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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-02-26

---Logopened Sun Feb 26 00:00:18 2012
00:00<xiong>Also, towns are much too close together.
00:00<xiong>I might be able to fix that with a sufficiently large map, dunno.
00:03<Rhamphoryncus>Yeah, but you have to have some compromise
00:04<Rhamphoryncus>ahahaha, my junction seemed great for the first few trains. Then it jammed XD
00:06<xiong>No, a bigger map doesn't help. Four times the land, four times the number of towns; they're still hard by one another.
00:06<xiong>Show me this jct, Rhamphoryncus.
00:06<Rhamphoryncus>There is a setting for that
00:07<xiong>Can I force it any lower than "Very low"?
00:07<Rhamphoryncus>nope :/
00:07<Rhamphoryncus>And.. industries aren't balanced well if they're not limited to 1 per town
00:08<xiong>Well, industries can go lower... to "Minimal" and even to "Funding Only".
00:09<Rhamphoryncus>A tweaked junction goes from 254 to 191 days. However, I only have 12 trains going.
00:09<xiong>I mean, I'm coming at this from HO. Four entire towns is a great luxury, a real big basement layout. You might well have three industries per town.
00:09<xiong>Show me this jct, Rhamphoryncus.
00:11<xiong>There's a gigantic, bilevel HO layout in San Jose. It has one central yard, a staging yard, dozens of industries... and no actual towns. There are two or three townlike areas.
00:11<Rhamphoryncus>http://i.imgur.com/MQlRW.png
00:13<xiong>"Dozens" possibly an exaggeration. But well over a dozen industry sidings. Except for the yard interlocking and some stuff around the helix and a "back of the backdrop" runaround track, there are no real serious junctions... only sidings and such.
00:13<Rhamphoryncus>With the basic junction the 12 trains were enough to be fairly congested. With this junction they're not congested.
00:14<xiong>Well, 2053! What kind of trains are those?
00:14<Rhamphoryncus>americans
00:14<xiong>Must be the "Heavy 2" variant.
00:14<xiong>Those are mail cars?
00:14<Rhamphoryncus>yes, loaded
00:15<xiong>I'd like to know what performance you get with your layout for the Sunken Star. Also, can you normalize your figures into bags per day?
00:16<xiong>You don't have a queue at each entry branch; so the assumption that total route length is irrelevant fails.
00:16<Rhamphoryncus>80 bags * 12 trains / 254 days = 3.78 bags/day?
00:16<Rhamphoryncus>They were queued with a basic junction
00:17<Rhamphoryncus>5.03 bags/day with this junction
00:17<xiong>Each train carries how many bags? 20 per car? 80 bags per train.
00:17<Rhamphoryncus>yes
00:18<xiong>You're not multiplying again by number of crossings per train, which is 12 given my order setup.
00:18<Rhamphoryncus>oops
00:18<Rhamphoryncus>45 and 60 then
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00:19<xiong>80 bags per train * 12 trains * 12 xings per train / 254 days per run = 45 bags per day
00:19<Rhamphoryncus>yup
00:19<xiong>You got that with a simple jct?
00:19<Rhamphoryncus>Yes, but these are faster trains and only 12 trains
00:20<Rhamphoryncus>Oh, and my waypoint is placed differently, so that's a slight advantage
00:20<xiong>Faster trains won't make much difference. More powerful trains, with more TE, that accelerate faster, yes.
00:20<xiong>Nope. Don't think waypoint placement affects.
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00:21<Rhamphoryncus>hrm.. yeah, you're right.
00:22<xiong>Anyway, load the jct to cap and see what you get. You improved from 45 to 60, which is significant but not huge.
00:22<xiong>Also, lengthen the trains. Short trains sail through a simple jct. I saw no real advantage to complex jct with short trains.
00:22<Rhamphoryncus>60 is close to the maximum for the track lengths
00:23<xiong>Hence the long loops. ;)
00:23<Rhamphoryncus>But yeah, working on it
00:23<xiong>http://imgur.com/f365v,8Qh7W#1
00:24<xiong>You see I've got loops sufficient to hold about ten long trains each.
00:24<xiong>Of course, if the loop fills up then the exit track is blocked. That may be realistic too, but no longer says anything exclusively about the jct under test.
00:26<xiong>I just feel it's somehow wrong to ignore towns. If they're there, they should be given some pax service at least. If not, then what's wanted is pure industrial play.
00:27<Rhamphoryncus>That's a different discussion :)
00:27<xiong>Perhaps I'll reintroduce cities. A long time ago, I set cities to none. Perhaps I'll go back to 1 in 4 and provide rail to cities only and road vehicle feeders to towns.
00:28<xiong>Yes; but I confess the obsession.
00:29<xiong>That's actually a realistic approach. Rail doesn't go everywhere; and even if it goes near a town for industry, you may not be able to ride as pax.
00:30<Rhamphoryncus>yeah
00:31<Rhamphoryncus>Or you could treat the towns as asymmetric. Full load in them, dump in the city, pick up what they feel like. The city itself gets proper city to city service for the bulk of its cargo
00:33<Rhamphoryncus>oh yeah, the reason I changed the year was to enable road depots :/
00:33<xiong>Ha. I set cities to 1 in 6, a small map (256). Got 7 towns including 2 cities... immediately adjacent. 40 tiles taxicab distance between city halls.
00:34<Rhamphoryncus>heh
00:34<xiong>???
00:34<xiong>"road depots"?
00:34<xiong>I have RV depots in 1850.
00:34<Rhamphoryncus>sorry, truck stops
00:34<Rhamphoryncus>oops. I'm not using a newgrf with old road vehicles
00:34<xiong>Did you set up a feeder service in your town, for loading.
00:35<xiong>Just set a big station spread and throw bus stops, or even 1x1 rail stations, all over town.
00:35<Rhamphoryncus>No bus stops, but yeah, big spread with 1x1 stations
00:35<xiong>I don't see how road depots comes into this.
00:36<xiong>Probably not real important!
00:36<Rhamphoryncus>I keep calling truck stops "road depots"
00:36<xiong>Yes, but you don't need truck stops.
00:36<xiong>Don't need RVs at all.
00:36<Rhamphoryncus>I have neither truck no bus
00:36<xiong>Right.
00:37<Rhamphoryncus>But I did it using train stations and explosions instead
00:37<xiong>?? You walked the stations out?
00:37<xiong>Just set a high station spread.
00:37<xiong>Hold down Ctrl to make disjoint stations.
00:37<Rhamphoryncus>I did
00:37<Rhamphoryncus>It's done
00:38<xiong>Well... irrelevant in the long term.
00:38<xiong>You could just depot all your trains, sell off the engines, cheat the time back to 1850 and buy new engines of the 1849 variation.
00:39<xiong>Actually, cheat the time and buy new engines first. Then you don't lose the orders.
00:42<Rhamphoryncus>Let's see, filling up my lines would take.. 192 trains
00:43<xiong>No no, too many.
00:43<Rhamphoryncus>yes, not doing that :)
00:43<Rhamphoryncus>48 maybe?
00:43<xiong>36 trains will likely be plenty.
00:43<Rhamphoryncus>Each line is 96 line
00:43<Rhamphoryncus>long*
00:43<xiong>I got good saturation of all tested jcts at 24 trains.
00:44<xiong>The point being, no matter how long the loop, the train still has to wait in the entry queue.
00:44<Rhamphoryncus>alright
00:44<xiong>So long as that queue is there, you're at capacity. No need to fill up the whole loop.
00:44<xiong>An average of about 2-3 trains waiting is plenty.
00:44<Rhamphoryncus>yup
00:46<xiong>At first I thought in terms of many trains. Not necessary. More trains just means a longer testing time. Since at capacity, as many trains as possible are going through the jct in unit time; more trains just wait longer to get in.
00:46<Rhamphoryncus>yeah
00:46<Rhamphoryncus>bwahaha, forgot to remove some signals and my basic junction jammed XD
00:46<xiong>That waiting time doesn't show up in the final bags per day figure because it's been normalized out. Which is good.
00:48<xiong>Okay, this time I got 12 towns, 4 of them cities. And they are reasonably distributed. *Play.*
00:48<Rhamphoryncus>:)
00:49<Rhamphoryncus>hmm, my lines are too big. Not queuing enough
00:51<xiong>How long did you make your loops? Mine are just about 64 tiles total, out and back.
00:52<xiong>You might just add more trains.
00:52<Rhamphoryncus>96 out
00:52<xiong>Well, that's a lot.
