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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-02-23

---Logopened Thu Feb 23 00:00:10 2012
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02:29<andythenorth>morning
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04:18<dihedral>greetings
04:24<@peter1138>seasons?
04:24<dihedral>fake spring
04:24<Eddi|zuHause>that's not one of vivaldis compositions :p
04:27<MNIM>hahaha. no. fortunately not.
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06:06<andythenorth>display of sprites in vehicle info window - that's an unfixed issue?
06:10<andythenorth>sometimes the length seems off, but I never figured out if it was an issue in my grf
06:11<andythenorth>now there's a forum question about it...
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06:49*andythenorth ponders
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06:50<andythenorth>procedural generation of log loads....
06:51<andythenorth>not an easy problem
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07:13<CIA-1>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r23976 /trunk/src/spritecache.cpp: -Fix (r23889): Sprites of different zoom levels were not always padded correctly to a common size.
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08:42<__ln__>https://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.next.announce/browse_thread/thread/6af5808c84a771fc/042c02b1b5992dd3?pli=1
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08:44<waterfoul>is there a way to re-enable the older trains in multiplyaer
08:44<waterfoul>?
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08:50<waterfoul>lol
08:50<waterfoul>sorry wrong window
08:52<@planetmaker>in multiplayer you cannot cheat or reset newgrfs
08:53<@planetmaker>you can save the map locally, modify as needed and the reload in MP
08:54*andythenorth has brain ache
08:54<andythenorth>procedural generator :P
08:55<waterfoul>planetmaker what newgrfs would allow for the old trains to be accessable again?
08:58<@planetmaker>what are "old trains"?
08:59<@planetmaker>you mean OpenTTD default vehicles?
08:59<@planetmaker>Then I'd recommend you to use OpenGFX+ Trains
08:59<@planetmaker>along with whatever train NewGRF you use
08:59<waterfoul>yea I want to be able to build the original, non electric rail, types in 2145 for examplre
08:59<@planetmaker>But your question is umbiguous. Thus...
09:00<@planetmaker>ah. that's irreversible for an existing game
09:00<@planetmaker>start a new game and make sure to play it with "engines never expire" switched on in the adv. settings
09:00<waterfoul>I'm playing a casual ottd server and people are having startup issues with the running costs of monorail
09:00<waterfoul>so I can;t change it for the current save.... :(
09:01<waterfoul>wouldn't that just allow you to bring the old trains forward?
09:01<waterfoul>not allow you to build them later
09:02<@planetmaker>my memory is bad, and probably doesn't work: switch on that setting in single player and use "reset_engines" in the console subsequently. Then reload in MP
09:03<waterfoul>its Never expire vehicles and your right http://wiki.openttd.org/Never_expire_vehicles
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09:05<waterfoul>your right the wiki's wrong
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09:07<@planetmaker>what's wrong with the wiki's statement of "This setting will stop vehicles from going "out of date" and so they will remain available until the very end of the game." ?
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09:08<waterfoul>the name of the setting is wrong on the wiki
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09:20<@Belugas>hi hi
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09:40<Eddi|nichZuHause>gnarf...
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09:40<Eddi|nichZuHause>"the tortoisehg installer may not be used on a 64bit platform"
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09:45<Elukka>programs exist that don't run on 64 bit systems?
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09:50<Eddi|nichZuHause>Elukka: worse, it explicitly chooses to refuse to run...
09:57<__ln__>at least for tortoisesvn there are separate builds for 32 and 64.
09:58<__ln__>and i suppose that is because of the way it integrates to the Explorer.
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10:51*andythenorth ponders
10:54*dihedral chucks andythenorth in a pond
10:54<dihedral>may it be of help
10:56*Belugas clicks and types and reads and speaks and... works? yup
10:56<@Belugas>disgusting
10:57*dihedral hugs Belugas
10:57<@Belugas>frrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
10:57<@Belugas>frrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
10:57<@Belugas>frrrrrrrrrrrrr
11:18<MNIM>uhhh
11:22<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23977 /trunk/src/gfx.cpp: -Fix: don't load a game during UpdateWindows as that might trigger changing the blitter which triggers re-entrant locking
11:23<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23978 /trunk/src/video/sdl_v.cpp: -Fix: [SDL] Palette update was done too late making switching from 8bpp -> 32bpp look ugly
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11:32*andythenorth pounders
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12:12<Eddi|nichZuHause>looks like win7 on atom refuses to run dos programs...
12:12<Eddi|nichZuHause>where does dosbox put the config file on windows?
12:14<TinoDidriksen>In a .ini next to the exe, last I checked...
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12:14<Eddi|nichZuHause>where do i enable file extensions in win7?
