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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-02-19

---Logopened Sun Feb 19 00:00:58 2012
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00:38<Rhamphoryncus>that's.. not.. good. Testing out my timetable patch with a pax game and a couple years in what do I do? Give all my trains a conditional order jump to control maintenance.
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00:41<Rhamphoryncus>Maybe a way to control what orders are timetabled.. or a way to have sub-routes.
00:41<Rhamphoryncus>Something to sleep on.
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02:13*andythenorth needs a list to return in a predictable order
02:13*andythenorth needs a dict to return in a predictable order
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02:15<andythenorth>solved (ugly)
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03:06<andythenorth>my png names are getting insanely long
03:08<Pulec>ban belated
03:09<Pulec>damn i have to set longer timeout, this server falls frequently
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03:17<@Rubidium>Pulec: you setting longer timeouts won't help; you're disconnected from the IRC server's side
03:18<Pulec>it didnt disconnected me before
03:18<Pulec>I had set timeout for about 6 minutes
03:22<@Rubidium>well, you're very regularly "ping timeout"-ing
03:23<@Rubidium>and generally if a connection isn't back after a minute, it's lost
03:26<andythenorth>how droll
03:26<andythenorth>I'm passing an object to a function defined on a child object of the object
03:26<andythenorth>so effectively I'm passing the object back into itself in some insane recursive fashion :P
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04:55<@Terkhen>good morning
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05:11<@Terkhen>hi planetmaker
05:12<@planetmaker>btw, 1st round of votes for the title game is up now :-)
05:12<@Alberth>moin all
05:12<@planetmaker>IMHO average quality of submissions is better than last year :-)
05:12<@Terkhen>hi Alberth
05:12<@planetmaker>hi Terkhen & alberth
05:12*Terkhen will check it this later :)
05:13<@Alberth>so many things to do, so little time :p
05:13<@planetmaker>:-) yeah
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05:40<@Alberth>Pulec: could you please fix your connection?
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05:46<Pulec>I am sorry, will try it soon as possible, just finnish some long download
05:46<Pulec>for the time being I will quit reconecting
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05:56<Zuu>planetmaker: Oh, you made me think that you had presented the results of round1. :-)
05:56<@planetmaker>Zuu: sorry, not yet :-)
05:56<@planetmaker>and I'm afraid I think I shouldn't even comment on the current standings
05:56<Zuu>I see that voting ends 29 feb.
05:57<@planetmaker>yeah. Same schedule as last year basically
05:57<Zuu>Indeed, you shouldn't.
05:57<@planetmaker>14 days for this round for people to make up their mind
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07:04*andythenorth ponders
07:05<FLHerne>Auto-generated ships?
07:09<andythenorth>considered it
07:10<FLHerne>erm...something even stranger then?
07:10<andythenorth>could draw the stern / prow, then generate the middle part of the hull
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07:12*andythenorth chokes on tea
07:12<andythenorth>someone showed me minecraft (again) the other day btw
07:12<andythenorth>probably best I don't look too closely at minecraft
07:12<andythenorth>looks like it could....suck time
07:13<FLHerne>It does. Seriously.
07:13<LordAro>i would second that comment
07:13<FLHerne>I spent quite some time building a fax machine out of m^3 blocks...
07:15<LordAro>TrueBrain: appears to be non-functional
07:16<@orudge>It looks like a network issue; I can access it from another German server of mine, but that's with the same ISP
07:16<@orudge>can't access it from outside that network
07:16<LordAro>FLHerne: i'm more interested in the redstone aspect myself
07:17<LordAro>orudge: did i steal your bug report? :P
07:17<FLHerne>It had a LOT of redstone. Encoded patterns made out of wool and transmitted as binary.
07:17<@orudge>LordAro: well, I reported it directly about two minutes before you :p
07:18<@orudge>but itw as only because of the guy in #tycoon that I noticed it
07:18<FLHerne>Should provbably get back on topic though.
07:18<LordAro>orudge: i saw that too :) but i guess you mesaged personally
07:20<andythenorth>Alberth: the pixel generator is now in better shape....but I think it could be much cleaner
07:20<andythenorth>the gestalt composes a lot of stuff which could be composed into objects provided by the pixa package
07:20<@Alberth>cleaning is a never-ending process :)
07:21<@Alberth>sounds good
07:21<andythenorth>I'm not sure how to approach it yet. I'm going to work on the custom gestalt stuff a bit more
07:22<andythenorth>but it looks like the following could be classes: pixel, pixelsequence, colourset
07:22<andythenorth>pixel is already done in a small standalone module
07:22<@Alberth>yeah, that's where it is going to break so you want to make sure that one works at least
07:22<@Alberth>oh, that's what P means :D
07:22<andythenorth>I'm trying to figure out how this could be packaged so I or others can reuse it in other sets
07:22<andythenorth>I don't want to be enslaved by copy-paste :P
07:23<andythenorth>I need it for FISH ;)
07:23<andythenorth>and CHIPS
07:23<andythenorth>and HEQS...and ...
07:23<@Alberth>and YAGATNNG ?
07:24<@Alberth>(yet another great andythenorth newgrf) :)
07:24<andythenorth>yay, I guessed correctly :)
07:24<@Alberth>bummer, it was too easy thus :)
07:27<@Alberth>In general, you only find flaws in the design by using it. Make it nice, and start deploying. When finding flaws, don't give in to hacky solutions but make a proper solution instead.
07:28<andythenorth>my code is clunky right now
07:29<andythenorth>but can be cleaned
07:29<andythenorth>I've got a lot of function calls like foo(offset=offset, load=load)
07:29<andythenorth>which could probably drop the keywords, but I like keywords :P
07:30<andythenorth>otherwise it's a lot of hunting for what parameters mean
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07:33<@Alberth>that's why you give variables a good name ;)
07:33<@Alberth>imho 'offset' and 'load' are too generic, but that's perhaps my lack of domain knowledge
07:34<andythenorth>they were made up examples in this case, but close...
07:37<Mazur>Are the recycling industries supposed to be functional in the current version?
07:38<Mazur>OTTD 1.2.0-beta4 with FIRS 0.7.0M
07:39<@Alberth>how are they non-functional?
