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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-02-24

---Logopened Fri Feb 24 00:00:16 2012
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04:58<Demonen>In 1.1.5, when I'm in a multiplayer game, will autorenew happen even if I'm not connected?
05:00<@planetmaker>once issued as order: yes
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05:14<Demonen>issued as order? I set it in my (client?) options.
05:14<Demonen>Is that synched to server?
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05:17<Eddi|nichZuHause>i have a feeling hd problems get worse the longer you diagnose them
05:18<Eddi|nichZuHause>it's now at "system directory <something> is broken or missing, please boot from install-cd in the rescue mode"
05:20<Demonen>Of course it gets worse
05:21<Demonen>If it's a physical problem it can only get worse. HDDs don't grow back :-D
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05:38<__ln__>Demonen: yes they do.
05:41<Demonen>__ln__: Excellent, thank you.
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06:06<Rhamphoryncus>andythenorth: since I know you can make vehicle sets I've got a stupid request for you: speed strip wagon. Very short, carries nothing. Only purpose is to make a train go around curves faster.
06:07*Rhamphoryncus emphasizes the "stupid"
06:07<@planetmaker>he has no single train set. And that requires deep integration within a trainset
06:07<@planetmaker>and yes: stupid ;-)
06:08<@planetmaker>as what you request is mostly - technically - an engine property. If at all.
06:08<@planetmaker>the curve speed limit is also a track property...
06:08<Rhamphoryncus>No, it requires nothing except a very short wagon
06:08<@planetmaker>thus .. it won't quite work anyway
06:08<@planetmaker>and how do you think that works technically?
06:08<Rhamphoryncus>Curve length is counted in wagons, so sticking super short wagons in your train will make the curve longer
06:08<@planetmaker>as in nml / nfo / grf specs?
06:09<@planetmaker>hm... number of wagons between bends... maybe
06:09<@peter1138>yeah that curve length thing needs to change
06:10<Rhamphoryncus>That's what I said. Curve length is counted in wagons
06:10<@peter1138>just needs Somebody™ to do it
06:11<Rhamphoryncus>Making it incorporate wagon length would "fix" it, but I dislike the whole mechanic. If it was separate from realistic acceleration I'd turn it off.
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06:12<@peter1138>yeah, we like trains travelling at 250mph+ around tight bends :D
06:13<@peter1138>(why is it dependent on train length at all?)
06:14<@planetmaker>in order to compensate for the insane scale probably
06:15<Rhamphoryncus>Problem is after a certain length it becomes a hard cap (stops going up), which means certain speeds of trains can NEVER maintain speed around a curve.. unless you bypass it by making them short enough to never count as on a curve
06:15<Rhamphoryncus>Counting the orientation of the wagons is just a really cheap way to determine if a train is turning
06:17<Rhamphoryncus>Fixing it would require something like.. a look-ahead pathfinder that counts through X number of tiles and path-allocates them, even for block signals. That path could then be used to count corners even for really short trains
06:18<Rhamphoryncus>Then change the scale so the speeds go up at predetermined thresholds.. and finally, adopt nutracks to let you upgrade as years go on
06:19<Rhamphoryncus>Only one of those is easy/likely :P
06:23<Rhamphoryncus>The really issue with the mechanic is that, without nutracks, it boils down to either building correctly (wide turns, no slowdown) or incorrectly (slowdown). There's nothing to upgrade as years go by, so using small curves early on (when trains are too slow to trigger it) is just making more work for yourself later
06:24<@planetmaker>so introducing high-speed sharp-corner trains makes for even less work. Sounds... like a good improvement ;-)
06:24<@planetmaker>and would remove the last bit for needing proper building. We should also enable again 90° turns
06:25<@planetmaker>so indeed I totally see no issue with that. Thus the current behaviour is even realistic
06:25<Rhamphoryncus>No, I don't mind having a certain minimum curve size
06:25<@planetmaker>slow, old trains can go around sharper bends unharmed than new high-speed ones
06:25<@planetmaker>it's one of the reasons to build new tracks
06:27<Rhamphoryncus>Why not do it right in the first place? There's nothing stopping you.
06:27<Rhamphoryncus>Maybe waiting for town rating to climb enough to bulldoze buildings that are in the way
06:28<@planetmaker>of course you can do it right in the first place. So what?
06:29<Rhamphoryncus>So why make extra work for yourself?
06:30<@planetmaker>I don't. But where's exactly your issue now?
06:31<Rhamphoryncus>The aggravating issue is that certain trains just can't be built for. No curve will handle a long, fast train.
06:31<@planetmaker>of course it will
06:32<Rhamphoryncus>20 tile lev4. What curve is required?
06:32<Rhamphoryncus>6 is the cap
06:34<@planetmaker>well. Build two trains. 20 tiles is too long anyway ;-)
06:34<@planetmaker>it's a train longer than an average-sized town
06:34<@planetmaker>or build proper tracks which reduce that penalty
06:34<@planetmaker>of course such track set doesn't exist
06:35<Rhamphoryncus>2 trains, 10 tiles each, again hits the cap
06:35<@planetmaker>you're speaking of some kind of cap while not making clear what you cap and where and how :-)
06:36<@planetmaker>10-tile trains hit no cap on my tracks. Maybe I use 10-tile curves then. So what?
06:36<Rhamphoryncus>The formula used is 231-(13-X)**2, where X is the number of wagons on the curve and is capped at 12. The limit is then doubled for maglev
06:38<Rhamphoryncus>So 13 wagons is the maximum
06:38<@planetmaker>for what?
06:38<Rhamphoryncus>to not be slowed by a curve
06:38<@planetmaker>what curve?
06:39<@planetmaker>A single curve never slows down
06:39<@planetmaker>an s-curve never slows down
06:39<@planetmaker>a double-curve in the same direction where the train covers both: that will slow down
06:39<Rhamphoryncus>A curve is two turns. s-curves are special cased
06:39<@planetmaker>generally it's two within the train length in the same direction
06:40<Rhamphoryncus>The game doesn't support hills, bridges, or tunnels with diagonal track, so you HAVE to use a "double curve"
06:40<@planetmaker>And I see really no issue to require 7-tile curves for a 600 km/h maglev train (=14 wagons)
06:40<@planetmaker>why do I have to use a double curve for that reason?
06:40<@planetmaker>Build properly and you don't
06:40<@planetmaker>Proper rail junktions *need* space
06:40<Rhamphoryncus>You don't have to turn the track?
06:41<Rhamphoryncus>The game supports mammoth trains and I'd like to use them
06:41<@planetmaker>then do that
06:41<MNIM>muh, I usually use a five-minimum curve (as my most common trains are five tiles long) but I also frequently use 14-long freight trains
06:41<Rhamphoryncus>But make sure I pick slow engines?
06:42<@planetmaker>No, pick fast engines. But build properly. Or accept speed penalty for tight corners.
06:42<Rhamphoryncus>Explain how to avoid curves
06:43<@planetmaker>I said "build properly". Not "avoid curves"
06:44<@planetmaker>Not the difference. Read the wikis on building about it
06:44<Rhamphoryncus>You'll have to be more specific
06:45<@planetmaker>nope, I don't :-)
06:45<@planetmaker>allow yourself to take space
06:46<@planetmaker>if you want ueber-long trains, you got to build ueber-gigantic smooth curves then at 600 km/h
06:46<Rhamphoryncus>Station A is in one corner. Station B is in the opposite corner. How do I do it?
06:46<Rhamphoryncus>Bulldoze the land to have 64-tile curves?
06:46<@planetmaker>One straight track. Point to point. Done.