00:52<Rhamphoryncus>hehe
00:52<xiong>OTOH, you will be able to handle much longer trains that way.
00:52<Rhamphoryncus>There's no kill like overkill XD
00:53<xiong>I've set station spread to 16. I'll still run real, road vehicle feeder service to towns but the spread means I don't have to do much feeder in cities.
00:54<xiong>We'll just say a city is big enough to operate its own municipal services.
00:55<Rhamphoryncus>doubled it to 72 trains. Plenty of congestion now
00:55<Rhamphoryncus>jam XD
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00:56<Rhamphoryncus>A single spoke can only handle 48, so I'm getting more than that on one
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00:56<Rhamphoryncus>well, nearly that. It's not a complete jam
00:58<Rhamphoryncus>hmm, forgot to use path signals
01:05<Rhamphoryncus>I definitely need a better way of spreading them evenly
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01:15<xiong>Well, I'm not sure what's the trouble.
01:16<xiong>First, after loading, I let all the trains run around for an arbitrary time. Then I sent all to depot; and equalized them by restarting a few trains and letting them move around.
01:16<xiong>So at the start, some trains are "just past" the waypoint they wanted; others are not.
01:17<xiong>With 6 trains per depot, there's not a lot of opportunity for trains to overload a given loop, assuming a symmetrical jct. Of course, your jct is not symmetrical, which throws the whole scheme into a rubbish pile.
01:17<Rhamphoryncus>This is on a basic junction again, which is symmetrical
01:17<xiong>Oh?
01:18<xiong>Then I'm really stumped.
01:18<Rhamphoryncus>The issue is you manually tweaked the trains to look balanced, but I have too many trains to do that
01:18<xiong>Why too many?
01:19<xiong>Just open the depot windows, as I did in the shot; and pull them open so you can see (trains/4)+1 in each window.
01:19<xiong>Then restart the excess and run them awhile, depot all.
01:19<Rhamphoryncus>I'd have to do that repeatedly. They're clumpy. Tons on leg 8, few on leg 3.
01:19<xiong>For the last train or two, it's easiest to open its window and futz with it.
01:19<Rhamphoryncus>that kind of thing
01:20<xiong>Um, no, sorry, disagree. If you start with (total/4) trains on each loop then, in any unit of time, trains moving from one loop to another should be balanced by trains moving the other way.
01:20<Rhamphoryncus>I'll get it working though
01:20<xiong>It's musical chairs with plenty of vacant chairs, a round robbin.
01:20<Rhamphoryncus>should, weren't ;)
01:21<Rhamphoryncus>But I've now switched to your exactly order of WPs
01:21<xiong>I wouldn't think my exact order list is important. But I did try to distribute "evenly". Maybe I just got lucky with a number of factors I didn't think critical.
01:22<Rhamphoryncus>it's easier with less trains
01:22<xiong>Did you give the trains a nice warmup before depoting?
01:23<xiong>Oh, here's another point: How did you get your trains out of town?
01:23<xiong>I had them running the circuit after leaving town; and it takes time for each to load so each new train is injected into the system at wide, pseudo-random intervals.
01:24<xiong>If, at any given moment, half the trains are all trying to get to wp A, then it's unbalancing.
01:24<Rhamphoryncus>tried multiple times
01:24<Rhamphoryncus>and yes I did
01:25<xiong>Science is hard. ;)
01:25<Rhamphoryncus>hehe
01:26<xiong>This is probably why the forums and the wiki are full of BS speculation. You can't infer all behavior from reading the code and experiment is $Work.
01:26<Rhamphoryncus>hehe
01:27<Rhamphoryncus>Well, openttdcoop has a pretty strong empirical basis for their opinions. Huge network, X trains running on it, 1 spot is jamming and causing huge backlogs. Redesign section, backlog clears and network flows smoothly.
01:27<Rhamphoryncus>Of course they continue to ramp up the number of trains and add more tracks as needed.
01:28<xiong>Well, I don't argue with that kind of statement; it's anecdotal and uncontrolled but so is most experience. I just think that kind of discussion belongs to another scale of building.
01:29<xiong>Mad scientist schemes, 8 parallel tracks full of maglevs. Then they ask how to build crossovers.
01:30<xiong>I've seen stations with, dunno, 20-30 platforms.
01:30<Rhamphoryncus>umm.. around 120 I think :)
01:31<xiong>In 1850, I figure two platforms of four tiles each is... overkill.
01:31<Rhamphoryncus>hehe
01:31<xiong>I tend to build them that way since later, they do come in useful. But then, the truth is, there's almost no limit to how many platforms you might like for a maxed-out mine.
01:32<xiong>As I said, this game I'm going to a station spread of 16. I have an extremely robust long, narrow station, not fancy. Sometimes I hang a short train bag on the side.
01:33<Rhamphoryncus>A primary industry won't need that. Their production caps. However, a secondary industry where you have a multitude of primaries feeding it..
01:33<xiong>Primary FIRS cap at over 1000 tons per month.
01:34<xiong>At that point, I look to barge.
01:34<xiong>Again, totally realistically. At some point, it's cheaper by water.
01:35<xiong>Besides, on occasion, I've built stations to serve more than one industry. I'm no longer sure that's wise.
01:36<xiong>Secondaries can be tough if they produce multiple types of cargo. I feel you need one platform per cargo for a train to wait on full load; plus one per cargo for entering and leaving; plus one per cargo being dropped off.
01:37<xiong>That might be as many as 7 platforms.
01:37<Rhamphoryncus>If your goal is to maximize production then the game mechanics indicate a small, maximum speed train that feeds to a long, slow train
01:37<Rhamphoryncus>yes, you need a train waiting
01:37<xiong>Now you're talking zero-production warehouse stations.
01:38<xiong>I've done some of those. Distribution points, etc.
01:38<Rhamphoryncus>yup
01:39<xiong>But I've done those mostly to distribute rare cargo, like ES or FS. Uneconomical to run many small trains around anyway.
01:39<xiong>I see your point, though. Impress the industry with your fast train, then pull a switch.
01:40<Rhamphoryncus>yup.
01:40<xiong>"Ha ha, you thought we were going to take your crappy old Coal away by maglev. But we still got some of that old steam around...."
01:40<xiong>I have not seen any discussion of shuttles and loops, not anywhere.
01:41<xiong>I find it helps quite a bit to run even a slow vehicle around in a tight loop, "transfer and wait for any full load", or modifications of such.
01:41<xiong>Of course, this all applies to my 1850 start.
01:42<xiong>I've gotten production boosts by always transferring FIRS cargos, not unloading them; and letting a shuttle move the cargo by repeatedly loading and unloading at the same station.
01:43<xiong>If it's a train, it can be ordered only to unload when it has all 2 or 3 types of input cargo loaded.
01:43<Rhamphoryncus>Yeah, your trains aren't enough to hit the "fast" threshold anyway I don't think
01:44<xiong>Nobody seems to discuss this. I wonder if I have enough experience with some of these gimmicks to put up a wiki page on them.
01:45<Rhamphoryncus>damnit. All my fancy conditional orders break timetabling XD
01:47<Rhamphoryncus>oh well, worked around it
01:49<Rhamphoryncus>Anyway, that junction I made? The main goal is split before merge. This means that rather than having 4 lines combine to a single point, which may handle 2 on average, you expand them out to 12 before reducing down to 4
01:50<Rhamphoryncus>Ahh, results are in. 39 bags/day with the basic, heh
02:00<Rhamphoryncus>69 bags/day :D
02:00<xiong>Well, that's great.
02:01<xiong>Sunken Star is also split before merge. But not with enough room to store trains of any length.
02:01<Rhamphoryncus>Yeah, storing a train is a key feature
02:01<xiong>I was concerned about land use. It fits in a 9x9 square.
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02:02<xiong>I add depots on the entry branches, which helps to even things out.
02:02<Rhamphoryncus>Oh, I did tweak the inner roundabout to store a 2 tile train within without blocking
02:03<xiong>I don't see how openttdcoop guys even play with a huge map crammed with towns and industries. I have to think, a lot of stuff goes unserviced.
02:03<Rhamphoryncus>Towns are usually ignored but industries are near 100%
02:04<xiong>My basic goal is just to link up the entire industry chain and provide service to all towns. Haven't made it yet... I've aborted every game due to discovery of a serious misconception.
02:04<Rhamphoryncus>oh, and I should say one more thing: this junction still isn't congested
02:05<Rhamphoryncus>with 60 trains
02:05<Rhamphoryncus>probably 50% more is the critical point
02:07<Rhamphoryncus>Well, maybe not.