07:39<andythenorth>Mazur: what date in game?
07:39<Mazur>Someone is dropping engineering supplies in the recycling depot, and nothing happens.
07:39<Mazur>Mazur: 28 Aug 2109
07:40<andythenorth>Mazur: they're not supposed to accept ENSP - it's a bug ;)
07:40*andythenorth checks the tickets
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07:40<Mazur>Stable Server if you want to look.
07:40<andythenorth>resolved, but not released (nightly build has it)
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11:37*andythenorth hmms
11:39<andythenorth>industry sprites could be pre-composited
11:40<andythenorth>making the tile action 2s simpler
11:41<andythenorth>seems a little regressive though
11:47<andythenorth>currently industry tiles are composed with multiple sprites in varaction 2 (simple, extended or advanced)
11:47<andythenorth>advanced layouts where multiple buildings, trucks etc are drawn could be simplified
11:48<andythenorth>by compositing them into one png automatically
11:48<andythenorth>then inserting that png as 'building'
11:48<andythenorth>this possibly isn't better...or wise
11:52<andythenorth>Alberth: I've never subclassed anything in python, but it seems like each gestalt might benefit from subclassing a generic gestalt class....
11:52<andythenorth>does that sound in any way wise?
11:54<@Alberth>your timing for needing me is pretty good btw; my highlighting is not working atm if I am at another desktop, but you seem to ask me a question just before I look again :)
11:57*Alberth is afk for dinner
12:11<Eddi|zuHause>hmz... ÖBB is lacking one or two diesel engine generations in the 1980s and 1990s... but i guess we already know that problem from DB...
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12:36<andythenorth>what I need to do is pass pixel sequences as fully-fledged objects to the pixa renderer, instead of iterables
12:36<andythenorth>then I can provide methods to handle things like randomisation
12:36*andythenorth has reinvented Kai's power tools :P
12:38<Pixa>This ingenious and inspired name sure is going to get annoying...
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12:41<andythenorth>sorry :)
12:41<andythenorth>I blame Rubidium
12:41<andythenorth>it's Rubidium's fault
12:41<andythenorth>it was all Rubidium
12:42*andythenorth will highlight Rubidium often to make up for spurious pixa highlights
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12:43<Pixa>We could always just have a lengthy discussion about examples of highly reactive group 1 metals...
12:43<Pixa>of which Rubidium happens to be one
12:45<andythenorth>or I could rename the module to pixa renderer
12:45<andythenorth>or pixar :P
12:45<andythenorth>which is problematic
12:46<@Alberth>piksa :)
12:47<Pixa>I don't mind
12:47<Pixa>I'm honoured that a package in OTTD was named after a lurker on the IRC channel with a particularly unreliable internet connection
12:47*andythenorth will try another gestalt
12:47<andythenorth>box trailer is...too easy :P
12:47<andythenorth>maybe a flat trailer with load sprites
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12:47<andythenorth>that will demand compositing
12:50*andythenorth thinks generating lots of spritesheets might be slow
12:50<andythenorth>>2s to do 16
12:53<@Alberth>you cannot draw that fast :)
12:54<andythenorth>~30 cargos, 6 body styles, 2 trailer types, 4 lengths
12:55<andythenorth>@calc 30 * 6 * 2 * 4
12:55<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 1440
12:55<andythenorth>@calc 1440/16
12:55<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 90
12:55<andythenorth>3 mins
12:55<andythenorth>c'est la vie
12:55*andythenorth wonders about a dep check
12:57<andythenorth>some interesting effects could be achieved by accident
12:57<andythenorth>'cut away' anyone? :P
12:58<andythenorth>^ reveals how I'm cheating with the loads :)
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13:23<LordAro>TrueBrain: sortable wikitables seem to be broken (
13:34<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r23965 /trunk/src/ (3 files): -Fix [FS#5070]: Refittability should never depend on the current capacity of a vehicle.
13:39<Rhamphoryncus>andythenorth: they can look better if they're bulging out the top slightly
13:39<Rhamphoryncus>and do you have wood yet?
13:39<@Alberth>and steel and batteries :p
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13:49<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r23966 /trunk/src/lang/ (43 files in 2 dirs):
13:49<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:49<CIA-1>OpenTTD: latvian - 47 changes by Parastais
13:49<CIA-1>OpenTTD: lithuanian - 56 changes by Stabilitronas
13:49<CIA-1>OpenTTD: spanish - 9 changes by Terkhen
13:49<CIA-1>OpenTTD: swedish - 6 changes by Zuu
13:49<CIA-1>OpenTTD: urdu - 95 changes by haider
14:05<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23967 /trunk/src/saveload/saveload.cpp: -Fix-ish: don't fix road ownership of standard road stops each time you load a savegame, only when loading an old one
14:07<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23968 /branches/1.2/: [1.2] -Branch: there we go...
14:08<@Alberth>2 of your patches rolling into the real world :)
14:08<LordAro>Rubidium: is r23967 correct?
14:09<frosch123>LordAro: oh, btw. basesets should also be able to show readme and licence and stuff ^^
14:10<LordAro>bit late now :L
14:11<frosch123>you mean if the world ends in 2012, it would never make it into a stable? :p
14:12<frosch123>maybe you should ask a priest of you religion, whether they play trunk in heaven :p
14:13<LordAro>i'll just go and do that :)
14:14<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23969 /trunk/ (10 files in 8 dirs): -Codechange: trunk heads to 1.3 now
14:18<LordAro>ha, i just loaded that webpage of the branch diff :)
14:18<LordAro>slooooww loading :)
14:18<frosch123>yeah, rb always does those big commits without splitting
14:20<@Rubidium>what splitting? Nothing got changed. The diff is just empty
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14:26<frosch123>i could now make a comparison to a certain german nobleman, but most here would probably not get it
14:26<Zuu>frosch123: yea readmes for basesets and libraries :-)
14:26<Zuu>More readmes to the people :-)
14:26<frosch123>readmes are not exactly visible in any gui but the content download
14:27<frosch123>but yes, maybe the content gui should also get those buttons
14:28<Zuu>viewing offline readmes in the online content download gui?