06:46<Rhamphoryncus>Bulldoze half the map.. I did say opposite corner
06:46<@planetmaker>I don't say bulldoze
06:46<@planetmaker>Slopes are no issue
06:47<@planetmaker>Or build tunnels
06:47<@planetmaker>or bridges
06:47<@planetmaker>you're actiong at least 10 levels more stupid than you are... C'mon!
06:48<Rhamphoryncus>One at game coordinates 0,0, the other at 2000,2000
06:48<Rhamphoryncus>Same to you
06:48<K0L3C>I sense that something bad will happen.
06:48<Rhamphoryncus>You cannot go up hills, build tunnels, or build bridges in a straight line
06:49<@planetmaker>Rhamphoryncus, you don't need to build diagonally the whole way...
06:49<Rhamphoryncus>No, you need to use curves
06:49<@planetmaker>and you may use s-bends. So what?!
06:54<K0L3C>What is this about exactly? :S
06:54<@planetmaker>it's about "it's too difficult to get a 64-tile train travel without slow-downs due to curves"
06:54<@planetmaker>My point is: yes, it's difficult but feasible
06:55<@planetmaker>And it's good that it's difficult
06:55<Rhamphoryncus>It's an inane penalty for using long fast trains
06:55<Rhamphoryncus>And a penalty you avoid 99% of the time by using tiny trains
06:55<Chris_Booth>Rhamphoryncus: its a penalty for using fast long trains
06:55<Chris_Booth>when do you need 1 64 tile trains?
06:56<Rhamphoryncus>Chris_Booth: it's a game. I'd like to play with the features it provides
06:56<@planetmaker>then please do. It provides the feature: long trains need great care and even more space when they shall travel fast
06:56<@planetmaker>small trains need smaller curves. Great. Sounds good. Sounds fun. sounds balanced. Sounds realistic
06:56<Chris_Booth>Rhamphoryncus: ^
06:56<@planetmaker>All at once
06:57<Rhamphoryncus>Why does speed even scale with curve length? Just drop a train to 75% max speed if it's ever on a curve
06:58<Chris_Booth>Rhamphoryncus: change the acceleration model
06:58<Chris_Booth>but if you look at REAL trains they don't have to slow on curves
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06:58<Chris_Booth>if the curve is long enough
06:59<Chris_Booth>you can use tilting trains that have a 20% curve speed advantage
07:00<Rhamphoryncus>Gentle curves help, so do higher quality tracks (which have advanced drastically over the decades). Curves have some limit, but mostly due to coupling, and that's fixed by using distributed power units
07:01<Chris_Booth>then what is the issue?
07:01<Rhamphoryncus>My comments apply to real life
07:01<Rhamphoryncus>In game there are no such things. More than 13 wagons and there's a hard speed limit
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07:05<Chris_Booth>no there is not
07:05<K0L3C>Rhamphoryncus, what trains are you using?
07:05<Rhamphoryncus>K0L3C: atm I'm playing with a bog standard lev4
07:06<Chris_Booth>It sounds like you need a) more power, b) longer curves, or c)both
07:06<K0L3C>Isn't that actually a suicide to use 62 wagons with the fastest train that ever existed?
07:06<K0L3C>In real life, of course.
07:07<Rhamphoryncus>Chris_Booth: Try again. the formula is 231−(13−X)⋅⋅2 where X is the number of wagons and capped at twelve.
07:08<Rhamphoryncus>K0L3C: it's not economical to run freight at high speeds so there's no motivation to build long trains for it
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07:10<Pikka>andy pandy puddin & pie!
07:10<Chris_Booth>lol hi Pikka
07:10<Pikka>I reverted your removing the first table from the cargotypes page on the wiki!
07:10<Pikka>hello Chris_Booth
07:10<Rhamphoryncus>Anyway, my sleeping pills have kicked in (as much as they ever do), so I shall leave you to it
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07:11<Chris_Booth>Pikka: if you highlight him why not type your message?
07:11<Chris_Booth>you will get an answer faster that way
07:11<Pikka>because I typed it already :D
07:12<Pikka>not a question so much as a statement
07:12<andythenorth>hello Pikka
07:13<@planetmaker>Pikka, for what purpose is it needed?
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07:13<@planetmaker>it usually only leads to bad CTTs and implicit assumptions of which cargo has which slot
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07:13<Pikka>hmm, perhaps
07:13<Pikka>actually now I've gone a bit further into it maybe it's not needed
07:14<Pikka>but perhaps if the table is removed the notes which refer to it should be removed also. ;)
07:14<andythenorth>sounds reasonable ;P
07:14<@planetmaker>that maybe yes
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07:14<andythenorth>was it this page?
07:14*andythenorth forgets
07:15<@planetmaker>is what pikka edited
07:15*planetmaker always visits "recent changes"
07:15<Pikka>hmm, okay, I will update my grf to version 8 and hope nothing breaks :D
07:15<Chris_Booth>just a quick Q, would making blank/non-detailed trains allow me to run more trains?
07:16<Pikka>more trains than what?
07:17<Chris_Booth>having the normal grf
07:18<Chris_Booth>I mean would it use less CPU power, allowing me to run more trains than opengfx/orginalgfx
07:18<K0L3C>I wonder when the stable release of 1.2.0 will happen.
07:18*andythenorth has no strong feelings on the table - except that the FIRS stuff should be removed
07:18<Pikka>you mean you're not hitting a hard limit, you're just experiencing slowdowns?
07:18<K0L3C>I keep waiting for it.
07:18<andythenorth>the FIRS stuff is almost certainly wrong
07:18<andythenorth>therefore...a source of unhelp
07:18<Pikka>K0L3C: april 1st if history is any guide
07:19<Pikka>Chris_Booth: I don't think the graphical appearance of the trains will give you any slowdowns, a pixel is a pixel. but any fancier code certainly will
07:19<Pikka>and the default graphics/opengfx have no fancy code
07:19<Pikka>so they're about as fast as you'll get
07:19<Chris_Booth>I just wanted to try and make the game run sommther
07:20<Pikka>turned off full animation?
07:20<Chris_Booth>and buildings
07:20<andythenorth>bought a bigger computer?
07:20<Chris_Booth>and trees
07:20<@planetmaker>it might... if you possibly actionA replace the base set graphics by invisible graphics
07:20<TWerkhoven[l]>overclocked your system?
07:20<@planetmaker>it would maybe need less repaints. But not sure
07:20<andythenorth>Chris_Booth: try buying a bigger computer, then report back ;)
07:20<Chris_Booth>andythenorth: I have one, but not very portable
07:20<andythenorth>that's the price of 'bigger'
07:20<Pikka>it'd also be quite difficult and uninteresting to play with invisible trains, planetmaker
07:21<andythenorth>make them visible if stuck?
07:21<andythenorth>run a counter for when the train last moved?
07:21<andythenorth>varaction 2
07:21<@planetmaker>absolutely, Pikka :-)
07:21<Pikka>I should think the code to check that would slow things down more than drawing the sprites, andy?
07:21<andythenorth>there is that
07:21<andythenorth>out of sight, out of mind though
07:21<@planetmaker>andythenorth, if you add that, then you again add NewGRF logic. Which might over-compensate that gain ;-)
07:22<andythenorth>logic is often faster than drawing, in my limited experience
07:22<Chris_Booth>ok well I guess the slowing down on my laptop ia something I can live with
07:22<andythenorth>depends what vars need to be checked :P
07:22<@planetmaker>but maybe. But then... invisible sprites are *also* drawn
07:22<@planetmaker>Thus it might be illusionary that it helps anything at all
07:22<Chris_Booth>or fix my routes so YAPF is less of a beast
07:23<@planetmaker>in any case, Pikka: would you be sad to NOT have the type A / type B table you re-added to the wiki?