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12:32<+glx>in explorer options, like other versions
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12:33<+glx>it's in the first dropdown (organize)
12:34<Eddi|nichZuHause>i hate windows alone for the fact that they shuffle around the interfaces on every release
12:36<Eddi|nichZuHause>right, i found the dosbox.conf: user\appdata\local\dosbox
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12:49<LordAro>evenings
12:50<@Alberth>oddings
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13:03<Rubidium>adamnings
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13:15<andythenorth>Alberth: had some thoughts on pixa
13:15<andythenorth>probably too many objects in current spec
13:15<andythenorth>think fewer will suffice
13:17<@Alberth>quite likely true
13:17<andythenorth>I think I can eliminate the compositor idea
13:17<andythenorth>it can be done with the existing render class
13:18<andythenorth>the gestalt just needs to call multiple render passes for same result
13:19<andythenorth>(rather than composing a list of renders needed, then having the compositor handle the list)
13:20<andythenorth>the P object (pixel) isn't needed either, that becomes internal to the PixaSequence object
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13:23<andythenorth>simpler = probably better...?
13:25<@Alberth>in general it is :)
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13:28*andythenorth will now mostly be bathing the babies
13:28<andythenorth>bbl
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13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r23979 /trunk/src/lang/unfinished/urdu.txt:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: urdu - 3 changes by haider
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13:53<@Terkhen>hello
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14:42<andythenorth>ho ho
14:42<andythenorth>finally something useful happens to BROS :)
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14:52<andythenorth>Alberth: I've been dumping some thoughts here: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/documents/32
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15:12<macee>Hi all. Is it possible to find out in what group a vehicle is, without opening the vehicle list?
15:13<macee>I think it would be nice if the group of the vehicle would be displayed next to the vehicle name in the vehicle window.
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15:19<@Alberth>I suspect it is not possible, but I never use groups, I consider them very useless.
15:19<@Alberth>andythenorth: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1149/ pixa mixing idea
15:20<@Alberth>of course you can have arbitrary complicated mixers, and/or stack them on top of each other in any way you like
15:20<FLHerne>Useful for autoreplacing locos for different tasks
15:20<FLHerne>Groups I mean
15:21<@Alberth>that's the main use is my guess, but I just replace one type engine with another one for all trains at the same time
15:22<@Alberth>perhaps because I use default vehicles, where the choice is not so large
15:23<@Alberth>andythenorth: what happens if one sequence overwrites a magic pixel of another colour? In particular when the overwritten pixel needs to be above the sequence overwriting it?
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15:45<andythenorth>Alberth: if one sequence overwrites a magic colour...it's just something that happened
15:46<andythenorth>I've spent a good part of the day trying to figure that out :P
15:47<andythenorth>there are multiple solutions, but none should be built in
15:47<andythenorth>(1) before any render passes, store the x,y locations of all pixels of magic colour x
15:48<andythenorth>possibly writing them to an intermediate image
15:48<andythenorth>then use in whichever render passes are relevant
15:48<andythenorth>(2) allow a PixaMixer to tell the renderer 'skip this pixel if condition(xyz)'
15:49<andythenorth>'skip' could mean 'write this pixel's colour to pixel's current colour'
15:49<andythenorth>(3) design the input files, the sequences, and the render passes in such a way that it's a non-issue. This is my preferred plan. I might try hacking on it now
15:50<andythenorth>a good case is a flat trailer, with stake sides, and two steel coils
15:50<andythenorth>the coils need to be drawn over the rear stakes, and behind the front stakes
15:50<Eddi|nichZuHause>andythenorth: solution: do not write to the same image that you read from
15:50<andythenorth>Eddi|nichZuHause: ahead of you there ;)
15:50<andythenorth>there are PIL reasons to not do that anyway
15:52<andythenorth>in the case of the steel trailer, first pass draws rear stakes, second pass draws coils, third pass draws the front stakes
15:52<andythenorth>the flat bed of the trailer can be drawn on first or second pass
15:53*andythenorth might try and code that now as an example
15:53<andythenorth>meanwhile....although the idea of loading sequences from image files is nicer than coding them....it makes putting constants into the sequence near-impossible :o
15:53<andythenorth>any ideas for solutions?
15:54<andythenorth>constant / variables /s
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15:55*andythenorth recklessly confuses constants and vars too often :(
15:55<@Alberth>rewrite pixel colours in the sequence?