14:29<frosch123>yeah, only from downloaded stuff
14:29<frosch123>[20:26] <frosch123> readmes are not exactly visible in any gui but the content download <- s/readmes/libraries/
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14:30<Zuu>That said, if you are going to use a library you will probably still have to untar it and look at the public functions unless you doument the entire library API in the readme.
14:31<Zuu>A readme would instead be a way to describe the library in more than 500 characters.
14:31<LordAro>imo, libraries are for developers only, therefore are not needed for the 'end-user'
14:32<@Alberth>Zuu: doesn't squirrel have some standard documentation system, like eg doxygen ?
14:32<Zuu>Alberth: Not that I'm aware of. At least I don't use any standard documentation system in my code.
14:32<Zuu>Other than some occianaly ideas to follow some standard :-)
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14:34<@Alberth>in my view, that would give you much more room to document things
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14:36<@Rubidium>use something doxygeny and make a nice API website for each of the libraries
14:36<@Rubidium>preferably keeping api versions of the different releases
14:40<Zuu>that would be nice. Though I don't think I will spend my time on doing that for eg. SuperLib. The current situation is not that bad. And I agree with LordAro that libraries doesn't need to have readmes visible in the game. Developers should know how to open a tar file. :-)
14:40<@Rubidium>any decent OS does that transparantly ;)
14:40<LordAro>yay! agreement! :)
14:41<@Rubidium>reminds me of something
14:41<Zuu>SuperLib have some sort of documentation of each class at the top of each file.
14:53<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23970 /branches/1.2/ (6 files in 4 dirs): [1.2] -Prepare: 1.2.0-RC1
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15:08<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23971 /tags/1.2.0-RC1/: -Release: 1.2.0-RC1; tag you're it!
15:08<@Rubidium>there LordAro... another massive unsplit diff ;)
15:16<Eddi|zuHause>hm... looks like it's going to be Gauck then...
15:17<@Rubidium>the new Wulff?
15:18<Eddi|zuHause>Gauck was already the opposition candidate in the last election
15:19<Eddi|zuHause>which also got quite some votes from the government fractions
15:19<Eddi|zuHause>and had the backing of the majority of the population
15:20<Eddi|zuHause>but the president is not elected directly, so that doesn't mean much
15:21-!-SpComb^_ is now known as SpComb^
15:23<@planetmaker>his biggest "credit" is that he lead the "Stasi"-administration which deals with the investigation of the secret internal police of the GDR
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15:23<@planetmaker>and that he was a civil rights advocate in the GDR afair
15:24<@Rubidium>but he'd be basically only cutting ribbons, wouldn't he?
15:24<Eddi|zuHause>he'd be "representing" and "being a role model"
15:24<frosch123>yes, but he should not steal the golden scissor while doing so :p
15:26<Eddi|zuHause>he's made some controversial comments in the past two years, and he's rather old. that's basically the criticism i heard so far
15:26<@Rubidium>isn't that called "experience"?
15:28<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: the Dutch and English equivalent-ish of your president are older, so he's not that old ;)
15:28<supermop>oh yeah, your president resigned, right?
15:29<@Rubidium>and the one of Belgium's older as well
15:29<Eddi|zuHause>he already "got resigned" two months ago, he just took quite long to realize it :p
15:29<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: but those are not elected people
15:30<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: as if your one is elected... it's rather "lobbied" I'd say
15:30<Eddi|zuHause>however undemocratic the election is...
15:30<frosch123>supermop: he resigned just before the parliament had to decide about nullify his immunity
15:31<supermop>ah yeah
15:31<Eddi|zuHause>we should have done something like with the mayor of duisburg
15:31<supermop>only loosely been following it - i am way behind on my news
15:32<Eddi|zuHause>the first mayor to be evicted from office through an out-of-schedule election
15:32<supermop>we call those recall elections here
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>it took them like two years to pull that off
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15:37<Eddi|zuHause>the next open discussion is whether the not-anymore-president should get the 200.000€ per year "pension" for being just 1.5 years in office
15:38<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: well, it is unlikely that he ends up in jail for more than 1 year; so that discussion is needed :p
15:39<Eddi|zuHause>the law says he should get it for finishing a full (5 year) term, or for resigning out of political or health reasons before that
15:39<Eddi|zuHause>the argument is that he resigned for personal reasons
15:41<SpComb>what's resigning for a political reason?
15:41<Eddi|zuHause>all previous presidents finished at least one full term, so the discussion never came up before
15:41<@Rubidium>just find a nutjob and you don't need to do the whole discussion
15:42<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: did köhler finish a term?
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>he was like a year into his second term when he resigned
15:43<frosch123>hmm, then i somehow did not notice his reellection
15:43<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: i guess when he resigns because veto-ing a law doesn't make enough of an impact, or something like that
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15:44<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: it was one of those "nobody really cares" things
15:44<SpComb>right, so he should have raised some arbitrary political issue, and then resigned :)
15:45<@Rubidium>did Wulff maybe screw you by signing acta before resigning?
15:45<@Rubidium>or can't he do that?
15:45<Eddi|zuHause>haha :p
15:45<@Rubidium>it'd be a big "fuck you" statement to everyone trying to get rid of him
15:46<Eddi|zuHause>i think the president can't really do anything if the government doesn't tell him to
15:46<Eddi|zuHause>but i'm not an expert
15:49<SpComb>rouge president
15:49<SpComb>Finland used to have a President that ran the government
15:49-!-Pixa [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:49<SpComb>it was scary times when we had the Soviet Union as a neighbour
15:56<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: a law won't become effective if not signed by the president. And he's got the right to check the laws for conformity with the constitution
15:57<@planetmaker>iirc Köhler kinda at least delayed some laws quite a lot by that. Or even kinda stopped it, like the insane anti-terrorist law Schäuble devised which would have allowed to shoot down passenger planes just because there's a terrorist in it who hijacked it successfully
15:58<frosch123>planetmaker: he can forward laws to the consitutional court before signing them
15:58<Eddi|zuHause>the plane-hijacking law is the only law that got vetoed in the last 20-ish years
15:59<Eddi|zuHause>another one was pushed back: the internet-censorship law, but it was eventually signed (even though it was already clear that it was not to be enforced)
16:04<LordAro>can i just confirm: the old way of loading 32bpp sprites has been removed entirely, yes?