07:23<@planetmaker>IMHO it exposes internal details which... should not be exposed :-)
07:24<andythenorth>just fail the graphics chain :P
07:25*andythenorth is sure that's ok :P
07:28<Pikka>yeah, I guess the table can go :D
07:28<Pikka>I guess anything v8 breaks in my old grfs I can fix. :P
07:29<@planetmaker>yeah, of course with old grfs... it may be helpful at times...
07:29<@planetmaker>but... having it there makes it like it should be used for new stuff :-)
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08:32<K0L3C>Why the world must be so cruel so I cannot tell a difference between cookies with raisins and cookies with chocolate bits.
08:34<@planetmaker>Pikka, so, will you undo your re-adding of the table? Would look better
08:34<Pikka>I will also remove the notes
08:35<@planetmaker>is that a new UKRS2 version?
08:35<K0L3C>planetmaker: When the final 1.2.0 will be released?
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08:35<andythenorth>pikka made a simpler UKRS
08:36<@planetmaker>lovely :-)
08:36<@planetmaker>K0L3C, who knows :-)
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08:36<K0L3C>planetmaker: I want to play OpenTTD badly but I want to start after 1.2.0 will be released.
08:37<@planetmaker>grab the RC1 and you have all features available in 1.2.0 as well
08:37<K0L3C>Because I am too lazy to uninstall and install the game again. :S
08:37<@planetmaker>bad luck
08:37<K0L3C>Also well, I'd like to play the stable version. The RC1 probably has some bugs.
08:37<K0L3C>And I am allergic to them. :P
08:37<@planetmaker>especially as OpenTTD does not need install
08:38<@planetmaker>K0L3C, and guess what: also 1.2.0 stable will have bugs
08:38<K0L3C>But... But less!
08:38<@planetmaker>and yes, the 1.2.0-RC1 *does* have bugs
08:39<@planetmaker>but then you can seamlessly update your openttd. The installer will just install over an older version
08:40<@planetmaker>K0L3C, the versions with the least bugs are the last release of a stable cycle.
08:40<K0L3C>What? I thought you need to uninstall and install. :O
08:40<@planetmaker>Thus you'd have to stick with 1.1.5 for another 13 months or so
08:40<@planetmaker>K0L3C, you don't even need to install
08:40<@planetmaker>The installer is there only for ... noobs :-P
08:41*K0L3C slaps planetmaker with a delicious pancake.
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08:41<@planetmaker>all it does is copy the files in a properly named directory. We use no registry and install no dlls
08:41<+glx>planetmaker: we use registry :)
08:41<+glx>only to store things for uninstaller ;)
08:41<@planetmaker>oh? :-) Ok
08:44<K0L3C>I wonder how people feel when they are permamently seated to a chair.
08:45<K0L3C>Honestly, I would survive that, I have a computer.
08:45<K0L3C>Worse when something very nasty happens.
08:47<@planetmaker>K0L3C, sorry, I didn't mean to be offence
08:47<K0L3C>planetmaker: You didn't offend me with "noob" in any way. :d
08:47<K0L3C>I'm used to this.
08:48<@planetmaker>we usually make fun of people who ask for release dates ;-)
08:48<K0L3C>Ah, honestly, I understand that. People should learn and remember that little sentence "When it's done".
08:48<@planetmaker>we might have an idea when we want to release something or get it done. But we won't blurt it out prior to a release
08:49<@planetmaker>it's bad practise. We do all this in our free time and things in RL might interfere
08:49<@planetmaker>and then people will start complaining "why isn't it here". Oh well
08:49<@planetmaker>thus indeed "when it's done"
08:49<+glx>and everybody should know our usual release date :)
08:49<K0L3C>When it's done?
08:49<@planetmaker>exactly :-)
08:51<Pikka> better?
08:51<Pikka>I put a link to the old version of the page for anyone who really wants to see that stuff ;)
08:53<@planetmaker>looks good, Pikka
08:54<@planetmaker>K0L3C, but one measure usually is, when predicting the future: have a look at the past :-)
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08:55<Pikka>ooh, tea :D
08:55<K0L3C>Want some tea?
08:55<@planetmaker>I just have freshly brewed one here
08:55<Pikka>I just finished one but I could make another....
08:55<@planetmaker>A nice Darjeeling
08:56<K0L3C>What if the life is Matrix and when you die you wake up in a capsule?
08:56<@planetmaker>it's inconsequential ;-) I can't quite transcendent myself to that level :-P
08:57<Pikka>hmm at the table... OpenTTD doesn't use TWOD? Who knew? :O
08:57<@planetmaker>it never did, I think?
08:57<Pikka>I see :)
08:57<K0L3C>planetmaker: Are you too pissed off at the goverment trying to censor out the internet?
08:57<@planetmaker>of course
08:58<K0L3C>I wonder why the hell they want to censor the internet. I think that's a part of evil goverment plan.
08:58<@planetmaker>15 minutes ago I signed a petition that our parliament should not sign ACTA
08:59<K0L3C>Well, my goverment is so stupid they accepted ACTA without looking at it.
08:59<__ln__>ours already did
08:59<@planetmaker>nah, not government. The copyright holders (not even the creative people)
08:59<K0L3C>Fortunately, half a week ago my goverment resigned.
08:59<K0L3C>And we're free from ACTA.
09:00<K0L3C>But it needs to go on.
09:01<K0L3C>Sometimes when I look at the world and see how retarded decisions some people make, I wish to go to a jungle and stay there for the rest of my life in isolation.
09:01<@planetmaker>doesn't help. The only solution is to participate in public discourse
09:02<K0L3C>Have you heard of an excuse of polish goverment against hackers attacking the goverment websites?
09:02<K0L3C>They said that the goverment websites are unable to work, because they suddenly turned to be the most popular websites ever.
09:05<K0L3C>And their passwords were "admin1"
09:05<@planetmaker>btw, non of the people talking here has yet voted in the titlegame competition as far as I know ;-)
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09:09<K0L3C>planetmaker, of what does that word remind you of: Shmetterling
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09:12<Pikka>planetmaker: I just had a good long look at all the entries in multiple resolutions and came to the conclusion that I ain't bovvered. sorry. :D
09:20<@planetmaker>K0L3C, that English "sh" is pronounced as German "Sch" ;-)
09:20<@planetmaker>K0L3C, but what shall it remind me of? It's the word for "butterfly"
09:22<K0L3C>I am pretty sure it would remind you of something else if you would hear it for the first time.
09:22<K0L3C>Because when I heard that, I thought it's a bomberplane.
09:22<Pikka>english, planetmaker?
09:23<Pikka>K0L3C: early SAM:
09:23<@planetmaker>K0L3C, why in all the world should I think of a bomber plane when I see the word "butterfly" (as written in my native tongue)?
09:24<@planetmaker>and not even now... I've never heart of such a name for a plane. Any plane
09:24<K0L3C>Well, there was a nazi plane called "Messerschwit"
09:25<K0L3C>And that kinda reminds me of them.
09:26<@planetmaker>The company was called "Messerschmitt". And how that relates to butterfly still eludes me.
09:27<@planetmaker>And honestly, I'm not that old that I saw them flying...
09:27<Pikka>because it has a similar assonance to a non-german speaker, I guess
09:28<@planetmaker>as similar to me as river and beaver ;-)
09:28<@planetmaker>though that's related actually
09:29<@planetmaker>and... Messerschmitt afaik was rather famous for having built the first jet plan ever.
09:29<Pikka>probably more famous for the bf109
09:29<K0L3C>Sounds pretty for Germans, but for foreigners it doesn't.
09:29<K0L3C>That's evil.
09:30<@planetmaker>I doubt than anyone not a WW2 plane fanatic knows the name Messerschmitt...