02:07<Rhamphoryncus>still, around double that of a basic junction
02:09<Rhamphoryncus>The inner roundabout could of course be replaced with a proper split-before-merge, which'd increase capacity a bit
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02:36<@planetmaker>moin
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03:05<@Alberth>moin
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03:23<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23993 /trunk/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Cleanup: remove some disable directives from the NFO as they aren't needed anymore with newer GRFCodec/NFORenum
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04:36<@Terkhen>good morning
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05:00<Eddi|zuHause>when does the voting round end?
05:01<Rubidium>when february ends
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05:02<Eddi|zuHause>oh, on my brother's birthday then :p
05:03<Eddi|zuHause>they all start to look somewhat empty on the higher resolutions...
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05:06<Rhamphoryncus>I chose the most empty of all :D
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05:44<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: again nobody submitted the trunk version of the intro game ;)
05:47<@Alberth>testing how many years it takes before someone does? ;)
05:49<Rubidium>AFAIR each time someone wants to vote for the original intro game in the last round
05:58<Eddi|zuHause>hm... email links are broken...
05:58<Eddi|zuHause>must be something local...
06:04<@planetmaker>votes so far seem pretty stable in the titlegame competition
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06:06<LordAro>mornings
06:06<@planetmaker>hi LordAro
06:07<appe>hm
06:07<appe>im no genious, and i wish to make my frst grf.
06:08<@planetmaker>omg!
06:08*Rubidium then votes for i∊ℑ, e and π ;)
06:09<appe>i wish to make a change to the original industries, making it possible to stimulate the production by adding passengers to it.
06:09<LordAro>planetmaker: when does title game voting end?
06:09<@planetmaker>end of month for 1st round
06:09<LordAro>k
06:10<@planetmaker>2nd round will last one or two weeks following that
06:10*appe starts by ruining all the code he can find.
06:11<@Terkhen>appe: I suggest reading http://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NMLTutorial and checking the following source http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/ogfx-industries
06:11<appe>ah, i see.
06:11<appe>thank you
06:11<LordAro>appe: the best way of learning to code, imo :)
06:12<appe>LordAro: well, at the moment, im trying to learn both C#, VB, html and lots and lots of logic, all connected to work.
06:12<appe>this cant really hurt.
06:12<appe>:p
06:12<@Terkhen>in case you find something strange, mind that most of the code you will find in the devzone uses preprocessing (CPP) :)
06:13<appe>how does CPP work?
06:14<LordAro>Terkhen: surely it's most C preprocessing?
06:14<appe>thing is, i have yet to discover the basic concepts of code in general
06:14<@Terkhen>yes, I meant C PreProcessing
06:15<@Terkhen>appe: #include file, #define macro
06:15<@Terkhen>like in C/C++
06:19<appe>oh ..eh, oh!
06:19*appe think he gets it.
06:20<appe>jesus christ, im on a laptop > wifi > mobile phone > 3g > internet
06:20<appe><0.5kbps
06:20<appe>in the middle of nowhere
06:21<appe>my ssh connection dies when birds fly by
06:24<@planetmaker>you should switch to TCP/IP protocol for your connection. It's unharmed by most birds flying by. It actually might profit from it...
06:24<@planetmaker>http://ropata.wordpress.com/2005/06/18/tcpip-traditional-carrier-pigeon-internet-protocol/
06:24<appe>hehe, if that was possible, of course.
06:25<@Alberth>but you won't make 0.5 KBps :)
06:25<@planetmaker>Alberth, why not? Give them SD cards to carry ;-)
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06:25<@Alberth>good thinking :)
06:26<Arafangion>There's an RFC for that.
06:26*Alberth ponders about density of a truckload of SD cards versus a truckload of tapes
06:26<@planetmaker>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IP_over_Avian_Carriers
06:27<Arafangion>Alberth: That's a tough one... But the tapes would be absurdely cheap.
06:27<@Alberth>yeah, that makes it more economically feasible :)
06:29<Eddi|zuHause>mind the date :p
06:30<@planetmaker>that's irrelevant :-P
06:30<appe>although, we swedes have more then enough of adequate broadband connections, you cant help to grin at the fact that i have to turn my phone sideways once every five minutes to keep the connection.
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06:31<Arafangion>Curious.
06:31<@Alberth>a smart phone :)
06:31<Arafangion>appe: I'm drinking apple cider from sweden. :)
06:32<Rhamphoryncus>use ordinary desktop harddrives. Tapes are not as cheap as you would think.
06:32<Arafangion>Rhamphoryncus: Only the data density was mentioned... But yes... The hardware to read and write them are getting expensive as feck.
06:33<Rhamphoryncus>I mean the tapes themselves, not even the tape drive
06:33<Eddi|zuHause>bind one end of a cable to the bird, once he arrives you have a proper connection :p
06:33<Rhamphoryncus>I did a price comparison a couple years ago. Best option was a couple harddrives in rotation
06:34<Arafangion>Rhamphoryncus: But a *full truck*?
06:34<Rhamphoryncus>Of course that's poor if archiving is your problem
06:34<Rhamphoryncus>Arafangion: hard to say what bulk prices you could get. You'd have to contact the manufacturers for a quote.
06:34<@Alberth>you need a power plant right next door then :)
06:35<Arafangion>Rhamphoryncus: I'm sure they could come to an agreement for per-truck orders.
06:35<@Alberth>you'd influence the world economy with such an order, I think :)
06:36<Arafangion>For tapes? Certainly.
06:36<appe>hm, let's see
06:36<appe>im trying tethering now
06:36<appe>that'is; laptop > usb > phone > 3g
06:36<appe>seems to be a bit more stable
06:37<appe>how long is a normal wave in the 2,4GHz 802.11b/g wifi?
06:37<appe>it seems that when the phone gets to close to the laptop (about 20cm) it completely looses ability to find it.
06:38<@planetmaker>12 cm
06:38<@planetmaker>and near field is... usually a few wavelength where the characteristics are quite different
06:40<Rhamphoryncus>So far the numbers I've fond on pricewatch at least twice as much for tapes. Probably more.
06:40<Rhamphoryncus>It's hard to tell since there's so many different kinds
06:40<appe>ah, i thought <1 would equal problems
06:40<Eddi|zuHause>appe: lambda = c/f
06:40<Arafangion>Rhamphoryncus: Usually tapes are part of a contract.
06:41*Arafangion doesn't see the point of tapes in this day and age.
06:41<Rhamphoryncus>Arafangion: yeah, they're a very old technology barely used by anybody except big businesses that are slow to move on :P
06:42<Arafangion>Rhamphoryncus: It's not usually teh business that's slow to move on... It's the people operating them and their managers!
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06:42<Rhamphoryncus>same diff :)
06:42<Arafangion>Heh.
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06:44<appe>planetmaker: that would mean that a meter or two would be sufficient to eliminate all of those problems, i guess.
06:44<Arafangion>appe: How long does the USB specification last for?
06:44<appe>and i also guess thats why the htc guide recommends me to use tethering as much as possible.
06:44<appe>Arafangion: how ..long?
06:44<Arafangion>appe: That's conductive, too, which would impact on that distance.
06:44<Arafangion>appe: As for me, when I do tethering, I don't use USB, but 'portable hotspot'.
06:45<Arafangion>appe: Yes... How long can the USB cable go for?
06:45<appe>the usb cable is a meter.
06:45<appe>i used it as a portable hotspot (wifi > phone > 3g)
06:46<appe>but i now note a huge improvement in stability with tethering (usb > phone > 3g)
06:46<Arafangion>That would work well for me, in good areas, at least.
06:46<Arafangion>appe: Interesting.
06:46<appe>and i guess that is because i was to close to my phone, or the wlan was lacking.
06:46<appe>the hotspot usually works great
06:46<appe>but not around here, for some reason
06:46<appe>im very close to a huge radio source
06:47<Arafangion>Probably doesn't help.
06:47<appe>150 meters to the 324 meter tv tower in nassjo, little county.
06:47<appe>its obama controlling my brain, man
06:47*appe runs for the foil hat
06:49*Arafangion considers drinking a second apple cider.
06:50<appe>Arafangion: what kind?
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06:54<Arafangion>appe: The name seems to be: +46
06:54<Arafangion>There's another, smaller name, "Herrljunga", though.
06:55<appe>ah, herrljunga it is, yes ;)
06:55<appe>+46 is the country phone code.