16:05<+michi_cc>@openttd commit 23898
16:05<@DorpsGek>michi_cc: Commit by michi_cc :: r23898 /trunk (8 files in 4 dirs) (2012-02-04 22:19:02 UTC)
16:05<@DorpsGek>michi_cc: -Remove: PNG sprite loader.
16:05<@planetmaker>LordAro: yes
16:06<LordAro>just checking
16:06<LordAro>Jupix was a little put out about it
16:06<LordAro>understandable really
16:07<@Rubidium>he had to redo everything anyhow
16:08<LordAro>i guess, but until that is done, there is no way of loading 32bpp sprites at all
16:09<+michi_cc>Consider it an incentive *evil grin*
16:11<@Rubidium>LordAro: you have to use the ancient patched version anyhow for his sprites
16:11<LordAro>michi_cc: :)
16:12<+michi_cc>I guess they'd at least need some retouch for the recolouring.
16:12<LordAro>Rubidium: not for normal zoom
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16:22<LordAro>also, there is no news/forum post about the RC1
16:24*Rubidium blames someone
16:25<Rhamphoryncus>Rubidium: You can blame me if you'll review my patch ;) (which I haven't posted yet.)
16:25<frosch123>@topic set 1 1.1.5, 1.2.0-RC1
16:25-!-DorpsGek changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.1.5, 1.2.0-RC1 | Website: * (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, ever | English only
16:25<@Rubidium>though one part is one of the mirrors being horrendously slow
16:25<@Rubidium>almost took longer to push the binaries than to build them
16:26<@Rubidium>so it actually just finished building
16:26<@Rubidium>besides that there are some other dependencies not quite reading for the news messages
16:26-!-lmergen [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:28<Rhamphoryncus>appe: never gets old
16:28-!-lmergen [] has joined #openttd
16:28<appe>fun thing with george is that he is personally very active on the intarwebz
16:28<appe>that is, no agents or shit in between, but george and his opinions
16:28<appe>i like t
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16:34*LordAro dutifully adds RC1 to the wiki page
16:38<Rhamphoryncus>How long is the release cycle usually?
16:39<LordAro>(in other words, expect a stable release on 1 April)
16:39<@Terkhen>I did not say that :)
16:40<Rhamphoryncus>Well gee, that's predictable ;)
16:41<@Rubidium>until we screw you over and really make a special April fools release ;)
16:49-!-Progman [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:50<LordAro>still should've done that for 1.0
16:50<LordAro>then just released it proper a couple months later :)
16:51-!-lmergen [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:52*andythenorth votes for bed
16:52<andythenorth>compositing load sprites can wait until tomorrow
16:52<andythenorth>I need to learn how PIL uses masks / alpha
16:53*Rhamphoryncus votes against bed, just to be difficult
16:53*andythenorth shrugs
16:53<Rhamphoryncus>You're not anti-democratic, are you?
16:53<Rhamphoryncus>Republican and/or Democrat!
16:54*andythenorth favours 'one man, one vote'
16:55*Rhamphoryncus incites the senate against you
16:55<frosch123>andythenorth: sounds ancient greekish
16:56<andythenorth>frosch123: I am the one man, I have the one vote :)
16:56*Rubidium waves to neo
16:57*Rhamphoryncus disconnects neo's virtual boy so he can't pretend to fly anymore.
16:59*andythenorth wonders if androids dream of electric pixel generators
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>the spartans actually had two kings
17:01<Rhamphoryncus>andythenorth: would that make you an android?
17:02-!-JVassie [~James@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:02<andythenorth>Rhamphoryncus: would I know if I was?
17:03*andythenorth -> bed. good night
17:03<Rhamphoryncus>I'm too lazy to put together a clever reply
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17:04-!-frosch123 [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
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17:11<Nat_as>what resolution are TTD sprites?
17:11<@planetmaker>250401 dpi
17:11<Nat_as>i mean per tile
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17:11<@planetmaker>depends on the zoom level then
17:11<__ln__>one house per tile
17:11<@planetmaker>63 x 31
17:11<Eddi|zuHause>64px from left corner to right corner
17:11<Eddi|zuHause>32px from top corner to bottom corner
17:12<Nat_as>ahh that's what I thought
17:12<Nat_as>yeah 32 from top to bottom because isometric
17:13<@planetmaker>it's actually dimetric. not isometric
17:13<Nat_as>but things will probably be taller than that because most objects extend up out of there grid square.
17:13<Nat_as>oh it is?
17:13<Nat_as>what's the diffrence?
17:13<Eddi|zuHause>it's not 30°
17:13<Nat_as>I do remember there being some diffrence between OTTD and Simutrans sprites
17:13<Eddi|zuHause>but more like 26.5°
17:13<Nat_as>so how does that effect the whole vanishing point thing?
17:13<Eddi|zuHause>= #arctan(1/2)
17:14<Nat_as>I thought Isometric just meant that parallel lines never meet?
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>there's no vanishing point, it's a parallel projection
17:14<Nat_as>when looking at the sprites, it seems straight lines have the same 1 up to across pixel angle.
17:14<Nat_as>1 up 2 across
17:15<Eddi|zuHause>yes, hence arctan(1/2)
17:15<Eddi|zuHause>but isometry defines the angle as arcsin(1/2)
17:15<Eddi|zuHause>which this is not
17:16<Nat_as>I don't understand?
17:17<Nat_as>grid squares are twice as wide as they are tall right?
17:17<Eddi|zuHause>"parallel projection" means parallel lines in the original are also parallel in the projection
17:17<Eddi|zuHause>"isometry" is a special parallel projection, with a defined angle
17:18<Eddi|zuHause>our angle differs from the one defined for "isometry", so ours is not "isometry"
17:18<Eddi|zuHause>what's the difficulty?
17:18<Nat_as>which is simutrans?
17:18<Nat_as>and sim city 2000?
17:18<Nat_as>because I've always called thoes isometric
17:18<Nat_as>am I using the wrong word?
17:18<Nat_as>or is OTTD somehow diffrent?
