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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-02-22

---Logopened Wed Feb 22 00:00:03 2012
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03:24<dihedral>good morning
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03:33<Elukka>Eddi|zuHause: i'm messing with colors to get a grasp of how to work with an essentially unlimited color palette, and i think we can get some much nicer colors without the limitations of 8bpp
03:33<Elukka>just some quick adjustments, but i think it pops out better, besides being more accurate
03:33<Elukka>and it's really easy to make them brighter or darker or whatever
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03:50<dihedral>hey ho pm
04:08<@peter1138>okay... given a string: A=Alice, B=Bob, C="Comma, test"
04:08<@peter1138>best way to parse that? :p
04:12<Eddi|zuHause>with a proper grammar?
04:12<@peter1138>don't bring my nan into this
04:13<dihedral>with a regex?
04:16<dihedral>ops, forgot to escape that last "
04:16<dihedral>of course that will not work if you start something like D="fish \" has quotes\""
04:16<Eddi|zuHause>something along the lines of: token = r"[A-Za-z]+", string=r'[^"]+', "list : ", "list : list ',' entry", "entry : token '=' token", "entry : token '=' string"
04:16<Eddi|zuHause>modulo whitespace handling
04:17<Eddi|zuHause>string = r'"[^"]*"'
04:18<dihedral>Eddi|zuHause, but you do not necessarily want to keep the quotes in the parsed content.
04:19<Eddi|zuHause>dihedral: that can be handled by an intermediate string token, that strips the quotes
04:20<Eddi|zuHause>and escaping can be done by string = r'"([^"]|\")*"' or something
04:21<Eddi|zuHause>well, actually escaping the \ might help :)
04:22<dihedral>why are you escaping ]
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09:45<Eddi|zuHause>new milestone in introducing ipv6: an actual DDoS has been witnessed :p
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12:28<welshdragon>Question: I'm hosting (on my VPS) a copy of Chill's PP, but it's 'too fast' for the clients
12:28<welshdragon>is there a solution to this?
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12:29<Rubidium>change the MILLISECONDS_PER_TICK variable?
12:29<welshdragon>is this in the .cfg file?
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12:30<Eddi|zuHause>of course not
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12:53<Eddi|zuHause> <-- no idea what's wrong with this, but openttd complains about "read past end of pseudo sprite"
12:53<Eddi|zuHause>besides, nml could optimize the *4 into a shift
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13:08<dihedral>hehe - beamer gives my facebook 'wall' a completely new feeling ^^
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13:18<Eddi|zuHause>is that an openttd bug? when a "read past end of pseudo sprite" error is encountered, all vehicles defined so far are still active...
13:21<frosch123>that depends on when the error occurs
13:21<frosch123>i.e. during which loading stage
13:21<Eddi|zuHause>i guess then varaction2 is read very late
13:21<Eddi|zuHause>but... anyone got a clue about the actual error?
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13:22<frosch123>ask nforenum?
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13:22<frosch123>you are reading var 7a without param?
13:23<Eddi|zuHause>that's supposed to be FA
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13:25<Eddi|zuHause>that happens when i try to use raw hex :p
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13:27<Eddi|zuHause>that site doesn't load
13:32<Eddi|zuHause>and of course i mistype the issue number as well :p
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13:33<Eddi|zuHause>so anyway, it's probably an nml bug that it doesn't validate using var 60+ with parameter
13:34<Eddi|zuHause>//!!Warning (86): Offset 4: Testing nonexistant variable 62. <-- my nforenum is probably slightly outdated
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13:44<frosch123>the "rdata.grf" topic is awesome :)
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r23975 /trunk/src/lang/ (french.txt norwegian_bokmal.txt unfinished/urdu.txt):
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: french - 2 changes by OliTTD
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: norwegian_bokmal - 44 changes by mantaray
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: urdu - 73 changes by haider
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13:53<Yexo>frosch123: which topic?