06:55<appe>herrljunga-cider in sweden is like root beer in america
07:00<Rhamphoryncus>appe: if obama was controlling your brain you wouldn't know about it. Clearly this is obama trying and *failing* to control your brain. lrn2conspiracy!
07:07<appe>:D
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07:09<Rhamphoryncus>I'm an expert. That's why I don't sleep. They can't get me if I don't sleep.
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07:13<@Alberth>that's what they want you to think. if you are tired, you make mistakes without realizing it
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07:19<Rhamphoryncus>How do I know you're not one of them?
07:26<@Alberth>you don't
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07:37<Chris_Booth>beer
07:39<LordAro>why is it that the selectors (http://jupix.info/openttd/gfxdev-repo/index.php?act=file&id=44) would need mask sprites?
07:39<LordAro>(if anybody knows :) )
07:40<Arafangion>appe: I was wondering why the heck it was +46! That clears it up a lot!
07:40<Arafangion>It was honestly driving me nuts.
07:42<appe>:D
07:42<appe>where did you see that?
07:42<appe>that should be located around a barcode or something.
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07:44<Yexo>LordAro: those are recolored by openttd to red/blue for error/station coverage selectors
07:44<Yexo>and recoloring means they need to use specific colors from the palette -> mask file needed
07:45<LordAro>that makes sense
07:45<LordAro>and also explains why it didn't seem to be recoloured :) - mask psirtes appear to be broken
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07:48<Rhamphoryncus>oi. I have screenshops open in my browser and I keep trying to hit x to toggle transparency, right-click to drag the map, zoom in and out, etc
07:49<LordAro>i have a tendancy to try to do that in the screenshots forum :)
07:49<Rhamphoryncus>or hit e and drag the count the tiles
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08:04<Rhamphoryncus>hah. And I just tried to scroll down using my scroll wheel in openttd
08:08<@planetmaker>and it zoomed?
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08:11<Rhamphoryncus>yup
08:11*appe zooms in on Mark
08:12<Rhamphoryncus>xiong: if you're still around I've noticed my junction is a http://wiki.openttd.org/High_Speed_4-way (with some inconsequential changes
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08:20<Arafangion>appe: The +46 is about an inch high on the label.
08:20<Arafangion>appe: About 3cm, wehreas "HERRLJUNGA" is about 8mm.
08:20<appe>:O
08:20<appe>i see
08:21<Arafangion>appe: It's about 4 times the size of the barcode.
08:21<appe>http://www.systembolaget.se/ImageVaultFiles/id_11585/cf_399/342290.JPG
08:21<appe>ah yes
08:21<appe>where did you say you live?
08:21<Arafangion>Australia.
08:21<appe>dafuq, herrljunga in australia? :D
08:21<appe>neat!
08:21<Arafangion>Here, I can easily get the apple cider, which is delicious, and the pear cider, which I have yet to try.
08:22<Arafangion>As bottles.
08:22<appe>ah, i see
08:22<Elukka>CREATED IN THE KINGDOM OF SWEDEN
08:22<Elukka>how grandiose
08:22<Mark>appe: Amenduråå
08:22<appe>Mark: omändurå.
08:22<__ln__>not the republic of sweden, no.
08:22<appe>Mark: dom har herrljunga i australien.
08:22<appe>Mark: that's a bit cool-ish.
08:23<Mark>Das Köningreich Schweden.
08:23<appe>:D
08:23<appe>Mark: im still waiting for new products called "estelle".
08:23<appe>;)
08:23<Mark>appe: Yeah, thy have Kopperbergs in Ireland and Germany.
08:24<appe>neat
08:24<appe>its like that time i found kalles kaviar in the halal section on tesco in london.
08:24<Mark>:D
08:24<appe>a tad bit wierd
08:29<Elukka>our media wouldn't goddamn shut up about your princess for the past few days
08:29<Elukka>IS HER NAME GOOD
08:29<Elukka>IS HER NAME BAD
08:30<appe>its the same around here
08:30<appe>for my part, its a name.
08:30<appe>enough of it. :)
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08:43<MNIM>meh, ours won't shut the fuck up about our prince. :/
08:43<MNIM>well, one of ours, at least.
08:44<alluke>which prince
08:45<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think it's the prince of bel air :p
08:45<alluke>so funny i forgot to laugh
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08:48<Eddi|zuHause>anyway some dutch prince was skiing off the main ramps and got into an avalanche a few weeks ago, and now he's in some sort of coma
08:51<@Alberth>MNIM: you didn't think the news was about anything important happening in the world, did you?
08:51<MNIM>you'd almost think so, eh.
08:52<MNIM>anyway, one of our princes decided to race against an avalanche in Lech.
08:52<MNIM>...The avalanche won.
08:52<MNIM>So he's now comatose, and quite probably terminally so.
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08:55<fuchs82>Hi, kann mir jemand mit den Sound Daten helfen? Bisher hab ich einfach den gm Ordner kopiert, aber das funktioniert anscheinend in der 1.2er nichtmehr :-(
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09:02<+glx>@topic get -1
09:02<@DorpsGek>glx: English only
09:03<fuchs82>where do i place my sound files from the gm folder? in v1.2 simply copying the folder does not work..
09:06<@Alberth>I think the folder got a new name in 1.2, the readme file should explain where to copy the data to
09:08<@planetmaker>baseset
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09:09<@Alberth>efenink andythenorth
09:09<andythenorth>hola
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09:11*andythenorth ponders
09:11<andythenorth>capacity multipliers
09:13<fuchs82>yep i read the readme and copied to baseset but it did not work. still got the open sounds
09:15<@Alberth>did you change the setting in 'game options' too?
09:16*Alberth multiplies andy by 2
09:16<fuchs82>I only have the 'Open..X' option or 'no sound'
09:18<andythenorth>twice as many questions
09:18<andythenorth>twice as much complaining
09:18<andythenorth>same amount of productivity :P
09:18<fuchs82>ok, i now copied the whole gm folder, not only the content. now the sounds are working but not the music :-P
09:21<+michi_cc>You might have to hit play in the music player window (only accessible in-game).
09:22<Yexo->Hirundo: any luck on 32bpp sprites for nml?
09:23*Alberth splits andy in two, and assigns a different project to the 2nd andy
09:24<andythenorth>split three
09:24<andythenorth>assign one to childcare, the other to building lego
09:24<andythenorth>the third writes code
09:25<@Alberth>I thought your chldren could build lego for you :p
09:25<andythenorth>not yet
09:25<andythenorth>they are better at unbuilding it
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09:27<fuchs82>in game i only got the OpenMSX Sounds :-/
09:29<fuchs82>i mean music
09:30<@planetmaker>of course you got to switch base music in the options. Copying alone doesn't suffice, of course
09:30<+glx>you can't switch music pack in game, only in main menu
09:31<@Alberth>I think you should run openttd with option -d9 to get a dump of what stuff gets seen and loaded, but assuming you run Windows, I don't have a clue how to do that
09:32<@planetmaker>-d9 will give you a big shitload of output. Using -d grf=3 should suffice
09:32<Hirundo>Yexo-: working on it atm
09:32<@planetmaker>hm... maybe not grf.
09:33<@Alberth>some misc and some grf
09:33<Hirundo>Yexo-: Params for alternative_sprites become (name, zoom, bitdepth [, image]) ?
09:33-!-Yexo- is now known as Yexo
09:33<Hirundo>or bitdepth optional (with what default?)
09:33<Yexo>bitdepth not optional imo
09:34<fuchs82>in the options there is no original_windows for music
09:34<Hirundo>Is bitdepth just a number (8/32) or a named constant?
09:34<Yexo>named constant (or directly comparing an identifier) is best I think
09:35<fuchs82>are the original music and sounds combined in the *.gm files?
09:35<@planetmaker>yes, bitdepth sould be compulsory, I guess, for the alternative_sprites
09:35<+glx>and the obm is at the right place ?
09:35<@planetmaker>that should be shipped with openttd, glx
09:36<fuchs82>yep, in the original files i cannot find any obm
09:37<fuchs82>there are some obg files though
09:37<+glx>obm should be in installdir/baseset
09:37<fuchs82>yes
09:38<Yexo>Hirundo: not sure how much time you have for it, but perhaps code it in two parts? First change the parser to allow the new syntax without writing any new output, this will allow projects to start using the syntax
09:38<@planetmaker>there are known to be broken gm files floating around. iirc
09:38<@planetmaker>like the re-composed ones with "better" music
09:38<Yexo>actually writing the output can then get a somewhat lower priority
09:38<fuchs82>they worked fine with old versions of openttd
09:39<@planetmaker>then it's only an issue of having them in the proper dir
09:39<fuchs82>ok. i have all gm file in OpenTTD\baseset\gm
09:39<fuchs82>the sounds are working, but not the original music
09:39<Yexo>sounds are in sample.cat, not in the gm files
09:39<+glx>hmm try in baseset without gm
09:40<@planetmaker>remove the gm :-) (though it probably works with the dir)
09:40<@planetmaker>*should work
09:40<fuchs82>will try..