17:19<Eddi|zuHause>it's very common to use "isometry" loosely for all those games, but technically it's not correct
17:19<Nat_as>I thought I was triping
17:20<Nat_as>it's probably my favorite format
17:21<Nat_as>I love building and Turn based strategy games that use it.
17:21<Eddi|zuHause>also technically, "dimetric" isn't correct either
17:21<Nat_as>what should it be called then?
17:22<Eddi|zuHause>the right generalisation is "axonometric"
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17:24<Rhamphoryncus>I wonder where in history that confusion was made
17:24<Nat_as>wikipedia seems to say Axomomentic is a general term for 3d to 2d, and that isometric refers to this specific angle
17:25<Rhamphoryncus>that's exactly what this says:
17:26<Rhamphoryncus>isometric = all dimensions the same, dimetric = two dimensions the same, trimetric = none of the dimensions the same
17:26<Nat_as>so is OTTD 120 or 105 deg?
17:28<Nat_as>what is it then
17:28<Nat_as>how does that add up?
17:28<+michi_cc>OpenTTD is dimetric, but there's more than one possible dimetric projection.
17:29<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 180/pi*atan(1/2)+90
17:29<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 116.565051177
17:29<+michi_cc>Dimetric only means that two of the three angles are identical, not that they are exactly 105°.
17:30<+michi_cc>SimCity 4 for example is trimetric, but doesn't use the angles from the wikipedia image either.
17:30<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: at least the german wikipedia uses the term very different
17:30<Rhamphoryncus>so 116.6°, 116.6°, 126.9°
17:30<Nat_as>so will making all lines use 1 pixel up 2 pixels across look strange?
17:31<Eddi|zuHause>Rhamphoryncus: well, it does have to add up to 360° :p
17:31<Nat_as>for lines parallel to the ground and aligned with the grid that is.
17:31<Nat_as>the grid squares are twice as high as they are wide?
17:32<Rhamphoryncus>pbbbt: 180 − (360 ⋅ atan(0.5)) ∕ π
17:32<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: I'm sure you can find other dimensions for dimetric, but the one according to DIN 5 was probably the only not deleted for "no verifiable source".
17:32<Eddi|zuHause>Nat_as: that's the beauty of the arctan(1/2) angle, it fits exactly in the pixel raster
17:32<Nat_as>I thought that was isometric.
17:32<@peter1138>it's not
17:32<Eddi|zuHause>isometry is older than humans thinking in pixels :p
17:33<Nat_as>it's the most convenient for pixel artists though.
17:33<Nat_as>lol I guess so
17:33<Rhamphoryncus>Nat_as: Until this conversation I thought it was isometric too. I've even used it in my own stuff
17:33<+michi_cc>"commonly, the form of dimetric projection mistakenly referred to as 'isometric'"'
17:34<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: "it's on wikipedia, it must be right" :p
17:34<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: who says that this phrase isn't actually the "common mistake"?
17:34<Nat_as>I believe you guys now.
17:34<Rhamphoryncus>Basically, if you have a cube/box and you use isometric then the forward and backward corners will line up *perfectly*
17:35<Rhamphoryncus>Which they almost never do in games
17:35<+michi_cc>Thankfully, mathematics are around longer then wikipedia :p
17:36<Nat_as>so in other words don't fret over the actual degrees and just use the 1:2 pixels as your ruler.
17:37<Nat_as>because otherwise you will be caught up in decimels.
17:38<Nat_as>(which means reduced by a factor of 10)
17:38<Rhamphoryncus>The pixels are likely the original source anyway
17:38<Nat_as>(if there is any more or less left over then they have not been decimated)
17:40<Eddi|zuHause>maybe they were heximated?
17:40*Rhamphoryncus decimates 89.9% of Nat_as
17:41*Nat_as prefers to centimate his enemies.
17:43<Nat_as>Why aren't decimetres a thing?
17:43<@Terkhen>good night
17:43<Nat_as>it just skips to centi.
17:43<Rhamphoryncus>umm, decimeters ARE a thing
17:43<FLHerne>Chemistry seems to use dm^3 quite a lot
17:43<Nat_as>they aren't as popular as there imperial analogue though.
17:44<Nat_as>Imperial has inches feet and yards.
17:44<Nat_as>but Metric most of the time jumps from M to CM
17:44-!-cmircea [~cmircea@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:45<Rhamphoryncus>dm³ = litre
17:45<FLHerne>I know
17:45<FLHerne>It's a bit pointless, litres are easier to pronounce :D
17:45<Eddi|zuHause>my physics teacher once scolded me for using dN
17:45<Rhamphoryncus>Nat_as: I was taught dm is school but it's NEVER used
17:45<Rhamphoryncus>cm is more practical
17:45-!-kkb110__ [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:46<Nat_as>I'm not saying they DON'T exist, that's one of the benefits of metric is the orders of magnitude are implied rather than arbitrarily decided, but why leave out a useful increment?
17:46<Rhamphoryncus>Nat_as: it's not useful
17:46<FLHerne>dm would be useful for a lot of things actually
17:46<Nat_as>that seems like saying feet aren't usefull because inches and yards exist
17:46<valhallasw>FLHerne: the reason is because you can easily use fractions in the metric system
17:46<Rhamphoryncus>In fact cm is only borderline. Using only m and mm reduces the number of conversions you need
17:46<valhallasw>i.e. 1.2m makes sense
17:47<Nat_as>true I guess
17:47<valhallasw>the only reason feet are used is as N yards M feet X inches
17:47<Rhamphoryncus>1.2m = 12 dm = 120 cm = 1200 mm. It's pointless.
17:47<FLHerne>True, but a mm is only 0.1 cm
17:47<Nat_as>the only advantage of Imperial is that it's measurements are at scales useful to most human activities as opposed to mathematically defined.
17:48<Rhamphoryncus>Eventually you do gain by having different units, but the strong trend there is multiples of 3
17:48<FLHerne>So why bother with cm, we could stick to multiples of 3...
17:48<@planetmaker>how's a yard more usefule than a metre, an inch better than a cm?
