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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-02-25

---Logopened Sat Feb 25 00:00:16 2012
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01:36<xiong>I'm doing some junction testing and came on an unexpected result by mistake.
01:37<xiong>I inadvertently included an unreachable station in the order list, which (I suppose) meant that trains waiting to enter the junction were willing to take any route out of it, rather than the "next" ordered.
01:39<xiong>So, it seems, the junction was able to carry a higher volume of traffic. The implication this suggests to me is that you can extract a little more volume from your network, presuming pax and mail, if you give your trains no orders at all and allow them to visit stations randomly.
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03:04<Rubidium>morning andy
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03:12<Rhamphoryncus>heya andy
03:13*andythenorth wonders
03:14<andythenorth>in python, can an arbitrary function be passed to a method as an arg, then used by the method?
03:16<Rhamphoryncus>functions are ordinary objects
03:19<Rhamphoryncus>bound methods can be passed around too. is merely (
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03:27<Arafangion>andythenorth: Rather, you should question why you wouldn't be able to do that, and if you can't, pick a better language.
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03:41<andythenorth>but (obvious) I have to explicitly declare a function, otherwise it will be evaluated
03:42*andythenorth has it solved
03:42<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23983 /trunk/src/fileio.cpp: -Fix [FS#5083]: tarred heightmaps wouldn't be found
03:43*andythenorth was bamboozled by lambdas
03:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23984 /trunk/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Fix [FS#5082]: fix the order of lights on the helipad (PaulC)
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04:06<@Terkhen>good morning
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04:10<Rhamphoryncus>Bollocks. 5 years in before I even noticed us train set had disabled itself :P
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04:26<Zuu>Write an AI instead of playing the game directly. Then you can just restart when you find out things like this. ;-)
04:32<Rhamphoryncus>I just might
04:32<Rhamphoryncus>Not soon though. I have to accomplish some world domination first.
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04:40<@planetmaker>hehe. The ominous 'play me' button :-P
04:41<@planetmaker>good morning
04:43<LordAro>playing OTTD? how do you do that?
04:43<@Alberth>playing a new game?
04:44<@planetmaker>LordAro: Try the tutorial. Maybe you then know ;-)
04:44*planetmaker is happy that this answer becomes more and more valid
04:44<@planetmaker>Zuu is doing good work on that :-)
04:45<Rhamphoryncus>planetmaker: actually, for me "world domination" involves getting patches accepted upstream ;)
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04:45*LordAro wonders if the tutorial will ever be included in 'vanilla' OTTD
04:46<@planetmaker>if you ask me: yes
04:46<@planetmaker>though certainly not before 1.3
04:47<@Alberth>so many wiki pages that need to be included first :p
04:47<@planetmaker>Well. It need not cover everything to be included IMHO
04:47<andythenorth>ooh Alberth is here :)
04:47<@Alberth>no, just the basics would be very good already
04:47*Alberth looks around
04:48<@Alberth>huh, he's here?
04:48<@Alberth>hi andy :)
04:48<andythenorth>Alberth: I've been thinking about PixaSequence
04:49<andythenorth>presumably it would be setup something like: foo = PixaSequence(seq=[...])
04:49<andythenorth>and if we have PixaLoad for external images, something like: bar = PixaSequence(PixaLoad(path, options))
04:51<@Alberth> not sure about the constructors, but something in that order, yeah
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04:55<andythenorth>do we try and spec everything first, or do I just start sticking new classes into the test code experimentally?
04:56<Rubidium>the latter, then when you're done with the experimentation create specs as then you know what you need
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04:56<@Alberth>and then trash everything and build version 2 :D
04:56<andythenorth>v3 :)
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04:59<andythenorth>PixaMixer - I don't have a clear idea of yet
04:59<andythenorth>the paste from Thursday(?) suggests it only modifies one colour
05:00<@Alberth>that was just an example
05:00<@Alberth>you seem to have many things or many ways you want to change a sequence
05:00<andythenorth>I think PixaMixers are nearly entirely custom in every case
05:00<@Alberth>for each case, make a (derived) class
05:01<andythenorth>so PixaMixers adapt sequences...
05:01<@Alberth>I think it is less bad, the general replacement pattern is fixed, the values they replace differ
05:02<@Alberth>ie you may want to replace a colour range by another one, so make such a class, and parameterize on the colour ranges to replace
05:03<andythenorth>so to use idea is either to call the sequence, passing pixamixer(s), or call the pixamixer, passing sequence
05:03<andythenorth>does it really matter either way?
05:03<@Alberth>either will do, I think
05:04<@Alberth>in fact, you could see a sequence as a special mixer, namely one that returns a fixed sequence
05:05<andythenorth>all I want to do is modify the 'return' function of the sequence
05:05<andythenorth>in between baby stuff, I'll test this with my existing code
05:06<Zuu>planetmaker: yea, 1.2 would be to early for it to stabilize. However, hopefully some 1.2 users will still find it on bananas and find it useful.
05:06<andythenorth>will be a few hours I guess :P
05:06<@planetmaker>Zuu: of course
05:07<@planetmaker>I mean... getting it into 1.2 is... not something anyone expects or thought of
05:07<@planetmaker>The question was only: will it be shipped directly later? And I think that's a good idea
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05:12<LordAro>Rubidium: your create script lags my computer somewhat :L
05:21<LordAro>Rubidium: which megapack did you use? i'm using the latest 'dev' version and it still results in errors...
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05:40<K0L3C>I think I'll never learn complicated railroad building.
05:41<@Alberth>that's fine :)
05:42<K0L3C>But I know that obviously with the knowledge of constructing complicated railroad networks I would easily win.
05:42<@Alberth>oh, you want to have competition even while playing? :(
05:43<@Alberth>real life not giving you enough challenges?
05:43<K0L3C>No, I just want to have as much fun as possible.
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05:43<Chris_Booth>K0L3C: why not find a copetition server?
05:43<K0L3C>Chris: Because I don't feel good enough.
05:45*Alberth fails to see the fun == win equation
05:46<K0L3C>I see you don't understand what am I trying to say.
05:48<K0L3C>I just want to be more skilled in building complicated networks, to then see them work successfully.
05:48<K0L3C>That's the real win, to learn something complicated.
05:48<@Alberth>that makes sense :)
05:49<@Alberth>a co-op server is a very good place to learn that, imho
05:50<@Alberth>(as Chris already said)
05:50<Rhamphoryncus>indeed, I've been learning a great deal on openttdcoop
05:51<Chris_Booth>yes K0L3C check out #openttdcoop / #openttdcoop.stable
05:51<@Alberth>note that in general, you don't need to be any good, you just need to be motivated enough to invest time and effort in it
05:51<Chris_Booth>they are a good place to start
05:57<Rubidium>LordAro: I didn't use the dev one
05:58<LordAro>i thought not :)
05:58<LordAro>i'm currently going through fixing problems with mask sprites
06:00<LordAro>Rubidium: how hard would it be to modify your script for doing all sprites (not just the ones in ogfx1_base) ?
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06:01<Rubidium>LordAro: you'd need to figure out what the offsets are of the other sprites
06:01<Rubidium>offsets as in sprite numbers
06:02<Rubidium>LordAro: there seem to be invalid PNGs in the dev package
06:03<LordAro>i'll take a look when i manage too fix all the problems with the dev package
06:03<LordAro>about the invalid PNGs: how can i find out which? all the script outputs is "Invalid PNG"
06:03<Rubidium>I reckon it's those pngs with size 0
06:04<Zuu>If you don't want to play coop, you could also join the #openttdcoop welcome server which is quite nice for playing alone.
06:04<Rubidium>and/or the ones nforenum complains about
06:04<LordAro>Rubidium: probably, how can i get ls (or similar) to display file size?
06:04<@Alberth>ls -l
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06:05<@planetmaker>LordAro: what errors does that script make?
06:06<@Alberth>ls -l | grep " 0 " <-- gives a bit less output
06:06<Rubidium>find . -size 0
06:06<@Alberth>better suggestion :)
06:06<Rubidium>then there's also quite a number of sprites that don't define x or y (or both) offsets
06:07<LordAro>unrecognised palette (warning),
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06:07<LordAro>"A portion of sprite <num> could not be processed."