09:30<@planetmaker>but maybe I'm wrong
09:31<Pikka>I wouldn't say I'm a WW2 fanatic
09:31<@planetmaker>you're a plane fanatic :-P
09:31<Pikka>also, Heinkel He 178 was the first jet, apparently. :P
09:32<@planetmaker>see. ;-)
09:32<Pikka>the Messerschmitt Bf109 is up there with the spitfire though, you don't have to be mad about planes to have heard of it.
09:32<Pikka>yes but I only know that because I just looked it up :P
09:33<@planetmaker>hm, in "History Line" the ME were slightly superior to the Spitfire. But ever so slightly... oh those times when I played that. Must be 20 years ago ;-)
09:35<Pikka>must have been early war spitfires ;)
09:35<Pikka>don't mention the war
09:35<@planetmaker>what a typical British saying :-P
09:36<Pikka>it's from an episode of fawlty towers, so naturally :)
09:36<@planetmaker>in any case: trying to have me ring a bell with a particular vehicle type used in a war over 70 years ago is bound to not ring a bell with me
09:37<@planetmaker>As I'm simply not into recalling the names of them even when I might have read many names on day or another
09:38<hbccbh>any archer playing 1.20RC1?
09:39<@planetmaker>archers should go onto a shooting range...
09:39<hbccbh>the base graphics set doesn't work well :(
09:39<Ammler>which version?
09:39<@planetmaker>define "not work well"
09:40<Ammler>(of the base graphics set
09:40<hbccbh>Ammler: how can I check the base graphics set version?
09:40<@planetmaker>see "game options"
09:40<Ammler>yes, version?
09:40<@planetmaker>yes. Version. Not Name
09:41<@planetmaker>Update to OpenGFX 0.4.3
09:41<Ammler>you need 0.4.3
09:41<@planetmaker>content download -> select updates
09:42<Ammler>who is the packager of arch, is he around here?
09:42<hbccbh>the latest version in arch is 0.4.1 :(
09:43<Ammler>yes, use ingame content service
09:43<@planetmaker>hbccbh, you shall update via ingame content download
09:43<@planetmaker>arch certainly also hasn't OpenTTD 1.2.0-RC1, do they?
09:43<Ammler>and probably post a bug report there
09:43<@planetmaker>if they do, then indeed complain that they didn't ship OpenGFX 0.4.3 along with it
09:43<hbccbh>planetmaker: I am updating
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09:45<Ammler>planetmaker: arch is known to be more than bleeding edge, afaik
09:46<@planetmaker>still: they should ship matching OpenGFX for the OpenTTD they ship. Or not ship at all
09:46<@planetmaker>they were also released on the same date, so there's not much of a good excuse
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09:46<@planetmaker>wb pikka
09:47<hbccbh>ok, it works now, thanks dude :)
09:48<@planetmaker>it should simply have said you to update. Not much magic. And... it's always best to use the ingame content for updates
09:49<hbccbh>but I found ingame content updates is slow
09:50<Elukka><@planetmaker> I doubt than anyone not a WW2 plane fanatic knows the name Messerschmitt...
09:50<Elukka>i think it's famous enough most everyone would at least recognize the name and associate it with planes
09:51*andythenorth needs T
09:51<Elukka>though i guess it does depend on where you are
09:51<@planetmaker>Maybe. Yes, Messerschmitt is or has been a famous plane manufacturer. But... well :-)
09:52<+michi_cc>I wouldn't bet on people < ~20-25 years to have ever heard the name.
09:52<Ammler>planetmaker: where do you find the info, that openttd rc1 needs opengfx 0.4.3?
09:52<@planetmaker>ingame. That OpenTTD tells you that you need a newer base set, if you got an older one
09:53<Ammler>yes, how should a package maintainer get that info?
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09:53<@planetmaker>A package maintainer imho should always ship the newest OpenGFX
09:53<@planetmaker>And know that its releases can be triggered by exactly these kind of requirements
09:56<Ammler>well, I just meant, that is a good reason to mention dependency changes in the changelog
09:57<Ammler>at least as long as opengfx is the only baseset :-)
09:58<@planetmaker>Yes, also agreed
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10:01<Ammler>he, if there is another baseset sometime, you can introduce yet anther version :-P nfo, grf, container & baseset
10:02<@planetmaker>basesets do have a version.
10:04<Ammler>you don't get it? Well, it's not really important, just think about how you would handle multiple graphics basesets
10:05<Ammler>the version number could be the number of action5 sprites :-P
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10:11<hbccbh>umm, when I play in the multiplayer, most server is version mismatch, how can I solve it?
10:11<Ammler>downgrade to stable
10:11<Pikka>play the same version as the server
10:11<Ammler>you can run multiple clients
10:12<hbccbh>ok, I will wait :)
10:12<hbccbh>arch is toooo fast
10:12<Ammler>the generic linux binary from should work
10:13<hbccbh>I will have a try, thx
10:13<Ammler>just use the right arch :-P
10:14<@Belugas>salut man
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10:30<Pikka>I have located something grf v8 broke in my grf :D
10:30<Pikka>callback 1D
10:32<@planetmaker>changing the grf to v8?
10:33<Pikka>not to mention callbacks 11 and 12.. D:
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10:34<Pikka>callback 1D now has a completely different return format, 11 and 12 apparently just straight-up don't work. :D
10:41<Pikka>silly question: why wasn't cb10 rolled into cb36 at the same time as 11 and 12? :P
10:42<Rubidium>silly answer: ask frosch
10:44<Rubidium>Pikka: has the answer ;)
10:45<Rubidium>it describes all changes in that grf version in one page (not sure whether that's in the specs though)
10:45<Hirundo>Ask andy, it's one of his ponies ;-)
10:46<Pikka>anyway I will now stop what I was doing and go back and fix the length callback twice for every single tender locomotive in the grf. yay.
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11:26<Pikka>so my caboose check subroutine that used to work no longer works, and it no longer works in interesting ways which I think may not be entirely my fault
11:26<Pikka>to the forum!
11:34<Pikka>I'm stupid
11:34<Pikka>carry on :D
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11:37<Pikka>there's nothing quite like working out the answer after banging your head on the desk for an hour :)
11:38<Pikka>the answer was, if you were wondering, that if you now need to get a >8bit callback result from a procedure call, you need to be calling the procedure with type 85 instead of 81. :}
11:39<Pikka>so now I've fixed that, I can go back to fixing the other thing I was fixing instead of doing the thing I was halfway through doing before I started fixing things.
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11:48<andythenorth>Pikka: you know how I mentioned I'm an nml convert....
11:49<andythenorth>....I'm an nml convert :P
11:49<Pikka>I'm not :D
11:49<andythenorth>it was fun, for a while, dealing with bitmasks and things
11:49<andythenorth>I think I'll keep a set in nfo for exercise purposes
11:49<Pikka>but can you even do procedures shared across multiple vehicles in nml?
11:50<andythenorth>I don't bother :)
11:51<andythenorth>so not sure ;)
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12:02<Pikka>andy: well, for complex things like variable running costs they're very useful. only one place to change things when you decide it should work differently.
12:04<andythenorth>I solved that a little differently
12:04<andythenorth>I'm building nml with python :D
12:04<andythenorth>so I change the python
12:05<andythenorth>compile time versus run time I guess
12:05<andythenorth>it's not in any way better, but suits me fine
12:05<andythenorth>I only have one template for all the trucks in BANDIT so far
12:05<@Alberth>andythenorth: of course you build nml with python, it's written in python, so you need a Python interpreter to compile it :p
12:05<andythenorth>cookie for alberth for being smart :P
12:06*andythenorth will now go back to pulling trac tickets for the next product release :P
12:06*Alberth takes cookie, and eats it
12:06<@Alberth>bye :)
12:08<@Alberth>it does make you wonder whether some generator code should be moved to nml itself
12:10<Rubidium>oh... baking cookies sounds like a good idea ;)
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12:26<andythenorth>Alberth: generator code in nml - seems like a step too far...