09:40<fuchs82>doesn't work either
09:42<Hirundo>Yexo: I'll indeed commit soon, patch stack size is already 10+
09:43<Yexo>perfect :)
09:43<Hirundo>though it contains mainly refactorings, some added regression tests
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10:09<appe>guys, i know most of you have good ideas of this
10:10<appe>are my assumptions correct when i note that the hilberts hotel-paradox requires me to count for two different infinities; infinity and infinity+n?
10:11<appe>or as the experiment states: n = infinity+n
10:12<@planetmaker>there's only two kind of infinity: countable and uncountable
10:12<@planetmaker>thus infinity = infinity + x
10:14<@planetmaker>though... the equal sign is of dubious validity
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10:16<frosch123>there are uncountable many kinds of uncountable infinity though :p
10:17<@planetmaker>are the "number" of countable infinites countable?
10:17<frosch123>yes, 1
10:17<frosch123>countable is countable
10:17<frosch123>but there are uncountable infinities which are more than other uncountable infinities
10:32<+michi_cc>That's not really the same as meant by the algebraic ∞ though, as the aleph numbers only make sense inside set theory.
10:33<frosch123>appe was talking about set theory though :)
10:34<+michi_cc>Yes, but most people generally don't :)
10:35<frosch123>yeah, they just use zorn's lemma intuitively </sarcasm> :)
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10:46<frosch123>michi_cc: but even the ∞ has different meanings for natural numbers, real numbers and complex numbers
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12:16<Eddi|zuHause>my intuition was that the aleph-numbers are countable... am i wrong?
12:16<Eddi|zuHause>just the people weren't sure whether there are more kinds of infinity inbetween the aleph-numbers
12:17<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, hilbert's hotel talks about countable infinity only
12:19<frosch123>i only guessed about the countability of alephs. and decided that they just cannot be countable :)
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12:21<frosch123>ok, wiki says the aleph index is an ordinal number. so uncountable
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12:26<Xrufuian>Why does OpenTTD, when using the Win32API, specifically use MIDI device 0? (Which is always Microsoft's [horrid] synth.)
12:28<Xrufuian>Dispite my default being MIDI device 3, OpenTTD still uses the MS synth. A bit of a waste of the time I spent configuring my sound card.
12:29<Eddi|zuHause>Xrufuian: so where's your patch?
12:29<@Yexo>Xrufuian: no idea why it works that way, it probably is some default
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12:31<@Yexo>Xrufuian: to be exact openttd will pick the first one who has the MIDICAPS_VOLUME flag set in dwSupport
12:32<Xrufuian>Well, that would seem to explain it. Thanks.
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12:57<andythenorth>hmm
12:57<andythenorth>just can't get my head into coding mood
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13:07<Rhamphoryncus>andythenorth: yeah, I haven't done any today either
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13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r23994 /trunk/src/lang/ (17 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: belarusian - 2 changes by Wowanxm
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: danish - 69 changes by mgarde
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: english_US - 1 changes by Rubidium
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: estonian - 8 changes by taavi
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: finnish - 9 changes by jpx_
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13:58<null0010>how on earth do signals work?
13:58<null0010>they confuse me
13:58<null0010>i have two parallel tracks and i want each one to be a one-way-only track
13:59<null0010>but i can't figure out how to signal it for that, they way i tried it must be wrong because the trains get lost
14:00<null0010>i'm using junctions that look exactly like this because they are simple and small: http://wiki.openttd.org/Basic_3-Way
14:01<null0010>and in my trial case, the branch leads to a station
14:01<null0010>and i want the top track to go left and the bottom track to go right
14:02<null0010>but the way i have it signalled, the train reports it is lost and it gets on the top track going right
14:02<null0010>in violation of the signals
14:02<null0010>(i assume)
14:02<null0010>it's entirely possible i am signalling it wrong
14:03<null0010>completely wrong
14:03<null0010>heh
14:04<frosch123>if it says "train is lost", then you signalled it wrong :)
14:04<null0010>i figured
14:05<+michi_cc>Make a screenshot so we can see
14:05<frosch123>some signal is facing the wrong direction and there is no way to the destination of the train
14:05<null0010>mmm, okay
14:05<null0010>i closed the game out of frustration, hah
14:05<null0010>gimme a minute to rebuild it
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14:18<null0010>well okay i rebuilt it and it works alright this time
14:18<null0010>but i'm going to post the screenshot anyways, in case there's a better way to signal this
14:19<null0010>http://i41.tinypic.com/2itpjy9.png
14:20<null0010>each station is laid out exactly the same
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14:22<null0010>i know there are layouts on the wiki that are supposed to be better but i'm trying to keep it simple for the purpose of learning what the heck i'm doing re: signals
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14:23<Nat_aS>here we go
14:24<null0010>hm?
14:24<Nat_aS>trouble getting on
14:24<null0010>ah
14:24<Nat_aS>now to idle forever
14:24<null0010>hooray!
14:24<Nat_aS>while i write my paper
14:24<null0010>want to look at a screenshot of newbie signals and tell me how dumb i am first?
14:24<Nat_aS>oh i might be worse but shoot
14:25<null0010>http://i41.tinypic.com/2itpjy9.png
14:25<Nat_aS>i only ever use path signals
14:25<Elukka>yeah go with path signals
14:25<Nat_aS>that's not TOO bad
14:26<Elukka>you can learn the other types later on if you really need to
14:26<null0010>i'm only using one-way-path and path
14:26<Elukka>oh
14:26<Elukka>good
14:26<Elukka>oh, one thing
14:26<null0010>the others i thought sounded too complicated
14:26<null0010>trees of presignals and so forth
14:26<Elukka>you don't really need them
14:26<Elukka>the one rule with path signals is only put them where a train can safely (ie not blocking anything) wait
14:26<null0010>won't i get crashes and explosions without them?
14:27<Elukka>no
14:27<Nat_aS>but yeah switch to path signals and you can also make that more compact
14:27<Nat_aS>your blocks only have to be as long as your longest train
14:27<Elukka>put them right before junctions, but as many tiles away from them as your longest train
14:27<Elukka>path signals i mean
14:27<null0010>hm, okay
14:27<Nat_aS>I'll show you my layouts in a bit
14:27<Elukka>i am explaining this badly
14:27<Nat_aS>in a few hours
14:27<null0010>signals are complicated :|
14:27<Elukka>path signals aren't :D
14:27<Elukka>that's the only placement rule they have
14:28<Elukka>basically
14:28<null0010>so if my longest train is 5 blocks long i should place a path signal 5 blocks away from the junction?
14:28<Elukka>yeah
14:28<null0010>oh
14:28<Elukka>put them where your trains can safely wait
14:28<null0010>i was just dragging a line of one-way signals all the way down the line
14:28<Nat_aS>I normaly use 4 tile long trains UNLESS the route is carrying wood in jungle maps
14:28<Nat_aS>because wood trains are fucking long
14:28<Nat_aS>6+
14:28<Elukka>'unsafe' doesn't mean there'll be fire and explosions just there might be trouble later on
14:28<Nat_aS>depending on how far away it is
14:29<null0010>so the trains knew that the whole track was one-way and they can't just magically turn around on something
14:29<Nat_aS>lots of money but DAMN
14:29<Nat_aS>those are some big trains
14:29<null0010>heh
14:29<Nat_aS>also, lategame express trains can be pretty long
14:29<Elukka>yeah what i do is autoplace signals and then manually do them around juncitons and stations
14:29<Nat_aS>because of how many passengers large cities can get if they build around your stations.
14:29<@planetmaker>null0010, maybe it's an idea to join a non-competitive multiplayer server and also look there how other people build?
14:29<null0010>what is autoplace?
14:30<null0010>just dragging signals along a path?
14:30<Elukka>yeah
14:30<Nat_aS>IRL frieght trains are the biggest, but in OTTD it's the other way around.