06:07<Rubidium>and then there's also maybe two cases where the script goes haywire (sprite 0 and 1)
06:07<LordAro>"Invalid PNG file" <- while "Constructing NFO"
06:08<Rubidium>LordAro: those are the empty files
06:08<Rubidium>the sprite that can't be processed are mostly missing offsets
06:08<LordAro>thought as much
06:08<Rubidium>the 'nice' thing of nforenum is that it filters though out of the nfo
06:10<Rubidium>then there are also masks with 1 bit instead of 8 bit colours
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06:10<Rubidium>file *m* | grep -v '8-bit'
06:11<Rubidium>for i in *[^m].png; do pngcodec l $i | grep -v offs; done contains most of the sprites without offset
06:11<Rubidium>possibly all, but I haven't tested that
06:12<@planetmaker>for the devpack I don't get a single 32bpp sprite. All commented out
06:13<Rubidium>for i in `for i in *[^m].png; do pngcodec l $i | gr's/ .*//'; done`; do pngcodec a $i x_offs=0 y_offs=0; done should actually add offsets (of 0)
06:14<@planetmaker>yes, it does that
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06:16<Rubidium>planetmaker: your output of file probably is different
06:18<@planetmaker>3960.png: PNG image, 64 x 35, 8-bit/color RGBA, non-interlaced
06:19<@planetmaker>the 8-bit/color looks like it should be something else
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06:22<Rubidium>820_z1m.png: PNG image data, 103 x 59, 8-bit colormap, non-interlaced
06:22<Rubidium>973_z1.png: PNG image data, 74 x 36, 8-bit/color RGBA, non-interlaced
06:22<Rubidium>for me there's a 'data' extra
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06:23<@planetmaker>that's then easy to fix
06:24<LordAro>it would seem so
06:24<@planetmaker>though I have to say, an ogfx1_base.grf with 30kB size is also nice
06:25<LordAro>umm, yeah... :)
06:26<K0L3C>This looks kinda weird when two biggest ships in the game pass through themselves in a 1x1 canal.
06:26<Rubidium>planetmaker: might work better for you
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06:29<K0L3C>When you have water in land, and you demolish it, it becomes a land.
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06:31<Rubidium>again a newer version. This one creates a nfo without problems
06:32<LordAro>i should 'update' ?
06:33<appe>morning people
06:34<Rubidium>now you should
06:34<appe>i was just wondering, the materieel '34 train seems to be having the wrong speed set in it's grf.
06:34<appe>if im in game, where can i see the name of the grf a unit belongs to?
06:35<K0L3C>I think I've found a bug?
06:35<MNIM>appe: questionmark button?
06:35<Rubidium>please don't harm the bug and release it in the wild, especially if it's a lady bug
06:35<K0L3C>No, I found an OpenTTD bug.
06:35<LordAro>Rubidium: i've already fixed 2604m :)
06:36<LordAro>(of course, have to wait until tomorrow to see fix)
06:36<appe>MNIM: ah, i see.
06:36<MNIM>well, not sure if it works on moving units, actually. I know it works on tiles at least.
06:36<K0L3C>I've got an "Ś" in my name, and the last piece of Ś is out of the name bar, making white dots on the map.
06:36<K0L3C>Lemme get a screenshot
06:37<appe>the question mark button doesnt seem to respond to the trains.
06:38<MNIM>yeah, I checked it. it doesn't :(
06:38<Rubidium>LordAro: I don't really care whether it gets fixed. The script is a big hack and sprites that are done should be coded properly into opengfx
06:38<appe>the wiki articles i find about the trains tells me it was only built for 125km/h.
06:39<Zuu>K0L3C: Which font do you use? Bitmap font from OpenGFX/Original or a TTF font?
06:39<Rubidium>or at least in a proper NewGRF as the method my script employs fails for non-temperate
06:39<K0L3C>OpenTTD font.
06:39<appe>K0L3C: i get that -alot-
06:39<Rubidium>opengfx bug ;)
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06:39<appe>something that bugs me with that error is that it follow the same lines i get in my putty connection.
06:40<appe>same sort of lines, same color and distance from eachother.
06:40<appe>and the software aint related.
06:40<Zuu>K0L3C: Do you use opengfx or original graphics?
06:40<Rubidium>LordAro: to compile a grf (much) faster you should add "-n" to the grfcodec parameters
06:40<appe>i didnt report it, since i thought it was a local hardware malfunction.
06:40<Zuu>Then you use the OpenGFX font if you hasn't selected a system TTF font.
06:40<K0L3C>What's exactly TTF?
06:40<LordAro>Rubidium/whoever: i'm not sure that the 32bpp sprites should be included in the 'main' opengfx, perhaps a branch of it instead?
06:41<@planetmaker>Why shouldn't they?
06:41<K0L3C>Rubidium: I've murdered that bug.
06:41<K0L3C>It wasn't a lady bug though.
06:41<K0L3C>It was a bettle.
06:41<Zuu>K0L3C: True Type Font
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06:41<K0L3C>Doesn't OpenGFX already have TTF font?
06:41<@planetmaker>and it can't have
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06:42<K0L3C>Then what do to fix it/
06:42<Rubidium>LordAro: I would envision a 8bpp only OpenGFX build and a 32bpp/EZ "enriched" OpenGFX build
06:42<LordAro>that is precisely what i was thinking :)
06:42<Zuu>The sprite in OpenGFX that contains that character that you have problem with has probably wrong boundary size.
06:42<Rubidium>where the former can be extracted from the latter during the building stage by means of stripping the 32bpp/EZ sprites out of OpenGFX
06:43<@planetmaker>But there's no need for a branch whatsoever, LordAro
06:43<@planetmaker>for the reason Rubi just mentioned
06:43<MNIM>Appe: nice.
06:43<Zuu>K0L3C: So unless planetmaker as already noted the bug as a ticket, you should report your problem in the OpenGFX development thread.
06:43*planetmaker hasn't
06:43<Rubidium>LordAro: where I said -n I meant -u. Compiling with -n takes much longer as it tries to find the best compression whereas -u saves the sprites "uncompressed"
06:44<@planetmaker>though it looks funnily familiar
06:44<K0L3C>Zuu: It'll be hard for me to explain because my english dictionary is poor.
06:44<K0L3C>In my head ofc.
06:44<Zuu>The screenshot you made, is showing your problem and you managed to explain it here.
06:44<LordAro>planetmaker/Rubidium: ah, ok, that also makes sense :)
06:44<K0L3C>Duh, then I need to make the forum account.
06:45<LordAro>how to make a tar file from terminal?
06:45<Zuu>tar -cf my_tar.tar my_files
06:46<Zuu>my_files can of course either be a list of several files, a dictionary or using glob.
06:47<@planetmaker> /dev/urandom :-P
06:47<K0L3C>I should post it in OpenTTD Graphics right?
06:47<@Alberth>/dev/zero :)
06:47<Zuu>planetmaker: will that tar ever be completed?
06:47<@planetmaker>I guess not
06:47<K0L3C>Or rather Graphics Development?
06:48<LordAro>thats better Archive Manager (File Roller?) seems to screw up the symlinks...
06:48<@planetmaker>K0L3C: the OpenGFX thread in the graphics development forum
06:48<Rubidium>LordAro: why would you need symlinks?
06:48<K0L3C>OpenTTD Graphics?
06:48<LordAro>for the tar format, caused the sprites to be 0bytes in megapack, iirc
06:48<Zuu>K0L3C: Graphics Development
06:49<Rubidium>LordAro: but you shouldn't keep the tar format
06:49<@planetmaker>namely this thread, K0L3C:
06:49<Zuu>K0L3C: This thread:
06:49<LordAro>i know, but for now, and until jupix has more time to update stuff, i shall keep with it
06:50*appe breaks the mood by making planetmaker a strudel
06:50<Rubidium>LordAro: my script is merely meant to show that constructing the NFO from the PNGs is relatively easy and converting that to nml shouldn't be that much of an effort
06:50<@Alberth>provided you have sane images
06:50<LordAro>planetmaker/Zuu: great minds think at exactly the same pace :)
06:50<K0L3C>Okay I posted.
06:51<LordAro>Rubidium: yes, but it's also very good at finding errors :)
06:51<Rubidium>though jupix demanding documentation because he doesn't understand the script sounds to me that he isn't really a (software) engineer and that the current procedures might not be the best at all
06:51<Rubidium>it's all pretty untransparent to me
06:52<LordAro>when has he demanded documentation?
06:52<Zuu>K0L3C: Better post in the OpenGFX thread that I and planetmaker linked to than in a new thread
06:52<K0L3C>Zuu: >:|
06:52<Zuu>Before someone replies to your post you can delete it and re-post it in the thread.
06:52<Rubidium>LordAro: "I would suggest you write that manual now"
06:52<K0L3C>What the hell is so hard in already giving me a link before me posting.
06:53<Rubidium>to me that sounds like a nicely disguised demand
06:53<Rubidium>planetmaker: the meaning of the word? Or that is isn't disguised at all?
06:53<K0L3C>Great, FF freezed.
06:53<@planetmaker>the latter
06:54<K0L3C>How do I delete my thread?