17:48<Nat_as>they aren't
17:48<Rhamphoryncus>FLHerne: exactly
17:49<FLHerne>Inches are a good size to measure common objects actually
17:49<Nat_as>but MM are useless to most people
17:49<Eddi|zuHause>Rhamphoryncus: your argument is very weak
17:49<FLHerne>As are feet
17:49<Nat_as>and miles are 'bigger' than Kilometres.
17:49<Rhamphoryncus>of hecto/deca/deci/centi, the only one that gets any use is centimetre.
17:49<Nat_as>bigger is better.
17:49<Eddi|zuHause>our miles are way bigger than yours
17:49<FLHerne>5.5 feet is easier than 165cm
17:49<@Rubidium>Nat_as: so are thous
17:50<FLHerne>That's why dm would be good
17:50<Rhamphoryncus>FLHerne: 1.65 m
17:50<valhallasw>FLHerne: no. that's just your upbringing.
17:50<Nat_as>I always thought measuring height in CM was strange
17:50<Nat_as>I'd rather get height in feet or meters than inches or CM
17:50<FLHerne>Not so sure, I was brought up using mainly metric
17:50<@planetmaker>Rhamphoryncus: that's quite a bold and imho quite wrong statement wrt unit-prefixes
17:51<Rhamphoryncus>planetmaker: *shrug* It's my experience
17:51<Eddi|zuHause>Rhamphoryncus: the use of prefixes heavily depends on context
17:51<Eddi|zuHause>hecto is quite oftenly used with areas
17:51<FLHerne>I just find km and cm a bit too small for some purposes, because you need larger numbers
17:51<TWerkhoven[l]>hecta gets a lot of use in land-area for instance
17:51<@Rubidium>FLHerne: but now you're tring to determine the height difference between 5.5 feet and 4.9 feet ;)
17:51<@planetmaker>especially when 1 Giga-Angstrom equals exactly 1dm ;-)
17:52*appe distrupts the magical spells of downs syndrome induced railway code discussions with recommending the film 50/50.
17:52<Nat_as>if you need more than two digets to measure something with minimal variation, you are using the wrong measuring stick.
17:52<Nat_as>Feet and meters are better than inches and cm for measuring height.
17:52<FLHerne>It's about half a foot
17:52<FLHerne>Which is accurate enough for most things
17:53<Rhamphoryncus>appe: downs syndrome? I thought we all had aspergers?
17:53<FLHerne>Thinking of units, why are model railway scales in mm/foot?
17:53-!-peteris [~peteris@] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat]
17:53<Nat_as>5 ft 6 inches or 1.6 metres instead of 66 inches or 167 cm
17:53<appe>Rhamphoryncus: this is irc. sickness is always downs or cholera.
17:53<Nat_as>Really? they mix systems like that?
17:53<Nat_as>Probably because MM are really tiny
17:54<Nat_as>one thing imperial does badly is minitures.
17:54<Nat_as>anything smaller than an inch it breaks down.
17:54<@Rubidium>Nat_as: there are thous
17:54<@Rubidium>and 1000 thous are an inch
17:54<Nat_as>never heard of thoes ever.
17:55<Eddi|zuHause>Nat_as: but 167cm avoids the use of fractions
17:55<Eddi|zuHause>with an accuracy that is "good enough" for the average human (without a ruler)
17:55<Nat_as>well 1 meter 67 cm looks more elegant than 167 cm, even though it's more words.
17:56<valhallasw>1.67m looks even better
17:56<Nat_as>google tells me that Thous are a real thing and you did not make that up
17:56<Nat_as>not sure why they aren't used.
17:56<Nat_as>i guess if people want accuracy they switch to metric
17:57<Nat_as>even in America which supposedly hates metric, uses it all the time for professional things.
17:57<Nat_as>we just reserve imperial for casual use.
17:57<valhallasw>yeah, except the rocket propulsion guys
17:57<Nat_as>also measuring land.
17:57<@planetmaker>Nat_as: and what pressure do you have if you put one stone on a square foot?
17:57<@planetmaker>given that pressure usually is in pounds per square inch?
17:58<Nat_as>yeah PSI is another scientific measure that uses imperial.
17:58<Eddi|zuHause>every time i read "square foot" i must immediately think "Quadratlatschen" :p
17:58<Nat_as>which is strange
17:58<@Rubidium>planetmaker: don't use square foot or square inch, but the proper units for areas: perches, roods and acres
17:58<@planetmaker>it's not "scientific" :-P
17:58<appe>speaking of scientific
17:58<@planetmaker>at best it's an engineering unit.
17:58<appe>what do you guys think of the latest CERN results?
17:58<LordAro>night all
17:58<valhallasw>planetmaker: then again, how many Oersted in one Tesla?
17:58<Nat_as>yeah but engineers use metric often.
17:59<Eddi|zuHause> <-- why does that exist in a chinese translation only? :p
17:59<valhallasw>sorry, Oersted per A/m
17:59<Nat_as>i guess it depends on the job
17:59<@planetmaker>valhallasw: I can tell you that there are 10**4 Gauss in a Tesla :-P
17:59<FLHerne>For some reason, my normal unit scale seems to be mm, cm, feet, metres, miles...quite mixed really. I just use units which I think are a good size
17:59<Nat_as>I like how a meter and a yard are almost equivlent
17:59<Nat_as>as is a tone and a tonne
17:59<@planetmaker>by the same means a Euro is a USD
18:00<Nat_as>imperial ton vs metric tonne
18:00<appe>i was born in the eighties.
18:00<Nat_as>sure I'd kill somebody as an engineer like that.
18:00<appe>for me, gauss was never a unit
18:00<@planetmaker>same accuracy. But I'd not trade 1:1 with you, I'm afraid
18:00<valhallasw>planetmaker: as you probably know, cgs electromagnetism doesn't fiddle around with epsilon-0 and mu-0 but rather with a bunch of pi's and c's
18:00<Nat_as>but it's nice to play with.
18:00<appe>for me, gauss was the beginning of a word, turning into the greatest weapon in history.