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12:33<@Alberth>well, you need a higher abstraction level than nml provides, eddi does too, so why wouldn't others ?
12:34<+michi_cc>In an ideal world NML syntax would be closer to C syntax with proper variables, functions etc, instead of the current syntax that very much smells like NFO Actions :)
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12:51<Rubidium>michi_cc: we just need nmml ;)
12:54<Yexo>good evening
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12:57<Hirundo>there are higher level things planned for nml, once you stop adding new newgrf features to ottd I may have time to actually work on them ;-)
12:58<@Alberth>stop implementing all the new features :p
13:02<@planetmaker>michi_cc: yes-ish. But before it's more abstracted we need to implement all the missing features basically
13:02<Yexo>one of the problems there will be that a grf is processed in two stages. When loading you can have variables (stored in the grf parameters) and use them in action6 (=anywhere). After loading you can still implement variables (but only local ones) and functions, those can be expressed as advanced varaction2 expressions (with variables in temporary storage)
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13:03<Yexo>the fact that the global variables cannot be changed during runtime is very non-obvious
13:03<Yexo>there are also problems with using such a variable, changing it and using it in another place
13:03<Yexo>since the value is subsituted at load-time, it can have two different values depending on which codepath is taken
13:05<Yexo>one way to make that more obvious is to force all parameter assignment inside some header
13:05<Yexo>that code is executed once (at load time), the rest is executed at runtime but you can't assign global variables there
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13:11<Hirundo>grf-local storage (at runtime) would be nice, but getting that to work properly w/o desyncs would be a major PITA
13:12<Yexo>shouldn't be too hard, just implement permanent storage (like already done for industries/airports) globally
13:12<Yexo>a more important question: is there really any need for that?
13:14<@Alberth>depends on the goal of newgrf
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13:15<@Alberth>in my view, newgrf should do local stuff only, and let the more global stuff to scripts and/or the program
13:15<Hirundo>Yexo: Would grf autors realize, how may CBs are called non-synchronously between server and client?
13:16<Yexo>Hirundo: doesn't matter
13:16<Hirundo>why not?
13:16<Yexo>openttd already has code in place, changes to permanent storage done in non-synchronous calls is not committed
13:18<Hirundo>that would also include e.g. cb 36, all visual stuff
13:19<Yexo>the only result will be questions from those newgrf developers that don't understand why there changes are gone
13:19<Hirundo>Alberth's argument about grf stuff being local makes sense to me, though
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13:20<Yexo>as argument against grf-local permanent storage? yes
13:20<Yexo>but I wasn't in favor of that anyway
13:21<Yexo>some other permanent storage is really needed (like for industries, or airports statemachines)
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13:25<frosch123>we already have kind of global storage for grfs
13:25<frosch123>it's the persistent storage of towns
13:26<frosch123>storage per map is imo a bad idea
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13:26<frosch123>newgrfs should not bother about the big picture, gs should do that
13:26<frosch123>if newgrfs would start to care about global stuff we get even worse scaling issues than we already have
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13:51<Pikka>ukrs2 is at 11101 sprites :}
13:51<Pikka>and I think I'm finished fixing all the problems caused by moving to grf v8
13:51<Pikka>oh, wait
13:51<Pikka>did I check all the...
13:52<Pikka>looks like I did. :)
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13:53<Rubidium>next step... nfo32? ;)
13:55<Pikka>next step: add stuff to the grf :}
13:55<Pikka>or possibly next step, finish what I'm doing and get some sleep.
14:00<supermop>why do people make bros so difficult?
14:01<Yexo>because nobody takes responsibility to lead it
14:01<supermop>seems like that set should have been done several times over by now with all the fits and start
14:03<supermop>but now someone is trying to take responsibility, and its made everyone else all defensive
14:06<+michi_cc><mode="evil">Maybe "everyone else" should have done work instead of discussion. NewGRF coding is not rocket science, but I guess BR(OS) is/was just a nice pretext for a lot of discussion.</mode>
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14:14<andythenorth>michi_cc: In an ideal world NML syntax would be closer to C syntax with proper variables, functions etc <- would you like to subscribe to my newsletter?
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14:38<andythenorth>frosch123: newgrfs should not bother about the big picture, gs should do that <- +1, newgrfs should (mostly) be quite dumb things displaying graphics
14:41*andythenorth sent his favourite grace hopper quote to leanden wrt BROS
14:48<@Alberth>nice :)
14:49<andythenorth>forgiveness > permission
14:49<andythenorth>specifically my favourite
14:49<@Alberth>indeed :)
14:49*andythenorth made 'lol' at pikka's comment on BROS
14:49*Alberth saw it :)
14:50<andythenorth>Alberth: you saw the steel truck I posted this morning?
14:50<andythenorth> 4 pass render, compositing
14:50<andythenorth>made it at 3am
14:50<andythenorth>the baby woke up :P
14:52<@Alberth>I don't really see a truck in it :(
14:52<andythenorth>truck / trailer /s
14:52<@Alberth>but nice that multiple renders are working :)
14:53<andythenorth>I still have some headaches
14:53<andythenorth>that one was easy
14:53<andythenorth>not sure how I can use the same floorplan to draw loads like logs
14:53<andythenorth>but I'll figure it out :P
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14:55<@Terkhen>hello :)
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15:00<K0L3C>How do people make new sprites for new vehicles?
15:00<K0L3C>Do they use basic programs or they need to use a strict palette?
15:02<@Alberth>there is a fixed palette
15:02<@Alberth>but otherwise, they use every pixel editor that exists :)
15:03<K0L3C>Is this possible to make new sprites with Gimp or something like that?
15:03<@planetmaker>it's the only programme I used to make all the river sprites. Or draw those trees I did.
15:03<@planetmaker>or... whatever. Every sprite work I do ;-)
15:04<K0L3C>You mean Gimp?
15:04<@planetmaker>Heck, gimp even is a build requirement for OpenGFX
15:04<@planetmaker>it uses gimp scripts :-)
15:04<K0L3C>Gimp is a superior.
15:04<K0L3C>Almost same like photoshop.
15:04<andythenorth>K0L3C: common choices: gimp, photostrop, paint,
15:04<K0L3C>But there are two differences.
15:04<andythenorth>ymmv ;)
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15:04<K0L3C>Photoshop = Easy in start, hard later/Gimp = Hard in start, easy later.
15:05<@Alberth>K0L3C: they all work, so just use one you like :)
15:06<andythenorth>the important thing is to get hold of a palette
15:06<@planetmaker>making sprites requires no big in-depth knowledge of the programme usually
15:06<@planetmaker>and for the 8bpp sprites you need to make use of the palette. Every (New)GRF needs 8bpp paletted sprites
15:07<K0L3C>I find making sprites difficult as hell.
15:07<K0L3C>The worst part is in detailing.