06:54<@Alberth>planetmaker: perhaps not enough :)
06:54<Rubidium>planetmaker: but he "suggests" it
06:54<Zuu>K0L3C: Click on the "X" of your post.
06:54<Zuu>To the right I think.
06:55<K0L3C>And post it where exactly?
06:55<K0L3C>Gimme the link before making another mistake :<
06:55<Zuu><Zuu> K0L3C: This thread: <---
06:55<K0L3C>And make a new post in this thread?
06:55<@planetmaker>which now was given three times... :-P
06:56<@planetmaker>just reply in that thread
06:57<K0L3C>Okay, did,.
06:58<Yexo>looks like the status bar is not high enough for the font
06:58<K0L3C>Yeah, it's just one little pixel.
06:58<Zuu>Isn't it that the fon't is telling OpenTTD the wrong character height?
06:59<@planetmaker>I dimly remember to have seen that *ages* ago.
06:59<@planetmaker>though... I thought it was a long-solved issue. Maybe not
06:59<Rubidium>the sprite font has a predefined fontsize
06:59<Yexo>Zuu: if it's the pixel font in OpenGFX: the font size is hardcoded
06:59<@planetmaker>Maybe the font characters are just too high for the sprite fonts. And there's no re-sizing done for them
06:59<K0L3C>Maybe making the name bar one-two pixels bigger will fix hat?
06:59<Rubidium>and thus the sprite font is drawn too high
06:59<@planetmaker>K0L3C: rather making the letter one px smaller
07:00<Zuu>Or they might overflow at other places.
07:00<K0L3C>Then it will be an S with a .
07:00<@Alberth>K0L3C: name bar adjusts itself to the size of the contents
07:00<@planetmaker>Alberth: but not to sprite fonts, or?
07:00<appe>how come "full load any any cargo" doesnt make the train load ..full of cargo?
07:00<@planetmaker>their size is hard-coded to 6, 12, 18 px
07:00<@planetmaker>or something like that
07:00<Yexo>planetmaker: it does, to the hardcoded size of the sprite fonts
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07:00<@Alberth>planetmaker: to the size that the fonts say they have ;)
07:00<appe>it loads 50% of the carts with 100%, and the other half with 50%.
07:01<@planetmaker>Alberth: the font cannot say it has ;-) It's in fontconfig.cpp or so
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07:01<Zuu>appe: Do you have more than one cargo type on yoru train?
07:01<Zuu>That order makes sure one cargo type is loaded 100%.
07:01<Zuu>Pick the "Full load" order if you want to full load all cargo types.
07:03<appe>Zuu: yes, i do. though, when the train stops at a station that supplies only one of the cargo, it doesnt fill up all of the carts with the stuff.
07:05<_maddy>anyone available who could look at my savegame and help me with one problem?
07:05<Rubidium>I guess that depends on the version of OpenTTD and the actual problem
07:06<@planetmaker>and on asking the actual question
07:06<@planetmaker>@topic get -3
07:06<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: Don't ask to ask, just ask
07:07<_maddy>it's a routing/junction problem, my first question is how well does it work that trains get a penalty when passing a pathsignal from the backside (and using that to set a priority)
07:09<_maddy>have 2 tracks, and want trains to take left if it is free, otherwise the right one...I have 2 types of trains, and it works for one, but not the other
07:10<Zuu>How does the train types differ?
07:10<_maddy>different cargo, and different destination station, so the route is a bit different, but that is a long way from this junction
07:10<@Alberth>'other' is not behind the first one? trains also avoid driving too close to a pre-decessor
07:11<_maddy>Alberth: not sure what you mean
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07:15<_maddy>so my first question is, what is the recommended way to do priorities? and what kind of penalty does passing of pathsignal from the backside give to the pathfinder?
07:17<@Alberth>if two trains are driving after each other close to each other, the second one will try to find a different route to avoid getting blocked by the first one
07:18<_maddy>not related to my scenario though
07:20<@Alberth>if you open openttd.cfg with a text editor, you can see the penalties in the section called [pf]
07:20<_maddy>thanks, that's useful, now we are getting somewhere
07:21<@Alberth> <-- I have a lot :)
07:22<_maddy>you can modify all of them with texteditor, or does openttd overwrite the file?
07:23<@Alberth>openttd writes the file on exit, normally
07:23<@Alberth>you can also change them in-game from the console
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07:24<@Alberth>note that my cfg file is quite old, and it may contain old and obsolete settings
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07:25<_maddy>so yapf looks ahead 10 signals by default?
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07:26<@Alberth>no idea, I never looked at those settings
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07:27<@Alberth>I am happy with whatever the trains pick
07:27<@planetmaker>that's what I recall to be true
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07:29<_maddy>the values are interesting, penalty for first red is 1000 but 1500 for passing a pbs signal from the back
07:29<@Alberth>planetmaker: sounds like a lot, perhaps for people with very short block length
07:31<@planetmaker>Alberth: it's at that value as long as I remember. Or I don't remember seeing a change there
07:32*K0L3C wonders what's the reason of plastic bottles making shooting sounds in the dark.
07:32<@Alberth>planetmaker: a typical case of "don't fix it if it isn't broken" :)
07:34<@planetmaker>especially these PF values
07:34<K0L3C>planetmaker, because you are not a human being, but probably an intelligent unknown creature from outter space, please explain it to me, why plastic bottles sometimes make shooting sounds in the dark.
07:35<@planetmaker>pressure gradients and low Young's modulus?
07:36<K0L3C>Hmm, makes sense. Do you know motivations of plastic bottles doing that?
07:36<@Alberth>K0L3C: it's an illusion, they do it in day-light too
07:36<K0L3C>Do they want to slowly murder every human on Earth?
07:36<@planetmaker>no. only selected individuals. For thorough examination and replacement by a bot
07:37<_maddy>ok, seems I got this somewhat fixed by adjusting the penalty signal a bit further back, thrus reducing its value
07:39<@Alberth> <-- a succesful attempt to make a triple-track, perhaps of interest for you _maddy ?
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07:42<_maddy>Alberth: I'm such a newbie to this game that I can barely make any junctions work, I will have to play a lot more before trying to figure out complex things like that
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07:44<@Alberth>ok :)
07:44<K0L3C>"Can teenagers party without alcohol" "Yes. But why?"
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07:49<@planetmaker>K0L3C: with random, unmotivated total off-topic highlights you won't make friends here
07:50<K0L3C>planetmaker: But I wanted to ask Alberth if that's possible to make two planes crash into themselves in mid air.
07:50*MNIM panics.
07:50<MNIM>my PC is telling me that my internal HD is about to crash and burn.
07:50<@planetmaker>yes, it's possible. Go through the news of the last years
07:50<MNIM>please excuse me while I freak the fuck out.
07:51<K0L3C>Evacuate to the nuclear bunker.
07:51<K0L3C>And get some anti-depressants.
07:51<andythenorth>MNIM: stop freaking out. start backing up, carefully
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07:51<andythenorth>in priority order
07:51<@planetmaker>and, K0L3C, if you have a general question, it's good behaviour to not highlight a specific person. Unless you know that this person and only that person can answer your question
07:51<MNIM>That's what Im doing right now.
07:51<andythenorth>if you try and backup *everything* you may stress the drive
07:51<andythenorth>so pick what you really don't want to lose
07:52<K0L3C>Okay planetmaker, I won't./
07:52<MNIM>Yeah, only gonna save ~ and my self-made stuff from XPlane.
07:52<MNIM>the rest should be recoverable with an install disk or two.
07:52<andythenorth>and maybe stay out of other apps ;) they may be hitting disk for swap etc
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07:53<MNIM>...Uh. why is my home folder some ten GB large?
07:55<K0L3C>What's the biggest memory unit existing on PC's?
07:55<K0L3C>The biggest one I've heard of was a Petabyte or something like that, which is 1024TB
07:55<K0L3C>How much is it?
07:56<Rubidium>@calc 2**(24*3)
07:56<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: 4722366482869645213696
07:56<K0L3C>Of what?
07:56<Eddi|zuHause>shouldn't that be like a Yobbiebyte? :p
07:56<K0L3C>That's hard to calculate to PB's
07:56<@planetmaker>MNIM: 10 GB for your home folder is... small
07:56<MNIM>In linux?
07:57<Rubidium>K0L3C: it isn't
07:57<@planetmaker>considering that all your data should reside therein (or sub folders)
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07:57<Rubidium>1 yottabyte = 1024 zetta byte = 1048576 exa byte = Afrekening hosting server 2011
07:57<MNIM>Well, I avoid putting any self-made data in there, but game data and settings do reside there.
07:57<Rubidium>hmm, copy failed
07:57<K0L3C>Mind fucked.
07:57<@planetmaker>MNIM: where do you put your data then, if not in your home dir?
