catchment limit. Leave one-tile corridors for truck feeders.
18:00<xiong>For extra brutality, leave fewer corridors than you have players. ;)
18:00<Stimrol_>no I am playing to, this is for everybody
18:01<Rhamphoryncus>Play with hills on those antennas, so they can't walk a truck depot through them :)
18:01<Rhamphoryncus>But also consider the large catchment area of airports
18:01<xiong>?
18:01<xiong>What are you thinking, Rhamphoryncus? I was thinking solid antennas. Mind you, I hate antennas.
18:02<xiong>Strategic placement of antennas at various heights would exclude airports, too.
18:02<Rhamphoryncus>If you have a path for a road then you have a path for depots
18:03<Rhamphoryncus>hrm. I'm wrong. You can't block them so long as the road is removable :(
18:03<xiong>Well, I thought the idea would be to put a truck stop next to the industry and a single road out.
18:04<xiong>If there are more antennas than station spread, you *must* set up a feeder. No?
18:04<Rhamphoryncus>yeah
18:05<xiong>Erm, antenna_radius > station_spread + catchment.
18:05<xiong>That would be a lot of antennas. :(
18:05<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: I'm not a big railway historian. Thus if it makes sense, I've totally no issue with such split
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18:06<LordAro>night all
18:06-!-LordAro [~lordaro@host86-156-237-225.range86-156.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: "Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so."]
18:06*xiong back to chores
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18:06<@planetmaker>I'd only consider the game aspect (less the reality). Thus... :-)
18:06<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i'm not a historian either, i'm just browsing wikipedia trying to make some sense of this mass of engine types
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18:33<@Terkhen>good night
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18:48<Wolf01>'night
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19:09<@planetmaker>g'night
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19:14<Zuu>Note to self: test library code before uploading to banans :-)
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19:16<Zuu>Ironically, I have added more sub libraries to the NoGo edition of SuperLib which hasn't had very much testing in NoGo context. Though by doing so it will make it easier for me and others to test and see what works and what doesn't. :-)
19:16<xiong>Well. I'm quite certain the center tile of a 3x3 block is reluctant to build. I've definitely observed backsliding, too; where after the center builds and I remove the access road, later the center becomes grass again. This happens even in the central 16 blocks of a town now at pop. > 80,000. This just doesn't seem right. I've seen a house build as far as 3 tiles from any road.
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19:42<Zuu>Looks like chapter_ships.nut has became 100 lines shorter now. :-)
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20:50<scottbob9>Hi, i am running openttd dedicated server and cannot get shares to work. I have edited the openttd.cfg file and it still does not work. any ideas?
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21:09<Stimrol_>hello, do anyone know what happened to this setting in openttd.cfg, why is it not longer there 1.1.5 --> [station] nonuniform_stations
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21:15<Stimrol_>ahh found it, google my friend, added forum to the search then I found it
21:15<Stimrol_>- Remove: The non-uniform stations setting; it has been broken for over a year, and thus not used [FS#4456] (r21953)
21:15<Stimrol_>Sad that this do not work :(
21:16*appe breaks the somewhat autism-induced discussions with a great gift of poop to everyone.
21:17<appe>right there, on the floor
21:17<appe>its my gift to you
21:17<appe>now build train tracks around it.
21:19<Rhamphoryncus>Build pointless tracks around it? What do you think this is, minecraft?
21:20<appe>pointless?
21:20<appe>my stool deserves nothing more then being turned into efficient energy
21:20<appe>wich would require proper logistics
21:20<Rhamphoryncus>That sounds like a different industry set
21:21<appe>its a new grf.
21:21<Rhamphoryncus>Featuring: the product of appe's asshole.
21:22<appe>since my gastronomical features is somewhat swedish, id guess we have to set the proper logistics to mineral wagons.
21:23<appe>in goes beer and coal, and out goes liberalism and swag.
21:23<appe>preferably exported to citys.
21:23<appe>bah, nuff' with the lame jokes.
21:23<appe>i need to get to bed.
21:23<appe>have a good one
21:24<Rhamphoryncus>yeah, I was bailing on that conversation. Cya
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21:42<Stimrol_>This was strange, all production of I think all mines for all users went down 50% for one or two years
21:42<Stimrol_>and then slowly up
21:42-!-Stimrol_ is now known as Stimrol
21:47<Rhamphoryncus>Stimrol: economic downturn
21:47<Stimrol>what is that
21:49<Stimrol>is that part of the programming that this happens or is this some bug?
21:50<xiong>Stimrol, economic recession. Feature.
21:50<xiong>All production cut in half.
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21:51<xiong>http://wiki.openttd.org/Economy#Recession
21:51<Stimrol>okey, random thing I like that, but I cant find anything about in settings
21:52<xiong>Not an Advanced Setting. A Difficulty setting.
21:52<Stimrol>ahh nice, I like this
21:52<Stimrol>Did not find it on google because I didn't know the word for it
21:52<xiong>Join the club. I've occasionally thrashed around for half an hour looking for an Advanced Setting before I remembered to check Difficulty instead.
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21:53<xiong>I've demonstrated that the rate of backsliding is higher than the rate of fill-in. I say 3x3 is broken.
21:53<Stimrol>thank you, happy I found this irc channel, good if you have some wondering
21:54<xiong>Do I file a but against the game itself or against the town set? Does town set affect building at all? Should I run a test game with no NewGRFs?
21:55<Rhamphoryncus>Stimrol: it does actually tell you when a recession starts, but I've missed it too
21:55<Stimrol>ohh it does
21:55<Stimrol>missed it :)
21:56<Stimrol>xiong what is this, are you asking me because of my question?
21:59<xiong>Stimrol, my question is totally unrelated to your question, sorry.
22:00<Stimrol>np
22:00<xiong>For a couple of weeks now, I've been trying to understand why the center tile of a so-called 3x3 grid block rarely builds. I'm now convinced it's just not right.
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22:01<xiong>I've upgraded, tested, tried temporary access roads. Nothing works -- that is, no strategy overcomes the rate of backsliding, where a formerly built center tile returns to grass.
22:02<Stimrol>a same here 3x4 two middle is missing, i have some newgrfs
22:04<Stimrol>I think Nars change my houses, think that is the only grf that affected my houses
22:13<xiong>3x4 definitely is not worth anything; you pay every possible price.
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22:16<xiong>3x4 block is really 4x5 grid; that's 8 road tiles for 12 buildable tiles, except two won't build; so you end up with 10 tiles built, for an efficiency of 50%. That's exactly what you get with 3x3, with the center unbuilt. Also you have the inconvenience of a different repetition X and Y.
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22:18<xiong>I've seen a few cities laid out with very long 2xN sections. This approaches 67% efficiency.
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22:19<xiong>Of course, then you have the question of how your road vehicles get around. I like roads every 4 tiles; it's easy to lay out, it's sane, sensible, looks reasonable. If only it worked....
22:21<Stimrol>but it doesn't and gives you blank middle :(
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---Logclosed Sun Feb 19 00:00:58 2012