14:30<null0010>ok
14:30<Elukka>if you hold control it'll place them until then next junction
14:30<Elukka>so you don't actually have to drag all the way
14:30<null0010>oh cool
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14:31<Nat_aS>hmm, upon exiting the station your trains don't seem to have any signals stoping them
14:31<Nat_aS>so they can just go and crash into another train
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14:31<null0010>oh that's nice
14:31<null0010>hah
14:31<Nat_aS>BUT, upon visiting the depot they re sorted into two directions
14:31<Nat_aS>which makes no sense
14:31<null0010>yeah i just dragged path signals around
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14:31<Nat_aS>You MAY have made me want to pause writing my paper and show you how I do things
14:32<null0010>heh
14:32<null0010>is the general idea of having two parallel one-way tracks a decent one?
14:33<null0010>also, is there any reason, beyond being silly, to build a transport network using only trucks?
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14:39<null0010><Nat_aS> hmm, upon exiting the station your trains don't seem to have any signals stoping them
14:39<null0010>how do i fix that?
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14:55<+michi_cc>null0010: You should switch the signals on one of the tracks to each station around, otherwise you might get a gridlock if two trains want to enter a station that is already full.
14:56<null0010>switch them how, exactly?
14:57<+michi_cc>In the other direction, just like on your mainline.
14:57<Nat_aS>http://dl.dropbox.com/u/24299180/OTTD/Black%20%26%20Co.%2C%207th%20Aug%201951.png
14:57<Nat_aS>here
14:57<null0010>the signals on the branches leading to the station are the two-way path signals
14:57<Nat_aS>Some people might say this is bad, and I have had crashes, but they were usualy because of mistakes on my part
14:57<null0010>that's incredibly complicated and scary
14:57<Nat_aS>this system seems sound
14:57<Nat_aS>and it's less scary than most of the other examples I have seen
14:57<Nat_aS>it just has a ton of platforms
14:58<Nat_aS>the overall concept is really simple
14:58<Nat_aS>and it scales
14:58<null0010>but why would i ever need so many platforms?
14:58-!-fuchs82 [~fuchs82@e181062234.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit []
14:58<Nat_aS>factories reveving resources from many industries at once
14:58<Nat_aS>Factories and food processing plants can take in a lot, and produce resources
14:59<+michi_cc>null0010: That won't matter at all if all station platforms are occupied with trains that want to leave to the main line while two more trains are waiting on each track to enter the station.
14:59<Nat_aS>if you are frightened by the omega station, just focus on Alpha and beta
14:59<null0010>lol
14:59<Nat_aS>alpha beta and delta
15:00<Nat_aS>delta can be shrunk actualy
15:00<Nat_aS>remove the two outer platforms
15:00<Nat_aS>the important thing about these stations is they can be scaled
15:00<Nat_aS>but you need as many platforms as you have trains that might want to stop at or pass thorugh the station at once
15:00<Nat_aS>the gaps are to allow trains to pass through the station even if all the platforms are full
15:01<Nat_aS>if you set trains to wait for full load that becomes a problem
15:01<null0010>well, since i'm just starting out and playing small right now i think two platforms are probably enough D:
15:01<Nat_aS>yeah, so stick to alpha
15:01<Nat_aS>that looks like what you were trying to do with your layout
15:02<null0010>yeah i just want something basic to learn signals with, haha
15:03<Nat_aS>in fact, I can garintee that alpha stations are flawless for light traffic, but i offer no waranty on Omega stations
15:03<Nat_aS>I am not entirely sure if they are a good idea or not.
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15:03<Nat_aS>notice what all the stations have in common though
15:04<Nat_aS>on the outside are one way path signals facing the direction of traffic, on the inside are two way path signals facing inwards twards the platform
15:05<Nat_aS>and there is a turnaround gap with escape depots between the two sets of signals
15:05<null0010>yeah
15:05<Nat_aS>this allows trains to turn around, and maintain
15:06<Nat_aS>you can tell trains to maintain at nearest depot in the order list, I tell them to maintain at nearest depot if needed after every station
15:06<Nat_aS>the escape depots also allow you to unjam things if they get stuck
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15:07<null0010>rofl
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15:08<null0010>i put 6 trains on the same network as in the screencap just to see what happened
15:08<null0010>they we going alright for a little bit
15:08<null0010>but now they're all just waiting for a free path
15:08<xiong>Now I've seen many suggestions to depot after stations. I allow depots *before* station stops. Why?
15:09<null0010>i've been putting the depot after the station honestly because i thought it looked better
15:09<Nat_aS>... oh i never thought of that
15:09<Nat_aS>but it makes sense
15:09<Nat_aS>the train will wait in the depot untill a platform is ready
15:09<xiong>Unless you expressly order depoting, either conditionally or unconditionally, trains will decide to depot when their time comes. If they decide to depot when near a station and the depot is on the far side then they will skip the station, depot, and then want to return to the station they skipped; it's still next in the order list.
15:09*Nat_aS tries to figure out how to implement this powerfull concept.
15:10<Nat_aS>i think I'd have to have waypoints for that thought
15:10<Nat_aS>because "Nearest depot" after vising a station would be the depot after the station they just visited.
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15:11<xiong>Depending on your station geometry, returning can be easy or difficult. In some cases, the train will backup along rail in the direction opposite to that intended. In others, it will go way out on the main until it finds a way to turn around .
15:11<xiong>Ah. But if the depot is available just before the station, then the train depots if needed, then stops. No confusion.
15:11<Nat_aS>i find in my stations they can make a nice U turn in the depot row.
15:12<xiong>Right. And that leads to forced depoting before stations, which is my personal preference.
15:12<Nat_aS>back to work, Gah
15:13<xiong>I don't like to order depoting; it's an extra effort. And anyway, depoting only costs time, not money. Meanwhile, my trains usually need to head back where they came from anyway; I tend to run A-B and back, not big loops and through stations. So, forced depot first, which also reverses general direction; then station stop.
15:14<@planetmaker>then use a trainset which supports refit in stations ;-)
15:14<xiong>Caution: If you do not order any depoting then the vehicle will depot as needed according to its set maint interval. But if you have any depot order anywhere in schedule, that's the only depoting it will ever get; maint interval is ignored.
15:14<Nat_aS>will refiting distroy existing cargo?
15:15<Nat_aS>if not that's a clever trick.
15:15<@planetmaker>of course it will unload cargo
15:15<Nat_aS>and cargo unloaded in depots is distroyed?
15:15<@planetmaker>yup
15:15<xiong>I haven't found refit-on-the-fly useful. I've tried it.
15:15<xiong>Playing style, I guess.
15:15<Nat_aS>so stop, unload, refit, load
15:15<Nat_aS>it can help in some cases
15:16*andythenorth wonders how to do a nocall in python
15:16<Nat_aS>if there is a factory at both ends for instance
15:16<Nat_aS>otherwise don't
15:16<xiong>Dunno. If it's pax, well, no need to refit. If it's freight, I don't usually find the magnitude of the cargo compatible.
15:16<xiong>Big long slow heavy train from Iron Mine. What does it want to take back?
15:17<Nat_aS>well consider the diffrence between that and two trains which will cost more money and strain your network
15:17<xiong>The only thing that goes back to the mine is ES. For that, I want a short, light, fast train.
15:17<Nat_aS>although most trainsets don't let ore cars refit to anything :V
15:17<Nat_aS>yeah then don't
15:18<Nat_aS>but if you have a factory and food plant in the same town on opisate sides
15:18<xiong>Well, as I said, I still haven't found the utility.
15:18<Nat_aS>and the stations feeding both are big enough to accept food and goods
15:18<@planetmaker>try OpenGFX+ Trains. It's pretty liberal in which refits are allowed
15:18<@planetmaker></shameless plug>
15:18<Nat_aS>make a train that goes between them refitting to food and goods
15:19<xiong>Now, I've done refits with ships. Sometimes a critical industry is on an island.
15:19<Nat_aS>taking food from the plant to the factory then refiting to goods and taking goods to the plant from the factory
15:19<Nat_aS>that way you have a freight train that makes money both ways like an express train.
15:20<Nat_aS>and is cheaper and lower profile than two trains.
15:20<xiong>Oh yes, Nat_aS; I understand the rationale. I did try it, several times. I just have been able to make it work only very rarely.
15:20<Nat_aS>yeah it's circumstantial.
15:21<xiong>I find it a disadvantage, in general, to couple capacity of two different cargos.
15:22<xiong>Say I've coupled cargos c and d, going back and forth from stations A and B. Now I see an excess of c so I increase capacity. But there is insufficient d for the increase. You can say So What? but I might have another town E that could use d... if I had left any surplus.