07:57<MNIM>and a lot of that is hard to reproduce.
07:58<@planetmaker>the root dir?
07:58<MNIM>Separate partitions.
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07:58<MNIM>separate drives, in face.
07:58<@planetmaker>yes... but aren't they part of the home dir?
07:58<Rubidium>= 1073741824 petabyte
07:58<MNIM>other drives reside in /media/
07:58<MNIM>at least they do in buntu 10.10
07:58<K0L3C>Too many.
07:58<K0L3C>Imagine the porn.
07:58<@planetmaker>sounds tedious. I mount my 2nd HDD to ~/data :-)
07:59<andythenorth>my ~/ is so big it's still calculating :P
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07:59<Rubidium>though I must've made an error
07:59<MNIM>automount. anyway, I prefer it to have programs pull data from the main drive, not the external disk.
07:59<Eddi|zuHause>/media is for automounted stuff, i mount my drives in /mnt, and put symlinks to them in ~
07:59<Rubidium>@calc 2**80
07:59<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: 1208925819614629174706176
08:00<Rubidium>that's better for number of bytes in a yottabyte
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08:00<@planetmaker>hm, is there a way to start the SE with a complete map generated?
08:00<@planetmaker>without the need to click half a dozen times?
08:01<Rubidium>planetmaker: nope
08:01<MNIM>Hmmmh. there's one suspect.
08:01<MNIM>~/.UT2004 contains at least a gig.
08:01<Rubidium>~/.VirtualBox contains at least 80GB ;)
08:01<Eddi|zuHause>917G 795G 123G 87% /home
08:01<MNIM>ah, and there's the rest: ~/.wine contains 7.4GB
08:02<@planetmaker>pity. But sounds like a feature request I could write in my own book
08:02<Yexo>~/openttd contains over 10G, but I'm sure others will beat that
08:02<@planetmaker>Yexo: sure
08:02<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: start a new game, load it in SE?
08:02<andythenorth>my ~/ is 171GB
08:02*andythenorth shrugs
08:03<K0L3C>What's ~/?
08:03<Rubidium>my .openttd is only 1.3G
08:03<Yexo>my .openttd is only 422M
08:03<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: weird, i have 2G
08:03<Yexo>not enough savegames / scenarios
08:03<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: more savegames?
08:03<K0L3C>My openttd is only 32MB
08:03<Eddi|zuHause>although, that covers my development grf checkouts
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08:04<Eddi|zuHause>saves are 1GB
08:04<Rubidium>though I can easily add ~150 MiB of NewGRFs (two NewGRFs to be precises)
08:04<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: 32bpp-complete? :p
08:05<Rubidium>more 32bpp incomplete
08:05<Rubidium>still so much is missing
08:05<Rubidium>but it's less visible than with opengfx missing sprites
08:05<Rubidium>furthermore there are some graphical issues with 32bpp sprites
08:05<@planetmaker>LordAro: btw, is it correct that I found no single sprite in the arctic, toyland, tropical and logo folders?
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08:06<LordAro>of the megapack?
08:06<Rubidium>e.g. their shadows which glitch significantly when scrolling
08:06<LordAro>no... :L
08:06<Rubidium>the non-dev doesn't contain sprites beyond the base1 folder
08:06<@planetmaker>I downloaded the one from 24 Feb. And found not a single png in those folders
08:06<Eddi|zuHause>shadows are just alpha-channel tranparency, or?
08:06<Rubidium>the dev version has sprites in other folders as well
08:06<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: yes
08:07<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: but they reach far outside of the bounding box of the sprites
08:07<Eddi|zuHause>ah, ok.
08:07<@planetmaker>I think all openttd stuff covers 36GB here. Add the ~/Documents/OpenTTD folder with NewGRFs
08:07<@planetmaker>and saves which is another 3 ... 5 GB
08:07<LordAro>planetmaker/Rubidium: yes, i think thats because no non-base1 sprite is finished to the satisfaction of the standard pack
08:08<LordAro>alternateively, it may be broken :)
08:08<Rubidium>my script doesn't work on them anyway
08:08<Rubidium>and it even makes temperate sprites show in non temperate climates
08:08<Rubidium>which is why the script is and always remains a hack
08:09<Eddi|zuHause>someone explain to me why civ5 stopped working?
08:10<LordAro>windoze hate you :P
08:11<Eddi|zuHause>no such thing here :p
08:12<_maddy>does old age of trains have any negative effects if breakdowns are disabled?
08:12<Eddi|zuHause>only that it constantly spams you with old age messages :p
08:13<_maddy>actually, for some reason I'm not getting the old age messages
08:13<andythenorth>Alberth: (apart from I like the names)...I'm having trouble figuring out why PixaSequence and PixaMixer are different classes
08:14<LordAro>Eddi|zuHause: civ5 via WINE?
08:14<andythenorth>class derived from PixaSequence, with parameters when called -> would do same as PixaMixer?
08:16<@Alberth>I'd do it the other way around
08:16<@Alberth>making an empty pixa-mixer as base-class, and deriving a pixa-sequence and 'real' pixa-mixers from it
08:19<@Alberth>_maddy: you can adjust the news settings to get more spam: :)
08:23<Eddi|zuHause>hm... "27 files could not be checkt and will be redownloaded"
08:23<Eddi|zuHause>how the hell did that happen?
08:24<Eddi|zuHause>"download size: 7.7MB, remaining time: 48 hours"
08:25<K0L3C>What the hell of internet is that.
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08:27<Eddi|zuHause>... 24 seconds
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08:36<andythenorth>Alberth: would the empty PixaMixer implement much?
08:36<andythenorth>I'm kind of stuck on this bit right now :)
08:36<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: know the concept of "virtual" base classes?
08:36<andythenorth>not really
08:37<Eddi|zuHause>in python this would be: every function consists of "raise NotImplementedError"
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08:38<andythenorth>sounds like interfaces?
08:38<Eddi|zuHause>closely related
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08:40<@Alberth>basically, you make a do-nothing class, containing all functions (raising a NotImplementedError), as a description of the expected interface of such a class.
08:41<andythenorth>then inherit from it, and implement the functions?
08:41*andythenorth is a bit out of depth
08:41<Eddi|zuHause>this is very basic OOP :)
08:42<andythenorth>I always managed to avoid it so far :)
08:42<@Alberth>making empty base classes is a bit more advanced :)
08:42<andythenorth>if you use enough 'if' statements, you can avoid OOP for....about 10 years in my case
08:43<@Alberth>not sure how long I avoided it, but also for a number of years :)
08:43<Eddi|zuHause>you can avoid OOP forever, but sometimes it's the most elegant solution :)
08:44<andythenorth>in this case I have to think about the interface for grf authors as well
08:44<Eddi|zuHause>yay... it actually started...
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08:44<andythenorth>will they understand how to derive classes from a virtual base class?
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08:44<xiong>andythenorth, no.
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08:48<andythenorth>I'll implement PixaMixer and PixaSequence separately, simply, then we can see if they can be consolidated
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08:58<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23985 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt lang/english_US.txt toolbar_gui.cpp): -Fix [FS#5074]: inconsistent quit/abandon/exit game/scenario/editor strings
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09:16<LordAro>would i be correct in saying the repo would (still) be useful for storing sources of 32bpp sprites?
09:24*Alberth stores all sources in a repo
09:25<@Alberth>a repo beats manually exchanging & updating files by several miles
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09:28<Rubidium>LordAro: the repo being Jupix thing? Then probably not
09:29<Rubidium>the sources should be packaged with the thing compiling them, so if they would be in OpenGFX then the sources must be in OpenGFX
09:29<@planetmaker>LordAro: I'd add the usable 32bpp sprites bit by bit to the (existing) OpenGFX repo
09:29<Rubidium>'s repository
09:30<@planetmaker>and actually I'd very much appreciate all help I can get there. I can yet create an OpenGFX with 32bpp due to NML not having that support yet. But that's bound to happen soon, I guess
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09:30<@planetmaker>But then... I think we could already go through what can be included. But... I asked you that 2 months ago already :-)
09:31<LordAro>i know :)
09:31<LordAro>working on that... :)
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10:24<_maddy>so how did you guys manage to get openttd so stable? I play nightly builds and still pretty much no crashes
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10:29<Zuu>_maddy: Any patches that are commited to trunk have to be reviewed and checked before the devs might accept them.
10:30<Zuu>Among the devs themself I would guess that they review the work of others before it is added.
10:30<@planetmaker>Yes, we do.
10:31<Zuu>Additionally good bug reports to are useful to iron out bugs.