15:56<andythenorth>has to be
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15:56<andythenorth>but it's half-way to just hand coding the sequence
15:56<andythenorth>you gain the x,y positions at least from the image
15:56<andythenorth>they are *not* intuitive to code by hand :P
15:57<andythenorth>Alberth: incidentally, I thought the x,y positions for a sequence should be immutable once set
15:57<andythenorth>I think it's bonkers if they can be moved around :P
15:58<@Alberth>:)
15:58<andythenorth>I considered if there are valid cases to move them, e.g. invert x values to create a reversed angle for a vehicle
15:58<@Alberth>would seem like a good idea :)
15:58<andythenorth>but in that case, the author should create their own method to read entire sequence, and write a new one, transforming as they go
15:58<@Alberth>you can easily pixa-mix it :)
15:58<andythenorth>due to lighting, the reverse case isn't as useful as it sounds :)
15:59<andythenorth>the / direction is lit differently to \ direction, not just brighter
15:59<@Alberth>yeah, I was suspecting that already :)
15:59<andythenorth>there could be a case for random x,y but I think the results would be horrible
15:59<andythenorth>better to choose a random sequence :P
16:00<andythenorth>I'll look at that when I try to make logs procedural
16:00<@Alberth>still horrible, probably :)
16:01<@Alberth>having a random sequence makes the result non-reproducable
16:01<@Alberth>which may less than ideal, perhaps :)
16:01<@Alberth>+be
16:02<andythenorth>it would vary per compile :D
16:02<andythenorth>which is a bit silly
16:03<andythenorth>random seed? :P
16:04<andythenorth>PixaSequence and PixaMixer look sensible in your paste
16:04<andythenorth>so I cold extend PixaMixer arbitrarily?
16:04<andythenorth>as long as it yields correct attributes?
16:05<andythenorth>if date.day=="tuesday" col = colours['blue'] ?
16:05<@Alberth>you probably want a number of mixers
16:05<@Alberth>but yeah, how you decide what to return is internal to the class
16:05<andythenorth>if you intend them as I think you do, I'd define a mixer for 1CC, 2CC etc
16:05<andythenorth>a mixer for each real life colour
16:05<@Alberth>3CC, 4CC, etc :)
16:06*Alberth nods
16:06<andythenorth>and mixers for cases where the entire sequence is shifted down by one colour index
16:06<andythenorth>a mixer for each cargo colour for bulk cargos...
16:06<andythenorth>can mixers by mixed? :P
16:07<@Alberth>omg, what have I caused.... :)
16:07<@Alberth>sure, a mixer behaves as a sequence, which you can mix again :)
16:07<andythenorth>this is what I'm doing already, I just miss a neat consistent interface to it :)
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16:08<andythenorth>so if I wanted 2CC and coal, I'd pass those as params to a smart mixer that understands what to do with them
16:08<andythenorth>rather than creating 2CC_coal = mixer()
16:08<andythenorth>which would be horribly combinatory
16:09*andythenorth is pleased with all this
16:09<@Alberth>give each a name, and stack them on top of each other :)
16:10<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23980 /trunk/src/video/sdl_v.cpp: -Fix (r23977): crash when starting with the 32bpp anim blitter
16:10<andythenorth>stack is exactly right
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16:12<@Alberth>unfortunately, they are not commutative nor associative, in general
16:13<andythenorth>I could write my own method to stack them :P
16:15<@Alberth>I trust you can :)
16:15<@Alberth>good night
16:16<Rubidium>night Alberth
16:16<Rubidium>sweet dreams
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16:20<Eddi|nichZuHause># or a beautiful nightmare
16:20<Eddi|nichZuHause>what a stupid song...
16:21<Eddi|nichZuHause>if i suspect a windows system is exceptionally slow because of the harddrive, how do i diagnose that?
16:22<andythenorth>copy everything to a new drive, swap it out?
16:22<TWerkhoven[l]>chkdsk?
16:22<TWerkhoven[l]>or check the smart status
16:22<Eddi|nichZuHause>i tried installing the seagate tools, but they require .net4 and that takes AAGES to install
16:24<TWerkhoven[l]>speedfan can do smart tests on hdd's
16:24<Rubidium>Eddi|nichZuHause: remove the HDD and see whether it's faster
16:24<supermop>is there a good nml rail set tutorial or should i just rip off a simple set like .se rails and drop my pngs in?
16:27<Yexo>there is the general nml tutorial, the nml documentation and you can use swedishrails as example
16:27<Yexo>but no tutorial just for a railset
16:27<Eddi|nichZuHause>they tried mirroring the hd to a similar model, but that was apparently broken
16:30<__ln__>Eddi|nichZuHause: what's the Windows® Experience Index® of the HDD?
16:31<Eddi|nichZuHause>can i get that on an xp system?
16:31<TWerkhoven[l]>no, that comes with vista and beyond
16:32<+michi_cc>I'm not totally sure if XP has it, but try perfmon.exe if present.
16:32<TWerkhoven[l]>q: why do you suspect the hdd of slowing down the system in the first place?