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13:55<frosch123>we should trademark the file extension "grf"
13:56<andythenorth>we should trademark 'lol'
13:56<andythenorth>and use the royalties for something
13:57<andythenorth>dunno what though
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14:00<andythenorth>lo Alberth
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14:00<@Alberth>hi andy
14:01*Alberth starts to lack not having a 'you got highlighted' icon at the desktop :p
14:01<@Alberth>*like, actually
14:01<andythenorth>I have bouncing dock icon :P
14:01<andythenorth>I turned off growl and such
14:01<andythenorth>too disruptive
14:02<@Alberth>anyways, I looked at your document, and I like it
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14:02<@Alberth>although the end becomes a tad unclear :)
14:03<andythenorth>it would be nice to refactor / repackage, then inflict it on others :)
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14:04<andythenorth>I don't at all mind rewriting my test gestalts to new methods
14:04<@Alberth>what is it that you want from me?
14:04<andythenorth>as much help as you can spare :)
14:05<andythenorth>and not more
14:05<andythenorth>I don't mind refactoring the code with new classes and such
14:05<andythenorth>but my python is quite clunky
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14:07<@Alberth>I don't have the picture entirely sharp yet, it needs more discussion imho to get a full understanding of what you want to have
14:07<andythenorth>there's no rush
14:07<andythenorth>I have a pattern of work-baby-interrupted sleep-work right now
14:07<andythenorth>time for coding is almost none
14:08<@Alberth>I should prepare some questions for you, I think
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14:08<andythenorth>sounds good
14:08<Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> lo Alberth <-- "lo" is too close to "lol", you have to pay royalties now :p
14:09<andythenorth>to whom?
14:09<andythenorth>is it for a good cause? :P
14:11<@Alberth>I object, it is only 2/3 of the word, and if you count the "word picture" (how to word looks if you look at it in a glance) too, less than 1/2
14:13<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: trademarks don't work like that :p
14:13<Eddi|zuHause>but you missed the previous few lines before you joined :p
14:13<@Alberth>that's kind of normal, you know :p
14:14<@Alberth>it makes me blissfully unaware of all the secret stuff discussed here :)
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14:17<andythenorth>trademarks are very hard to defend
14:17<andythenorth>trust me :)
14:18<Eddi|zuHause>if your trademark is magenta or has a T in it... :p
14:20<@Alberth>hi Terken
14:21*Alberth thinks the T in Terkhen is a trademark by Terkhen himself
14:25*andythenorth wonders if 'GPL' is trademarked as a term?
14:25<andythenorth>might be a useful one to get
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14:26<@Alberth>only useful if you are RMS :)
14:26<@Alberth>except he would never get it, I think :)
14:26<@Alberth>(as in, not having any desire to)
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14:41<@Terkhen>Terkhen is not trademarked, but it is protected by a "it's complicated to write" clause
14:43<andythenorth>my auto-complete writes it without trouble :)
14:51<@Alberth>it copies it rather than writing it :)
14:51<andythenorth>do I have copyright permission?
14:54<@Terkhen>andythenorth: you might receive an invoice soon
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15:31*andythenorth reads
15:33<andythenorth>Alberth: what's best way to answer? inline in to your questions?
15:33<@Alberth>any way that you like
15:39<andythenorth>Alberth: there's nothing I don't agree with, so nitpick reply not needed ;)
15:40<andythenorth>I don't know if the scanline renderer is needed - I haven't written the compositor yet :)
15:40<@Alberth>it was a first version to see how it worked imho
15:41<@Alberth>it looks like you want something more advanced :)
15:41<@Alberth>but perhaps changing the renderer is not the first priority
15:43<andythenorth>I think cleaning up the other pixa objects is probably more important
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15:48<@Alberth>and way more interesting :)
15:49<andythenorth>Alberth: taking some of your questions...
15:49<andythenorth>PixaSequenceCollection - somewhat overlapish with gestalt < yes
15:50<andythenorth>gestalt also knows how to handle the conventions for save, load etc
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15:50<andythenorth>and provides for different load sprites etc
15:50<andythenorth>but the sequences are a big block of code in current gestalts
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15:50<Eddi|zuHause>i find this use of the word "gestalt" weird
15:51<@Alberth>not a word borrowed from you?
15:51<supermop>gestalt has a different 'feeling' in english than german
15:51<supermop>we use it differently that you guys do
15:51<supermop>mostly in art and aesthetic theory
15:52<andythenorth>what does it mean in german?