10:31<MINM>Well, what helps is that with OTTD bugs go before features
10:32<MINM>whereas with most modern coding efforts like, say, mainstream games, where games are released with known bugs because 'oh well, we'll patch that in a week'
10:37<Ammler>openttd has no deadline :-)
10:38<Yexo>most important reason: a lot of big features are not included on grounds of: not stable enough, needs more review, etc.
10:38<frosch123>_maddy: no idea, ottd is crashing for me all day already
10:38<Yexo>even one known bug is a good enough reason not to include some feature
10:42<MINM>Depends on how large that bug is, eh
10:43<@planetmaker>not really
10:43<@planetmaker>more on whether it's a known bug or not ;-)
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11:02<supermop>good morning
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12:18<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r23986 /trunk/src/spritecache.cpp: -Fix (r23889): Invalid reads when scaling an odd-sized sprite smaller.
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12:20<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r23987 /trunk/src/ (fontcache.cpp fontcache.h gfxinit.cpp): -Fix (r23000): Also reset the font glyph cache when switching blitters.
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12:22<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r23988 /trunk/src/blitter/32bpp_optimized.cpp: -Fix: Typo in comment.
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12:39<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r23989 /trunk/src/blitter/ (32bpp_optimized.cpp 8bpp_optimized.cpp): -Fix-ish: Zero the offsets of disabled zoomlevels.
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12:47<K0L3C>Too quiet.
12:48<LordAro>Loud Noises!
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12:57<frosch123>psst - don't wake dorpsgek
12:59<@DorpsGek>too late
13:01<K0L3C>Oh no.
13:01<K0L3C>What did you do frosch123/!
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13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r23990 /trunk/src/lang/ (15 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: catalan - 5 changes by arnau
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: simplified_chinese - 9 changes by chenwt0315
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: french - 3 changes by glx
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frisian - 1 changes by Flexo
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: korean - 6 changes by telk5093
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13:58<K0L3C>Too quiet.
14:00<K0L3C>Not too quiet now.
14:02<LordAro>thats the second time you've said that :L
14:03<K0L3C>It's quiet now.
14:03<frosch123>hmm. is "k.A." really the german translation of "N/A"?
14:03<K0L3C>It's a bit loud here.
14:04<frosch123>K0L3C: i am trying to play ottd in russian, so please stay quiet
14:05<K0L3C>It's too loud now.
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14:10<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: depends on context
14:11<frosch123>for the cargo amount tab of trains
14:11<frosch123>vehicles show "5 tons of coal", engines show "N/A" in english
14:12<frosch123>german uses "k.A." which probably means "keine Angabe", but i first thought of "keine Ahnung" ...
14:12<frosch123>... which sounds hillarious :)
14:13<K0L3C>I can't find them sounding hilarious.
14:13<Eddi|zuHause>yes :)
14:13*valhallasw kicks mercurial
14:13<Eddi|zuHause>could possibly be replaced with "keine"
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14:14<Eddi|zuHause>hm... i once had a program that could view the contents of the registry
14:14<Eddi|zuHause>but i forgot what it was called
14:14<valhallasw>or do you mean a /different/ registry? ;-)
14:15<Eddi|zuHause>no, "offline", i.e. of a not-running windows
14:15<frosch123>^^ lists both
14:15<valhallasw>Eddi|zuHause: ah. possibly?
14:17<K0L3C>Eddi|zuHause = Eddi|inHouse? Right?
14:17<Eddi|zuHause>K0L3C: more like "at home"
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14:17<K0L3C>Oh, this time I tried to translate it without using the translator.
14:18<Eddi|zuHause>which btw. is the location of my computer, not necessarily my current location :)
14:18<K0L3C>Same thing.
14:20<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: regedit :)
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14:21<Eddi|zuHause>it was a program where i could enter the location of some system files, and it showed me the content of the registry
14:21<+michi_cc>It can both read the registry over LAN if sufficient permissions are present and can also directly read registry files from disk.
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14:27<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: so... how?
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14:31<+michi_cc>Files are normally C:\Windows\System32\config\{SOFTWARE,SYSTEM} and NTUSER.DAT in each profile folder.
14:32<+michi_cc> has everything on one page
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14:43<Eddi|zuHause>this is all not entirely what i meant
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>but maybe it works
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15:08<pckm-crazy>i came in hear to aska question
15:09<Yexo>go ahead
15:09<pckm-crazy>anyone know if chris sawyer is still making games D: or did he just turn his back on making games?
15:10<Yexo>no clue
15:10<pckm-crazy>i wanna atleast know what he dose now
15:10<pckm-crazy>he is such a good game maker
15:11<Zuu>have you checked his homepage?
15:11<pckm-crazy>hasent been updated since 2009 D:
15:12<__ln__>you need to contact his agent.
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15:13<pckm-crazy>i couldint find anything like that. all i could fine was some links to people who helped him on the game and only one of the returned my email. he was the man who made all the 3-d models. his website is i think
15:14<Zuu>On there is a link to his agent.
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15:15<pckm-crazy>just tried the link. it never loads D:
15:15<FLHerne>It does for me
15:16<pckm-crazy>wierd...... ill try again
15:17<pckm-crazy> right?
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15:18<pckm-crazy>not loading for some reason....
15:19<Zuu>Do you block js?
15:19<pckm-crazy>whats j's?
15:19<Zuu>I have no idea how it looks with js blocked as it looks like some css+js dynamic thing.
15:19<pckm-crazy>i dont think so. ill check
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15:22<Yexo>it works fine without javascript
15:22<pckm-crazy>yah, it just dosint load
15:22<pckm-crazy>its wierd....
15:22<pckm-crazy>i wonder if its cause im on my mac
15:23<Zuu>Try to use a proxy eg. fulifier: :-)
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15:24<pckm-crazy>still no D:
15:24<Zuu> <--- this doesn't give anything?
15:25<Zuu>It should give you something that looks like 1994
15:25-!-tokai|mdlx [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:26<Zuu>hmm, or perhaps more like 1997 when more kids got internet and made ugly websites. :-)
15:27<pckm-crazy>that one starts loading but dosint finish
15:27<__ln__>english only
15:28<pckm-crazy>lol wat?
15:28<Rubidium>maybe Chris Sawyer/Marjacq are doing bad things as described in ACTA and American providers are asked to block that?
15:30<pckm-crazy>oh i rember going to that site a few monthes ago! XD now i rember, i just rember not being able to fine an email or anything
15:31<Eddi|zuHause>mäh i hate windows...
15:31<andythenorth>Alberth: I thought a picture might help...
15:31<Zuu>They both have phone number and email on their contact page.
15:31<Zuu>You can even send them a fax
15:31<Zuu>Or at least they have written their fax number in case you can get access to one.
15:33<andythenorth>Alberth: the diagram is conceptual rather than specific to python code
15:34<__ln__>in any case, as far as i know: this channel does not represent Chris Sawyer, and all we know about him is through public sources such as his website.
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15:36<@Alberth>andythenorth: looks nice, and mostly like I have in mind. the 'coloursets' seem new
15:37<@Alberth>but perhaps they were mostly implicit so far
15:37<pckm-crazy>i tried setting up a forum a few years ago to try and contact him, and get a large group of people to come and join to try and show how many people wanted him, but it felt kinda..... stalkerish
15:39<+michi_cc>andythenorth: Would it make sense to have a configurable scan order/origin to allow better back/front ordering for different views?
15:41<@Alberth>pckm-crazy: why this obsession, he just sold the same game engine three times
15:42<pckm-crazy>its a long sad (very sad actaully) story that you probubly dont wanna read XD
15:42<pckm-crazy>its not just CS ither. its also the makers of the neverhood and maxis. the guys who made cim city
15:43<andythenorth>Alberth: the colour sets were implicit - they're how you specify 1CC or 2CC, or coal or iron ore etc
15:44<andythenorth>they're just another layer of indirection, vars
15:44<@Alberth>mostly stuff you organize around the code :p
15:44<andythenorth>michi_cc: configurable scan order makes sense, so far I haven't found a need for it though
15:45<pckm-crazy>but its just the feel. something about the smoothness of chris sawyers games makes it so much more fun
15:45<@Alberth>michi_cc: as I understood from andy, you make every view separately, not much re-use of the same sheet for different views
15:46<andythenorth>no I just scan all 8 views at once
15:46<andythenorth>it just works
15:46<@Alberth>you're just lucky :p
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15:47<+michi_cc>It sill might make sense to start at the left e.g. for \ view and at the right for / so you have a kind of matching back-to-front order.
15:47<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r23991 /trunk/src/ (52 files in 3 dirs): -Fix [FS#5076]: Also display the cargo subtype for vehicles which have no capacity, but a subtype.