15:23<xiong>Um, in most cases, I'm more or less obsessed with ES and FS, which tend to be in short supply early on and develop weird surpluses and shortages later.
15:23<Nat_aS>ES FS?
15:24<xiong>Engineering Supplies, Farm Supplies.
15:25<xiong>I often run mixed ES/FS trains, since the quantity is so low early on. Then I build up a surplus of one or the other and while I'd like to compensate by reducing one capacity or increasing the other; I can't do this by simply adding or removing trains. I have to mess with each train's consist.
15:25<xiong>And that's just A-B, without any refit.
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15:28<Nat_aS>I tend to mix cargos early on and then move to dedicated trains later.
15:29<Nat_aS>passengers and FS untill the demand is big enough to warrant actual express trains.
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15:33*andythenorth has no idea what to do with FS
15:33<xiong>Okay, now I'm puzzled. Why particularly FS?
15:33<andythenorth>I end up with huge undelivered piles of them
15:34<xiong>Depends on your era, andythenorth.
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15:35<xiong>I start in 1850; so the (current) FIRS chain is iron and wood to Iron Works; metal to Smithy Forge; and ES/FS back to mine and forest.
15:35<xiong>No other process supports production.
15:36<Nat_aS>WHAT?
15:36<Nat_aS>1800s Newgrif where?
15:36*Nat_aS demands 1800s trainset
15:37<xiong>At least, nothing that isn't quite complex. For instance, I can send wood to Sawmill, coal to Lime Kiln; from there, FS back to the forest; and chem from the kiln plus lumber to a Lumber Yard, which sends ES back to the mine. But that's pretty complex for an early layout.
15:37<xiong>Um, sorry, I'm no longer sure what particular NewGrfs do what. I assembled a set of them for 1850 play and stick with them without much change. I can tell you the ones I think contribute.
15:38<xiong>I think I get all the trains from NARS.
15:38<Nat_aS>I know the HEQ set has horsedrawn carriages
15:38<xiong>I run FIRS and TTRS.
15:39<Nat_aS>so north american set has trains from the cowboy erra?
15:39<andythenorth>horsedrawn is eGRVTS
15:39<Nat_aS>it would be intresting if there were newgrif disasters for cowboys and Indians.
15:39<andythenorth>not HEQS
15:39<Nat_aS>hmm?
15:40<xiong>HEQS, eGRVTS, Sailing Ships, FISH, AV8; ISR and a whole basket of other station sets.
15:41<xiong>Sailing Ships starts in 1700.
15:42<Nat_aS>how is that even playable?
15:42<Nat_aS>must be slow as hell
15:43<xiong>Well, I've never done it yet. I start in 1850. The American 4-4-0 comes in, in 1849; it's the first reasonably useful intercity engine.
15:43<Nat_aS>probably need a mod to make veichiles not have running cost while waiting to load, or else feeder lines would be useless.
15:44<xiong>Historically, the first trains were very short haul. London-Folkestone; and the latter is now pretty much considered to be part of the former.
15:44<Nat_aS>but I supose a feeder line could be set up to trickle, and mitigate the way ships diliver cargo
15:44<xiong>Nah; I generally turn a profit on the municipal bus service. Horse carriages are cheap to run.
15:45<Nat_aS>a ship will load a ton of cargo all at once, if you send it directly to the factory, the factory will only produce once a year.
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15:45<xiong>You're thinking of ships only?
15:45<Nat_aS>but if you set up a feeder it will slowly distribute goods to the factory so it will produce constantly
15:45<Nat_aS>yeah
15:45<xiong>You need the loop trick.
15:45<Nat_aS>ships and trucks.
15:45<Nat_aS>loop?
15:46<xiong>I really should publish this onwiki. I'm sure I'm not the first to discover it but this is twice this weekend I'm talking about it.
15:47<andythenorth>Folkestone is not considered part of London ;)
15:47-!-kkb110_ [~kkb110@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
15:47<xiong>Simple: Build a very small loop of road enclosing a single truck stop joined to your main station; add a depot. Now order a single truck (in my case, horse wagon) to that stop only. To avoid notices, you need to order it twice to the stop and twice to nearest depot. Order it to transfer and wait for any full load.
15:48<Nat_aS>what does that do?
15:48<xiong>So the loop vehicle is frequently picking up cargo; since it transfers it out, it doesn't consume any. Station rating skyrockets and plenty of cargo is waiting for your rarely-appearing long-run vehicle.
15:49<Nat_aS>it also makes the station look busy visualy
15:49<Nat_aS>pretend the truck is for sorting cargo
15:49<Nat_aS>I was talking about the receiving end though.
15:49<xiong>It's not unrealistic for a train station or dock to have captive service.
15:49<xiong>"Receiving"? I don't follow.
15:50<xiong>At the far end, you just unload and get paid, right?
15:51<Nat_aS>when that rarely appearing long run vehicle reaches the factory, it will unload all the cargo at once and the factory will produce tons of goods/food/whatever for exactly a month, then stop because it has expended all it's resources and the next shipment wont show up till next year.
15:51<xiong>andythenorth, Evanston is not considered part of Chicago either. But the L goes there... and it's only a matter of civic pride that keeps it independent.
15:51<Nat_aS>so any trains trying to take goods to the markets will be empty most of the year.
15:51<andythenorth>UK perceptions of distance are quite different ;)
15:52<Nat_aS>that's what you get for living on a tiny island :P
15:52<xiong>Right, Nat_aS. So at that factory you have another loop, that captivates the production and holds it for the next pickup.
15:52<andythenorth>Folkestone might be considered by some non-UK people to be part of London, perhaps
15:52<Nat_aS>not really a loop, as much as a feeder.
15:52<andythenorth>in a similar way to the cliche that all UK residents know the royal family
15:52<xiong>Um, not to be contentious; but I don't call it a feeder. The loop vehicles don't go anywhere.
15:53<Nat_aS>don't put the dock near the factory, have a single truck haul the cargo from the dock to the factory
15:53<xiong>By "loop", I mean six road tiles. You can do it with fewer if you don't mind your horse carriages trying to turn around at the dead end.
15:53<Nat_aS>so instead of getting all the resources at once, it receives a slow trickle, which will raise station rating and ensure there are goods to ship out all year long.
15:53<xiong>I don't see the disadvantage to having all production in one month.
15:54<xiong>The loops boost station rating sufficiently.
15:54<xiong>Station rating is not dependent on delivery but on pickup.
15:54<Nat_aS>because the train delivering goods is useless most of the year.
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15:55<Nat_aS>and costs upkeep even if it's not moving.
15:55<xiong>Remember, you don't need two stations anyway. When you deliver with a transfer order, even if the cargo is accepted, it won't be consumed. So the loop can ration out cargo already in station.
15:55<Nat_aS>Hmm?
15:55<Nat_aS>oh
15:56<Nat_aS>transfer to truck, then truck deliver cargo back to same station?
15:56<xiong>Let's switch back to ES, since that's my primary application. Deliver a whole trainload of ES to the mine -- but with a transfer order. Now set a loop truck to pickup and drop, now depoting in between always. Use a slow truck.
15:57<xiong>One station only required.
15:57<Nat_aS>there should be a container lifter truck
15:57<Nat_aS>slow as hell, but minimal upkeep
15:57<Nat_aS>just for loop staitons
15:57<xiong>That truck will move 4 crates of ES each time around, which is more than is needed. But it's better than dumping all 32 crates and having nothing at all for months while the train goes to fetch more.
15:57<Nat_aS>it's only real use is looking cool driving around in loops
15:58<xiong>Um, there *is* a forklift.
15:58<Nat_aS>oh there is?
15:58<xiong>Not in 1850. But in... HEQS, I think.
15:58<xiong>And that would be the utterly realistic loop truck.
15:58<Nat_aS>I notice cargo haulers but no forklifts
15:59<xiong>Yah, eGRVTS has the horses.
15:59<Nat_aS>for passengers the equivalent is shuttlebuss.
15:59<Nat_aS>or Taxis
16:00<xiong>I think HEQS is forklifts.
16:01<xiong>There *is* a road set with London Black Cab.
16:02<xiong>But for pax, I set up a municipal service, 4 stops per town; the 5th is joined to the rail station.
16:02<Nat_aS>yeah
16:03<xiong>That's not quite the same thing; these are distinct stops. My definition of these cargo loops is, they always stop at a single stop repeatedly. Captive service.
16:03<Nat_aS>For passingers it is accomplished by a feeder service.
16:03<xiong>Right. Feeder vs loop.