15:07<andythenorth>K0L3C: it actually helps to have less detail in TTD sprites
15:07<andythenorth>(discounting extra zoom levels) :P
15:10<Pikka>I dunno about that, andy :P
15:10<Pikka>I quite like my details
15:10*Pikka got sidetracked again and is currently completely recoding the metcam DMUs
15:11<andythenorth>there's detail and there's detail :P
15:11<andythenorth>stuff like trying to draw in window frames, doors, greebles accurately....mostly doesn't work
15:12<andythenorth>stuff that says 'there is a door here' is ok
15:13*andythenorth should perhaps distribute opinions less :P
15:13<andythenorth>it may be a bad habit
15:14<Pikka>particularly with the extra zoom levels now
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15:14<Pikka>it's back to the good old days of ttd instead of having sprites so tiny you can barely see them on a modern screen :)
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15:14<Eddi|zuHause>[24.02.2012 00:51] <glx> and it's not black, it's just a darker palette :) <-- no, i mean the screen turns black for a split second, and reappears with the question window afterwards
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15:14<Pikka>so the extra detail does help
15:15<andythenorth>Pikka: you're doing EZ?
15:15<Pikka>I'm not doing ez sprites
15:15<Pikka>but you can still zoom in more in OTTD now :P
15:16<Pikka>and actually see what detail is possible with the current sprites.
15:16<Pikka>like you used to be able to back in the days of SVGA :}
15:17<andythenorth>this baby is cross
15:17<andythenorth>and he's attached to me
15:18<Pikka>we all have our cross to bear :}
15:18<K0L3C>Have you heard of a woman in Finland that killed her husband and two children and freezed their guts in the fridge, to then serve them to people visiting him.
15:18<andythenorth>oh how cheerful
15:18*andythenorth will keep his wife away from the knoves
15:18-!-roboboy [] has joined #openttd
15:19<andythenorth>procedural details!
15:19<andythenorth>greeble shader!
15:19<andythenorth>nurney render!
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15:24<K0L3C>The worst of all, andy, is that.
15:25<K0L3C>The visitors LIKED the meat.
15:28<@Alberth>You won't recognize it either when you get it cooked at a dish
15:28<K0L3C>And that's what's scary.
15:28<K0L3C>They were cannibals without knowing it.
15:29<K0L3C>Unfortunately that's a fucked up world.
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15:30<@Alberth>no, it's normal human nature
15:31<K0L3C>Only strongest people will survive.
15:31<@Alberth>we are not a very nicely behaving sort of animal
15:31<K0L3C>Alberth: What do you think? In what year WWIII will start?
15:33<K0L3C>Rubidium, I kinda agree with you.
15:34<K0L3C>This day, you will witness how many retards exist on the planet called Earth.
15:34<@Alberth>21-12-2112 is a much nicer number :)
15:34<K0L3C>Like 11-11-2011
15:34<K0L3C>"Omg it's so weird it must be da end of teh wurld"
15:35*andythenorth procedurally generates significant dates
15:35*andythenorth ponders writing more python->nml tutorial
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15:39<K0L3C>Alberth: Every year, humans are getting more stuppid
15:39<Pikka>I think it's just you, K0L3C
15:41*andythenorth ponders the evidence
15:41<andythenorth>there are *more* humans
15:41<andythenorth>and some are stupid
15:41<andythenorth>but in aggregate?
15:43<andythenorth>are there currently more or fewer burnings of witches than in previous history?
15:43<K0L3C>Why are you so mean for me for no reason?
15:43<Pikka>I'm not
15:44<andythenorth>Pikka: it's not just him
15:44<Pikka>I meant it's probably just your perception, not that it's probably just you getting more stupid :]
15:44<andythenorth>other people have that perception too
15:44<Pikka>but people have always had that perception
15:44<K0L3C>Lets take for example girls today.
15:45<K0L3C>They go to party, dressed like sluts, and then they cry why someone raped her.
15:46<Pikka>and your evidence for this, or at least for this being more prevalent than it has been in the past, is...?
15:46-!-frosch123 [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:46<K0L3C>You don't need evidence, you can see that everywhere.
15:47*andythenorth will perhaps toddle off now and find other things to do
15:47*andythenorth suspects godwin event soon
15:47<Pikka>psh andy
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15:48<andythenorth>Pikka: "real men argue on the interwebs" ? :)
15:49<Pikka>no, but we all enjoy a good trolling now and then :)
15:49<andythenorth>true, but there's such fun to be had in the BROS thread :P
15:49<Pikka>but yes, other stuff is more productive :)
15:49*andythenorth procedurally generates trolls
15:49*Pikka goes back to massacring NFO
15:50*K0L3C is horrified by andy.
15:50*K0L3C grabs a rocket launcher and destroys andy.
15:50<+michi_cc>K0L3C: "What is happening to our young
15:50<+michi_cc>people? They disrespect their elders, they disobey their parents. They
15:50<+michi_cc>ignore the law. They riot in the streets inflamed with wild notions. Their morals are decaying. What is to become of them?"
15:51<+michi_cc>Most likely Plato, around 400 BC. Seems to suggest to me it is only perception.
15:51<andythenorth>in two recent BBC news stories, it turns out that internet trolls actually look like trolls
15:51<andythenorth>which surprised me
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15:56<K0L3C>"Woman thinks the Eye of Sauron has raped her" from the Slovakian newspaper.
15:56<K0L3C>Lol wut.
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16:04*andythenorth wtfs at how to generate logs for loads
16:07-!-roboboy [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:07*andythenorth has idea :o
16:21<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> this baby is cross <-- may be time to take it out of the oven then :p
16:23<andythenorth>if only that were always the solution :P
16:23*andythenorth hmms
16:23<andythenorth>generating cargo sprites for flatbed trailers
16:23<andythenorth>not the easy win I thought it would be :(
16:24<Pikka>oh, right
16:24<Pikka>the mail sprites... knew I forgot something :D
16:25<Rubidium>good morning? Pikka
16:25<Pikka>good morning Rubidium
16:25<Pikka>7:24am :)
16:25*andythenorth has been skyping au recently
16:25<andythenorth>requires someone to get up early, or stay up late...
16:25<Pikka>you filthy swine you
16:26*andythenorth has been procuring australian flags for websites too
16:26<andythenorth>so placing stuff like '2 steel coils' on a trailer is easy
16:26<andythenorth>but placing 'one load of logs, correct length' is not
16:27<andythenorth>and '2 containers' can't be placed in the same place as '2 steel coils'
16:27<andythenorth>so that's a bit confusing
16:28<Eddi|zuHause>just nest the decisions: switch(cargo type) { switch (cargo items) }
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16:29<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: just nest the decisions: switch(cargo type) { switch (cargo items) }
16:30<andythenorth>something like that
16:31<andythenorth>the steel coils are place at the locations of the 2 yellow pixels on the flatbed
16:32<andythenorth>but that fails for larger cargo
16:32<andythenorth>also I need to deal with angles
16:33<andythenorth>I can just add more pixels, in more colours, at more locations
16:33<K0L3C>I heard version 1.2.0 has additional 2 zooms.
16:33<K0L3C>Is that true?
16:33<andythenorth>but at some point, this generator stops saving work
16:33-!-supermop [] has joined #openttd
16:33<andythenorth>hi supermop
16:33<supermop>just got back from a late lunch
16:34<andythenorth>maybe I just draw an additional central dot (using a different colour for each angle)
16:34<andythenorth>then I place larger loads on the central dot
16:34<supermop>what strange things are you doing now?
16:34<andythenorth>drawing loads on trailers:
16:35<andythenorth>also the generator will know the intended length of the trailer, so I could choose the right length load
16:35<andythenorth>this is easier than I thought
16:35<supermop>a capsule should be a flatbed load for building supplies in the 70s
16:35<andythenorth>a space capsule? :P
16:35<supermop>does firs still have those?