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15:58<andythenorth>if I need to handle back/front ordering issues, it tends to require another render pass anyway (e.g. compositing multiple layers)
15:58<andythenorth>compositing is fairly trivial
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16:19<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: so how long until you can use this as a floor plan? :)
16:19<Eddi|zuHause> <-- better link
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16:23<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: pretty much now probably, with a bit of work
16:23<andythenorth>check out BANDIT and hack on it if you wish ;)
16:24<andythenorth>btw, you might have another customer for CETS code soon
16:24<andythenorth>one of our canadian friends has decided he likes the cut of your jib
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17:16<K0L3C>It's quiet. :<
17:16-!-bryjen [~bryjen@] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
17:16*K0L3C gives alluke a delicious pancake
17:17-!-kkb110 [~kkb110@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-03.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
17:18<K0L3C>Why you won't eat that pancake.
17:18<K0L3C>It's delicious, with cyani- Uh, sugar.
17:18<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23992 /trunk/src/fontcache.h: -Fix: compilation without freetype
17:22<alluke>*eats the delicious pancake
17:22<K0L3C>Ha, it was a poisoned pancake.
17:22<alluke>too much sugar
17:22<K0L3C>Now you will DIE
17:23<alluke>by who?
17:23<K0L3C>By a guy that I cannot ping.
17:23<alluke>do it
17:23<alluke>ill die soon and i cant forward it to cops
17:24<K0L3C>It starts with p
17:26<Yexo>first a p, than a backspace, than a k, than a round thingy followed by an el, than a backwards E can finally some half-circle with an opening to the right
17:26<K0L3C>Wypierre Dole Vas
17:26<pugi>do i know you? :D
17:26<K0L3C>Are you the same person that is on #dwarffortress?
17:27<K0L3C>It's me, d0rfer
17:27<pugi>there is only one pugi :D
17:27<pugi>ah :D
17:27<Yexo>perhaps you can take the discussion there?
17:27*valhallasw wonders what the heck is happening with all the youngsters shouting in here
17:27*andythenorth wtfs
17:27*K0L3C barfs
17:27*valhallasw moves back to his reclining chair and turns the volume of his soothing Bach to 11
17:27<pugi>where are the youngsters?
17:28<alluke>valhallasw retirement home is that ------> way :P
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17:29<alluke>yes ma'am?
17:29*K0L3C steals val's radio.
17:29-!-K0L3C is now known as d0rfer
17:31<valhallasw>d0rfer: a radio? is that some kind of fancy modern equipment? I have a mighty fine phonograph, thank you
17:32<d0rfer>What kind of evil is that?!
17:32*d0rfer throws val's phonograph into the fire
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17:45<Eddi|zuHause>it's kind of like an ipod
17:45<Eddi|zuHause>just bigger
17:45<Eddi|zuHause>and can't store many songs
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18:56<alluke>hmm-mm is as here?
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21:04<null0010>anyone know why my train at a coal mine is stuck at 0% on loading coal?
21:05<null0010>i just downloaded 1.1.5 and started a new game in 1945
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21:05<null0010>i have two train routes, each leading from a coal mine to the same power station
21:05<null0010>one of my train routes is operating just fine, picking up coal and delivering it to the power station as it should
21:05-!-frosch [] has joined #openttd
21:06<null0010>the other is sitting at the coal mine at 0% loading asnd has been for about six months in game
21:06<frosch>maybe it is not refitted to coal
21:06<null0010>what do you mean refitted?
21:07<null0010>i haven't played this game since it was not open source and 2002ish
21:07<frosch>some vehicles are refittable to different cargos
21:07-!-roboboy [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:07<frosch>but if you are not using any newgrf addons, they are probably not refittable :)
21:08<frosch>does the station list "coal" under "supplies"?
21:08<null0010>oh dear god i feel stupid
21:08<null0010>an iron mine
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21:44<xiong>Well, I've just completed an exhaustive, exhausting series of junction tests. I've controlled for a number of factors and loaded all 12 routes through a (four way) junction.
21:45<xiong>I figured out a way to normalize results made with different numbers of trains and different train lengths. Since I'm using mail, it works out to "bags per day" passed by the jct.
21:47<xiong>So the bad news is: Under some conditions, the simple jct, consisting of two pair of track crossing each other level with some interlocking, is as efficient as a fancy jct (within limits of error).
21:49<xiong>Short, 2-tile trains derive no benefit from fancy jcts; they clear the interlocking fast enough on their own. For these, as much time is consumed waiting to merge on the exit branch than in waiting to enter.
21:50<xiong>Long, 6-tile trains do benefit from moderately complex jct. However, increasing complexity, providing multiple paths, do *not* lead to significant improvement. Eventually all trains exiting to the same line must merge and that's the limiting factor.
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21:58<xiong>Efficiency is *greatly* increased by use of longer trains. We knew this. What might not have been clear is that longer trains completely swamp jct improvements, at least at this scale.
22:02<Rhamphoryncus>xiong: how simple is your simple junction?
22:02<xiong>As simple as possible. Pic?
22:03<Rhamphoryncus>1 sec
22:03<xiong>The jct shown in wiki is overelaborate.
22:03<Rhamphoryncus>Yeah, that's overkill
22:03<Rhamphoryncus>But take that, replace with path signals, remove redundant tracks
22:03<Rhamphoryncus>is that what you're using?
22:05<xiong>I don't use anything except path signals.
22:05<xiong>Either standard path or one-way path.
22:06<Rhamphoryncus>The yellow is one-way path in your set?
22:06<xiong>You see I have sufficient trains to maintain a queue at each entry; and loops long enough to hold a good amount of trains without backing up to the exit.
22:07<xiong>Ah yes. One-ways at entry. Although, you know, under the circumstances, it hardly matters.
22:07<Rhamphoryncus>A queue? Does that mean your trains are always entering it from a stop?
22:08<xiong>In fact I did a run with all standard path, which caused some wacky action, trains going the wrong way through the loop until they hit a depot and turned around. Surprisingly, this caused very little delay over the long run.
22:08<xiong>Correct. There's almost always a queue.
22:08<Rhamphoryncus>One-ways almost never matter. They're only useful to prevent rare and undesirable pathing
22:09<Rhamphoryncus>Try with trains that don't stop. That'll be a large factor.
22:09<xiong>My interest in in performance of a jct under load; not in how fast rare mains can jam through.
22:09<Rhamphoryncus>openttdcoop junctions are designed to minimize stopping.
22:09<xiong>I'm not sure there's actually a reasonable way to test those, anyway. If they don't stop, how do you know the jct is at capacity?
22:10<Rhamphoryncus>ideally you get sporadic stoppage with then clears
22:10<Rhamphoryncus>And a priority merge lets you have one path go without stopping
22:11<xiong>Well, I mean no offense to say that I don't understand coop thinking. I'm a fan of real rail. I can't find many prototype instances of fancy jcts... at all. Certainly these huge 24-tile jcts I see, with 12 bridges and tunnels... no.
22:11<Rhamphoryncus>Check the openttdcoop archives
22:11<xiong>You seem to be making an assumption that some main is more important than some branch. In my test setup, all four legs are equal.
22:12<Rhamphoryncus>I'm not, but it still can help
22:12<Rhamphoryncus>And since you are doing testing.. it's something to test :)
22:12<xiong>Sorry, I've seen. Just not my cup of tea. Tends to the enormous.
22:13<Rhamphoryncus>I've noticed that long trains work better too, but they're not necessarily as interesting to network
22:13<xiong>Testing is arduous. The bigger everything gets, the longer the test must be to give any significance.
22:13<Rhamphoryncus>Yeah, in my private games I prefer long trains with signals every 5th rather than 2nd, which makes junctions MUCH easier
22:13<xiong>If you allow yourself more land, you automatically make everything easier.
22:14<xiong>I don't see that signal density on the line has anything to do with jct?
22:15<Rhamphoryncus>Well you know that going from 2 to 5 creates a congestion point, right?
22:15<xiong>Um, no.
22:15<xiong>In fact, I'd disagree. It's only apparent.
22:16<xiong>Depending on your meaning of "congestion point".
22:16<Rhamphoryncus>Are you saying that is purely visual?
22:17<xiong>That's a complex jct -- complex routes, complex signaling. I can't speak to effects at these large scales.
22:18<xiong>Unless I miscount, that's 11 tiles across for a Y.
22:18<xiong>That's not even a 3-way jct.
22:19<xiong>And you've got -- again, unless I miss my count -- 4 track lines in all three directions.
22:19<Rhamphoryncus>We'll I've noticed it in very simple cases, depending on train weight and such. You can have a single wide loop with a bunch of trains and regular signals, and if they all go from a stop to a start smoothly they'll stay at max speed. If the spacing is wrong and they don't start smoothly you can have a point of compression (where they slow down, then the one behind slows down, etc) that travels in a backwards wave around the loop
22:19<Rhamphoryncus>No, that is a 3-way
22:19<xiong>Yes, I've seen that.