15:52<supermop>i thought just 'design', right?
15:52*andythenorth visits the current source of all human knowledge
15:53<Eddi|zuHause>more like "shape" in general
15:53<@Alberth>andythenorth: I was wondering about the role of each object, ie what does each object do, and where is the border? Leaving it unclear maens it will get hard to separate things
15:53<andythenorth>that's a gestalt question :P
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15:53*andythenorth is being silly
15:54<andythenorth>Alberth: there seem to be quite a lot of quite small classes imo
15:54<andythenorth>although that could be fine
15:55<@Alberth>possibly, I am mostly trying to separate things, as it makes it more clear who does what
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15:55<@Alberth>perhaps a bit too much
15:56<andythenorth>I'll put your proposed classes in a new doc
15:56<@Alberth>but it is hard to judge without a concrete definition of what they should do exactly
15:57<@Alberth>on the other hand, it makes the structure also more flexible, as you can derive a new class and hook it into the structure
15:58<andythenorth>not sure how best to figure that out - talk you through making a gestalt? re-draft the spec?
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15:59<@Alberth>imho make the classes more concrete in defining their purpose, and probably also some functionality that you want to have
16:00<andythenorth>spec then
16:03<@Alberth>writing a user manual may also work. It forces you to think about what exactly should be possible, and how to write it down such that a user can understand it. Only problem is that it is a lot of work :p
16:11<andythenorth>I'm making the list of classes, but in-between work and house chores :P
16:20<andythenorth>Alberth: this lacks context - but something like a PixaSequenceCollection - what does it gain over a dict / list?
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16:21*frosch123 wonders about the correlation of the german words "Solarförderung" and "Olförderung"
16:22<@Alberth>Random guesses: Room to define/change order, handle pixa-mixing, loading/saving pixasequences (pixas :) )
16:22<@Alberth>in short, you may want to do other things than just have a mapping
16:23<andythenorth>ah ok
16:23*andythenorth was happy to construct that without help :)
16:23<andythenorth>but my dicts / lists in the gestalts got...messy
16:25<@Alberth>it often starts with simple data structs, which is good for experimenting
16:25<@Alberth>but the standard data structures cannot be simply extended in functionality
16:26<andythenorth>that's how I discovered the need for PixaSequence
16:26<andythenorth>ok - other questions were:
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16:27<andythenorth>z indexes? what are those?? < depth / drawing order when compositing
16:27<@Alberth>ah, ok :)
16:27<andythenorth>e.g. truck with 2 steel coils composited, draw the front most one over the rearmost ;)
16:27<andythenorth>flash / css term :)
16:27<@Alberth>makes sense once you hear the explanation :)
16:28<andythenorth>How would you control it? Just a fixed order, or something more fancy? < list?
16:28<andythenorth>something more fancy suggests setting bounding boxes, then calculating z positions? overkill...
16:28<@Alberth>would be fine I think, it sort of depends a bit on how many of these things you have
16:29<andythenorth>the drawing of them is controlled by magic pixels, so =< 256
16:29<@Alberth>I meant "more fancy than a fixed order" actually :)
16:29<andythenorth>did you have ideas for that?
16:30<@Alberth>a list would be a quite simple and adequate solution I think
16:30<@Alberth>but I was somewhat worried about the number of items
16:30<andythenorth>I think it should be fine
16:31<@Alberth>you could something like 'in increasing index number' over a range, and have a list of ranges
16:32<andythenorth>that would reflect how I plan to draw the pixels
16:32<@Alberth>that's a bit more compact, and would still be simple enough
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16:32<andythenorth>I'm mostly working in ranges of neighbouring indexes
16:33<@Alberth>sounds much saner than taking random pixel colours each time :p
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16:35<@Alberth>any other urgent questions? It's almost bed time for me
16:36<andythenorth>we can chew on this for a while ;)
16:36*andythenorth has to finish some actual work and go to sleep too
16:37<@Alberth>good night :)
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17:46<@Terkhen>good night
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21:46<supermop>can a tall enough bridge clear a bus stop?
21:51<Rhamphoryncus>A tunnel can go under though
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---Logclosed Thu Feb 23 00:00:10 2012