16:35<supermop>a nakagin capsule
16:36<andythenorth>FIRS still has them
16:36<andythenorth>FIRS cargos are officially, really, officially, nearly done
16:36<andythenorth>Pikka: regearing - dead or alive? :o
16:37<andythenorth>I save a slot for it currently
16:37<Pikka>andy: dead, but I'm not going to update NARS any time soon
16:37<Rhamphoryncus>K0L3C: normal plus 3 out and 2 in
16:37<andythenorth>I kind of like regearing
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16:38<Pikka>it was a bad solution to an interesting problem :}
16:38-!-mode/#openttd [+o orudge`] by ChanServ
16:38<andythenorth>we miss some extra props on vehicles :(
16:38<andythenorth>with ability to expose them to gui
16:38-!-orudge` is now known as orudge
16:40<andythenorth>make a 'loads' folder
16:40<andythenorth>generate the loads for each required length
16:40<andythenorth>comp them onto the trucks / trailers
16:40<andythenorth>might work
16:41<andythenorth>and for tricky loads, just draw them :P then comp them on
16:50<K0L3C>Argh, screw this, I'm DLing 1.1.5
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16:54*andythenorth wonders how many load graphics there are
16:55*K0L3C doesn't understand.
16:55<andythenorth>Pikka: how many different flatbed load graphics do you have in UKRS 2 ?
16:56<Pikka>not many
16:56*andythenorth likes this answer
16:56<andythenorth>is it < 3 or > 3?
16:56<Pikka>a couple of steel loads, logs, cars, everything else is just tarp loads :}
16:57<Pikka>my dmu is now working fine except the predicted capacity in the vehicle refit window is sometimes wrong :D I wonder how I managed that.
16:59*Pikka blames openttd and moves on :D
17:00<andythenorth>the purchase menu is such fun :)
17:00<andythenorth>steel / copper / paper coils are just recolourings
17:00<andythenorth>logs, lumber, tarps
17:00<andythenorth>that will do me
17:00<andythenorth>containers can get a container trailer of their own
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17:04<Pikka>callback 12 :[
17:04<Pikka>another one to replace all through the grf D:
17:04<andythenorth>always such a laugh
17:05<Pikka>shouldn't be as much of a pain/used as widely as 11, but still...
17:05<andythenorth>that's going to screw me for HEQS 2 as well
17:05<andythenorth>when I move to grf v8
17:07<andythenorth>tarps in various colours
17:08<K0L3C>DLed it.
17:08<andythenorth>containers in various colours too
17:08<K0L3C>Now lets figure out how to play.
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17:19<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23981 /trunk/ (6 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: reduce GRF size by a few percent by letting GRFCodec determine the best compression
17:21<K0L3C>Why semaphors are different looking now?
17:21<Rhamphoryncus>K0L3C: hmm?
17:23<K0L3C>Rhamphoryncus: Back then they were looking way different.
17:23<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> that's going to screw me for HEQS 2 as well <- just port it to nml :p
17:23<andythenorth>but if I don't do nfo, how do I improve my brain? :o
17:24<Eddi|zuHause>at some point, the same language over and over again won't improve your skills significantly anmymore
17:24<Eddi|zuHause>that's why no production systems use haskell :p
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17:25<andythenorth>this is true
17:26*andythenorth wonders how to procedurally generate this:
17:29<Rhamphoryncus>K0L3C: there's two different kinds (old mechanical and modern lights)
17:29<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23982 /trunk/ (29 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: use NFO v32 for the extra graphics
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17:31<K0L3C>No Rham.
17:31<K0L3C>The semaphores have a different look right now.
17:31<Eddi|zuHause>there's "german" style semaphores and "british" style semaphores, depending on signal side setting
17:31<K0L3C>Okay then, I thought that was updated.
17:32<Chris_Booth>Eddi|zuHause: is that only in opengfx?
17:32<Eddi|zuHause>Chris_Booth: that has been like this since forever
17:32<K0L3C>In what country does planetmaker live?
17:32<Eddi|zuHause>Chris_Booth: even in TTDPatch
17:32<Chris_Booth>oh wow shows how much attention I pay XD
17:33<Chris_Booth>so you get different ones on left/right drive
17:33<Eddi|zuHause>actually, i think OpenGFX handles this the wrong way
17:33*andythenorth -> bed
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17:33<Eddi|zuHause>at least i have recently seen several screenshots where it's wrong
17:34<@planetmaker>I destroyed that in current OpenGFX accidentially. There's currently only British ones. Except in nightly OpenGFX
17:34<K0L3C>Oh, that explains everything then. :)
17:34<K0L3C>Because the first thing I noticed was different-looking semaphors.
17:34<K0L3C>They don't look as old as the German ones do.
17:35<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: the pictures i saw were the other way around. german style semaphores on the left side
17:35<@planetmaker>oh, really?
17:35<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i don't really know if it's opengfx's fault
17:36<@Terkhen>good night
17:36<@planetmaker>oh, well may be...
17:36<@planetmaker>g'night Terkhen
17:36<K0L3C>planetmaker, in what country do you live? Also G'Night Terkhen.
17:36<Eddi|zuHause>could really be any signal newgrf
17:36<Eddi|zuHause>K0L3C: someone who makes planets cannot live on a planet himself
17:37<K0L3C>Oh, so he's in space or he's a God?
17:37<Eddi|zuHause>it's like the barber can't be a villager
17:37<K0L3C>No but really, where?
17:37<K0L3C>Finland? Netherlands? England?
17:37<Chris_Booth>Eddi|zuHause: you can do that by changing drive direction in game
17:37<@planetmaker>on Earth
17:38<K0L3C>Okay, that tells everything.
17:38<@planetmaker>exactly. It tells you all you need to know about me
17:39<K0L3C>The only thing I know about you is that you are a weird human being. :d
17:39<Eddi|zuHause>then there's at least a dozen people here that know more than they should :p
17:39<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: need != should != may :-)
17:40<Chris_Booth>some people know where the great planetmaker comes from
17:40<Chris_Booth>and some people Know
17:41<@planetmaker>usually these questions like "where is XYZ from" etc just are used to put people into small little boxes, are not helpful anywhere etc
17:42<@planetmaker>thus I care little about this...
17:42<Rubidium>planetmaker: what if you answer sol d?
17:43<@planetmaker>:-) I do that already, don't I?
17:43<Chris_Booth>I always tell people I am from france
17:43<Pikka>ukrs2, now with less!
17:44<K0L3C>planetmaker: Well, I'm just curious. It's not like telling somebody in what country they live will break your life apart already. :P
17:44<@planetmaker>pikka, you should really assume engine pool switched on by default. It's the default setting after all
17:44<Chris_Booth>K0L3C: you can always find out
17:44<Chris_Booth>its not a scret, he has an IP address
17:44<Rubidium>planetmaker: it's just to make the box a bit bigger, though still pretty small
17:44<Pikka>? planetmaker
17:44<K0L3C>Which is covered.
17:45<K0L3C>So I am unable to see from what country he is.
17:45<Pikka>I do, that parameter just overrides the grf turning itself off when it detects another trainset it knows about. :)
17:45<@planetmaker>Pikka: the boolean setting in the image you posted ;-)
17:45<@planetmaker>Pikka: yes... and imho that's... bad behaviour :-(
17:45<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: it's kind of a misnomer then
17:45<Pikka>I know, I should probably change the name of it
17:45<Chris_Booth>K0L3C: then I guess you will have to just imagine the ghost that is planetmaker
17:45<@planetmaker>indeed. Name it appropriately then.
17:46<Pikka>I will.:)
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17:46<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: more like "disable compatibility checks with other vehicle sets"
17:46<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: "compatibility check"?
17:46<@planetmaker>when it's simply a "disable, if others present"?
17:46<@planetmaker>or did that change?
17:47<Pikka>planetmaker: only if it knows it's incompatible
17:47<@planetmaker>define "incompatible", please
17:47<Pikka>it just happens that it's incompatible with every set released to date :P
17:47<@planetmaker>I'm really curious :-)
17:47<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: there's not much variation you can do
17:47<Pikka>any and every train grf I know about
17:47<@planetmaker>lol. Kinda stupid to call it compatibility setting then
17:47<Chris_Booth>what happened to all the trains Pikka?