22:19<Rhamphoryncus>That's a LL_RR
22:20<Rhamphoryncus>Not all of it is shown though
22:20<xiong>Sorry, I disagree, Sir. Trains coming from the north cannot exit to the east.
22:20<Rhamphoryncus>There's a split off the bottom and top and a merge off the right
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22:20<xiong>Well then, if that's only a part of it, then the entire jct is much, much larger.
22:20<Rhamphoryncus>Hrm. You're right. My mistake.
22:21<xiong>I have seen a lot of jcts. I've seen sprawls of 30 or 40 tiles, four tracks each way. Unrealistic.
22:21<Rhamphoryncus>realism isn't the point ;)
22:22<Rhamphoryncus>It's network design, almost at an abstract level
22:22<xiong> -- my contributions are Industrial Star and Sunken Star. I consider the Industrial variation obsoleted by the Sunken.
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22:23<xiong>Well see, that's the big problem with this game! Too many people are in it from some abstract viewpoint; while others are stuck with an absurdly realistic viewpoint.
22:23<xiong>So the game is a muddy compromise and nothing works right.
22:24<xiong>Here was my argument for an abstract, usable signal set:
22:24<xiong>You see that after nearly a year, somebody finally coded it up... omitting path signals, no explanation given.
22:25<Rhamphoryncus>sunken star is a nice design
22:25<xiong>As you can see (and in much chat), I heard tons of arguments that all came down to how realistic the signals *look*. Of course, bigsig has nothing to do with realism.
22:26<Rhamphoryncus>Eh, I don't think "muddy compromise" is the real reason we have issues
22:26<xiong>TY, glad you like it. However, under actual testing, it turns out not to perform significantly better than simple except when longer trains are used; and only when properly signaled.
22:27<xiong>For that matter, there's an unfixable tradeoff when signaling. Optimum signaling for long trains is *very* bad for short ones.
22:28<xiong>The key to Sunken Star is that the back end of long trains helps to push them up and out. Short trains are defeated by signals that have them starting from a stop at the bottom.
22:28<xiong>OTOH, the same jct with no internal signals does not outperform the simple, regardless of train length.
22:29<xiong>So if you're playing unrealistically, with all trains a standard length, it's of course easier to build your network.
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22:30<xiong>Real railroads have highly heterogeneous traffic -- long trains, short trains, heavy trains, pax, freight.
22:31<xiong>Sunken Star signaled conservatively, with a single signal at the foot of each bridge and another on the right-hand-turn route, works well for both short and long trains. The gain over simple is significant for long trains by about 35%.
22:31<Rhamphoryncus>openttdcoop has adopted that largely due to the limitations of the game
22:31<xiong>For short, no significant gain.
22:31<Rhamphoryncus>And they do mix things up
22:32<Rhamphoryncus>Are your longer trains using a single engine? Or do they multiply it to keep up with shorter?
22:32<xiong>I'm not saying all fancy jcts are necessarily worthless. But you do pay many prices for them and the payoff is unclear.
22:33<xiong>Look again:
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22:33<Rhamphoryncus>ah right
22:34<Rhamphoryncus>So you're just combining multiple consists. Like a real life mammoth train.
22:34<xiong>In real life, even single mains are common. I find them to be impractical with openttd and paying for double mains reasonable. So already, there's a split.
22:34<Rhamphoryncus>So rather than train/gap/train/gap/train/gap you have train/train/train/train/train/gap
22:35<xiong>Note the date. These are 1849 Americans. One barely pulls 4 fully-loaded mail cars with freight multiplier at 5.
22:35<Rhamphoryncus>That's another unknown factor then :/
22:36<xiong>Correct. The entire virtue of the train, as a concept, is that gaps between vehicles are eliminated. Long trains work better than short ones, given the same power/drag and TE/drag ratios.
22:36<xiong>What unknown factor?
22:36<Rhamphoryncus>You are seriously pessimising your junction with slow to accelerate trains that are always going from a stop
22:36<xiong>Well, what's unknown about that?
22:37<Rhamphoryncus>It could easily change the efficiencies
22:37<Rhamphoryncus>I do expect you'll still find long trains are better, but if a complex junction avoids stopping it will perform better
22:38<xiong>You mean "change" as in "change from faster and more powerful trains".
22:38<xiong>To me, that's no change at all. This is how I play; I start in 1850.
22:38<xiong>I can't think the last time I played until 1900.
22:39<Rhamphoryncus>Normal games at at least 1950 start. Often later.
22:40<xiong>Last "real" game I played, it took me 5 days, real time, to get to 1871.
22:40<xiong>All the fun of railroading is in early steam.
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22:40<xiong>... for me. I have to say for me.
22:41<Rhamphoryncus>I keep starting early games but I end up being disappointed. I suspect that's due to not having the right trainset though.
22:41<xiong>1950 is just the default when you fire up a fresh install.
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22:41<xiong>Well, what you see is NARS.
22:42<xiong>You also need early road vehicles.
22:42<Rhamphoryncus>I'll have to give it a try
22:43<xiong>All my road vehicles are horse drawn. They outperform early steam RVs.
22:44<Rhamphoryncus>yeah, that I noticed
22:44<xiong>You do get a peculiar effect with early "trams" -- streetcars. They're horse drawn but the catenaries are still drawn in.
22:45<xiong>I'm so glad that transparent catenaries have finally come in.
22:45<xiong>This business of not stopping for a junction: This is unreasonable, I think.
22:46<xiong>If the jct is at capacity, you must have trains waiting to enter.
22:47<xiong>Theoretically, there is a point *just* at saturation where trains do not wait; where there is one *just* ready to sail through. But this is not possible to achieve, in reality, in game, or even in a test game without huge fussbudgetry.
22:48<xiong>On the other hand, if the jct is operating at less than full cap, then clearly you are not finding the capacity.
22:49<Rhamphoryncus>Okay, what's your testing setup. How long are those tracks?
22:49<Rhamphoryncus>I'm going to duplicate it and try my own experimentation
22:49<Chris_Booth>xiong: If toy have things waiting build a depot
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22:50<xiong>Well, if you want to duplicate, I think you really should just start with my files. Safer than explaining all.
22:50<Rhamphoryncus>grasshopper! :D But it's not right without hexediting to make it have 65535 HP and 65535 max speed XD
22:50<Rhamphoryncus>true enough
22:51<xiong>I do have places for depoting with the Sunken Star. But depoting confuses the testing setup.
22:51<xiong>Anyway, the loop length is irrelevant. Make the loops very long and then fill up with trains.
22:52<xiong>Obviously, the longer the loops and the more trains, the longer the total run. But that's fine.
22:52<xiong>Let me explain the normalization and you'll see why the exact layout and load fades into insignificance.
22:53<xiong>I've got 4 waypoints and each train is ordered around so as to exercise each of the 12 possible paths once.
22:53<xiong>So each train must cross the test jct 12 times per run.
22:54<xiong>There's no opportunity for a train to skip a waypoint, after all; and the long loops with all their signals mean that a train will not prefer a wrong turn. Clear?
22:55<xiong>So whether there is 1 train or 36, the total length of each run is the same.
22:55*Rhamphoryncus nods
22:55<xiong>Also, except for minor variations, jct geometry doesn't affect this, either.
22:56<Rhamphoryncus>So you just pick a train to follow and time how long it takes to complete a cycle?
22:56<xiong>But here's the interesting bit: if there is always a queue of trains at each entry branch then the loop length is irrelevant.
22:56<xiong>Since, no matter how long the loop is, the train waits until it comes to the head.
22:57<xiong>So, I calculate thusly: 12 xings per train; 240 bags of mail per train (varies by train length); so many days for a randomly selected train to autofill its timetable.
22:58<Rhamphoryncus>Are these trains empty or full?
22:58<xiong>Example: run-23 701 days 288 xings 24 trains, 240 bags each 99 bpd
22:58*Rhamphoryncus nods
22:59<xiong>Oh, all full. I full-load them at a distant town and warm up the test bed, depot the trains equally (as you see in the screenshot), and start the run.
22:59<xiong>There is no re-entry to the town; they stay fully loaded. That's why 4 waypoints, not 4 stations. Eliminates any station questions.
22:59*Rhamphoryncus nods
23:00<xiong>So that final figure of 99 bags per day depends only on consist and jct design.
23:00<xiong>Loop length, line signals are all eliminated as factors. And the normalization to bpd provides a way to compare different consists, so long as they are equally powered.
23:01<Rhamphoryncus>It's a good setup
23:01<xiong>Nor does it matter how many trains are in the test set, so long as there is alway a queue waiting. In fact, even if there are occasional voids in queue, the bpd figure does not shift significantly.