16:03<xiong>At some industries, this is better upgraded to a rail shuttle. Again, captive service.
16:04<xiong>The shuttle has a mixed consist and is conditionally ordered only to unload when it has a mixed load. So you get the increase in production instead of wasting input cargo.
16:06<xiong>Um, don't "full load all cargo" on the shuttle -- or on any other train if using a NARS engine with regearing refits. Since then, the regearing "cargo" is never full.
16:07<xiong>Full load is the easy way to order the shuttle but what's required instead is an elaborate system of conditional orders to decide when to unload.
16:09<Nat_aS>Hmm, if you placed the deopt in the right place, it will look like the loop truck is taking cargo and loading it onto trains
16:10<Nat_aS>except it will also be taking cargo to the factory as well as from it
16:10<Nat_aS>:V
16:10<Nat_aS>maybe if you used refit orders to refit it from empty and full sprites.
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16:10<Nat_aS>in both cases it would still be loaded, but the change would be cosmetic.
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16:11<Nat_aS>no wait you can't refit at stations can you
16:11<Nat_aS>:c
16:11<xiong>I don't worry about it.
16:12<Nat_aS>i just like the diea of a little front end loader or forklift boosting my station raiting
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16:12<xiong>The loop trucks work. They work very well, to increase station rating, to build up a supply of cargo before long-haul service is established, and to ration scarce cargo delivered to local industry.
16:14<andythenorth>sounds like you're describing piglets
16:14<andythenorth>http://home.c2i.net/cecilieTT/misctric.htm#pyglet
16:14<xiong>They usually lose money... but not much. A single, 1-horse wagon costs $74/yr to run.
16:14<xiong>Right, andythenorth. I was sure that somebody must have described these already.
16:15<andythenorth>I disapprove of this trick for FIRS supplies, but nonetheless, that's what the HEQS forklift is provided for :P
16:15<andythenorth>'disapprove, but provide a tool for' :P
16:16<andythenorth>like providing clean syringes to drug addicts :P
16:16<Nat_aS>2..3 or more: if you can spare a railway station track: make a 'Hoglet' or 'Toglet' (Tog = Train in Norwegian!) a train piglet: a cheap engine with 1 wagon per resource; + 1 wagon for something the station does NOT have!
16:16<Nat_aS>Give the 'Hoglet' a sensible maintenance period, since it will stay in the same spot, just LOADing, 99% of the time. The ratings get to about 80%
16:16<Nat_aS>- 1 cheap engine + 3 wagons cost about the same as 3 trucks; but running cost is a bit lower.
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16:16<xiong>Why disapprove?
16:16<Nat_aS>so like a track switcher train
16:16<Nat_aS>awesome!
16:17<andythenorth>xiong: actually, reading what you posted earlier, put a line through 'disapprove'
16:17<xiong>Well, thanks.
16:18<xiong>I don't see another reasonable way to deliver ES/FS. Even a one-car train carries too much to dump all in one month.
16:19<andythenorth>I drop them to hubs, and then run road vehicles
16:19<andythenorth>I do find this single-tile technique odd though: http://wiki.openttd.org/FIRS#Single_Tile_Tactic
16:19<xiong>Well, I tried that. The loop truck is just the logical contraction of that concept.
16:21<xiong>Ah. Yes, that wiki page is exactly my loop concept. Just without a loop. Using horse-drawn wagons leads one to think in terms of loops!
16:21<Nat_aS>http://wiki.openttd.org/Image:No_fleet_needed.png airplanes can visit fishing grounds?
16:22<xiong>Helicopters.
16:23<xiong>But what you see there has no aircraft at all. The catchment is just big enough to include the fish.
16:23<Nat_aS>yes
16:23<Nat_aS>it just looks strange
16:23<Nat_aS>that helicopters can into fishing
16:25<Nat_aS>are there any good scenerios that use FIRS?
16:25<xiong>Um, that came about with offshore oil rigs.
16:25<Nat_aS>particularly jungle?
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16:26<Nat_aS>there was no way to decouple them?
16:26<xiong>Don't ask me; I just play.
16:26<andythenorth>xiong: there are some HEQS trams that may serve your loop needs too
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16:26<andythenorth>low cargo cap
16:27<andythenorth>@seen alberth
16:27<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: alberth was last seen in #openttd 6 hours, 54 minutes, and 24 seconds ago: <Alberth> some misc and some grf
16:27<andythenorth>oh
16:27<andythenorth>:(
16:27<andythenorth>nvm
16:27<xiong>andythenorth, In 1850 all I get are horse wagons. They're okay.
16:28<xiong>I like the 1-horse wagon for rationing ES/FS. 7mph; takes a month to go from truck stop to depot and back.
16:28<andythenorth>will it spoil your game if I tell you the tram intro dates? ;)
16:28<xiong>No, I have horse trams, too. But why?
16:29<xiong>These loop trucks go nowhere. I want them as slow and cheap as possible.
16:29<andythenorth>ah ok
16:29<xiong>The only improvement would be even smaller vehicles that only carried one crate at a time.
16:29<Nat_aS>like a forklift
16:29<Nat_aS>or front end loader for primary industries.
16:30<Nat_aS>it also provides eye candy
16:30<andythenorth>HEQS forklift isn't available until 1930s
16:30<xiong>Right. I can't wait until I have a game that plays well enough to go past 1900 and get into the later stuff.
16:30*andythenorth has invented something horrible
16:30<xiong>Or actually, I guess I can wait; since I've been playing for years now and still waiting.
16:30<andythenorth>invented / copied from jquery /s
16:32<Nat_aS>Hmm
16:33<Nat_aS>a dockworkers veichile for pre forklift
16:33<Nat_aS>a bunch of tiny 3 px tall men carrying barrels.
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16:45<Jogio>http://www.hs-merseburg.de/~nosske/EpocheII/fg/e2f_gwwv.html
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16:46<dragonhorseboy>sorry about asking in both rooms but...is there no list somewhere online for the egrvt vehicles?
16:46<@planetmaker>there's ingame :-)
16:46<@planetmaker>vehicles never expire. start in 2070. And you got all vehicles
16:47<frosch123>night
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16:47<dragonhorseboy>planetmaker and how about a copy for without the game? :)
16:47<Jogio>haha german burocraty has long tradion
16:48<dragonhorseboy>jogio not too surprised
16:48<Jogio>there was a rule which waggon to use when you transport elephants, camels and girafs :-)
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16:48<@planetmaker>dragonhorseboy, if the related forum thread has none, I don't know. And actually doubt there exists.
16:48<@Yexo>dragonhorseboy: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=33415 this topic lists the vehicles
16:48<@Yexo>not sure if all of them are in there though
17:05<dragonhorseboy>hm well looks like a bit of it might be a start....thanks tho
17:05<dragonhorseboy>going for now..have fun :p
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17:06<Wolf01>hello
17:06<@planetmaker>hi Wolf01
17:08<Jogio>hi
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17:49<xiong>Nat_aS, congratulations. You have introduced a truly upsetting idea: stevedores. Would you implement them as road vehicles?
17:49<xiong>Oh man. Now I want rickshaws and pedicabs.
17:49<Nat_aS>I already sugested that
17:49<Nat_aS>for an Antiquity Newgrif
17:50<xiong>Nothing antiquated about pedicabs. We have them right here in San Francisco, today.
17:50<Nat_aS>slaves, gold, frankincense, mirth, and silk as cargo types.
17:50<Nat_aS>Slave labor powered vehicles.
17:50<xiong>But now it's time for the grind. See you.
17:56<Nat_aS>Litters
17:56<Nat_aS>that's what I was trying to think of
17:57<Nat_aS>when slaves carry you around on a platform.
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18:06<Wolf01>'night
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19:19<Eddi|zuHause>i don't get that CETS compile error... it compiled fine locally, and i didn't change anything even remotely related...
19:22<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: NML bug, see #3744
19:25<Eddi|zuHause>aha...
19:27<Eddi|zuHause>unrelated point: it would be nice if the compile error ticket actually contained the last ~10 lines of the build.err.log, so i don't have to click through 20 layers to get to the actual error message, which may have moved or disappeared since the creation of the ticket
19:31<Eddi|zuHause>and i still miss an email-on-commit feature
19:32<+michi_cc>RSS feed not enough?
19:36<Eddi|zuHause>i don't have an RSS feed set up
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22:18<Nat_aS>hey the new industries Grif, are there any good scenerios for it?
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23:56<Pikka>apparently not
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---Logclosed Mon Feb 27 00:00:04 2012