17:48<Pikka>chris: this is the simple TTD mode
17:48<Chris_Booth>ah ok
17:49<Pikka>planetmaker: is it really so bad to ask someone to rtfm and click a button before throwing my grf in with their hodgepodge of every random grf they could get hold of? :P
17:49<@planetmaker>yes, it's bully behaviour really
17:49<Chris_Booth>I say no Pikka
17:50<@planetmaker>Or do you not check for the engine pool setting?
17:50<@planetmaker>I'll also need to check that box when I add egrvts + heqs
17:50<@planetmaker>unless that setting changed from your other grfs
17:50<Chris_Booth>I also don't think I have ever thanked you Pikka for all the fun I have had playing with your GRFs epecialy UKRS 3.04
17:50<Eddi|zuHause>i kinda side with pikka here, but only since there's a sane menu for the parameters. "hiding" them in some "manual" is not the way to go
17:50<@planetmaker>which then really is... off the point
17:50<Rubidium>Pikka: are you sure you got every set?
17:50<Pikka>nope rubidium, just all the ones I know about at the moment :)
17:51<Rubidium>*good* luck ;)
17:51<Pikka>well, perhaps I should just let people do what they want. :)
17:51<Rubidium>and that's not complete as it contains only those that have been used in MP
17:52<Rubidium>Pikka: maybe add a parameter "I have read the readme" ;)
17:52<Rubidium>if that's not set, crash and burn
17:52<Pikka>I did consider that.. a parameter that must be set before the set worked at all. ;)
17:52<Rubidium>but don't forget to attach a readme.txt when uploading it to bananas
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17:52<@planetmaker>nah, I always find it annoying when configuring a game, I must say. As a default config simply won't work
17:52<Pikka>eh, I'll probably take the grf check out
17:53<@planetmaker>thus I'll have to generate every map with one of those vehicle grfs of yours twice
17:53<Pikka>that said, planetmaker, everyone who's been using the alphas of ukrs2, when they update to this one, will suddenly have the parameters for vehicle availability turned to none. :)
17:54<@planetmaker>Pikka: then change the min_compatible_version to not compatible with alphas
17:54<@planetmaker>thus that people don't update an existing game
17:54<Pikka>hmm, perhaps!
17:55<@planetmaker>which - depending on your implementation of 'not available' - is needed or at least nice
17:55<Eddi|zuHause>min_compatible_version is currently not checked when manually updating grfs
17:55<Rhamphoryncus>speaking of readme, I have 4 newgrf's with ukrs in them, all have the readme button disabled
17:55<Pikka>it's on banananas eddi
17:55<Eddi|zuHause>only when loading old savegames with the right grf not present anymore
17:55<@planetmaker>it's needed when you make don't define the vehicle, it's nice when you set climate availability to 'none'
17:56<Pikka>yep planetmaker
17:56<Pikka>it's all strictly done nicely by setting climate to none, I don't just dump vehicles out altogether
17:56<Pikka>that would be quite bad :]
17:57<Eddi|zuHause>that remeinds me i have not tested yet the code to "gracefully" remove a vehicle from the set
17:58<Pikka>actually that parameter does serve an additional purpose, I guess I'll change it to just do that. :)
18:00<Pikka>it puts UK flags behind the vehicles in the buy menu so you can tell what comes from this grf...
18:01<@planetmaker>*that* is a very good idea though, to indicate set affiliation i a manner like this
18:02<@planetmaker>it allows nicely to choose fitting vehicles for different regions :-)
18:02<@planetmaker>without guess-work or in-depth knowledge
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18:03<Eddi|zuHause>i was thinking company logos for CETS, but that doesn't really fit into the scale for some of the earlier railway companies
18:03<@planetmaker>how not "fit into scale"?
18:03<K0L3C>Too big.
18:04<Eddi|zuHause>too many details
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18:04<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: wouldn't the logos cover a constant pixel amount left of the vehicles and fine is?
18:04<@planetmaker>or too little space left for vehicles? But then I'd assume rather for the late steam engines?
18:05<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i mean the number of pixels won't suffice to represent the logo in a distinguishable manner
18:05<Eddi|zuHause>it'd be fine for a DB logo, but not for e.g. prussian or bavarian state railway
18:06<@planetmaker>I've no idea about those logos, tbh
18:07<@planetmaker>logos back then were more intricate, I guess
18:08<Eddi|zuHause>in the "easiest" case they'll have an eagle and the country's colours :p
18:09<K0L3C>Hmm, I think server list in OpenTTD should have a filter.
18:10<Eddi|zuHause>i think you're not alone with that thought :p
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18:16<Rhamphoryncus>Why would a widget not draw a background? In this case a WWT_LABEL I'm adding as a column header
18:16-!-Pikka [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
18:17<Eddi|zuHause>when you didn't resize the underlying WWT_PANEL?
18:17<Rhamphoryncus>.. there isn't one?
18:17<Eddi|zuHause>then that's your reason :)
18:17<Rhamphoryncus>horizontal, vertical, label
18:18<+glx>label is just a text
18:18<Yexo>was about to say that, a label never draws a background
18:20<Rhamphoryncus>alright, thanks.
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19:18<Wolf01>'night all
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20:31<xiong>Any progress toward a setting to disable the prototype vehicle offers?
20:31<Rhamphoryncus>You're aware of the workaround of accepting one, then ignoring it for a year? They'll blacklist you for a few years after that
20:33<xiong>Rhamphoryncus, I heard that years ago and tested it out. I never was blacklisted; continued to be offered all prototypes. Perhaps that's been fixed. Still, I want no such offers at all. I never want them and they always seem to come at the worst time. I might be timetabling or otherwise managing a tricky thing... when up pops the huge box. Can't even dismiss it with spacebar; must mouse or wait.
20:33*Rhamphoryncus nods
20:33<Rhamphoryncus>I've never tested it either
20:34<xiong>I set up quite a few tests on various prototype propositions: that accepting and not employing would blacklist; that accepting and using would confer some advantage. All failed.
20:35<xiong>In any case, I just don't see the point. I play with breakdowns; reliability is my top concern, not top power or speed.
20:35<Rhamphoryncus>I remember that using a prototype would boost the reliability later on, but that may have been an earlier version or simply a myth
20:36<xiong>Earlier version, myth, bug, vapor feature, I dunno. Might even be true now.
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20:36<xiong>It's a fact that many vehicles improve in reliability the longer they've been available.
20:37<xiong>So from my viewpoint, I'm not only not interested in prototypes; I don't usually want new vehicles until years after introduction.
20:37<xiong>You can imagine the kind of hardware and software I use on my desktop.
20:38<xiong>Rhamphoryncus, you'll excuse me if I don't know you well... how are you with writing NewGRFs?
20:39<Rhamphoryncus>There is code to blacklist you for not building a prototype. Dunno if it works though.
20:39<Rhamphoryncus>I've never touched newgrfs
20:46<Rhamphoryncus>Hrm. Looks like reliability is randomly picked each game but not affected by accepting a prototype
20:53<xiong>... in defiance of propaganda.
20:54<xiong>For me, the prototype offers are worse than useless; they're a distraction.
21:10<Rhamphoryncus>Hah. If the text for your order destination changes to "1 fizzy drink" you're doing something wrong. ;)
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22:26<supermop>quite rare
22:28<supermop>why are you up so late/early?
22:33<supermop>i am waiting on pizza, in case you are wondering
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---Logclosed Sat Feb 25 00:00:16 2012