18:00<valhallasw>planetmaker: so 1 Oe = 1000/(4 pi) A/m ;-)
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18:00<@planetmaker>valhallasw: sure. But... I don't like cgs. I tend to avoid that by nearly all means
18:01<@planetmaker>though I see where it comes from and where it has uses
18:01<Eddi|zuHause>the only times i use "non-metric" units is when i order "ein Pfund Hackepeter"... and even then it's a metrified pound
18:01<@Rubidium>luckily they redefined the length of a yard to be 0.9144 cm, instead of one with a gazilion decimals for accuracy
18:01<Eddi|zuHause>(i don't commonly talk about horsepowers...)
18:01<Nat_as>is a horsepower really one horse?
18:01<__ln__>oh, the temperature outside is almost 493.5 degrees Rankine now.
18:01<Nat_as>I mean even a shitty car has almost 100 of them
18:01<@planetmaker>no. It's a power unit :-P
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18:02<@Rubidium>guess I ought to go to bed
18:02<Eddi|zuHause>Nat_as: a modern day racing horse typically has less than 1hp
18:02<Nat_as>and I'm sure a hundred horses would be stronger than a civic.
18:02<valhallasw>the hp was used to compare steam engines to horse-operated winches for mines, iirc
18:02<@planetmaker>Nat_as: there's a (big) difference in the continued power and the momentary power output of any living being
18:02<Eddi|zuHause>Nat_as: 1 hp was measured by taking an average 19th century working horse and have it go in circles for one hour
18:03<Eddi|zuHause>Nat_as: modern day racing horses are bread to have very short endurance
18:03<Nat_as>so 50 horses could outpull a motorcycle with 100 hp
18:03<@planetmaker>they'd have more friction ;-)
18:03<Nat_as>lol yes traction is the big thing
18:03<@Rubidium>but in the end the motorcycle will win as the horses get exhausted ;)
18:03<Nat_as>Hmm, how are the horsedrawn carrages in the Heavy equipment set statted?
18:04<Nat_as>do they have single diget HP values?
18:04<Eddi|zuHause>they were implemented before realistic acceleration
18:04<Eddi|zuHause>and are buggy
18:04<Nat_as>actually cars don't HAVE hp values displayed
18:04<Nat_as>just max speed and cargo.
18:04<Nat_as>even though some of them are animated like trains, they are a single unit.
18:05<Nat_as>it would be nice if you could buy trailers like trains though.
18:05<@planetmaker>Nat_as: then you don't play with realistic accel
18:06<Nat_as>there needs to be a 1800s newgrif
18:07<Nat_as>heck I'd just like to be able to start in 1900
18:07<Nat_as>before 1930
18:07<Eddi|zuHause>Nat_as: anyway, the point is, you can't measure "horsepower" by having a rope pulling contest
18:08<Eddi|zuHause>because that doesn't measure the continuous power over an hour or more
18:08<appe>horses are for eating.
18:08<Nat_as>and glue
18:08<Rhamphoryncus>Nat_as: I keep starting games in 1925 or 1930 and it's painful
18:08<Nat_as>imagine a wild west newgrif with stagecoaches and steam trains
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18:09<Nat_as>can you newgrif disasters?
18:09<Rhamphoryncus>The game speed needs to be scaled to make it playable
18:09<Nat_as>like indians and bandits?
18:09<Eddi|zuHause>i believe the earliest "sane" rail newgrfs around are starting 1870-ish
18:09<Nat_as>but we had trains before that right?
18:10<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but that doesn't mean it creates sane gameplay
18:11<Eddi|zuHause>e.g. cargo and passenger production must be downscaled
18:11<Nat_as>1830 is when the first steam train happened.
18:12<Eddi|zuHause>actually both the first steam engine and the first railway were built in roman times, just nobody thought of combining both
18:12<Rhamphoryncus>The station rating stuff can't handle such slow trains
18:13<Eddi|zuHause>the problem is actually that the station rating does a very poor job of balancing the production vs. the capacity
18:14<Nat_as>station raiting is a bad mechanic anyways
18:16<Nat_as>if it could be fixed, a 1850-1930 would be a nice niche to play in thought.
18:16<Nat_as>esp if new disasters could be implemented like indians and bandits.
18:17<Eddi|zuHause>FIRS 0.7.x has an option to set station rating to 100%
18:19<Eddi|zuHause>"UTF-8 encryption"
18:20<Eddi|zuHause>haha :p
18:29<Eddi|zuHause>you know what amuses me? for over two years they have been talking pretty much every week about "the coalition will break about decision X"... and it never happens...
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18:36<Rhamphoryncus>"Who the heck uses implicit orders.. oh hey, there's one of my save games with implicit orders!"
18:37<__ln__>meanwhile in greece:
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18:39<Eddi|zuHause>who cares about greece...
18:40<__ln__>i won't once they return to drakhma.
18:40<Rhamphoryncus>I do see one advantage of implicit orders: they're grey rather than black.
18:40<Nat_as>you know
18:41<Nat_as>it would be nice if trains could try to avoid visiting stations they are not specificity sent to if possible.
18:41<Rhamphoryncus>Nat_as: non-stop
18:41<Rhamphoryncus>Which can even be made the default for newly created orders
18:42<Nat_as>oh it can be default?
18:42<Eddi|zuHause>Nat_as: they do that
18:42<Eddi|zuHause>Nat_as: if there's a (not too long) path around the station, they take it
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18:42<Nat_as>well I have had times where trains have gone the whole other way to get somewhere and I could never figure out why
18:42<Nat_as>even thought I double checked everything for blockages
18:43<Nat_as>it seemed to me taking the wrong route just because it could.
18:43<Eddi|zuHause>that has absolutely nothing to do with this, though
18:43<Nat_as>I digress.
18:44<DabuYu>Nat_as: a single wrongly placed signal can do that
18:44<Rhamphoryncus>A savegame of that can be useful
18:44<Nat_as>implicit orders are almost always a sign of something wrong for me thought
18:44<Rhamphoryncus>Or a gap in the track
18:44<Nat_as>yeah I checked for that, and could not find anything
18:44<DabuYu>Rhamphoryncus: a gap is easier to spot, a signal not that easy
18:44<Nat_as>I don't think I have that game either.
18:44<Rhamphoryncus>Yeah, ditto. This game is the first one since I started playing again
18:44<Nat_as>yeah I might have missed it.