16:32<__ln__>that's right, but did they release some sort of "can i run Vista?" utility program for XP? (which possibly could include that score)
16:32<TWerkhoven[l]>true
16:33<TinoDidriksen>Mirroring the hdd is trivial with dd and ntfsclone...how can that break?
16:33<Rubidium>michi_cc: it does have that
16:33<Rubidium>perfmon is really ancient
16:33<Eddi|nichZuHause>perfmon seems to exist
16:34<Eddi|nichZuHause>not sure what it does
16:34<Rubidium>not sure whether it was in 3.51, but it definitely was in 4
16:35<Eddi|nichZuHause>__ln__: i suspect the disk because processor load is 10-20%
16:35<Rubidium>Eddi|nichZuHause: that's high ;)
16:36<+michi_cc>I only know how it looks like on Win7, but you should have a screen for "performance monitoring" where you can add a lot of measurements by clicking a + button somewhere.
16:36*Rubidium has a database server on a suspected broken disk at work... ~0.5% CPU, 8000+ms/s waiting on 'buffer'
16:36<Rubidium>michi_cc: does it look really ancient?
16:37<+michi_cc>Somewhat. Definitely more ancient than the 'resource monitor' (or so) that you can get via the task manager.
16:38<Rubidium>http://www.ariadne.ac.uk/issue21/nt-explorer/perfmon.gif
16:39<Rubidium>screenshots don't seem to imply it's significantly different
16:39<Rubidium>Eddi|nichZuHause: but you might want to try the test version of hd tune
16:40<Rubidium>that can run some tests including SMART tests
16:40<Rubidium>and keeps some history
16:40<Rubidium>there you might want to look at the read error rate and such
16:40<Rubidium>it only works for a few days
16:40<Eddi|nichZuHause>what i'd like to see is a simple read/write speed test
16:41<Rubidium>hd tune has that
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16:42<Eddi|nichZuHause>i can't get perfmon to display anything
16:42<Eddi|nichZuHause>it's just an empty diagram
16:42<Rubidium>then the scale's probably wrong
16:43<Rubidium>it doesn't auto adjust
16:44<Rubidium>or maybe you need to start sampling?
16:46<Eddi|nichZuHause>assume i'm stupid. what do i do?
16:46<Rubidium>go to the computer shop
16:47<Rubidium>don't have Windows at hand to figure out exactly
16:52<FLHerne>Find a hardware-test-centred Linux live CD?
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16:58<Eddi|nichZuHause>hm... i have a program that has 6000 page faults per second
16:59<Eddi|nichZuHause>(or maybe i'm making totally no sense of sysmon)
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17:19<Eddi|nichZuHause>http://pastebin.com/WrchXT2R <-- that doesn't look like healthy anyway
17:21<Eddi|nichZuHause>hm... recursive vnc doesn't seem like a bright idea :p
17:22*andythenorth renders a stake trailer with coil loads :)
17:22<andythenorth>4 pass render
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17:23<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/2520/steel_trailer.png
17:25<frosch123>night
17:25<andythenorth>Terkhen: need any graphics for OpenGFX+ Road Vehicles? :) :P
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17:27<@Terkhen>I'm not sure
17:27<@Terkhen>IIRC all cargo sprites were done
17:27<@Terkhen>and I wasn't planning to add new vehicles
17:29<andythenorth>np :)
17:29<andythenorth>I am seeking users....
17:31<supermop>could you procedurally draw a rail set?
17:31<andythenorth>...maybe
17:31<andythenorth>you'd want to draw the ballast by hand
17:31<andythenorth>maybe
17:32<@Terkhen>:)
17:32<andythenorth>actually, you probably could draw a rail set procedurally
17:32<andythenorth>the pattern is very regular for track
17:33<andythenorth>I don't know if it's a good case though
17:33<andythenorth>it's only worth setting up when you want to recolour things, change load sprites etc
17:33<andythenorth>or render multiple variations of a building from standard components
17:34<andythenorth>I guess you might save some time on drawing sleepers and such
17:35<andythenorth>supermop: got any sprites drawn yet?
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17:37<andythenorth>hmm
17:38*andythenorth -> bed
17:38<andythenorth>good night
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17:58<Eddi|nichZuHause>what's this thing that makes the screen black every time a windows security question pops up?
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18:02<@Terkhen>good night
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18:47<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: User account control. Switches to a different desktop session to stop those evil key loggers.
18:51<+glx>and it's not black, it's just a darker palette :)
18:56<+michi_cc>Transparency recolour :)
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20:13<Demonen>Hi all
20:14<Demonen>When I'm in a multiplayer game, will autorenew happen even if I'm not connected?
20:15<Demonen>In 1.1.5, that is
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23:13<Rhamphoryncus>mmm logic train :D
---Logclosed Fri Feb 24 00:00:16 2012