23:02<xiong>Thank you. Was a bitch to set up.
23:02<xiong>I've spent about 16 hours doing runs. I need more hardware.
23:03<xiong>These are slow trains! And even on "fast", a run takes several minutes to complete.
23:04<xiong>You see from the above example, 701 days to complete the run. That's a good 5 minutes or so -- I haven't wallclocked anything, since I don't consider that germane.
23:05<xiong>You see the depots are just past the waypoints. With breakdowns off, the trains never depot unless expressly ordered.
23:06<xiong>I turn on autofill for a train in depot then start all trains. By the time the selected train has managed to make the first waypoint in schedule, and starts to timetable, the jct is fully involved and traffic through it has stabilized.
23:06<xiong>It should be clear that any selected train will be almost exactly representative of the mean; since there is no way for trains to bypass one another.
23:07<xiong>I guess, in more complex jcts, such a thing could happen. But I would assume that random effects would swamp any such exception.
23:07<xiong>In any case, with all trains sharing the same orders, I don't believe I've made a flawed assumption.
23:09<Rhamphoryncus>Any particular WP pattern? I doubt it matters though
23:09<xiong>I've selected the same vehicle and made the identical test twice, gotten identical results; and selected a different vehicle and gotten results to within about 10%.
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23:12<xiong>Let me shot you the overall, with signs on.
23:13<Rhamphoryncus>my nars is different, heh
23:13<Rhamphoryncus>Which engine?
23:16*Rhamphoryncus nods
23:17<Rhamphoryncus>Have you used fast-foward?
23:17<xiong>That's the American 4-4-0 (1849); 50 Mph, 450 hp, 30 kN. Each engine pulls 4 Mail Carriages, 60 Mph, 22/27 ton, cap 20 bags. 2.0 tiles per train; Freight multiplier: 5; Realistic acceleration: ON; Slope steepness for trains: 3%.
23:18<xiong>Oh yes. That's what I was saying earlier: I need more hardware! Even FF is slow with 24 or 36 trains running.
23:18<xiong>Of course it's irrelevant to the test, as is wallclock time.
23:18<Rhamphoryncus>err.. 128 km/h, 1166 hp, 106 kN
23:18<xiong>You have a much newer engine.
23:19<xiong>That's not an American built in 1849.
23:19<xiong>NARS gives 4 variants of the American.
23:20<Rhamphoryncus>I jumped forward in time
23:20<xiong>Note that it's a real bitch to upgrade an older vehicle to a newer variant. Autoreplace won't do it; and it may be too soon for autorenew.
23:21<xiong>I generally either suck it up or autoreplace to something else, then back to the American.
23:21<xiong>All of this irrelevant to jct testing, of course.
23:22<xiong>The orders, once all trains have fully loaded at Harrisburg, are: ADCB-ABDB-CACD. Hyphens inserted only for readability.
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23:23<xiong>This exercises each route through the jct once per run. I don't consider here whether the jct might permit multiple routes for a train, say, from A to B.
23:23<xiong>4 waypoints, 3 orders per waypoint; 12 orders in all, 12 xings of the jct.
23:24<xiong>Refer to shot for wp id.
23:25<xiong>They're just lettered clockwise.
23:25<Rhamphoryncus>Yeah, I used a slightly different pattern but the effect is the same
23:26<xiong>It's just an Eulerian circuit over a digraph.
23:26<Rhamphoryncus>3 trains in each depot, each to one other WP, 12 trains total. Then repeat that for larger scales?
23:27<xiong>Well, crank it up as you like. I found no real benefit to adding much more trains. Once there's a queue, the jct is at full capacity. Additional trains only extend wallclock on the run.
23:28*Rhamphoryncus shrinks his window and holds down tab
23:28<xiong>And as I said: To my surprise, I didn't get significantly different results even when void queues popped up on occasion.
23:28<xiong>You can just click the FF button and it will stay.
23:29<Rhamphoryncus>oh right. One of my builds has a buggy button for some reason. This one works fine though.
23:29<xiong>Um, I'm not sure by your previous remark if you're doing this the same way at all. Each train I have sharing orders with all others.
23:30<xiong>Each train is ordered to all 4 waypoints, 3 times for each waypoint.
23:31<Rhamphoryncus>Oh wait, not as easy as I was thinking.. to get an even spread on the schedule
23:32<xiong>To ensure that each train takes the same route, therefore the same total time over the run.
23:32<xiong>So this squelches jcts where one route is favored over another.
23:33<xiong>Actually, I figure all jcts prefer some routes to other routes. But I don't consider this beneficial. My games don't include huge, heavy traffic mains blowing by sleepy little towns.
23:34<Rhamphoryncus>Even when they do they're not the interesting junctions :)
23:34<xiong>Rather, I have hardworking industrial stations throwing out hundreds of tons of cargo.
23:35<xiong>The heaviest traffic, even at whichever jct happens to be central to the map, often is into a nearby station.
23:35<xiong>In many cases, the "main" traffic turns a corner.
23:36<xiong>In any case, I'm just not real interested in any designs that favor through traffic over turning traffic. I figure the truly high-traffic jcts are all mains anyway.
23:36<Rhamphoryncus>Ideally with 12 trains you'd have 1 on each order and they'd be in the nearest depot
23:37<xiong>There's some randomness in my setup, in that I run the trains around awhile, then depot.
23:37<xiong>So not all the trains in a given depot are ordered to the same station at the same time.
23:38<xiong>But I haven't got it all finely tuned. Which is okay since in real play, there's never that level of sync.
23:39*Rhamphoryncus nods
23:39<xiong>Actually, I'm deeply dissatisfied with this testing framework. It's clumsy and time consuming. What I'd rather have are much more sophisticated signals and sensors.
23:39<xiong>I should be able to put a sensor at each exit branch and just run trains, say, for one game year; and see how many trains exited each branch in that year.
23:40<xiong>I mean, this is not high-tech railroading. You can put all kinds of primitive sensors on a track -- pressure, electrical, optical -- to report to tower when a train is passing a given waypoint.
23:41<xiong>Ha ha, even with 1850's tech.
23:42<xiong>If sensor output could be graphed -- ingame, ideally -- or at least output to file; then it would be very clear, very quickly, how long you needed to run in order to get a stable measurement.
23:43<Rhamphoryncus>Got an easy way to convert a date into a day number?
23:43<xiong>Oh, by the way -- since you've seen it -- this Double Star that you've been seeing shots of is completely useless.
23:44<xiong>Um, date into day?
23:44<Rhamphoryncus>october 1st to june 5th
23:44<xiong>I just autofill a selected train's timetable; the total time is given in plain days.
23:44<xiong>Otherwise I have to count on my fingers.
23:44<Rhamphoryncus>that's easier, yes :D
23:46<xiong>The timetable reports "not complete" until the run is finished: the selected train has made it from A (order 1) to A (order 1). Then I figure I'm done. I discard the game then and start over with saved initial conditions.
23:47<xiong>I'm not *certain* that retaining an old timetable might not affect the run. I think it cannot, since there are no stations in the order list.
23:47<xiong>In any case, by restarting from the same year each run, I control for various possible wackiness.
23:48<xiong>Science is hard work. You get four strong young lab assistants to hold the damn monkey and his tail grabs the syringe right out of your hand and stabs you in the neck.
23:51<xiong>Well, fun's fun and I'm glad I checked it out. I'll continue to upgrade jcts to Sunken Star, with conservative signals only (since more signals screw short trains); but I'm now completely cold on bigger jcts. The only way I can see to make them pay off is with 4-track mains.
23:52<Rhamphoryncus>4 track being LL_RR?
23:52<xiong>Note that even a simple jct carries most of the traffic that straight track carries. It only looks bad.
23:53<xiong>Well, I don't recognize your notation. But I think yes. Two track in each direction, doubling capacity of the line. With that, a bigger jct might not only pay off; it would be critical.
23:55<xiong>The fact is, a number of short, slow trains fill a line to capacity quickly, anyway. Upgrading jcts is not a big win. If I've demonstrated that much, I'm happy.
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23:56<xiong>So this leads to station design. I have experimented with long, narrow stations. The longer the trains, the greater the effective capacity of platforms, lines, and jcts.
23:57<xiong>So my current game, with a station spread of 8, will be abandoned. I have been playing for a long time with 32. I may try something like 16.
23:58<xiong>32 gives you no motivation to build feeder systems. But even in the 1800's, an 8-tile train is just too short.
23:59<xiong>The scales of this game are just all wrong. Rail vehicles -- engines and carriages -- are way too long.
---Logclosed Sun Feb 26 00:00:18 2012