18:44<Eddi|zuHause>Nat_as: so you'd likely never notice if they weren't there
18:44<Rhamphoryncus>DabuYu: half tile, hidden by trees at the start of a bridge..
18:45<Nat_as>but if there is implicit orders on my lists that means there is something wrong
18:45<Nat_as>it would be cool if there was a way to check for implicit orders.
18:45<Eddi|zuHause>a gap in the tracks is very difficult to spot
18:45<Eddi|zuHause>missing trackbit on maglev
18:45<Eddi|zuHause>or missing catenary
18:45<Nat_as>it's hard to spot in junctions
18:46<Nat_as>actual lines it's usualy more oubvious.
18:46<DabuYu>actually, if train can figure out routes, isn't it possible to write a check-tool for what route a new train will take from one station to the other?
18:46<Eddi|zuHause>and there's much more subtle pathfinder oddities that could make a train take a wrong path
18:48<Nat_as>yeah that's hard to prove though
18:48<Nat_as>tell people on irc your train is going the wrong way and they will tell you to check your signals aggain
18:48<Nat_as>which is fustrating because at that point you probably already have twice.
18:48<Nat_as>nobody ever assumes you already googled or read the manual.
18:49<Nat_as>the worst thing ever is when you google a bug, and all you can find is a form post of somebody asking about the same bug, only to be answered by some jerk telling him to google it.
18:49*Nat_as goes on another tangent.
18:49<Eddi|zuHause>the most obscure one i've seen is trains running in circles when all platforms are full, but happily waiting if one platform is free
18:49<DabuYu>Nat_as: you'll be surprised how many come here immediately with those questions without any checking
18:49<Nat_as>yeah I don't say it does not happen.
18:50<Nat_as>but people need to be more understanding.
18:50<DabuYu>true - i know your frustation, i had that too - but then i keep on telling 'already checked that' etc etc
18:50<Eddi|zuHause>and another one where trains are not taking the straight track, but only if a train is on a specific platform in a station across half the map
18:50<DabuYu>and the bug report too, that's quite annoying
18:50<Nat_as>the bug report is a bigger problem imo
18:51<Nat_as>if I ran a form, telling people to google it would be a bannable offense.
18:51<Rhamphoryncus>Nat_as: Advanced/Vehicles/"New orders are 'non-stop' by default"
18:51<Nat_as>anyways, I notice trucks seem to prefer making turns when possible
18:51<Nat_as>even if it's not the best idea
18:51<Nat_as>some crazy city layouts can send them in infinite loops.
18:52<Nat_as>because they seem to think that because the desitnation is to the right of them, the next right turn must be the best option.
18:52<Nat_as>only to be confronted with another turn
18:52<Rhamphoryncus>Never seen that
18:52<Nat_as>and they end up in circles
18:52<Nat_as>I have.
18:52<Rhamphoryncus>Savegame next time you see it
18:52<Eddi|zuHause>Nat_as: really, check your road connections :p
18:52<Nat_as>not sure if that's the quirk that causes it, but I have seen cities send trucks into loops
18:53<Nat_as>the truck ended up in that side of the city in the first place so there must be a way out
18:53<Nat_as>and I can see a way out
18:53<Nat_as>but the truck would rather go in circles
18:53<Rhamphoryncus>Again, savegame. There's no way to diagnose such a thing without the ability to reproduce.
18:54<DabuYu>Nat_as: i've seen that in the original tt (maybe ttd)
18:55<Eddi|zuHause>yes, original did that. but we now have a full pathfinder
18:55<Eddi|zuHause>so if there's a way, it's guaranteed to be found
18:55<DabuYu>yes, i have not seen it in openttd yet
18:56<Rhamphoryncus>The first thing I'd check if I got such a savegame is what the pathfinder settings are
18:56<Eddi|zuHause>(problem is, that may be a near-endless loop if there's no path, so some thresholds are in place to cancel the search)
18:57<Nat_as>another problem is truck turning around
18:57<Nat_as>but that is easy enough to fix
18:58<Nat_as>I like trams because it FORCES you to take care of that.
18:58<Nat_as>also double track
18:58<Nat_as>Hmm, if trams exist, why can't double track trains exist?
18:59<Eddi|zuHause>because of the map array, the construction method, and the movement pattern
18:59<Nat_as>tams are trucks and drive on the side of a tile, trains can only move in the centre of a tile?
18:59<Rhamphoryncus>IOW, it's baked in to the history of the game
19:00<Eddi|zuHause>"movement pattern" means "ability to make turns other than on tile borders"
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19:02<Eddi|zuHause>"construction method" includes things like "how do you make a connection from single to double", "how do you make branches", "how do you make crossovers", "how do you make curves in a way that you don't end up with 4 rails on diagonal tracks"
19:03<Nat_as>I remember in simutrans i participated in a few flamewars over the topic of double track
19:03<Eddi|zuHause>and "map array" is about storing the track bits, the track reservations, signals, etc. with using as few bits as possible
19:03<Nat_as>mostly because I was playing RT3 before that and it had double track
19:03<Nat_as>but that was a much diffrent game
19:03<Eddi|zuHause>if you can solve all these things, then you have a good chance of implementing this
19:03<Nat_as>focusing more on economics than track layout.
19:04<Nat_as>for instance trains would just stop and turn transparent as other trains would pass through them.
19:04<Nat_as>it allowed you to share tracks with other companies though, which is cool.
19:04<Nat_as>probably not at all practical in OTTD.
19:05<Eddi|zuHause>the next pitfall of doubletracks then is (newgrf) stations
19:05<Nat_as>the indusrial station newgrif has a "classification yard" tileset with a cosmetic 3rd track.
19:06<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but that is not how it's going to work. because that track is actually between two tiles
19:07<Nat_as>I wish the industrial stations newgrif was updaited
19:07<Nat_as>it does not have stations for all cargo types
19:07<Nat_as>but it is still the best station newgrif
19:07<Nat_as>I wish the pasinger station ones were as nice.
19:08<Nat_as>needs to be more automatic stations in general.
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20:15<Eddi|zuHause>@calc (117-25*3)/3
20:15<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 14
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---Logclosed Mon Feb 20 00:00:00 2012